Matthew Hussey: The Secret To Attracting True Love That Lasts

1. 0:00 – 1:39

   Intro

   1. MHMatthew Hussey0:00

      I know it all sounds kinda heady, but this stuff is real. There'll be people listening to this who says, "Ugh, does it all need to be so difficult? Can't you just be yourself?" And the answer is no, you shouldn't be someone you're not. But people define being themselves as holding onto all of the things that make them make bad decisions. That's not being yourself. That's, that's not healing.

   2. AAAli Abdaal0:23

      Matthew has many, many, many clips on YouTube and social media that have gone absolutely viral, and he's one of the world's most famous dating coaches. In particular, dating coaches for women. He's written a book called Get The Guy, which became a New York Times bestseller.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey0:36

      My friend said to me, "My dad goes to this guy, Tony Robbins, every year. He's doing the Excel center. Do you wanna come?" I couldn't believe that someone could command a room like that. And so that was this fusion of what I loved to learn about with a delivery that I was astounded by. At that point, I just thought, "This is, this is something I, I need to be close to somehow."

   4. AAAli Abdaal1:01

      And he makes videos on his YouTube channel with over two million subscribers, and also his podcast, giving people advice on their love lives and dating and relationships.

   5. MHMatthew Hussey1:07

      The health of your relationship isn't two-dimensional. It's not just, how many things have I done for my partner today? We lose our value in dating when we stop paying attention. The consequences of ignoring what I'm saying are a life of suffering.

   6. AAAli Abdaal1:28

      Just a very quick thing before we get started. If you have not yet subscribed to the podcast, either on YouTube or on your favorite podcast app of choice, then please do. It really helps us out a lot. I would love it if we, if we can just start with

2. 1:39 – 5:51

   Becoming a dating coach

   1. AAAli Abdaal1:39

      you- so you've been doing this, I guess, career, in inverted commas, as like a sort of dating relationship coach expert. You do videos, you've got courses, you've got retreats.

   2. MHMatthew Hussey1:49

      Mm.

   3. AAAli Abdaal1:50

      How did, how did, how did all this start, and, like, what's, I guess, been the trajectory of your career in this, in this over time? 'Cause I'd love to dig into-

   4. MHMatthew Hussey1:56

      Mm

   5. AAAli Abdaal1:56

      ... kind of the, the details.

   6. MHMatthew Hussey1:58

      I, what, where did I start? I, well, I, I was 11 years old, I think, round about 10 or 11 when I was rummaging through my dad's bookshelf, and he always, wherever we lived ... And we went through very different financial circumstances as a kid, but whether we lived somewhere lovely or not so lovely, it w- there was always a bookshelf. My dad was very interested in self-development, so he had How to Win Friends and Influence People on his bookshelf, and I one day picked it up and was hooked very quickly. I think I, I was a very shy kid, so the idea that you could learn how to be in the world in a way that would make more of an impact or make social situations less scary, uh, that was very, very compelling to me. And when I read How to Win Friends, Influence Pe- and Influence People, I thought I had discovered some sort of secret scroll that no one else knew about.

   7. AAAli Abdaal2:58

      Mm. [laughs]

   8. MHMatthew Hussey2:58

      I didn't realize it was a big book.

   9. AAAli Abdaal2:59

      Yeah.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey2:59

       Do you know what I mean? There was nothing that said, you know, bestseller on the title on it or anything. I just, I thought, "Wow, I've found something here that can really, really make a difference." And I used to go into school and sort of practice what I'd learned on teachers and, you know, like I, I was almost more comfortable actually doing it with adults than I was people my own age. Still couldn't talk to a girl at school.

   11. AAAli Abdaal3:25

       Yeah. Mm.

   12. MHMatthew Hussey3:25

       Uh, still terrified of that. But I s- I started to use it with adults, and I had a DJing, uh, uh, career when I was a teenager, um, that lasted for nearly a decade, and that was ... it was very useful in that. You know, I kn- well, I, I remember going to, to do sort of gigs for people my age but very quickly realizing that it was the parents that it was great to make relationships with. Um, you know, and, and I would go after the gig and hang out with the parents and talk to them. And so then I, I ended up going, I got dragged by a friend's father. I say I got dragged. He got dragged. My friend who, who was my age said to me, "My dad goes to this guy, Tony Robbins, every year."

   13. AAAli Abdaal4:13

       Mm.

   14. MHMatthew Hussey4:13

       Um, "He's play- he's doing the Excel center. M- I have to go. Do you wanna come? I have a s- I have a ticket to bring a friend." And he, what he didn't know is that I'd already read Tony Robbins' book-

   15. AAAli Abdaal4:27

       Yeah

   16. MHMatthew Hussey4:27

       ... by that a- I think I was about 14 at the time. I'd already read his book. I'd already read How to Win Friends and Influence People. I'd already b- been on my own little self-development journey in private. And so the opportunity to go was actually wildly exci- more exciting than I let on-

   17. AAAli Abdaal4:43

       Yeah

   18. MHMatthew Hussey4:43

       ... to him. And I went, and it became the marriage of all of this content that was really exciting to me and suddenly a l- an, an ability in delivery that I had never seen before. I hadn't seen it in any of my teachers at school. I hadn't seen it a- anywhere else in life. I, I just thought, I couldn't believe that someone could command a room like that. And, and so that then became like, it w- that was this fusion of what I loved to learn about with a, a delivery that I was astounded by. And that sort of set me on a path. I won't say at that point I knew what I wanted to do. At that point, I just thought, "This is a, this is something I, I need to be close to somehow," uh, which has always been a theme of my life. I always think if you like something, you just don't worry about what that means exactly.

   19. AAAli Abdaal5:43

       Yeah.

   20. MHMatthew Hussey5:43

       Just find a way to get close to it somehow. And, and that's where it started, um, where-

   21. AAAli Abdaal5:50

       What was-

   22. MHMatthew Hussey5:50

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal5:50

       So

3. 5:51 – 13:13

   Your breakthrough at the Tony Robbins event

   1. AAAli Abdaal5:51

      everyone I've ever met who's been, been to a Tony Robbins event has-

   2. MHMatthew Hussey5:54

      Mm

   3. AAAli Abdaal5:54

      ... just, like, says that, "Oh, my God," like seeing it in real life is just a completely different experience to-

   4. MHMatthew Hussey5:59

      Yeah

   5. AAAli Abdaal5:59

      ... watching it on TV or on DVD tape or whatever it was back in the day. What was that experience like for you when, when you were 14?

   6. MHMatthew Hussey6:07

      It, it was genuinely electrifying. I remember just... I have such good memories of that 'cause I felt like we were... There was actually two friends he brought, me and this other guy, and the three of us just sat there. We didn't sit with his dad. Y- with the three of us just got to sit there, and we had the greatest time. And I remember just sort of that feeling of, oh, people just dance here, but there's no, no one's judging anyone else. We're just... We can just have a dance-

   7. AAAli Abdaal6:36

      Mm

   8. MHMatthew Hussey6:36

      ... and be silly. Uh, you know, oh, there's people crying here, but no one's sort of judging the fact that you're crying or going through something. It was a very, it was a very, very interesting environment, and it was, and it was just, you know, Tony is unbelievable at what he does. And to, to be in the crowd as a recip- You know what's, you know what's cool? I, I think the more you get involved in coaching yourself or speaking or whatever, the harder it becomes to be a, just a truly vulnerable and active participant in somebody else's show.

   9. AAAli Abdaal7:12

      Right. Yeah.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey7:13

       A- and that's a shame, and, and it shouldn't be that way, and, and I fight against that, and I, I try to just go and live as a... Like really experience something as, as Matthew, not as someone who, in his own life, then works with people. Because I think once you, once you develop that skin, it's sort of over for you. The, the, the learning, the growth, the vulnerability is over for you, and that's the beginning of just, just stagnation. So but back then, I didn't have anything to prove to anyone. I didn't have to seem like I had it all together in any way, shape, or form. And, and so just, I just got to, to be a participant.

   11. AAAli Abdaal7:51

       Right.

   12. MHMatthew Hussey7:51

       And, uh, that was lovely.

   13. AAAli Abdaal7:52

       Oh, amazing. Yeah, I re- I really wanna go to a Tony Robbins event at some point. Um, his team invited us to something, but it was virtual, and we thought, "Oh, you know, the real-life thing could be interesting." Um-

   14. MHMatthew Hussey8:01

       You should-

   15. AAAli Abdaal8:01

       One day, yeah

   16. MHMatthew Hussey8:01

       ... you should go-

   17. AAAli Abdaal8:02

       Yeah

   18. MHMatthew Hussey8:02

       ... 'cause it's, it's... There's something... Look, what... You know, obviously anyone could think what they like, uh, about the content, how useful it is to them. Everyone has to make their own mind up. But I... There is something to be learned for everyone in being in a room like that and, and to even just to learn about impact or persuasion or making a case or how to, how to public speak even. You know, how to, how to, how to have that kind of impact on a room full of people. I don't... Everyone can learn. Uh, the idea that anyone can go into a room like that and just go, "There's nothing for me here," I don't understand that mindset because you kind of... I remember going back years later when I was doing a lot of public speaking, and I remember going and saying to myself, "Okay, I'm go- this time I'm gonna go, and I'm just gonna go from the perspective of learning everything I can from this human being in terms of their ability to connect with an audience."

   19. AAAli Abdaal9:04

       Yeah.

   20. MHMatthew Hussey9:05

       And, and I really... I went with that lens, and it was amazing. I, you know, I, I try... I remember there were moments where I tried to... Hang on. What was I at the time? Maybe I was 20, 20, 21. 19 maybe. I, but I remember trying to get as close to the stage as possible 'cause I just wanted to see w- you know, what does he have on the stage? 'Cause I knew at that time, I was already public speaking, and, and I was like, "What do I need on the stage? How many notes am I supposed to have? What does... You know, what does mastery look like in terms of how many times you look back at your notes or whatever?" And I just remember getting as close to the stage as possible to try and see, "Does he have notes? Does he have a monitor? What does he use?" And that part fascinated me as much as any other. But that's probably me geeking out from a public speaking perspective.

   21. AAAli Abdaal9:50

       Yeah. Absolutely. [laughs]

   22. MHMatthew Hussey9:50

       I... Most people won't be interested in that.

   23. AAAli Abdaal9:52

       So what happened after, after the event?

   24. MHMatthew Hussey9:56

       I, I went... I was at school, and my, uh, you know, my kind of ambitions... I thought I was gonna be, uh, involved in real estate somehow because my, my father was involved in real estate. So I ended up going to, to university to study real estate.

   25. AAAli Abdaal10:13

       Oh, is that a thing? [laughs] Nice.

   26. MHMatthew Hussey10:14

       They had a-

   27. AAAli Abdaal10:15

       Yeah

   28. MHMatthew Hussey10:15

       ... course. I think I was in year two of university, and CB Richard Ellis, who, um, are the, one of the big property companies in the world, came round to all of the universities and said, "We're looking for five people to go to China and work for us." And I ended up winning one of those five spaces and going to China, which was... The adventure was extraordinary. The part where I sat in the office in Shanghai and, and sort of waited for the day to finish, I just realized, "Oh, I don't know if this is me. I don't know if commercial real estate is my thing." I thought maybe it was, and then I blew... Short sto- long story short, I blew an interview at the end of my-

   29. AAAli Abdaal10:55

       Right

   30. MHMatthew Hussey10:55

       ... university career. Like really blew it badly. That was, like, my shot at a really great job in real estate, and when I blew that interview, it made m-, it w- I was able to not ev- I didn't even have to be brave. I was like, "Well, they t- the opportunity of me doing something here has been taken away from me, so I might as well go and start my own thing or go and try coaching, try and public speak more."
4. 13:13 – 19:59

   Getting into public speaking

   1. MHMatthew Hussey13:13

      At, I think I was about 17, 16, 17 at the time. I went to Dale Carnegie's offices in London. I remember going to one of their free events and just being fa- you know, I was so into the book, and when I heard there was like a free event in London for Dale Carnegie, I was like, "I'm, I'm gonna go." Which is why I always tell people, I'm like, I, I was exci- you know, this wasn't me at a certain point who went, "I wanna go and sell courses."

   2. AAAli Abdaal13:38

      Yeah.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey13:38

      "I wanna go and..." For me, I was my, I, that was me. I was the guy in the chair.

   4. AAAli Abdaal13:43

      This was your, this was your jam, yeah. [laughs]

   5. MHMatthew Hussey13:44

      Yeah. It was my, it was what I was excited about.

   6. AAAli Abdaal13:46

      Yeah.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey13:46

      So I was just excited to learn. And I went to one of these free, uh, events, and I was... At the time, it's not that... The event was probably great, but I had come off the back of like seeing Tony Robbins live.

   8. AAAli Abdaal14:02

      Yeah. [laughs]

   9. MHMatthew Hussey14:02

      And I was like, "Oh." It was so, sort of deflating for me. And I remember going to their offices in London and asking them for a job, basically.

   10. AAAli Abdaal14:13

       Okay.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey14:13

       And the guy was very diplomatic, uh, who, he was sort of the, I think he was the MD there. And he said, "Well, you know, we, um, you know, we, we could, you know, have you come here and work to become a speaker, but it would be a long, long path." And he, he used the phrase, "I think we would just slow you down. You're a man on a mission, and I think we would slow you down."

   12. AAAli Abdaal14:35

       Oh, yeah.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey14:35

       Which was very, very Dale Carnegie of him.

   14. AAAli Abdaal14:38

       Yeah.

   15. MHMatthew Hussey14:38

       He knew what he was doing. And I, in my head, I didn't hear a rejection. Uh, I didn't hear someone saying, "You're way too young to be involved with us, and you've got nothing to offer us right now." I just heard, "Yeah, he's right. They would slow me down." And so I left and, um, and continued on my path. But there was a guy in London who was doing men's workshops, and he needed help. [laughs]

   16. AAAli Abdaal15:03

       Okay.

   17. MHMatthew Hussey15:03

       And that was useful for me because around, I think I was 18 at the time, he... I went to him and I was like, "Look, you-- I'll come and just help you set up the event. I'll help you just... If I can even just do a little warm-up for you-"

   18. AAAli Abdaal15:20

       Yeah

   19. MHMatthew Hussey15:20

       ... "or whatever. I'll do whatever you want." It was... You know, I always imagine... I'm not making any comparison here, but you know, like, when I read stories about The Beatles, I, I read like they just went touring around these tiny venues and would play and play and play at all these small, small, small events, and that was really what made them so seasoned when later on they had all of this, uh, you know, fame. For me, I was really, really... I count myself so lucky that at that age I found a way that was very, very low stakes-

   20. AAAli Abdaal15:56

       Yeah

   21. MHMatthew Hussey15:57

       ... to go and cut my teeth on public speaking.

   22. AAAli Abdaal16:00

       Mm.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey16:00

       And so there would just be, you know, four or five guys sat around. And at a very young age, I sort of started being given what I saw as airtime.

   24. AAAli Abdaal16:10

       Yeah.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey16:11

       You know, it was, uh... And again, it was probably that the people that were already working there just wanted a break. They wanted to go on lunch, and they were like, "If this, if this young dude wants to get up and talk for an hour, that gives us time to go and chill." So that was what I started to do.

   26. AAAli Abdaal16:27

       So there's, there's a few, a few reflections on that. So that's, that's so interesting 'cause, I mean, there's a lot of, um, young people in my... Actually, a, a lot of people in my audience who are super into, like, personal development and stuff.

   27. MHMatthew Hussey16:38

       Mm.

   28. AAAli Abdaal16:38

       Like, that's the whole arc of my, my YouTube channel, essentially. And I always get emails from people who are teenagers being like, "Hey, I've, I've just read, uh, you know, 'The Magic of Thinking Big,' or 'How to Win Friends & Influence People,' or any one of the hundred different bestselling, uh, personal development books." And yet the, the... I guess for you, you, you had that interest, and you took the next step of being like, "Let me actually go to some of these events. Let me cold email the people who run these events and, like, volunteer my services for no money to just try and get some more experience there."

   29. MHMatthew Hussey17:09

       Yeah. I, like, I don't think I thought of this, uh, at the time consciously.

   30. AAAli Abdaal17:16

       Mm.
5. 19:59 – 32:31

   Stealing like an artist, fears and taking risks

   1. AAAli Abdaal19:59

      so you're sort of 18, 19 years old. You cold email this guy who's running workshops for men, and he's like, "All right, cool, you can be on stage for an hour."

   2. MHMatthew Hussey20:08

      Yeah.

   3. AAAli Abdaal20:08

      Or whatever. Like, what, what kind of stuff are you talking about-

   4. MHMatthew Hussey20:10

      [laughs]

   5. AAAli Abdaal20:11

      ... as an 18, 19-year-old? [laughs]

   6. MHMatthew Hussey20:12

      Well, I, I was probably at the time, I... parroting what I had read and heard from other people and filtering it through this kind of, you know, dating centric lens that to some people hearing it who hadn't done my reading felt original or felt like it was sort of groundbreaking, but I was, uh, you know, borrowing or stealing from all these d- sort of influences that I had read about. And, and, uh, you know, I, I think one of the biggest things I talked about, two, two things I talked about a lot, one was the anxiety of the approach.

   7. AAAli Abdaal20:55

      Yeah.

   8. MHMatthew Hussey20:55

      And the other was the deeper confidence that underpins, um, us feeling like it's not that the world has crashed down if it goes wrong.

   9. AAAli Abdaal21:06

      Mm.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey21:08

       To say that I had figured those things out would've been a lie.

   11. AAAli Abdaal21:12

       Yeah.

   12. MHMatthew Hussey21:13

       But the one thing at the time, the one bit of credibility I had, was that I was doing what I was asking them to do. That, uh, that getting over your fear and actually doing the thing, whether it was in public speaking or whether it was in approaching a girl at the time, I really was living that. So I felt, I always felt like, well, as long as I'm one step ahead-

   13. AAAli Abdaal21:35

       Yeah

   14. MHMatthew Hussey21:36

       ... I can always give you something. Um, but I, you know, like I said, at the time I was, I was exploring all these worlds myself. I didn't realize how many... You know, when I look back now, I sort of cringe at how much I thought I knew.

   15. AAAli Abdaal21:52

       Yeah. [laughs]

   16. MHMatthew Hussey21:52

       I, I... It's very cringe-worthy, in fact. But, you know, I, all the later problems would, would come in my 20s when I realized I hadn't figured out any-

   17. AAAli Abdaal22:00

       Yeah

   18. MHMatthew Hussey22:00

       ... of my stuff yet, and there was all this processing I had to do of, of my own life. But, but the, the taking a risk part, I felt like I can do... Someone could be 40 years old, and if they're not taking a risk that I'm taking, then I, I can at least-

   19. AAAli Abdaal22:16

       Yeah

   20. MHMatthew Hussey22:16

       ... help them take that risk if nothing else. I might not be able to help them get over their deeper issues, but if I can get them over the ledge of this thing that they've never done, that will be progress for them. And it, and it was. At the time it was.

   21. AAAli Abdaal22:28

       Just a quick little break before we get right back to the episode, and that's to let you know that this episode is very kindly brought to you by Shortform. Shortform is the world's best service for reading summaries of books, but it's more than just book summaries. What Shortform does is it basically creates a sort of study guide for tons and tons of different nonfiction books from all sorts of genres, from self-help and personal development to money and history and philosophy. It's just got loads of really interesting books, and they summarize them firstly with a cool one-page summary, but then they also have chapter-by-chapter outlines of each book. And in between the chapter summaries, they also have kind of interactive exercise sections where you can take the insights from the book and actually apply them to your life. And the other cool thing about Shortform is that if, for example, an author says something that is a little bit dodgy or that has been debunked or kind of disagreed with with another author, then the Shortform team will write a note saying that, "Hey, you know, this person said this thing about this topic, but actually that has been debunked by this other person," and they'll bring in another source. And so it's not just a way of getting summaries of books. It's also a way of expanding your understanding of the genre as a whole. For example, one summary I read on Shortform recently is a summary of Superfans by my friend Pat Flynn. Now, I read Superfans ages ago, like years ago when it first came out. This was before I knew Pat personally, and it was really great as a guide on how to kind of build an audience that knows, likes, and trusts you. But it's been a while since I read the book, and I didn't wanna read the whole book in its entirety. Sorry, Pat. And so I revisited the insights from Shortform and got a lot of value out of that as well. But I found it super helpful to look at the Shortform summary to revisit some of the ideas in the book, and this kind of tends to be how I use Shortform. Either I use it as a way of deciding whether I wanna read a book if it's new to me, or I use it as a way of revisiting ideas from books I've already read. So if any of that sounds up your street and you too would like to try out the world's best service for summarizing books, then head over to shortform.com/deepdive, and firstly, that will give you a completely free five-day trial where you can try it out and see if you like it, and it will also give you 20% off the annual premium subscription, which is the thing that I personally subscribe to. So thank you so much, Shortform, for sponsoring this episode. When I first started teaching my, um, part-time YouTuber academy, just sort of teaching people how to do YouTube, I was so surprised that, like, 95% of our students are older than I am and were having issues with confidence and putting themselves out there on camera.

   22. MHMatthew Hussey24:38

       Yeah.

   23. AAAli Abdaal24:38

       And initially I had so much imposter syndrome, like what the hell could I possibly hope to teach a 45-year-old executive at McKinsey or something like that? I was like, "Oh, this person struggles to put themself [laughs] out in front of a camera. I've been doing this for years. Okay, I can, I can teach something."

   24. MHMatthew Hussey24:49

       Yeah.

   25. AAAli Abdaal24:49

       And it felt very much this, this weird, weird sense of, damn, like, real adults actually struggle with these things as well.

   26. MHMatthew Hussey24:56

       Yeah.

   27. AAAli Abdaal24:56

       I don't know if you had that kind of experience at all.

   28. MHMatthew Hussey24:58

       No, I... You know what's funny is I now look at both of our arguments there and I'm like, yeah, but maybe they were, like, maybe they've just always been afraid. But also The older you get, the more you develop new fears. Mm. The more you have sort of things to lose that you didn't have when, to lose when you were 21 or... I, I had to go in, in a helicopter recently, which I say not as any kind of a humblebrag. I didn't wanna go. I didn't, I, I don't... I, I was with a group of people that really wanted to have this experience, and I'm not... I, I had a bad experience in a plane that, uh, a couple of years back that gave me a sort of, a bit of a fear of flying. I, I can't... It's not a fear I'm able to indulge because I have to go- Yeah [laughs] ... I have to fly all the time. But I do not enjoy flying the way I used to. Um, it give, it makes me anxious, like takeoff and landing and turbulence and all of that. And, uh, and I had to, you know, that was with a group of friends who really wanted to do this helicopter experience. And I, I said yes 'cause I was like, "I don't wanna be the guy that stops everyone from doing something fun on a trip that I'm part of. I'm just gonna go along with it." But I can tell you now that 21-year-old me wouldn't have had a problem with that at all. Mm. It would've been fine. It would've been like, "Yeah, let's do that. That sounds great." I'm now 35, and, um, it's not such a enjoyable experience for me, or I get anxiety that I didn't have before. I, I, it, that makes me just... Y- you know, when you're dealing with older people, you, what you don't know is what they've encountered in their lives. When I was, you know, 25 and working with a woman who was 50 and getting into dating again after a 20-year marriage had fallen apart, my saying, "Oh, you just have to get over your fear by doing this and this and this," it's ... I may be right- Mm ... but I don't understand what she's been through. I don't understand what it's like to have been out of the dating game for 20 years and that everything changed in that time and that, you know, she's starting, truly starting again at an, and at an age that she can't relate to dating at. Yeah. 'Cause the last time she was dating she was 30. And, you know, so, so you kind of, you can know something but not know. You, you know, you may have been in the same... I, I'm guessing that there may have been situations where you might have been working with someone who was afraid to get on camera. But if they're a 45-year-old who's led a whole life and developed many deep connections in their life and they've g- had a, a, an image that's been cultivated over 25 years of adult life and a career where everyone sees them in a certain way, it's much har- the fear of, like, making a video- Yeah ... and putting it out there in the public is a very different thing for someone like that than it is for a, a 25-year-old whose identity has, is five years old in terms of their adult career identity, or seven if you count university. So, you know, I, I, I feel like those are some of the things that you don't consider at a certain age, even when you're saying the right things. Like I did a... I remember when I first moved to Beverly Hills, uh, not to Beverly Hills, to LA, I, I remember having this thought that it would be fun to film a video in Beverly Hills. I thought it was so cool. I was like, "I just got to LA. I'm gonna do a video in front of the Beverly Hills sign." And I went over there and I shot this video, and there was this guy who was watching me the whole time, and it made me a bit self-conscious when I was filming the video. It's always that funny thing, isn't it? You can make a video for hundreds of thousands or millions of people, and yet someone's actually watching you film it- Yeah ... and you're like, "Ugh." It's pretty weird, yeah. [laughs] A person. Yeah. That guy came up to me at the end of this video, and the video, by the way, was the three tips to, like, overcoming heartbreak, something like that. Yeah. This guy came up to me at the end of the video and he goes, "You've never been heartbroken, have you?" And at the time I was ano- I was, like, annoyed. Yeah. You know, when someone feels like someone's caught you out. Deep down they're like- Yeah ... needling at something. Yeah. And I was like, "How dare he?" Yeah. You know? "I'm here making my video and doing... He doesn't know me." Mm. And the truth was he sensed so- he knew something. He knew from the way I was talking that I had not truly had my heart broken. Mm. He could sense that. And so that was where that comment came from for him. And it, even, even though I was like, had this righteous indignation, he was right. Mm. Now, I've since corrected that. I, I have, uh, corrected that hole in my- Experienced heartbreak ... resume. Excellent. [laughs] But at the time, uh, I hadn't. Yeah. Not really. I'd experienced what I thought was heartbreak, but there's heartbreak and there's heartbreak, and anyone who's been truly heartbroken knows the difference and knows that making a video that's called The Three Tips- Mm ... to Getting Over Heartbreak is sort of absurd in its, in its very premise. Right. 'Cause going, when you're in heartbreak, you're not gonna get out of it with three tips. Right. Yeah. You are a walking zombie- Mm ... who i- s- appears numb on the outside, but on the inside feels like you're dying. And unless you've been through it, you don't know how to truly acknowledge that for somebody else. And I think that for young content creators, and I count myself still among them, we all have to be really careful, and the younger you are, the more careful you have to be, that you never fall into the trap of, of trying to know it all or pretending that you know it all, and b- ha- making that one of your masks. I did it. I fell into that trap. When I was starting out, I really tried to appear like there was no question I couldn't answer. Mm. And it, and it was a weakness because- It's not true. Smarter, wiser people can smell it.

   29. AAAli Abdaal31:30

       Yeah.

   30. MHMatthew Hussey31:31

       And you'll lose opportunities because of it. And I said to someone I, I care about and love very much whose, whose kind of go-to reflexive phrase is, "Yeah, I know." You know when you're talking to someone and halfway through the sentence before you've even finished they go, "Yeah, I know." It's the worst phrase in the world.
6. 32:31 – 40:49

   Rewriting myths about dating & the handkerchief metaphor

   1. AAAli Abdaal32:31

      young Matthew, you're like 19 doing these workshops where you're kind of helping people overcome approach anxiety and, and things like that. What happens next in the sort of public speaking arc?

   2. MHMatthew Hussey32:42

      I, I started doing small events for women, um, because I, I had this thought that, well, it'd be nice to do something out of the men's area. I was looking for a change, and I was, I think ... I was just, I was just leaving university. And in that s- that crossroads of am I now gonna go and work for a company or am I gonna do my own thing? And I started, uh, I started just putting-- I put together a little website and was like, "Well, maybe we'll just do some small stuff for women." I actually, you know what I did in the beginning? I just said, "If you email me a question, I'll answer it." Like, if you write in... I had a website-

   3. AAAli Abdaal33:34

      Okay

   4. MHMatthew Hussey33:34

      ... and it was, it was for women, and I just said, "If you email me a question I'll, I'll answer it." And that, for me, was like research.

   5. AAAli Abdaal33:43

      Yeah.

   6. MHMatthew Hussey33:43

      Like, what, what problems are people having in this area?

   7. AAAli Abdaal33:47

      Okay. And-

   8. MHMatthew Hussey33:47

      Do I know anything that can help?

   9. AAAli Abdaal33:49

      How, how did you go straight for-- like, from I'm helping men do approach anxiety to I'm now gonna give dating advice to women? That, that seems like a chasm that I wouldn't think of crossing.

   10. MHMatthew Hussey34:00

       Well, I'd originally... I thought... Here, here's what it was. I read a book, a very well-known book for women at the time.

   11. AAAli Abdaal34:11

       Which one?

   12. MHMatthew Hussey34:12

       It was called The Rules.

   13. AAAli Abdaal34:13

       Oh. Yeah, I read that a couple years ago. It's super interesting. [laughs]

   14. MHMatthew Hussey34:17

       Very interesting.

   15. AAAli Abdaal34:18

       Yeah.

   16. MHMatthew Hussey34:18

       And I, you know, I'm... I don't... At the time there was some- there was something in there that I read and I went, "That's not true for me." You know, there was a, there was a particular sentence or a chapter, I can't remember, but it basically said, "If a guy isn't coming over to you, then he's, he's not interested." And, uh, um, they'll forgive me if I've m- misphrased that, but I... It got... That was the kind of tone of it. And I, I remember thinking, "Everything about my life has said that the opposite is true."

   17. AAAli Abdaal34:57

       Yeah.

   18. MHMatthew Hussey34:58

       The more interested I am-

   19. AAAli Abdaal35:00

       Yeah, the less likely he'll approach.

   20. MHMatthew Hussey35:01

       [laughs]

   21. AAAli Abdaal35:01

       Yeah, 100%.

   22. MHMatthew Hussey35:02

       Exactly.

   23. AAAli Abdaal35:02

       I remember, I remember reading that kind of stuff and thinking, "Ugh, this is-

   24. MHMatthew Hussey35:05

       I just thought-

   25. AAAli Abdaal35:05

       ... specifically not applicable here."

   26. MHMatthew Hussey35:06

       Wow, this is... You know, I literally have spent my life doing the opposite of that. And that kind of sparked something in me because I thought, "I wonder how many women are only ever meeting the loudest guy in the room."

   27. AAAli Abdaal35:24

       Yeah, the one with the, with the confidence to approach them, whereas the other 90% of dudes are just like looking from afar and-

   28. MHMatthew Hussey35:29

       Are being written off-

   29. AAAli Abdaal35:31

       Yeah, yeah

   30. MHMatthew Hussey35:31

       ... either as not interested-
7. 40:49 – 44:33

   Modern day handkerchiefs

   1. MHMatthew Hussey40:49

      being, they were choosing instead of being chosen, which was very cool.

   2. AAAli Abdaal40:52

      So what are the, what are the modern-day handkerchiefs, just on that, on that topic? [laughs]

   3. MHMatthew Hussey40:56

      I... So there was a, a book that talked about the, the idea that likability was affected by our ability to do someone a favor. Um, now what the study showed was n- not the obvious, that if we do someone a favor they'll like us more.

   4. AAAli Abdaal41:16

      Mm.

   5. MHMatthew Hussey41:17

      Is that if we do someone a favor, we like them more.

   6. AAAli Abdaal41:21

      Oh, interesting.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey41:21

      As long as the favor's not onerous. It can't be something difficult, but if we're able to do a small act, a small favor for somebody-

   8. AAAli Abdaal41:28

      Yeah

   9. MHMatthew Hussey41:28

      ... we actually like them more. And I s- started looking at that in the context of the handkerchief, and I thought that sort of feels like it applies there. Especially it's almost feels more potent in the direction of man to woman because w- a lot of guys have this sort of, you know, "I wanna be needed. I wanna feel like I'm able to do something for a woman. I wanna feel necessary," which is a big problem right now in dating 'cause men are feeling less and less necessary. Uh, and, you know, everyone's trying to figure out their place right now in the world, which is, I find really fascinating. Uh, the, the g- the kind of rules are being rewritten. But what I saw as with the handkerchief is, oh, a guy has an opportunity to kind of perform a small favor, which is giving the handkerchief back. So then I said, "Well, what's an equivalent of, of..." Then there's all sorts of little ways you can ask for a favor. You could say, "Excuse me, would you just watch my jacket for a second while I use the restroom?" Which could be done in a coffee shop in the daytime. "I just need to use the restroom. Will you watch my jacket for a second?" Um, or, you know, I always like the start of the phrase being, "I could..." You know, "Could I get your help with something?" Or, "I could really use your help with something. Could you watch my jacket for a second while I go to the bathroom? Do you know anywhere good around here for X? What did you order? That looks really good." I, you know, uh, it... These are all very small things, but they give someone the opportunity to do a small act of service for us. What I also like about it is it breaks the ice in a way that doesn't feel like breaking the ice. So when you come back from the bathroom and you say, "Thanks so much for, for watching my jacket," if you then say, "How's your day going anyway?" Um, or, you know, "Looks like that, that book looks really interesting," or whatever, you feel like you're already starting at 30 mile an hour.

   10. AAAli Abdaal43:24

       Yeah.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey43:25

       Versus if you were just there and you turned to someone and went, "How's your day going?"

   12. AAAli Abdaal43:28

       Yeah. That's a bit weird. [laughs]

   13. MHMatthew Hussey43:30

       Is it? Now, you can do it, but- It's m- m- a lot of people feel like they need that, like, 30 miles an hour-

   14. AAAli Abdaal43:38

       Mm

   15. MHMatthew Hussey43:38

       ... to get going. So that became my version for people of dropping the handkerchief, is ask a very small and easy favor of someone, and then allow that to be the bridge to an actual conversation.

   16. AAAli Abdaal43:51

       Nice. Yeah, that, I guess, is fairly or s- somewhat similar to the whole, uh, indirect openers that guys will often use around, like, "Hey, you know, can, can you tell me where the nearest coffee shop is?" Or something-

   17. MHMatthew Hussey44:01

       Right

   18. AAAli Abdaal44:01

       ... like that. "I'm, oh, I'm new here." Like, "Oh, where you from?" It's, like, it's just a way of prompting a conversation in a way-

   19. MHMatthew Hussey44:06

       Exactly

   20. AAAli Abdaal44:06

       ... that's not something like, "Hi, I thought you were pretty and I wanted to talk to you."

   21. MHMatthew Hussey44:10

       100%.

   22. AAAli Abdaal44:10

       Which takes a large amount of, well, almost too much confidence [laughs] for most guys.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey44:14

       Uh, uh, yes, and, you know, there's how you, that can make someone else feel awkward, and there's all sorts of things. I, I think for anyone else, for anyone out there, man or woman, one of the things if, if this is the kind of content you're interested in, that I have found most helpful in my life is something I call

8. 44:33 – 53:06

   Two hit theory

   1. MHMatthew Hussey44:33

      two hit theory.

   2. AAAli Abdaal44:34

      Mm.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey44:35

      Which is the idea that w- how ... When you go out into any environment, you have to be someone who's easy to talk to. You ... Focusing on approachability is as important as focusing on how to approach.

   4. AAAli Abdaal44:54

      Hmm.

   5. MHMatthew Hussey44:55

      And what a lot of us do is we go into an environment, we wait until we see someone that we're attracted to, and then we obsess over what the hell we would say-

   6. AAAli Abdaal45:07

      Yeah

   7. MHMatthew Hussey45:07

      ... if we tried to talk to that person. And now we spend the whole time that we're there becoming more and more nervous as the stakes get higher and higher.

   8. AAAli Abdaal45:14

      Yeah.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey45:14

      And we start to imagine how wonderful this person is that we think is attractive, and, uh, how lucky the person is that gets them, and all the thing, the qualities about them that we would n- admire if we got to know them. They become something. They become this projection that is so removed from what we actually know about them right now-

   10. AAAli Abdaal45:35

       Yeah

   11. MHMatthew Hussey45:35

       ... which is we just saw an attractive person. [laughs] That's it. Two hit theory is when you go into a room, the first hit, as it were, is small interactions with people. It might literally be like, "That looks really good," because someone ordered a plate of food and you're like, "That looks great." That's a, that's a hit. That's an interaction. It might be, um, walking up to the bar or the counter and someone's next to you, and you're like, "Hey, how's it going?" Like a m- moment. You don't ... Remove the intention. There's no intention. Doesn't need to go anywhere, doesn't need to be a conversation, nothing. Just a moment. And you do that with more people than you normally would. You have these little hits. Now, what to me is really, really powerful about this, it's such an understated thing. But what's really powerful about it is most people when they go to any environment, they're either alone or they're with one or two friends.

   12. AAAli Abdaal46:39

       Yeah.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey46:39

       Outside of those one or two friends, who's the person they're most likely to talk to at some point during the evening, at some point during that event? They're gonna talk to the, the most approachable person. They're gonna talk to the person they've already had some small interaction with that became a kind of green light for a natural or organic exchange.

   14. AAAli Abdaal47:06

       Yep.

   15. MHMatthew Hussey47:08

       Y- if you've had the natural or organic exchange with someone, it's weird to say, but you're their third-best friend in the room.

   16. AAAli Abdaal47:15

       Yep. [laughs]

   17. MHMatthew Hussey47:17

       And if you go around being the third-best friend of everybody who came with two people just because you are a little bit more approachable than everybody else, then it's y- you're gonna find that, A, some interactions just gravitate back to you an hour later or two hours later. B, even if you're the one who initiates-

   18. AAAli Abdaal47:40

       Mm

   19. MHMatthew Hussey47:40

       ... you already have that initial interaction to go by.

   20. AAAli Abdaal47:45

       Yep.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey47:46

       And the fact that that initial interaction didn't come with you ... Like, there's always something about someone coming over to you and talking to you for the first time, and then sort of standing there and facing you as they're talking to you, and you're almost unable to process whether you find them attractive or whether you, uh, want, are interested in what they have to say because you're so busy worrying about are they ever gonna leave.

   22. AAAli Abdaal48:10

       Yeah.

   23. MHMatthew Hussey48:11

       So when someone does this k- two hit theory, that, that first thing, that first interaction you have with people helps them also. They've already recognized that you're not the kind of person that needs them.

   24. AAAli Abdaal48:27

       Yep.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey48:29

       You left the first time, so now when you speak to someone, it-

   26. AAAli Abdaal48:35

       Yeah

   27. MHMatthew Hussey48:35

       ... the stakes feel much lower for someone.

   28. AAAli Abdaal48:36

       Yeah, there's this, like, safety as well. Like, you don't feel as if ... Yeah, they're, they're just not gonna leave. They're just gonna invade your space-

   29. MHMatthew Hussey48:41

       Oh, God. Watch this now

   30. AAAli Abdaal48:42

       ... and like, yeah.
9. 53:06 – 1:02:55

   Stages of deep and lasting attraction

   1. MHMatthew Hussey53:06

      to deep and lasting attraction. You have chemistry, um, perceived value, perceived challenge, and connection. The reason I like this model is because when you look at this, you can usually see, you can sort of self-diagnose where something may be going wrong.

   2. AAAli Abdaal53:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MHMatthew Hussey53:38

      Chemistry is interesting because there's certain, there's a certain intangible there a- and an unknown there, and not-- we certainly can't control all of it, but we can control some of it. You know, with the way, the way that we look, how well we take care of ourselves, the way we move, importantly, is a big factor in chemistry, um, which is why you can sometimes see someone in photos and think they're really attractive, and then you meet them in real life and you kind of go, "Oh, weird." [chuckles] "I don't feel the same way." It's also why you can get back from a date and, and say, "Oh my God, I just had th- this amazing date with this incredibly hot person." And if you show pictures of that person to your friends, they're like, "Okay?"

   4. AAAli Abdaal54:16

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. MHMatthew Hussey54:17

      [laughs] I guess. You know, uh, because you, you were there.

   6. AAAli Abdaal54:21

      Yeah.

   7. MHMatthew Hussey54:22

      You were there. You saw how they move, how they smile, how they, how they gesture, how they, their micro expressions. So there's certainly things we can do to affect chemistry. Uh, and obviously you can create tension too, which is a big factor in chemist- in chemistry. Then there's perceived value, and perceived value is all these things that, that we are and do that bring value to the table. Uh, it might be our personality, uh, it might be the things that we're good at in life. It might be our life, the life that we've built. Um, can sometimes be our friends and family. You know, sometimes you meet someone's friends and family and you go, "Whoa, this is... What a life this is to come into."

   8. AAAli Abdaal54:59

      Yeah.

   9. MHMatthew Hussey54:59

      They have an amazing group of people around them, so much love, so much... So there's a lot of ways for perceived value to, to manifest itself. Then there's perceived challenge, and the interesting thing about perceived value is it goes down regardless of how many things are in that category if there's no perceived challenge.

   10. AAAli Abdaal55:22

       Hmm.

   11. MHMatthew Hussey55:23

       And perceived challenge is not, uh, the kind of, I don't know, a typical way of thinking about it, I guess, would be like hard to get.

   12. AAAli Abdaal55:33

       Yeah.

   13. MHMatthew Hussey55:33

       It's not-- That's a cheap way to create challenge, 'cause the problem with hard to get is you can't keep it up forever. The moment you are got-

   14. AAAli Abdaal55:42

       Yeah

   15. MHMatthew Hussey55:44

       I- if someone's, if your attraction was built around the getting-

   16. AAAli Abdaal55:47

       Mm

   17. MHMatthew Hussey55:47

       ... then you can't sustain it. But if the, the, the real beautiful sustainable way to create challenge is for there to be, uh, for your value to have a price.

   18. AAAli Abdaal56:00

       Okay, what do you mean?

   19. MHMatthew Hussey56:02

       That, that your value doesn't come for free. Your value is something that has to be earned by the, someone showing up in the way you're prepared to show up, by someone being prepared to make the kind of sacrifices you're prepared to make for someone, um, by someone giving to you on a level that you're willing to give, respecting you on a level that, that you respect them. Um, and also not giving someone too much credit too quickly. That's a, a big problem. When we come from a needy place, when we come from a place of insecurity, we start giving people credit they don't deserve yet. "I just met the m- I just had the most amazing date with the most amazing person. Oh my God, they're incredible." Based on what? Based on how f- on what basis, what information could you have possibly got on one date that enables you to say this? You have been seduced by a kind of charm, a charisma maybe, a, the fact that you did something really fun on the date, the fact that they made you laugh a lot, the fact that they told stories about their past that made them relatable or sympathetic or seem really a- authentic. All of that is great. I'm not be- I'm not saying be inherently suspicious. I'm saying you don't know.

   20. AAAli Abdaal57:25

       Yeah.

   21. MHMatthew Hussey57:26

       You don't know. So on what basis are you giving them all of this value already? Based on projection and based on insecurity. This immediate putting them on a pedestal and putting yourself down here. And when someone smells that-

   22. AAAli Abdaal57:42

       Mm

   23. MHMatthew Hussey57:42

       ... they don't see an equal anymore. And that's, that's what I mean when I say challenge. I don't mean artificially constructing games or hoops for people to jump through. I mean that the, the criteria you have for someone has to be real.

   24. AAAli Abdaal58:00

       Yeah.

   25. MHMatthew Hussey58:01

       It has to be real. Like, it's you and I met today for the first time. Really enjoying our conversation. Hope you are too.

   26. AAAli Abdaal58:11

       Absolutely. [laughs]

   27. MHMatthew Hussey58:12

       You know, but we don't know each other yet as friends. You don't know if I'd be reliable if you needed something. You don't know if I would show up to support you if something went wrong in your life. You don't know, you don't know any of that. So, you know, it would be dangerous to go away and make a, an assessment on how great of a friend I would be-

   28. AAAli Abdaal58:38

       Yeah

   29. MHMatthew Hussey58:38

       ... based on this exchange. It, what, what you would hope in an organic situation is that you and I go, "This was really, really fun. We got on really well. This was a great conversation. I would like to get to know this guy better."

   30. AAAli Abdaal58:54

       Mm.
10. 1:02:55 – 1:08:21

    The importance of compatibility

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:02:55

       Well, what do you mean by compatibility?

    2. MHMatthew Hussey1:02:56

       It could be anything. It could be, uh, my idea of a good time is staying home watching movies, and yours is constantly traveling around the world.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:03:04

       Yeah.

    4. MHMatthew Hussey1:03:05

       It could be your idea of a good time is going out and drinking and doing drugs, and I don't wanna live that life.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:03:12

       Yeah.

    6. MHMatthew Hussey1:03:13

       And we've both said yes to each other, but the, you know, our idea of what is a good life is completely different, or our idea of loyalty is completely different. Your idea of loyalty is that I don't have sex with anyone. My idea of loyalty is that you don't emotionally cheat on me in the texts you send.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:03:33

       Yeah.

    8. MHMatthew Hussey1:03:34

       You know? That we've both said yes to each other, we have admiration, connection, com- commitment, and yet I am miserable-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:03:44

       Yeah

    10. MHMatthew Hussey1:03:44

        ... because of what your definition of loyalty is. So compatibility is do we both wanna live the same kind of life and, and do our values line up, and do we both have the same idea? Two people can say, "I value kindness," but we can have very different standards for what kindness actually means. So without that stage, so many things go wrong. My-- What, what I mean to say with all of this is that w- we lose our value in dating when we stop paying attention to the appropriate level of importance at different stages. If you take stage two, I found someone I have a connection with, as the be-all, end-all, and the thing that you martyr yourself in service of, you lose all your value. You, you are now the person who spends a lifetime, uh, accepting really poor treatment from someone because every time you see them, "It's amazing. You don't understand. When we're together, it's so good. It's so incredible. They're so there for me. The, the sex is amazing. The chemistry is amazing. We have such amazing conversations." "What's the problem?" "I haven't heard from them in two weeks. But Matt, you don't understand. The connection is incredible. You don't under- Like this, this is really important to me." Why? Why? Because you, you have miscalculated the value of stage two.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:05:21

        Mm.

    12. MHMatthew Hussey1:05:21

        And when you do that, you lose your value because someone realizes your value, what you're willing to give, has no price. It's free. It does not need to be earned. So your perceived challenge drops. And when your perceived-- When there's no challenge to you, when someone realizes your value has no price, then you lose respect, and you, and you end up losing real value as a result, which is crazy. But I know it all sounds kinda heady, but it, you know, it really-- This stuff is real. Whether you-- Whether s- when someone-- There'll be people listening to this. Uh, guaranteed there'll be someone in the comments who says, "Ugh, does it all need to be so difficult? Can't you just be yourself?"

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:06:05

        Yeah.

    14. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:05

        And the answer is no, because you may not be doing the things that make you confident or that show your real value. You shouldn't be, uh, someone you're not.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:06:20

        Mm.

    16. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:21

        But people define being themselves as holding onto all of their, the things that make them make bad decisions or that make them, uh, their trauma or the things that they haven't healed or the things that make them chase after someone who will ruin their life. That's not being yourself. That's, that's not healing. That's not doing the things that are necessary for you to attract a much more quality version of connection and love in your life. So the reason that I've geeked out on all of this stuff is because the consequences of ignoring what I'm saying are a v- life of suffering.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:06:58

        Mm.

    18. MHMatthew Hussey1:06:59

        And I have watched it over and over again. I have watched women get to their 40s where they just gave up 10 years of their life to a guy that was never giving them what they wanted, was never on the same path as them. But they ignored it because they valued the connection so much, or they valued the chemistry so much, or both. And now their window for having children of their own has, has gone. And the grief that comes after that is profound. I, I actually see that pain. So when someone in the comments says, "Oh, you don't need to do all of this. You don't need to think about all of this," it's the same as someone saying, "No one needs therapy. No one needs to work on themselves. Just do you." [chuckles] Okay. Okay. To them, do that. I'm not that guy. I'm not someone who's saying all of this to other people and then not doing it for myself. You know, I'm, I've, I'm on a path myself. I have a therapist, I have coaches, I have people that help me. I, I, and I will continue to-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:08:04

        Mm-hmm

    20. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:05

        ... my whole life because my, my life gets better when I get better.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:08:12

        Love it. That's a great chemistry connection, perceived value, perceived challenge. Um, is there a difference in waiting or anything... Uh, and I, I get...

11. 1:08:21 – 1:21:55

    Is there a difference between dating advice for men and women?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:08:21

       Uh, okay, so I guess this is a broader question. Is there much difference between dating advice for men and dating advi- advice for women? Because I feel like the more abstracted you get in dating advice, the more it feels like it applies to both-

    2. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:36

       Mm-hmm

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:08:36

       ... sexes, genders, whatever term we wanna use for that. But also, then there are the, the, the more, uh, non-politically correct you go down the different genres of men's dating advice and women's dating advice, the more polarizing it seems.

    4. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:50

       Yeah.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:08:50

       It's like, okay-

    6. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:51

       Yeah

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:08:51

       ... this is for men and this is for women.

    8. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:52

       Yeah.

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:08:52

       So what, like how do, how do you straddle that somewhat dodgy ground of like-

    10. MHMatthew Hussey1:08:56

        Yeah, go-

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:08:57

        ... this works for men or this works for women, this works for... Mm. [laughs]

    12. MHMatthew Hussey1:09:00

        I think that you have to just be honest from, uh, an empirical perspective-

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:09:06

        Yeah

    14. MHMatthew Hussey1:09:07

        ... about what men seem to struggle with and what women seem to struggle with.

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:09:11

        Okay.

    16. MHMatthew Hussey1:09:12

        You know what I mean? It, there's a, the empirical perspect- the empirical perspective is, is just really us, a, a fancy way of saying what seems true based on what you actually experience.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:09:24

        Yeah.

    18. MHMatthew Hussey1:09:25

        Um, and then acting on solving the real problem, the real thing that you're seeing over and over again. I think that it's empirically true for a lot of guys more than it's true for a lot of women that men struggle to be vulnerable. Now, women struggle to be vulnerable, too. There's no doubt about that. Everyone does. But when it comes to, uh, let's say being strong and appearing strong and appearing masculine, appearing alpha-

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:10:00

        Mm-hmm

    20. MHMatthew Hussey1:10:01

        ... men struggle to be vulnerable.

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:10:04

        Yeah.

    22. MHMatthew Hussey1:10:05

        Because a lot of men, maybe most, have learned that a huge part of their value is tied up in how strong of a man they are, how their ability to dominate-

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:10:18

        Mm

    24. MHMatthew Hussey1:10:18

        ... their ability to be the alpha of the pack. These are ver- this is very male-conditioned language. I'm not an anthropologist, so I have no... I don't need to talk about whether it's biologically programmed or where it comes from, whether it's genuinely a part of us and always will be or whether it's just societally conditioned. I don't need to be part of that argument. I just need to deal with men the way they actually are today.

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:10:43

        Yeah.

    26. MHMatthew Hussey1:10:44

        And a huge number of men are terrified that if they display any weakness, a woman is gonna run the other way, and she's gonna go and date the alpha of the pack. Um, so you can, th- in that, you can just say, okay, regardless of whether, wh- the getting into the details of how w- different men and women are biologically, I think you can just say men struggle with this. How do we get men to be vulnerable but in a way that allows them to still feel attractive?

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:11:20

        Yeah.

    28. MHMatthew Hussey1:11:21

        Or how do they search for someone? How do they, how do men start, instead of putting stock in how many women find them attractive, which may no longer be the best measure of your happiness, is figuring out how to be attractive to the maximum number of women. Instead, maybe it's helping men redefine, oh, happiness isn't being attractive to the maximum number of women. Attractive is finding a woman, or, uh, happiness rather, is finding a woman that really accepts you with ev- for everything that you struggle with, as well as everywhere that you're naturally strong.

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:11:59

        Mm-hmm.

    30. MHMatthew Hussey1:12:00

        And that real happiness is gonna be finding someone who can hold both parts of you. They, they both celebrate where you're amazing and strong and naturally gifted, and they also are able to, um, accept and truly see the parts of you that are afraid, the parts of you that have trauma, the parts of you that don't feel like you match up to other men or other situations or whatever. That, to me... And by the way, doesn't then define you by that. You know, doesn't... I, I always remember a relationship where I said something very vulnerable. I, I talked about something that had made me insecure that night, and it really felt like it was thrown back in my face, like it didn't go well. You know, I'm a huge Brene Brown fan, but in that night I hated Brene Brown. I was like [laughs] I was like, "I should never have said this."
12. 1:21:55 – 1:34:10

    Your advantages can become your weaknesses

    1. MHMatthew Hussey1:21:55

       attraction. A unique pairing is when you find two different qualities that are both attractive, but on their own can be a bit two-dimensional. But when you find them in the same person, that creates a 3D effect-

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:22:07

       Mm

    3. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:07

       ... that is mesmerizing. So if you find someone who's really sexy, but then they can be completely goofy and make you laugh, that's a unique pairing.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:22:18

       Mm.

    5. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:18

       You're like, "Whoa, that's..." Normally, someone's just sexy.

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:22:21

       Mm.

    7. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:21

       Normally, someone's just funny, and I wanna eat pizza with them, but I don't wanna go home with them. Now I find someone that is super sexy, and then after the fact, I wanna spend all day with them laughing. Well, we might just have a relationship. You know? That's a unique pairing, and I think that a lot of people have forgotten that. They've, they've become addicted to a certain way of being that has worked for them.

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:22:47

       Yeah.

    9. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:47

       If it's being, like, hard-headed in business, that's worked for them. But the problem is, you're-- What-- And usually it starts young, right? What we get validated for-

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:22:56

        Yep

    11. MHMatthew Hussey1:22:57

        ... we keep doing. If you're funny, you keep being funny. If you're successful, you keep acquiring more success. If you're... I-I-I-If people like you for your looks, then you double down on that. We all have those things that we got validated for early on, and our validations become our mutations. They become the things that we go, we, we keep doubling down on, and we become less and less diversified in our energy, our personality. You can't be, you can't be one great song. You, you have to be an album. Like, every, everyone has to be an album. Some album, albums have sad songs. They have happy songs. They have up-tempo songs. They have slower songs. You, you gotta be able to be all of those things, and everyone should ask themselves, men and women alike, "Am I being an album, or am I being this, this one great hit and hoping that someone sticks around?" I had a relationship with someone years ago, uh, in my early 20s when-- or it was just as I was approaching my 20s, and I remember asking this person why it, uh, months after the relationship ended, I was like, "Why did you not wanna be in it, in it anymore?" And she said, "Honestly?" I said, "Yes," [laughs] "I guess." She said, "It got boring." She said, "You were so ambitious, and that was really, really attractive at first. But then it was all you were. It, it was like you... It was all you could talk about. It was all we did, was you'd just talk about work and whatever. It was never anything else." And that was a very important lesson for me in my life because I realized that one side of a unique pairing can actually... Uh, Christopher Hitchens, uh, once said that the key in relationships is not allowing your advantages to negate themselves.

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:24:44

        Ooh, nice.

    13. MHMatthew Hussey1:24:46

        And the, in his case, what he was talking about is he was obviously a formidable debater on the stage, and he did it for a living. But when he was at home, he said when he was in an argument with his wife, it, uh, the guy on stage would come out and really think about how to win this argument, and even after the fact, he would go away and, like, work on his case-

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:25:09

        Yeah

    15. MHMatthew Hussey1:25:09

        ... and come back and be like, "All right. I've got the death blow to your argument." And he realized there was no points for that-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:25:16

        Yeah

    17. MHMatthew Hussey1:25:17

        ... in his relationship. Uh, this was the mother of his children. He was not trying to win a debate on a stage. Your advantages can negate themselves. It's worth everyone asking, "What are, what are the strengths I've been riding on, and where have they become my, my greatest weaknesses?"

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:25:37

        What's the deal with, uh, masculine and feminine energy, and how does that relate to kind of your coaching thesis and anything like that?

    19. MHMatthew Hussey1:25:46

        Do you know what's so funny?

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:25:47

        Is that a thing?

    21. MHMatthew Hussey1:25:47

        Someone asked me this the other day, and I d- I feel like I just had a terrible answer. I don't... I feel like, uh, people have become very caught up with the language-

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:25:59

        Yeah

    23. MHMatthew Hussey1:25:59

        ... of things, and i- at the risk of reiterating the, the point I was just making, I really do think that [laughs] Well, it's almost worth looking at what would make me boring? If I was just masculine all the time, however you wanna define that. If I was just assertive and dominant and decisive and ambitious and whatever. If you wanna ... I, I, there are people I'm sure who are far more educated than me on what the traditional masculine, feminine actually means. But in terms of when I think of what I associate it with, if you were just all those things all the time, it would be ter- I don't wanna be friends with a guy like that. Do you know what I loved most about that trip to Poland with Wim Hof was that, that we were a group of guys that we were doing hard things together. Like, it was not easy. We were jumping off of cliffs into frozen lakes and trekking up mountains in the snow in our shorts. But the, that wasn't even the part I enjoyed the most. Like, the part I enjoyed the most was when we actually sat around and as a group of guys everyone got vulnerable. And the, we were doing the things that wouldn't have been traditionally associated with masculine energy. So, and even, even Wim, who's this kind of like seems invincible said by the end of that trip, he was like, "This has really helped me because I feel like I've been able to be vulnerable in a way that I'm often not able to be." And that was, that felt beautiful to me. So, and because of that, I felt so much more connected to that group of guys. I felt like, oh, I've, I really feel like that, I feel bonded to you because I feel like I understand you and I feel like, oh, all my fears-

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:27:46

        Mm

    25. MHMatthew Hussey1:27:46

        ... and the things I'm worried I'm not good enough and they're, they're being articulated by you guys too, and I feel less alone as a result. Um, so and it, that in some ways it was like doing all those hard things together felt like it was almost a way of getting to that.

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:28:05

        Yeah.

    27. MHMatthew Hussey1:28:07

        If I ... So I know all the men in my life, they are, they have the qualities that would be traditionally, I suppose, associated with like feminine energy. They have those thing- The best friends I have have those things in spades.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:28:24

        Mm.

    29. MHMatthew Hussey1:28:27

        The ... When I think about would I have ever been attracted to someone who just had feminine energy-

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:28:33

        Mm
13. 1:34:10 – 1:44:21

    How much is attraction a choice?

    1. AAAli Abdaal1:34:11

       one thing I've often heard, and I d- I don't know, I don't know to what extent this is just a stereotype or if it's actually, actually a thing, um, the, the trope of women saying something like, "You know, I know I want to marry Mr. Right, but I find myself attracted to Mr. Exciting."

    2. MHMatthew Hussey1:34:28

       Mm.

    3. AAAli Abdaal1:34:29

       And I g- I guess it's a situation that you've dealt with. I, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda guessing. But, and, and I guess I wanted to lead, lead from that into the question of to what extent is attraction a choice? And how much... Like, if, for example, I find myself attracted to the sort of person who is not good for me in w- whatever, wh- whatever that might look like.

    4. MHMatthew Hussey1:34:50

       Mm.

    5. AAAli Abdaal1:34:50

       Can I nudge my deep core into being attracted to, quote, "the nice guy" or the whatever? Or is it like a, like what's, what, what's going on there?

    6. MHMatthew Hussey1:35:00

       What a fantastic question. Um, I think that to an extent we chase what we know.

    7. AAAli Abdaal1:35:10

       Hmm.

    8. MHMatthew Hussey1:35:11

       And sometimes being attracted to something other than what we know or has historically have been attracted to is, um, a matter of curiosity, of actually opening ourselves up to a different kind of person, to a different kind of situation, and exploring it for all it is. We, we tend to be very-- We make up our minds quite quickly-

    9. AAAli Abdaal1:35:30

       Yeah

    10. MHMatthew Hussey1:35:31

        ... about things. Even labeling someone a nice person. The, the, you know, Alain de Botton would say they're not that nice. You know, nice is a, is a kind of a mask. They could be as freaky as the freakiest person you've ever met when it comes down to it.

    11. AAAli Abdaal1:35:45

        Mm.

    12. MHMatthew Hussey1:35:45

        You know, this, this idea of labeling someone a nice person is, um... Or labeling someone the bad boy. Why? What, because they didn't call you for three days, that makes them a bad boy? You know? What, because they were a bit of a jerk to the, to someone, like, they're the bad boy? Like, what are you... What is that? What is that label? Uh, do you think they're the bad boy all of the time? [laughs] Like, you think they're that person 24 hours a day? Of course they're not. But based on this label you've given them, they're exciting. Based on this label you've given this person, they're boring. So I think that it, yes, of course there is a sense of there's a kind of reflexive attraction that we can have for people.

    13. AAAli Abdaal1:36:31

        Mm.

    14. MHMatthew Hussey1:36:31

        But I think that's a sometimes a lack of imagination and a, a lack of curiosity if you took time to actually get to know somebody. I'm not saying you go on a date with someone where there's absolutely zero chemistry and you just keep hitting and hoping-

    15. AAAli Abdaal1:36:48

        Yeah

    16. MHMatthew Hussey1:36:48

        ... and going, "Oh, I'll, I'll see them again 'cause maybe one day chemistry could come about." No, I don't, I, I don't believe that. But I always think if, if you feel like some, some kind of interesting tickle in a direction that you haven't felt it before and you go, "Well, this isn't normally my type," or, "This isn't normally my person," or, "This isn't... But I feel something," follow that. Give that chance, because that might actually lead you somewhere you've never been before, and where you've never been before might be the answer. I think that we, we prejudge a lot. We judge what we're supposed to have, what we think our friends and family would, would validate.

    17. AAAli Abdaal1:37:30

        Yeah.

    18. MHMatthew Hussey1:37:31

        You know, "Oh, he's really good-looking. Well done."

    19. AAAli Abdaal1:37:34

        Yeah.

    20. MHMatthew Hussey1:37:35

        You know, and you, so you kinda start k- looking for that. Even though you might find a, an attraction with this person that doesn't look like that, you feel validated by the fact that other people are, are giving you the, the pr- the social proof around that person, so you feel like you keep... And that, that's, by the way, it's how people get themselves in so much trouble. They show off their, their partner and they, "Oh my God, he's so tall, handsome, and successful. Look at you. Good job." And they're miserable at home with this person. But every time they go out and hear, "Well, he's, he's very impressive," and they, they go, "Oh, I should, like... Yeah, I should, I should, I should be grateful. This person's amazing. I should continue to be grateful." You know? So we have to be careful of the outside conditioning-

    21. AAAli Abdaal1:38:19

        Yeah

    22. MHMatthew Hussey1:38:20

        Um, and we also have to be careful, Dr. Ramani would, and people in her profession, uh, psychologists would talk about the kind of the trauma bond that exists when we've been used to, you know, a parent that neglected us or that, that was very hot and cold in our lives, and that becomes kind of what we know.

    23. AAAli Abdaal1:38:39

        Mm.

    24. MHMatthew Hussey1:38:39

        And so we get attracted to, to that behavior in others. Um, and we try and complete a journey that never felt finished when we were young. And-

    25. AAAli Abdaal1:38:47

        Yeah

    26. MHMatthew Hussey1:38:47

        ... it, so we also have to be very careful of what we're labeling attraction.

    27. AAAli Abdaal1:38:53

        Yeah.

    28. MHMatthew Hussey1:38:53

        Am I labeling this trauma and this heightened sense of anxiety that I have around you because you're fickle and you never make me feel secure? Am I labeling that excitement?

    29. AAAli Abdaal1:39:06

        Mm.

    30. MHMatthew Hussey1:39:07

        Oh, I, I, I just, what is it I've got with this person? I, and the more they, they don't call me, the more I'm like, "Oh, they- there's something special about this one."
14. 1:44:21 – 1:54:23

    Long term relationships & the honeymoon phase

    1. MHMatthew Hussey1:44:21

       timeline?

    2. AAAli Abdaal1:44:22

       Um, a couple questions about long-term relationships. So, uh, honeymoon phase.

    3. MHMatthew Hussey1:44:28

       Mm.

    4. AAAli Abdaal1:44:29

       What's, what's the deal with that?

    5. MHMatthew Hussey1:44:31

       Yeah, I, you know, I'm, I'm-- I would wanna be really careful on this because-

    6. AAAli Abdaal1:44:36

       Yeah

    7. MHMatthew Hussey1:44:36

       ... talking, uh, from a place of humility, I, I've not been in the kinds of long-term relationships that other people have. I'm now engaged. I'm incredibly, uh, happy and excited about the future. Um, but there will be people who, you know, have... Like Esther Perel's work is a really big influence for me because this is someone who not only has had a long-term marriage, but has written extensively on the subject of love and desire-

    8. AAAli Abdaal1:45:08

       Yeah

    9. MHMatthew Hussey1:45:09

       ... in relationships, and I would absolutely point people to her book, Mating in Captivity, which I think is an extraordinary read and something that so many people can learn from. W- to paraphrase Esther's work, which is n- no doubt much more eloquently put in her book, she says that there's love and there's desire and that love, um, [lips smack] well, let's start with desire. Desire is what exists first.

    10. AAAli Abdaal1:45:36

        Mm.

    11. MHMatthew Hussey1:45:37

        We see someone, we become attracted to them, and we desire them, and we wanna close down the space between us and them. Desire exists in the space, right? The mystery. Who are you? What are you all about? Could you like me? Could I win you over? Could... You know, I wanna know you. And then as someone says yes-

    12. AAAli Abdaal1:45:56

        Mm

    13. MHMatthew Hussey1:45:56

        ... you have the building of love. So we start to know each other. We start to get closer and closer and closer and closer and closer, and we have this feeling of kind of oneness between us and, and all of that fosters feelings of love. Uh, as Esther would put it, the, the paradox becomes how do you continue to desire that which you already have? And so now as you kind of become that unit-

    14. AAAli Abdaal1:46:27

        Mm

    15. MHMatthew Hussey1:46:27

        ... there's less space between you. There may feel like there's no space between you, and so desire becomes suffocated-

    16. AAAli Abdaal1:46:33

        Yeah

    17. MHMatthew Hussey1:46:33

        ... because desire exists in that space. [sighs] And then you, so then you enter that world of, well, what does, what does desire look like in a long-term context? Uh, we don't wanna play a game in a long-term relationship where, where [chuckles] we kind of are constantly making our partner feel on edge-

    18. AAAli Abdaal1:46:56

        Yeah

    19. MHMatthew Hussey1:46:56

        ... so that there's a sense of danger and, and yet desire sometimes wants a sense of danger. Desire sometimes wants a sense of mystery. Desire wants a sense of spontaneity, of the new, of the unrecognizable. Uh, now people want it to differing extents, right? The honeymoon period is gonna be much more important to some people than others.

    20. AAAli Abdaal1:47:16

        Yeah.

    21. MHMatthew Hussey1:47:16

        'Cause some people are, are wired and engineered to want security. So for them, love is gonna be much more important for them to achieve than to maintain feelings of desire. For other people, they're engineered in the opposite way. It's much more important for them to constantly feel like that excitement than it is for them to feel safety. Not that they don't wanna feel safe at all, but it's just the balance is different. And so I think what's kind of interesting is firstly to f- to, to try to find somebody who's not engineered completely differently than you.

    22. AAAli Abdaal1:47:56

        Hmm.

    23. MHMatthew Hussey1:47:58

        Where they, you know, it's all love and no desire, or it's all desire and no love 'cause that's gonna be miserable. Uh, but you may find that you're not calibrated exactly the same in those two things, and that's okay. But, uh, that to me is where it's really important to listen to your partner's needs. We, we get so caught up in a relationship in figuring out what we need, what's my love language-

    24. AAAli Abdaal1:48:30

        Yeah

    25. MHMatthew Hussey1:48:30

        ... what, what makes me feel loved? And the, and the dangerous thing is that we start giving to somebody else what we would wish they would give to us. So if we like security, then, and we think that's the highest thing you can give someone, then we start going out of our way to give them as much security as possible. "I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. I'll never leave you. I think you're the most amazing person on Earth," and so on, and we give them lots and lots of security, right? And we end up giving them that thing that we crave. But it doesn't mean you're wrong for craving it. It just means that you're, you're not necessarily listening to what that person requires 'cause they may just be engineered a little different. So I think it's really valuable to just think about what's, what are the things that make my partner, that stoke desire in my partner? Because in a way, that to me is what the honeymoon p- the honeymoon period is a couple of things. Firstly, it's thinking we're perfect. I think you're perfect. You think I'm perfect, and that just feels unbelievable and idyllic, and then we realize we're not perfect, and th- go, you go through a k- a storming period, and the dust settles, and now you have a real relationship where we actually see each other and say, "I'm still here-"

    26. AAAli Abdaal1:49:46

        Yeah

    27. MHMatthew Hussey1:49:46

        "... even though I really see you now." That's the, to me, that's the transition into a real relationship. Um, but, but beyond that, it's also I think the, the honeymoon period is that period of intense desire.

    28. AAAli Abdaal1:49:57

        Yeah.

    29. MHMatthew Hussey1:49:59

        I think it's worth paying attention as you transition in your relationship to whatever the next phase is. Really pay attention to what are the moments where my partner feels desire?

    30. AAAli Abdaal1:50:10

        Hmm.

Episode duration: 1:54:23