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The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantThe Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant

Uncertainty is Not the Enemy

Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty – how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions 3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal 13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships? 22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair 32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders? 40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty 52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty 59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty 1:05:00 - Closing Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study) https://www.hbs.edu/ris/PublicationFiles/00-067_cdcafdf1-d946-44ec-96ad-558ad606477d.pdf The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book https://amycedmondson.com/psychological-safety/ Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast https://www.ted.com/talks/worklife_with_adam_grant_is_it_safe_to_speak_up_at_work Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book https://www.amazon.com/Anchored-Aligned-Accountable-Transcending-Transforming/dp/0593732162 Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Predicting-Exit,-Voice,-Loyalty,-and-Neglect.-Withey-Cooper/fcb359fca6d04aacc3c560f0bd11fb2bfc281aa8 Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States - Albert Hirschman,1970, Book https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268485669_Hirschman_and_Voice/link/5b571700aca27217ffb7b806/download?_tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19 The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/sociology/system-justification-theory The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast https://www.ted.com/pages/the-secrets-of-a-great-apology-transcript The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Anger-Changing-Patterns-Relationships/dp/0062319043 I’m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast https://brenebrown.com/podcast/harriet-lerner-and-brene-im-sorry-how-to-apologize-why-it-matters-part-1-of-2/ Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book https://bookshop.org/p/books/conclave-robert-harris/8e71e23a28df2e93?source=aw&sv1=affiliate&sv_campaign_id=449857&utm_source=awin&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=449857&utm_term=0&sscid=92005_1776076021_301f35b7503e6d13630c0fd15d67ed9c&awc=92005_1776076021_301f35b7503e6d13630c0fd15d67ed9c A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research https://www.researchgate.net/publication/383395233_A_Comprehensive_Analysis_of_COVID-19_Misinformation_Public_Health_Impacts_and_Communication_Strategies_Scoping_Review Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0887618516300251 Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269477556_Conceptual_Models_of_Generalized_Anxiety_Disorder The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book https://mayashankar.com/ Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sheldon-Cohen/publication/15796493_Aftereffects_of_stress_on_human_performance_and_social_behavior_A_review_of_research_and_theory/links/02e7e52a86a0842d4f000000/Aftereffects-of-stress-on-human-performance-and-social-behavior-A-review-of-research-and-theory.pdf Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance https://geerthofstede.com/culture-geert-hofstede-gert-jan-hofstede/6d-model-of-national-culture/ For full show notes, see audio platforms.

Brené BrownhostAdam Granthost
Apr 15, 20261h 7mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Brown and Grant reframe uncertainty as fuel for curiosity and leadership

  1. They argue premortems work best when teams build both psychological safety and the anticipatory-thinking skills needed to surface real, novel risks early.
  2. They explore why people stay loyal to draining jobs or relationships, emphasizing constraints like economic necessity and safety, alongside dynamics like sunk costs and system justification.
  3. They compare evidence-based apology frameworks, highlighting accountability, behavior change, and avoiding “but,” while not burdening the harmed person to forgive or reassure.
  4. They debate whether humans are hardwired for today’s uncertainty, landing on a shared view that uncertainty triggers threat responses but can be managed with practice, expectations resets, and better tools.
  5. They connect uncertainty spikes to polarization and authoritarian appeal via compensatory control and (partly contested) terror management ideas, then propose countermeasures like critical thinking, community trust, and “prebunking.”

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Treat risk as something to reveal, not merely review.

A strong premortem isn’t a checklist; it creates enough safety and shared language for people to say what they already suspect and to surface risks they haven’t yet learned to anticipate.

Premortems build two things at once: safety and foresight muscles.

Brown argues the friction is both psychological safety and the underdeveloped capabilities of anticipatory thinking, situational/temporal awareness, systems thinking, and critical thinking—especially in a novel, fast-changing world.

Start culture change with “playing to win,” not abstract safety talk.

Brown’s practical entry point is performance: clarify what winning looks like, identify “play not to lose” behaviors (avoidance, lack of productive challenge), then define the mindsets/skills needed to achieve outcomes.

Don’t judge why people stay; investigate constraints and lived realities.

Beyond exit/voice/loyalty/neglect, Brown adds necessity—financial, health insurance, safety risks, and lack of options—making curiosity and support far more useful than “Why don’t you leave?”

Effective apologies prioritize ownership and changed behavior over words.

Grant’s five Rs (regret, rationale, responsibility, repentance, repair) and Lerner’s criteria converge on accountability and follow-through; the harmed person shouldn’t be pressured to forgive or to soothe the apologizer.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

“Teams treat risk as something to review instead of something to reveal.”

Brené Brown (quoting Steven)

“You must want to win more than you want to protect your ego, period.”

Brené Brown

“The best apology is changed behavior.”

Adam Grant

“Get your but out of the way.”

Brené Brown

“I don’t actually think that what people are looking for is certainty… I think what they’re looking for is control.”

Adam Grant

Premortems as risk-revealing practicePsychological safety vs anticipatory thinking skillsExit–voice–loyalty–neglect (and necessity)Cognitive dissonance, sunk costs, system justificationApology frameworks: five Rs and Lerner’s ingredientsIntolerance of uncertainty and control needsCompensatory control, terror management, polarization, authoritarian attractionPrebunking/inoculation, media literacy, algorithm incentives, AI hallucinations

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