Communication Expert: Master the Secret Art of Charisma & Influence | Vanessa Van Edwards

Vanessa Van Edwards 0:00 Sometimes a m- a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, "So what's your business? What do you do?" And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years.

Codie Sanchez 0:10 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 0:10 And you see people like, "Okay, cool." They're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand.

Codie Sanchez 0:16 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 0:16 And they're contemptuous of that.

Codie Sanchez 0:18 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 0:18 So if you're introducing yourself or you're explaining something and you're like, "Gosh, Vanessa, it's ta- I'm seeing this contempt everywhere," you are overcomplicating it.

Codie Sanchez 0:25 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 0:26 You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want, what you want from them. [upbeat music]

Codie Sanchez 0:38 So obviously, I love creating content. We post, like, 50 pieces of it across all my platforms. And if you've ever created content, you know the uphill battle it can be to ideate, to write, produce, film video, and then you have to edit it all. So one of my favorite tools to use for this is Riverside. You've probably heard about it before, but I don't think people realize that it's revolutionized the podcast space by allowing creators all over the world to do the recording in 4K, regardless of internet speed. But they've just released an update that I think any creator's gonna love. So along with the high-quality video and audio that they've kinda become known for, you can have editing software, so you can edit any video content directly in Riverside. If your team's a little bit more bougie, like mine, and wants to record the video themselves, and then you can upload it to Riverside so you can use their amazing AI tools afterwards. It can transcribe your video, add customizable caption, analyze that transcript to cut out any dead space in the video. And my favorite part, they have this AI editor feature that will pull short form from clips from my content, so we can squeeze all the juice of it out from the many hours it takes to create it. If you think time is money like I do, then Riverside has given me and my team back lots of time, AKA money. So I love these guys. And because I love you, I got you guys a deal. So try Riverside for yourself with the link in this episode's description. You can sign up for free using the link and discount code Codie at checkout for a discount on any paid plan. Welcome back to The Big Deal Podcast. I'm Codie Sanchez, and this podcast is for those of you who don't just want to be rich, but free, and are willing to do what it takes to get there. Okay, this week we have on somebody that I go to every time I am struggling with, how do I communicate with somebody? With, why isn't my team doing what I want it to do? With, why can't I get my husband to do what I want him to do? And her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. You guys might know her because she has one of the most popular TED Talks of all time on communication and the cues we give with our body that tell people things without us even moving our mouth. She runs something called Science of People, which is a large psychology-based business on, how can we use behavioral cues in order for us to get what we want out of life, to live better lives, to be more successful? She also is a bestselling author times two, frequently on Good Morning America, CNBC, MSNBC. You guys are kind of in for a treat because she has only done two podcasts this year, Mel Robbins and now mine. What I love about Vanessa is she talks about things that are applicable to our everyday lives that we can take away and take real action on, but all backed by science. And so she is like a walking encyclopedia of studies and experiments that you can then take and apply to your business. So in this episode today, we go over, how do you pitch somebody something so that they will buy it? We talk about how in your business do you communicate in meetings that is probably making people not like you and you to be less successful. We talk about how to communicate with members of the opposite sex to actually figure out if they're into you or going to be into you, and vice versa. We also talk about, how do you run a business or be successful in business if you're an introvert or if you don't really like people? And one of my favorite ones, how do you tell people no but get them to thank you? So I think you guys are really gonna like this episode. Let's dive right in to a story that kinda blew my mind when Vanessa started. [upbeat music] We gotta start with one of my favorite stories.

Vanessa Van Edwards 3:59 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 4:00 Shark Tank, Ring, I'll say no more.

Vanessa Van Edwards 4:02 Okay. Ring, billion-dollar company now, was a great idea. Video doorbell. Okay, Jamie Siminoff has this idea. He has lots of growth, lots of traction. He goes on Shark Tank. You think, "No-brainer." He enters the tank. He does a pitch, not a good one. [laughs] But does a pitch, shows revenue numbers, has really promising numbers, and he doesn't get a deal. Months later, he gets an investment from Shaq, Richard Branson, but he failed on Shark Tank, and it is the perfect example, and it was sobering for me, this was back in 2012, 2013, where he had a great idea, a m- literally a million-dollar idea, but he didn't know how to pitch it, and it failed.

Codie Sanchez 4:41 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 4:41 And that is the problem, is I think a lot of business owners have amazing ideas. Doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it, it will not sell.

Codie Sanchez 4:48 Let's watch a second of this clip. [suspenseful music] [knocking] Who's there? It's Jamie. Here to pitch. Who? It's Jamie.

Vanessa Van Edwards 5:01 Come in. [upbeat music]

Codie Sanchez 5:08 Sharks, wouldn't it have been nice to know who was behind the door before you let me in? With my product,

Codie Sanchez 5:13 you can. What do you take away from this? What are the learning lessons so that we can only be the Ring founder after he became a billionaire-

Vanessa Van Edwards 5:20 Yes

Codie Sanchez 5:20 ... [laughs] not during Shark Tank.

Vanessa Van Edwards 5:20 Yes. Okay, so here's a big mistake that people make when they're pitching, pitching on stage, pitching on a video call, pitching to an investor, is they prep their pitch and not their first impression.

Codie Sanchez 5:30 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 5:31 But people decide how smart you are, how trustworthy you are, and if they're gonna like your idea when they first see you. That is even before your opening line. And so what I learned in that was that his first impression was one of the ver- worst first impressions I've ever seen.

Codie Sanchez 5:46 Why?

Vanessa Van Edwards 5:46 So what he did is he was trying to be clever, is he came in and he knocked on the door of the Shark Tank. And they said, "Who's there?" And he said, "It's Jamie. Here to pitch an idea." And he asked his own name. In that moment, I think he lost the deal The reason for this is because an accidental question inflection, when you accidentally ask your name or your number or your statement, people question you

Codie Sanchez 6:11 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 6:11 And so I think in his opening line, and this is a mistake people make all the time, is they ask their name or they ask their number, and you're begging people to negotiate with you. I do tons of sales trainings, right? And here's what I hear all the time. "We'd love to have your business. We'd love to work with you, and the price of that will be $5,000." You ask your number. You're telling people, "I don't really believe this number, and neither should you."

Codie Sanchez 6:32 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 6:32 Those people have the lowest close, lowest close rates, the biggest pushback, and also people lack confidence in you. So I think that the first impressions was the really big one there, is it's before you even open your mouth or your very first line is actually gonna set you up for an entire pitch.

Codie Sanchez 6:46 Fascinating. So what should it sound like?

Vanessa Van Edwards 6:48 Okay, so instead you want to use what's called the downward inflection, and you want to do this, it's much more authoritative, is when we're speaking as humans... Well, can I share a really good study?

Codie Sanchez 6:56 Of course.

Vanessa Van Edwards 6:56 Just like a juicy study. Okay. So most people when they think about how to pitch, they think about the words they use, maybe the, what they're wearing or their body language. But actually, our vocal power is a secret way that we can show confidence, and here's the study. They brought doctors into the recording studio, and they had them record 10-second voice tone clips like this. [clears throat] "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology, and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital." They took these clips and they warbled the words, so you could hear the pitch, the volume, the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said.

Codie Sanchez 7:27 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 7:28 Then they asked participants to listen to these clips and the, the, the gobbledygook sounded like [warbled speech] . I worked really hard on practicing. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 7:37 You nailed it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 7:38 Nailed it. Yeah. Yes, thank you. So they listened to the clips and they said, "How smart is this person? Do you like this person?" The doctors who had the lowest ratings in warmth and competence had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.

Codie Sanchez 7:51 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 7:52 Which means that when you first say, "Hey, my name is Vanessa," how you say that is ma- right then people are deciding how smart and how trustworthy you are.

Codie Sanchez 8:00 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 8:01 And so when we're talking about vocal power, the biggest mistake the doctors made is they asked their names. They said, "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital." What would've been better is going on the downward inflection, so that sounds like this. "Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital."

Codie Sanchez 8:20 Oh, yeah. I believe you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 8:21 You, "Oh, my gosh," right?

Codie Sanchez 8:22 Yes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 8:22 Like, even I would hire me, and I'm not a doctor. You know? [laughs] Um, someone who was really good at this, Barack Obama.

Codie Sanchez 8:27 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 8:28 Barack Obama, there is a cadence he has to his voice, and I do terrible impressions. I will try it for you, but I do terrible impressions. He used to go down, or he still goes down at the end of his sentences, which makes you sit up and listen.

Codie Sanchez 8:40 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 8:40 So he, this is my really bad Barack Obama impression, okay? Ready? Here it goes. [clears throat] I'm gonna talk about n- nothing. In our country today, we really have to work on something serious. If we don't work on this problem, we are going to have a major challenge. Right? Like, he's slinging his words down at you, and as humans-

Codie Sanchez 9:00 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:00 ... we think, "Whoa." If he's going that low and he's telling us what to do, it mo- better be real. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 9:05 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:06 And so it almost doesn't even matter what the content is, but we hear that vocal tone. So when you're practicing your pitches, practice stating your name, practice stating your numbers. And whatever question makes you nervous, like when investor's like, "So, what's the competition in the market?" Do not ask. Tell.

Codie Sanchez 9:21 Fascinating. H- do you use this also in interpersonal relations, not just pitches? Like, what is-

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:27 Oh, constantly.

Codie Sanchez 9:28 What, what other scenarios would you use this in? Is this how you communicate with your team, and also how you communicate with-

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:34 Mm

Codie Sanchez 9:34 ... your husband?

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:35 Yeah, so, uh, luckily I have think about all these cues as a science, and they are happening all the time.

Codie Sanchez 9:42 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 9:43 I think there are about 96 cues that people choose from. Like, they actually can pick these out and use them in interpersonal relationships. And it happens down to asking your husband where he wants to go to dinner. [laughs] It comes down to, uh, telling your kids what you want them to do. I notice that parents who have kids who don't listen as much are asking what they want them to do instead of saying what they want them to do. So-

Codie Sanchez 10:03 Gosh, you're right

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:04 ... so this is an assertiveness issue, right?

Codie Sanchez 10:07 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:07 When we talk about assertiveness in the workplace, at home, in interpersonal relationships, if you state your needs, people are much more likely to listen to them, and so it is happening all the time. But it's not just vocal power, right? It's also, um, how we carry ourselves, the kinds of words we use. In fact, the kinds of words we use change how people treat us.

Codie Sanchez 10:21 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:21 For example, there was a study, I love this study, they wanted to know if a single word could change the way people acted. They brought them into the lab, split them into two groups. One group was told, "Today you're gonna play the Wall Street game." The second group was told, "Today you're gonna play the community game."

Codie Sanchez 10:37 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:37 The trick was the games were the same. They wanted to know if that one single word switch would change how they interacted. Everyone who was told they were playing the Wall Street game shared an average of a third of their profits. People who were told they were playing the community game shared two-thirds of their profits.

Codie Sanchez 10:52 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:52 That means that when we hear words like community-

Codie Sanchez 10:56 Hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:56 ... we are primed to actually act more collaboratively, to actually act more communally. When we are primed to act in a competitive way, like Wall Street, we actually are less generous, but more co- m- more competitive. So the words you're using with your kids, with your spouses, with your friends, on your team, they are changing things. The biggest mistake I see is bosses send out, "Meeting, video call, one on one." What a missed opportunity. If you are doing that, you are blending in. I open my calendar multiple times a day. Call it what you want them to do in that meeting. You want a strategic meeting? Call it strategic goal-setting meeting.

Codie Sanchez 11:31 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:31 Collaboration team session. Accountability call. That, that way every single time someone opens their calendar, they're literally being primed on how they should act and behave in that moment.

Codie Sanchez 11:42 That's such good advice. I'm totally gonna steal that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:44 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 11:44 You know, it's interesting, because I was at an event the other day. Well, I was actually at church.

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:48 [laughs] Yay.

Codie Sanchez 11:49 And [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:50 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 11:50 And what I thought was fascinating is I went to two different churches over the course of two weeks 'cause we're looking for a church here in Austin-

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:56 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 11:56 ... that I want to be a part of. You saw in the group text.

Vanessa Van Edwards 11:59 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 11:59 And one of the ones I went to blew me away because of their priming.

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:03 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 12:04 So they opened it up- And they talked about how at this church they were a community, so they used that word.

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:12 One.

Codie Sanchez 12:12 One. Then they said, "And at this community, the job is not for the church and the book to serve you. It is for you to serve the book-

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:21 Serve

Codie Sanchez 12:22 ... and the church."

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:22 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 12:23 That in fact, if you want to become a better person-

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:26 Mm

Codie Sanchez 12:26 ... and if you want to achieve more of your goals and what you want out of life-

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:30 Mm

Codie Sanchez 12:31 ... that means you have to give first.

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:33 Mm. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 12:33 And so it was funny 'cause as I was listening to it, I was like, "God, these chairs are sort of uncomfortable." You know, I was like, I was like, "Gosh."

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:39 Deep. Deep. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 12:39 Yeah. I'm like, "The, you know, the lighting, this could be, like, a better setup."

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:42 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 12:42 I'm, I'm critiquing-

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:44 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 12:44 ... what's happening in church-

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:45 Totally

Codie Sanchez 12:45 ... which is totally not normal. And, um, but as I'm doing that, and he says, "If there is something that you want differently, if there is something that you think should change, who should be the person to change it? If not you, then who? Who should be the person to change it?" And everyone is like, "Me."

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:03 Me.

Codie Sanchez 13:03 And I was like, "Oh, that's so good," because what does that do? The second you in your event in your company, uh, then feel like there's something that needs to change-

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:14 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 13:14 ... your employees will feel like they're the ones that-

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:15 Yes

Codie Sanchez 13:16 ... can actually help you make the change.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:17 And that was a purposeful introduction. They thought and they said, "What purpose are we gonna give everyone?" Because we are infectious, right?

Codie Sanchez 13:24 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:24 We are emotionally contagious as humans.

Codie Sanchez 13:27 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:27 And so you have to think, "If I'm emotionally contagious, what contagion do I want to spread?"

Codie Sanchez 13:31 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:32 Do I want to spread influence, power, persuasion, kindness, wealth, happiness? What are those things? You have to be purposeful. They were, they were planning on what those words were gonna be when they first got there. Same

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:42 thing as your team meetings. What is the one-word goal?

Codie Sanchez 13:45 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:45 Is it collaboration, or is it get it done?

Codie Sanchez 13:47 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:48 Right? When you are starting a team call, here's my, uh, my least favorite thing. People get on a team call, and they go, "Well, we'll get started in a few. We'll let everyone log in."

Codie Sanchez 13:58 No.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:59 Yeah. No, that is a wasted opportunity, and it means you're not being purposeful. No. Your meetings start the moment you come on.

Codie Sanchez 14:05 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:05 If you're a boss. And they start with your intention for the meeting. "All right, everyone. Today, we're gonna do a big review, and I want to get really clear on some goals. But first, I want to start with tell me something good."

Codie Sanchez 14:15 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:15 Every team call I do, we, everyone on the team, because we're all remote, uh, two of us are in Austin, we say, "Share something good," because I noticed that we were starting accidentally on the negative.

Codie Sanchez 14:26 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:26 I think this is also, if you're a leader, we can do good by being good communicators.

Codie Sanchez 14:32 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:32 And so if you are starting your team calls with, "Ugh, this traffic, the numbers, the problems, so stressed, so busy, so hectic," what a scarcity mindset that is, and you are contagious.

Codie Sanchez 14:42 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:43 You say you're stressed, you just infected your whole team with stress because moods usually go from the top down.

Codie Sanchez 14:48 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:48 So I would rather you be positively contagious. That sets up such a good culture. It sets s- such good loyalty. So I noticed my team calls were, like, negative, like, accidentally so.

Codie Sanchez 14:57 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 14:57 So I was like, "No, no. We are changing this." So everyone shares something good. You know what my team member told me?

Codie Sanchez 15:02 What?

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:02 She said, "Every Tuesday, we have our team call. And on Monday, I do more good things."

Codie Sanchez 15:08 So that you have... Oh.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:08 So she has something to share on Tuesdays. And so I think that part of this is about being more charismatic and having more influence and pitching your ideas, but part of it's also let's spread more good. Like, let's be positively contagious.

Codie Sanchez 15:20 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:20 And that means being purposeful. That means no more accidental openers. "Sorry I'm late. It's been so busy." Never ask someone.

Codie Sanchez 15:26 Explain what an accidental opener is because that is-

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:28 Oh

Codie Sanchez 15:28 ... a beautiful line. I think doing an accidental opener is the worst way for a leader to lead.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:35 Yes. Okay, accidental openers happen when you have whatever's at the top of your mind, and it comes out of your mouth, and you've just changed the nature of the entire communication or interaction.

Codie Sanchez 15:43 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:43 Right? So it's this is the question that can we please go on a diet. No more, "Been busy? Is it your busy season?"

Codie Sanchez 15:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:52 "Oh, man. H- was that bad thing that happened last month still happening?"

Codie Sanchez 15:55 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:56 Right? You are literally juicing bad.

Codie Sanchez 15:59 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:00 Right? So I like purposeful openers, right? So that's, it's create a norm in your team where you're adding a personal, purposeful that people can prepare for that also respects your introverts.

Codie Sanchez 16:08 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:09 So I, I, I love my extroverted leaders, but extroverted leaders sometimes can actually turn off employees and lose them if they push them out of their introvert boundaries.

Codie Sanchez 16:18 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:18 So if you're like, "We're gonna do a new icebreaker every single week," for an introvert, they're like, "No. Please no."

Codie Sanchez 16:24 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:25 Right? So you have a norm on the team that we talk about something good, or we share something we've learned, or we do a goal review. Okay. Next is in your interpersonal react inter- in relationships is level up by asking better questions.

Codie Sanchez 16:36 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:37 You want to literally juice dopamine. Look, dopamine does a lot of things in our body. I will not overcomplicate it, but it is the chemical of motivation. When someone has dopamine coursing through their bodies, they are motivated to talk, open up, say yes, invest, do new things, say new things. It's the chemical of excitement. We can juice it with our questions. An accidental opener misses dopamine opportunities.

Codie Sanchez 17:00 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:01 So here's my favorite dopamine opener.

Codie Sanchez 17:02 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:03 "Working on anything exciting these days?"

Codie Sanchez 17:05 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:06 Please stop asking people what they do.

Codie Sanchez 17:08 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:09 I think when you ask someone, "What do you do?" first of all, it's a social script. You just told their brain, "Go on autopilot."

Codie Sanchez 17:14 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:14 "I'm gonna ask the same boring questions as I always ask."

Codie Sanchez 17:17 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:17 And second, if someone is not defined by what they do, they are answering on autopilot, and then they are, they have no dopamine at all, right?

Codie Sanchez 17:25 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:25 Their brain is off. They're thinking about their to-do list. If you ask someone, "Working on anything exciting these days?" you are giving them such a beautiful contagion, which is they get to think through their head, "Exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting." That is literally juicing dopamine from excitement in their own life.

Codie Sanchez 17:41 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:41 And it gives them permission to tell you what they want to tell you.

Codie Sanchez 17:44 That's really good. Yeah, in a perfect world, too, then you never have somebody say, "Oh, I'm just a mom right now."

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:51 That's it.

Codie Sanchez 17:51 "I'm just..." Which is also one of my pet peeves. I'm like, gosh. But that is my fault that I open up the question in a way that made them go automatically to a just answer.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:02 I, I think it's our fault.

Codie Sanchez 18:03 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:03 I think we're in charge of how people treat us.

Codie Sanchez 18:05 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:05 You cue people to how you want to be treated.

Codie Sanchez 18:07 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:07 And that's with the kinds of questions you ask, the kinds of words you use, how you're sh- holding your body language, and how you're using your voice.

Codie Sanchez 18:12 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:12 So if you want to be treated with more respect, more likability, you gotta spread it.

Codie Sanchez 18:16 Let's talk about that. If you want to be treated with more respect-

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:20 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 18:20 ... what do you do from a body language perspective?

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:23 Okay, so respect is a good one. So research has shown that 82% of our impressions of people are based on two traits: warmth and competence.

Codie Sanchez 18:34 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:35 It's not how attractive you are. It's not how tall you are. It's not how rich you are. It's not how successful you are. It's literally how fast can you signal, "I'm a friend, trust, and you can rely on me," competence. And so from a body language perspective, the faster you can signal those two things, the moment you hop on screen, the moment you get on a video, the moment you enter a room, the more people like you-

Codie Sanchez 18:56 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:56 ... and respect you.

Codie Sanchez 18:57 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 18:58 So it is a balance. So what I like to think about is like a recipe, is there are warmth non-verbal cues, and there are competent non-verbal cues. So warm cues, these make sense, right? Smiling, authentic smiling, a warm cue. Um, you're nodding.

Codie Sanchez 19:09 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:09 Nodding is a warmth cue.

Codie Sanchez 19:10 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:10 Right? When you do a triple nod, research shows that I will speak 67% longer.

Codie Sanchez 19:15 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:16 So when you're-

Codie Sanchez 19:17 So just going-

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:17 Mm, mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 19:18 ... oh, I gotta start adding all these.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:19 But, but not bobble-heading.

Codie Sanchez 19:21 Which is this?

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:22 No.

Codie Sanchez 19:23 Oh, right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:23 Right. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 19:24 Too much.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:24 Well, also that. That's also not good, [laughs] right?

Codie Sanchez 19:26 Well, that's too many.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:27 It's too much. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 19:28 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:29 So if you do a slow triple nod... Here, I'll demo it for you.

Codie Sanchez 19:31 Okay.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:32 The other person s- speaks 67% longer. So this is a mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 19:38 Stop. Okay.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:39 Right? That is a non-verbal dot dot dot. You're telling the other person, "I hear you. I see you. Tell me more." Now, the s- pace of this is also important, so you only want to do three-

Codie Sanchez 19:48 Mm-hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:48 ... and then pause, and you want to do them slowly. So slow is en- engaged and curious. Tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Fast is impatience. Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 19:57 Ooh, yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:58 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So a little secret here is if you want someone to, like, wrap it up or speed it up, not that you ever would, you can go, "Uh-huh, mm-hmm, mm-hmm." It's literally a signal for them to, to stop talking. So warmth cues, smiling, nodding, a head tilt. So watch the difference between a, a still face and a head tilt. So if I were to say, "I have some news. I have some news," a head tilt immediately softens you. It immediately adds more warmth. That's a, a small warmth cue.

Codie Sanchez 20:25 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:25 Um, competence cues, there's, there's, like, 15 of them, but that, those are the easy ones. The competence cues, some of my favorites are, like, a steeple, right?

Codie Sanchez 20:33 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:33 So even this is just more wise and competent if it feels natural to you.

Codie Sanchez 20:36 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:36 Like, some people look like... Like, don't be Mr. Burns.

Codie Sanchez 20:38 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:38 You know? Like-

Codie Sanchez 20:39 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:39 ... right? It's like you [laughs] gotta kinda be careful. This is on my book cover, and you love it, I know.

Codie Sanchez 20:43 I do love your book cover.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:44 [laughs] Right? But I'm not s- so you have to be careful with this one, but that's a high-competence cue.

Codie Sanchez 20:47 No, but that, because your book cover, you've got the crossed legs.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:51 Uh-huh.

Codie Sanchez 20:51 So it's like you're dainty.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:52 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 20:52 But you're also smart.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:54 Dainty.

Codie Sanchez 20:54 Yeah, 'cause-

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:55 Warm

Codie Sanchez 20:55 ... you crossed your ankles.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:56 Warm, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 20:56 I feel like I always think dainty when I think dainty.

Vanessa Van Edwards 20:58 Warm. Dainty? I'll take it.

Codie Sanchez 20:59 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:00 Take it.

Codie Sanchez 21:00 Um, it's a great book, by the way. The book's name is Cues-

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:03 Thank you. Thank you

Codie Sanchez 21:03 ... to give you a little plug.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:04 Yes, but so-

Codie Sanchez 21:04 All of this is in there.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:05 So the, the cover is literally a perfect balance of warmth and competence-

Codie Sanchez 21:09 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:09 ... as are most of my social media posts.

Codie Sanchez 21:11 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:11 So if you look at my Instagram grid, it's warm, competent, warm, competent.

Codie Sanchez 21:14 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:14 Maybe it'll be

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:15 warm, warm, competent, competent. We'll have a study post and then a post of me being silly-

Codie Sanchez 21:19 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:19 ... and then a funny meme and then a really hard-hitting study. So even in your business, like... Oh, can I give a business example?

Codie Sanchez 21:24 Please.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:25 Okay, so Casper Mattresses is an interesting one. Like, they kind of took the mattress market by storm, and, uh, they could have had better mattresses, sure, but their marketing was a perfect blend of warmth and competence. They, on their webpage, they would have, like, kids bouncing on clouds, and they would have, "Our research scientists in the Casper Lab," and it was a whole science section. And they would have, like, a quote from Vogue about, like, the best night's sleep ever, and then they would have, um, uh, someone in a lab coat, like b- like, you know, testing a mattress.

Codie Sanchez 21:53 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:53 It, literally you could count the warmth and competence, and that-

Codie Sanchez 21:56 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 21:56 ... for a human, when they are looking for trust, reliability, trust, reliability, is im- immediately helpful. We can do the same thing with our words. So for example, I love to guess someone's warmth and competence based on their email sent folder. So a challenge for you is-

Codie Sanchez 22:12 Oh, no. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:12 Oh, no. [laughs] All right, we're gonna look at Codie's email sent folder. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 22:16 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:17 So you can go into their email sent folder, and I count up the warm words and the competent words. Warm words are words that s- trigger oxytocin, that makes us feel collaborative, so they're words like best, both, happy, together, cheers, collaborate, team. Words that are competent make us want to get it done. They're words like motivation, efficient, power, through, goal, mastery, achieve.

Codie Sanchez 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:38 So I can tell you how your team rates you on warmth-

Codie Sanchez 22:40 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:40 ... and competence based on your email sent folder. Emojis are warm.

Codie Sanchez 22:44 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:45 Exclamation points are warm.

Codie Sanchez 22:46 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:47 Um, data, charts, graphs, numbers are competent. And so when you're writing important emails, not all the emails, there should be a blend of both warmth and competence. Your LinkedIn profile should be a blend of warmth and competence. Your landing pages should be a blend of warmth and competence.

Codie Sanchez 23:01 I think I over-index on the competence.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 23:03 [laughs] Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:04 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 23:05 Although I think it's really interesting because you talked from a social perspective. We've noticed that lately too, that I am so high on the, uh, indexing for competence-

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:14 Competence

Codie Sanchez 23:14 ... or what Chris Voss would call assertive too-

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:17 Yes

Codie Sanchez 23:17 ... that, um, when people meet me to interview me, we've had, I had two... Well, actually, I think Chloe said it to me. She met me, and she was like, "Gosh, you're actually, you're really nice and warm and kind," and I was like-

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:27 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 23:28 ... "Yes." [laughs] But they-

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:29 Thank you.

Codie Sanchez 23:30 Yeah, it's a common thing-

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:32 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 23:32 ... that, because my, my content is very serious.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:34 Yes. The same thing, I was told, um, "You're so much nicer than you look."

Codie Sanchez 23:38 Yeah. [laughs] I get that too. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:40 Why do you think I wear pink?

Codie Sanchez 23:41 It's actually very smart.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:43 It's very... You have to balance, and so this is it. This is what's really important, is Oprah Winfrey is a good example of this. So Oprah Winfrey has a very, very high balance of warmth and competence.

Codie Sanchez 23:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:51 And we like people who have b- high of both, right? But she's has a dial, right? It's like a thermostat, right? Like, we like it between 68 and 72. I don't want you to dial all the way, but, like, when Oprah Winfrey is with, like, a victim, she is crying with them. She is touching them.

Codie Sanchez 24:07 Holding, yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 24:07 She's leaning in. Those are all warmth cues. When she's with, like, a political commentor, commentator, she changes. Her cues are much more competent. She's quieter.

Codie Sanchez 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 24:16 She's less facially expressive. She makes more eye contact. She's still with her body. She has less gestures. Those are all competent gestures. So you can also dial, and this is what I think the most advanced leaders do, and Jamie Siminoff learned to do this, going back to Ring. He learned to do this. I think that was a, a bad pitch in Shark Tank, which by the way, it's not obviously bad. Like, if you were to go watch the pitch, you would be like, "I don't know what happened, but something happened."

Codie Sanchez 24:39 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 24:39 I think he learned how to pitch with both warmth and competence, as anyone can. Look at your slide deck, right? In your slide deck, it should not be all numbers and competence. In fact, the research says, and this is a quote, "Competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious."

Codie Sanchez 24:55 Ooh.

Vanessa Van Edwards 24:55 People will be suspicious of your ideas and your numbers if you do not know how to add warmth cues, and that is what you are struggling with.

Codie Sanchez 25:02 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:02 Is you know instinctively, if I come across as too hard or too competent, people are suspicious of me. And they are.

Codie Sanchez 25:08 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:08 And that is because we have to have a balance of both.

Codie Sanchez 25:11 Yeah. It, it goes to trustworthiness. Yeah, a lot of our presentations we use memes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:15 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 25:16 Because memes are an easy way-

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:17 Warmth

Codie Sanchez 25:17 ... to transfer somebody else's warmth to you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:19 Warmth, exactly right.

Codie Sanchez 25:19 You know, I'm not the greatest joke teller of all time.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:22 You're good. You're funny.

Codie Sanchez 25:22 Oh, thanks.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:23 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 25:23 But then when I can add somebody else's meme in there-

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:26 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 25:26 ... then it softens up sort of the hard blows of business that are a reality.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:29 Okay, like, let's get practical, right?

Codie Sanchez 25:31 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:31 So, like, in your presentation, I like to switch-

Codie Sanchez 25:33 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:33 ... a warmth something into your presentation, like, every two minutes.

Codie Sanchez 25:36 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:36 So this is very practical. So competence in a presentation, data, charts, graphs, research, science, study. Mm. Warmth, memes, GIFs, demos, fuzzy wuzzy social proof, personal stories.

Codie Sanchez 25:51 Quotes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:52 Quotes. Good, yes, yes.

Codie Sanchez 25:53 I love quotes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:54 Quotes, yes.

Codie Sanchez 25:54 'Cause they make you feel something immediately, and you don't have to come up with it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:57 And it's warm.

Codie Sanchez 25:57 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:57 Right. So you're, if you can take that list, and you can just make it so that they're even, your presentations will be so much stronger. Same thing on your social media, same thing in your promos, same thing in your ads.

Codie Sanchez 26:07 Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, I always wondered, you know, one of the fun things I like to do is go into Facebook Ad Library, and you can watch-

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:16 Okay

Codie Sanchez 26:16 ... in my spare time. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:17 Okay. [laughs] Okay.

Codie Sanchez 26:18 You, and you, so you can go into Facebook Library and you can see all the ads that somebody's running-

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:22 Okay

Codie Sanchez 26:22 ... of any business.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:23 Okay. What? Okay, cool.

Codie Sanchez 26:24 And so if you want to try to understand the psychology of selling-

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:27 Yes

Codie Sanchez 26:27 ... of any business-

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:28 Yes

Codie Sanchez 26:28 ... it's really easy to see in Facebook. And if the ads have been running for a long period of time, you know that the ad has been working.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:34 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 26:34 So if you look at the brand-new ads, I don't know, maybe they work, maybe they don't, but if they've been running for a few months, okay-

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:40 Yes

Codie Sanchez 26:40 ... this ad is working.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:41 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 26:41 And then I like to go into the ad and see, well, why is it working? And oftentimes it's not what you expect.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:48 No.

Codie Sanchez 26:48 It's like, oh, this had something

Codie Sanchez 26:50 catchy in it, and it was some sort of warmth and entertainment, and then finally it got to the content.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:55 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 26:55 It finally, it got to the close.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:57 So this is the curse of smart people.

Codie Sanchez 26:58 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:59 This is why we have so many failed entrepreneurs and failed businesses, is because they're super smart.

Codie Sanchez 27:03 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:04 And that is actually a problem in communication.

Codie Sanchez 27:07 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:07 Super smart people have great ideas. They have data to back it up. They have the whole plan. But if you do not know how to pra- pitch your idea or package your idea with warmth, people will not believe it.

Codie Sanchez 27:18 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:18 And so smart people rely very heavily on, "I'm gonna put an ad and say, you know, 50% returns, or 20% cheaper than the competitor." But people don't buy from just competence alone. They have to trust you first.

Codie Sanchez 27:30 Yeah. That's such a good point. You know, speaking of, of trust, it also reminds me that as, the bigger you get-

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:36 Mm

Codie Sanchez 27:36 ... the bigger the target that you have.

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 27:38 And, you know, we love David until he becomes Goliath.

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:41 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 27:42 And one thing that we've talked about before that I thought was genius is thinking about how somebody like Taylor Swift-

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:47 Mm

Codie Sanchez 27:47 ... stays so high on the warmth scale-

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:51 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 27:51 ... when she is a billionaire, she is highly competent-

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:54 Gorgeous

Codie Sanchez 27:55 ... and she gets, you know, her tickets are 5X more expensive than anybody else

Vanessa Van Edwards 27:59 Totally

Codie Sanchez 27:59 ... and yet people love her. Can you talk a little bit about-

Vanessa Van Edwards 28:02 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 28:02 ... what you see in T-Swift?

Vanessa Van Edwards 28:04 So you're, you're so generous, because actually, I was totally making fun of T-Swift. Okay, I love her, but I was making fun of her because she does a specific non-verbal cue that just kills me. Because it is, I, I... Here's what it is. Whenever she walks into a room, you watch her documentary, half of the documentary is her doing what I call the humble cue, which is this. [sighs]

Codie Sanchez 28:27 It's true.

Vanessa Van Edwards 28:28 And so she's in a stadium, a sold-out stadium with a, like, whatever, 50,000 people, and she's like, "How did you all get here? Oh, my gosh, for me?" That, we love it.

Codie Sanchez 28:40 We love it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 28:40 We love it. Because she's, we're like, she's so successful, she so knows her stuff, but look at how humble she is. Right? This is why these documentaries are working. This is why so many people are doing them, is because what do you see? You say, "Oh, he, there's, he's so successful. He's on stage." But then you see him, like, making his own coffee.

Codie Sanchez 28:57 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 28:57 Oh, he makes his own coffee. Oh, he spills a little. Aw. Like, there are studies on this where Dr. Richard Wiseman had a, a model try to sell a blender in a mall. Okay? A blender. And he did two trials of this experiment, one where she did a demo of the blender. "Hi, good morning, folks. We're gonna demo this blender for you. Strawberry, banana. Zshh. Here's the blender. Smoothies for all." Okay? A perfect presentation. Then she ha- The second version of this, same words, same smoothies, same everything, but she spills the smoothie. "Hi, everyone. So happy to sell you this blender. Strawberry, bana- Oh, no. Here's that smoothie for you. So sorry." The blender, when she made the mistake, she sold so many more of that blender when she made the mistake, because I think people were like, "Real."

Codie Sanchez 29:45 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 29:45 Vulnerable. It's okay. And so when I talk about warmth, it's also vulnerability.

Codie Sanchez 29:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 29:52 It's also admitting the problem or the mistake, or making a mistake, or not having a perfect pitch, which for smart people, they are allergic to.

Codie Sanchez 29:59 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 29:59 Okay?

Codie Sanchez 30:00 Yeah, it's true.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:01 Allergic to it.

Codie Sanchez 30:01 Like, I have so much respect for Mel Robbins.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:04 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 30:05 Because she's so good at showing her vulnerabilities-

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:09 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 30:09 ... and being honest about some of the stuff that's going on in the world.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:12 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 30:12 And I think that people see that and go, "Okay, if she's willing to share that-"

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:16 She must be real.

Codie Sanchez 30:16 "She must be real."

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:17 Can I tell you how she does it also?

Codie Sanchez 30:18 Yes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:18 So she does it verbally, but here's a non-verbal cue that Mel uses, and I shouldn't make fun of Mel for this. She's the only other interview I did this year other than you. So this is her non-verbal cue. Ready? [sighs] "Guys, guys, can I just tell you this one tip?" She self-touches her face.

Codie Sanchez 30:35 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:35 Probably just, like, totally messing everything up.

Codie Sanchez 30:36 No, you look great.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:37 So the nonverbal-

Codie Sanchez 30:37 Why does that matter?

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:38 Okay, so self-touching your face is a cue of anxiety or nervousness. It is also a vulnerability. So you will notice that I think Mel Robbins touches her face-

Codie Sanchez 30:48 I see

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:48 ... far more than any other influencer, and you know what? We love it.

Codie Sanchez 30:52 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:52 We love it because we know instinctively, I think Cornell found there were four behaviors, nonverbal behaviors, that trigger untrustworthiness, like, make you not want to trust a person. Touching the face or the hair is one of them, uh, touching the stomach, uh, rubbing your arms, and I believe lack of eye contact. They just signal distrust. So when Mel gets on video and she self-touches, it immediately makes you think, "Oh, is she nervous? Oh, me too."

Codie Sanchez 31:17 Ah. Wait, but how does that work? So this usually makes you not like somebody, or not trust somebody.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:22 I said, I said signals untrustworthiness, because we think of make- they're nervous. But if she's giving us really competent advice, we're like, "Oh, she's nervous, but she's giving us good advice."

Codie Sanchez 31:31 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:32 I want to be very clear, all these cues do not have to do with your actual trust.

Codie Sanchez 31:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:37 Right? Like, we're talking about perceptions of trust and competence, which are just as important as your actual trust and competence, and that's what I think a lot of smart people get wrong.

Codie Sanchez 31:45 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:46 Is they think, "I have the best system. I have the best business, and I'm trustworthy. Of course people will buy." And then they're shocked why no one buys, or they don't understand why their sales teams cannot close.

Codie Sanchez 31:55 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:56 It is because I listen in on these sales calls, and I can tell you down to the cue why they are not closing, and it is because they can have the best pitch in the world-

Codie Sanchez 32:04 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:04 ... the best script, but if they are giving away their competence, people will not believe them.

Codie Sanchez 32:09 Interesting. Yeah, and I think often when people try to sell in business, they try to maybe promise what they actually can deliver.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:19 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 32:20 Which is, like, a good night's sleep, Casper mattress.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:23 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 32:23 And people go, "That's too hard. There's no way you could possibly deliver that to me."

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:28 Yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 32:29 And so they almost oversell the thing that they actually do, but they'd be better off saying-

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:34 A pretty good night's sleep

Codie Sanchez 32:35 ... yeah, a little bit better than your last night's sleep, Casper's.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:38 Right. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 32:39 And people go-

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:40 Okay, that's believable

Codie Sanchez 32:40 ... "Actually, that's probably doable."

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:41 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 32:42 And I think that's a great-

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:43 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 32:43 ... that's a great point in marketing and sales, too.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:46 I think that their tagline was something like, um, "Reliable prices with, uh, s- science-backed engineering."

Codie Sanchez 32:54 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:55 Like, even their tagline was the perfect blend of warmth and competence words, and they, they were very honest with, like, "Here are how our engineers have tested this mattress," and so you could kinda see the process. So another way you can add warmth is you can show behind the scenes. Like, I think that, like, when you're showing behind the scenes, people are like, "Oh, she's real."

Codie Sanchez 33:11 Totally.

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:11 And so, like, that's the other way, the other element you can add there is, like, real behind-the-scenes as well.

Codie Sanchez 33:15 Yeah, I don't think enough people, we talk about this a lot here, too, which is document, don't create.

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:20 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 33:20 And it's m- and it's really hard to do, actually, because you're in it, you're working, and but if you can actually document, "Okay, we're going to save a business today. Okay, we just closed on a deal right here."

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:30 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 33:30 Then people actually can see you doing it. In a world with the lowest trust levels since before the age of the internet-

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:37 Yes

Codie Sanchez 33:38 ... um, it's necessary.

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:39 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 33:40 So it's smart. Now, I want to talk a little bit about, um, like, I think a lot of times in first interactions, we're scared. We're scared to pitch. We're scared for an interview.

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:55 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 33:55 We're scared to sell.

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:56 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 33:56 Can you hide fear? Does it matter?

Vanessa Van Edwards 33:59 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 33:59 Can other people feel that?

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:01 You're not gonna like this answer very much.

Codie Sanchez 34:02 Oh, okay.

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:03 But, uh, our emotions are contagious, and so if you're afraid, people will pick up on it.

Codie Sanchez 34:07 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:08 So there's a study that changed the way that I think about this, which is they brought people into their lab, and they split them up into two different groups. One group, they wore sweat suits and ran on a treadmill, so that they got sweat into this suit, and they collected the sweat. Second group, they said, "You're gonna skydive for the first time," put them in sweat suits and pushed them out of a plane. [laughs] They took the two samples of sweat, this is where it gets kinda gross.

Codie Sanchez 34:28 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:28 They asked unsuspecting participants to smell both of the sweat, they had no idea what they were smelling, in an fMRI machine. Everyone who smelled the fear sweat, the skydiving sweat, caught the fear. They had no idea what they were smelling, but their amygdala lit up where they were afraid. What this shows us is that when you are afraid, you are sending off all kinds of signals that you don't even realize.

Codie Sanchez 34:52 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:52 Not only your face, not only your voice, but also even your chemical physiology.

Codie Sanchez 34:57 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:57 And so this is why I think it's really critically important for my introverted entrepreneurs, my introverted business owners, is you gotta get yourself right before you walk into a room.

Codie Sanchez 35:04 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:04 And you gotta know your stuff.

Codie Sanchez 35:06 Mm, mm, mm, mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:06 Right? Like, no one can fake warmth and competence. We can, I can give you the cues to help, but if you are truly afraid that you don't know your numbers or you don't know your stuff, people are going to pick up on it. That, I think, is the definition of inauthenticity, right?

Codie Sanchez 35:17 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:17 Is like you're faking a number or you're faking warmth with someone. Now, I will say that I think that we can convert our fear into different kinds of social energy. So it's very important for people to understand, are you an introvert, ambivert, or extrovert? Most people think of just introvert and extrovert. There's actually a third category, and most people are ambiverts. And you have to be very precise about what causes you fear or drains your battery-

Codie Sanchez 35:43 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:43 ... and what gives you energy. For example, I am an ambivert. I can kinda switch between the two. I know who gives me energy. Like, I leave being like, "Yes." Like, when we hang out with our group of girlfriends, I feel energized after. I don't feel drained. Whereas I have certain people where I'm, like, in a coma afterwards.

Codie Sanchez 35:59 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:59 Right?

Codie Sanchez 36:00 We've all felt that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:00 Right. [laughs] So you wanna know, who are the people? What are the places? Who are the teammates or the tasks that drain you the fastest? And then you should divide your energy like a social battery.

Codie Sanchez 36:10 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:11 That helps conquer the fear, because being a little bit afraid 'cause you're nervous is not a bad thing. But being drained and afraid, that's a deal breaker.

Codie Sanchez 36:19 That's a great point. So basically, you could, even if you're scared-

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:22 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 36:22 ... you could at least be prepared to be scared.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:24 Exactly, and you can know, okay, I'm bringing my favorite team member, I'm bringing my favorite wing woman. I love my deck. I just redesigned my slides. It's gorgeous.

Codie Sanchez 36:31 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:31 I have warmth and competence. That's gonna make me feel good. So even though you're a little bit afraid pitching out there, you know your stuff. You know your deck. You have your wing woman, and you're doing it at an ideal time for you, right? Like, y- you can begin to, we can game our energy in that way, and that's really important on teams as well. Like, you should know your team members. Who's introverted and who's extroverted on your team? Who's ambivert on your team?

Codie Sanchez 36:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:51 Your introverts, never put them on the spot for collaboration.

Codie Sanchez 36:53 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 36:54 That's an insult to them If you want them to collaborate or share their ideas, send them a, an email ahead of time and say, "Hey, tomorrow we're doing a strategy session. I'm gonna be talking about some big ideas for X in the fall. I would love your ideas on how we can do things differently."

Codie Sanchez 37:07 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 37:08 That gives them 24 hours to prepare for that, prepare for it, as opposed to bump, you know, s- in the room, they're gonna trigger fear, right?

Codie Sanchez 37:14 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 37:14 You're gonna say, "What are your ideas on X for the fall?" And they're gonna be like, "Huh?" Not because they're not smart, but because they're in a situation that makes them feel uncomfortable.

Codie Sanchez 37:21 What personality tests do you use for your team in order to tell who is what?

Vanessa Van Edwards 37:25 Okay. So I highly recommend if you're gonna hire, do behavioral interviewing. So that's less like skill and strength-based-

Codie Sanchez 37:32 Mm-hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 37:32 ... and that's more behavior-based.

Codie Sanchez 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 37:33 Um, and my favorite practice for hiring is doing alphabet work. So this is basically figuring out what is your A, B, C, D work, and what is their A, B, C, D work. Very simply, this is, your A work is work that you are better at than most people. Like, what are you better at than most people? Where do you hit flow? What are you most productive in? A work, tasks and communication. B work. B work is the trick. B work is what trips up my smart people. B work you're pretty good at, but you're not great at it. You're not better than everyone at it, and you can get away with it, but you kinda dread it.

Codie Sanchez 38:06 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 38:07 C work, you're average, you do it just like everyone else. It kind of clunky, it kinda takes you a while, and you can get by. D work is work you are terrible at. You're worse than most people, and it's gonna look terrible. The mistake that people make when they hire is they hire people who have their A work, and then they hire the person, and then you both want the A work.

Codie Sanchez 38:25 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 38:26 You are better off hiring someone who is opposite to you. Their D work is your A work, your A work is their D work. Or if you really, really wanna be efficient, hire someone who's, you could give away your B work to. B work, I think, slows most people down. We were talking about this earlier, is if you can give away your B work to give, give more time for A work, you're so much more efficient. And so you wanna think very strategically about what's the behavior of how people are thinking.

Codie Sanchez 38:51 Yeah, that's really good. You know, in that vein, I think a lot of times in our businesses it's not just are they competent, and can this person come in and do the task-

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:04 Yes, not skill-based. That's skill-based

Codie Sanchez 39:05 ... which would be A, B, C, or D.

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:06 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 39:07 But it's also who are they as a human?

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:09 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 39:09 And I think, I, I think about this in a way like, you know, what is better to have in your business with,

Codie Sanchez 39:16 as a coworker? Is it better to have a toxic coworker-

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:19 Mm

Codie Sanchez 39:19 ... or is it better to have sort of a fake coworker that you're a little ambivia- ambivalent with? Like, what's the, what's the difference between the two?

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:27 Okay. I have a very strong opinion on this, which is I prefer a toxic coworker to a frenemy.

Codie Sanchez 39:32 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:32 I prefer a toxic worker to, to, to a fake friend. Here's why. When we know someone is toxic or difficult, we are very clear in our head. We don't go to lunch with them. We don't need to catch up on the weekend. We know their strength and their skills, and that's what we go to them for.

Codie Sanchez 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:46 And then we create parameters around their difficulty. When you're fake with someone, or you're ambivalent, and I call this, like, a fake friend, when you're like, "Do I like them?" [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 39:55 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 39:56 "Are they doing a good job? Do they, do they like me?" Right? Like, this is people, it's also with friends, who you're like, "Was that an neg? Like, was that-

Codie Sanchez 40:04 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 40:04 ... passive-aggressive-

Codie Sanchez 40:05 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 40:05 ... or are they actually supporting me?" That actually drains you far faster than a toxic person. There was a study about this. So they did it with police officers, and they categorized everyone's relationships in this precinct, and they found that the officers who had more ambivalent relationships, like relationships with their coworkers where they were like, "Shh, do I wanna go to lunch with them, or would I rather eat a sandwich alone?" Ambivalent, the more ambivalent relationships they had, the worse their happiness was, the wor- more sick days they took, the lower their workplace satisfaction. Actually, police officers who had more toxic coworkers were totally okay, because they knew, "That's not my person."

Codie Sanchez 40:39 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 40:40 So I think that a lot of this, especially as adults, is like, who are my people? Great. That's my person, and that's my person, and that's not my person, and that's not my person. When you are very clear on that, that actually helps you streamline your social energy. If you are not sure if someone likes you, if you are not sure that someone's not doing a good job, it's time to make a change.

Codie Sanchez 40:56 Hmm. That's so interesting. Have you ever thought that it wasn't, uh, working with somebody or that they weren't the right person, made a decision, made a change, let them go, moved on, and regretted it?

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:08 No.

Codie Sanchez 41:08 I know. Me neither.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:09 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 41:09 Isn't that crazy? It's actually fascinating, because I've asked-

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:12 Never

Codie Sanchez 41:12 ... every leader every time that question.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:15 No.

Codie Sanchez 41:16 Never have I had a leader-

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:17 Never

Codie Sanchez 41:17 ... go, "Dang it, I wish I hadn't let that person go."

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:19 [laughs] Never.

Codie Sanchez 41:19 "Dang it, I wish I still hung out with that person." Never.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:21 Same, yeah, same with friends.

Codie Sanchez 41:22 Why do we wait so long-

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:23 Ugh

Codie Sanchez 41:24 ... and, like, beat ourselves up so much about it-

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:26 'Cause we're human

Codie Sanchez 41:26 ... if that's the answer?

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:28 I mean, we're human. We feel bad.

Codie Sanchez 41:29 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:29 You know?

Codie Sanchez 41:30 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:30 And also, like, we're hopeful.

Codie Sanchez 41:31 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:31 Right? Like, I feel, I am fundamentally a believer in the good of human beings, and so we really wanna make it work. Like, we really try, and we hope that they're gonna change, or we're gonna change. But you know what? You're doing them a disservice.

Codie Sanchez 41:44 Yeah. I've realized the exact same thing. And often you don't, like, you don't need to have a d- God complex. If it's not working out for them with you, they are probably perfectly suited for something else and somebody else, and you're holding them back by keeping them with you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 41:57 That's how I feel. [paper rustles]

Codie Sanchez 42:00 We just did something really cool. If you've ever thought about buying a business or wanna understand what the word seller financing mean, you've got to try this. So basically, you fill out this application right here, and we sort every single human who comes through this list to the right tool and resource for them when it comes to buying a business, when it comes to finding financing for buying a business, and when it comes to building a business. So you get directed to our member of experience, or one of our members of experience, and they find the right tools and resources for you. Some of this stuff is just free. Like, oh, hey, you don't understand seller financing? Here's an article for you. Some of it is, wow, you really are ready for the 303 level. You should do the workshop. Some of it is like, you know what? Start here with our first little entry guide. I wanna make sure that I get every single human only what they need when they need it to become an owner. You might like this. Hit the link in the description below, and we will sort you to figure out what kind of business buyer are you. [paper rustles] So let's say

Codie Sanchez 42:57 you are hiring.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:00 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 43:01 And you want to figure out if somebody's lying to you-

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:04 Mm

Codie Sanchez 43:04 ... or not.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:05 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 43:06 How do you do that?

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:06 Okay, my favorite topic. So I love lie detection research. In fact, we've done a lot of research in our lab on, we've had people submit videos of themselves lying. We have a whole process-

Codie Sanchez 43:15 Wow

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:15 ... for doing it, and then we analyze them for cues, looking for patterns. And there is no Pinocchio's nose. There's no one cue that says someone's lying. But there are statistical cues to deceit. There are cues that we saw over and over again in the lying answers.

Codie Sanchez 43:26 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:27 So here are a couple of those lie detection cues. So, um, the first, most obvious one is, um, when something's incongruent. So someone says something, but their body shows another. So I'll give you a really good example.

Codie Sanchez 43:37 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:38 One of the challenges we have them do is two truths and a lie, where they say two truths about themselves and a lie. On the lie, so many people shook their head no.

Codie Sanchez 43:46 Whoa.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:46 So if, you'll see this, if you're like, "So what, what do you think of the new girl?" "You know, she's, she's great." [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 43:53 [laughs] Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 43:56 So a nod, not in India, Pakistan, and Bulgaria, so there, that's a cultural note on that one. I try to be careful with my universality. But for nodding, if someone says yes, they should be shaking their head yes or neutral.

Codie Sanchez 44:07 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:07 If someone says no, they should be shaking their head no, and you will often catch a lie when someone is incongruent. When they're like, like my daughter, I'll be like, "Did you take an extra cookie?" "Um, no."

Codie Sanchez 44:20 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:21 Right? And she'll shake her head yes. And I'm like, "Are you sure?"

Codie Sanchez 44:23 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:23 Right, like I know. Another one is, another incongruent is people will flash a microexpression that is counter to what they're saying.

Codie Sanchez 44:30 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:30 Like a big one with lying is disgust. Lying makes us feel dirty.

Codie Sanchez 44:35 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:35 We do not like to lie. We know it can get us into trouble. And so oftentimes when people lie, they flash a disgust microexpression. Here's what a disgust microexpression looks like, when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth like this.

Codie Sanchez 44:48 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:48 So you'll see, it's very unnatural if you try it.

Codie Sanchez 44:49 Yeah, it doesn't feel very good.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:50 Like you don't do this naturally.

Codie Sanchez 44:51 Mm-mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 44:51 But here's what it looks like when someone's lying. "So what do you think about the new girl?" "Yeah, you know, um, she's great. Yeah." And they're holding that disgust expression, which means not really. Not really. And that's your opportunity. So when you see something incongruent, you say, "You know, it's totally fine if like you're not jiving. Like I know it takes a little bit of time. Do you have any concerns?"

Codie Sanchez 45:12 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:12 Usually just one question that clarifies gives them permission to tell you the truth.

Codie Sanchez 45:18 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:18 And so you want to look for incongruent nods. You want to look for incongruent facial expressions. Or like the big obvious one is a fake smile when someone says they're happy. This is important for sales and important for hiring, right?

Codie Sanchez 45:28 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:28 So if someone says, "Yeah, I would be so happy to work here."

Codie Sanchez 45:30 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:32 [laughs] Right? And their smile is on the bottom half of their face. The only true indicator of a smile is when these upper cheek muscles are activated. So anyone can fake smile, right? I can do this all day long and not actually feel happy. But only n- 1 in 10 people can consciously activate these muscles up here.

Codie Sanchez 45:47 What if you get Botox?

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:49 Hard.

Codie Sanchez 45:49 [laughs] So you might never be able to tell if they're happy or not.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:52 Hard. Don't go to California.

Codie Sanchez 45:53 Although I have a lot of expression right now.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:55 Watch out. [laughs] You got a lot of expression.

Codie Sanchez 45:56 Yeah, I'm overdue.

Vanessa Van Edwards 45:56 Also, like I don't think you can actually Botox your entire cheek.

Codie Sanchez 45:59 No pro- well, I bet you could.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:01 Well, hear me out.

Codie Sanchez 46:01 But I don't think you should.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:03 Any activation up here is, is good, is a good indicator of, of, of happiness.

Codie Sanchez 46:07 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:07 Because, so if someone, this is important I think also for like looking for authenticity. So right, if someone's like, "Yeah, you know, I just, I love your company, and I've just been following you for years, and I just think this is like a dream job."

Codie Sanchez 46:19 Do a real one. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:20 Okay.

Codie Sanchez 46:21 Do a real one for me.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:22 I love your company.

Codie Sanchez 46:23 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:23 I just, I think it's so amazing. I've been following you for years.

Codie Sanchez 46:27 Yeah, interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:28 Right? Like that hit my upper cheek muscles. I can consciously activate muscles 'cause I've trained them, but a lot of people cannot. And so you're looking for like why did she say she was happy but she wasn't actually happy?

Codie Sanchez 46:38 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:38 Same thing with contempt. So I think this is the most powerful of the microexpressions. It's one of my favorite cues. It's a one-sided mouth raise. So this smirk.

Codie Sanchez 46:47 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:48 Uh, first of all, make sure you don't have it in your profile pictures. Uh, that is a microexpression of contempt.

Codie Sanchez 46:53 Whoa.

Vanessa Van Edwards 46:53 So negativity, disdain, scorn. So if you're with someone and you say, "You know, the, the, the benefits package actually only includes about seven vacation days. Are you okay with that?" "Yeah, yeah, that's fine."

Codie Sanchez 47:05 Not, not okay.

Vanessa Van Edwards 47:06 Not fine.

Codie Sanchez 47:07 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 47:07 Not fine. You're gonna get pushback on that. That's gonna create resentment. Contempt is a beast of an emotion because it is the seed of disrespect. So Dr. John Gottman, marriage and family counselor, he did a huge research experiment on married couples. He wanted to know if he could predict divorce. He filmed these couples. He did in-depth history of these couples. He followed them for years. He found there was one single indicator of which couple would get divorced, and it was in the initial intake interview, one member of the couple showed contempt towards the other. So I can watch a silent video of a couple and tell you with pretty good accuracy if they're gonna get divorced. He can watch a video, a silent video of a couple, and predict with 93.7% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years. And that is because contempt, when it comes up, it's a better than, it's scorn. If it's not addressed, it festers and it grows, and that's how you get at the end of a marriage people can't even look at each other.

Codie Sanchez 47:58 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 47:58 And so if you have an employee or a friend or a partner who is showing contempt at you or something you say, immediately pause and address it. What can we do here? How are you really feeling about this? Is there anything you want to tell me?

Codie Sanchez 48:10 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:11 That is an opportunity for you to find out what is really going on.

Codie Sanchez 48:15 Brilliant. So you no- you notice that somebody in your company-

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:18 Yes

Codie Sanchez 48:18 ... has contempt.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:19 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 48:20 Because they're doing something like this.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:21 Smirk.

Codie Sanchez 48:21 They're doing a fake smile.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:22 One-sided, we have fake smile, one-sided mouth raise, yep, mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 48:25 And then the next thing that you do is you note it, and without going direct at it, you don't say, "You look mm."

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:32 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 48:32 You say-

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:33 You, you can try that, but not gonna go great.

Codie Sanchez 48:34 Yeah. You say what?

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:36 Okay, so you have two options here, right? So you can just note it as a leader, especially if it's like in a team meeting.

Codie Sanchez 48:40 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:40 You just noted it, right? And also what it's about, sometimes people show contempt because they had a bad day.

Codie Sanchez 48:46 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:46 Right, like maybe you mentioned the weekend, and they don't like what they have planned for the weekend. So it's only if it's relevant to something that you can actually do or change.

Codie Sanchez 48:53 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 48:53 Also, you might not be able to change something, and you should just note, okay- They're gonna not feel good about that. Then you have the choice of how are you gonna pursue. I personally like just information gathering, right? So, "Hey, I just wanted to follow up with you on the meeting," either by email or in person, whichever you prefer. "How are you feeling about this change? How are you feeling about the update? I just wanted to check in with you and see how everything's going. Does- do you have any questions for me?" Right? Like, that open-ended is step one. Step two is-

Codie Sanchez 49:19 What do they usually say at that point? Do they usually-

Vanessa Van Edwards 49:21 You- oh my gosh. Usually they're like, "Ugh, thank goodness you asked me, because let me tell you, I am not happy about this new rollout," and-

Codie Sanchez 49:28 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 49:28 ... right? Um, so that's, that's option one, and almost always that works. The second option is you can try again. So you can be like, you could bring up the option again, "I just wanna go over it, make sure it all makes sense." Sometimes people are contemptuous when they're confused.

Codie Sanchez 49:41 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 49:41 You get some people who are like, "Why don't I understand this? Ugh."

Codie Sanchez 49:45 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 49:45 They're contemptuous about it. So sometimes just re-explaining it again, you don't see the contempt, good. Right? So oftentimes it can even be a clarity issue. Like, um, sometimes a, a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, "So what's your business? What do you do?" And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years.

Codie Sanchez 50:05 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:05 And you see people like, "Okay. Cool."

Codie Sanchez 50:09 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:10 Right? Y- y- they're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand.

Codie Sanchez 50:14 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:14 And they're contemptuous of that.

Codie Sanchez 50:15 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:16 So if you're introducing yourself or you're explaining something and you're like, "Gosh, Vanessa, it's ta- I'm seeing this contempt everywhere," you are overcomplicating it.

Codie Sanchez 50:23 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:24 You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want, what you want from them.

Codie Sanchez 50:31 Now I find myself smirking because you've done it so many times. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:33 Don't do that. No, you're mirroring me.

Codie Sanchez 50:34 I'm mirroring you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:35 Okay, so that's a funny thing is also, like, mirror neurons are absolutely unconscious, and now you probably wanna smirk-

Codie Sanchez 50:40 I do

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:40 ... because you can see I'm activating these muscles, right?

Codie Sanchez 50:42 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:42 And you're even doing the same side.

Codie Sanchez 50:44 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:44 Which is kinda funny. So that is a very human response. So mirror neurons activate when we see someone make an emotion. This is another reason why emotions are contagious.

Codie Sanchez 50:52 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 50:53 If you show up and you are excited about your business, excited about whatever you're pitching, that, you're, you're showing so many cues of excitement, and then you can't help but smile with me. If you are fake smiling, you are less contagious. Dr. Barbara Wild found this. She showed people two pictures, one of people authentically smiling, and one of people fake smiling. Everyone who saw the happy, the real smile caught it. Their mood got better. Everyone who saw the fake smile, even if they didn't know it was a fake smile, had no behavior change.

Codie Sanchez 51:20 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 51:21 No mood change. So when we are truly happy,

Vanessa Van Edwards 51:24 we are literally more infectious. So yes, I think our mirror neurons are a big part of, like, getting yourself right, and also, like, love your business, love your people, 'cause it's real hard to fake it.

Codie Sanchez 51:33 Yeah. Let's talk about the difference between men and women.

Vanessa Van Edwards 51:35 Ooh, okay.

Codie Sanchez 51:36 Like, is there a difference in men and women in what you need to do to be attractive and likable?

Vanessa Van Edwards 51:41 Oh my goodness. Okay. So two, there's two questions here. So there is big differences between men and women, um, and that is because men and women send off inherently different cues and different signals. Typically, not always, women have higher voice tones.

Codie Sanchez 51:53 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 51:53 Right? Typically, not always, women use the question inflection more, and that's cultural, right? A lot of the times women have been taught, "Be liked."

Codie Sanchez 52:01 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 52:01 So they're, as parents, not always, but they're warmth, warmth, warmth. Whereas boys are taught, "Get ahead, be respected," so they're often taught competence, competence, competence. So in the research, by the way, the, this is Dr. Susan Fiske's research from Prince University, she found, she calls it the stereotype content model, which is that women by default are seen as higher in warmth and lower in competence. Men by default are seen as higher in competence and lower in warmth. Now I say great to know. Like, I would rather know that. That is why I dial up my competence in my presentations. When I'm corporate speaking, the name of my business is Science of People, right? Like, that is the most competent name that you could possibly have, because I know I'm fighting a default that's higher in warmth. But I also use that to my advantage sometimes as well. So it's just important to know that default for you, and then you can purposefully dial up as you wish. You know you have a high, a higher in competence, and you have to work towards warmth, right? Like, we gotta get you some pink.

Codie Sanchez 53:01 [laughs] Dude, we could.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:03 We gotta get you some lace, right? We gotta work on it.

Codie Sanchez 53:04 Oh, I'm doing the makeup now.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:05 And you're nodding. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 53:06 This is a lot.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:07 You know? But like, but that's, that puts us in control.

Codie Sanchez 53:10 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:10 So I'm like, yes, let's know these biases, because we are then in control of being able to dial up as we wish.

Codie Sanchez 53:17 Yeah. What, how do you see women do it wrong? 'Cause I've seen in the workplace at least, there was a generation where, uh, you know, they had to be tougher, right?

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:27 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 53:28 They had to show super high levels of competence.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:30 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 53:30 Otherwise they wouldn't get ahead.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:31 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 53:31 And then in my opinion, something went a little sideways there for a while-

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:35 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 53:35 ... where because we had to do that for so long, then we kinda over-corrected-

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:39 Mm

Codie Sanchez 53:39 ... and we went too hard.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:41 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 53:41 And so do you ever see common mistakes women make on the, the level of moving from warmth to competent?

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:49 Yes, and it is two words. Vocal fry.

Codie Sanchez 53:54 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 53:55 I don't know why, but there is an epidemic for women more specifically where they'll say a really great idea, but they don't deliver it well because they're a little bit nervous about it, and so they deliver it with a little bit of, like, vocal fry.

Codie Sanchez 54:07 Whoa, you're right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:08 So they change their voice tone so, like, it's more like here where you hear that kind of sizzling factor. Well, it's really hard to, like, believe an idea when it's delivered like this.

Codie Sanchez 54:18 It makes me wanna cry for some reason.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:19 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 54:19 I feel, like, uncomfortable for you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:21 I feel like getting watery. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 54:22 I'm like, oh.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:23 It's horrible.

Codie Sanchez 54:23 That's awful.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:24 And so I hear this all the time, and I think it's, like, a, a fear or a lack of assertiveness. And so that is one of the biggest things that women can do to immediately take back their vocal competence-

Codie Sanchez 54:35 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:36 ... is speak louder. If you have vocal fry and you're like, "How do I get rid of this?" Just speak a little bit louder.

Codie Sanchez 54:43 That's helpful.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:43 It immediately gets rid of it. That is because the moment you add more breath, it gets... Vocal fry, gross, is your vocal cords rubbing together like crickets.

Codie Sanchez 54:50 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 54:50 That's what it is. So the moment you add more breath, it gets rid of it. If you hear someone under-serving themselves, like an employee or someone is pitching and they're using vocal fry, say, "Hey, would you mind speaking up?" It will immediately get rid of their vocal fry So that, that's a really big cue that I see, um, and women don't understand why they're not being taken seriously, or they're being interrupted.

Codie Sanchez 55:08 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:08 Or they're being underestimated, or they're being passed over.

Codie Sanchez 55:10 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:11 And it's 'cause they're accidentally giving it away.

Codie Sanchez 55:13 What about men?

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:15 Hmm. Men. It's so hard to make universals with men. Ah, no, I know it. I know it. Ugh, this drives me crazy. Men think that to be powerful is to be stoic and unreadable.

Codie Sanchez 55:28 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:29 So recently especially, I see men who are like, "Ugh, Vanessa, I don't, I don't need cues. I have no cues."

Codie Sanchez 55:34 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:36 And they will be these leaders who are, they've gotten rid of all facial expressions. They've literally learned to keep their face completely still. They have no movement, no nodding, no head tilting. They literally sit and listen to ideas completely still with no give back. The problem with that is no cues is a cue in itself.

Codie Sanchez 55:53 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:53 We understand muting, like muting, as a problem with charisma.

Codie Sanchez 55:59 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 55:59 So when you are mute or you under-express, it immediately gets rid of your warmth and your competence. So I see these leaders who have trained themselves to go completely still, typically male, and they're like, "Why doesn't my team open up to me? Why is everyone quitting? Why can't I close these deals?" And I'm like, "It's because you are so still-faced," and this is something called the still face experiment. When you are with someone and I am completely still-faced and completely still body, it is so physically hard for you to open up to me. Like, if you were making no movement and no encouragement and no facial expressions, it would be physically hard for me to talk.

Codie Sanchez 56:31 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:32 And so a mistake that I see men make is they mute, and they don't realize that they are losing. It's costing them loyalty.

Codie Sanchez 56:37 Oh, yeah. I've been-

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:39 You've been there

Codie Sanchez 56:39 ... been there. Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:40 You're also, you're married to, to some, a man-

Codie Sanchez 56:43 Captain Stoic

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:43 ... and, and, yeah. It's-

Codie Sanchez 56:44 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:45 You know, 'cause a lot of military men are taught that to survive.

Codie Sanchez 56:48 Oh, for sure.

Vanessa Van Edwards 56:48 So I have so many amazing vets. We, we love our vets, and the problem they have is they've, they've gotten rid of all their cues because it was risky for them. And so they used no cues to survive-

Codie Sanchez 57:00 Yep

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:00 ... literally.

Codie Sanchez 57:01 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:01 And now they have to relearn, "What cues am I gonna pick to do this?" One of the first cues I teach men, by the way, if this is you, if you're like, "Oh, man, I totally, I totally under emote. Like, no one can read my face," people are gonna tell you you're cold, intimidating, hard to talk to. That's how you know that's you. One of the first cues I'm gonna teach you is, uh, visible hands. So this works also in the military, so a, a lot of folks that we have in the military, they'll use this 'cause, uh, visible hands is an immediate trust signal.

Codie Sanchez 57:26 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:26 It immediately warms you up, especially in your first impression. The moment you hop on a video call, "Morning. Good to see everyone."

Codie Sanchez 57:33 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:34 That one cue, it wasn't a lot of movement, but it's very easy to do. It's a greeting. It's warmth, right? When you're, when you're talking, the more you can have your pa- palms out, palms visible, we love to see a palm. It's an immediate warmth cue.

Codie Sanchez 57:44 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:44 And it's much easier typically for men than like, "Howdy," you know?

Codie Sanchez 57:48 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 57:48 Like, they like... They're, they're not gonna do that with their face. So like, you know, even like, "Let me tell you about an idea that we have coming up." Just that, just that one palm flash, a palm flash is really nice for like, "I'm open. I'm open to your ideas. I'm not concealing anything." It actually goes back to like a very primal part of our brain.

Codie Sanchez 58:05 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:05 We love to see a palm. Um, we, at our lab, I analyze thousands of hours of TED Talks with my team looking for patterns, and, um, what we found was the difference between the viral TED Talks and the least viral TED Talks were the most viral TED speakers use an average of over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes.

Codie Sanchez 58:22 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:22 Whereas the least viewed TED Talks used about 270 gestures in 18 minutes. What's happening here? The best TED Talks all start the same way, like this. "Today I want to talk to you about a big idea. We're gonna talk about three different ways it can change your life." Right?

Codie Sanchez 58:39 That, that is true. That is-

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:40 They're, they're all like that

Codie Sanchez 58:40 ... very true.

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:40 And it's also the TED Talk voice.

Codie Sanchez 58:42 Yeah. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:42 Right? Like there is a TED Talk voice.

Codie Sanchez 58:44 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 58:44 And like for some reason, like I can be like, "I'm gonna say something, and it's gonna be so important, and you just know that because of the words that I'm using." And that voice tone tells you that this is something that we have to remember because you know what? 30% of people believe that, right? Like, I'm not saying anything, but like [laughs] my vocal tone is cuing you. So there's a voice tone for TED, and there's a hand gesture for TED. First of all, the best TED Talkers, they greet every one on stage with an open gesture, right? Big open gesture. And then they typically align their gestures with their words.

Codie Sanchez 59:17 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:17 The most competent charismatic speakers are explaining their concepts to you with their visual gestures and their words.

Codie Sanchez 59:24 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:24 So if I were to say to you, "Codie, I have a really big idea. It's huge." You're like, "It's not, Vanessa. I can see how small it is."

Codie Sanchez 59:32 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:32 "It's really small." And that is because your brain believes my gesture more than my word.

Codie Sanchez 59:37 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:38 They've actually shown that gestures carry more weight than words 'cause it's hard to lie with our gestures. Like, let's try an experiment. I want you to say three, but hold up five. Okay, ready? Three.

Codie Sanchez 59:48 Three. Hard.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:49 Horribly hard. Hard.

Codie Sanchez 59:50 Hard to do.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:51 Hard.

Codie Sanchez 59:51 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:51 You can try that. It's so hard.

Codie Sanchez 59:52 I thought you gave me a little time. I pictured it in my head.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:54 Yeah. [laughs] That's right.

Codie Sanchez 59:54 And then I can do it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:55 It's, it, your brain does not like lying with gestures.

Codie Sanchez 59:57 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 59:58 So very charismatic speakers, they get on TED stage. They have visible gestures. This is for all my stoic men, right? You have a visible gesture, and then you're gonna align. So if you have three big ideas, just hold three big ideas, right? If we have phase one and phase two, we have those two phases. It's very easy for you to picture that. Politically, you'll notice that very good political speakers, they are literally outlining their talk for you with their gestures.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:18 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:19 If they have a really small idea, they're like, "This is no big deal. Look how small it is," right?

Codie Sanchez 1:00:23 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:23 If they're like, "This is a big problem," you're like, "Whoa, it's beach ball big. It's big."

Codie Sanchez 1:00:27 It's huge.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:28 Right? Right. If they're like... And you'll notice some people will be like, "You know, the other guy is over here," and every time they talk about those other guys, they show disgust.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:37 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:37 And like it's smelly, that hand, and you begin to associate that hand with those bad guys. And then he or she doesn't even have to say about those guys. You just know those horrible guys.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:46 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:47 So like that makes it easier for our brains to grok very complicated concepts. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think that that's, it's important-

Codie Sanchez 1:00:53 Oh, it's brilliant

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:53 ... to really think about both.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:55 How many views did your TED Talk get?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:00:56 Over four million, girl.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:58 Yeah, you were like one of the most viewed TED Talks of all time, right?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:00 Oh, all time. I don't know about all time, but that research got me my TED Talk.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:04 That's wild

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:04 ... that, so that, the research on TED and how we're contagious from stage is what got me. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:09 So one other thing that I wanna talk about is, do you feel like we nailed the how you got tricked into a bad hire?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:15 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:15 The ABCDE.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:16 I thought we did, too. I did it with a different question, but-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:18 I liked it. I liked it

Codie Sanchez 1:01:19 ... um, what about the biggest mistakes that people can make in communicating their ideas internally to their company, not just externally? So we talked about how to open up meetings. We talked about how to do pitches.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:33 But you and I obsess all day when we're talking-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:34 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:01:34 ... about how do we build bigger companies-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:36 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:01:36 ... and how do we sell internally, and I don't think a lot of people think about that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:39 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:40 So what do bad leaders do, or what mistakes do we make when we communicate internally?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:01:45 What people don't realize is that your internal marketing to your team is just as important as your external marketing. You've gotta get your team on board on an idea, and how you want, I think the mistake that people make is they frame ideas or initiatives or phases as, like, vitamins, as like, "This is good for the team." So, like, a vitamin idea would be like, "Guys, our software is really out of date, and we gotta switch to that new LMS. We gotta switch to that new, you know, CRM software. It's gonna be good for the team. I know it's gonna be painful, but we gotta do it." What team member is gonna be like, "Yeah. [laughs] Whoa"?

Codie Sanchez 1:02:18 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:02:19 You, as a business owner, can do vitamin things for your business. You can do things that are good for the business that have long-term, short-term pain, but long-term gain. Your team members aren't thinking that way. You're lucky if they're thinking six months to a year at your company.

Codie Sanchez 1:02:31 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:02:31 So you wanna try to emphasize, what is the painkiller? Why is this going to help us immediately? That's gonna help them get over that short-term pain. So the difference between a vitamin and painkiller, vitamin is like, "This is good for us. This is gonna be really, you know, we should do it." A painkiller is like, "You know how you're having lower close rates because we lose contact cards? That problem will be gone next week."

Codie Sanchez 1:02:50 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:02:50 "Literally gone."

Codie Sanchez 1:02:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:02:51 "Now, we're gonna have to set up some stuff. We're gonna have to do the back end, but that will no longer be a complaint for you. It fixes the problem in day one." Now, that's one feature of the new CRM or the new software, but if you know that as a complaint of your sales team, that's how you're going to your sales team. "That pain point you've been coming to me about for the last six months, it's gonna fix it. Done. I prioritize that for you. Now, there's 15 other things that has to be done, but boy, oh, boy, don't you wanna get rid of that headache?" And maybe for the HR team, it's like, "Hey, you know how we've been... It's been a nightmare tracking all the, all the contact with people? No more. This totally fixes all of it. It puts it all in one place."

Codie Sanchez 1:03:25 Brilliant.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:26 So it's, it's painkillers, not vitamins, even internally.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:29 Yeah. Um, we talk a lot about issues with, uh, communicating with our spouses.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:36 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:36 Because we're actually buddies in real life.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:38 Yes. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:03:39 And we also have a friend who's, like, sort of a relationship guru-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:42 Uh-huh

Codie Sanchez 1:03:42 ... person.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:43 Uh-huh.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:43 So I know you and I typically don't love to talk about our relationships publicly, so let's do it, like, externally. But, like, uh, these days, man, I mean, we have people getting married later than ever.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:54 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:54 We have people having less sex.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:56 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:56 We have people being in less committed relationships.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:58 Divorce is up.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:58 I think it's-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:03:59 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:03:59 ... divorce is up. I think it's hard for young people finding somebody.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:04 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:04:04 What, what advice do you have, or what research do you have to show how to better connect with a member of the opposite sex if you're single?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:13 Okay, so I wanna actually answer this in two ways. I wanna ask, answer it for singer pe- single people, and I wanna-

Codie Sanchez 1:04:17 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:17 ... answer it for couple people.

Codie Sanchez 1:04:18 Let's do it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:19 Okay, so this is amazing research. It changed my relationship with my husband and actually some close family members, which is Dr. Dan McAdams found that we connect through three different levels. When we're with someone, we're trying to pass through, first, level one, general traits. What do you do? Where are you from? What's your value system? Very, very basics. Level two, personal concerns. What worries you?

Codie Sanchez 1:04:42 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:42 What are your motivations? What are your goals? Level three, the hardest one, we're not there with most people in our life, self-narrative. What is the story you tell yourself about yourself?

Codie Sanchez 1:04:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:04:52 And so in single people, I think what's really important is understanding those three levels and knowing how to break through from level one to level three. You can do this with 15 questions. So we've actually been diving into this research, and I found five questions for each level-

Codie Sanchez 1:05:09 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:05:09 ... that you can actually use to break through. So for example, in the very first level, I want you to ask about, so this is not just what do you do, it's what excites you, what's been the highlight of your week, what are you learning right now?

Codie Sanchez 1:05:21 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:05:22 Those are questions that are like, not just like where do you vacation? Like, not just like, oh, what do you do for fun, right? Like, they're questions that are actually beginning to untangle some deeper connective tissue. Then you wanna try to graduate. Like, you wanna actually move to level two questions. Level two questions are, you know you're on level two with someone if you know what do they worry about when they fall asleep at night.

Codie Sanchez 1:05:41 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:05:42 What do they think about when they get up in the morning? If you don't know the answer to those questions, you're not close enough. Right, like, I think I probably know what keeps you up at night and what gets you up in the morning. I think you know that about me, too, right? So you should also be doing this with your friend, your friends, but literally asking, like, what worries you? What's the thing that keeps you up at night? What motivates you? What are you driving towards? What's your biggest goal this year? So those are value-based personality questions, and the last level, and this is the hardest one, is what's the story they tell themselves about themselves? I think what's really important is you wanna know what their narrative is, and in our research, and this is new research, I'm finding there are basically three different self-narratives, and you wanna know what you're getting into. The first one is my favorite. It's a hero self-narrative. You want a hero if you can in a relationship. A hero self-narrative is something like this. "I have challenges and problems, but with hard work and grit and determination, I overcome them."

Codie Sanchez 1:06:34 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:06:35 And that is their narrative for everything, their childhood, their work, their workout routine. Like, you have Choose Your Hard, like, that is a sel- that is a perfect example of a hero self-narrative. You'll find something, conquer it, and then be done with it, have success with it. You like that, 'cause in a relationship, that sets you up for success. They know it's not easy, right? Like, they, they know it might take a little bit of hard work, but they want the success. The second self-narrative I call a healer self-narrative. This is typically someone who their entire life is giving. Like, they're always trying to fix and heal. They're typically in social work-

Codie Sanchez 1:07:08 Mm-hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:08 ... teaching, the medical profession. They are givers, and that can be a problem. It's not a bad thing, but it can be a problem 'cause they typically are people pleasers.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:16 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:16 They typically don't stand up for themselves. They're also the friend who says yes to everything and then cancels last minute.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:21 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:22 Right? Like, you know... 'Cause they, they cannot say no in the-

Codie Sanchez 1:07:25 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:25 ... in the moment, because they really want to, but they are so overextended.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:29 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:29 But you should know that going into a relationship, that you might have to stand up for them, and they'll probably overextend themselves.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:34 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:34 Right? Or you might be in a relationship where you want a healer. The last one is the one that you wanna watch out for, which is a victim self-narrative. A victim self-narrative starts like the hero: challenges, mistakes, problems that they couldn't overcome, that no matter how hard they worked, they weren't able to change anything. They typically are the ones who feel they have very bad luck-

Codie Sanchez 1:07:53 Mm-hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:07:53 ... and over and over again. These are the friends where it's like nothing's ever fixed. You give them advice, they can't figure it out. Ev- "Woe is me. Everyone's

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:00 against me." You wanna watch out for that, because they will never be able to get out of that if that's how they see their whole life. That's literally their narrative about how their life goes.

Codie Sanchez 1:08:08 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:08 So as a single person, if you can try to answer those questions, go through them. I'm happy to give them away. They're on my website. Ask those questions early. Send them to your group chats. Ask the first three and then the second three, and then, right, like ask them on different dates, 'cause then you're purposely connecting and you're moving up the levels. If you're in a relationship, I highly recommend do all 15 questions once a year.

Codie Sanchez 1:08:28 Yeah, it's brilliant.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:30 The answers change.

Codie Sanchez 1:08:31 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:31 It is amazing when I ask my husband some of these questions how his answers have changed. I've been with my husband for 18 years.

Codie Sanchez 1:08:37 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:37 And it is amazing how much his answers and my answers have changed. And so every year on our anniversary, we an- we ask and answer all 15 questions, and that has been a game changer. I'll give you one example with a friend. So one of the level three questions is, "What book, movie, or TV character is most like you and why?"

Codie Sanchez 1:08:56 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:08:57 It's a value-based question, so it's not like who looks like you. It's like, what character really has values like you? I had a really good friend I'd known for years. I thought we were super close. I was like, oh, yeah, we're on level three. Mom of three, stay-at-home mom, funny, smart. I was like, oh, yeah, her self-narrative is probably, like, a funny TV mom. Like, that's her. I asked her this question. Immediately she's like, "Oh, Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games."

Codie Sanchez 1:09:21 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:24 [laughs] I was like, "What?" She's like, "Oh, yeah, I feel like I'm surviving every day."

Codie Sanchez 1:09:29 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:29 We had the best conversation that we had ever had. She was living a life that I had no idea.

Codie Sanchez 1:09:35 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:35 True hero self-narrative, which I knew, but I had no idea how much struggle she was having. And so these questions unlock aspects of people that truly can change and level up your connections.

Codie Sanchez 1:09:46 That's so beautiful, too, because all anyone, anybody really wants is somebody to listen to them-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:52 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:09:53 ... and somebody to show them a little love.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:54 And someone to understand them.

Codie Sanchez 1:09:56 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:56 You wanna be listened to, but you also wanna be understood.

Codie Sanchez 1:09:58 Yeah, that's true.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:09:59 These questions-

Codie Sanchez 1:09:59 Yeah, I will-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:00 ... are seeking to understand

Codie Sanchez 1:10:00 ... that's, yeah, that's right, because it's not enough to just listen. "Yeah, I hear you. I don't really understand."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:06 [laughs] Right.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:06 "I don't really care."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:07 Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:08 Totally different.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:08 So these questions are not just like, "What do you do for fun?" "Oh, that's cool. I don't like that."

Codie Sanchez 1:10:12 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:12 Right? These are, like, questions that are specifically geared toward, like, what is the narrative in their head?

Codie Sanchez 1:10:16 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:17 And if you're gonna be with someone in a marriage or a friendship, you wanna know how they're talking to themselves, 'cause you know what? That's gonna be how they talk to you.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:24 Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah, and, and also I think on top of that, how much more interesting are you if your conversations go that way? I mean, could you imagine a first date, you have those 15 questions prepped.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:33 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:33 You weave them in. Don't be a psychopath and like, you know, interrogate them through this, through the questions.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:37 I mean...

Codie Sanchez 1:10:39 Don't do it. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:40 I mean...

Codie Sanchez 1:10:40 I feel like, but if you weave that in with-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:42 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:10:43 ... like, the-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:43 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:10:43 ... you know, you can't start with-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:45 And the level one questions are actually like that.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:47 Like, right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:47 You, you can't be like-

Codie Sanchez 1:10:48 What are you excited about right now?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:49 ... "What's your deepest fear?" Date one.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:50 Right, exactly.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:51 No.

Codie Sanchez 1:10:51 No.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:51 That's level two, and actually that's a mistake that people make in dating-

Codie Sanchez 1:10:54 Right

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:10:54 ... is they are trying to speed up. They're, like, trying to speed up the connection, so they ask a level two question. The person is, like, totally freaked out. No, level one questions are like k- sneakers.

Codie Sanchez 1:11:02 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:02 They're like sneaky questions. Like, they're getting to a little bit of depth. They don't sound really bad. So yeah, you wanna weave them in. I also am, like, a big fan of, like, "Listen," like, "I watched this great podcast with Codie and Vanessa, and they had these 15 questions for new couples. Like, would you be willing to try the first three?"

Codie Sanchez 1:11:16 Cute.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:16 Right? Like, transparent, warm, vulnerable. Like, you're competent. You're listening to Codie's podcast.

Codie Sanchez 1:11:21 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:21 You're warm and you really wanna ask them.

Codie Sanchez 1:11:23 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:23 Right? Like, I am full- I am for radical transparency. Like, you know if I don't wanna do something, I'm like, "No, I'm not doing it."

Codie Sanchez 1:11:29 Yes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:29 Right? Like-

Codie Sanchez 1:11:30 You do

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:30 ... I am for it.

Codie Sanchez 1:11:31 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:31 And so, like, I'm like, you wanna ask them 15 questions 'cause you like them? Tell them, "I like you so much that I wanna go to level three with you, but we're on date one, so can we start with the first three questions?"

Codie Sanchez 1:11:41 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:42 Right? Like, "Your face looks bad. Are you contemptuous of me? Please tell me."

Codie Sanchez 1:11:46 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:46 Like, I'm for it.

Codie Sanchez 1:11:47 Yeah. I like that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:11:48 I'm for it. And so that's, by the way, like, you asked about likable and attractive, and that's what makes us likable and attractive, is we're asking, like, really intentional questions that are opening up the lines of connection in a totally different way.

Codie Sanchez 1:12:01 Hey, y'all. I don't know about you guys, but this podcast is killing me. She is so good. So if you are loving this podcast like I am, like a little possum digging in trash just looking for buried treasure, I think you should make sure to give this a review. We are obsessing on this one idea, which is, can we get a bunch of humans to tell us what you

Codie Sanchez 1:12:18 really think about this podcast, what you want, what you don't? I read every single one of the reviews on there, so put your little mitts on those five stars if you feel like it and give us some feedback. I appreciate every single one of you. Let's go back to Vanessa. I wanna talk really quickly about introverts in business.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:32 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 1:12:32 'Cause you sorta specialize as being a self-prescribed, uh, recovering awkward person.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:37 I'm a recovering awkward person.

Codie Sanchez 1:12:39 [laughs] And-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:40 It's true

Codie Sanchez 1:12:40 ... uh, and you talk a lot about how you can be awkward and introverted in business and it can be okay.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:45 It's totally okay.

Codie Sanchez 1:12:46 So I know this is a huge topic that you speak a lot about at Science of People, but if you had to leave somebody with a little sprinkling-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:53 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:12:53 ... as somebody in business who really wants to be successful-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:56 Yes

Codie Sanchez 1:12:56 ... but is introverted-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:57 Yes

Codie Sanchez 1:12:57 ... what typical advice do you give?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:12:59 Okay. So in- First things first is you have to find your recipe for charisma.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:05 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:05 I think that I used to believe, as an awkward person, this is what unlocked my awkwardness, is there was only one type of charisma.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:11 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:11 That to be liked, to be successful in business, because I've been running my business for 15 years, right? Like, I put my first video on YouTube in 2007, and I thought to be successful on YouTube-

Codie Sanchez 1:13:19 You're so old

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:19 ... I'm so old.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:20 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:21 I know, I'm aging myself.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:22 Between the two of us.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:23 I know. So in 2007, I thought the only way to be popular on YouTube was to be a bubbly extrovert.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:28 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:28 I literally thought that was the only type of charisma. But actually, there are different flavors of charisma. You can absolutely be the quiet, powerful introvert. You can be the empathetic healer. You can be the wise question-asker. And I think once... I was so awkward, 'cause I was f- faking being an extrovert.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:45 Oh, interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:45 I'm not an extrovert. So the key is, stop pretending to be an extrovert.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:49 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:50 You do not have to be an extrovert to be successful in business.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:54 Mm-mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:54 But you do have to find your flavor.

Codie Sanchez 1:13:55 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:13:55 So the question is, what is your social strength? Is it storytelling? Is it being funny and humble? Right? Like, I think Taylor Swift has a great, a great social strength of, of being grateful in a stadium full of 50,000 people.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:09 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:09 That is hard. Like, Usher, when he walks out, he's like, "What, what? Yeah, I deserve you being here."

Codie Sanchez 1:14:13 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:13 Right? Like, that's his vibe, and that totally works for Usher, but that does not work for Taylor Swift, and if she tried to do that, people wouldn't like it.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:20 Comment if you remember who Usher is, if you're old like us, [laughs] 'cause I feel you're also dating ourselves.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:24 I know. I know.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:25 You're like, "The thing is, back when Bach was playing and Mozart was in season."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:28 [laughs] Back... Oh, no, Mozart. My friend Mozart.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:31 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:32 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:32 But you're right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:33 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:14:33 So she ha- can have a totally different vibe-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:36 Yes

Codie Sanchez 1:14:36 ... than a rapper.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:37 Yes. And so I think, like, find your vibe. Like, social skills come small. Like, it's not just, like presenting. It's storytelling. It's using memes.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:45 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:46 It's being funny. It's telling, sharing a case study. It's one-to-one. Like, for example, as a leader, I know one-to-one I do really well.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:52 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:14:53 Like, I, I prioritize those meetings, 'cause I just do better in them than, like, the big all-hands kind of meetings.

Codie Sanchez 1:14:59 But you're such a good presenter. That surprises me.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:01 On, on like a big stage for sure, but like-

Codie Sanchez 1:15:03 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:03 ... on our team of, like, 10, you know what I mean?

Codie Sanchez 1:15:05 Yes. Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:05 I'm like, "Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?"

Codie Sanchez 1:15:08 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:08 "Are you okay? Is everyone okay?" Like, it's, it's actually, like, very hard. So we have one big call a week. That's it.

Codie Sanchez 1:15:13 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:13 Otherwise, it's one-on-ones with me.

Codie Sanchez 1:15:15 Interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:15:15 So, like, understand what your strength is. Like, what, down to the specific skill. Is it presenting? Are keynotes? Being funny, right? So, like, understand your specific strength, and don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Like, I think, I... A little story is I was at a really, an invite-only muckety-muck event here in Austin with a lot of VIPs, a lot of really important people who live in Austin. Like, the most important people in Austin, like, they were there, right? It was at this huge mansion. And so I get invited and I'm like, "Why was I invited? I do not deserve to be here." And like, I walk in, like awkward penguin, you know. And they go, they put us all in a circle. There was 30 of us, 25 of us. They put us all in a circle and they go, "One by one we're gonna introduce ourself." And I'm not joking, okay? Someone was like, "Well, I founded," insert huge company that you definitely know, "and, um, I'm, like, a billionaire, and I own the world."

Codie Sanchez 1:16:08 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:16:08 The next person was like, "I cured cancer, and um, I'm curing future cancers that don't exist, and I am an amazing doctor." And then, like, it was, like, insane, okay? Like, and they're going around the circle, and I'm just like... [panting]

Codie Sanchez 1:16:23 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:16:23 And like, it's getting to me, and I'm like, "I'm a YouTuber."

Codie Sanchez 1:16:25 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:16:26 "And I write books about people." Like, you know what I mean? [laughs] Like, just... So it gets to me and I'm like, "I'm a recovering awkward person." And the whole circle was like, [gasps] and starts to laugh. Like, everyone's like, "Oh, yeah, me too. Me too. Me too."

Codie Sanchez 1:16:41 Oh.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:16:41 And I was like, "And I help arc- awkward, smart people connect. If you're awkward and you don't have anyone to talk to later, just come find me."

Codie Sanchez 1:16:49 So good.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:16:49 "I have a YouTube channel and a couple books." I will tell you every single, almost every single person after me referenced me. They were like, "I'm awkward like her." Laugh again. Cue laughter. And after the circle broke up, everyone in the circle came to talk to me, including, like, the important muckety-mucks over here, right? 'Cause they were also very awkward. And so it just, it made me realize, like, don't pretend, don't fake it, don't show off. Let people impress you. Stop trying to impress them.

Codie Sanchez 1:17:18 Yep.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:18 And be a little vulnerable. It's okay to say that you wished you were home watching Netflix.

Codie Sanchez 1:17:22 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:23 Like, it's okay to say, "You know what? I have a, a, a... At night I do my passion project, and during the day I drive Uber." Right? Like, stop flexing.

Codie Sanchez 1:17:32 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:32 Like, I think it's okay to be vulnerable and be like, "My passion, I'm doing this, and we're, we're getting to the next level, but we're having some trouble with staffing. If you know anyone..." Like, that's how we actually impress people.

Codie Sanchez 1:17:41 You know what's interesting though, is you do it in a way where you don't give up your competence.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:46 Oh.

Codie Sanchez 1:17:46 And so I think that's the really hard part. Like, I know when I was first getting on the internet after being in finance for a long time and I didn't really wanna explain that I ran a media company and I had this holding company, I would say like, "I make TikToks."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:57 Yeah. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:17:58 And-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:17:58 I was friends with you when you used to say that. I'd be like, "Girl."

Codie Sanchez 1:18:01 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:01 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:01 And I think at that point it was because I didn't wanna explain more, and-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:05 Yeah. It was like an out.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:07 It was a little bit of an out. But it's not a great out, 'cause when you're in rooms with those important people, you don't want them to go, "Oh, well, she's got an OnlyFans." [laughs] You know? Like-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:16 [laughs] I, I think that probably-

Codie Sanchez 1:18:18 I bet they did. They're like, "Oh, that bitch." You know?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:20 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:20 "Gonna slide her a bill later."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:22 [laughs] Yeah. "Gonna look you up. How do you spell your name? Codie with a I-E?" [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:18:27 With a capital D.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:28 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:18:28 Anyway, so-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:30 Oh, no

Codie Sanchez 1:18:30 ... um, the...

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:31 Ah.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:32 I think the point is you really have to think about how can you be vulnerable-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:36 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:18:36 ... without losing your competence. Do you have, um, do you have opinions or advice on how to do that? 'Cause yours is perfect. You're like, "I'm recovering," aka I'm not all the way, "awkward." Lots of people who are smart consider themselves awkward.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:49 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:49 "I do X thing," which shows competence.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:52 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:52 Followed by two really impressive things, author and I have a big media company.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:18:57 Yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:18:57 But, like, it's perfectly crafted.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:01 You would not be watching this if you don't have a good business idea.

Codie Sanchez 1:19:04 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:04 Right? And so I think, like, being vulnerable is being true and sharing your good idea.

Codie Sanchez 1:19:12 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:12 I also think if you can add a credibility marker, it helps. Like for example, I notice that when I added Wall Street Journal's best-selling book-

Codie Sanchez 1:19:18 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:18 ... it immediately upped my perceived credibility, because anyone can have a best-selling book on Amazon in like the category of like awkward people, right? Like, no.

Codie Sanchez 1:19:25 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:26 So that was like, okay, so is there a way in your... Like for example, if I say I'm a recovering awkward person, I have a TED Talk about being awkward, right? Like, that's an, a credibility marker that I can very quickly say. Or like I have best-selling books-

Codie Sanchez 1:19:40 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:40 ... through Penguin Random House, right? Like, so in the beginning of my career, I was saying TED Talk, I was saying Penguin Random House. I was saying like the big credibility markers.

Codie Sanchez 1:19:49 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:49 Like I just got asked to teach a Harvard class.

Codie Sanchez 1:19:52 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:52 You can bet I'll be adding that into my bio. So the more that you can add them, sprinkle them in, credibility markers are good, right?

Codie Sanchez 1:19:59 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:19:59 And it can, it can be the counterbalance to your warmth.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:01 Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah, I also think you can find one that's not so serious. If you're not perfectly skilled like Vanessa is, you could say like, "I am a ravenous pickleball player."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:11 That's it. Totally.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:12 You know?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:12 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:12 Like, why could that work? Because pickleball, nobody looks cool playing pickleball.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:16 Right.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:16 And if you add it-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:17 I mean, I look pretty cool.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:18 No, you're not.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:18 No, okay.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:18 Nobody looks cool.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:19 All right.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:19 No, it's not-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:20 It's great. Okay

Codie Sanchez 1:20:20 ... it's an out. The internet hates me for this.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:22 They love pickleball.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:22 But, but, and then saying the word... They love you. By saying a word like, "I am a top-tier pickleballer, I am a ravenous pickleball player."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:30 Right. Totally.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:30 Like, it's an immediate chuckle.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:31 Yes. The... Or like even like, "By night I do..."

Codie Sanchez 1:20:34 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:35 ... you know? Or like, "My, my day job is this, but like, uh, my passion project is this." Like, we like words like that.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:41 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:41 Passion project, ravenous, amateur. Like you can say-

Codie Sanchez 1:20:44 Yeah, amateur's a good one

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:45 ... those things.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:46 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:46 Like recovering in its own way. Or like I also love, I teach my students to do like blank turned blank.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:51 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:51 So I have a lot of, um, like pivoters. I have a lot of students who are like, "I was a lawyer, and now I wanna be a nonprofit runner," or whatever.

Codie Sanchez 1:20:58 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:20:58 Nonprofit runner. A nonpr- owner of a nonprofit.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:00 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:00 Like, I don't even know. Yeah, I have a lot of students who like have pivoted.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:02 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:03 And they're like, "How do I say like I was legit a lawyer and I've chosen this?" I'm like, "Turned." So like, "I'm a lawyer turned nonprofit. I'm a student, but my passion project is that I'm build, I'm coding my own software blank." So you... That is a narrative, by the way.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:18 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:19 Like, I think people are afraid to in an elevator pitch, or like I teach my students, it's called a logline. Like, a logline is like a one-sentence phrase that gets people hooked.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:28 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:29 And every movie in Hollywood comes with a logline.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:31 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:31 And so you should have a logline. It should be a one-sentence hook to what you do, and it should be a story. And it can, you can do it in one sentence.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:37 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:37 Like me saying, "I'm a recovering awkward terson, person turned YouTuber," that's a story.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:42 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:42 Like, that's an interest. You're like, "What?"

Codie Sanchez 1:21:43 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:44 "I wanna hear." So it's like, "I'm a, I'm a, a scuba dive instructor turned family law lawyer." Like, we like a story like that, and so I think that if you can do not, "I'm a blank."

Codie Sanchez 1:21:55 Yeah. You know, it's the hero's journey.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:56 Totally.

Codie Sanchez 1:21:57 It's-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:21:57 And you can do that in one sentence

Codie Sanchez 1:21:58 ... you know, former nerd turned Spider-Man.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:01 There you go. Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:02 I think on my book they put in, "Reformed Wall Street investor turned small business owner."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:07 By the way, her book is so good.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:09 [laughs] Well, do you know why? Because you edited-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:12 So I did get an early copy-

Codie Sanchez 1:22:13 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:13 ... and I edited the shit out of it.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:14 Yeah. And you-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:15 And it was-

Codie Sanchez 1:22:15 Had the best feedback. Also-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:16 It's so good, guys

Codie Sanchez 1:22:17 ... you know what's really fun?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:18 So good.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:19 Is when you, when you know your friends, finding ones who their love language is some portion of what you need, too.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:25 [laughs] Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:25 Like you, I remember you said explicitly to me, "I want to be the best editing help of anybody of all of our friend group."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:34 I'm highly competitive, and I wanted to be, I wanted to give the best advice.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:37 You wanted to give the [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:38 I'm highly competitive. And like, it, it was fun. It was fun for me to do it, and I said, "Am I the best?"

Codie Sanchez 1:22:42 Oh, you were the best.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:43 Well, Fernanda. What, uh, we have a friend who-

Codie Sanchez 1:22:45 Oh, we have one friend who-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:45 We have one friend who competed with me on the editing. But it is so good. Like, if you have not ordered it yet, it is so, so good.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:50 Oh, thank you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:22:51 I, the edits I had were small in comparison to the book. Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:22:53 No, they were really important. You know, the edits, I think one, a couple of the things that you taught me the most about communication in general is one, that story's more mem- mem- more memorable than stat.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:03 And so like make sure if you're gonna tell some statistics, wrap it in a story so that people-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:07 Warmth, competence

Codie Sanchez 1:23:08 ... can remember.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:08 Warmth. Yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:09 And then you also mentioned a lot about how this is about the reader.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:12 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:12 So you know, we had a lot of diagrams and data and stuff in there. You were very-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:16 Beautiful diagrams. Beautiful. Thank you

Codie Sanchez 1:23:16 ... right, and you're like, "Get to the point, and why do they care?"

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:20 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:21 And we, so we did that really tight up front, because I wanted to make sure that people lasted through that first chapter-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:27 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:23:27 ... to get into the meat, and that was really helpful.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:28 I also think like this is for anyone. Whether you're writing a book or starting a business, it's like you wanna compliment the person who is reading it. You wanna compliment the person who is buying it.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:36 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:36 You wanna compliment the person who visited, who deigned to visit your page. You wanna compliment the person who opened your email. Like, I've been writing an email newsletter for literally 14 years.

Codie Sanchez 1:23:44 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:44 Like, it took me one year to get my, my-

Codie Sanchez 1:23:45 And it's huge.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:23:45 It's, it, my, my newsletter's huge. I personally write every single word, because I know that I should be letting them impress me. I should be d- over-delivering. I should be aggressively helpful. And so I think it's the same thing as like how can you compliment your person? Like, how can you ask the right questions or s- set them up for success? Like, that is the way we spread goodness.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:03 It's so good. Okay, I wanna close out with something a little bit different that I don't think you talk about very much.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:07 Okay.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:07 Which is you are one of the categorically happiest business people I know, and you have the best balance in your business while running a business with quite a lot of zeros.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:16 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:16 And so I know you're private about a lot of this, but what do you think the key has been to moving from somebody who did 452 videos, all of the different businesses, every speaking spot, to two podcasts this year that you've done.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:31 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:31 You know, taken an entire summer off.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:34 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:34 Really a sabbatical.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:35 I gotta take summer sabbaticals.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:36 Yeah. No, yeah, you've taken now multiple.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:38 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:38 And, um, you have two wonderful kids and a beautiful husband.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:41 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:41 Like, what's, what's your, what's your secret?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:43 Hmm. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:47 Yeah, that's a, that's an annoying statement.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:48 How often do I say that to you?

Codie Sanchez 1:24:50 A lot. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:51 A lot. A lot.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:51 Every other day.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:52 I don't have a podcast.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:53 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:54 I can do a podcast. Should I do a podcast? No.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:56 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:57 Because I should go on everyone else's.

Codie Sanchez 1:24:58 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:24:59 That is better. I have a newsletter, and I put everything into that, because I should be doing that because that is a direct line of communication with my people. TikTok, don't care. I'm on there because my team has forced me. But like, I shouldn't do it. I shouldn't be making Reels for TikTok. And you know what?

Codie Sanchez 1:25:11 And you don't post it yourself.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:12 No.

Codie Sanchez 1:25:12 That's all done third party now.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:14 No. It doesn't, it doesn't convert. And so I think like, it's very important for a business owner to focus relentlessly on what is actually converting to your business.

Codie Sanchez 1:25:23 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:23 And I mean dollars, right?

Codie Sanchez 1:25:25 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:25 Like, I have a tight team. Like, we wanna keep overhead as low as possible. Like, if it is not converting, if a job role is not converting, it is not a role.

Codie Sanchez 1:25:34 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:34 And so it's all the things you could do, making a big list then. Every year, we make a big list of all the things we could do, and then we play stop, start, continue.

Codie Sanchez 1:25:43 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:43 And this is my favorite game to play, and we do it all the time. It's like, okay, what should we stop doing? Is this actually converting, this role, this task, this person? Down to I realized that checking my inbox was not converting into actual work.

Codie Sanchez 1:25:57 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:25:57 And so I figured out how to outsource it to my assistant, who is amazing, shout-out Carolyn, so that she can actually go through my inbox and do everything that needs to be done with a very s- precise system so that I'm spending now 10 minutes every other day on email-

Codie Sanchez 1:26:10 Mm-hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:26:10 ... as opposed to three hours a day. That was really painful. It took six months to get rid of my inbox, but it was not converting, so that went on the stop list, right? What, what is actually converting, that's continue. That's the shortest list.

Codie Sanchez 1:26:20 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:26:20 Right? Like, what you're actually doing. And then stop is if it's not converting or it's draining your soul, it has to stop.

Codie Sanchez 1:26:28 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:26:28 And sometimes it takes a while to un- to undo things.

Codie Sanchez 1:26:30 Yeah, it's so true. W- Totally selfish question for me. You get a lot of asks. "Vanessa, come on this show. Come speak here. Come do that here." How do you respond to things and teach your team to respond to things so that the person who gets your nos feels like it's lovely, thinks so li- highly of you. Everybody always loves you. What's the secret?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:26:52 I'm like, "Yes."

Codie Sanchez 1:26:53 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:26:53 "Yes, they do." No, um, radical transparency ra- and vulnerability. So it sounds like this. "Thank you so much for this podcast offer. You know, Vanessa is on a podcast sabbatical because she hates them."

Codie Sanchez 1:27:06 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:10 "I did you and I did Mel, 'cause I like you both, and this is fun."

Codie Sanchez 1:27:13 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:13 "Otherwise, I don't like it."

Codie Sanchez 1:27:14 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:15 Right? Like, like se- like seriously, or like, uh, my favorite one is, like, if it's personal, like, like if someone texts me and they're like, "Can you, can you speak at my conference?" I wanna speak at your conference. That, that was the easy one.

Codie Sanchez 1:27:26 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:26 Like, I don't wanna speak at someone conference. And I say, "You know what? I would love to. I'm so honored you thought of me, but my plate is as full as I like right now."

Codie Sanchez 1:27:32 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:33 My plate is as full as I like right now. I also love the word sabbatical.

Codie Sanchez 1:27:37 Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:38 Like, I am on a podcast sabbatical. I'm not doing new podcasts. When I'm in summer sabbatical, I am on summer sabbatical. I maybe, maybe work five hours a week-

Codie Sanchez 1:27:47 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:47 ... in summers, 'cause I wanna spend time with my kids. And so like, it's very, it's... When people understand it's not personal to you. I am literally on a summer sabbatical. I'm not doing calls. I'm not doing media calls. I'm not doing pitches. I'm not email. I scheduled all my content out.

Codie Sanchez 1:27:59 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:27:59 I'm off. I'm out. And that makes people not f- feel like it's personal to them. So radical transparency and blaming a system. Blaming a system works so well. Sabbatical, Vanessa's not doing any speaking events in the fall, sorry.

Codie Sanchez 1:28:12 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:12 Oh, you know, Vanessa's, uh, recovering from her book tour. She'll pick back up in December.

Codie Sanchez 1:28:16 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:16 That's a system. People cannot fight against a system, but that means you gotta have systems. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:28:21 Well, that's a really good point. So that's basically the structure is if you wanna respond to a thing but have the other person almost thank you for the response-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:27 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:28:27 ... it's first, profusely thank them.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:29 And, and gratitude, yes

Codie Sanchez 1:28:30 ... gratitude, appreciation, because that's honest.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:32 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 1:28:33 Second is have a system in place where you say because of X system, Y action will or will not work.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:40 Th- yes, because of X system, it will not work, and it's nothing personal to you, but it's, you can't fight it, 'cause it's the system. Or a very real and vulnerable thing that if I say I hate people, you don't want me to come. Like for example, Nick Gray, love. Love Nick Gray. He invites me to some things, and I go, and I love it, but some things I'm like, "I don't like people."

Codie Sanchez 1:28:57 Same.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:28:58 And I literally write back and I'm like, "I don't like people enough to go to that."

Codie Sanchez 1:29:01 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:01 "I'm awkward." And he goes, "I know."

Codie Sanchez 1:29:03 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:04 Right? And like, that is a very real and vulnerable share. Or like-

Codie Sanchez 1:29:07 Yes

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:07 ... sometimes people invite me to things and I'm like, "It's after 9:00 PM. I don't do after 9:00 PM." That's a personal system. It's like, "Oh, she doesn't do after 9:00 PM."

Codie Sanchez 1:29:14 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:14 And you know what? You wouldn't want me after 9:00 PM.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:16 Oh, 1000%.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:17 You would not want me.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:18 Same.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:18 And so I think, like, if it's a vulnerable share that, like, people wouldn't want that-

Codie Sanchez 1:29:21 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:21 ... then it's easy to say no.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:22 Yeah, vulnerable share, and maybe even a little humor.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:25 I try to be funny.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:26 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:26 You know I try to be funny.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:27 Yeah, 100.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:28 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:28 Well, it makes a huge difference if you're like... You know, and I think trying to teach your team, too, it's one thing we're working on in my team right now is, like, teaching your team how to say no super graciously-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:39 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:29:39 ... with boundaries-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:40 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 1:29:40 ... and even a little bit of sense of humor. And I think that thing that you talked about, which is like a shadow influence ba- uh, blame.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:45 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:46 So it's like, "I can't do this because system. I can't do this because promises to the business."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:51 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:52 "I can't do this because whatever."

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:53 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 1:29:54 Then you're never the blame. They're not the blame. This other third party is the blame.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:29:57 Yes. And one more thing I'll add there is we found a lot of success with, like, "You know what? Vanessa's on s- podcast sabbatical. We're gonna add your podcast to a list so that if and when she decides to pick it back up or she has a book launch coming up, we can reach out to you."

Codie Sanchez 1:30:11 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:11 And by the way, that happens.

Codie Sanchez 1:30:13 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:13 You know, like, when I have a launch, I'm like, "You know what? Time for some podcasts." And then I like it-

Codie Sanchez 1:30:18 And then, yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:18 ... 'cause I actually have things to talk about, right?

Codie Sanchez 1:30:20 Right.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:20 I have new research. I have new things. So adding a list really helps. Like, even like I'll have people who are like, "I'm in Austin for the week. Do you wanna hang out?" And I'm like, "No."

Codie Sanchez 1:30:30 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:30 'Cause like it's a, it's a hard week. And so I'll be like, "I'm so sorry. I'm in a low people season right now, but next time you come, please reach out." Like, it's the next time.

Codie Sanchez 1:30:38 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:38 So you can, like, create a list. And like, you have to be genuine about it, but like, I think that that also really helps people feel like it's not just no.

Codie Sanchez 1:30:44 Love it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:44 End. So if you have speaking event requests or podcast requests, you can say, "Let me add you to a list. When and if Codie can do it-

Codie Sanchez 1:30:50 Mm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:30:50 ... or I can do it, I would love to, but right now I am focusing 100% on the book launch, or 100% on my people." Or like, I've also had friends who are like, you know... I, this literally happened to me last week. I have a little girls' dinner that I do, and I picked an expensive restaurant, and that was shame on me. I shouldn't have done that. And my friend said, "I'm so sorry. I can't afford to eat out right now. It's been hard for the business." Oof. I was like, "I am so sorry." Like, how did I do that? And so, like she was super honest with me, and it w- it was really transparent. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, let's go to c- like, let's go somewhere super easy. Let's do a picnic." And like, then we had a really great deep discussion. So like even that, like being like, "Hey, I'm like, I'm pinching pennies for the business. I can't go to Costa Rica right now with you."

Codie Sanchez 1:31:31 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:32 Like, don't make an excuse. Like, say the truth.

Codie Sanchez 1:31:34 Yep. That's so beautiful. Okay, it's tough out there in the world right now. We're getting communicated negatively everywhere.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:41 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:31:42 What-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:42 Not my Instagram. We're very positive

Codie Sanchez 1:31:43 You are very positive on your Instagram and YouTube.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:46 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:31:46 But I think the newsletter, like if you're gonna sign up for one thing, it should be like Science of People, the newsletter.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:49 I'm very proud of my artisanal, organic, handcrafted newsletter.

Codie Sanchez 1:31:53 [laughs] It's really good.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:54 That's how it feels-

Codie Sanchez 1:31:54 And it's long

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:31:55 ... like I'm making like... Um, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:31:57 So you should definitely go to Science of People. Um, but what would you want to leave people with, to leave them on that little bit of a high note in a world that's a little negative?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:32:04 Can I share a story?

Codie Sanchez 1:32:06 I would love a story.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:32:06 Okay. So, um, this fundamentally changed how I interact, and it was about being likable. And one of the fears I have about awkwardness is that I'm deeply unlikable.

Codie Sanchez 1:32:16 Mm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:32:16 Like, that is something that I really fight with.

Codie Sanchez 1:32:19 Wow.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:32:19 And so I found this study, and what these researchers did is they wanted to figure out what makes someone likable. So he followed thousands of high school students across a variety of high schools, and he ca- categorized them based on popularity. And then he looked at every variable he could think of: athleticism, GPA, humor, attractiveness, like everything he could think of. And there was one predictor across all the grades and all the high schools. Yes, they were popular 'cause they were athletic or smart, but there was one that all the popular kids across all the schools had. They had the longest list of people that they liked.

Codie Sanchez 1:32:50 Ooh.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:32:51 Meaning that if you wanna be likable, all you have to do is go around aggressively liking people.

Codie Sanchez 1:32:58 Oh, that's wild. That's so good.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:00 And it totally reframed for me, like all I need to do is stop worrying about being likable, or being impressive, or being funny, or being whatever. Actually, what I have to do is find ways to aggressively like the people that I'm with.

Codie Sanchez 1:33:14 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:15 Asking better questions, searching for good, assuming good-

Codie Sanchez 1:33:18 Hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:18 ... expecting good. And so what I would leave you with is, if you wanna be more likable, you need to be hunting for good in others. In every conversation, in every email, in every discussion, it's like, "How can I like this person more?"

Codie Sanchez 1:33:32 Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:32 That is such a better way to be internally, but it's also like a beautiful way to be externally.

Codie Sanchez 1:33:37 That's so pretty. May I ask you sort of a personal question?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:40 Of course.

Codie Sanchez 1:33:42 Why d- why were you worried about being profoundly dislikable? Where do you think that comes from?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:48 I don't know. I think, I think I'm different.

Codie Sanchez 1:33:52 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:52 You know? I think I'm a little different. Like, even you will say to me, like, "Vanessa, like you dress so weird."

Codie Sanchez 1:33:56 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:33:56 I'm like, "I know." You do.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:00 You do have-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:00 And I do

Codie Sanchez 1:34:00 ... you have two of the d- same dresses in 42 colors

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:03 That's it.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:04 You do.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:04 That's it. It's my Steve Jobs moment.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:06 Okay? Like, you know, I just am a little weird. Like, I do weird things. I have weird hobbies. I don't dress like other people. I never did. You know-

Codie Sanchez 1:34:15 Hmm

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:15 ... I was like always the girl in school who like, I had like the bowl cut and like the plaid vest, and all the other girls were wearing Juicy.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:21 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:21 Aging myself.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:22 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:22 You know what I mean? Like, I was listening to, like G- Garfunk- Simon & Garfunkel while the girls were listening to, like Backstreet... You know, like I just like am-

Codie Sanchez 1:34:29 Which means now you're cool

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:30 ... yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:34:31 ... back then.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:32 And so I think, like I'm just a little odd. Like, I even do things differently than our friends do, you know?

Codie Sanchez 1:34:36 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:36 And so I think, like that's why, is because for a long time-

Codie Sanchez 1:34:40 Yeah

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:40 ... like that was a bad thing, and now I have people who love me for it.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:43 It's cool. Hmm.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:43 Like, when I text you, you're like, "What are you doing?"

Codie Sanchez 1:34:45 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:46 And I know that you love me even though I'm like, "Let's go do weird activity. Insert weird activity." [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:34:52 What do you do? [laughs] That's interesting.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:54 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:34:54 So at one point, that made you really scared and nervous that people-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:34:59 And, and it literally turned people off 'cause I was like not with the right people. And when you're young-

Codie Sanchez 1:35:02 Oh

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:02 ... it's hard, you know? Like-

Codie Sanchez 1:35:03 Oh, God. Being a young woman too

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:04 ... a 14-year-old girl... Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:35:05 ... what a night. That was a nightmare.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:06 So now if I have a friend that's like, "You do what for fun?" I'm like, "Oh, we're not... Okay, like we're not gonna be friends. That's cool."

Codie Sanchez 1:35:13 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:13 Whereas like in a group of friends where they're like, "Well, good for you for doing that," I'm like, "Cha cha cha."

Codie Sanchez 1:35:18 Yeah.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:18 You know?

Codie Sanchez 1:35:19 You know what the other thing is, too, is now you doing that I think has allowed our group of girlfriends to all bring weird things that we each want to do-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:26 It's amazing. Everyone's getting weirder

Codie Sanchez 1:35:27 ... that we never would've done that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:29 No, for sure.

Codie Sanchez 1:35:29 Now you're actually kinda normal. You're a little basic now compared to us. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:31 Yeah. People, people have brought out we... It brings out the weirdness in people, totally.

Codie Sanchez 1:35:35 Yeah, which is a beautiful thing to think about. Like, if that thing inside of you is so weird, different, nobody's on board with it-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:41 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 1:35:41 ... what sort of magic do you shake out if you share it? Because I bet there's people that are even weirder than you.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:46 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:35:46 That's like-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:46 I, I'm waiting for you to be weirder.

Codie Sanchez 1:35:48 Yeah. I mean, I know. All I do is business.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:51 I know. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:35:51 Business, business, business.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:52 Business, business. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:35:53 I need some hobbies. I'm in the market for a hobby.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:35:56 Yeah. Like, yeah, we gotta get some hobbies for you, but like not like shooting.

Codie Sanchez 1:35:59 I know. No, that is true.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:00 You know what I mean? Like, it's so hardcore. Like, something like pottery.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:03 Yeah, I know.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:04 Or like darning.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:04 You always bring me the worst hobbies. Like, you're like, "Make a..." What was the last wreath one you wanted me to do?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:10 Yeah, a succulent wreath.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:11 Oh, that, that, that awful-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:12 They're beautiful

Codie Sanchez 1:36:12 ... Harry Potter thing we went to for four hours. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:15 That was fun, and I brought chocolate frogs.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:17 [laughs] You did not think it was fun.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:19 You're Slytherin.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:20 Yeah, I am. I must be, although I, I s-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:22 You know you are

Codie Sanchez 1:36:23 ... I score as Gryffindor.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:24 No.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:25 I think you're a secret Slytherin.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:26 No, I'm not. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 1:36:28 Yeah. I think so.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:28 I'm a Ravenclaw.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:29 Anybody who makes this secretly-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:30 I'm a Ravenclaw

Codie Sanchez 1:36:31 ... is Slytherin. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:32 I'm a Ravenclaw.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:33 [laughs] Was that one of those flash, flash grenades or whatever?

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:36 That was like... Did I get it? Did I?

Codie Sanchez 1:36:37 Yeah. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:38 And we did go to Harry Potter Symphony Orchestra.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:40 God, we are losing all my cool points-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:40 And I did make us dress up, although you wouldn't do it

Codie Sanchez 1:36:43 ... on the internet right now. I did it.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:45 You didn't dress up.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:46 Yes, I did. I don't remember what I wore, but I wore-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:47 You wore one, you wore like a sock.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:49 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:50 And I was like, "Okay, it's under a boot."

Codie Sanchez 1:36:51 [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:52 I was like in a cape.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:53 You were not. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:53 Like, I had like spell earrings on.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:55 You did have spell earrings. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:36:56 Brought everyone gifts.

Codie Sanchez 1:36:58 But it's kind of endearing, 'cause how many scientists are like a Harry Potter-

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:00 Harry Potter fan. I know

Codie Sanchez 1:37:01 ... I'm actually a huge Harry Potter fan. I just don't projec- keep it deep inside. [laughs]

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:06 That's why I'm saying we gotta be-

Codie Sanchez 1:37:07 Watch it

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:07 ... we gotta be weirder.

Codie Sanchez 1:37:08 Okay, fine.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:08 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:37:08 I'll bring it on the internet. Tell me if anybody else on here is Harry Potter fans.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:11 And what your house is.

Codie Sanchez 1:37:12 Oh, yeah, and what your house is.

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:13 And that you think-

Codie Sanchez 1:37:14 But don't lie

Vanessa Van Edwards 1:37:14 ... you know that Codie's Slytherin.

Codie Sanchez 1:37:15 Okay, you can guess. What do you guys think I am? Am I Slytherin? Am I Gryffindor? I think we've actually found the real culprit here, and that's [laughs] where we'll leave you on this podcast today. Thanks for coming, B. That's quite a close. I can't believe I shared all of that on the internet. I guess you guys could tell me in the comments which Harry Potter house you think I am. I have a clear house, so I hope you guys get this right. I think Vanessa was trying to dissuade you from what is the obvious choice. So maybe you can tell me what Harry Potter house you guys are in the comments, and you can tell me which one you think I am. The second thing I was thinking about with the close here is when it comes to communication, there's some correlation between the better you speak, the more money is in your bank account, and I wish I had understood this earlier. It's actually not my biggest strong suit. I'm pretty good at one to many, AKA content. Vanessa talks about how she's really good one to one, and I think one of the keys in success in your bank account is how good are you, like one to 5, 10, 15, 20, and your small teams. And so if you wanna learn more about how to communicate well to small teams, let me know in the comments, too, because I think we should put together a guide for how do we run meetings so that they don't suck and people actually wanna attend to them. How do you communicate with your team even when things are scary and get them to do the things that you want them to do? Vanessa hit on a bunch of it today. I think we should go deeper, so hit me in the comments if you think so, too. And in the meantime, I guess I'll end with this. You know, Maya Angelou has the famous saying that people won't remember the things that you said, but they will remember the way you made them feel. And if you remember nothing else, I think this is an opportunity for you to look yourself in the mirror and say, "Am I making people feel a certain way that they will remember and wanna positively associate their next interaction with me?" Maybe ask yourself that question. I'm gonna do the same. All right. See you guys next time. [upbeat music]