Negotiation Expert: Stop Arguing, Start Winning | Kwame Christian

Kwame Christian 0:00 The difference between being right and being persuasive. You can be as right as you want to be [laughs] and it doesn't matter because the part of the brain that processes logically just doesn't work.

Codie Sanchez 0:11 Today we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better and take some power back in the way that you communicate. I'm stealing all of the homework from Kwame Christian.

Kwame Christian 0:21 A lot of why these conversations go awry, we have to understand the, the mechanics of memory. I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words. Memory is bad. When I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills.

Codie Sanchez 0:39 What are the best comebacks to use when you need them?

Kwame Christian 0:42 What you do instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. A lot of times we win arguments, but lose the relationship.

Kwame Christian 0:51 Resentment builds up.

Codie Sanchez 0:52 [Instrumental music] Hello and welcome back to The Big Deal podcast. I'm Codie Sanchez, and today we're talking to the man who is going to help you negotiate better, maybe help you stop arguing so much, make more money when you do have discussions with people. We're gonna take his years of lawmaking and negotiation experience, and we're gonna bring it right to you so we can steal his 10,000 hours. Kwame, I wanna start off with a personal question.

Kwame Christian 1:18 Let's do it.

Codie Sanchez 1:18 What was, like, a pivotal moment in your life when you realized negotiation could change everything for the good or the bad?

Kwame Christian 1:27 For me, it was law school. That's where I really discovered that this was a skill, not a talent.

Codie Sanchez 1:31 Mm.

Kwame Christian 1:31 And it was just eye-opening for me because my origin story is a little bit different from most negotiation experts. I was a people pleaser for the majority of my life.

Codie Sanchez 1:40 Mm.

Kwame Christian 1:40 And so from that point, when I stepped into that class and I realized, "Wait a second, this is a skill, I could get better at it," it was really empowering. So for me it was every time I had that tough conversation, it was a vote of confidence for the man that I ultimately wanted to become.

Codie Sanchez 1:54 Mm.

Kwame Christian 1:54 But then I realized, though, that if I was feeling this way, other people were feeling this way too. Lots of people living limited lives just because they didn't know that they had what it took to have the conversations. So that's really what put me on this direction.

Codie Sanchez 2:07 So now when you argue with somebody-

Kwame Christian 2:09 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 2:10 ... do you, do you feel like what I feel, like I'm, I'm sweaty, I'm nervous, my heart rate's racing? Or have you found ways where you can argue and feel at peace?

Kwame Christian 2:20 Well, depends on the conversation, right? And first of all, I, I try not to argue-

Codie Sanchez 2:24 Mm

Kwame Christian 2:24 ... because usually when it comes to argumentation in, in the real world, you know, for me as a lawyer, like, we argue for a living, right? But my wife has told me that when she describes me as a lawyer it's not a compliment [laughs] outside of the workplace, right? Nobody wants to be a lawyer. Nobody likes to be on the other side of an argument.

Codie Sanchez 2:41 Mm.

Kwame Christian 2:41 And when you think about it, even if you do win an argument, it comes at a cost.

Codie Sanchez 2:46 Mm.

Kwame Christian 2:47 Usually the person just submits momentarily, and they try to get you back later. It hurts the relationship. So when, but back to your original question, when I'm, like, in wor- at work, when I'm negotiating business deals, I can stay pretty calm-

Codie Sanchez 2:59 Mm

Kwame Christian 2:59 ... pretty cool because I know that if I get the deal, that's great. If I don't, I'll be fine. It's at home. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 3:06 Mm.

Kwame Christian 3:06 That's when my skills disappear and things become hard because the relationship matters so much.

Codie Sanchez 3:12 When you have been, you know, arguing or litigating or, um, you know, doing deal-making, let's say, as a lawyer, what is the worst way you c- could start a conversation?

Kwame Christian 3:23 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 3:24 What is the worst way that you see people start, and do you have a specific moment where you're like, "Ugh, this happened, and I knew it was gonna go sideways"?

Kwame Christian 3:32 Yeah. There's so many wrong ways [laughs] to start these conversations. Usually, I think a big part of it is starting with the fact that we believe that we're right.

Codie Sanchez 3:40 Mm.

Kwame Christian 3:40 And here's the thing: We might actually be correct-

Codie Sanchez 3:43 Mm

Kwame Christian 3:43 ... but the way that we carry ourselves as we communicate that might make that wrong, right? And that's the thing, because there's a difference between being right and being persuasive.

Codie Sanchez 3:52 Mm.

Kwame Christian 3:53 And if we start off by saying, "I'm right because of this," what we are implying to them is that they are wrong. And so now it's not even about the thing anymore. It's about them asserting themselves in the conversation because they don't want to be dominated in the interaction. A lot of times we win arguments, but lose the relationship. Resentment builds up, right? So you might get what you want in the moment. They might comply or submit in the moment, but then the whole time while they're complying, they are finding little sneaky ways to undermine you, even if it's subconscious, right? Think about if somebody forces you to do something, you feel disrespected. You're not gonna bring your best self to the table.

Codie Sanchez 4:30 Mm.

Kwame Christian 4:30 And I don't, I don't think a lot of people take the time to appreciate those hidden costs of success in these conversations. We have to really take the time to m- make a meaningful connection.

Codie Sanchez 4:41 Mm.

Kwame Christian 4:41 And sometimes that's the issue. It's not even the, the problem that brought this conversation to the table. It's the fact that there is a lack of connection and the person just wants to be seen, heard, and understood.

Codie Sanchez 4:53 Such a good point because I think, you know, e- especially in, in relationships where you're with somebody, you know, married or in a partnership, I mean, I remember I was married previously, and I remember, uh, I have the ... You talk about flight, fight, or freeze.

Kwame Christian 5:09 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 5:10 I have-- I suppose it's, it's flight. It's like, "I don't wanna deal with it." It's not necessarily running. It's just like, "I know where this argument is going. I can almost see three steps into the future."

Kwame Christian 5:20 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 5:20 "I'm not smart enough or skilled enough to get out of it. And so I almost am just gonna shut down and either try to get away from the situation or try to not engage because, um, I can't figure out a way where it just doesn't turn into an argument and nothing, uh, solves."

Kwame Christian 5:36 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 5:36 And I think, you know, what happened, at least in that situation, is, like, that happened for so long that finally by the end I was just like, "I'm really tired. I'm just tired."

Kwame Christian 5:45 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 5:45 You know? And, and yeah, you win, and

Codie Sanchez 5:47 I'll do it this way, and you're right, and I'm wrong, and I don't care anymore. And now, like, even worse than, than fighting is, um, when you don't care.

Kwame Christian 5:55 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 5:55 You know?

Kwame Christian 5:56 Yeah. It's like the fights can be really bad, but then when the fights stop, [laughs] that-

Codie Sanchez 6:01 Mm

Kwame Christian 6:01 ... can be even worse.

Codie Sanchez 6:03 Mm.

Kwame Christian 6:03 And just the way that you describe that, sometimes we are hesitant to be that vulnerable and say that specifically.

Codie Sanchez 6:10 Mm.

Kwame Christian 6:10 Because a real, a s- powerful conversation could come from the fact that you could just say, "Hey, listen. We find ourselves constantly in these conversations, and I feel like I'm constantly getting rolled over in these conversations, and I don't feel respected, and I'm concerned about what this means for the relationship." Just start with that and say that. And a lotta times we're afraid of doing that. I call it commentating the conversation.

Codie Sanchez 6:33 Mm.

Kwame Christian 6:33 So imagine if the, the conversation is like a, uh, like a sporting event. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 6:37 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 6:37 And then you have commentators that are up in the booth observing it just objectively. So what I like to do is I try to pull them out to that commentator's booth with me.

Codie Sanchez 6:45 Mm.

Kwame Christian 6:45 It's like, "Hey, you see what's happening here? This isn't good." [laughs] Right?

Codie Sanchez 6:48 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 6:48 I, I think there's something we both could change in order to make this interaction better, and just being that honest and blunt can be really, really helpful.

Codie Sanchez 6:56 You know, one of the other things that you talked about, you talk about commenting, which is really useful. You also talk about anchoring-

Kwame Christian 7:03 Yes

Codie Sanchez 7:03 ... and how important that is. Can you explain what anchoring is and how to use it in an argument?

Kwame Christian 7:07 Yeah. So anchoring is a, a psychological bias, right? It's a principle that essentially if we take, take it to the negotiation space-

Codie Sanchez 7:14 Mm-hmm

Kwame Christian 7:14 ... it's starting off the negotiation with the most aggressive request that we can reasonably justify.

Codie Sanchez 7:19 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 7:19 So here's why, and I have a fun study to share with you if you like this.

Codie Sanchez 7:23 Love studies.

Kwame Christian 7:23 Right? I'm a, I'm a nerd, so I love this. So they did this study where they broke people up into two groups, and so one group they asked them a very simple question. They said, "Do you think Gandhi was older than or younger than 14 when he died?" Dumb question, right? [laughs] Okay. So they said, "Older." Duh. Right? The next group, "Do you think he was older than or younger than 140 when he died?" Dumb question. "Younger," right? Then they asked them the same final question: "How old do you think he was when he died?" And the group that was primed with 14 guessed on average 17 years younger than the group that was primed with 140. So it shows how even a nonsensical number can have a disproportionate impact on people's perspectives. So in negotiation, what we're doing with anchoring is we're setting a brand-new reference point for the entirety of the conversation.

Codie Sanchez 8:09 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 8:09 So what is the starting point? And every other deal, every other counter will be compared to that initial starting point.

Codie Sanchez 8:15 Mm.

Kwame Christian 8:15 And so a lotta times people ask me, "Well, Kwame, who should make the first offer, me or the other side?" It depends because of anchoring. So if I have as much information or more information, I'm always gonna make the first offer because I know the power of anchoring. I'm not gonna give that away to the other side. But if they know more than me and I know that, then I'm gonna sit back, wait for their offer, and then counter because every offer comes with information, and then I can re-anchor off of my counter.

Codie Sanchez 8:42 That's such a good point because that is typically the, that adage in negotiation is never be the first one to put a price on the table.

Kwame Christian 8:49 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 8:49 Right? So if you're going to buy a business, don't do that. But I find the opposite for sellers of businesses because most small business owners don't really know what their business is worth.

Kwame Christian 8:58 Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 8:59 And, and they want a bigger number. They w- they have, like, some seven-figure idea in their head even if their business is only worth six figures.

Kwame Christian 9:05 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 9:05 And so and what we teach is what you should do instead is, you know, you really want to tell them not just what you would offer for their business but say something like, I'd be curious your take.

Kwame Christian 9:16 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 9:16 I typically say something like, "Well, you know, I'm really interested in your business. I'm so appreciative that you sat down to talk to me. I like to make sure that we're super transparent up front-"

Kwame Christian 9:24 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 9:24 "... about, uh, what businesses trade for and how and why. So let me tell you how I think about it. You can see if, if that works for how you analyze your business."

Kwame Christian 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 9:32 And so I'd say something like, um, "Typically, you know, as you know if you go and look at BizBuySell or some of the biggest sites out there for buying and selling businesses, businesses trade for 2 to 3x the profits of the business. And so on average we're dealing with 2 to 3x profits of the business. Now, there are some

Codie Sanchez 9:48 things that, that maneuver a little bit on both sides, but, like, that's industry average. Like, you probably already know that, but I like to just set the precedent."

Kwame Christian 9:54 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 9:54 "What do you think about that?"

Kwame Christian 9:55 See, I know what you're doing here, Codie.

Codie Sanchez 9:57 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 9:57 So you just wanted to show off how good you were. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 10:00 [laughs] No.

Kwame Christian 10:01 This was-

Codie Sanchez 10:01 'Cause if I'm bad I wanna know-

Kwame Christian 10:02 No

Codie Sanchez 10:02 ... so you can help me do more deals.

Kwame Christian 10:03 This is textbook.

Codie Sanchez 10:04 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 10:05 It's textbook. It's perfect for a number of reasons. First of all, you're dropping the anchor.

Codie Sanchez 10:08 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 10:08 You're also being really respective, respectful, so you're demonstrating that this is a collaborative approach.

Codie Sanchez 10:13 Mm.

Kwame Christian 10:13 You're not trying to steamroll them, but you're also following the because test. So this is the way that you know whether or not your anchor is legit.

Codie Sanchez 10:20 Mm.

Kwame Christian 10:20 So you need to be able to finish the sentence, "I'm offering this because blank," and then you fill it in with objective and legitimate criteria.

Codie Sanchez 10:28 Mm.

Kwame Christian 10:28 So objective, it comes from a third party. Legitimate, it's something that both parties would respect. And so you do that flawlessly while at the same time doing what a lot of negotiators miss when they're making that offer, is you're making it clear that this is a collaborative approach. "I respect you. You respect me. W- I want to hear from you. How do you feel about it?" That's perfect.

Codie Sanchez 10:47 Oh, it's really good the frameworks-

Kwame Christian 10:48 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 10:48 ... that you use to explain because I wouldn't have said, um- You know, one plus one equals two, and here's how the formula goes

Kwame Christian 10:56 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 10:57 What other formulas do you use in negotiating, or frameworks where you're like, "Once you see this framework, you will understand how to negotiate this"?

Kwame Christian 11:05 Oh, yes. So for me, w- what I do with my- m- my podcast, Negotiate Anything, uh, we've had 1,600 episodes [laughs] of the podcast, so my job is learning from the best negotiators and communicators

Kwame Christian 11:18 in the world.

Codie Sanchez 11:18 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 11:18 So I wanted to see what everybody was saying, but saying differently.

Codie Sanchez 11:21 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 11:21 So FBI agents, CIA agents, like, all of these folks, what are they saying differently? So for me, I put it into this mental model I call compassionate curiosity. So it's a simple three-step approach. First, we're going to assume that there's, uh, an emotional challenge, so we're going to acknowledge and validate the emotions. Then, once the emotional temperature has dropped down, we're going to ask questions. So it's getting curious with compassion. That's number two. And then number three is use joint problem-solving. So it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem.

Codie Sanchez 11:49 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 11:49 We're going to try to solve this together.

Codie Sanchez 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 11:51 So you know what to say and when to say it for maximum impact. So you, it's not rigid, you just flow through it.

Codie Sanchez 11:56 That's so good.

Kwame Christian 11:57 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 11:57 So let's, actually, this is so perfect, 'cause I wanted to get really tactical.

Kwame Christian 12:00 Let's do it.

Codie Sanchez 12:01 I have all these questions that I'm gonna have, like, okay, Kwame, make me some money.

Kwame Christian 12:04 [laughs] Yes.

Codie Sanchez 12:04 'Cause I actually, I do think your bank account gets bigger based on a few things. The faster you move, the more risk you take, the more you learn from the risk you take, and how well you can communicate.

Kwame Christian 12:14 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 12:15 And, like, if you have those four things, plus, uh, you're willing to, to do hard things, I think it's a lot easier to make money. But probably hard conversations are one of the, the most difficult things to do. It's almost like we get this, this feeling that it might be physical.

Kwame Christian 12:29 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 12:29 And so what... You know, I wanted to start with, like, a couple of really, uh, difficult ones. Like, in life, you are gonna have people you don't like.

Kwame Christian 12:38 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 12:38 Like, what do you say to someone when you don't like them to start a hard conversation? [laughs]

Kwame Christian 12:44 So you say, "Listen, Codie, I don't like you." [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 12:46 Exactly. I'm like, that's how I do it.

Kwame Christian 12:49 So I, I think it's, one of the things that happens we, is we unintentionally gaslight people-

Codie Sanchez 12:54 Mm

Kwame Christian 12:54 ... into pretending that we don't know what happened in the past.

Codie Sanchez 12:57 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 12:57 Right? And so that causes resistance from the beginning of the conversation. If we've had beef in the past and I just come up and act like everything's okay, that's, like, disrespectful, right?

Codie Sanchez 13:07 Yes.

Kwame Christian 13:07 So what I wanna do is, again, with the framework, my acknowledgement is just, "I'm gonna clear the air." I'm just gonna say, "Hey, listen, I know in the past we've had our challenges, and my goal in this conversation is to have a, just connect with you so we can try to get back on track. I'm not going to deny the reality that we both know exists," right? "I want to make it clear my goal here is to work with you. I'm not trying to argue with you and say you were wrong or re-litigate the past or anything. Things happened in the past, let's leave it in the past, and let's figure out what our future is gonna be together." And that's one of the most powerful things you can do to make a conversation more productive, especially when there's been resentment and hurt in the past. Just focus on the grammatical tense of the conversation. Pain, resentment, frustration, judgment, all of that exists in the past. It's hard to be mad at something that hasn't happened yet. So what I like to do is I sacrifice the past to win the future.

Codie Sanchez 13:59 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 13:59 So the person might say, "Kwame, you did this, you did that," and I said, "Hey, listen, I know that I've made mistakes in the past, and what I want to do is get us back on track to make sure that we don't make those mistakes again. Considering that, what should we do now?" Right?

Codie Sanchez 14:12 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 14:12 And so just keep it focused on the future.

Codie Sanchez 14:14 That's, that's fascinating, because I think it seems scary to say the quiet part out loud-

Kwame Christian 14:20 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 14:20 ... first, but it's almost like deflating a balloon.

Kwame Christian 14:23 Absolutely.

Codie Sanchez 14:23 Like, if you, if you let the air out, then it, it's just hard to stay so coiled.

Kwame Christian 14:26 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 14:27 Um, which is so useful. You know, you brought up gaslighting, which is-

Kwame Christian 14:31 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 14:32 You know, I have so many thoughts about it, because I think on the internet a lot of people are like, "They gaslit me, they're a narcissist."

Kwame Christian 14:37 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 14:37 And it's like, is everybody a gaslighting narcissist-

Kwame Christian 14:39 [laughs] I know

Codie Sanchez 14:39 ... or is, like, what's happening here? You've watched too many Instagrams telling you you're right all the time. But, um, I do think, and I find it even in some of my arguments-

Kwame Christian 14:49 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 14:49 ... um, like I, and you would probably know this, but is there data or studies that show that when people fight, they can't remember what the other party said? Because I think sometimes there's gaslighting that's actually just like, "You think that this just happened? I literally think this just happened," but we're in the same situation.

Kwame Christian 15:08 Yes, and I will also say this, the, in order for us to understand a lot of why these conversations go awry, we have to understand the, the mechanics of memory, right?

Codie Sanchez 15:17 Mm.

Kwame Christian 15:17 I will teach you everything you need to know about memory in three words, okay? Memory is bad. [laughs] Your memory is horrible. Let me give you an example that happened just today. So we got a deal that came through, an offer, and, um, I was super excited about it. I was like, "This is amazing. It just came into our lap. This is fantastic. Check this person out. Look how big they are. This is great." And then my [laughs] my, my head of sales said, "If you recall, a couple weeks ago I told you I was working this, and this is her responding to me." [laughs] I was like, "I'm s- I'm really sorry, bro. [laughs] I, I did not mean to do this, and I promise you it will certainly happen again."

Codie Sanchez 15:54 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 15:54 Because memory's bad, right?

Codie Sanchez 15:56 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 15:56 So a lot of times, the, when we are accusing somebody of gaslighting, it might be unintentional. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. But what we need to do is pay attention to patterns. If we are in a position where over and over and over again we are finding ourselves in these weird miscommunications about what is real or what has occurred, that's a problem in itself, right?

Codie Sanchez 16:17 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 16:17 And I think we have to take a step back and just recognize

Kwame Christian 16:20 that. It might be an accident, and then sometimes it might be intentional gaslighting, and if it's the latter, then the best thing you can do is not try to win that argument about what is real. Once you've identified a person as gaslighting or manipulative, you need to pull back and try to get yourself that freedom that you need, because what they want is more engagement. What they want are more opportunities to manipulate you, and you need to deprive them of, of those opportunities.

Codie Sanchez 16:46 So is that how you handle gaslighting?

Kwame Christian 16:50 Yeah, I think it's-- think about, think about it through the lens of negotiation, right? Where does your power come from in a negotiation? It's your alternatives.

Codie Sanchez 16:57 Mm.

Kwame Christian 16:57 So your best alternative to a negotiated agreement, your BATNA. And it's when you feel, when you feel the most powerless is when you don't have opportunities or al- alternatives.

Codie Sanchez 17:07 Mm.

Kwame Christian 17:07 So in these relationships, when we are being gaslit or manipulated, for some reason inside of ourselves, we feel like we need this person or relationship. So the key to break free isn't, uh, trying to convince them to be good people.

Codie Sanchez 17:23 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 17:23 The way to break free is to figure out what's inside of you that's con- keeping you connected to them and figuring out how you can get the strength to break free and live a life without them.

Codie Sanchez 17:32 Mm. That's really good. What about, let's say that we do wanna end some arguments.

Kwame Christian 17:37 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 17:37 Like, how would-- what phrases would you use, and what would you do to end an argument?

Kwame Christian 17:42 Ah, so walk away clean, or actually do you want me to teach you how to dunk on people? I could do both.

Codie Sanchez 17:47 Ooh, let's do both.

Kwame Christian 17:48 [laughs] Okay.

Codie Sanchez 17:49 Let's do one, let's do one where you show us to walk away clean first.

Kwame Christian 17:52 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 17:52 And then I wanna talk about talking back better than Ari-

Kwame Christian 17:55 [laughs] Okay

Codie Sanchez 17:55 ... from Entourage.

Kwame Christian 17:56 Fair.

Codie Sanchez 17:56 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 17:56 Let's do it.

Codie Sanchez 17:57 Okay.

Kwame Christian 17:57 So with the first one, walking away clean, I think all we need to do is, first, just acknowledge progress, right? And then let them know that we're done. It's really quite simple. So if I'm seeing a conversation is starting to break down, and we, we get to a point where things are falling apart, let's acknowledge, first of all, the human mind has a limited capacity for focus and attention. So back when I was a mediator, I would recognize after 60 to 90 minutes, people just started to fade. And when you start to fade, you start to get angry. [laughs] You start to get, you know, a little bit upset. And so I said, "We've accomplished everything that we could today. Let's come back and finish it another day," right? And so in these conversations, what I'll say is I'll own it. I'm not gonna say, um, "You're fading and falling apart." [laughs] Okay? I'll just say, "Hey, Codie, I, I really appreciate this conversation. I think we accomplished a lot because when we came into this conversation, we-- it didn't seem like we were on the same page. We didn't understand each other very well. And now even though we didn't accomplish everything, I still think we made progress. So how about this? Let's come back another day. Let's try to wrap this up another day." And if they still wanna go back and forth, then I'll say, "Hey, if there's anything else that you want to say to me, I, I want to pay you the respect of listening. But I don't have anything more to add. I, I need to mull this over a little bit." And then the conversation ends when you say it does.

Codie Sanchez 19:12 That's great. So what if they keep coming? What if you're in an argument, and you say that, "I don't wanna tell you anything else"-

Kwame Christian 19:17 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 19:18 ... but they keep talking at you.

Kwame Christian 19:20 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 19:20 Is there a way to get out of that kind of conversation?

Kwame Christian 19:22 Well, I would, in that, in that moment, I'll just say, again, using compassionate curiosity, I'd say, "Codie, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like there's something that you still want to accomplish here that hasn't been done. Can you help me to understand what it is that you still want to accomplish?"

Codie Sanchez 19:37 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 19:37 And put it back on them because here there are two options, right? Either there is something that was left unsaid, unsaid, and now you've given them the opportunity to say it, or there's nothing, and they just kinda want to hurt you.

Codie Sanchez 19:51 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 19:51 And I think we, we have to just recognize that sometimes as humans, we have inappropriate goals.

Codie Sanchez 19:56 Mm.

Kwame Christian 19:56 They feel bad, and they're putting it on you, and by asking that question explicitly, you're helping them realize that for themselves. "No, I don't have anything [laughs] else to say. I'm just mad, and I'm, [laughs] I'm putting it on you." They're usually not gonna come to that conclusion, but once you ask them, and there's nothing there, then it usually helps them to back off.

Codie Sanchez 20:14 That's a good point because you can just keep asking it. "Is there something else? It seems like there's something else that you want to say."

Kwame Christian 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 20:19 And at some point, they're gonna even realize how repetitive they are.

Kwame Christian 20:22 Exactly. And a, a good thing to throw in there is a summary. "So it's-- so based on what you said, this is a challenge, this is a challenge, and you're upset about this. Is there anything in addition to that that you haven't already told me-

Codie Sanchez 20:33 Mm

Kwame Christian 20:33 ... that you'd like me to know?" Because a lotta times, people just start to spiral and cycle over the things that are causing them pain, and now the conversation is really unproductive.

Codie Sanchez 20:42 Yeah, it's great. You guys, if you liked this episode, wait until you see what we are going to do live at MSM Live. You guys will love the negotiation segment that we are gonna do together. If you haven't already signed up for this three-day event on how to buy businesses, do deals, negotiate, you are going to wanna do that. Make sure to click the link in the bio. MSM Live, we only do it one time a year, and you're gonna wanna be there. What about, [sighs] you know, we're kinda talking about overexplaining.

Kwame Christian 21:11 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 21:11 How do you stop overexplaining yourself in an argument?

Kwame Christian 21:15 Ooh, this is good because here's the thing, because when we are overexplaining, what we're doing is we're giving away our power to the other side.

Codie Sanchez 21:23 Mm.

Kwame Christian 21:23 When we are overexplaining, it means that we are seeking validation from somebody outside of ourselves-

Codie Sanchez 21:29 Mm

Kwame Christian 21:29 ... and we are asking from them-

Codie Sanchez 21:31 Mm

Kwame Christian 21:31 ... something that we are incapable of giving to ourselves. And so the key is to [laughs] try to break free from that conversation and do some internal work. Why is it that I can't get what I need in this moment, right?

Codie Sanchez 21:45 Mm.

Kwame Christian 21:45 And I think about in, even in my relationship, in times where, for instance, my wife, she's in, uh-- she's a doctor, but I remember we had our first son in residency. And it was tough because, uh, we got married graduation day [laughs] of undergrad, so we've been together all the time. Spent a lotta time together. But then when she was in residency, we had the baby, and I was launching my company. It was very tough. We didn't have as much time, and I found myself having these conversations with her, these arguments, because I had these needs because I, I was feeling lonely. Then I realized, "Wait a second. I've-- I have a challenge with being alone. I cannot handle solitude."

Codie Sanchez 22:20 Mm.

Kwame Christian 22:20 There's a difference between being s- enjoying solitude and being lonely, right?

Codie Sanchez 22:25 Mm.

Kwame Christian 22:25 And whenever I'm no-- whenever I was by myself, I felt lonely-

Codie Sanchez 22:28 Mm

Kwame Christian 22:28 ... not experiencing solitude. So I recognized that what I needed to do was learn how to satisfy myself by spending time with myself and recognize that I am just, uh, as legitimate of a partner to spend time with as her.

Codie Sanchez 22:42 Mm.

Kwame Christian 22:42 And so whenever we find ourselves overexplaining, we have to recognize that we are giving away our power to other people-

Codie Sanchez 22:48 Mm

Kwame Christian 22:48 ... seeking something from them, and if we can find that source within ourselves, now we're gonna be more empowered communicators.

Codie Sanchez 22:55 Yeah. Is there some sort of trigger or reminder that you tell yourself when you hear yourself over-explaining in an argument-

Kwame Christian 23:03 Mm

Codie Sanchez 23:03 ... to stop yourself?

Kwame Christian 23:04 [laughs] I, it's probably not very kind-

Codie Sanchez 23:09 Yeah, yeah

Kwame Christian 23:09 ... to, to say out loud. [laughs] My, my internal voice can be very harsh sometimes.

Codie Sanchez 23:14 I feel that me too.

Kwame Christian 23:14 But, [laughs] but I think it's just recognizing, wait, like, what are we doing here?

Codie Sanchez 23:18 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 23:19 What are we doing here? And you have to ha- you have to be self-aware enough to recognize that in yourself. And one of the things that I've started to do that's helped me when it comes to these conversations in general, um, and I'm giving people the, the license to just watch trashy TV now-

Codie Sanchez 23:34 Ooh

Kwame Christian 23:34 ... is [laughs] when you are watching reality TV and you see these conversations break down, because they will, they will break down, I want you to start to pay attention to why they break down.

Codie Sanchez 23:45 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 23:45 What is happening? What was the inflection point that led to the conversation going left when it should've stayed right?

Codie Sanchez 23:50 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 23:50 What, uh, what is it that this person seems to need that the other person cannot give them, right? And it's sometimes it's so much easier to see that challenge in other people than it is to see it in ourselves. But once you start to get into that habit of identifying those challenges in other people, then it helps you to increase your own self-awareness in the conversation.

Codie Sanchez 24:12 I was listening actually to a friend of mine, Chris Williamson, talk about-

Kwame Christian 24:15 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 24:15 ... lately how, um, he sometimes asks himself, "If you were, uh, if your life was a TV show and a bunch of people were watching you, what would they be screaming at you to do right now that is so obvious to them-"

Kwame Christian 24:29 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 24:29 "... but not obvious to you?" And he was talking about it from more of a life experience perspective, what do you do next with your life, but it's almost interesting to think about it from a, a ... That it's almost like we're moving back. You talked about it, like commenting.

Kwame Christian 24:41 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 24:41 How can you go up to the commentator's box?

Kwame Christian 24:43 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 24:43 How can you look down on the field and say, "This is very obvious for, for Kwame down here, but he can't see it-"

Kwame Christian 24:48 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 24:48 "... because he's too close to it."

Kwame Christian 24:49 Yeah. Well, something that I've done is it's actually something I got from a client. So they said, "Whenever I'm in a tough conversation, I just ask myself, 'What would Kwame say in this conversation?' And then I say that, and things go well." And I was like, damn, why don't I do that? [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 25:04 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 25:05 Like, when I'm struggling, I, now I say, "What would I tell a client to do?" And it becomes very clear 'cause here's the thing. [laughs] You, it's really easy for us to give advice to other people, right?

Codie Sanchez 25:17 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 25:17 Think about some, so many people who give advice are not taking their own advice.

Codie Sanchez 25:21 Totally.

Kwame Christian 25:21 Right? And so if I just take, take a step back and act like I'm coaching myself and say, "Huh, what would you tell somebody else to do in this conversation," it becomes really clear. And it's, it's humbling, Codie. It's so humbling. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 25:34 Now, you promised me that you had some responses, some comebacks.

Kwame Christian 25:37 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 25:37 Like, what do you do to, to get-

Kwame Christian 25:39 Yes

Codie Sanchez 25:39 ... like, what are the best comebacks to use when you need them?

Kwame Christian 25:43 So here's the key. First of all, in effective n- negotiation and effective communication, the goal is to speak more, speak less than you listen.

Codie Sanchez 25:50 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 25:51 Right? So when I, I follow the 70/30 rule, so I try to get the other side speaking 70% of the time. I'm only speaking 30% of the time.

Codie Sanchez 25:58 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 25:58 And so for me, if I really wanna break somebody down, um, what I'll do is I'll start asking really pointed questions, not in a clearly leading way, but I want them to explain themselves.

Codie Sanchez 26:09 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 26:09 So if you're saying you believe this thing or you think this thing is right, I'll just say, "Okay, can you help me to understand how you came to that conclusion? Okay, good. All right, so it sounds like you believe this because of this reason, right? Good." So I'm gonna show them, hey, listen, I'm still listening to you, but I'm gonna help them to build their case, and as they're building their case, I'm seeing the vulnerabilities.

Codie Sanchez 26:27 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 26:27 And then I'm going to ask a question that exposes a contradiction. "Earlier you said this, but off- I've seen this as well, so can you help me to understand that discrepancy?" Right? And so I don't even need to say anything, Codie. I just need to help them to recognize [laughs] that they are off base.

Codie Sanchez 26:45 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 26:46 And the thing is, in these s- situations, I'm not trying to hurt them or dominate them in the conversation. I just want them to come off the point. And a lotta times people don't recognize that a lot of their strongest beliefs are built on bias and really nothing else.

Codie Sanchez 27:00 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 27:00 It's vibes and nothing else. There's no substance to it. But they might be imposing their beliefs on you without recognizing that they don't even understand why they believe what they believe.

Codie Sanchez 27:10 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 27:10 And so what you do, instead of telling them they're wrong, you help them to figure out how wrong they are themselves. So you give them the injection of humility by helping them to realize that there's no substance behind their argument.

Codie Sanchez 27:23 And the key to that is really

Codie Sanchez 27:25 just questions instead of statements.

Kwame Christian 27:27 Exactly. Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 27:28 So you are showing the gap each time by asking questions continuously, uh, as opposed to what I do in arguments-

Kwame Christian 27:34 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 27:34 ... which is, like, "You said this. Why did you s- say that?"

Kwame Christian 27:36 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 27:37 Those are statements which just lead to, to more conflict.

Kwame Christian 27:40 Exactly. So think of it, think of it this way. I think about N- um, Newton's third law of motion, right?

Codie Sanchez 27:46 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 27:46 Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Codie Sanchez 27:48 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 27:48 So Kwame's first law of argumentation is every point has an equal and opposite counterpoint. So every time you make a point, they're gonna keep coming back at a point 'cause you know they're not listening.

Codie Sanchez 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 27:58 Doesn't matter how right you are, Codie. They're not listening. So, and then let's bring it back to the psychology. Let's talk about why this happens because you talked about fight, flight, or freeze. This is the amygdala, the limbic system activating. We want their frontal lobe to be activated. That's where rational thought comes from. So w- we have to recognize that there's an antagonistic relationship between the amygdala and the frontal lobe.

Codie Sanchez 28:20 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 28:20 So the more emotional they are, the less clearly they're thinking. The more clearly th- they're thinking, the less emotional they are. It's an either/or proposition. So you can be as right as you want to be, [laughs] and it doesn't matter because the part of the brain that processes logically just isn't working.

Codie Sanchez 28:38 Wow. So good to know.

Kwame Christian 28:40 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 28:41 What about, um, what ... We talked about how do you talk to somebody who doesn't or that you don't like.

Kwame Christian 28:47 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 28:47 How do you talk to somebody who doesn't like you? What do you change?

Kwame Christian 28:51 Hmm. Ooh, that's a good one. That is a good one because first of all, we have to understand where that comes from. Sometimes it's vibe, like oil and water.

Codie Sanchez 29:00 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 29:00 We just, we don't, we're not compatible.

Codie Sanchez 29:02 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 29:02 Sometimes it's because of what happened in the past, right? And so in those conversations, what I wanna do is instead of just focusing on the actual argument or conflict, usually the problem comes long before that.

Codie Sanchez 29:14 Mm.

Kwame Christian 29:14 It's a deficiency of trust, right?

Codie Sanchez 29:16 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 29:17 Def- def- deficiency of likability. So when we think about it very, very basically, let's think about this fundamental rule of trust. Trust is gained in drips, but lost in buckets. You make a mistake, you lose all of it, but in order to build it up, it takes time. It takes repeated interactions. Think about this other thing. Have you ever had a situation where you heard a song, and the first time you hear a song you're like, "Oh, it's, it's okay." And then you keep on hearing it over and over again, then you're like, "Man, I vibe to this. I like this," right?

Codie Sanchez 29:45 Yep.

Kwame Christian 29:46 So in psychology, that's called the mere exposure effect.

Codie Sanchez 29:49 Mm.

Kwame Christian 29:49 So the more you're exposed to a stimulus, as long as it's not negative, if it's neutral or positive, you'll start to like it more. And so the problem is, Codie, a lot of times with certain people, we only interact with them when there's a problem. We only interact with them when, when there's a problem. So you're not Codie.

Codie Sanchez 30:05 Mm.

Kwame Christian 30:05 You're just bad news [laughs] to, to them, right? And so we just need to warm up the relationship and lower the stakes of each conversation. Let's find ways to interact with each other, even if it's two minutes, five minutes, just a little positive warm interaction.

Kwame Christian 30:20 Those little things really matter.

Codie Sanchez 30:22 What do you think the ratio is of negative interactions to positive interactions to make sure that you have that mere exposure effect positively?

Kwame Christian 30:30 Studies say it's five to one. Yeah. And I was, I was doing a coaching call earlier today, and I talked about that, 'cause they were talking about how hard it is to give feedback. I said, "One of the reasons why it's so hard is because we don't give positive feedback." We don't do positive reinforcement. We don't tell people when we like them.

Codie Sanchez 30:46 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 30:46 And so the only time we have a conversation with them about

Kwame Christian 30:49 performance or something that they did is when something bad happens, but we don't take the time to realize this fact. Usually, if you're not bringing up anything about their performance, it's because they're performing well-

Codie Sanchez 30:59 Right

Kwame Christian 30:59 ... and you don't say anything about it. And so we have to take the time to give people real, legitimate compliments when they perform well. Uh, and when you start to actually give a person a real compliment, like, it, it hits them in their heart, right? It, it hits them differently. Not like, "Oh, that was a good job." No, let's be specific. So you want an example?

Codie Sanchez 31:19 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 31:20 I'll give you an example. So there was a, um... Actually, I think I was in your hometown. I think it was Austin, Texas. I was talking to an Uber driver,

Kwame Christian 31:26 and so she was talking about the work she do- that she does in the community, and she said, "Oh, I always thought by this age I would have kids, but I don't have kids. But I just really pour into my community. I try to give back as much as possible. I volunteer." So I was just hearing everything that she was saying, and then at the end of the, the ride, I just paused, and I was like, "You know what? You might not have achieved that one goal, but it seems like you actually have more children than you realize-

Codie Sanchez 31:53 Mm

Kwame Christian 31:53 ... because of the impact that you've had." She just-

Codie Sanchez 31:56 Crying

Kwame Christian 31:56 ... she cried.

Codie Sanchez 31:57 I would be crying.

Kwame Christian 31:58 She just cried, you know. And so you have to take the time to listen, understand what people really, really want, and then tell them with specificity. Let them know that you see them, because a lot of the people today, they just live their life completely unseen.

Codie Sanchez 32:12 Oof. So if you were gonna put this into practice, what would you tell people to do with members of their team and with their loved ones on a more consistent basis? Are you, like, keeping track of positive to negative interactions? Like, what could people do right now today to make better relationships knowing this kind of crazy framework?

Kwame Christian 32:29 Pick up your phone right now, think of somebody that you care about, tell them why you appreciate them. That's it. No reason. No reason, no agenda. That's it. That's one really meaningful deposit in the relationship.

Codie Sanchez 32:43 You know, it's funny you say that because my husband does a great job of this. He will often, when he thinks of somebody, send them a text and just say, "Hey, I'm thinking about you, and here's why," you know, whatever real reason. And then say, "By the way, that was all, like, no need to respond. Just wanted you to know you're on my mind."

Kwame Christian 32:56 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 32:57 Which is also kind of a gift, too, because you're not saying, "Hey, you have to open this conversation." Just know that you're being thought of today.

Kwame Christian 33:02 That's it.

Codie Sanchez 33:02 Which I thought-

Kwame Christian 33:03 Yes

Codie Sanchez 33:03 ... was really beautiful.

Kwame Christian 33:04 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 33:04 Let's go to the opposite side of this. Like, [lips smack] how do you expose bad behavior in communication?

Kwame Christian 33:12 Hmm. In the way that they are communicating?

Codie Sanchez 33:15 Yeah. So how do you... Like, let's say right now you're in an office space. You know, you're with your coworkers, and you know, you know that the way that they're operating is not, not basically unethic, maybe not what you want them to do. Um, and you've maybe even talked to them about it before, but you kinda can't get them to see your side.

Kwame Christian 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 33:34 You don't know how to point out that what they're doing is not correct, or you feel that it's not correct. Like, how do you expose that bad behavior and communicate it in a way that they could hear it?

Kwame Christian 33:44 Well, first, to that challenge, one of the biggest problems is that you might be the only person who recognized that there is a problem.

Codie Sanchez 33:51 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 33:51 [laughs] So you have to be the person bringing the conversation, and then overthinking holds us back, and then the conversation almost seems irrelevant because we've overthought it [laughs] so much-

Codie Sanchez 34:00 Yeah

Kwame Christian 34:00 ... that the behavior has passed far in the, in, in, in the rear view mirror. So first of all, we have to just give ourselves a shot clock for an- action.

Codie Sanchez 34:07 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 34:07 So when I see a problem, I say, "Okay, Kwame, yeah, you, you're about to start overthinking this. [laughs] You're not gonna do that now. You got 24 hours to respond."

Codie Sanchez 34:15 Mm.

Kwame Christian 34:15 That, that's what I tell myself. So it's first, it's an internal negotiation. That's the first thing. Then how we actually start the conversation, I like to use the framework of situation, impact, invitation. So situation, I'll describe the situation using naked facts, so facts that are stripped of all interpretation, judgment, or opinion. So no matter who you are or what you think, you can say, "Yeah, that is what happened." Then impact, what did, what impact did it have on me? I'm gonna personalize it, not globalize it, because if I globalize it, then they could say, "No, it didn't have that impact." No, I'm gonna talk about me. And then invitation, when can we talk about it, now or, now or later? So let's say the person is constantly turning in l- reports late, and it's making it really tough for you. So what you'll say is, "Hey, Codie, I wanted to have a conversation with you because we needed the report on Monday, and then we didn't get it until Wednesday, and this made me want to reach out to you because when that happens, it makes it hard for me to do my job. So I wanted to chat with you to see what we could do to get back on track with the way that things are going." Right? Really simple to say, hard in emotionality, but by making it so small, you can r- um, and simple and without overexplaining as you're [laughs] going through it, you can make it a little bit more palatable because our goal is to get into the conversation without unnecessary resistance.

Codie Sanchez 35:32 Yeah, as opposed to probably what most of us do, which is like, "The re- the report is late again. Why didn't you send it, Susan? You're always late."

Kwame Christian 35:38 [laughs] Yes.

Codie Sanchez 35:39 "Like, what do we have to do to change this next time," right?

Kwame Christian 35:41 Yes, exactly, because it starts off with a, what, a, an attack,

Kwame Christian 35:45 right? And then w- to add to that, you use the word why, which often triggers judgment, which almost guarantees that you're gonna get a defensive response, right? And so a lotta times we blame other people for their performance in these conversations, but we don't realize that a lotta times they are simply responding to the way that we address them. And [laughs] how else would they respond in that type of situation? So we wanna make sure that we are not coming into the conversation with more friction than is required, and a lotta times the conversation is doomed from the get-go simply because of how we approached it.

Codie Sanchez 36:19 So if you want somebody to change a behavior, is it wrong to ask them why they did X thing you don't want them to do?

Kwame Christian 36:27 You want to understand why, but you want to try to avoid using the word why because why is associated with judgment. So any question that could start with why can be transitioned to what or how. So why did you do it that way? You could say, "What led to that decision?" Or, "How did you come to that conclusion," right? Or, "What problem were you trying to solve?" Those type of things. So you can still get the same information, 'cause that's vital, but you wanna do it in a way that's less triggering.

Codie Sanchez 36:54 That's so fascinating. So that's just, like, societally we have realized that whenever anybody asks us that, it's judgment.

Kwame Christian 37:00 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Think about when we were kids.

Codie Sanchez 37:02 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 37:02 If [laughs] ...

Codie Sanchez 37:02 Why'd you do that?

Kwame Christian 37:03 Why'd you do that?

Codie Sanchez 37:03 Why'd you do that, Kwame?

Kwame Christian 37:04 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 37:05 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 37:05 Yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 37:05 Okay.

Kwame Christian 37:05 If I'm answering something in class and the teacher's like, "Why do you think?" I was like, "Pssh, sounds like I'm wrong, Professor." [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 37:10 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 37:10 "So why don't you just tell me why I'm wrong," right? [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 37:13 Yeah. Well, I think that the, the, um... You know, some of what you've talked about is, like, how to be at peace while arguing.

Kwame Christian 37:22 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 37:22 And arguing from a place of peace, um, because I- if you... Y- you're, you already talked about it. It's really hard when you're, when you've sort of hijacked your amygdala and you're all emotionally charged to remember not to use the words why or to take a step back. So what do you do when you are really mad and charged-

Kwame Christian 37:39 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 37:40 ... in order to de-charge the situation and have a conversation?

Kwame Christian 37:44 Yes. So first of all, in our preparation, we often take the time to prepare strategically, but we don't take the time to prepare emotionally, right? We just go in and say, "I'm gonna tell him this. I'm gonna tell him that. I'm gonna tell him this." Then they say the thing that hurts our feelings, and we break down, [laughs] right? We coulda seen this coming. So I wanna think through all of the things that could really upset me, that could really, like, throw me off my game and say, "All right, if this happens, then I'll respond in this type of way" so I can essentially emotionally rehearse it, kind of like an Olympian.

Codie Sanchez 38:13 Mm.

Kwame Christian 38:13 Right? With Michael Phelps one time when he won one of his 85 million gold medals, [laughs] he was w- like, the water got into his goggles, but it didn't really matter to him because he had mentally rehearsed it so many times. So when the conversation actually happens and the person says that thing, in your mind you're like, "I knew that was gonna happen. I knew you were [laughs] gonna say that, and it's not gonna hurt me. I'm not gonna give you the satisfaction of showing an emotional response in this situation." Now, even though we take the time to prepare, we will be humans, and sometimes our humanity will show, unfortunately. And so in the... Especially if it's a business situation, Whitney has informed me that this does not look good in a marital situation. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 38:53 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 38:54 I usually have a notepad, right?

Codie Sanchez 38:56 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 38:56 And so if somebody says something that triggers me or something like that, I have my little notepad, and I'll just say, "Oh, that's a really good point, Codie. Can you give me a second to take some notes here?" I'll take some notes. "Codie," usually I'm not writing anything. I'm just pissed. [laughs] I'm just like-

Codie Sanchez 39:11 That's-

Kwame Christian 39:11 ... "Oh, my God."

Codie Sanchez 39:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Kwame Christian 39:12 Right? And so I'm saying, "All right." I'm running through compassionate curiosity internally 'cause it was d- designed for not just the conversation with other people but the conversation with yourself to calm yourself down and get clarity. So I'll say, "Okay, what am I feeling? I'm feeling angry." Well, anger's typically a secondary emotion, not a primary emotion. What else am I feeling? Well, I'm feeling disrespected. Okay, then I'll get curious with self-directed compassion. Why do I feel that way? Well, we've had this conversation a number of times, and I don't know why she keeps on bringing this up, [laughs] right? And so I can do that in about 10 seconds, and then I can come back composed with a question to get the conversation back on track.

Codie Sanchez 39:47 Yeah. I really like to take notes too during arguments.

Kwame Christian 39:50 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 39:50 Chris has also told me it's frowned upon-

Kwame Christian 39:52 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 39:52 ... [laughs] in marital arguments. But, and, and I think it's probably because they think that you're not listening.

Kwame Christian 39:57 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 39:57 Um, but it is relatively hard to deregulate or down-regulate, um, without, like, physical symptoms, you know? You could, like, "Pff," like breathe out or, like, shake your ha- or, like, um, you know, and when I start to get agitated, I move a lot.

Kwame Christian 40:12 Ah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:13 You know, I start, like... I'll start twitching-

Kwame Christian 40:14 Mm

Codie Sanchez 40:14 ... or I'll, like, sort of look around, or I'll, like, start biting my lip.

Kwame Christian 40:17 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 40:17 And I now know sort of what my triggers are.

Kwame Christian 40:19 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 40:19 So I can tell, like, "All right, I'm at a two. I'm at a three."

Kwame Christian 40:22 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 40:22 "I'm at a four." But sometimes, especially with our closest people, it's hard to find a way to down-regulate-

Kwame Christian 40:30 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 40:31 ... that isn't really telling and doesn't become a bigger trigger.

Kwame Christian 40:34 Yeah. Well-

Codie Sanchez 40:34 Have you found any way around that?

Kwame Christian 40:36 My, my move is my toes.

Codie Sanchez 40:38 Toes.

Kwame Christian 40:38 So yeah. So it's like I need to release that tension.

Codie Sanchez 40:41 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 40:41 So I'll just kinda squinch my toes, like, make it a tactile meditation again.

Codie Sanchez 40:45 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 40:45 Make me feel a little bit more grounded. That's really helpful. Um, doing box breathing.

Codie Sanchez 40:50 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 40:50 I know your husband is former military too, so just taking the time to control my breathing. But what I do that's different is I prepare beforehand. So I [laughs] because if I don't prepare, who knows? Maybe it looks like I'm hyperventilating-

Codie Sanchez 41:04 Right

Kwame Christian 41:04 ... or fuming-

Codie Sanchez 41:05 Right

Kwame Christian 41:05 ... in the moment. So I'd actually prepare in the mirror, and I w- I would practice this. Can I take a really slow, deep breath and do brock- box breathing without it being perceived?

Codie Sanchez 41:14 Right.

Kwame Christian 41:14 That too takes practice.

Codie Sanchez 41:16 Oh, true.

Kwame Christian 41:16 And so I'm actually gonna think through my emotional regulation tools before the conversation. I, I think about my four-year-old Right? I was, he was ha- he's been having some tantrums recently, and, um, I've been informed that's what four-year-olds tend to do. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 41:30 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 41:31 I was taking it personally. I'm like, "I teach people to be calm. Look at this kid."

Codie Sanchez 41:35 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 41:36 Right? [laughs] And so I realized I was trying to get him to, to do his deep breathing while he was angry. Then it hit me. The reason why he can't do it is because he's never practiced. I'm asking him to perform on game day with no practice sessions.

Codie Sanchez 41:49 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 41:49 So I just taught him this cue. I said, "Okay, let's pretend like you're blowing out a candle," and I'll do this while he's happy, right? [exhales] Right? And so now that he has reps of doing that without him having a tantrum, now he can do it during a tantrum. We need to treat ourselves the same way. L- what do I look like when I'm taking my deep breaths? Can people see if I'm starting to really freak out [laughs] if I'm taking notes and, and balling up my feet? And so now pe- I might be able to ha- I still have that tension. It doesn't go away, but I have a better way of processing it now.

Codie Sanchez 42:19 That's so useful. It's also useful because then it's not a tell in, like-

Kwame Christian 42:23 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 42:23 ... a negotiation.

Kwame Christian 42:24 Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 42:24 You know, it's one thing with, with ... But I guess it's all a negotiation because even, even in a marriage when you kind of let the other person know you're frustrated-

Kwame Christian 42:33 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 42:33 ... I think that that is also a ... Like, they're like, "Why are you frustrated? I'm the frustrated one."

Kwame Christian 42:37 Mm-hmm. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 42:37 You know? There's a natural inclination for that.

Kwame Christian 42:39 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 42:39 So I love that. I know who I'm sending this episode to, uh, Chris, my husband. [laughs] Also, to every partner that I ever work with. Who are you guys sending this episode to? If you felt like you got something out of this episode, the only way we grow is by you all sharing it. And I think, given what happened with the last episode, a bunch of you guys are starting to share this thing. So show somebody you love them and you want them to be able to communicate better, you want them to be able to get what they want out of the world around them, and share the show. A lot of people get told that they're too sensitive, you know.

Kwame Christian 43:13 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 43:13 "Hey, you're too sensitive. Why are you worrying about this? You always take things the hard way," you know. "Why do, why are you taking it that way? I didn't mean it like that." What do you do when someone s- tells you you're being too sensitive-

Kwame Christian 43:26 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 43:26 ... and how do you respond back to that?

Kwame Christian 43:28 Well, first of all, for the person saying, "Hey, you're being too sensitive," I just want them to know that's ineffective, [laughs] right? The person isn't like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm resilient now." That's just [laughs] ... That's not how it works, right? Now, if you're in that on the receiving side, I ... And I think this is something that is not done enough times because we're afraid of how it is perceived or we d- are afraid of not being able to save face. It's just saying, "I, I cannot have this conversation right now."

Codie Sanchez 43:55 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 43:55 "I can't have this conversation right now." Right? I think in, in relationships especially, we, our conversations are almost doomed from the start because when do we typically have our arguments with our spouse? It's, like, after 8:00, 9:00. You have decision fatigue. You're tired. You're grumpy. You had a lot of work to do. And so now you're saying, "You know what? I'm gonna have a really heavy, emotional conversation [laughs] and do it well." We're setting ourselves up for failure. So I think in those situations when that happens, just recognize. You can give yourself permission to take a pause. Even if it's five minutes, just say, "Hey, look, right now I, I cannot have this conversation. I know it's important. I can't. Just give me some time, and I'll come back to you." Right? And then maybe we negotiate when we have the conversation, not actually negotiate that thing. So I think giving yourself some time and space can help with that emotional regulation. I think another thing too, especially I've, I've coached people who are criers, and the thing about crying is that the more you try to stop crying, the more you cry, [laughs] right? And so when we have these behaviors, just you have to have a better story for it because people are gonna see it and then they're gonna put their own narrative on it. They're gonna f- frame it as weakness or fragility, whatever it happens to be. No, it's passion for me, whatever it happens to be for you, right? So before going into the conversation, you might just say, "Hey, listen, I want you to know that this is something I care deeply about, and when I care about something, I ... Sometimes tears come, and it ... I don't need any help. I'm okay. I can still have the conversation. I just want you to know where it's coming from." And so that helps you to manage your emotions because you're not fighting just, not just the emotion but also the feeling of judgment, but it also helps them to say, "Okay, they told me this is probably gonna happen. That's fine. I'm, I'm not as threatened by it."

Codie Sanchez 45:35 Right. Because I think oftentimes if the other person starts crying, let's say, I know this has happened to me previously, like, if I've had a friend that cries a lot.

Kwame Christian 45:44 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 45:44 And, and at some point, you know, if you're really good friends with them like I am with this person, you're like, "Ah," you know. I just stop. I just go, "Oh, no, you're crying," opt out.

Kwame Christian 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 45:54 But actually that's not very mature either-

Kwame Christian 45:56 Mm-hmm

Codie Sanchez 45:56 ... because then that means that I can never get across the thing that I need to say to them.

Kwame Christian 46:00 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 46:00 And so then resentment, resentment builds.

Kwame Christian 46:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 46:03 So your take would be when you start crying, you just let the person cry.

Kwame Christian 46:07 Yes, and, and, and, and also let them know that you're not judging them for crying because re- it, it just weighs on them. They don't like that they're crying.

Kwame Christian 46:15 They're trying to stop crying, which makes them cry more, and then they think that you're judging them too. Then it, it, it just kinda falls apart. So back when I was mediating, mediating, what I would do is I would give them the tissue, and they're like, "I'm so sorry for crying." I said, "Listen, in this situation it would honestly be odd if you weren't emotional."

Codie Sanchez 46:31 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 46:31 "So it is completely okay. Take the time that you need." And that helped them to calm down 'cause they knew they weren't being judged.

Codie Sanchez 46:37 You must have crazy stories from when you mediated.

Kwame Christian 46:39 Great stories.

Codie Sanchez 46:40 Is this ... So you were mediating divorces?

Kwame Christian 46:42 No.

Codie Sanchez 46:42 You were me- no.

Kwame Christian 46:43 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 46:43 What were you mediating?

Kwame Christian 46:44 I'm, I am not that bold.

Codie Sanchez 46:45 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 46:46 This was just, uh, court cases, so litigation, like, lots of business, landlord-tenant, that type of stuff. And, um, one of the things that was unique about the way that I mediated, and, um, I, I got this compliment from one of my colleagues too. She said, "Kwame, I've ... In my life, I have never heard anybody get people to laugh as much [laughs] as you do in mediations." And it can work really well, but laughter and humor in tough conversations only works If you are funny. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 47:17 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 47:17 If you're not funny, it makes-

Codie Sanchez 47:19 Don't do that

Kwame Christian 47:20 ... everything worse.

Codie Sanchez 47:20 Worse, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kwame Christian 47:21 Yeah. There you go.

Codie Sanchez 47:22 Crying while trying to fake laugh at somebody, that's a nightmare.

Kwame Christian 47:24 It's, oh, it's awful. It is awful. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 47:26 That's crazy. One of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is, like, in those, let's say you're mediating something, and mediate, uh, mediating, are you in the same room?

Kwame Christian 47:34 Ah.

Codie Sanchez 47:34 So, like, you're in the middle, and they're on both sides?

Kwame Christian 47:36 Great questions. No. 'Cause I-

Codie Sanchez 47:38 They're in different rooms

Kwame Christian 47:39 ... yeah, 'cause I found out, and this, this is kind of groundbreaking, when I put two people in a room that hate each other, bad things happen. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 47:45 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 47:46 You know? So what I would do is I would do shuttle diplomacy-

Codie Sanchez 47:49 Yeah

Kwame Christian 47:49 ... and I'd be the, the mouthpiece for both of them, but as we started to get closer to an agreement, then I would bring them together. But again, I would negotiate their behavior. Like, "Listen, don't do this. Don't do that. Let's get it together," because I know that once I leave, these two people are gonna have to coexist. They have a company to run. They have some kind of dispute that needs to be settled, and the relationship continues. So I want to get some positive momentum of them being able to communicate with each other respectfully even when I'm not there. So toward the end, that's when I'd bring them together.

Codie Sanchez 48:19 How do you manage when someone is speaking over you?

Kwame Christian 48:23 Hmm. [laughs] There are a few different ways, right? So first of all, we have to recognize emotionally, and not emotionally, personality wise, extroverts are more likely to do this.

Codie Sanchez 48:32 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 48:33 They probably don't even rec- recognize it's happening.

Codie Sanchez 48:35 Mm-hmm.

Kwame Christian 48:36 So bringing awareness is gonna be important, right? And I think just saying, "Hey, by the way, I wasn't done making my point when w- when you s- started speaking, so if going forward, if you could just let me finish, that'd be really helpful." Just a simple statement like that, right? And then, um, in those situations also, you probably don't feel heard as people are talk, talking over you, too. So when you recognize somebody is not listening, a simple thing you could do is just say, "Hey, listen. I feel like I'm having trouble getting my point across. Out of curiosity, what is it that you think my point is in this situation?" And just put it on them. And so what ends up happening is they can't explain it, [laughs] of course. Now, this is not when you dunk on them and say, "Ha, ha, you're a jerk. You weren't listening."

Codie Sanchez 49:17 [laughs]

Kwame Christian 49:17 You just say, "Hey, okay. I, I, my, my apologies. You

Kwame Christian 49:21 want to, you mind if I have another shot at explaining it to you?" And so in that situation they realize, "Oh, I thought I knew, but I don't know, so now is when I need to listen at this point." So there are a couple different things, but I think usually if somebody interrupts you, it might be a personality type of thing, and it might be a power dominance type of thing. Just expect it to keep on happening, and it will, it will start to diminish as you start to employ these techniques, but you have to make sure that you still have that resilience, and you don't get to the point where you're getting emotional because then you get thrown off your game, right? Because if you just recognize it's personality, then it, you don't take it as personally.

Codie Sanchez 49:57 Are you able to detach and just think about this as a game now?

Kwame Christian 50:02 Oh, yeah. So here's, here's the way I think about it. So for me, it's not as much of these conversations as tools to g- get what I want, even though I do [laughs] quite frequently. It's a game in terms of how calm can I stay in this conversation?

Codie Sanchez 50:17 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 50:17 How self-aware can I be? When the person said that thing, oh, I felt that flutter. I felt it. I caught it really fast. Where did that come from? Oh, okay, yeah. I, now I understand what that means about me. What does that emotion mean about me? So I treat these conversations as meditations. They're tools of self-awareness. So when somebody interrupts me, I say, "Okay. The, h- how did that make me feel?" When I'm not getting what I want, oh, that might be an indication that in this conversation I feel a little bit powerless. If, if they're not giving me that thing and I feel that flutter of fear, then I'm saying, "Oh, that's some f- weakness inside of me that I need to work on," in that moment. So it's not even about the outcome anymore. It's about learning more about myself through the process of these tough conversations.

Codie Sanchez 51:01 That's really useful. It all starts with your frame.

Kwame Christian 51:03 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 51:04 Now, you've, you know, helped Fortune 500 CEOs and really big deals go through.

Kwame Christian 51:10 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 51:10 What is, like, one brutal truth you wish you could tell every big-time deal maker, uh, that they probably don't already know or don't wanna hear?

Kwame Christian 51:19 Ooh, that they don't want to hear. In my time doing my own negotiations, consulting on these deals, learning from the best in the business with the podcast, we only need three core skills to be a great negotiator.

Codie Sanchez 51:31 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 51:32 After 1,600 episodes of the podcast, that was the disappointing reality 'cause I didn't want it either. I'm a, I'm a professor of this, right? [laughs] So I teach at the law school. I, I like to be really tactical. I love to go deep into the tactics and the strategies, right? But when I push the best negotiators in the world to tell me stories about their toughest negotiations, what do they fall back on? These three core skills: listening, asking questions, and managing emotions. That's it. And when you think about a tactic, all a tactic is is a combination of those three skills used at the right time, in the right moment, in the right way. That's it. And so a lotta times these are, these deal makers tend to become tactic hunters. "I wanna get the newest and best tactic," and everything like that. But at the end of the day, listen, ask questions, manage emotions, yours and the other side's, and just create an intentional connection with the other side. That is what wins the day the majority of the time, and I think people aren't willing to just put down their barriers and connect human to human, especially when the deal gets really, really important, and the numbers get really, really big. But if we remember that it just comes down to that human connection, that's the edge, then we can make these con- tough conversations a lot easier.

Codie Sanchez 52:44 Have you had Chris Voss on your podcast?

Kwame Christian 52:45 Yes, I did.

Codie Sanchez 52:46 Okay.

Kwame Christian 52:46 He was great.

Codie Sanchez 52:47 He's great.

Kwame Christian 52:47 He was great.

Codie Sanchez 52:47 So he's a buddy of mine, and I just went and saw his Broadway show, and it was so interesting because that through line was through all of it. He was talking about, you know, this, this guy that took a bunch of hostages in the Philippines and how he pulled him back from basically murdering these people and decapitating them and dropping their bodies everywhere, to at the end of the conversation saying to the negotiator, uh, "Well, I'd work with you again. Thank you for this," and, and-

Kwame Christian 53:11 Yeah

Codie Sanchez 53:11 ... letting them go.

Kwame Christian 53:12 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 53:12 And so, uh, and it wasn't some perfect little mind game that he played. It was, "Can I listen to them? Can I repe- repeat back what's happening to them? Can I stay calm?" That's so fascinating.

Kwame Christian 53:24 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 53:24 Okay, let's end with this Have you ever regretted leaning into a tough conversation?

Kwame Christian 53:29 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 53:30 You have?

Kwame Christian 53:30 Yeah, for sure. And it was for me running a company, being a leader, I, I, I didn't fully understand my role for a very long time, Codie-

Codie Sanchez 53:39 Hmm

Kwame Christian 53:39 ... because my identity was as a negotiator. But as a leader, I need to be a leader who happens to have negotiation skills, not a negotiator running a company.

Codie Sanchez 53:49 Hmm.

Kwame Christian 53:50 Here's why the distinction is so important, because as a negotiator, one of our mantras is separate the people from the problem. Separate the people from the problem. The person is not the problem. You can work with them to solve the problem. But for me, running a company, and I'm sure you've had to come to this conclusion yourself, too, sometimes you work really hard, you try to be collaborative, you provide feedback, and then you realize, oh, the problem isn't outside of the person [laughs] .

Codie Sanchez 54:15 Yeah.

Kwame Christian 54:15 The problem is the person in this very position right now. And I kept a lot of people on life support for way longer than I should have because I, I recognized that it was a little bit of that, that, those echoes of people pleasing from my past. I recognized it was a lot of ego and hubris saying, "No, they might have had trouble in the past, but I am so brilliant and persuasive [laughs] that I can persuade them into functionality." And, um, it, it caused, uh, way more harm than, than good. So that was something that was really, that I, I had to learn the hard way because sometimes after repeated

Kwame Christian 54:51 conversations and leaning into the conversations, the continued conversations in itself is the problem.

Codie Sanchez 54:57 That's very vulnerable to share because, you know, it, it's never fun letting somebody go.

Kwame Christian 55:03 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 55:03 And it's also never fun being the person, uh, letting go, and you're right. I think a lot of times it's like the, the thing women do. We're like, "I can fix him."

Kwame Christian 55:11 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 55:11 Be like, "Girl, no you can't."

Kwame Christian 55:12 [laughs] Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 55:12 "It's broken before. It's broken now. Get out of there." You know? And sometimes that's just okay.

Kwame Christian 55:17 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 55:17 Um, but it, it's a really good point, too. I mean, I remember one of my favorite, um, bosses when I was struggling with a person on my team that wasn't working, and, uh, and I remember him saying to me, um, "I just want you to go around and ask the leaders at this company, the ones that you respect, only the ones that you respect, um, how many times they have let somebody go that they thought they really needed to let go and move on to the next thing. Have they regretted it?"

Kwame Christian 55:45 Oh my.

Codie Sanchez 55:46 What do you think the answer is?

Kwame Christian 55:46 Yes. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 55:47 Zero. Kwame, I never get zero as an- Like zero is a crazy answer to have.

Kwame Christian 55:54 Wow.

Codie Sanchez 55:54 And now I play this game where I go around to events and, uh, and I always ask them two questions. One is if, um, somebody came up to you as a business owner and asked you to sell your business at the right price and the right terms on the right day, would you say yes? And obvi-

Kwame Christian 56:09 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 56:10 ... obviously that's 100% of people, like especially, and if they don't raise their hand, I always go, "You're too soon in your company. You haven't been doing this long enough."

Kwame Christian 56:16 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 56:17 But the second question is, you know, have you ever let go of somebody and regretted it? And the wild part is I, I've never had somebody raise their hand, and, and listen, that could be confirmation bias. Certainly there's many reasons why, but I think often we know, we know when we have to let go of somebody and we have tried, and I don't even mean firing. It could mean let go of a relationship, let go of a partnership, and so I think that's really, um, that's really humbling to share and, and not enough of us do that.

Kwame Christian 56:43 Yeah. Yes, we have to learn the hard way sometimes, Codie. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 56:47 Right. Um, what would you leave people with who are scared to death of having difficult conversations and do not think they can get better?

Kwame Christian 56:55 Everything's practice. Everything's practice. If we just assume, especially in our career, if we continue to improve and have higher level opportunities and responsibilities, then the conversation we have today in terms of gravity is gonna pale in comparison to the conversation we have next year. And so if you think about this conversation as an opportunity to build your skills and practice, then the thing that scares you the most should actually excite you because the, the more ridiculous they are, the more em- uh, uh, emotional they are, the tougher the conversation, it's like great. This is a good rep. I'm getting stronger for this. Even if I don't get what I want in this conversation, I will build my skills in a way that puts me in a better position for the future. So if you have this just continuous learning mentality and recognize that every conversation is just practice for the next one-

Codie Sanchez 57:43 Hmm

Kwame Christian 57:43 ... then it takes a little bit of pressure off of you and helps you to lean in in the tough ones.

Codie Sanchez 57:47 Love it. Yeah. Curiosity and practice. Better than a whiskey.

Kwame Christian 57:50 Exactly. [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 57:50 Kwame-

Kwame Christian 57:50 Thank you

Codie Sanchez 57:51 ... you're a man. Where should everyone go to follow you? This is so useful. I follow you on Instagram.

Kwame Christian 57:56 Thank you. Thank you.

Codie Sanchez 57:56 Um, but tell people the handle that you want them to follow you on and where.

Kwame Christian 57:59 Yes, so Instagram and TikTok, it's Kwame Negotiates, and then the podcast is Negotiate Anything, but I'll, I'll break some news here now. I'm actually gonna rebrand it to the Kwame Christian Show so I can talk about more topics, too. So-

Codie Sanchez 58:13 I like it.

Kwame Christian 58:14 Yeah. Thank you.

Codie Sanchez 58:14 After 1,600 you're like-

Kwame Christian 58:15 [laughs]

Codie Sanchez 58:15 ... "Well, there's only three, so I gotta add some more to the list."

Kwame Christian 58:18 Exactly. [laughs] Exactly.

Codie Sanchez 58:18 I love that. Kwame, thank you for being here.

Kwame Christian 58:20 Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. [outro music]