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The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantThe Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Uncertainty is Not the Enemy

Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions 3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal 13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships? 22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair 32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders? 40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty 52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty 59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty 1:05:00 - Closing Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study) https://www.hbs.edu/ris/PublicationFiles/00-067_cdcafdf1-d946-44ec-96ad-558ad606477d.pdf The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book https://amycedmondson.com/psychological-safety/ Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast https://www.ted.com/talks/worklife_with_adam_grant_is_it_safe_to_speak_up_at_work Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book https://www.amazon.com/Anchored-Aligned-Accountable-Transcending-Transforming/dp/0593732162 Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Predicting-Exit,-Voice,-Loyalty,-and-Neglect.-Withey-Cooper/fcb359fca6d04aacc3c560f0bd11fb2bfc281aa8 Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States - Albert Hirschman,1970, Book https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268485669_Hirschman_and_Voice/link/5b571700aca27217ffb7b806/download?_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19 The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/sociology/system-justification-theory The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast https://www.ted.com/pages/the-secrets-of-a-great-apology-transcript The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043 I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast https://brenebrown.com/podcast/harriet-lerner-and-brene-im-sorry-how-to-apologize-why-it-matters-part-1-of-2/ Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book https://bookshop.org/p/books/conclave-robert-harris/8e71e23a28df2e93?source=aw&sv1=affiliate&sv_campaign_id=449857&utm_source=awin&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=449857&utm_term=0&sscid=92005_1776076021_301f35b7503e6d13630c0fd15d67ed9c&awc=92005_1776076021_301f35b7503e6d13630c0fd15d67ed9c A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/383395233_A_Comprehensive_Analysis_of_COVID-19_Misinformation_Public_Health_Impacts_and_Communication_Strategies_Scoping_Review Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887618516300251 Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269477556_Conceptual_Models_of_Generalized_Anxiety_Disorder The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book https://mayashankar.com/ Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sheldon-Cohen/publication/15796493_Aftereffects_of_stress_on_human_performance_and_social_behavior_A_review_of_research_and_theory/links/02e7e52a86a0842d4f000000/Aftereffects-of-stress-on-human-performance-and-social-behavior-A-review-of-research-and-theory.pdf Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/ For full show notes, see audio platforms.

Brené BrownhostAdam Granthost
Apr 16, 20261h 7mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. Uncertainty as the backdrop: listener Q&A format and why it matters now

    Brené Brown and Adam Grant set the stage: uncertainty is showing up across organizations and everyday life, and they’ll use listener questions to explore it. They frame the episode as both practical (tools) and reflective (what uncertainty does to people and systems).

  2. Pre-mortems: shifting risk from “review” to “reveal”

    A listener comment prompts a deep look at pre-mortems as more than risk checklists—they’re a way to surface what people already suspect but don’t feel safe to say. Brené and Adam argue the friction is both skill-based (anticipatory thinking) and culture-based (psychological safety).

  3. Building anticipatory thinking + psychological safety (and why “playing to win” comes first)

    Brené describes a performance-first approach: start with the outcome (“what does winning look like?”) and then identify the mindsets and behaviors required. They connect psychological safety to high performance while emphasizing productive challenge, accountability, and team ownership.

  4. Why people stay loyal to harmful systems: exit–voice–loyalty–neglect

    Adam applies a classic framework to explain why people remain in workplaces or relationships that drain them: leaving isn’t always feasible and speaking up may be unsafe. Loyalty can then trigger cognitive dissonance and “system justification,” making people defend what’s hurting them.

  5. Adding “necessity”: economic reality, privilege, and the limits of choice

    Brené challenges purely psychological explanations with lived-experience realities: sometimes people don’t leave because they can’t. She emphasizes curiosity over judgment, noting safety risks (e.g., domestic violence) and the role of privilege and safety nets in enabling exit.

  6. Repair after harm: what makes an apology real (the 5 Rs + Lerner’s ingredients)

    They respond to a listener asking for repair tools, offering two complementary frameworks. Adam shares the “five Rs” of apology; Brené shares Harriet Lerner’s principles, focusing on accountability without shifting burden to the harmed person.

  7. The “Thank you” lesson: accountability without rushing closure

    A family story illustrates how responses to apologies can keep the apologizer in their accountability instead of offering quick reassurance. Adam distinguishes “That’s okay” from “We’re okay,” and they discuss the timeline belonging to the hurt party.

  8. Leadership and uncertainty: is our brain built for this moment?

    A listener’s question and a quote from Conclave spark a debate: do leaders need the courage to remain uncertain, and are humans hardwired for today’s uncertainty? Adam argues we’re built for even more uncertainty historically, but we lack practice because modern life shields us.

  9. Intolerance of uncertainty: why “not knowing” can feel worse than bad news

    They walk through intolerance of uncertainty as a measurable vulnerability linked to anxiety. Examples show people often prefer certain negative outcomes over ambiguous ones, revealing how deeply uncertainty aversion can run and how it shifts with age and experience.

  10. Uncertainty vs. control: cultural “world-building” and why certainty is marketed

    They explore how cultures and institutions create narratives that certainty is achievable—especially through privilege—and how that intensifies distress when life remains unpredictable. Adam reframes the core craving as control more than certainty.

  11. Control as an antidote: the stress “button” experiments

    Adam cites research showing perceived control reduces stress even when people never use the control option. Brené connects viscerally to the need for an “off-ramp,” underscoring how control mitigates uncertainty’s threat response.

  12. Societies managing uncertainty: Hofstede, compensatory control, and political fallout

    They connect uncertainty management to religion, law, and technology at the societal level, then shift into compensatory control and terror management ideas. Rising uncertainty accelerates demand for certainty and can fuel polarization, extremism, and attraction to authoritarian “certainty sellers.”

  13. What helps: critical thinking, community trust, and ‘pre-bunking’ misinformation

    They close with actionable levers: education in critical thinking and systems thinking, strengthening community connection, and inoculation/pre-bunking strategies that teach people how manipulation works. Adam adds that both skills and motivation matter, and simple prompts like “Is this true?” can reduce misinformation spread.

  14. Closing reflections: doubt as the engine of curiosity

    They thank listeners for questions and debate, and Adam frames uncertainty as an occasion for curiosity rather than threat. Brené ends with a Richard Rohr quote linking faith and scientific humility, underscoring that faith and learning both require living with uncertainty.

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