Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On

1. 0:00 – 8:10

   Introduction

   1. BBBrené Brown0:00

      [upbeat music] Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. I'm Brené Brown.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:09

      And I'm Adam Grant.

   3. BBBrené Brown0:10

      We're glad you're here. We're here.

   4. AGAdam Grant0:13

      I'm glad we're here.

   5. BBBrené Brown0:14

      I'm glad we're here. Um, I'm-

   6. AGAdam Grant0:15

      Minor miracle

   7. BBBrené Brown0:16

      ... I'm, I'm shocked we're here.

   8. AGAdam Grant0:17

      Really surprising.

   9. BBBrené Brown0:18

      We did it.

   10. AGAdam Grant0:19

       Well, we're-

   11. BBBrené Brown0:20

       Well, we're-

   12. AGAdam Grant0:20

       ... we're doing it

   13. BBBrené Brown0:20

       ... well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not get too excited. Um, two things that I think we should talk about today for our first podcast, maiden voyage. One, how we got here, and almost didn't get here.

   14. AGAdam Grant0:34

       Are you sure we wanna go there?

   15. BBBrené Brown0:36

       I think we should. Um, and if this absolutely goes to hell, what our best predictions are about why it'll go to hell. [laughs] How about that?

   16. AGAdam Grant0:50

       I, uh, I definitely look forward to that one.

   17. BBBrené Brown0:52

       Yeah. So let's jump in.

   18. AGAdam Grant0:53

       Okay, before we do that-

   19. BBBrené Brown0:54

       Okay

   20. AGAdam Grant0:54

       ... we just, I wanna take a quick moment to thank our launch sponsors. We have SAS, powering better decisions with data and AI. You can learn more at sas.com. That's S-A-S.com.

   21. BBBrené Brown1:05

       And if you're looking for a partner in design and productivity, you can also check out our other launch sponsor, which is Canva. Um, you can learn more at canva.com. I love... Uh, I'm, I'm self-teaching myself Canva.

   22. AGAdam Grant1:18

       Ooh.

   23. BBBrené Brown1:18

       It's really fun. Um, if you can't find me sometime, it's because I'm trying to make cool things. Um, that's canva.com, and thank y'all both for being launch sponsors.

   24. AGAdam Grant1:28

       Yeah.

   25. BBBrené Brown1:28

       It's exciting.

   26. AGAdam Grant1:29

       Uh, we're obviously thrilled to have them on board, and you'll get to hear more about them as we go.

   27. BBBrené Brown1:33

       Yeah. Let's do it. Okay. What, what was your surp- Okay. The... So this really is a surprise question, and I'm, I have mixed feelings about it already.

   28. AGAdam Grant1:41

       I can tell.

   29. BBBrené Brown1:42

       Yeah.

   30. AGAdam Grant1:42

       Well, you know, I was just thinking about how we got here.
2. 8:10 – 25:50

   Our First Disagreement

   1. AGAdam Grant8:11

      I think.

   2. BBBrené Brown8:12

      Well, I was okay with disagreeing with you because you were wrong.

   3. AGAdam Grant8:14

      [laughs]

   4. BBBrené Brown8:15

      Um, but... So tell the story about how we first encountered each other.

   5. AGAdam Grant8:23

      Well, I, I remember meeting in a green room backstage before, uh, an event that we were both speaking at, and we probably chatted for five minutes.

   6. BBBrené Brown8:31

      This was before our desktop?

   7. AGAdam Grant8:32

      Yeah. Yeah, this was a decade ago probably.

   8. BBBrené Brown8:35

      Oh, wow. Okay. I don't remember.

   9. AGAdam Grant8:37

      Maybe, no, it was longer. I think it was 2013, 2014.

   10. BBBrené Brown8:41

       Would it... Yeah, I don't remember.

   11. AGAdam Grant8:42

       I think we were in Arizona, and we met backstage or... No, it was a green room, and I think we chatted for five minutes, and that was the end of it. And-

   12. BBBrené Brown8:52

       I, I clearly left a bad impression because you took me down in your online article.

   13. AGAdam Grant8:57

       It was not my intent.

   14. BBBrené Brown8:57

       That was your article for New York Times. Yeah, go ahead.

   15. AGAdam Grant8:59

       Not my intent.

   16. BBBrené Brown8:59

       Go ahead. Uh, clearly that was not a good meeting. This was not a good meeting, folks.

   17. AGAdam Grant9:03

       It was... I thought it, the meeting was fine.

   18. BBBrené Brown9:04

       Okay, so let's talk about how-

   19. AGAdam Grant9:05

       I actually left it feeling like I was awkward because I felt like I knew who you were and you didn't know who I was.

   20. BBBrené Brown9:14

       That I would be surprised if I didn't know who you were in 2013.

   21. AGAdam Grant9:17

       I don't know. I, I just, I just walked in and introduced myself. I don't, I don't know if she knows who I am, and I don't know if I should introduce myself as if she does or doesn't and didn't know what to do with that.

   22. BBBrené Brown9:27

       Do you know, it's probably 'cause when I'm in a green room, I'm locked in.

   23. AGAdam Grant9:30

       Yeah.

   24. BBBrené Brown9:30

       And that's probably why I'm locked in, 'cause I'm praying.

   25. AGAdam Grant9:34

       To, to whom?

   26. BBBrené Brown9:37

       God. I am praying. I have a prayer that I say every time before I speak.

   27. AGAdam Grant9:40

       Before a speech?

   28. BBBrené Brown9:41

       Before a talk or anything.

   29. AGAdam Grant9:43

       Really?

   30. BBBrené Brown9:43

       Oh, yeah.
3. 25:50 – 34:28

   Our Path Here

   1. AGAdam Grant25:50

      Do I?

   2. BBBrené Brown25:50

      I... Yeah, you just go ahead.

   3. AGAdam Grant25:51

      Maybe.

   4. BBBrené Brown25:51

      You called for, for, you asked me for a favor.

   5. AGAdam Grant25:54

      I asked for help, yeah. I was, uh... Well, yeah, I was, I mean, I was reading and learning so much from your work and watching your talks and every... The other thing that happened was everywhere I went, you had spoken.

   6. BBBrené Brown26:09

      [laughs] Same. [laughs]

   7. AGAdam Grant26:11

      And I kept hearing... I, I actually, I have a, I have two questions I always ask when I, when I'm either speaking at an event or visiting an organization. One is, what can I do better? The other is, who's the person who's had the most impact? And every single place I went, when I asked, "Who has most helped your organization or your people?" The answer was Brené Brown. And at first I was like, "Fucking damn it." [laughs] Like, I hate that. This, I, this is terrible.

   8. BBBrené Brown26:40

      Newman. [laughs]

   9. AGAdam Grant26:40

      Exactly, Newman. It was, it was such a Seinfeld moment for me. Newman. Uh, and then it happened enough times a- and I had been internalizing much more of your work, and I'd, I found myself quoting you, saying, "As Brené Brown says, clear is kind." And I, I think I begrudgingly had to admit that there was value in your work, and I find it really hard to fully separate f- the art from the artist.

   10. BBBrené Brown27:06

       Same.

   11. AGAdam Grant27:06

       I think your values are infused in, in what you create. And so I, I, I started coming around to the idea, this person has a lot to contribute. She probably has a lot of virtues. [laughs] And yeah, then I was, uh, during COVID, I was working with a women's sports team and having a hard time getting them to engage with some of the, the, the research and ideas that I thought would help them. And I decided to create a little speaker series, uh, 'cause nobody could go anywhere during-

   12. BBBrené Brown27:37

       Oh, yeah

   13. AGAdam Grant27:38

       ... during COVID.

   14. BBBrené Brown27:38

       Yeah.

   15. AGAdam Grant27:39

       Uh, so I said, "Let's do this virtually. I'll, I'll bring in speakers. Who do you want?" And the number one request was Brené Brown. And I, and, ugh, Newman. And I thought, "What do I have to lose? Worst that happens is she still hates me, and we don't talk. We already don't talk. She probably already hates me." [laughs] And I was so surprised. I, I reached out to you, and you said yes immediately by email. You responded to an email.

   16. BBBrené Brown28:03

       I did respond to your email.

   17. AGAdam Grant28:04

       That's very unlike you, Brené.

   18. BBBrené Brown28:05

       Yeah.

   19. AGAdam Grant28:05

       And, and I remember you showing up and just y- one, you know, just imparting so much wisdom to the team, and two, making it clear that you wanted to help even somebody you didn't like. Like, who does that?

   20. BBBrené Brown28:25

       Yeah, because I felt hypocritical because I think you probably, that email caught me right in the middle of reading one of your books. Um, and I, I think I was talking to my kids about your work, too, 'cause I thought it was really helpful. And so I was just like, "This is so, this is just stupid. I don't know, I don't know what we're..." I mean, like, like, life is too hard at this point 'cause we were in the middle of COVID. Um, just stuff was hard. Um, I thought it was really generous to reach out to me. I mean, it's int- it's interesting. Um, the first time we did a Dare To Lead intervention was at the Gates Foundation. And we asked, that was the first place we asked this later, this, this group of leaders this question, and we've since asked over 10,000 leaders. And what is the thing that your direct reports do that build trust for you? Like, what, you, someone's reporting to you, what's a behavior they engage in? And I, everyone always thinks it's gonna be reliability, like, you can de- dependability or reliability, and the number one thing is always they ask for help. When someone who reports to me asks for help, my trust for them skyrocks, skyrockets. So I think when you asked for help, I kinda felt like this is, this is, this is, first of all, hypocritical internally. Doesn't make sense to me. Um, he can't be the avatar for a general frustration I had 'cause I, because I am the avatar for so many people's frustration, and that's so unfair and hurtful. And so I was like, "This is a great opportunity."

   21. AGAdam Grant29:55

       Wow.

   22. BBBrené Brown29:56

       Yeah.

   23. AGAdam Grant29:56

       Look at that.

   24. BBBrené Brown29:57

       But we've never talked about this. It's so weird.

   25. AGAdam Grant29:59

       Well, okay, so a couple things. One, you're reminding me of a, a classic paper by Jecker and Landy, 1965. Uh, fact check that later. Um, the, the paper is about liking a person as a function of doing a favor for them, and how when you are asked for help, when you help the person, if you weren't forced or obligated to do it, you come away thinking, "Well, I must care about them or like them, otherwise why in the world was I doing this?"And-

   26. BBBrené Brown30:24

       God, that's interesting

   27. AGAdam Grant30:25

       ... I didn't even, obviously didn't [laughs] cross my mind. I was just desperate to try to get through to this team when I reached out to you, but-

   28. BBBrené Brown30:30

       It w- that, I have to tell you, that was a, that was a tough gig.

   29. AGAdam Grant30:33

       It was, uh, it was definitely challenging. Um, and it was a Hail Mary pass to you, which you kindly caught. [laughs]

   30. BBBrené Brown30:38

       Ran down the field and boom. [laughs]
4. 34:28 – 52:59

   How to Repair an Apology

   1. BBBrené Brown34:28

      I found really surprising is I don't think I've ever been across from someone who has, who ha- that I've experienced taking more full accountability in a repair situation and issuing a more thoughtful apology than you.

   2. AGAdam Grant34:44

      Thank you.

   3. BBBrené Brown34:45

      That has been a very big learning for me about what I could do better.

   4. AGAdam Grant34:49

      Really?

   5. BBBrené Brown34:49

      Yeah. And so I think at the top of that podcast, we, it, we, I chose not to air it. They actually, they ac- asked me, like, "Wow, that was so beautiful. Do you wanna put this, include this on the podcast?" 'Cause we were already recording.

   6. AGAdam Grant35:03

      Wow.

   7. BBBrené Brown35:04

      Yeah. And I said, "No, it was personal." Yeah.

   8. AGAdam Grant35:06

      Do you still have it?

   9. BBBrené Brown35:08

      I doubt it. I doubt it. The, I, I don't know. I don't, I don't know. Do we keep those things? [laughs] I don't know.

   10. AGAdam Grant35:14

       I don't know.

   11. BBBrené Brown35:14

       I don't know, I don't know, I doubt it.

   12. AGAdam Grant35:15

       No, I'm, I'm curious to listen to it and learn from it.

   13. BBBrené Brown35:17

       Yeah, no, I think it was... Well, uh, you mean your own apology?

   14. AGAdam Grant35:20

       Yeah.

   15. BBBrené Brown35:20

       Oh, I've got one in fr- in another one from you in writing, more recent. [laughs]

   16. AGAdam Grant35:24

       Very recent. No, that was extremely recent.

   17. BBBrené Brown35:27

       Yeah. That, um-

   18. AGAdam Grant35:28

       Which you have not responded to.

   19. BBBrené Brown35:30

       Because we did it over the phone.

   20. AGAdam Grant35:31

       I know, but I wanted to document it to make it really clear that I understood the mistake I made, and I was gonna correct it moving forward, and I also wanted you to have it to share with your team, 'cause I think I left them feeling a little devalued.

   21. BBBrené Brown35:47

       But you reached out to them individually and then-

   22. AGAdam Grant35:49

       No, a lot of-

   23. BBBrené Brown35:49

       But, okay, well, I didn't-

   24. AGAdam Grant35:51

       And, and I didn't even know who was affected.

   25. BBBrené Brown35:53

       Okay. Well, I just wanna say that I think your repair and apology, Harriet Lerner, who I did this podcast with on apologizing, she's just one of the greatest mentors and teachers, um, would be like, "Damn, y'all, this is, this is a master class in repair and apology."

   26. AGAdam Grant36:10

       Well, thank you. I, I appreciate that.

   27. BBBrené Brown36:12

       Where does that come from?

   28. AGAdam Grant36:13

       I, I think it comes from, it comes from two places. I think, I think I, I grew up in an environment where people didn't know how to repairAnd I just, I don't, I don't know, I don't know... A-actually, I'm not... I'm trying to, I'm trying to make sense of this. I think the short version is... Let me, let me try this again. I think there's something about being a child of divorce that led me to say, "I'm gonna be the peacemaker. I'm gonna make sure everyone always gets along." And I, I... So what I learned, like one of my core values is, you know, is kindness and generosity, and you can't always make sure that your behavior the-lands the way you want it to. And so if you don't get good at righting your wrongs, then you're gonna have a lot of damaged relationships. And so I think that was, that was in the background. I think I, I struggled early on. I, I really like being right. You know this about me.

   29. BBBrené Brown37:24

       Yeah.

   30. AGAdam Grant37:24

       And admitting that I, I was wrong is... It's really hard for me. And, and when I struggle with something like that, I feel like I have to overcorrect in order to, uh, to, like, to build the, the skill that I'm trying to build. And so I, I actually [laughs] I, I... It's something I started practicing. Like, Allison would give me a, a, a hard time, um, because, you know, I, like, I didn't wanna kind of admit that I was wrong in an argument, and then the next day, I would have to very sheepishly come to her and, like, do my little Happy Gilmore routine. Do you know this scene?
5. 52:59 – 57:58

   Closing Question

   1. BBBrené Brown52:59

      really am looking for my quote. Give me two seconds.

   2. AGAdam Grant53:01

      Okay.

   3. BBBrené Brown53:01

      There are me and Steve at prom. Um, I can't... And I don't even care. Like, we don't even have to cut this, 'cause this is what real life looks like. But I don't know where this co- quote is, but I'm gonna say it and maybe you can, you'll probably know it from memory. It's so irritating. It's a quote by a German philosopher that talks about the reason that complex simplicity is so rare is because it's mostly grossly misunderstood and requires some information to get. Like-

   4. AGAdam Grant53:33

      Hm

   5. BBBrené Brown53:33

      ... like, I, I, I'm gonna find it and put it in the show notes. But, like, this-

   6. AGAdam Grant53:36

      Please do

   7. BBBrené Brown53:37

      ... this-

   8. AGAdam Grant53:37

      I lo- I, I, by the way, I love the way you just reframed that as, as complex simplicity. That's a great paradox.

   9. BBBrené Brown53:44

      But complex simplicity is why metaphor and story and analogy-

   10. AGAdam Grant53:49

       Yes

   11. BBBrené Brown53:49

       ... to say, take something complex and then-

   12. AGAdam Grant53:50

       Yes

   13. BBBrené Brown53:50

       ... put it in a dimension that people understand.

   14. AGAdam Grant53:52

       And poetry, too. And this is why we're doing this show. Like, the c- The Curiosity Shop is all about trying to reach complex simplicity in a world that wants easy answers and quick fixes and consumes way too much snake oil.

   15. BBBrené Brown54:12

       And, my God, we should leave it there. We should thank Canva, and we should thank-

   16. AGAdam Grant54:16

       And Sass

   17. BBBrené Brown54:17

       ... Sass for being, um, kind of launch partner and sponsors with us. We're grateful for that. Um, okay, so this is exactly how this shit's going down. We have an agenda, and we get on a rabbit trail of research and con- But this was a good conversation. I really appreciated it. And I do really appreciate, um, your commitment to being good at repair and apology, and I can say that it's had an impact on me.

   18. AGAdam Grant54:42

       Oh, well, thank you. And-

   19. BBBrené Brown54:43

       Not just on the receiving end of it, but-Getting better at doing it myself.

   20. AGAdam Grant54:49

       Well, but the, that only happens because I've started to absorb some of your willingness to rumble-

   21. BBBrené Brown54:55

       Mm

   22. AGAdam Grant54:55

       ... and, and have difficult conversations that I was too much of a chicken to have for a lot of my life. And I just don't wanna be that person anymore.

   23. BBBrené Brown55:03

       Yeah, same. I'll work on it with you. Pinky.

   24. AGAdam Grant55:06

       Thank you.

   25. BBBrené Brown55:06

       Oh, look, he goes for the fist bump.

   26. AGAdam Grant55:07

       Yeah.

   27. BBBrené Brown55:07

       I go for the pinky promise. [laughs] Um, all right. First episode in the can. What do we think?

   28. AGAdam Grant55:13

       We did it. I don't know. I, I think we should do our 0 to 10 rating and give each other a note on how we can do better next time.

   29. BBBrené Brown55:19

       Okay. Um...

   30. AGAdam Grant55:22

       Now, the 0 to 10 is gonna seem too-

Episode duration: 57:58