BS Disclaimers, Invisible Armies, and the Importance of the Words We Choose

1. 0:00 – 1:10

   Introduction

   1. BBBrené Brown0:00

      [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:07

      And I'm Adam Grant.

   3. BBBrené Brown0:09

      And today, we're here to watch Adam be really generous to me. Um, I don't wanna be wrong on this topic today. I do not, I cannot be wrong on this topic today. I am very vested in my rightness.

   4. AGAdam Grant0:26

      Wow. Okay, so you're already appealing to my core values and asking me to violate other values.

   5. BBBrené Brown0:31

      [laughs] You sort that shit out on your own, but I need to be right.

   6. AGAdam Grant0:36

      [laughs]

   7. BBBrené Brown0:36

      You, you, you sort your value hierarchy over there. I'll... You, you do that over there, but we're gonna talk about two insidious Machiavellian communication tools that people use that are my least favorite in the whole world.

   8. AGAdam Grant0:59

      I can't wait.

   9. BBBrené Brown1:00

      [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant1:00

       But I should say, a wise friend once told me, "It's more important to get it right than to be right."

   11. BBBrené Brown1:08

       Yeah, I call bullshit, but okay.

   12. AGAdam Grant1:09

       [laughs]

   13. BBBrené Brown1:09

       So

2. 1:10 – 15:23

   The Invisible Army

   1. BBBrené Brown1:11

      let's start with... So I think we all know this first one. It is... I, I'm guilty of doing it, and I've been on the receiving end of it, and it's hard. It... I, I call it, in my work, The Invisible Army. So in a work context, uh, you're my boss, and I come up to you and I say, "Hey, Adam, we're all e- we're really exhausted. All of us are really tired of the way these priorities are shifting. We're really kind of sick of the pressure on us to do more with less, and we need a break." What's your first instinct there?

   2. AGAdam Grant1:53

      I wanna hear more.

   3. BBBrené Brown1:55

      Okay. W- let me, let me tell you my first instinct. Let's turn this scenario around. You come to me and say, "We're all exhausted. We're tired. We're, we're... The constant reprioritization's killing us. We need a break." I'm gonna wanna look at you and say, "You got a mouse in your pocket?" Like, who's we? I, I, I cannot... I, I... This Invisible Army, we all think, we all believe, we're all wondering. Like, come to me with the I. That's important enough. But for me, the Invisible Army of the people that are backing up your... You know, and even in, in, in personal, in the personal world. "Listen, we're all... We, we... We're all really disappointed by this," or, you know, "We all think you should talk to Dad about this."

   4. AGAdam Grant2:50

      This is so fascinating. This is exactly the kind of communication I teach.

   5. BBBrené Brown2:56

      You teach people to say we?

   6. AGAdam Grant2:58

      Absolutely. It's, I mean, it signals that you're not selfish, that you're thinking about the good of the group.

   7. BBBrené Brown3:04

      No.

   8. AGAdam Grant3:04

      And that, you know, you're, you're not raising something that's idiosyncratic.

   9. BBBrené Brown3:08

      No, it's-

   10. AGAdam Grant3:08

       It's actually relevant to everyone

   11. BBBrené Brown3:10

       ... it's chicken shit.

   12. AGAdam Grant3:12

       [laughs]

   13. BBBrené Brown3:12

       It... I, I, I completely disagree. Unless you're willing to say to me, "Hey, Adam, do you have a second? Um, I sat down and spoke with Sabrina, Jose, and Jack around what's going on, and we kinda came up with some ideas. They were not able to meet with you, and... But they said that I could talk to you about this." I mean, I, I think it's terrible. Like, I, I, I literally, like, unless you have a critter in your pocket-

   14. AGAdam Grant3:43

       [laughs]

   15. BBBrené Brown3:44

       ... I don't ever wanna hear your Invisible Army.

   16. AGAdam Grant3:47

       Okay, I do. I wanna hear it all the time, but I don't, I don't want it to be invisible. So I think what you just outlined is ideal in an environment with high psychological safety. That's, that's the standard I'm aspiring to all the time. Um, and anyone should be able to s- s- speak on behalf of the group, or ideally, everyone is speaking independently for themselves. In environments that lack psychological safety, if you're in a culture of fear, if you're in a culture of blame and shame, um, it's, it's really risky to put yourself out there. And so if I'm the one to come to you and say, "Hey, I've heard a lot of people complaining about this," everyone else is afraid to tell you, that for me, that's an act of courage, right? Because I'm the messenger, and I might get shot, and it's so important that I'm willing to raise it anyway on behalf of the group.

   17. BBBrené Brown4:30

       You did not say we once in your role model here. You said, "I'm coming-"

   18. AGAdam Grant4:33

       No, I'm not role modeling it.

   19. BBBrené Brown4:34

       No, I'm just saying-

   20. AGAdam Grant4:35

       I'm, I'm explaining-

   21. BBBrené Brown4:35

       I'm just saying, you said, "I'm coming to you because here's what I'm hearing, and I think other people are concerned about it, so I wanted to let you know." That is not the Invisible Army.

   22. AGAdam Grant4:46

       Isn't it, though?

   23. BBBrené Brown4:47

       No. I-

   24. AGAdam Grant4:47

       Aren't they less visible?

   25. BBBrené Brown4:48

       No, no, no. That is... No. I think that's very different than you arming yourself with we all believe, we all think. You're saying, "I'm observing this. I wanted to let you know about my observation."

   26. AGAdam Grant5:04

       Oh.

   27. BBBrené Brown5:04

       You're not representing. You're not a... You're not representing a delegation, a fake delegation of fake-ass people, um, because you're, you're not using the I statement. And so-

   28. AGAdam Grant5:17

       That's so interesting.

   29. BBBrené Brown5:19

       Yeah, I think it... I think this is really important, because literally, this Invisible Army, it... And the way it plays out in family dynamics is, you know, my sisters and I talk about this all the time. "Yeah, we all think you're being a real asshole here." Like, "We who?" "I'm not gonna say, 'cause, you know, again, because you're an asshole." No, no. Like, if you think I'm being an asshole, I wanna hear that from you. But again, unless you've got people in your pocket, and if you do, bring them out, and then de-shrink them up to human size, and let's have a real adult conversation. I think the Invisible Army, I think if you're teaching peopleTo have the courage to say, "There's something going on I think you should know about. I can't speak clearly to people's comfort levels about coming to you, but here's something I'm seeing. I think it's getting in the way of the work we're doing, and I wanted to let you know about it," that's really respectful and thoughtful. If you're coming in and leading-

   30. AGAdam Grant6:25

       This is so fascinating.
3. 15:23 – 21:26

   Speaking Up and Pluribus

   1. BBBrené Brown15:23

      scary about starting your own business, and listeners of this show know that when you take on any endeavor, there will be bumps along that road and a lot of what-ifs. But tools like Shopify can help settle those nerves and make things way less intimidating. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names like Rare Beauty and Skims to brands just getting started. Shopify can help you build an online store that matches your brand's style with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. And whether you're uploading new products or trying to improve existing ones, Shopify can help accelerate your efficiency. Their AI tools can help you write product descriptions, page headlines, and even help enhance your product photography. Best yet, Shopify can be your commerce expert with world-class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. It's time to turn those what-ifs into [bell dings] with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com/curiosity. Go to shopify.com/curiosity. That's shopify.com/curiosity. [bell dings]

   2. AGAdam Grant16:45

      Okay. I wanna, I wanna talk about, I, it, I think it sounds like we're gonna talk a lot about language today.

   3. BBBrené Brown16:50

      Yeah.

   4. AGAdam Grant16:50

      Which is great, because you and, you and I are both word nerds.

   5. BBBrené Brown16:53

      Yeah, yeah.

   6. AGAdam Grant16:53

      And I think, I don't think enough people spend enough time choosing their words carefully. Before, before we, we talk more about language, two things that jumped out at me on this. Number one, have you, have, have you been watching Pluribus?

   7. BBBrené Brown17:08

      I can't. I tried. I wanted to. I just... It's so... It, I, I go to bed at night, and I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I, I can't. So, but tell me, tell me what you're seeing and watching. I'm obsessed-

   8. AGAdam Grant17:23

      Well, I'm only-

   9. BBBrené Brown17:23

      ... with the whole concept. [laughs]

   10. AGAdam Grant17:25

       I'm only two episodes in, and I don't wanna spoil it for people who haven't seen it, but-

   11. BBBrené Brown17:29

       Okay

   12. AGAdam Grant17:30

       ... the, the reaction I had watching it and seeing the way that a collective communicates as one gave me the same ick that your "We all believe, and we all think, and we all want" gave me. And I think-

   13. BBBrené Brown17:43

       Oh, God. That's so interesting

   14. AGAdam Grant17:46

       ... I think anybody who wants to understand, like, viscerally why you're so bothered by one claiming to fully represent a whole, like, [laughs] just go watch two episodes of Pluribus. Done.

   15. BBBrené Brown17:58

       Is it... I mean, I heard the acting's amazing. H- is it, it just...

   16. AGAdam Grant18:02

       It's, it's been stunning so far, but-

   17. BBBrené Brown18:05

       Wow, okay.

   18. AGAdam Grant18:07

       More, more to watch.

   19. BBBrené Brown18:07

       Maybe I'll try, maybe I'll try it again. Okay, what's the other thing you wanted to t- like, I love this. I love this pop culture reference.

   20. AGAdam Grant18:13

       Okay. The, this, the other one's the opposite of pop culture, but-I was just thinking about this, you know, this how do you approach speaking up in a low versus high psychological safety climate question that we were talking about. And one of the questions I get asked a lot, uh, I get, I get tons of questions from managers and leaders about, like, should we do an anonymous survey of our people, or should we make the survey identified? And I've always been torn on this, and I'm curious to hear your take because I think an anonymous survey is an Invisible Army of sorts, but I don't think it's the kind you object to.

   21. BBBrené Brown18:51

       No, because I think an anonymous survey is individuals... There's not a re- there's not a representation. There's not a royal we there. Um, so I think-

   22. AGAdam Grant19:05

       Yep

   23. BBBrené Brown19:05

       ... there's, there's a representation, a one-on-one representation of data to person, even if that person is de-identified or anonymous. Um, I, I, I think whenever... I of course, I get this question often as well. The thing that's, the thi- the first thing, because I work from kind of the social work ethic of do no harm first, the first thing that always comes up for me is how anonymous really is your anonymous survey? What's your sample size? How's it being reported? Is it tied to IP address? Um, I would never commit to anonymity if it's not true anonymity, which really is about team size and all kinds of technology stuff. Um, and I think for me, the answer to that question is always what is your intention? You know, what are you trying to... I have really mixed feelings about 360s as well. I, I, there's, I, I've worked with one company-

   24. AGAdam Grant20:04

       Same

   25. BBBrené Brown20:04

       ... out of 30 that does it well. You know?

   26. AGAdam Grant20:07

       Yeah, it's hard.

   27. BBBrené Brown20:08

       Um, yeah, they're hard, and they're flawed, and a flawed, a f- a, a, a 360 that has flawed design, flawed implementation, and flawed analysis can just blow up a team and a person.

   28. AGAdam Grant20:30

       Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've, I've seen it happen. And, you know, the, the survey dilemma is interesting because I think on one level, I, I want, I wanna get to a point where people can say what they really think and put their names on it, but the bigger the organization, the larger the team, the harder that is. And so [laughs] one of the things I've, yeah, I've sometimes, you know, had leaders say, "But, you know, I, I create, I create an environment where, you know, everyone can tell me the truth. My door is always open. Um, you know, I'm, I'm non-threatening. I'm, I'm inclusive." And sometimes I say, "Okay, let's run the test. Ask people to give you direct feedback, and then we're gonna do an anonymous survey." And the larger the gap is between what-

   29. BBBrené Brown21:15

       Uh-huh

   30. AGAdam Grant21:15

       ... people say to your face and what they say under the cover of secrecy, the more of a problem you have with psychological safety. And-
4. 21:26 – 40:59

   ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability?

   1. AGAdam Grant21:26

      to be said for, like, let's let people be invisible, but let's not have one person claim to be in charge of the army.

   2. BBBrené Brown21:34

      I, I think that's ex- I think that's exactly right. The biggest problem with the Invisible Army is the, um, purported representation.

   3. AGAdam Grant21:43

      Yeah.

   4. BBBrené Brown21:43

      And so-

   5. AGAdam Grant21:44

      Yeah

   6. BBBrené Brown21:45

      ... yeah. And I think the other thing that is interesting to me is if... [laughs] I always ask leaders, if their door is open and they're receptive to feedback, then why are they asking me about doing an anonymous survey? I mean, so you, you would know. Um, the other thing is I, I am pro anonymity in any culture where there are not open conversations about power. So that's my litmus test. If you talk openly about power, if you talk openly about identity, if you talk about, you know, being the only anything in a room, if you, if, if those are just kind of normative cultural conversations, then I'm more open to believing that the door is really open. If any conversation about power or equity is off limits, then, you know, I'd wear gloves when I completed the anonymous survey. You know, just, yeah.

   7. AGAdam Grant22:41

      That's a great point.

   8. BBBrené Brown22:44

      Yeah. [laughs] Okay, do you wanna go to the next one? And this, I'm probably more loaded for bear on this one than even the first one.

   9. AGAdam Grant22:51

      [laughs]

   10. BBBrené Brown22:51

       Wait, why are you laughing?

   11. AGAdam Grant22:52

       I, I'm ju- I'm just laughing because you were the one who said a few episodes ago, like, we, we shouldn't try to amplify tension. We should just, you know, share and then see where the tension emerges. And here you are saying, "I am loaded. I wanna be right."

   12. BBBrené Brown23:07

       I, I do wanna be right here because these are, like, these are, the, this one is really tough. So I'll introduce this by saying I call these bullshit disclaimers. I know there are other terms in the, in the research for them, but they're wrong. Um, and then I wanna, I... Let me just give you the first one. Anything that starts with, "Look, I don't mean to be critical, but..." "I don't mean to be shitty, but..." "I hate to be rude, but..."

   13. AGAdam Grant23:37

       That's my least favorite one. Not to be rude, but-

   14. BBBrené Brown23:39

       Yeah

   15. AGAdam Grant23:40

       ... you're about to say something really inappropriate and offensive.

   16. BBBrené Brown23:43

       Right.

   17. AGAdam Grant23:43

       Thank you for giving me a heads-up.

   18. BBBrené Brown23:44

       That's it. So let me translate those for you. I'm gonna be like the translator. When someone says, "I don't mean, I don't mean to be critical, but," what they're saying is I'm getting ready to be very critical, and I do not wanna be held accountable for that behavior. When they say, "Hey, listen, I don't mean to be shitty, Adam, but," they're getting ready to be shitty, but they don't wanna be held accountable for being shitty. That, this is the translation here. Here's, here's the translation ring. Um, look, not to be rude, but translation, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, I'm fixing to be really rude. I do not wanna be held accountable for it.That's what's happening here. Thoughts? These are hedges, soft openings. They're called a lot of things. I call them bullshit, but go ahead.

   19. AGAdam Grant24:32

       I love it. I love it. These, [laughs] these disclaimers, the, the kinds of disclaimers that you're talking about-

   20. BBBrené Brown24:37

       Yes

   21. AGAdam Grant24:37

       ... which are a different kind than the sort I wanna defend.

   22. BBBrené Brown24:40

       Okay, great.

   23. AGAdam Grant24:41

       [laughs] Which is, which is good news, I think. Uh, the kind that you're talking about are... I never thought about it as escaping accountability.

   24. BBBrené Brown24:50

       Oh, 100%, yes.

   25. AGAdam Grant24:51

       When I thought about it, it... But I, I think you're spot on. I, I had a, I had a different way of, of thinking about why those bother me, which is when somebody says, "Not to be rude, but..." I think that they're, they're trying to, they're trying to preempt what they realize is a reasonable reaction and prevent you from having it. And-

   26. BBBrené Brown25:13

       I... Yes.

   27. AGAdam Grant25:14

       And ironically-

   28. BBBrené Brown25:14

       It-

   29. AGAdam Grant25:14

       ... I think it has the opposite effect, right? [laughs] It, it puts your guard up and leaves-

   30. BBBrené Brown25:18

       For sure
5. 40:59 – 46:22

   Responsibility Versus Accountability

   1. BBBrené Brown40:59

      Yes, exactly.

   2. AGAdam Grant40:59

      Do, do... And, and when, when you cut it off and say, "Hey, wait a minute. Like, [laughs] why, why don't you pause and think about this for a second?" You're putting that responsibility back in my hands where it belongs.

   3. BBBrené Brown41:12

      Okay, this is exactly everything.

   4. AGAdam Grant41:16

      [laughs]

   5. BBBrené Brown41:16

      Okay? This is-

   6. AGAdam Grant41:17

      It's something. It's definitely something.

   7. BBBrené Brown41:19

      No, it, it, it's everything. It's... We, we were using the word accountability as, as what both of these communication tools have in common, um, the Invisible Army and, but it's also about responsibility. When you come into my office and say, "I'm observing something that I wanna share with you because I have concerns," then you are taking responsibility for what you're getting ready to lay out on my desk.

   8. AGAdam Grant41:51

      Yes.

   9. BBBrené Brown41:51

      When you, when, when someone says, "Hey, let's pause for a second then. When you say don't be, I don't want you to be offended," I'm wondering if we can, you know, if we can just get ahead of that. I am shifting... How do you think differently about responsibility and accountability? I've never thought about it really before.

   10. AGAdam Grant42:15

       I think responsibility is... Well, okay, I'm just, I'm just thinking about the research on this. Responsibility is a sense that, it's a t- it's a sense of ownership-

   11. BBBrené Brown42:26

       Mm-hmm

   12. AGAdam Grant42:26

       ... that I take over my actions-

   13. BBBrené Brown42:29

       Okay

   14. AGAdam Grant42:29

       ... or over a decision, whereas accountability is me having to justify my actions to you.

   15. BBBrené Brown42:40

       Okay, I'm not tracking. Say it again.

   16. AGAdam Grant42:42

       So responsibility is personal-

   17. BBBrené Brown42:44

       Mm-hmm

   18. AGAdam Grant42:44

       ... and accountability is interpersonal.

   19. BBBrené Brown42:47

       Okay, got it.

   20. AGAdam Grant42:47

       Um-

   21. BBBrené Brown42:47

       Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah

   22. AGAdam Grant42:48

       ... so responsibility is something I can take, but you can hold me accountable.

   23. BBBrené Brown42:52

       Got it. Okay, that's super helpful. Can you s-

   24. AGAdam Grant42:54

       I have to, I have to justify, explain, and answer to you, as opposed to when I'm responsible, I'm answering to myself.

   25. BBBrené Brown43:02

       God, then why don't we talk about radical responsibility instead of radical accountability?

   26. AGAdam Grant43:06

       Because we don't trust people to uphold their commitments to themselves. We think that they need to be held accountable by others.

   27. BBBrené Brown43:16

       So w-

   28. AGAdam Grant43:16

       I don't think that, but a lot of people think that.

   29. BBBrené Brown43:18

       Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. It's like a whole nother podcast, I think. Um-

   30. AGAdam Grant43:23

       It might be.
6. 46:22 – 1:01:55

   Judgment Based on Gender and Identity

   1. BBBrené Brown46:22

      I will hold you accountable for it, and your disclaimer is not a get out of jerk f- you know, free card.

   2. AGAdam Grant46:30

      This is a, this is a big aha moment for me, because this clarifies why I like another flavor of disclaimer and hedge. The kind that I like are the opposite of making excuses. They are... I love disclaimers and hedges that show interpersonal sensitivity, as opposed to showing a lack of sensitivity and a lack of concern-

   3. BBBrené Brown46:56

      That's right

   4. AGAdam Grant46:56

      ... and care for others. So can I, can I walk you through some examples of the ones that I find myself advising?

   5. BBBrené Brown47:02

      I am on the edge of my chair with bated breath, and I'm a little nervous. Go ahead.

   6. AGAdam Grant47:09

      Okay. Brené, I might be wrong, but here's a thought. Brené, I think this might be true, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? I love those. Do you wanna react, or do you want me to tell you why the science has taught me to love them first?

   7. BBBrené Brown47:37

      Oh, you could tell me. I, I'm, I'm torn, I'm mixed, but I wanna hear about the science, and I'm, I, I wanna hear about the science, and then I'll walk through it with you. Go ahead.

   8. AGAdam Grant47:47

      Okay.

   9. BBBrené Brown47:47

      Tell me about the science.

   10. AGAdam Grant47:48

       All right, so the-

   11. BBBrené Brown47:49

       I'm curious. I'm very curious.

   12. AGAdam Grant47:51

       [laughs] Good. Good. Okay, so there's, there's a solid body of evidence showing that if we are interdependent, if we're collaborating, if we're playing basketball as opposed to doing gymnastics, to, to use one of our new, our new favorite analogies, that you care as much about whether I'm interested in your opinion as you do about whether my opinions are right, and you're, you're vetting me on, on care, not just competence. And in those situations, it's really important for me to show that I'm, I'm willing to consider your view, that I'm not just locked into my view. Um, I, I have to balance assertiveness and openness. So Alison Fragale calls this the power of powerless speech, and she finds that when, when people are evaluating a potential teammate, and I imagine this is true also when they're looking at a, a possible partner on, on a first date, uh, that-They l- they look at these disclaimers and hedges and think, "Okay, this person is not gonna be a bull in a China shop. They're not gonna dominate every decision. They're actually gonna be, you know, receptive to what I have to say." And the, the research I've read on this in the workplace suggests that if your boss is easily threatened, it's better to frame your suggestion as a question. Like, "Here's an idea. What do you think of this?" As opposed to, "Here's an idea. You should adopt this." And if you wanna influence someone who has more power than you, instead of just s- telling them what you're gonna do, it's more effective to seek their advice and say, "Hey, you know, I'm, I'm kinda torn. What direction would you recommend?" And I think I find that really compelling, and there's, I think, a bunch of evidence suggesting that unfortunately we live in a world where these strategies are especially important for women, uh, because women are more likely to threaten male audiences in particular, and using so-called weak language is actually a source of surprising strength, which we can go into more, but I have said enough things.

   13. BBBrené Brown50:01

       Well, what's at top of mind right now for me is fuck that.

   14. AGAdam Grant50:06

       [laughs] Rightfully so. That's why I said, "Unfortunately."

   15. BBBrené Brown50:09

       Um, yeah. That unfortunately doesn't cover it, but here, here is where... Here is where I get worried. Well, first of all, let me just say this, for the record, as my partner and collaborator in this podcast. I am not gonna do that. I, I, I am, I am... N- zero chance am I gonna do that-

   16. AGAdam Grant50:40

       [laughs]

   17. BBBrené Brown50:42

       ... if it does not accurately reflect-

   18. AGAdam Grant50:47

       Yes

   19. BBBrené Brown50:47

       ... my genuine sentiment.

   20. AGAdam Grant50:50

       Yes.

   21. BBBrené Brown50:50

       I, I-

   22. AGAdam Grant50:50

       Endorse

   23. BBBrené Brown50:51

       ... other- otherwise, you know, this is, like, the gauntlet of to- this is the gauntlet of bullshit masculinity, is that if I'm direct, I'm an aggressive bitch, and if-

   24. AGAdam Grant51:05

       Yep

   25. BBBrené Brown51:05

       ... I hedge and use disclaimers, then I'm wishy-washy and lack executive presence. Like, so I'm gonna pick the one that makes me, enables me to sleep at night. And so, a- and this, I'm like, I'm really having to stay in my skin. I'm, I'm working really hard to not lose my mind right now, but it's not, it would not be unlike me, and I think you could t- you could, you know, starting a business together with a partner like you and I have done, which a podcast is a business, is not easy, and we've had really hard talks, really hard rumbles. We've talked about having to do repair with each other. It's not gonna be unusual for me to genuinely say to you, "I'm not sure if this is a, the best idea that I've ever had or the worst thing I've ever thought, and that I'm scared. I'm not even sure what's driving it, but here's what I'm wondering if we should consider doing." That, that, I'm gonna say that to you, because it genuinely reflects where I am. Um, but the days of me contorting myself into a hedgy little disclaimer, "Well, I have an idea, and I'm wondering if you think it's a good idea, because it would be so cute if you thought it was a good idea", fuck that.

   26. AGAdam Grant52:32

       [laughs]

   27. BBBrené Brown52:32

       I'm not doing that. And-

   28. AGAdam Grant52:34

       Hell no.

   29. BBBrené Brown52:35

       Yeah. And-

   30. AGAdam Grant52:35

       I don't, I don't ever wanna hear that from anyone.
7. 1:01:55 – 1:08:48

   Takeaways From Today’s Episode

   1. BBBrené Brown1:01:55

      but it's not a living wage kind of tip. And, but a, a regular normal tip would be too much, 'cause there is a small percentage included. So he said, "If you're dri- if you're driving with one of our drivers in this driving service, this is really helpful." I was like, "Man, thanks. That's so helpful."

   2. AGAdam Grant1:02:13

      [laughs] It would have never occurred to me to go to the source and just ask. But it's, [laughs] it's almost like asking for directions as a, as a man-

   3. BBBrené Brown1:02:20

      [laughs]

   4. AGAdam Grant1:02:20

      ... driving. [laughs] Like, no, no, I sh- I should just know. I, I should be able to figure it out. And what I would do instead, if I couldn't, is I ask somebody else who's taken the car service. But I don't-

   5. BBBrené Brown1:02:30

      Yeah

   6. AGAdam Grant1:02:30

      ... go directly to the driver, and I loved how you did that. Now, we're, we're, we're probably at time here, so maybe moving toward wrap-up.

   7. BBBrené Brown1:02:38

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. AGAdam Grant1:02:40

      Uh, so t- two, two high level... I don't know how high level these are, actually. Two, two reactions, just stepping back a little bit. One is, I, I think my big worry around people just objecting across the board to disclaimers is, you know, I hear a lot of people just pounce on so-called weak language, and they say, "You gotta edit all the disclaimers and hedges out of your comments in meetings, out of your speeches, out of the way that you talk to your partner." And I think that's a mistake. I don't think we should be judging language as strong or weak. I think what we should be conveying is that language should be clear, and it should be caring, ideally. And Alison Fragale's book, Likeable Badass, is such a good encapsulation of how to do that effectively, and I think you actually modeled some of what she recommends in the book [laughs] in the way that you asked-

   9. BBBrené Brown1:03:36

      Mm-hmm

   10. AGAdam Grant1:03:36

       ... for your raise. So that was, that was my first reaction. The other, the other thing that I'm just left thinking about is I think we... Hmm, no, maybe not.

   11. BBBrené Brown1:03:53

       Oh, I love this. I love your thinking in real time. It's like down-

   12. AGAdam Grant1:03:56

       [laughs]

   13. BBBrené Brown1:03:56

       ... downloading, downloading learnings right now.

   14. AGAdam Grant1:03:59

       Buffering. It's buffering.

   15. BBBrené Brown1:04:01

       I love it.

   16. AGAdam Grant1:04:01

       Uh, the little, the little wheel is spinning, and I changed my mind-

   17. BBBrené Brown1:04:03

       But I love it

   18. AGAdam Grant1:04:04

       ... about where I was gonna land. But no, I'm just, I'm just going back to the, to the beginning where you talked about invisible armies and bullshit disclaimers. And I think striving to make our armies as visible as possible and making sure our disla- our disclaimers are not bullshit, but they're heartfelt, is something we can check before we use them, as opposed to having this-

   19. BBBrené Brown1:04:27

       Yeah

   20. AGAdam Grant1:04:27

       ... like, you, you, you, you can't ever have an invisible army. You can't ever have a disclaimer. What I took, what I took out of this conversation is how nuanced that is and how there, there's a time and a place for, for each of those, and there are also ways in which they can be used manipulatively and counterproductively.

   21. BBBrené Brown1:04:45

       I think that's a, I think that's a... I think that represents my takeaways. I, I really had some big takeaways from our conversation today. Um, personal takeaway for me that was hard is how easily I get hooked when people do not take responsibility for the language they use and it, the impact it has on other people. The second one is how frustrated I get when I have to do the lift of holding people accountable for not taking responsibility, [laughs] 'cause there's a theme here. Three, um, I think a hedge, a disclaimer, representation of other people's opinions, I'm not gonna call them an invisible army because I have such a negative connotation around that, but just the representation of what you're seeing in other people. I think for me, the bottom line is care, thoughtfulness, and is it aligned with how you really feel? You can never make something effective that's manipulative and not aligned with really, I think, what you're sensing or feeling. I think that's very, very difficult. Because I think above all else, no matter what we're hearing, we are doing an authenticity check on people all the time. And so... And I just think the emotional baggage from a lot of the work that women have to do about really often making people feel good about their own mediocrity while making ourselves small is, kills us, and so, literally and spiritually and morally and every other way. So I think that's, that was a big learning. I loved the conversation. I, I appreciate it. And I don't always love it when you pump the brakes, um, but I did not find myself flying through the windshield on this one. [laughs] I did, I, I-

   22. AGAdam Grant1:07:07

       [laughs]

   23. BBBrené Brown1:07:07

       It was more of that thing that your mom and dad did when you were little and you were riding in the front seat where they just kinda put their arm out, um, on the, on the brake pump. I, I do think my own argument would say it's not an all or nothing. It's about alignment and nuance and care. And I just wanna say, for, for people listening, don't think that this came easy to me, if I have the right words. I practice every hard conversation I'm gonna have with someone with a coach. I, you know, I've been working on this in a lot of different ways, therapy, coaching, practice, discipline, for 20 years. And so the careful use of language is, it's a practice. Would you agree?

   24. AGAdam Grant1:07:52

       I didn't even realize I, I didn't even realize I pumped on the brakes.

   25. BBBrené Brown1:07:56

       Yeah, because I mean, the name-

   26. AGAdam Grant1:07:58

       So interesting

   27. BBBrené Brown1:07:58

       ... yeah, because of the name of this, this, this sub chapter in Strong Ground is Beware of Invisible Armies and Bullshit Disclaimers. Like, it is, it's, it's pretty sweeping.

   28. AGAdam Grant1:08:11

       Well, I don't think it's sweeping at all. I think that, I think the invisible modifier, we clarified what-

   29. BBBrené Brown1:08:18

       Yes, that's true

   30. AGAdam Grant1:08:18

       ... acceptable versus unacceptable invisibility is, right?

Episode duration: 1:08:49