The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantResisting Influence in an Over-Influenced World | The Curiosity Shop
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
40 min read · 7,719 words- 0:00 – 1:23
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, Adam
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené
- BBBrené Brown
How are you?
- AGAdam Grant
I'm good. How are you?
- BBBrené Brown
Good. Are you gearing up for your book tour?
- AGAdam Grant
I am, whether I like it or not.
- BBBrené Brown
I'm excited for you. Um, more to come on that, y'all. I had this weird idea for a podcast topic. Adam was like, "Oh my God, I love this." It has gone from funny in my mind to I am enraged. [laughs] So-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I just-
- BBBrené Brown
How-
- AGAdam Grant
I just want you to know you brought this on yourself.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I, I did
- AGAdam Grant
... I contributed nothing to the rage.
- BBBrené Brown
No, you did.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
You did. You have no idea how many conversations that you and I have had about this that you were not a part of.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know you could have conversations with me without me.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, you need to meet my husband.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Like, he'll say, "You seem weird." I'm like, "No, we're fine. It's just it was a difficult fight, but I'm glad we reconciled-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... and I'm glad that you agreed with me." And he's like, "Do I need to be read in or can we just move forward?" And I was like, "No, I think we're good." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
There is, there is so much more going on in your head than mine.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah, no, for sure. [upbeat music]
- 1:23 – 2:50
Cold Water Hair Rinses and 17 Magazine
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So here's how this podcast started, y'all. I tell Adam that I saw a funny meme on Instagram that said, "Am I the only one that's still, like, rinsing my hair with cold water to close the cuticles of my hair and make it shinier?" Because I read that in 1983 in Seventeen magazine.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
And I, I was, I told Adam that I thought it was so funny because I still do that because I read the same thing in Seventeen magazine.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I don't do that, and I feel like-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... hair is going better for you than it has for me. So maybe I missed the boat here.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] No, it's, it's like I, I so, so I, I, I called Adam and I said, "I wanna do a podcast on why we're so susceptible to tricks and tips that seem easy and hackable and doable," and I have held onto to that for, let me just do the math in my head, okay, 40 years. Like, there's other things I read in Young Miss and Seventeen magazine when I was in middle school and high school that I am immovable on. Thoughts?
- 2:50 – 6:10
"Made to Stick" and the SUCCESS Principles
- AGAdam Grant
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is did you ever read Made to Stick by the Heath brothers?
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, it's-
- BBBrené Brown
Tell me about it
- AGAdam Grant
... I think, I think it's one of the best evidence-based books ever written on teaching communication, and it's, it's all about how ideas become memorable and why they lodge in our brains and we don't let them go. And they, they boiled a lot of the research down to six principles, um, which they, I think spelled out as success with one S at the end. Uh, so if I remember correctly-
- BBBrené Brown
I love that
- AGAdam Grant
... they are, they are simple, unexpected, concrete, credible, emotion, and story.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God. That's so good. Say it again.
- AGAdam Grant
So simple, unexpected, concrete, credible, emotion, story.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
You don't have to check all those boxes obviously, but if, I, I'm just thinking back to what you read in Seventeen, maybe at the time you saw it as a highly credible source. I don't know, maybe less now.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, Jane Modine was on the front of it. She was a supermodel of the late '70s. I mean, who is, who am, who would, who is a young girl, fifth generation Texan, who would I be to question a magazine-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... that had Jane Modine on the front and an entire spread of Noxzema and, you know, and all the shit that we used that, like, probably, I don't even know what. Okay, so this is interesting about ideas that stick because it started as what I thought would be a funny podcast, and then it turned into a l- I, I, I cried for two hours over the weekend when I was thinking about it, and I'm gonna tell you why. Stay with me. When my sisters and I were caregiving for my mom, and I think we've talked about this before, my Instagram feed became flooded with, you know... A- and you have to remember that, like, Ashley and Barrett and I were caregiving for my mom, but my mom and I had done the caregiving for my grandmother, both 77 years at onset, both devastating. So, and you know, and the thing you're thinking about is of course you're thinking about caring for your mom, but you're also thinking like, "Shit, am I on a clock? Am I on a dementia clock?" And so my feed became full of these advertisements and influencers saying things like, "Are you worri- are you a caregiver for dementia, a, a dementia parent? And here's what you can do." And I remember I bought a couple of things, and I threw my phone a couple times. And so I, I know it seems like a leap from Seventeen magazine and how to get shiny hair, but one of the things that this brought me to was an article that I read 20 years ago. It's, it was a, it's, it was a peer-reviewed article- Um, by, are you familiar with Robert Cialdini, the persuasion person?
- 6:10 – 10:13
Robert Cialdini and "Dispelling the Illusion of Invulnerability"
- AGAdam Grant
Bob Cialdini is one of the reasons that I became a psychologist.
- BBBrené Brown
What the frick?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yeah, I, when... Okay, so-
- BBBrené Brown
What the frick?
- AGAdam Grant
Quick backstory. First semester of freshman year of college, his book Influence is assigned both for my Psych 1 class and also for my writing seminar on social influence. I found it so fascinating, I read it for both classes. Then I called home [laughs] and told my family they needed to read it, and when I got to grad school, I had an assignment to interview a scholar I admired and seek their career advice, and I cold emailed Bob, and he responded and hopped on the phone right away, and he's sort of been a mentor from afar for nearly a quarter century since then.
- BBBrené Brown
You and I have a-
- AGAdam Grant
So I'd never heard of him. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You and I have such weird synchronicity and kismet sometimes, don't, don't you? Like, you'll say something like, "Man, this study, I just saw it," I'm like, "Uh, I was in her doctoral cohort."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. It's like, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Exactly.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I'm a, I'm a subject in that study. Um, okay, so, so here's what's interesting, and I'm so, I'm so excited to talk about this with you. Um, let me get my notes all ready, 'cause I think this is... So Brad Sagarin. Do you know Brad Sagarin? Do you know all these people?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I know the name. I don't know him.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, okay. So they wrote an article, and you'll know why I was interested in it, because the title of the article was Dispelling the Illusion of Invulnerability. And I'm gonna just give you like a, uh, a simple, s- give listeners and watchers a, a simpler rendition of the study. They, what they found was in order to reduce our susceptibility to misinformation, you need to both believe that you are vulnerable to it, and then you have to have skills to deconstruct it. Neither of those alone is enough. So one, you have to admit that you're susceptible, and two, you have to be able to have some, some, some literacy around deconstructing what you hear. Does that make sense to you?
- AGAdam Grant
It's so interesting, because, you know, when you were, when you were talking about the parallel between what you went through with, with your mom, which I'm so sorry for, by the way.
- BBBrené Brown
Thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Um, it's brutal. And the connection between that and Seventeen magazine, like, oh, well, what those two situations have in common is they're preying on your fears.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And, and you are in a vulnerable emotional state, whether it's worrying about your, your mom and your future or whether you're worrying [laughs] about your hair and whether, unlike me, you're gonna keep it.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And [laughs] and, and so I think that, like nobody wants to feel vulnerable in those situations.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And so a lot of times we get duped because we don't even realize we're susceptible, and so what you just said I think captured, like it, it- it's so important to recognize, like I am vulnerable right now. Like I am exactly the kind of person they're trying to target.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And the v- but it feels like admitting weakness even though it enables us to be stronger.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. So it's so interesting. It's... This is why, like, uh, uh, like my voice is shaking. I get so effing mad. Um, this is why it's so upsetting to me, because it's so hard to acknowledge
- 10:13 – 15:07
Why Vulnerable Moments Make Us Easy Targets
- BBBrené Brown
our vulnerability in a space where we're vulnerable. Like if I'm caregiving for my mom, and everybody that is watching or listening who is, who is caregiving, not just for someone with dementia, but potentially any, you know, end of life disease, like you're changing diapers. Like you are, you are, this is, this is the, the... This is like humanity at a level that you did not know you could do. Like, you are, you are standing in a room crying, taking a deep breath out of earshot and eyesight of the person you're helping, and you're saying to yourself, "You can fucking do this. Do not be a coward. You can do this." You know? It, it is like, it is torturous. And so you are so vulnerable that in the moment when the ad slips by on Instagram, it's almost impossible to say, "Oh, I'm vulnerable here," because if you let yourself be vulnerable, you can't get out of bed in the morning.
- AGAdam Grant
Right.
- BBBrené Brown
Do you know, do you know what I'm saying?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. And you're almost undermining the, the self-talk that you were just doing to say-
- BBBrené Brown
Exactly
- AGAdam Grant
... "Toughen up. You can do this."
- BBBrené Brown
You can do this. I remember this moment where my grandmother was in San Antonio, and my mom and I were trying to figure out, and she was in this terrible, just, just an indictment of the healthcare system in the US. She was in this, in terrible situation where she had been a beauty operator her whole life, you know, a hair stylist. Her husband was a teamster and a forklift driver in a brewery. Pearl, Pearl Beer. Doesn't get more Texas San Antonio than that. Um, yet they weren't, they had enough income that they couldn't get help and not enough income to pay for, you know, a- Assisted living or, you know, anything like that. They were in that place, and we were trying to figure it out, and she was at home at the time, which was not tenable 'cause she was a smoker. Um, this is my grandmother who I think would have liked your grandmother, the maximalist.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, you know? Yeah. And she was a smoker, so we knew she, we couldn't keep her at home long because she was gonna burn down the house. Like, there would be cigarettes lit all over the place when I came home falling out of ashtrays. And I was like, "I need to bathe her."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
And I, I was 21, you know? And I was like, "Oh, my God." I, I, like, "No." You know? And so the, the, the, the self-talk and the get tough, and probably maybe as an older person I understand the self-talk is, like, be vulnerable and it's okay, but that's not the self-talk that's ever worked for me. So I think you're right that-
- AGAdam Grant
Ironically. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no, I, I... [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
It should. If it works for anyone, it should be you, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
No. This is my me search. Leave my me search alone.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, so, okay, so what is interesting is in this study that ... Am I pronouncing Cialdini?
- AGAdam Grant
Cialdini, yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Bob Cialdini? Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
And Sagarin did together, the takeaway is for every one of us to say, "I'm not outside the reach of persuasion. I have to learn to examine what's persuading me."
- AGAdam Grant
So good.
- BBBrené Brown
Does that make sense?
- AGAdam Grant
Because then you can figure out your vulnerabilities.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
This, this makes so much sense coming from Bob and his team too because, like, his work on influence and persuasion has been picked up by marketers and salespeople and it, like, tons of people who are trying to, in some cases, like, exercise influence and in other cases manipulate. And Bob is always the one to raise his hand and say, "I didn't want this to be used as a weapon. I actually started studying this for self-defense," because I remember him, him saying like, "All of my life, I have been the one who gets taken advantage of, and I realized I needed to figure out what are the principles that people are using so that I can put my guard up." But I love this extra layer that you're bringing in of let me figure out where, where I am vulnerable.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So-
- AGAdam Grant
What is it that, that appeals to me?
- BBBrené Brown
I... So there's... I could go in a thousand directions, and we could both go in the direction of weaponizing work, 'cause I think, uh, my work's been weaponized, your work has been weaponized, anyone that does work has been weaponized. I mean, for God's sake, the, I mean, specifically for God's sake, the Bible's weaponized all the time. So it's like you can weaponize anything, right? One of the things where I got thinking about my own experience as a caregiver, but then I... Do you know Jessica Nurick,
- 15:07 – 19:27
Deconstructing a "Toxic Products for Newborns" Video
- BBBrené Brown
Dr. Jessica Nurick? She's a PhD. Um, she, I think she also has a master's in nursing. She's a research... And she, she kind of... What it, what is it called when you show a video and then you're watching the video, and then you comment on it on Instagram? Say like a play-by-play of videos? Yeah. She-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, a reaction video?
- BBBrené Brown
Do you know her? A reaction video, yes. She does these.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know her, no.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, you should look her up. She's great. Um, and she... So I, so yesterday I saw this video from her, and there's a guy, and he's standing in an aisle of a store, and he says, "Toxic products for newborns that I'd never allow in my house as a naturop- as a naturopathic doctor." And then Jessica s- stops, Dr. Nurick, stops it right after he says that. So all he's said so far is, like, he points behind him on the shelves, "Toxic products for newborns that I'd never let in my house as a naturopathic doctor." And then Dr. Nurick stops and says these things. One, vulnerable population, parents of newborns.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
Two, fear-based hook. Like, is there anything more fear-based than toxic products for newborns? And then three, she says, "An appeal to authority versus any actual evidence."
- AGAdam Grant
That's such a great deconstruction of, of a, of the kind of message that too many people are susceptible to.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I want you to-
- AGAdam Grant
Including us.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I mean, so, so, like, I've got shaky leggy. That's what we call it in my family 'cause 50% of my family's got shaky leggy, and the other 50 doesn't. I'm usually the 50 that doesn't have shaky leggy, and I'm like, "Hey, collection of sh- shaky leggy people, you're levitating the table here."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but I've got it right now 'cause I'm all hyped up. Um.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
So let me, let me walk you through this like a transformer. Fear-based hook. Toxic products for newborns. Immediately, my capacity vul- for vulnerability is corroded because I'm in fear now, so I'm, I'm starting to armor up. "Oh my God, I've got a newborn. Am I giving my baby something poisonous?" Appeal to authority. "Oh my God, he's a doctor of some sort. He, he would know. Oh, oh my God, he's standing in a store where I shop." It's like this is where, this is where it's the grifting is so effing- ... powerful because if you combine my vulnerability of my situation and circumstance with a fear-based hook and an appeal to authority, there's nothing left in me to look for evidence. Do you, are you tracking what I'm saying or am I nuts?
- AGAdam Grant
No, I think this is, this is powerful. And, you know, to link it to something you said earlier, I think that if, like... Okay, so I guess I'm imagining a different approach to opening up Instagram, starting with, okay, I recognize that I'm vulnerable to certain fears, and I need to know what those fears are. And then when somebody appeals to one, instead of immediately responding to the emotion, just pausing to ask, "What is this person trying to sell me?"
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
"What are they trying to persuade me of?"
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Okay. Yes. Um, it's so... I have this sentence that I wrote down, "A confident recommendation is not the same thing as real evidence."
- 19:27 – 22:50
Expert Opinion vs. Real Evidence
- BBBrené Brown
Like-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] I think about this all the time
- BBBrené Brown
... do you... Okay, say more. Say more.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, you know, I-
- BBBrené Brown
I have to have, I have to have some iced tea, baby.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
The Texan in me is thirsty.
- AGAdam Grant
All right, so I think where it, where it jumps out at me immediately is seven out of 10 doctors recommend. I, I don't care what seven out of 10 doctors recommend. I wanna know what seven of the 10 studies showed.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Those, those are two very different questions, and-
- BBBrené Brown
Two different things
- AGAdam Grant
... I mean, th- very different. And in, like, in evidence-based medicine, and now evidence-based management too, there's a, there's a hierarchy of levels of evidence, and at the very bottom of the hierarchy is expert professional opinion. And at the very top would be a meta-analysis, a study of studies of good randomized controlled trials with double-blind ps- placebos. And we don't always get that, but we should be pushing for better evidence than, "Here's the, the opinion of a supposedly trustworthy professional. You should defer to it."
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, check the authority. I gotta tell you, I mean, this makes me really nervous about the Trump administration taking over NIH. Like-
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, [laughs] wait, I'm, I'm sorry, are you saying that RFK and his team are not medical experts, and that they're not consulting the best available rigorous evidence? How could this be?
- BBBrené Brown
But this is... But, I mean, when I was prepping for this, just my innocent journey from Seventeen and Young Miss magazine to this cluster-effery, all I could think about is this is what's working right now, not just in wellness grifting on Instagram, but politically it's-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... vulnerable population, you know, auth- author- fear-based hooking, and appeal to an authority that's really not credible. And the, the other thing that I think is interesting is this study, um, that, it, it, this is, it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a small sample. What it talks about is that participants could see ads as problematic and still be hurt by them, that recognizing what's happening and being protected from it are not the same thing.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, uh-oh. Well, that's not helpful [laughs] at all.
- BBBrené Brown
But, but-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... but, but th- but, but think about this for a second. What do, what do you make of that, um, that recognizing what's happening and being protected-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... by it are not the same thing?
- 22:50 – 23:47
The Sleeper Effect: Forgetting the Source
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, it reminds me of a long history of research in social psychology on the sleeper effect-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... where people are presented with information, and they, they don't necessarily trust it or believe it. And then you look at what happens over time, and very often people forget the source, and they hang on to the message.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And if we go back to the, the Heath brothers principles from earlier, if it's a simple, unexpected message, if it's concrete, and it's emotional, and there's a good story behind it, if you forget the source, you have lost the, like, [laughs] the flashing, like, neon sign that says, "Hey, this is not credible," and you're just hanging on to the information, then that information that didn't sway you initially can rebound and now influence you over time.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And [laughs] there's a group of psychologists that, that I thought had a great, th- well, there's a group of psychologists that I thought
- 23:47 – 25:10
"May the Source Be With You"
- AGAdam Grant
had a great takeaway on this. They said, like, "Ultimately, may the source be with you."
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
That's good.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I mean, as a Star Wars nerd, I, I love that. But I, I think it's right. I think that we, like, when we put our guard up, we, we forget, "Okay, if I'm gonna let any of this information into my head, I need to hang on to the source, too." I need to think about, is this a credible source or not? And then when I retrieve that information later, it needs to be linked to the source. I have to remember where I saw it. I have to remember who posted it. I have to ask myself, do I trust this person? And I think that most of our, our message processing is kind of, like, okay, the source fades into the background. The information or the recommendation fa- sort of stands out in the foreground, and that's what ends up in our memory. And I wonder if that's a little bit of a way out of this trap, is to say, okay, like, if we're, if we're building a model of how to resist, um, un- unwanted influence or being convinced of things that we shouldn't. Know your vulnerabilities. That's kind of phase one. Phase two is, [laughs] when you say, "Okay, this is a f- fear-based appeal. This is coming from an authority that I don't think is credible," you need to attach, you need to link the appeal to the source.
- 25:10 – 27:29
Step 1: Own Your Vulnerability
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Can I, can I riff on your, can I riff on your process a little bit?
- AGAdam Grant
Please do.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, so one, recognize and own your vulnerability. Like, there's no shame in being vulnerable to persuasion because, I mean, our next episode's gonna be on your new book, Vibe, and I don't think without mirror neurons and if we, if someone was completely immune to persuasion, I don't know if we could ever connect and vibe in real ways. So I think, I think the same thing that delivers our susceptibility to persuasion also devel- delivers our capacity for connection and empathy and-
- AGAdam Grant
Wow
- BBBrené Brown
... is it, do you think that's true?
- AGAdam Grant
That's so interesting. I never thought about that. But you're right. One of the, I mean, one of the core markers of a healthy relationship and a meaningful a- interaction is we're both open to being persuaded by each other.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. I, I, I just read that in Vibe.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I'd never, I'd never put those pieces together. I, that's an aha moment for me, to say, like, we, we cannot have, we cannot communicate effectively unless we both accept, like, I'm willing to be influenced by you, and-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... you are willing to be influenced by me.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, and that's how I think, that's how you... Again, next episode's on Vibe. Fricking love that book. Uh, I, I love when you apply words and linguistics and taxonomies to things that happen that y- I just love it, so we can repeat it and do more of the good stuff and less of the not, of the shitty stuff. Um, but so I think the first thing-
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you
- BBBrené Brown
... is, yeah, it's just good. It's just good. It's just good. Like, yeah, it's just a good book. You're, you're so terrible taking a compliment, but anyway, um, [laughs] you-
- AGAdam Grant
I'm just sitting here saying thank you
- BBBrené Brown
I know. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you.
- BBBrené Brown
I know.
- AGAdam Grant
I appreciate that.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. Um, but so the first thing is understand that the best of us, what's, what's the best of us and the most, the hardest of us is our susceptibility to persuasion. It makes us human. So one is to acknowledge the, the, that we are influenceable.
- 27:29 – 29:04
Step 2: Build Persuasion Literacy
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Number two, I, this is my riff on what your model is. Number two is get some, get some persuasion literacy. Be able to recognize the appeal to authority. Recognize the, um, the appeal to, it, does the appeal to authority replace evidence? Where is the evidence? Um, one of the, I did this really quick lit review, and there's not a lot of good literature unless you know some, because it's relatively new, about kinda grifting, wellness grifting on social, where 90% of the information shared by influencers is everything this can do for you. None of the caveats, none of the dangers, none of the specific population, you know, no studies. So one, know, know you're vulnerable and know that's the best of us and the hardest part of us. Two, deconstruct with some advertising literacy. Is that true?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah, that's very good. And you're gonna add a third.
- BBBrené Brown
Well, I wanna go to your third. I'm just squeezing my second in on the deconstruction and the advertising-
- AGAdam Grant
No, I think the-
- BBBrené Brown
... literacy.
- AGAdam Grant
I think the second is really good, and I think Cialdini's book, Influence, is a crash course in a lot of the ways that advertisers might be trying to manipulate you. I also thought Maria Konnikova in The Confidence Game-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yes
- AGAdam Grant
... where she studied con artists-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... mapped that out really well.
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh, we'll put those books in the notes.
- 29:04 – 31:46
Step 3: Chase the Message Back to the Source
- BBBrené Brown
Um, and then the third one you said is may the source be with you.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So when, so when you remember something you should be buying, doing, taking, practicing, chase it back down to the source.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Is that right?
- AGAdam Grant
Remember.
- BBBrené Brown
How would you s-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Who shared it? Who said it? You know, [laughs] like, don't just hang on to the what, link it to the who. And I think, this is, this is so interesting. I, I've never really thought about this before, but tr- try me o- well, hear me out on this and tell me if it's a terrible idea. Uh, like, it drives me crazy when people say, "Well, they've shown," or, "They've proven." I'm like, who? Who's they? Like-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... are you saying scientists? Researchers? Like, that, whenever you hear an ambiguous source or whenever you see a message from somebody that you're not 100% sure that you trust on that topic, the immediate question should be, who are they? Do they have a track record of communicating reliable information on this issue?
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. I wanna get into who are they? May the source be with you. And I want to... One of the things that I found kind of prepping for today that I thought was interesting is one quick way of yes or no, do you agree with me or not? Or l- let's push on, push on this for a little bit. Let's, let's rumble on this for a little bit. Does the source have anything to financially gain from me believing them?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Ulterior motive.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. You know, if I... You know, do you have any vulnerabilities to these things? I, I, I make up that you don't because of your... I make up that you don't.
- AGAdam Grant
Of course I do. I think everyone does, and I think if I, if I thought I didn't, I would be in danger of the Dunning-Kruger effect applied to persuasion-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... where the more, the more overconfident I am about my invulnerability, the more vulnerable I actually am.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
So no, I, I, I think, like I, I think I have a really strong reflex to say appeal to fear, [laughs] not a credible source-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... where is the actual evidence? And so, but I, but I think I have domains where I'm very susceptible, and I, I actually experienced one recently around AI. Um-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God. Do you wanna talk about it?
- 31:46 – 37:16
AI Doomsday Fears and Vested Interests
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I mean-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... the, you know, the, we, we saw a wave of, of comments over the past few weeks that like, you know, we're much closer to recursive self-improvement than we thought, and like maybe AI could kill us all.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
And I thought that that claim was preposterous, but then I see posts that, [laughs] saying from sources I consider to be at the very forefront of like pioneering work in AI saying, you know, a, a swarm of AI agents could take over the internet. I start to think about hacking, and I think, "Okay, like what are we gonna do? Do we need bottled water?" [laughs] Like, "Do we need a backup internet source?" And-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, you go prepper.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I start to prepare-
- BBBrené Brown
I go prepper too
- AGAdam Grant
... because I don't-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I'm like, "No, we don't need to be in bunkers, but we do need to be ready." And it would be so stupid, even if this is a low probability event, it's so high severity that I might as well just be, like I might as well be ready. And I look back at that and I think, "Okay, to your point, what vested interest do people have in spreading those messages, in convincing you that their technology is so powerful it could take over the entire internet?"
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, I have an answer.
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Um, I'm wondering... I don't know either. Like, I am both filling my bathtub with water and critically fighting the messaging [laughs] at the same time. I'm hedging. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
But I don't, I-
- AGAdam Grant
That makes sense though
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, I don't trust, I don't trust any of these people, and I think what's driving, what's driving the lack of regulation is greed and, um, greed and competition.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? And probably p- competition mainly I would guess with China and other people who have frontier models that are not being slowed down by ethics or testing. Um, and so I think it's greed and, and competition. But I'm wondering if now they're wanting to slow down because they are hedging on de-leveraging in an AI bubble.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Gosh. You know?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I-
- BBBrené Brown
I just don't, I just don't trust these folks at all. So when they say it's gonna help us, I don't trust it. When they say it's gonna kill us, I don't trust them. You know, I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think that's, that's a version of the regulatory capture argument, that [laughs] like if we get to shape the regulation, it's gonna benefit us and it will protect us. I also think, you know, one, one thing I haven't heard talked about a lot but that I have, I have felt when I interact with some of the, the AI founders is I think they are vulnerable. I think, you know, they've thought, several of them anyway, not all of them, but if you make a list of the who's who of AI, um, a number of them have thought in a lot of detail very vividly about AI doomsday scenarios. And so if we go back to the Heath brothers, they have the emotion, they have the story, they, they kinda bounce off of each other and [laughs] like they're in an echo chamber of sources they consider credible. And I think that the concreteness of the images they generate, like they have started to buy into a narrative that like the danger of China being ahead of America is so great that we need to get there first, even if the thing we build might be dangerous in ways that China's tools aren't. And I think that they've, they've actually, like they, I think they've kinda bought hook, line, and sinker the argument that, okay, [laughs] like because China could, could be faster, the morally responsible thing to do is like we have to build it so that, you know, we can, we can stop them. Not really considering, okay, is that a fear of mine that now is influencing my motivation?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, no.
- AGAdam Grant
Who has, who has sold me that argument about China? And what is their vested interest? Their vested interest is in propping up the American economy and getting like America to be AI dominant. And I'm not saying their fears are right or wrong, but the fact that the people who are now peddling the fear are themselves also responding to it, I, I think is a-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God
- AGAdam Grant
... I mean, [laughs] it, it gets complicated very quickly, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, make sure that you put on my tombstone I won. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Like, it's like, it's like, yeah. I, I just wanna go back to the name of the study, Dispelling the Illusion of Invulnerability, The Motivations and Mechanisms of Resistance to Persuasion. You know, and this whole idea that when we have shame about being persuadable, we are so vulnerable to influence. Is that wild?
- 37:16 – 39:30
Conspiracy Theories and Science Denial
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, 100%.
- AGAdam Grant
And I, I'm not, I'm not talking about plausible conspiracy theories.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
I am talking about, like, [laughs] clearly falsified, invalidated conspiracy theories, like the, the Earth is flat.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
And I think, I, I mean, I've s- I, I have seen this. It's, it's clear in the data, but I've also seen it happen with, with some people I know, where they are so afraid of, you know, pick your, pick your poison, big pharma, or big government, or, like, whatever source they think might have some self-serving intentions or profit motives. They put up their guard against them, and that fear then makes them vulnerable to another group of people who are selling complete snake oil.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it. That's it. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, that's what happened with COVID denial.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
It's what happens with all kinds of science denial, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and I wonder, you know, this is, this is like, this is the wildest conversation. I love it so much. Um, and it's a conversation that's so perfect for the two of us because coming from Think Like a Scientist and then coming from shame and vulnerability, and you can't have this conversation without all of those variables. You know, and this is-
- AGAdam Grant
I, I love how you just put our life's work together. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. No, it's, yeah, it's cahoots. We're in cahoots here on this one. Um, I think to be able to ask what's persuading me, and is the promise that I'm being made supported by evidence, like, what is the promise?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I, I also, I also think, to be honest with you, the very first week of COVID hitting the US, I posted something on social that said, "This is going to be an involuntary experiment in mass collective vulnerability, and you will see the best of people and the absolute effing worst of people." And I think, I think that was true.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, you're, you're exactly right.
- 39:30 – 46:01
The Need to Belong and "Common Enemy Intimacy"
- BBBrené Brown
Uh, and I think that part of the conspiracy theory, and this is interesting 'cause I'm going to Vibe now, which is, I wanna save for our next episode, but when I was reading Vibe, I kept thinking about believing, because it's, it's, your connection between the wellness grift and conspiracy theory, that's not a 30-mile walk. That's two steps to the left. That, that-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, that's right
- BBBrené Brown
... and, and, yeah, and what drives, I think, that we don't ever talk about, what drives the COVID denial and the flat Earth and the things that are just kinda mind-boggling if you follow evidence and sources, is also belonging.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I want to be a part of something that, in a mixing bowl, looks like a little bit of toughness combined with rebellion combined with fuck the system, and boy, this, this, this mixture is how I want to be seen.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't wanna be controlled. I don't wanna be sheeple, although if you look at the conspiracy theory believers, they define sheeple. That mean, that, that is the definition of sheeple.
- AGAdam Grant
It's the ultimate irony.
- BBBrené Brown
People following science. Yeah, people following sinus, uh, science and getting vaccines. You know, come on. Like, I, I, I don't know. So it's, there's also a, when we're afraid, and when vulnerability doesn't s- feel like an option because it means we could die or not be able to get out of bed, we want to put on armor that looks like bravado.
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
That looks like resistance, that looks like-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah, that looks like, "I will not keep, I, I am a rebel. The Earth is flat." You know, like ... [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, and that, okay, that makes people feel secure.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
It gives them a sense of strength. It also connects them to a group, and, and this is just, this is your point about belonging. It connects them to a group where now they have special insider knowledge instead of feeling like they're just either the, the, the stupid masses or they're, they're actually excluded. They're outsiders.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Now they're possessing privileged information. It makes them feel important. They know things others don't, and they reinforce each other's knowledge, and then you get a group polarization effect.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it. That's it. And that is absolutely... Every time I see something, including this naturopathic doctor who was standing in front of this stuff saying, "Toxic products for newbor- newborns that I would never let in my house," I think immediately that's gonna become a group of people that, in your vibe words, will feel like pals right away. They are, they are hot wi- hot wiring connection and palship. They are common-
- AGAdam Grant
Hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... enemy intimacy is what I call it in my work.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, that's such a good term for it.
- BBBrené Brown
Common-
- AGAdam Grant
Common enemy intimacy
- BBBrené Brown
... intimacy. I don't know you. When shit gets hard, there's no way this relationship's going to stand up. We are never gonna be, you know, the highest level of vibing in, you know, in vibe as companion where we can lean on each other and into each other. We will never be that, but right now there is a bolus, a hit, an endorphin hit of connection because we hate the same people and we believe the same wild shit and the rest of the world is fucked.
- AGAdam Grant
And that makes us feel like inseparable allies too.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it.
- AGAdam Grant
'Cause we've got a common mission to take down this enemy, or to-
- BBBrené Brown
That's it
- AGAdam Grant
... even just to protect ourselves against this enemy.
- 46:01 – 47:37
Teaching Persuasion Literacy in Schools
- AGAdam Grant
setting up much earlier. This should be taught in schools.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God, yes.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, I will trade trigonometry for [laughs] like protecting people against vulner... But like there, uh, if I, if I were-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... designing a high school curriculum, I would say replace trig with statistics 101, which includes a whole module on how do people lie to you with, with facts, with data, or how do they even signal credibility when they don't have data to begin with.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, and here's where Adam and I part ways.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I would say take out trig, replace it with an interesting class on, in the sociology department, on belonging, vulnerability, and persuasion, and have a tiny little statistics component. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Can we do both? Both.
- BBBrené Brown
Two part seme- t- year-long, two semester?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Mine's gonna be more appealing to-
- AGAdam Grant
We need to find another class to cancel.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs] I'll give you a long list. Um, I actually do use algebra every now and then, so I can't do... Geometry. No, geometry's actually-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, geometry.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I could let it go.
- BBBrené Brown
No. Geometry's really important in pickleball. Sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
Calculus.
- BBBrené Brown
Bye-bye.
- AGAdam Grant
I don't think anybody needs calculus.
- BBBrené Brown
No, no. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Yeah. All right. This was... Thank you for, thank you for, like... I just feel like we got on a rollercoaster and you were like, "What kind of ride is this?" And I said, "Don't worry. Ch, ch. Let's go."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Buckle up. Here we are.
- 47:37 – 51:12
Book Recommendations: "Foolproof" and "Lump"
- BBBrené Brown
Buckle up.
- AGAdam Grant
And one, one other book for anybody who wants to dig more into this, uh, Sander van der Linden published a book called Foolproof, and it's a, it's a whole book about the psychology of why we fall for misinformation and how to build immunity, and we will put that in the show notes too.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. And before we close, you're not gonna like this, but I don't care. I just have to talk about this.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, no, I'm gonna love this. Allyson published Lump. Love it.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
And October, Brené, I gotta say, actually, your timing is impeccable because October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
- BBBrené Brown
I just wanna say to everyone that, um, y'all know I'm a huge poetry person, and I do not say this easily, 'cause I could say a lot of nice things about the book and not say this. I never thought as an adult that I would read a new book That pushed its way into my top 10 books of poetry of all time, and Lump did it. And the subtitle is A Memoir in Ineloquent Reflections, and it is a collection of poetry about, is it fair to say Alison's breast cancer diagnosis, her healing, her... How would you describe it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think that's a great description of it. I, I mean, I loved it so much that I married her.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
But-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... you know, not necessarily in that order, but there's so many things I could say, but I- it meant so much to both of us that you read it, let alone that you were moved by it. And yeah, I think when, when she was going through diagnosis, treatment, recovery, you know, even now we're, we're about to celebrate six years all clear, sh- it was really hard to talk about. And she found that writing poetry and prose, like, really helped her process the experience, and it, she basically tried to write the book that she wanted to read when she was going through all this. And I'm, I'm just, I'm thrilled for her that it's out in the world, and I'm, I'm really hoping that, [laughs] that anybody who has to either go through a difficult illness themselves or care for a loved one or just wants to understand an experience they haven't lived better, um, will benefit from reading it.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I mean, when I read it, I, I just emailed Alison right away and just said, "The o- the, the first words that came to me is this book is what poetry is for." Like-
- AGAdam Grant
Aw
- BBBrené Brown
... this is... Yeah, no, this is... God, I laughed. It is so fricking irreverent. And then I sobbed, and I saw myself in it, and I saw people that I love in it, and it's just Lump right here, Alison Sweet Grant. Like, it's beautiful. So I wanted to say it because it's true.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, thank you. You are such a giver, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
Sometimes. Um, thanks for getting on the ride with me today. It was, uh, it was really... It was, it was fun in real time to make all these connections.
- AGAdam Grant
For me too, as always. [bell dings]
- BBBrené Brown
[upbeat music] The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Grantad Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 51:12
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