The Psychology of Cheaters (According To A Divorce Lawyer) | James Sexton

1. 0:00 – 1:33

   Introduction: The Sound of a Marriage About to End

   1. JSJames Sexton0:00

      You can't pretend you meant to get divorced. When you were walking down the aisle, you believed that this was gonna work out. There's something beautiful to be found in here. I think that can be an amazing thing. You don't have to wait to get divorced to do that.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez0:12

      My guest today is James Sexton, one of the world's most famous divorce attorneys who has seen more than a thousand marriages end, and he's gonna share exactly what the relationships do that last and what those do that fail.

   3. JSJames Sexton0:24

      Every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies, to look at the other and be able to say, "This person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am, and they're still my favorite person in the world."

   4. CSCodie Sanchez0:37

      There's a 70% failure rate. Does marriage still work?

   5. JSJames Sexton0:40

      The question people most often ask me is...

   6. CSCodie Sanchez0:46

      There's so many interesting ways to go with you. We've become buddies.

   7. JSJames Sexton0:49

      Yeah.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez0:50

      But I wanna start with just the basics. Right now, you're in a room, two people. How can you tell somebody is going to get divorced or not? What are the most telltale signs?

   9. JSJames Sexton1:02

      I mean, some of it is gonna obviously be the way that they relate to each other verbally. Like, how, how much they're listening to each other, how much they're talking past each other or over each other, how much grace they give each other. I've always said, like, to me, the, the s- sound of a, of a marriage that's about to end is, is like, it's, it's a very simple, subtle sound. It's this. It's, "What? Huh? Y- yeah, whatever." Like, it's a, it's a tone of voice more than a content.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez1:30

       Mm.

   11. JSJames Sexton1:30

       And the tone of voice says everything. It's like the

2. 1:33 – 4:46

   The What Huh Whatever: How Contempt Kills Connection

   1. JSJames Sexton1:33

      what? Like, "Why, why are you talking again?" Like, "What are you... What?" Like, like, it's the, it's the contempt. It's the opposite. If you think about it, it's the opposite of when we're dating.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez1:42

      Mm.

   3. JSJames Sexton1:42

      Like, when we're dating, we're interested and we're interesting, and we feel interesting and we feel interested, and there's this sense of, like, "Tell me about you. I wanna know, and let me tell you about me," and, like, there's this feeling of this exchange. And then, like, when we're together and it's falling apart, it's the total opposite of that. It's that sense of, like, "Ugh, what are you saying?" Like, and, and that to me is the sound of it. The feeling of it is a different thing, too. I mean, anybody who's ever been out with, like, a bunch of couples, and one of them you just, like, the vibe is just, did they get in a fight on the way over here or do they just hate each other? Like, what's going on? Like, and you can just kinda feel it in the way that they're interacting or not. Like, looking at their phones instead while the other one's talking. They- they're just not even, "What? Mm, yeah. What? Yeah. All right." You know, like, and that... It's a feeling. And I think, you know, again, like, I think studying the opposite is really the thing. Like, when we, we fall in love so fast-

   4. CSCodie Sanchez2:37

      Mm

   5. JSJames Sexton2:37

      ... and it's such a powerful emotion. It's so intoxicating. It's such a deep connection. And then we very slowly disconnect, and it happens slowly. And it, it's just one of those things that then you turn around and go, like, "How did we get here?" Like, "We never meant to get here. How did we get here?" Like, nobody ever wakes up and just goes, "Yeah, I think I'm gonna, like, really fuck my life up today," you know? "I'm just gonna really just take this fundamental, foundational relationship that I've invested a tremendous amount of my life capital in, and I'm just gonna let it go to shit." Like, I don't think anybody thinks that, and yet, you know, 50% or so of marriages end catastrophically, meaning they divorce. Another 10 to 20% either separate but never file for divorce, go out for milk and never come back, or they just sort of unhappily stay together and, and under surveys basically say, "Yeah, I, I kind of don't think this person adds any value to my life anymore." Which again, why would we sign up for something that fails roughly 60 to 70% of the time, or at least doesn't... It catastrophically fails close to 50% of the time and doesn't achieve the goal 70% of the time? And yet we do, over and over again.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez3:48

      So what if we, we think about the opposite of that? Like, the other day I was talking to my husband, Chris, you know well, and, um-

   7. JSJames Sexton3:54

      I love Chris.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez3:54

      I know. He's very lovable.

   9. JSJames Sexton3:55

      I, we have such a bromance going on.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez3:57

       [laughs] We do.

   11. JSJames Sexton3:57

       It's the jujitsu thing. It's like we just struggle cuddles.

   12. CSCodie Sanchez4:00

       [laughs]

   13. JSJames Sexton4:00

       You just immediately are bonded, you know?

   14. CSCodie Sanchez4:02

       Yeah. Jujitsu. Guys who like jujitsu and poetry are rare-

   15. JSJames Sexton4:05

       Yeah

   16. CSCodie Sanchez4:05

       ... it turns out.

   17. JSJames Sexton4:05

       You know-

   18. CSCodie Sanchez4:06

       But two are von

   19. JSJames Sexton4:06

       ... after we recorded our last conversation and, and Chris and I, it, I felt like we were in the movie Step Brothers.

   20. CSCodie Sanchez4:11

       [laughs]

   21. JSJames Sexton4:11

       You know? Like, it's like, dude, we just become best friends. Yup.

   22. CSCodie Sanchez4:13

       Yeah. [laughs]

   23. JSJames Sexton4:13

       You know? Like, it was just instant. And all of a sudden we're in these three-way texts with you, and you're just on the sidelines while he and I are bro-ing out.

   24. CSCodie Sanchez4:20

       [laughs] Sorry.

   25. JSJames Sexton4:20

       I feel really badly about that.

   26. CSCodie Sanchez4:22

       Well, I think it's great.

   27. JSJames Sexton4:22

       I really do. Yeah.

   28. CSCodie Sanchez4:22

       I have so much fun. You two are so hysterical.

   29. JSJames Sexton4:25

       Yeah.

   30. CSCodie Sanchez4:25

       But it's funny because the other night I told Chris, you know how in a marriage s- um, somebody will tell the same story 52 times?
3. 4:46 – 5:57

   The Story Retelling Test: When Your Partner Becomes Boring

   1. CSCodie Sanchez4:46

      'cause he basically said to me, he's like, "You know, I can tell when you are doing that thing where you're, like, trying to get me to move forward in a story." And I was like, "Oh-"

   2. JSJames Sexton4:53

      Really?

   3. CSCodie Sanchez4:53

      ... "fuck, you can tell that?"

   4. JSJames Sexton4:54

      Yeah.

   5. CSCodie Sanchez4:55

      And I was like, "That's a shame." Like, and I said to him, "I'm so sorry because I find you so interesting-"

   6. JSJames Sexton4:59

      Yeah

   7. CSCodie Sanchez5:00

      ... "and that story is actually really good." So when I reframe it, like, I love that you get to talk a bunch of din- at dinner.

   8. JSJames Sexton5:06

      Yeah.

   9. CSCodie Sanchez5:06

      I don't have to talk as much. And he, like, really liked the compliment.

   10. JSJames Sexton5:09

       Yeah.

   11. CSCodie Sanchez5:09

       He was like, "Well, thanks for..." I, because I probably hadn't said to him in a while-

   12. JSJames Sexton5:12

       Yeah

   13. CSCodie Sanchez5:12

       ... "You are so interesting."

   14. JSJames Sexton5:14

       Yeah.

   15. CSCodie Sanchez5:14

       "I love listening to you."

   16. JSJames Sexton5:16

       Yeah.

   17. CSCodie Sanchez5:16

       So I guess my question here is, like, what, how do you counter the whatever, I don't care?

   18. JSJames Sexton5:22

       Yeah.

   19. CSCodie Sanchez5:22

       So say you are a person who still wants to be in the marriage.

   20. JSJames Sexton5:25

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CSCodie Sanchez5:26

       And you're like, "I actually want my person to know that they-"

   22. JSJames Sexton5:29

       Yeah

   23. CSCodie Sanchez5:29

       ... "are interesting to me."

   24. JSJames Sexton5:31

       Yeah.

   25. CSCodie Sanchez5:31

       What do you do? How do you reengage a failing marriage?

   26. JSJames Sexton5:34

       I don't, I don't think it's actually that hard. I think you do the same things you do to screw it up. It's just you just move it in the other direction. Like, it, it, you know, the spiral of, like, apathy and disdain for each other is the exact same recipe as the spiral in the other direction of, like, reconnecting to each other.

   27. CSCodie Sanchez5:50

       Mm.

   28. JSJames Sexton5:50

       And that is, it's these little tiny things that you slightly reframe.

   29. CSCodie Sanchez5:55

       Mm.

   30. JSJames Sexton5:56

       You know? It, it, it's

4. 5:57 – 7:16

   The Spiral of Apathy: How Disconnection Happens Slowly Then All at Once

   1. JSJames Sexton5:57

      giving the other person just this little bit of grace. Like, I genuinely think that, that, that the easiest thing we can do is just Start treating our partner with love and attention and connection. And I think it's a, it's a 100% return on your investment because either you're going to reverse the spiral, so you're gonna give your partner more grace, more attention, more praise, more love, more affection than maybe you owe them, if we owe each other anything.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez6:27

      Hmm.

   3. JSJames Sexton6:28

      And either that's gonna inspire them to start doing the same and feeling good about you, this chicken or the egg thing, or you're gonna have done this for a while and you're not gonna get any return on that investment. And isn't it better to know? Isn't it better to know, like, wow, maybe this thing is really broken between us, and happily ever after might mean happily ever after separately. Like, I'm a believer in people splitting up when that's the right move for them. But I genuinely think that, that all you have to really do to reverse that spiral is to st- 'cause what does it take? Like, what does it take to just in the middle of the day send your girlfriend, wife a text that says, "You know, I had such fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world."

   4. CSCodie Sanchez7:14

      Hmm.

   5. JSJames Sexton7:15

      30 seconds

5. 7:16 – 10:15

   The Text Message Strategy: 30 Seconds That Could Save Your Marriage

   1. JSJames Sexton7:16

      costs nothing. What does it ta- it's the equivalent of sending flowers. Like, it's the equivalent. Like, to say, like, "I was just thinking of you and I just wanted you to know." Like, I j- "Oh, I walked past this person and they were wearing the perfume you used to wear when we first went out, and for a second I almost fell down." What a, like, beautiful thing to say. Who wouldn't wanna hear that? Who wouldn't want... And again, costs nothing, takes almost no time, and the ROI on that I think can be really, really profound.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez7:41

      Hmm.

   3. JSJames Sexton7:41

      And, and you know, if you don't mind me saying, because you gave yourself as an example, like, having hung out with you and Chris together as a couple, you know, when we went out to dinner, I remember thinking like, "Oh, what's this gonna be like?" 'Cause, like, you and I have such big personalities, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is gonna be... This is like everybody wants to be Beyoncé, nobody wants to be Destiny's Child here."

   4. CSCodie Sanchez7:59

      [laughs]

   5. JSJames Sexton7:59

      "This is gonna be crazy." And I thought, but, you know, Chris is so interesting and he's so accomplished and there's such a hell of a resume there, and, and I thought like, "What's this gonna look like? Is it gonna be like a competition? Like, who's gonna..." And he was so... He reminded me of a lot of my really lethal jujitsu buddies who are just so chill and just sort of like very... You and I were like da-da-da-da-da.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez8:20

      [laughs]

   7. JSJames Sexton8:21

      And he was like, you know, and even when I tried to make him the center of atten- like I wanted to-

   8. CSCodie Sanchez8:25

      Yeah

   9. JSJames Sexton8:25

      ... I was genuinely curious. Like, "Tell, tell me about the Naval Academy. Tell me about this." He was very quick to like bounce it back to you, and there was such a sense between... And again, it's like an energy thing, not to sound too, too woo woo about it. But it really was like you guys clearly like each other.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez8:41

       Yeah.

   11. JSJames Sexton8:42

       Like, you don't just love each other. It's lovely that you love each other. That's great. But like, you like each other. Like, you were sitting there kinda listening to each other's stories, laughing at each other's jokes, and there wasn't this sense at all of like taking the piss out of each other in a way-

   12. CSCodie Sanchez8:56

       No

   13. JSJames Sexton8:56

       ... that was in any way but like loving and sweet and affectionate. Like, no one would ever look and go, "Oh, these two, like, do not even like each other." Like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and connection. When you're with people that have that rhythm the right way, you realize it's, it's just those little tiny things. And-

   14. CSCodie Sanchez9:14

       Yeah

   15. JSJames Sexton9:14

       ... we all want, I, I know we all want like the big thing, the panacea, the cure, the like single thing. I don't think it's, it's like that. I think it's just these little choices we make every day. But again, like we have all these gadgets, these watches that bang and tell us when to drink water, and these gadgets in our pocket that tell us, you know, when to move or when... We can't just set a reminder. Somebody can't just make an app that just says, "Hey, three times a day, here's the random times to text your person and tell them that you're thinking of them, or send them a picture, or send them a nude." I don't know. Like, do some- like, like do something for them to let them know, "I see you. I like you. You're still my person. You know, you're still my favorite person." You know? That's the thing I've been on a lot about lately, is just the idea that this is your favorite person. Like, this is a pr- 8 billion people in the world, and this one. You picked this one and they picked you. Like, what a, what a beautiful thing to have found. So why wouldn't you value it and treat it with a l- little bit of everyday maintenance?

   16. CSCodie Sanchez10:14

       Yeah. You know, it, and

6. 10:15 – 11:50

   The Eight Billion People Problem: Why Your Partner Is Your Favorite Person

   1. CSCodie Sanchez10:15

      it's interesting because you've also talked before, and it was profound to me, and I can't remember if we actually did it live or when we were behind the scenes, but we all have that friend or group of friends that when we're with them as a couple, they are taking the piss out of each other-

   2. JSJames Sexton10:30

      Yeah

   3. CSCodie Sanchez10:30

      ... all the time. They're going back and forth, and for some reason they kinda think it's cool.

   4. JSJames Sexton10:34

      Yeah.

   5. CSCodie Sanchez10:34

      Like, you know?

   6. JSJames Sexton10:34

      Oh, yeah.

   7. CSCodie Sanchez10:35

      And, and they're like, "Oh, you know, da da da, I got him," or, "I got her"-

   8. JSJames Sexton10:38

      Yeah, yeah

   9. CSCodie Sanchez10:38

      ... or whatever, and they almost, it's performative. They want you to, like, be a part of it.

   10. JSJames Sexton10:40

       Well, it's like rewarded in the zeitgeist, too.

   11. CSCodie Sanchez10:43

       Right. So I guess what is the key indicator that like that's you? How, how do you see, how do you know that somebody is really unhappy in their marriage by the way they communicate in front of others? And what's a sign you're doing it in your marriage? You might be like, you might actually be killing your marriage by the way you talk to your spouse in front of other people.

   12. JSJames Sexton11:04

       Like, I'm actually really... I'm a lawyer, so all I care about is evidence. Like, I don't care what you know. What can you prove? Like, how am I gonna prove it? I love my kid. That's nice. What's the evidence to support that?

   13. CSCodie Sanchez11:15

       Hmm.

   14. JSJames Sexton11:16

       Okay, I'm gonna show that you go to every parent-teacher conference. I'm gonna show that you gave up this work opportunity that was really lucrative for you because you wanted to be home 'cause your kid had a school thing. Like, that's evidence.

   15. CSCodie Sanchez11:26

       Hmm.

   16. JSJames Sexton11:26

       That's all I'm caught up in, is what's the evidence? Okay, I love you. Cool. Love's a feeling and love's a verb. So what's the proof? Give me the evidence. What's the evidence that you love this person? 'Cause here's what I'll tell you. I'm looking at the ingredients I have at trial that I'm gonna put up on the witness stand.

   17. CSCodie Sanchez11:43

       Hmm.

   18. JSJames Sexton11:43

       And as far as I can tell, like if I cross-examined you about your love, I think I could take you apart.

   19. CSCodie Sanchez11:49

       Hmm.

   20. JSJames Sexton11:49

       Because

7. 11:50 – 15:24

   The Evidence Test: Cross-Examining Your Own Relationship

   1. JSJames Sexton11:50

      if you're saying you love this person, isn't it a fact that when this person came home last week and said X, Y, and Z, that you started, you know, making them feel small for the fact that they had that problem instead of just listening attentively? Isn't it a fact, sir, that you, you know... Like, so if I- If I cross-examined you about your relationship, could you stand up to that? Could you acknowledge where you got it wrong and where you maybe got it right? And by the way, why wouldn't we, as an exercise together, if we're in a relationship, why wouldn't we once a week, "Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved. Tell me three things I did this week that I, I coulda done better. Tell me three things I did this week that turned you on." Like, I would say something. I- that latter one, you would be surprised at the answer. Like, so many of those questions, like, you'd be surprised at the answer. I- I've spent so much time trying to get eight-pack abs, and I remember once in a relationship saying, "You know, what's, like, something I do that, like, turns you on?" And her going, "Oh, you know, when, when the dogs come in from the rain and you're, like, toweling them off."

   2. CSCodie Sanchez12:57

      [laughs]

   3. JSJames Sexton12:59

      I was like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" She's like, "I don't know, the way they look at you and you look at them, and, like, your ar- your tattooed strong arms are, like, toweling. I don't know, it's just super hot." And I'm like, "What? I would never have guessed that." Like, that's the last thing on the list. Like-

   4. CSCodie Sanchez13:15

      The dogs are wet every day somehow now. [laughs]

   5. JSJames Sexton13:17

      Yeah, like, what... Oh my God, yeah, just from then on I'm pouring water on them.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez13:19

      [laughs]

   7. JSJames Sexton13:20

      How did the dogs get so damn wet? But the truth is, like, if you really... Sometimes the things that we are doing that make our partner feel loved are so silly and so small.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez13:31

      Mm.

   9. JSJames Sexton13:31

      They're that you know that I take two sugars and not three. They're that you, you know, always make sure that, you know, I get this, or that you, you asked how my mom was doing last week when you... You know, after I talked to her. Like, what did that do? It made me feel loved. Like, and what's the goal? The goal is to, like, for you, the goal is to make Chris feel loved. Chris's goal should be to make you feel loved. 'Cause the goal of this game that there is no finish line for, and that none of us can win, because every marriage ends in death or divorce, the goal should be that when one of us dies, to look at the other and be able to say, "Hey, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am, and they're still my favorite person in the world." Like, and what better goal than that? Like, my, my son got married a, a few months ago, and I just remember thinking like, "That's just the goal." Like, the goal is, like, to get to the finish of this thing, 'cause everything ends, and just be able to say, "Yeah, you helped me become me, authentically me, and I, and I'm still, you're still my favorite person."

   10. CSCodie Sanchez14:37

       Such an interesting point, because today I feel like there's so many complications with social media. Like, and, and we feel like we have to do all of these things-

   11. JSJames Sexton14:46

       All the things

   12. CSCodie Sanchez14:46

       ... to be-- Yeah.

   13. JSJames Sexton14:47

       Yeah.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez14:47

       Because we see on social media everybody else being this perfect partner.

   15. JSJames Sexton14:51

       Sure.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez14:51

       And so I'm curious, like, is it actually better for us to post more or less about our relationship on social media? Is there a negative correlation between that and staying together?

   17. JSJames Sexton15:03

       Yeah, I mean, I guess what I'll say is I, I think it's useful insofar as it identifies our common humanity at its best. Like, at its best, the connection of social media, the mass audience of social media, makes all of us feel a little less alone.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez15:21

       Yeah.

   19. JSJames Sexton15:22

       Even when we're actually alone,

8. 15:24 – 18:06

   Social Media and the Performative Self: Hashtag Blessed While Negotiating Divorce

   1. JSJames Sexton15:24

      it makes us feel a little less alone. Like, "Oh, I'm not the only one experiencing that." The problem with it is so much of it is this performative self, and everyone is putting up their greatest hits, and we're all living our gag reel. And by the way, when are you on your phone? It's not when you're having, like, some wonderful peak moment. It's when you're, like, sitting on the couch feeling blah or on the toilet or whatever, and you're... It's not, like, in a great moment, so you're watching everyone's greatest moments while you're kind of in one of your less great moments. And I think it's natural for us to feel smaller then. I think comparison's always been the thief of joy, and it continues to be.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez15:56

      Mm. Mm. Mm.

   3. JSJames Sexton15:57

      But I also think that, you know, there is a way that we could be using social media to, to share the best parts of our partner. The problem is, is how people then perceive it. Like, are you flexing? Are you performing? Like, happy people are just busy being happy. They're not out there trying to convince everybody that they're happy. Like, who's that for? Like, I can't tell you how many people, you know, even celebrity clients of mine, that, you know, they're in my office actively negotiating a, a settlement of their divorce, and meanwhile they're, like, walking down the red carpet holding hands. They're doing interviews, hashtag blessed.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez16:35

      [laughs]

   5. JSJames Sexton16:35

      Like, you know, best husband ever. And meanwhile, they've been separated for the last eight months, and they're like, "Oh, he's on set." You know, it's like, no, he's, he's in an apartment with a different girlfriend in Malibu. Like, it's, it's the reality versus the curated performative self. And I get that we're all kinda doing... I mean, for actor clients, they're always acting anyway to some degree, so it's not that foreign for them to just play another role-

   6. CSCodie Sanchez16:57

      Sure

   7. JSJames Sexton16:57

      ... the role of the happy spouse. But it's unfortunate because it, you know, it's a very human thing to just watch what are other people doing. And, you know, people spent a lot of time trying to teach me the quadratic formula, like that was gonna be important. Like, I needed to know how to divide fractions. Like, they spent a lot... There were some nuns in Catholic school that thought this was essential that I know this.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez17:20

      [laughs]

   9. JSJames Sexton17:20

      Like, never used it in my whole life. But so many things about relationship, like someone coulda taught me. They coulda given me a manual. Like, this is too important to go unmanualed. Like, there should be a manual. There should be some basic thing about here's the care and feeding of connecting to another person in really basic ways, and I, I don't think that it's actually that hard. I think we just have to be humble enough to say, "This isn't as easy as it looks." And otherwise, what we do is we learn the way... Like, I think one of the reasons there's a synergy between our work and our writing is you're very

9. 18:06 – 22:38

   The Manual We Never Got: Why No One Teaches Us How to Love

   1. JSJames Sexton18:06

      kind of counterintuitive in some of your thinking. Like, okay, if everyone's doing this- ... maybe look at this.

   2. CSCodie Sanchez18:12

      Yeah

   3. JSJames Sexton18:12

      Like, and the more that people are trying to, like, say, "Oh, this is the wrong way," like maybe there's a contrarian way of viewing this. I think in relationships, it's, it's really the same thing.

   4. CSCodie Sanchez18:21

      Mm.

   5. JSJames Sexton18:21

      Like, we, we really could just... It could be pretty simple and boring, the answer.

   6. CSCodie Sanchez18:27

      Yeah.

   7. JSJames Sexton18:27

      Like, it may be boring is the answer. The answer is these little tiny habits of mine, these little tiny daily practices, these little weekly or so check-ins. It's not sexy. There's no course to take. There's no book to buy necessarily. I could fit it on an index card, but it's kinda simple, and we coulda taught it to people at a younger age.

   8. CSCodie Sanchez18:46

      Is that why you say that, you know, affairs or breakups don't happen fast, they happen slowly?

   9. JSJames Sexton18:54

      Well, they happen, I think they happen like bankruptcies happen, very slowly and then all at once. Like, I think it's very gradu- like falling feels like flying for a little while.

   10. CSCodie Sanchez19:03

       Oof.

   11. JSJames Sexton19:04

       You know? And then you hit the ground, and I think that there's this, this gradual feeling of, like, we fall in love so fast, we connect so fast, it's a ball of hormones, it's all kinds of exciting, and then we're... You know, and again, I don't blame people for this. Like, I think you, you know, there's so much to do mentally. Like, the mental load is a real thing. Like, there's so much going on, and you, for some period of time in your life, like, finding your person is the thing. Like, there's so much you do, like, so much you wear, so much you thi- To, y- where, how can I find my person? And then you find them, and you're like, "Oh, thank God," like one less thing. Like, now I can focus on the other stuff-

   12. CSCodie Sanchez19:45

       Right

   13. JSJames Sexton19:45

       ... 'cause there's so much other stuff. And now I, by the way, I can probably do that better because I got, like, somebody there. That's great, you know? But then you kind of forget that I wanted this so bad.

   14. CSCodie Sanchez19:57

       Yeah.

   15. JSJames Sexton19:57

       It was so important, you know? And it's easy to just let those other things come fully into focus. I mean, a baby's a great example of that. They require tremendous amounts of attention. They require tremendous amounts of emotional and physical bandwidth, and there's a part of you that kind of can forget, you know why this baby's here? 'Cause the two of us loved each other enough to rub our parts against each other.

   16. CSCodie Sanchez20:22

       [laughs]

   17. JSJames Sexton20:22

       Like, that's how this happened. So, like, why not try to keep in our line of sight, like, hey, you know, our love built this person. Like, and, and let's give each other the gift of, like, paying attention, 'cause again, I, I think it's all about just paying attention. I understand why our attention gets pulled to other things. I don't fault anybody for that. It's so human. Like, we, we need, we need to attend to other things, but very quickly we forget how important this was and is, and I think if we don't pay attention to it, it's very easily falls apart.

   18. CSCodie Sanchez20:57

       Quick aside, everything James talks about comes back to one thing, relationships that last aren't the ones built on wishful thinking. They're the ones where people actually do the work and get clear on the terms before things get hard. Same goes for a business. Hope won't grow a company. At some point, building takes real resources. So let me tell you about a new business lending product from SoFi. SoFi has a small business loan lending platform that is built for growth. You can apply without affecting your credit score, and if approved, get funding as soon as 24 hours later. Here's the part I really like, though, the pricing is clear and upfront, so you'll see your terms before you accept. No surprises, no penalties for paying your loan off early. It's built for solopreneurs and small businesses. If you're looking for capital to buy, build, or grow, head to sofi.com/codie or click the link in the show notes. Your business moves fast, your financing should too. SoFi small business loans are originated by SoFi Bank NA, subject to eligibility and approval. Terms and conditions apply. This is a paid SoFi partnership. How often is having a kid actually one of the impetuses for divorce?

   19. JSJames Sexton21:56

       I think it's an impetus for the disconnection that is the impetus for divorce. I, I, and I think for very valid reasons, which is a baby, A, requires a tremendous amount of your time and attention. You, you experience a love for this creature that is nothing like you've had before, and it's totally dependent on you. I mean, we emerge half-formed and hope whoever meets us on the other side is gonna, like, take care of us, and it's a beautiful, amazing thing. But for a little while, it's kind of exhausting and terrifying and stressful, and none of us really know exactly what we're doing, and we feel like we're doing it wrong for sure, 'cause whatever you do, somebody on the internet's gonna tell

10. 22:38 – 24:56

    Babies and Disconnection: The Crisis That Pulls Couples Apart

    1. JSJames Sexton22:38

       you should've done it differently and better, and you're doing it wrong, and the baby's gonna come out wrong as a result of it. It's all your fault. And it all feels like it's all on the line all the time. And this other person who wants you to be happy and loved and feel good is as terrified and frustrated as you are and sleep-deprived as you are, and it's like there's so much, and both of your... Everything's kind of off. And for a woman in the relationship, like, your body feels outta control, and like you, you know, you get out of the hospital, you're, like, four months pregnant.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez23:05

       [laughs] What the fuck?

    3. JSJames Sexton23:05

       Like, it's just not the same. And again, for the guy, it's like, "Hey, you know, like, I can't wait to have my wife back," and then, "Wait, what do you mean the boobs aren't for me right now? Who are they for? Like, that, I just met this kid. I don't like him that much to trade those. Like, that doesn't seem fair." But agai- and by the way, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be like, "What, now I gotta tend to you too? Like, can I handle, can I just handle this for a minute? Like, can everybody leave my boobs alone for a minute?" I get it, but the truth is, like, again, like, if we could just identify it first, like instead of getting caught up in what do we owe each other.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez23:40

       Mm.

    5. JSJames Sexton23:40

       Like, I don't owe you this, and you don't owe me. You're right, you don't. You don't owe anybody anything in that sense. Like, but don't you want to be connected to each other? Like, don't you want your partner to feel loved and seen? Like, you don't want... No one meant to be in my office. I mean, one of the reasons why I find my profession so humbling and fascinating is that, like, we're just all so full of shit so much of the time. Everything we do, we're like, "Well, I meant to do that. It was a learning experience." You can't pretend you meant to get divorced. You didn't. You can say, "Hey, it's good. It's the right thing." Okay, you can say that, but y- when you were walking down the aisle, you were not like, "Yeah, this is gonna go down in flames." Like, you believed that this was gonna work out, and then it didn't. And now what? You know, and now what? Like, I think you can own that. I think you can be like, "Yeah, the barn's burned down, and now I can see the moon." Like, there's something beautiful to be found in here. There's an opportunity for reinvention to be found here, to learn about what you do wrong in relationship and what you do right, and how to do it better next time. And I think that can be an amazing thing. But you don't have to wait to get divorced to do that.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez24:47

       Yeah.

    7. JSJames Sexton24:47

       Like, you, you can do that right now. Like, you don't have to wait. Like, when people have a crisis in their marriage, someone's parent

11. 24:56 – 27:29

    You Can't Pretend You Meant to Get Divorced: The Humility of Failure

    1. JSJames Sexton24:56

       is ill or dies, something horrible happens, there's this shared sense of, "Oh my God," like, "I gotta take care of this person. Are they okay?" Like, "My partner is, like, going down. Like, I need-- they need me." You don't have to wait. Y- the thing, pretend the thing happened. Like, every single day. Like, you don't have to wait till January 1st to change your life. You can change your life on a Tuesday in the middle of August. Doesn't matter. Like, and I think that's the thing we're, we're just lost the plot of, is we're, we're... Again, like, babies are amazing, and they're exhausting, and they can be both things. Spouses are amazing and exhausting, you know? And they're the greatest strength for you, and they're also kind of a drain sometimes. Like, things don't-- There's a reason why little kids really like professional wrestling. Because it's, like, really clear who the good guy is and really clear who the bad guy is, you know? And like, we love that. We love a world where it's just good guys and bad guys, and that's it, and you know who the bad guy is 'cause they're dressed a certain way, and the certain music comes on when they come out. And you know who the good guy is 'cause they're dressed a certain way, and this music comes out. That's not how it works. Like, the line of good and evil runs through the human heart, and none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. Like, we all contain foolishness and selfishness and weakness in us, and we all contain beauty and love and connection in us. And I think that if love is anything, it's the invitation to, like, try to help your partner every day see the best parts of themselves because you try to keep that in your own line of sight.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez26:34

       What do you think that women get wrong about what men want in a marriage or a relationship? What don't we understand that you guys want?

    3. JSJames Sexton26:42

       I mean, men and women get so much wrong about each other because we just, again... I, I've been thinking a lot about this in my own life because I'm 53, and I think it took me to, like, 52 or 53 to learn that when a woman says to me, "Do you know how hard it is to be a woman?" That they're not saying, "And it's easy to be a man."

    4. CSCodie Sanchez27:12

       Hmm.

    5. JSJames Sexton27:14

       Like, I, I don't know why in my heart, and in many people's hearts, when I say to you, "Do you know how hard it is to be a man sometimes?" Why your first reaction is to go, "I'm sorry, do

12. 27:29 – 30:10

    Men and Women Get Each Other Wrong: The Defensiveness Trap

    1. JSJames Sexton27:29

       your hormones fluctuate wildly every 28 days? Do you have to fit your feet in heels? Do people when you're working tell you you should be at home, and when you're home tell you you should be working?" Like, really? 'Cause it's so easy being... Whoa. What if I just said, "You know, it's really hard to be a man sometimes," and you went, "Really? Tell me about that. How? 'Cause I've never been a man. I don't know. I have a bunch of them in my life that I care about, so I'd really like to know. Like, what's that like? Tell me what, tell me what's hard about it." You know? And, and I only learned that, like, in the last couple of years. That, like, stop hearing it that way, and start hearing it as, "No, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I can try to imagine when you, when you describe it to me." Like, "Do you know what it's like to be objectified? Do you know what it's like to feel like you don't know if someone's taking you seriously? Do you know what it's like..." I, I don't know exactly what that's like. I've had examples in my life of circumstances where that happens, so I can, I can feel some empathy when you describe it to me. But the first step is for me not to hear it defensively.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez28:30

       So true.

    3. JSJames Sexton28:30

       And I think in relationship, that's a big, big piece of this. One of the things that women right now get really, really wrong, because the culture is jamming it down their throats, is that any time a man says anything about what's difficult for him, that it turns into a pissing match between the two of them of, "Do you know how hard I have it instead of you?" And there's-- it's just so dismissive and unnecessary. Like, we all have things we're grappling with, and if we love each other, we can hear that without it being defensive. I also think one of the mistakes I see a lot of women make in relationship is mistaking, like, s- saying, "Well, you should've talked to me about that," but not creating conditions where a person can feel safe talking about something.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez29:22

       Hmm.

    5. JSJames Sexton29:23

       Like, telling a woman something she doesn't want to hear is not something men are good at. We don't like it. It's not fun. Like, when you guys are ups- there's nothing more frightening to a heterosexual man than the sound of a woman you're dating saying, "What's wrong?" "Nothing." "No, no, it's definitely something. Like, what's the something?" "No, nothing. It's fine." Oh, my God, like, it's definitely bad. Like, what, what did I do? What did I s- is something go- is it me? Did something... I, I think creating conditions where we can have conversations with each other about, like, what's really going on here, and where we can disappoint each other a little. Like, where I can, I can tell you something you don't wanna hear. Like, I can't tell you how many women come in and their husband's cheating on them, and they say, like, "Well, you

13. 30:10 – 34:46

    Creating Safe Space: Why Men Don't Tell You What You Don't Want to Hear

    1. JSJames Sexton30:10

       know, it's, he's humiliated me. Like, if he'd just..." And, and, and I, I'll read the papers that they filed, and I'm like, they haven't had sex in seven years And she's like, "Well, you know, he never told me that the..." And you're like, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait wait. Like, you're, you're telling me if he had sat you down and said, "Listen, I feel like we're really physically disconnected, and I feel like my eye is starting to wander, and I don't wanna go down that road, but, like, we really need to reconnect somehow," that, that your response would've been, "Well, thank you for sharing that with me. It's hard for me to hear that, but I really appreciate that you're..."

    2. CSCodie Sanchez30:40

       [laughs] That's not-

    3. JSJames Sexton30:41

       No, the answer would've been, "Well, what the fuck do you want from me? Like, you're never home, and then when you get home, you're all kinds of stressed, and I'm supposed to just, like, show up in a negligee in those circumstances? Like, come on." Like, it turns into this defensive thing. And again, men are partly to blame for that because when you go like, "Well, how come we're not having sex anymore?" Like, wait, we're off to a bad start. Like, that's gonna bring out nothing but defensiveness. Whereas if you said, "You know, I drove past that restaurant that we went to. Remember that weekend when we first were dating and I drove, I drove past it and all I could think about was how, remember after that we went back to my apartment and we, like, didn't leave the bed for, like, a day and a half? That was, like, the best, man. Like, I just, I think about that day someti-" Now we're in. Now we're in. I'm, like, priming the pump now because now you're like, "Okay, come with me. Remember? Come with me. Remember how fun that was? Remember when we were so connected to each other? Remember how close we felt to each other?" And use that as the entry point to be like, "You know what? We should make time for that. Like, I, I'm sorry if I don't make time for that. Like, I, I love feeling that connected to you." Now we're having the same conversation, why, why haven't we been as physically connected, but instead of it being a criticism, it's about come with me to this place where we used to be together and, and somehow we're not there anymore, and that's your fault and my fault and everybody's fault and nobody's fault. I don't care. I don't care whose fault it is. I just wanna be there with you. I still think you're wonderful.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez32:03

       Why is that the natural state for relationships where we get so defensive with, like, our partner in a way that almost I don't think we get defensive when anybody else gives us feedback?

    5. JSJames Sexton32:13

       Yeah. Well, I think we feel, like, safe venting with our partner 'cause it's like, "No, you're here. You're stuck with me."

    6. CSCodie Sanchez32:19

       Yeah.

    7. JSJames Sexton32:20

       There's a sense of that. Like, marriage, you know, marriage is like a moat around a relationship. Like, a lot of people are like, "I'm gonna build this moat, and then it'll... Like, we'll have this ring, and that means we'll be together forever." It's like, no, it doesn't. Like, that's-

    8. CSCodie Sanchez32:33

       [laughs]

    9. JSJames Sexton32:33

       You know, I have a friend, Mark Delaney, who's a, a psychedelic, uh, facilitator, and, uh, he, he often says to me and it always makes me laugh, he's like, "Relax. Nothing's under control."

    10. CSCodie Sanchez32:42

        [laughs] Love it.

    11. JSJames Sexton32:43

        Like, "Relax. Nothing's under control."

    12. CSCodie Sanchez32:45

        That's a good one.

    13. JSJames Sexton32:46

        Like, and it's true. Like, I try to tell myself that all the time. I'm like, "Relax. Nothing's under control." Like, there's... Because marriage is a symbol. That's all it is, is a symbol.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez32:55

        Yeah.

    15. JSJames Sexton32:55

        Like, we've decided we're gonna create this legal connection or spiritual connection that's gonna symbolize this way of keeping the relationship safe. It's an illusion.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez33:05

        Mm.

    17. JSJames Sexton33:06

        It's not real. It's still worth s- symbols are worth something. Like, I think we live in a world of symbols. Like, I'm, I'm wearing one.

    18. CSCodie Sanchez33:13

        Mm.

    19. JSJames Sexton33:13

        Like, I, I could go to court and do a really good job cross-examining somebody in shorts and a T-shirt. It's just my brain. You don't need the rest of me. Like, the sh- the Ferragamo shoes don't do it. Like, it's... But why do I wear this? It's a symbol. I take this seriously. It's a symbol of I, I am wearing this 'cause I want you to know I take this interaction seriously. Well, that's all marriage is, is a symbol. You're just trying to create this symbol of our... But to then think that you've now really dug a successful moat around this thing and it's impervious to the slings and arrows that are coming at the relationship, you're kidding yourself.

    20. CSCodie Sanchez33:49

        That's so true.

    21. JSJames Sexton33:50

        If anything, it actually makes you maybe drop your defenses 'cause you're like, "Oh, no, we got the moat. We got this thing around it now. We're good. We're married." Be like, eh. No, it's not safe. The illusion that it's got a wall around it and a moat around it will make you forget that it's fragile. Love is not permanently gifted, it's loaned, you know? And, and maybe remind yourself regularly that there were eight billion options and you picked this person and they picked you, so why not protect that thing?

    22. CSCodie Sanchez34:22

        Yeah, the symbol's so true. I mean, I do think about why I take, you know, Kim Kardashian so seriously on her show is the outfits. I think it's mostly-

    23. JSJames Sexton34:31

        That's exactly right

    24. CSCodie Sanchez34:32

        ... you know? [laughs]

    25. JSJames Sexton34:33

        You could literally never let me live that down. Every, the mi-

    26. CSCodie Sanchez34:36

        Yes. [laughs]

    27. JSJames Sexton34:37

        You know, the minute that show got renewed, you texted me that day.

    28. CSCodie Sanchez34:41

        [laughs] 'Cause it's-

    29. JSJames Sexton34:43

        That day

    30. CSCodie Sanchez34:43

        ... I love it. It's so campy and amazing,

14. 34:46 – 36:59

    Love Is Not Permanently Gifted, It's Loaned: The Fragility of Connection

    1. CSCodie Sanchez34:46

       and every time the outfit shows, like, a thong, I just, I put your face on the outfit.

    2. JSJames Sexton34:50

       It's really incredible.

    3. CSCodie Sanchez34:51

       And I just-

    4. JSJames Sexton34:51

       Yeah, that is-

    5. CSCodie Sanchez34:52

       ... find such joy

    6. JSJames Sexton34:53

       ... I am so glad that it gives you this level of joy, I have to say. I take joy in how much joy it gives you, I really do.

    7. CSCodie Sanchez34:59

       [laughs]

    8. JSJames Sexton35:00

       Because you're torturing me.

    9. CSCodie Sanchez35:01

       I know. [laughs]

    10. JSJames Sexton35:02

        You're torturing me. I'm in my office not wearing a thong.

    11. CSCodie Sanchez35:05

        [laughs]

    12. JSJames Sexton35:06

        And, like, I'm in my office-

    13. CSCodie Sanchez35:08

        No

    14. JSJames Sexton35:08

        ... that's not shaped like a vulva with windows.

    15. CSCodie Sanchez35:10

        [laughs]

    16. JSJames Sexton35:11

        Like, the, every office in that show-

    17. CSCodie Sanchez35:14

        Is a vulva

    18. JSJames Sexton35:14

        ... is incredible. It's like a German architect's-

    19. CSCodie Sanchez35:16

        It is actually

    20. JSJames Sexton35:17

        ... dream. And instead we're, like, in these sterile buildings and conference rooms-

    21. CSCodie Sanchez35:21

        With fluorescent lights

    22. JSJames Sexton35:21

        ... with a bunch of du- yeah, fluorescent lights and a bunch of, like, short, balding dudes.

    23. CSCodie Sanchez35:25

        No Kardashian in sight.

    24. JSJames Sexton35:25

        And none of us are like, "I'm having sex with your clients."

    25. CSCodie Sanchez35:28

        [laughs]

    26. JSJames Sexton35:29

        Like, well, so am I. You know? Like, it, it's none of that. Like, that's-

    27. CSCodie Sanchez35:32

        That's so depressing

    28. JSJames Sexton35:32

        ... I watch that show and I'm like, "This job is so exciting. I think I wanna be a divorce lawyer when I grow up." Like, I feel like the interns are coming in for the summer now and they're like-

    29. CSCodie Sanchez35:42

        [laughs]

    30. JSJames Sexton35:43

        ... "Why isn't everybody having sex at the conference room table? Like, this is... You guys suck. I thought you were, like, a cool firm," you know? Like...
15. 36:59 – 39:56

    Cheating and Infidelity: The 70 Percent Reality

    1. JSJames Sexton36:59

       been around. I mean, if you think about it, like, if you believe that God gave us 10 rules, you know, two of them were, "Don't commit adultery. Don't covet your neighbor's wife. Don't commit adultery." "Thou shall not kill" got one.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez37:11

       [laughs]

    3. JSJames Sexton37:12

       Like, he just had to say that once. But, like, "Don't commit adultery. Seriously, don't covet your neighbor's wife, dude." Like, God felt he had to repeat himself on that one. That's ... Whether you believe that that was, like, divine providence or not, it'll tell you the problem's been around a while, you know? If it was carved in stone somewhere, it's been around a while, whoever invented it. So we've been dealing with this for a while, but we also do not give people the grace of like, yeah, this person made a mistake. This per- Like, I, I've represented a lot of people that cheated. None of them ever woke up and said, "You know, I think I'm gonna fuck my whole life up today. I think I'm gonna completely ruin it, damage my partner and their trust in me and their trust in anyone forever, and also probably cause some collateral damage with this other person who I'm gonna have this triangulated relationship with. I think that's gonna be a good use of time today." Like, usually it's just this small progression of kind of poor decisions, things you probably knew you shouldn't do. And again, like, I don't fault people for that. Like, I give people some grace for that, 'cause I'll tell you something. Like, it's a bad metaphor, but, like, if there's potato chips in my house, I'm eating them.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez38:19

       [laughs]

    5. JSJames Sexton38:20

       Like, I'm eating them. Like, that's why I don't buy potato chips, 'cause I can control my food environment better than I can control my brain. I don't trust my brain. Like, and I don't trust my stomach. But, like, I trust the fact that when I'm in the store, I don't have to buy potato chips, so I don't buy them. Or if I buy them, I go, "Okay, I'm gonna eat them." Like, you hang out at the barbershop long enough, you're getting a haircut. Like, if I'm talking to a bunch of beautiful women on a regular basis, I'm gonna wanna have sex with one or more of them. That's how it works. So if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship, don't do it. Don't give yourself that occasion to do that. Like, like, make a point of protecting that and not doing it. The thing that's interesting to me, and I've, I've, I've, I've talked about before and I talk about in my book, is the question when people are confronted about adultery. Because the man's first question is, "Did you have sex with him?" And the woman's first question is, "Do you love her?"

    6. CSCodie Sanchez39:17

       Hmm.

    7. JSJames Sexton39:17

       And that tells me something about how men and women perceive relationships slightly differently. Now, again, not every man, not every woman, but as a general category. I, I think women, a lot of it is about, is this person now in a higher priority than me? Do you have a deeper connection, affection, desire for, you know, protective instinct toward? Like, are they more important than me? Because there's something about, like, being so important to someone. And for men, there's this sense of like, "This woman is my woman.

16. 39:56 – 42:35

    Did You Have Sex With Him: How Men and Women Experience Betrayal Differently

    1. JSJames Sexton39:56

       She's my," you know, I don't wanna say property, "but she's mine. Like, she's mine, and I don't want anyone else to be able to lay claim to her, to her body. It's just mine. It's just for me," you know? And by the way, a lot of women, I think, would find that very appealing for a man to say like, "Yeah," like, "You're mine." Like, "I want you to be mine. I don't..." Like, I've had lots of problems in relationships 'cause I'm not a very jealous person. And more than once, a woman has been like, like, "Don't you care about me?" And it's like, "Well, of course. I'm just not insecure." Like, I... You can be flirtatious with people as long as you come back to me. Like, I don't-

    2. CSCodie Sanchez40:30

       Yeah

    3. JSJames Sexton40:30

       ... you know, as long as we have lines that we're not gonna cross. Like, if you wanna go out with your girlfriends and dance and flirt and stuff, like, it, I don't care. Like, it doesn't... I'm not insecure. It doesn't bother me. If it, if the only thing that's keeping you from running off with other men is that you're not proximate to other men, we're in trouble. Like, I'm a fan of monogamy, a model of monogamy where I have sex with as many people as I want, which is one. Just one. 'Cause, like, when I'm full, I don't wanna eat anymore. Like, when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. So if you're in a relationship and you're satisfied, great. Like, monogamy for me and, and all this idea of cheating is, is the idea that you're not gonna cheat 'cause that's the rule we've agreed to, 'cause that seems really stupid. Like, if Chris came home and he was like, "Listen, I just want you to know, like, there's a bunch of women I really wanted to have sex with today, but I didn't have sex with any of them. I totally stayed with the rules." Like, what do you want, a cookie? Like, okay. Like, how am I supposed to feel better about that? Like, whereas if it, you know, like, if it, if it was, "Yeah, like, I'm, I'm happy. I got you. What do I want more? I got you. I don't need anything more than that." Like, that's what monogamy's supposed to be. So when does it become no longer our responsibility if we're gonna be in a relationship to make sure that our partner feels physically connected to us? I think we owe it to our partner. Like, if you're ... I've always said in relationship, like, if you're gonna rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez41:56

       Oh.

    5. JSJames Sexton41:56

       If I'm gonna trade having sex with lots of women for having sex with you regularly, then that's the deal. Like, that's the economy that we've agreed to, and I think that's very fair, and I'm asking you to do the same thing. So I have, I owe it to you to try to satisfy you. You owe it to me to try to satisfy me, 'cause we don't have to do this thing. We don't have to have that rule. We can say, "Okay, we're gonna sleep with other people." But if we're gonna have this thing, why, why don't we just call out that economy and say, "Hey, let's make sure that we're protecting these values"?

    6. CSCodie Sanchez42:31

       James has this incredible line About how a good lawyer knows the law and a great

17. 42:35 – 47:32

    The Economy of Monogamy: What We Owe Each Other in a Committed Relationship

    1. CSCodie Sanchez42:35

       lawyer knows the judge. Business works the exact same way. There's like a game underneath the game that the pros play every day and other people don't even realize they're playing it. Actually, my new book, Owner Be Owned... Well, this is it right here. Isn't it cute? This is the manual for scaling your business towards more profit and less pain. I spent 15 years inside the biggest companies on Wall Street, watching private equity buy good businesses for pennies and great businesses for billions. You wanna know what separates them? Great businesses use these systems, the systems that run businesses so good the owner can grow alongside the business as opposed to getting owned by it. It's the exact operating system I use across the businesses that make up multiple nine figures, the same ones I teach to thousands of owners in our contrarian boardroom, but it costs them tens of thousands of dollars a year. Owner Be Owned is for you, and we are going to do so many giveaways live, you're not gonna be able to handle it, on September 18th with a free live event. Every attendee is gonna get something that I wish I got 10 years ago. It would've made me way more money. So scan the link in the QR or click the description. Let's get back to my conversation with James Sexton. What percentage of divorces have, uh, you know, affairs or non-monogamy?

    2. JSJames Sexton43:48

       I mean, massive number. A massive... I would-

    3. CSCodie Sanchez43:51

       Like every one?

    4. JSJames Sexton43:51

       I, I would be speculating 'cause it's hard to measure those things. I would say close to 70 to 80%.

    5. CSCodie Sanchez43:58

       Wow.

    6. JSJames Sexton43:58

       Where there's some-- where infidelity played some part in some degree. Like how many is, "I've fallen in love with another person and I'm leaving you"? That's a smaller percentage, although still shockingly high. Um, but there's a lot of like, "Yeah, he cheated and I took him back," or, "She cheated and I took her back and then, you know, she still betrayed me in this way or that way." There's a lot of, "Yeah, they were flirting with this person," or... Like a lot of times... And again, I, I tend to think that I look at the infidelity, the financial impropriety, the dishonesty all as the, the symptoms of the underlying illness, and the illness is the disconnection.

    7. CSCodie Sanchez44:37

       Yeah, the lack of attention.

    8. JSJames Sexton44:38

       The lack of attention, the lack of connection.

    9. CSCodie Sanchez44:40

       Yeah.

    10. JSJames Sexton44:41

        The... You know, the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. Like we lie to our partners all the time, but it's mostly 'cause we're lying to ourselves. Like we're, we're busy thinking about who we wish we were-

    11. CSCodie Sanchez44:55

        Mm

    12. JSJames Sexton44:55

        ... and not looking at who we actually are.

    13. CSCodie Sanchez44:58

        Mm.

    14. JSJames Sexton44:58

        You know? And we're relating to the world and our partner like, "This is who I want to be, not who I actually am," you know? And I, I had a, some years ago, my, one of my sons, my younger son, he's 26 now, but he was in his early 20s at the time, and we were having a very difficult moment in our relationship as father and son, and he was, he was venting to me about the things I w- I w- I had gotten wrong. Like as... You know, and I, I wanted to create space for that, and he was like, "You know, you, you're so occupied with work all the time and you were never here for this." And, and I like really listened to what he had to say, you know? I, I, and I wanted to hear it. Like I wanted to hear it and absorb it and not be defensive. But about halfway through this sort of venting, I, I said, "You know, Bill, who are you comparing me to?"

    15. CSCodie Sanchez45:48

        Mm.

    16. JSJames Sexton45:49

        "Like are you comparing me to your imaginary perfect father? Because here's what I'll say. You're allowed to do that, but then I'm gonna compare you to my imaginary perfect son, and you suck."

    17. CSCodie Sanchez46:02

        [laughs]

    18. JSJames Sexton46:03

        "Like he's a black belt in Brazilian jujitsu. He is so cool. We have so much fun, he and I. He's like finishing law school or med school right now, but he's like not stuck up about it, and he's got the same taste in music as me and we go to like concerts together sometimes. And like every Father's Day, he like posts some pictures of he and I, and he's like, 'Best dad ever.' Like it-- You suck compared to him. You're like awful compared to him. Like but, but by the way, I love you like so much, like so much it, it hurts. It's like looking at the sun how much I love you. Like I can't... Once I look away, it's like I, I love you that much. Just you the way you actually are, not my, as you compare to my imaginary son. Like so could we..." And I said to him like, "If you don't learn this in our relationship, just learn it. Because if you compare a woman in your life someday, if you compare your wife someday to your imaginary perfect wife, she is gonna disappoint the shit out of you. So compare people to real people. Compare... Or, or learn how to like meet someone where they're at because that's how you want to be loved. Like if you want me to love you for who you are, not who I ima- com- as compared to this imaginary perfect ideal, you have to be prepared to give me that same grace." And I think that's the part in relationship, like the algorithm has taken away our proclivity towards doing that. It has, in fact, encouraged the opposite. Enragement engagement, this boys versus girls bullshit

18. 47:32 – 59:19

    The Imaginary Perfect Partner: Comparing Real People to Fantasy

    1. JSJames Sexton47:32

       that's out there that everyone has now picked up is like the greatest grift ever. Pander, pander, pander. All these men being like, "Guys, let me tell you something. If a woman feels defensive around you, it's 'cause you're the one who's attacking." And all the women are like, "Yes, he's so right." And like it's everybody's just pandering to the algorithm. They want the traction. They want the engagement. Instead of like being honest with the somewhat complex truth which is that, look, women get it wrong, men get it wrong. There's stuff women are dealing with that men aren't. There's stuff men's dealing with that women aren't. There's stuff we're both dealing with, like man or woman, you know? Like there's so much going on that, again, like if we just stopped with this ridiculous combative approach that love is a zero-sum game. Like listen, a world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving, and a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. We are in this together, guys. This is a knife fight in a closet. Like do you think that just stabbing is the answer? I promise you it's not. Are you happy? Do you feel better? Does-- do your friends seem happier in their relationships or does everyone seem like they're just spiraling down into, yeah We all just hate the other side, the boys versus girls. Like, instead of just, like, acknowledging how, how different some things are for us, but how much we love each other, sometimes inexplicably for the dumbest things, you know? Like, and it's just lovely to be loved like that and to feel that love for another person. Like, I just feel like we, we could do so much better at that.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez49:08

       Well, it's funny because I remember I was texting you about one of our, uh, reels we did.

    3. JSJames Sexton49:14

       Yeah.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez49:14

       And it was about what do men really want and what do women really want, and the TLDR was like, "Men want the nudes, women want the flowers." And there was a lot more context and tongue-

    5. JSJames Sexton49:22

       Yeah, of course

    6. CSCodie Sanchez49:22

       ... in-cheek about it, but people in the comments were crazy.

    7. JSJames Sexton49:25

       So mad.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez49:25

       They were like so mad at you.

    9. JSJames Sexton49:27

       So mad. Yeah.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez49:28

        They're like, "How dare you say that-

    11. JSJames Sexton49:29

        Yeah

    12. CSCodie Sanchez49:29

        ... men love the female body?"

    13. JSJames Sexton49:31

        Yeah.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez49:31

        No man should ever want that 'cause we're gonna-

    15. JSJames Sexton49:33

        Totally.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez49:33

        That, that means he's gonna post you on every public profile, and you monster, right?

    17. JSJames Sexton49:37

        Right. Right.

    18. CSCodie Sanchez49:38

        And then, you know, then of course the other women were like, "I hate fucking flowers." And we were like, whoa. [laughs]

    19. JSJames Sexton49:43

        Right.

    20. CSCodie Sanchez49:43

        Like-

    21. JSJames Sexton49:43

        Right

    22. CSCodie Sanchez49:43

        ... can everybody calm down for a second?

    23. JSJames Sexton49:45

        Yeah. But I really do think a lot of people wake up just looking to get offended now, and they get right on there, like, looking to get offended. And I get it.

    24. CSCodie Sanchez49:52

        Do you have the audio on?

    25. JSJames Sexton49:52

        Like, I, I get it, man. I post in ghost. Like, I, I try not to engage it.

    26. CSCodie Sanchez49:56

        That's smart.

    27. JSJames Sexton49:56

        'Cause when I do engage it, like, I try to engage it the way I would engage cross-examination, which is, like, it's, it's... You know, you're gonna argue with me? I get paid $1,000 an hour to argue.

    28. CSCodie Sanchez50:05

        No, I would never argue with you.

    29. JSJames Sexton50:05

        Like, it's a bad fucking idea.

    30. CSCodie Sanchez50:07

        Oh.
19. 59:19 – 1:03:46

    The Shaving Story: How You Ask the Question Dictates the Answer

    1. JSJames Sexton59:19

       so sexy about you." Like, and I think there's value in that.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez59:22

       So what is the framework there? So, like, let's say you wanna... You're in the courtroom.

    3. JSJames Sexton59:25

       Mm.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez59:25

       You're trying to get somebody to do what you want them to do.

    5. JSJames Sexton59:28

       Yeah.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez59:28

       Is this priming? Like, what are the things you need to do?

    7. JSJames Sexton59:31

       Yeah, the best, the best cross-examination, like, people watch Law & Order and movies like A Few Good Men and they think that cross-examination is like, "Isn't it true that you're a terrible husband?" And they're like, "It's true. You're right. I ga-," you know, like, "I did it. I ordered the code red." Like, this is like a Perry Mason moment. It's not what good cross-examination looks like. Good cross-examination at the highest level is getting a person to commit to a set of principles that they think supports their argument and then snapping their neck with that.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:00:02

       Mm.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:00:03

       So you get them to commit to, "Now, sir, one of the reasons why you want custody of your son is that it's important for you to be there for him, isn't that right?" "Yes." "In fact, you don't just wanna be there on the weekends, you wanna be there during the week 'cause the heavy lifting of parenting's a really important part, isn't it?" "Yes." "And in fact, if somebody just wants to do the fun part of parenting, they really have no business claiming that they're a real parent, isn't that right?" Now, what can you say but yes? "Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you missed the last six parent-teacher conferences for your child?" Like, "I- Isn't it a fact, sir, that on Wednesday nights you participate in this basketball league instead of going to your son's b-" Now, again, I had you commit to principles, principles you thought were supportive of your argument, and by the way, if you disagreed with them, I can weaponize that against you, too.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:00:51

        Mm.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:00:52

        So again, what is a good cross-examination? It's getting... It's just like in relationship. What... Commit to the principle.

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:00

        Mm-hmm

    13. JSJames Sexton1:01:00

        Isn't it a fact that I'm an important person in your life? Yes. Isn't it a fact that I'm as important as your golf game? Yes. And yet, sir, isn't it true that the last three weekends you spent more time playing golf than talking to me? You know, like, isn't it, isn't it a fact that I am more important to you than Instagram? Well, yes. Okay. So then how much of your bandwidth on your phone was spent on Instagram versus messaging or talking to me?

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:27

        Mm.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:01:27

        Like, again, evidence, evidence, evidence. Like, it doesn't matter what I know, it matters what I can prove. If you cross-examined your relationship, yourself about your relationship, what principles would I commit you to, and then how would I snap your neck?

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:44

        Mm. How do you counter that leading line of questioning with the one-word response? It's so good.

    17. JSJames Sexton1:01:53

        Yeah.

    18. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:53

        Like, what if you don't wanna answer in one-word responses?

    19. JSJames Sexton1:01:55

        Well, that's the beauty of cross-examination.

    20. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:57

        They have to.

    21. JSJames Sexton1:01:57

        It's not a fair fight. They have to.

    22. CSCodie Sanchez1:01:59

        Yeah. Interesting.

    23. JSJames Sexton1:01:59

        I move to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive.

    24. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:02

        Oh, man.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:02:03

        The people all the time go, "Well, I... Well, yes, but I wanted da-da-da." Move to strike the portion of the answer that's non-responsive. Like, you just keep-

    26. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:09

        Can I use that in argument?

    27. JSJames Sexton1:02:10

        "Yes or no, isn't it a fact that you blah, blah?" And I can then make you look foolish and evasive if, you know-

    28. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:18

        Right

    29. JSJames Sexton1:02:18

        ... Isn't it a fact, ma'am, that you went to the pool that day? Well, yes, but I da-da-da. So yes? Yes. Thank you. Now I'm gonna ask you a number of questions that are gonna be yes or no questions, if you could answer them accordingly. You know, like, and you just pin the person down. Now, the thing that good lawyers do is I am as interested in the other side's case against my client as I am in my case against their client.

    30. CSCodie Sanchez1:02:44

        Hmm.
20. 1:03:46 – 1:06:13

    The Eight Mile Strategy: Owning Your Weaknesses Before They're Used Against You

    1. JSJames Sexton1:03:46

       I think... "Did you write that to her?" Yes. "You think that was a good thing to do?" No. "Do you think that helped your co-parenting relationship?" No. "What effect do you think that had on her?" It probably really upset her. "Why did you do it?"

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:04:03

       Hmm.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:04:04

       She had sent me 30 text messages in the last two days where she just cursed me a million times, and finally I just lost it, and I just sent her this nasty text message. "If you had it to do over again, would you send that text message?" You know, I'd like to say that I wouldn't, but the truth is I'm human and I have a breaking point, and she had pushed me to it at that point, and I did something stupid and I sent something as low as the 50 messages she sent me before. Boom.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:04:33

       Good.

    5. JSJames Sexton1:04:33

       I just... And I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out pages of the cross-examination they thought they were gonna light my guy up with, and it's gone. I just took all away. I took all your ammo away. Now what?

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:04:47

       Hmm.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:04:47

       Now what? What do you have? You got nothing. I got out in front of it. I made a weakness into my client being so candid and honest and about his humanity and about his breaking point. I just turned your prize-winning testimony into my client talking about the 50 mean messages your client sent. You know, so that's, that's what good... Like, that's why I love my job even after 25 years of doing it, is that it's full contact storytelling. Like, I'm trying to tell a story while you try to stop me from telling that story and tell a different story, and it's the most fun job in the world for that reason.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:05:20

       What do you think the biggest mistake people make is when they're trying to persuade someone of something?

    9. JSJames Sexton1:05:26

       Well, you know, we were talking about it before we, uh, we sat down, that there's nothing less cool than trying to be cool.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:05:32

        Yeah.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:05:33

        And there's nothing worse than a salesman that you know is trying to sell you something. Like, the best salesperson, you just have a problem and they want to help solve it.

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:05:42

        Yeah.

    13. JSJames Sexton1:05:42

        Like, that's it. Like, and it's the same, the worst persuasion is blatantly obvious persuasion.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:05:47

        Hmm.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:05:47

        Like, it really... Like, the best advocacy does not look like advocacy.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:05:51

        Hmm.

    17. JSJames Sexton1:05:51

        It's just me going, "You know, Your Honor, I don't know. I'm not a ju- Listen, this guy walked into my office, hired me. If his wife had come in 15 minutes earlier, I'd probably be arguing the opposite of things. But you know what it seems to me, looking at these two, that..." And now guess what? I'm advocating. It just doesn't sound like it.

    18. CSCodie Sanchez1:06:05

        Hmm.

    19. JSJames Sexton1:06:05

        Like, it just doesn't look like it 'cause it's not so obvious. Like, I- it's hilarious 'cause when I litigate against, like, s- you know, like, like, new

21. 1:06:13 – 1:10:57

    The Persuasion Principle: Great Advocacy Doesn't Look Like Advocacy

    1. JSJames Sexton1:06:13

       lawyers or, like, rep- self-represented parties, 'cause now with AI everybody thinks they're a fucking lawyer, and, and they're sitting there like, "Heretofore, herein," I'm like, you're trying to sound so much like a lawyer, you don't sound a damn thing like a lawyer right now.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:06:26

       So true.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:06:26

       Like, but... And look, I get it. Like, when I was a young lawyer, I remember I, it was one of my first big, big cases. Like, I was probably five years into my practice. It was, like, first case where there was, like, a million dollar marital estate or more. And I remember my adversary was a very experienced high net worth divorce lawyer, and I was like this, like, I, you know, I'd never done a case this big. And so I'd studied, like, all of their marital assets and how it worked and da-da-da. The judge brings us into chambers and, you know, it's off the record. It's just the two lawyers and the judge. And I was like, "Well, Your Honor, uh, the parties here have a fairly diverse asset profile that's somewhat complex in nature. They have an array of this," and, uh, obviously that I'm, I'm trying to, like, sound very learned. And I'm looking at my adversary who's clearly had, you know, 100 cases with this kind of thing. And we finish, and I finish my little speech, and she looks over at my adversary and, and he goes Yeah, I, I don't understand their finances at all. It's, like, really complicated from what I can tell. We're just gonna probably need accountants to explain it to us 'cause I'm not an accountant. And I was like, "Oh, shit."

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:07:28

       [laughs]

    5. JSJames Sexton1:07:28

       Like, that, like, that was so much better. Like, that was so much better. Like, he... And by the way, he totally understands it better than I do, but that, like, little humble goes a long way. Like, and that whole, like, "Yeah, I don't know. I was looking at it, and I was trying to make sense of it. I'm not that... You know, you gotta explain it to me like I'm a seven-year-old, you know?" And it, and all of a sudden I'm like, oh, he's doing the thing.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:07:50

       Oh.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:07:50

       He's, like, doing the advocacy thing, but it's like, "Aw, shucks, I don't know what I'm talking about." And I have to tell you, like, to me, that's the best lawyering. It's the best... Like, the best negotiation, you don't know we're in a negotiation. The best seduction, you don't know I'm trying to seduce you. Next thing you know, you're just in bed with me. Like, and you kinda go, "How'd that happen?" You know? Like, and that... Because again, the more that it's, like, right, like, I'm clearly trying to get you in bed, that's not what's gonna work. What's gonna work is, like, the I find you fascinating. Like, that is, like, whoa, okay. You know? Like, now you got my attention. So I, I really think that that's the best kind of advocacy is, is that, that covert advocacy.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:29

       Yeah, I always know I'm about to get totally hoisted one over on in a deal when it's, 'cause I live in Texas, as you know.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:08:37

       Yeah.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:37

        But in Texas, when it's a, an older Texan-

    11. JSJames Sexton1:08:41

        Mm

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:41

        ... and a slower drawl, and it happened to me once early on, and now I know to look for it, and he's like, "Well, you know, I don't know. I'm just a, I'm just a slower Texan over here from..." And I just-

    13. JSJames Sexton1:08:52

        Ah, shucks

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:52

        ... I have s- But explain to me, and then proceeds to ask the most obliterating of questions.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:08:56

        Right, right, right.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:08:57

        But it's that self-deprecation.

    17. JSJames Sexton1:09:00

        Why, why would I, why wouldn't I, blah, blah, blah-

    18. CSCodie Sanchez1:09:02

        Oh, yeah

    19. JSJames Sexton1:09:02

        ... and then he explains the counter theory that you're like, "Oh, shit, I was hoping he didn't know that that was a possibility."

    20. CSCodie Sanchez1:09:07

        100%. And so now-

    21. JSJames Sexton1:09:07

        If you're paying this for that, why wouldn't I just do this instead? And you're sitting there going-

    22. CSCodie Sanchez1:09:11

        I must be dumb, and you're like, "Oh, you're so much smarter than I." [laughs]

    23. JSJames Sexton1:09:14

        Like, oh, I don't, I got nothing for this. Yeah, I got nothing. There's, that's kryptonite right there. And, and look, there's something, again, like, don't sweat the technique. Like, that is beautiful, beautiful stuff. And I, I think we have a lot to learn from that because it's kind of all a negotiation, isn't it?

    24. CSCodie Sanchez1:09:31

        Yeah.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:09:31

        Like, all of this stuff, our whole lives is a series of negotiations. It's a series of arguments. Like, we got it in our heads that, like, an argument is about making the other person feel small, but it's actually not. It's really about, like, a series of logical steps to get a person to view things the way that, you know, your position would, would help them be viewed that way, like, that, that, that feeds into the flow you're trying to get them through. So yeah, I think there's tremendous value in, like, watching how people do it well.

    26. CSCodie Sanchez1:10:02

        Yeah. I know there was a, there was a quote, uh, something like, "A good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge."

    27. JSJames Sexton1:10:10

        100%. Yeah, and it, and that, that joke is funny on two levels 'cause people think it means, like, oh, we know the judge, but what it means is I know what annoys this judge. I know what resonates-

    28. CSCodie Sanchez1:10:21

        Mm

    29. JSJames Sexton1:10:21

        ... with this judge. Like, there are judges here that I know they really like sports metaphors, so I'll, like, my opposing counsel's Hail Mary pass is that, you know, "Your Honor, he's trying to call an audible right now on this." And I, I, again, I'm not into sports, but I know enough that I can, like, use those metaphors. You know who's a parent and who's not. You know who's divorced themself and who's not. Like, you know people's... Like, you get to know what works with this judge. Sometimes, by the way, by being on the receiving end of the opposite. Like, sometimes you make an argument and you're like, "Well, that one didn't work."

    30. CSCodie Sanchez1:10:54

        Yeah.
22. 1:10:57 – 1:14:27

    A Good Lawyer Knows the Law, A Great Lawyer Knows the Judge

    1. JSJames Sexton1:10:57

       make an effective argument, and then you say, "Well, you know, Your Honor, as in that other matter we have together, when my adversary said X, Y, and Z," so you start to, like, know the judge's proclivities. That's a lot of what you're doing when you hire experienced counsel, is you're hiring someone who kind of knows the proclivities of the judge. But again, that's all about, just like in relationship, it's all about paying attention. Like, paying attention to this unique organism that's in front of you. Like, that's why at the end of a day at trial, I'm, I'm exhausted in a way that I, I don't even know how to put into words because I'm... It- it's kinda like when I was a waiter. Like, it is so hard to make it look so easy.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:11:35

       Yeah.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:11:35

       You know, you go in the kitchen and it's like, "Fire food on five. These, I'm, these, I got this dine on the bar." And then you walk out and you're like...

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:11:40

       [laughs]

    5. JSJames Sexton1:11:42

       Everything's so serene, you know? Of course I'll get that for you right now, you know?

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:11:45

       Oh.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:11:45

       And you, then you go back and you're like, "I need ranch on five," you know? Like, it... But the truth is, like, you, it takes a lot of effort to make something look so easy.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:11:53

       Mm.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:11:53

       The same thing happens in, in courtrooms. Like, by the time we walk into the courtroom, the trial's, like, half over.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:12:00

        Mm.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:12:00

        Like, when I was a kid, my, my parents used to have barbecues, and my mom would, like, go to the store, buy all these ingredients, chop everything up, marinate it, prepare it beautifully, and my dad would take it, put it on the grill, and then take it off the grill. And everyone would go, "Oh my God, Noah, you're such a good cook." Like, she had done 99.9% of the difficult work. He had literally just been there for the last mile of the marathon, if even, like the .2 part of the 26.2, and he would get all the credit, and I think that that's what happens at trials. Like, at trials, it's like by the time you walk in that courtroom, all the prep work's done, all the hard work's done. I think it's the same thing with relationships, too. It's like, you know, by the time you guys are in the fight, it's kinda too late. Like, a lot of people learn how to fight while they're in a fight. That's the worst time to learn how to fight. Like, really. Like, when you're dating somebody and you're not in a fight, have a conversation about getting in a fight. Like, say to them, "By the way, we're gonna get in a fight. Like, it'll, it'll probably be my fault. I'll probably say something stupid. I tend to say dumb shit sometimes. So when we get in a fight, what, how, what works for you? Do you need a minute?"

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:13:11

        Mm.

    13. JSJames Sexton1:13:11

        "Should I, like, not try to force the conversation? Do you need to cool off? Or are you the, like, 'Hey, we gotta figure this out tonight. Like, we can't go to bed mad' type? 'Cause, like, I'll meet you where you're at, you know?" Like, I, again, talking about things that no one ever taught me. That it took me 50 years to learn. Like, it took me 50 years to learn of being in unsuccessful relationships that I could just say, like, 'cause I, I have one mode. If I'm telling you about a problem I have, I want your help. If I say to you, "I'm having this problem with my son." If I called Chris, I consider Chris a friend. If I called Chris and I said, "Chris, I'm having this problem with one of my sons, X, Y, and Z." And he went, "That must be really hard, Jim." I'd be like, "Yeah, no shit, Chris. That's why I called you."

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:13:59

        [laughs]

    15. JSJames Sexton1:14:00

        "What should I do? Like, what do you think I should do?" Whereas, and again, it took me 50 years to figure it out, a lot of times the women in my life in particular just want me to hear them. They want me to hear them, not try to fix it. They interpret me explaining how they could fix it as belittling their emotional experience and not giving credit to their problem-solving skills. Like,

23. 1:14:27 – 1:17:48

    The Menu Framework: Listening, Fixing, or Distraction

    1. JSJames Sexton1:14:27

       they just want me to go, "Oh man, that sucks. Like, that, that's- she shouldn't have said that to you. That's really terrible, man. You didn't deserve that." And then I can see them go, "Thank you. Like, yeah, exact- that's what I thought. Like, I didn't deserve that." And I'm like, "No, you totally didn't deserve. That sucks." Like, but again, what would stop us in relationship from you come home and tell me something awful that happened to you today. Some deal fell through, something went wrong, something went... And I go, "Okay, here's the menu. There's a whole menu. I can listen to this, and I can just be here and listen to what you're saying. I can give you some suggestions of what I think you might wanna do to, like, deal with that or solve it or whatever. We can go in the other room and take our clothes off and roll around, and I'll take your mind off of it. We can order a pizza and sit on the couch and watch that show that you wanted to watch, and we'll just take our minds off of it. We can-- You can pick anything on that menu. And by the way, if it's not working, tell me, and we'll switch to another thing, right? Or if you want me to pick, I'll pick. I'll just start throwing stuff at it, and if something's not feeling good, tell me, and we'll switch to another thing." Why can't we do-- Why is it that we're supposed to be experts at this? Like, I'm, I'm 53, I've been in therapy for a good 20 years, and I understand about 50% of this guy, and I'm in here. Like, I'm in here, and I get about 50% of this guy, and I get it wrong a lot of the time. Like, what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking? Why am I feeling that? Why is that bothering me? Why is that... Like, I'm supposed to figure you out perfectly? I'm not in there. Like, I'm in here, and I can't figure it out. So could we give each other a little grace? Could we give each other a menu? What would be wrong with just giving each other a menu? Isn't it lovely to have options? Like, why do I like the Cheesecake Factory? 'Cause I have no idea what I wanna eat, and it's got 80 pages in the menu, and it's like, okay, I can have anything I want. And, and by the way, why do some people hate it? 'Cause there's just too damn many choices. So great, I'll pick for you, and if it's wrong, okay, then choose something else. Like, let's, let's do this for each other. There's no reason not to.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:43

       You've seen thousands of cases. You've been married before.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:16:47

       Yeah.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:48

       There's a 70% failure rate to marriage.

    5. JSJames Sexton1:16:51

       Roughly.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:51

       Well, roughly, or like-

    7. JSJames Sexton1:16:52

       It depends on how you define failure

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:53

       ... yeah, if it's not happily married, but stay married-

    9. JSJames Sexton1:16:56

       Yeah

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:56

        ... whatever. But I know you're in partnership.

    11. JSJames Sexton1:16:58

        Yeah.

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:16:59

        So, like, does marriage still work? Why do you go back to having a partner?

    13. JSJames Sexton1:17:06

        I think love, I think love is... Like, when-- The question people most often ask me is, being a divorce lawyer for 25 plus years, do you believe in love?

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:17:17

        Mm.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:17:17

        Do you believe in romantic love? And, and I have to tell you, it, it strikes me as the silliest question. It's like someone saying, "Do you believe in gravity?"

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:17:26

        Mm.

    17. JSJames Sexton1:17:26

        I don't have to believe in gravity. It's there. It exists all around me. Like, like, love is, is really everything. It's the only thing that really matters to any of us. Like, I genuinely believe that. All of these other things are just symbols of our desire to be loved and to be

24. 1:17:48 – 1:19:45

    Does Marriage Still Work: The 70 Percent Failure Rate Question

    1. JSJames Sexton1:17:48

       worthy of love. All of these accomplishments are just ways that we're trying to tell the world that we're worthy of love.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:17:55

       Mm.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:17:56

       Like, that's really all they are. Like, they really are just things we do so that someone we respect and care about says, "I'm so proud of you."

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:18:04

       Mm.

    5. JSJames Sexton1:18:05

       Like, what feels better than someone saying, "Codie, you wrote this book. I'm so proud of you. You have so much going on in your life, and you found the time to do this thing and share it with the world. I'm so proud of you for that. You had so many reasons why you wouldn't get that done, and you got it done. I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud to know you." Like, doesn't that just do something to your heart that you go like, "Thanks." Like, "Thank you." Like, that's-- And that's a real sentiment. That's a real thing. And by the way, it feels good to say it to someone I care about, to tell them I'm proud of them. 'Cause I know how it feels when someone tells me they're proud of me, and I know how healing and wonderful and warm it feels. And I, I genuinely believe when I look back on my life, it's those moments of connection with another person, like, that I will remember. I, I like to look at relationships as chapters in a long book.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:19:02

       Mm.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:19:03

       And, and a chapter ends, and a new chapter begins. It doesn't mean that that chapter was a failure. Like, I was married, and it ended. And, and she's been remarried for 15 years to a wonderful man who's absolutely nothing like me, except that we're both tall. Other than that, there's very little in common, and he's lovely. Like, he's lovely. I got to hang out with him at my son's wedding for, like, half the day. We were doing the bow ties with the ushers and stuff, and it was, like, the greatest thing. And I- I loved her enough and I loved her and knew her long enough that when I would hang out with this guy, I'm always like, "Oh yeah, he's perfect for her." Like, he's, he's perfect for her

25. 1:19:45 – 1:26:09

    Chapters in a Long Book: Reframing Divorce as Part of Your Story, Not Failure

    1. JSJames Sexton1:19:45

       in all these ways that I just wasn't. Like, I love her, but there's so many people that I love but wouldn't wanna be married to. Like, and, and I think that that's okay. Like, I think that my ex-wife would say, "Jim is a really great ex-husband. Like, I love him, but I would never wanna be married to him." Like, and I don't blame her. Like, being married, like, being married is a skill set and, and it's not a skill set for everybody. Like, and, and again, we just assume that people are supposed to get married. Like, if you say, "I've made the decision to get married," it would be indelicate for a person to go, "Really? Why? Why?" I, I mean, by the way, perfectly reasonable question.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:20:31

       Mm.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:20:31

       You're signing up for something with roughly a 70% failure rate. It's reasonable to go, "Really? Why are you doing that?" Like, that doesn't seem like a very good idea. Like, you know, like what is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you? Like, do you have that problem? Will marriage actually solve that problem? Like, why are you doing this thing, you know? And it's ... But instead, it's the opposite. I'm, I'm not, I'm thinking I'm not gonna do the thing that fails, like, 70% of the time. People go, "Really? Why? Do you have intimacy issues?" It's like, "No, I might just be rational."

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:21:02

       [laughs]

    5. JSJames Sexton1:21:03

       I might just understand math and how it works. But again, like, is, is that an invitation to turning off your heart and turning off the potential for connection? Like, no. I, I think ... I look back on every single woman I've ever had a romantic relationship with, and there is a moment that when I think of it, I smile and I think like, "Oh, that, they, they made me a better person." Like, I learned something about myself or about life or about love from them.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:21:36

       Mm.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:21:37

       And I, I really, really, really hope that my ex-girlfriends and ex-wife think, "You know, my life was a little better for Jim's presence in it," and that, like, he gave me something of value and I gave him something of ... 'Cause I have to tell you, every woman I ever had a romantic relationship with, I, I got something of value from that relationship, and every single one of them, I know I never entered into that relationship with anything but good intentions.

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:22:04

       100%.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:22:04

       Like, I, I wanted to love them well, and I didn't. And it wasn't that I, you know, I, I, I just didn't care about them, it was just that I didn't have the tools. At that stage in life, at that moment, I didn't have the tools or I wasn't the right fit for them, and it was never about wanting to hurt them or to fail them in some way. Like, I failed with good intentions. That's something that people fail all the time at. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be ashamed of that.

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:22:34

        Yeah. Also, God, how much better off would we all be if more of us said that? I think the scary reason-

    11. JSJames Sexton1:22:40

        Yeah

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:22:40

        ... why we don't say that is because we're afraid that the other person might say, "No, she's a real cunt," you know?

    13. JSJames Sexton1:22:46

        Yeah.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:22:46

        Just period, end of story.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:22:48

        Yeah.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:22:48

        But instead, if you're like, "Well, mate, you know, listen, everything doesn't end well and I don't have any expectations about what the other person might have felt, but I learned something from it."

    17. JSJames Sexton1:22:56

        Well, and accept the possibility. Like, I remember, you know, my ex-wife and I now have been divorced 20 years, so it's a lot easier to talk about things from a distance, you know?

    18. CSCodie Sanchez1:23:03

        Yeah.

    19. JSJames Sexton1:23:03

        When I talk about my mom's passing 10 years ago, it's a lot softer to talk about now-

    20. CSCodie Sanchez1:23:07

        Yeah

    21. JSJames Sexton1:23:07

        ... than it was, you know, eight years ago when it was a fresh wound, right? So time is healing in some ways. But I remember, like, early in our divorce, we were, we were standing at, like, one of our kid's track meets or something and, uh, we were still, there was still some hurt between us. And she said something like, "You know, Jim, like, you were, like, you just weren't there so much of the time. Like, you just were just absent. Like, you were just always thinking about work or always thinking about ... Like, you'll never love anyone the way you love the law. Like, you're-

    22. CSCodie Sanchez1:23:36

        Oh

    23. JSJames Sexton1:23:37

        ... it was always this harsh mistress that was always in the room, you know?" And, uh, and she was like, "You know, and I was a good wife to you. Like, I was really there. Like, I wanted to love you and I wanted you to love me." And she was totally right. But I remember I said to her, I was like, "Okay. Like, let's accept that that's totally true. Like, let's take it a step further. You were absolutely perfect in the marriage. It was entirely my fault. I completely was the one who screwed it up. You have no blame in this whatsoever. It was solely me. Now what? Now what? We have two children together and our marriage is over. What, what would you like ... Do you want me to say I'm sorry? I've said it a thousand times. I'll say it as many more times as you'd like me to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all the things I got wrong and did wrong. I know I didn't mean to hurt you. I know I did, and I'm profoundly sorry for it. I really am. I'm profoundly sorry for my weakness as a human being, for my failings, for the things I get wrong. I am so sorry. You deserve better than that. I'm sorry. Now what? Now what? It's everyone's fault, or it's no one's fault, or it's all my fault, or it's half your fault. Now what? What do we do? Like, we're here. We have the tools we have. We have the time we have. What are we gonna do with it, guys?"

    24. CSCodie Sanchez1:24:59

        Mm.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:24:59

        "Are we gonna go on the algorithm and talk about how much men suck and how much women suck and bring that energy into our next relationship? Like, or is it possible that we might be brave enough to be vulnerable and say, 'Yeah. Yeah, I'm human. I get some things wrong, I get some things right. You probably do, too.'" Like, I, I want the people in my life to see all my weaknesses. I really do. It's just like my case. Just like when I present my case, I wanna get ahead of it. I want the eight-mile strategy.

    26. CSCodie Sanchez1:25:30

        Mm.

    27. JSJames Sexton1:25:31

        Because here's the thing: if all I show you is how put together and phenomenal I am, and I hide all the weak parts in me and all the vulnerable, stupid, silly, impatient, impetuous parts of me- All the shit I need to work on. If I hide all that, I will never feel your love. I will never feel your love. You don't love me, you love the character I'm playing effectively. No, like, you, I want you to see all that stuff and go, "Oh yeah, I see all that, but that doesn't define you. You're all of this. You have all these weaknesses, but they're wonderful. You're perfect how imperfect you are. You're great." Like, that's how we wanna be loved. That's how I wanna be loved. And by the way, that's how

26. 1:26:09 – 1:30:30

    The Vulnerability Invitation: Showing Your Weaknesses So You Can Feel Real Love

    1. JSJames Sexton1:26:09

       I love the people I love.

    2. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:10

       Mm.

    3. JSJames Sexton1:26:11

       Like, the people I love, like you don't, you don't have to be perfect at all for me to love you. I love you more 'cause you're not im- like I love you for your imperfections. I love all the things you get wrong and how you just keep trying. Like I, I want that. I want that kind of love, and I wanna give that kind of love to another person. And I, I, I think if, if we could do more of that, we would all be a lot happier and I'd have to get a real job.

    4. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:35

       James Sexton, so good. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

    5. JSJames Sexton1:26:38

       It was a blast. I had fun.

    6. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:38

       I can't wait for the next book, which I hear rumblings may be coming out.

    7. JSJames Sexton1:26:42

       2027. September of 2027. Who knew that the publishing cycle takes so damn long, but...

    8. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:46

       And where do you like people to follow the most? I personally like your Instagram.

    9. JSJames Sexton1:26:50

       Instagram. That's really it. I don't, I don't do any of the other things really. I mean, I think I have a TikTok, but I-

    10. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:54

        [laughs]

    11. JSJames Sexton1:26:55

        ... I don't have it on my phone. Like, I don't-

    12. CSCodie Sanchez1:26:57

        That seems very well adjusted

    13. JSJames Sexton1:26:58

        ... I have people post it, like it, uh, for me, like, but I don't have anything to do with it.

    14. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:02

        No, Instagram's so good.

    15. JSJames Sexton1:27:02

        Yeah.

    16. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:03

        You're the man. I love following you.

    17. JSJames Sexton1:27:03

        The Instagram is @nycdivorcelawyer, and uh, yeah, it's, it's, um, that's really the place to find me. I, I... That, otherwise you just find me down at 60 Centre Street in Manhattan in the courthouse. You know? Like the-

    18. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:13

        Dude, that's still on my list.

    19. JSJames Sexton1:27:14

        You gotta come.

    20. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:15

        I gotta come see.

    21. JSJames Sexton1:27:15

        Oh, it's the greatest show in town.

    22. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:16

        The, the, the following this priming thing.

    23. JSJames Sexton1:27:18

        Oh, come on.

    24. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:19

        I know, we can't have a camera in there is my main problem.

    25. JSJames Sexton1:27:21

        You can't.

    26. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:21

        That's what I... [laughs] I was like-

    27. JSJames Sexton1:27:22

        I know

    28. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:22

        ... "Can we?" He's like, "You cannot." He's kind of-

    29. JSJames Sexton1:27:24

        That's part of what makes it fun though

    30. CSCodie Sanchez1:27:25

        ... absolutely no.

Episode duration: 1:30:30