The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantUncertainty is Not the Enemy
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,031 words- 0:00 – 3:20
Introduction and Guest Questions
- BBBrené Brown
[upbeat music] [door closing] [glass tinkling] Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown.
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm Adam Grant.
- BBBrené Brown
We're gonna talk today, Adam, about the word ringing in the halls of every organization that I am walking through at this point, um-
- AGAdam Grant
Which is?
- BBBrené Brown
It's a... Yeah. Uncertainty. This is-
- AGAdam Grant
Are you sure?
- BBBrené Brown
... uncertainty. Yeah, I'm su- I'm, I'm 100% certain that uncertainty is... The level of uncertainty and the velocity of change right now is tough.
- AGAdam Grant
Not just in organizations, but-
- BBBrené Brown
No
- AGAdam Grant
... people are grappling with it in everyday life. The, uh, uh, the world is in flux.
- BBBrené Brown
The world is in flux. So why don't we do this? We'll start with some listener questions. Um, we had many questions come in through social media. I think you grabbed some off Spotify. Let's dig into some of the questions that we received and unpack some of the answers. And also, I wanna say shout out to some of the learning. I, I mean, I, I really learned some stuff from these conversations, so I'm grateful for that. Let's do that for the first half, and then we will springboard from one of the questions into the second half of the podcast today on uncertainty.
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, there's no faster way to a diver's heart than to use the word springboard. I'm in.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I mean, I was just trying to make your day.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Done.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Day made.
- BBBrené Brown
Day made. Okay. So, I posted on LinkedIn one of our takeaways from, uh, our episode, was it episode two? We talked about pre-mortems, and we talked about pre-mortems as an i- as a risk assessment tool. So we are launching a project, and we ask ourselves during the launch, "Hey, if it's six months or a year from now, and this thing's gone to shit, what will we be talking about then? And why can't we talk about it now? And what should we be talking about now?" And we actually did, in episode two, our own pre-mortem on our podcast. Um, so I posted this... Why are you laughing?
- AGAdam Grant
Well, one, 'cause we're still here.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Well, I mean, we have-
- AGAdam Grant
So far, so good
- BBBrené Brown
... made it. So far, so good. Um, but I-
- AGAdam Grant
And two-
- BBBrené Brown
... it was helpful.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I found it helpful, too, and it, it really did leave me thinking this should happen in every important relationship, not just in work decisions. I, I, I think that new parents should talk about, [laughs] like, what are the, the things that are most likely to screw up our kids in two and five and 10 years, and how do we avoid that? And I just, I just love how universal the, [laughs] the fear of failing is, and I love this as a tool to try to prevent failure by anticipating some of the things you could have prevented.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. And I love that, like... I love the two questions that I use a lot in a pre-mortem because one of them is what should we be talking about, and the other one is why aren't we talking about it right now. And I gotta tell you, the people who work in risk are big fans of the pre-mortem. On the LinkedIn, all the risk assessment people are like, "Now you're speaking my language." Um, I did
- 3:20 – 13:40
Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal
- BBBrené Brown
a quick qualitative analysis of the comments that came in, and there was, there was a question that Steven, who is an executive and leadership coach... We got into a conversation, and it got the most kind of like, "Yes, please take this to the episode. We wanna hear you and Adam talk about this." So I'm gonna read it. It's gonna take a minute or so to get through it, but I think it's a really important framing. So Steven writes, "What stood out to me," and this is in, in our podcast, episode two, "is how often teams treat risk as something to review instead of something to reveal. I've seen leaders wait until the post-mortem, not because they don't care, but because naming risk early feels like slowing momentum or questioning the plan. But underneath that, it's usually something deeper, protecting confidence in the room. The shift happens when risk becomes a shared language, not a personal judgment. That's when teams stop managing perception and start building real traction. In my experience, the best premar- mortems aren't about predicting failure. They're about creating enough safety for people to say what they already know but haven't said yet. I'm curious, where do you see the real friction show up more, in identifying the risks or in creating s- the space where people say, feel safe enough to speak them out loud?" Let me say that again, because it's really... We know that, we know from the research and we know from our own experiences... I mean, I do this all day, all day long for years. I'm, I'm with senior teams facilitating these. We know there's friction around a pre-mortem. Steven's question, where does it show up more, in identifying the risks or creating the space where people feel safe enough to speak them out loud? This question of is it really new information that you're excavating in a pre-mortem, or is it psychological safety that you're built... You know, where is the real friction? This was the question. I mean, across 80% of the comments.
- AGAdam Grant
Can I, can I just vote for both right off the bat?
- BBBrené Brown
100%. So that's actually how I answered him, um, because I, I wanna say... And, and there were some people with whom I disagreed in the comments who said it's nothing but psychological safety. The friction is all about everybody already knows what the risks are, and no one is saying it be- and because the friction is just about the room is not safe enough.And I absolutely wholeheartedly disagree. I think a good pre-mortem is about excavating new information that requires new skills that very few leaders have today because the world is new, and those are the skills of peeking around the corner, anticipatory thinking, situational awareness, temporal awareness, systems thinking, critical thinking. I would say if in a good pre-mortem you are building these skills, they're not strong muscles, you're doing it as a team, and it cannot be done without psychological safety. You're building both at the same time, which is why these are best done probably facilitated. What do you think?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think that, I mean, that, that's so well put. I think it reminds me of [laughs] one of the first projects I ever did as a, as a young organizational psychologist, was studying a bookstore you probably remember called Borders.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Oh, and yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I watched that company go out of business, and y- there may have been people in the company who saw Amazon coming. But it was not on the radar as a major risk, and I, I've thought so many times if, if they had the skills to do the pre-mortem, people would have been, would have been very comfortable saying, "Hey, [laughs] what if, what if this all goes digital? What if, like, what if physical bookstores are not even necessary anymore?" Uh, which I don't agree with, by the way, [laughs] as a premise. I'm glad we have physical bookstores. I think there's a place for them in the world. But it, it, it wasn't... The problem there, I don't think, was a lack of psychological safety. I think they had the safety, and they just had a lot of people locked into the mindset that books are physical objects that you want to go and browse in a store. And there's a, uh, there's, there's a study of, of Polaroid going down the same road where [laughs] they, they just could not let go of... This is a, a Tripsas and Gavetti paper, uh, where they do a deep dive into what went wrong at Polaroid, and people could not let go of the business model that we sell film. Like, they had digital imaging technology. They knew how to build digital cameras, but they, they couldn't embrace the change that was underfoot, and they, you know, they failed because of it. And so, you know, obviously if you can't get people to feel comfortable speaking up because they're afraid they're gonna damage their reputations or their relationships or risk their careers, that is a psychological safety challenge. But k- surmounting [laughs] the psychological safety problem is not enough in and of itself to get all of the new ideas on the table that, that raise problems then that lead to new solutions. So I think-
- BBBrené Brown
I mean-
- AGAdam Grant
... I'm agreeing with you.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I think we're, I think we're in agreement. Um, Steve, and Steve and I had this big, long thread. Um, one of the things that he asked, he says, "I'm curious how you approach the balance, the psychological safety and skills balance. At the C level, do you intentionally develop anticipatory thinking and psychological safety in parallel, or have you seen one reliably unlock the other first?" And I'm gonna get very practical right now, and, and people won't love it, and that's great. Um, I think it's because I was an athlete, and I think it's because I do a lot of work in sports that I approach this in a very practical way, which is this: If you want to play to win, whatever it is that you're trying to win, market share, uh, d- you know, competitive advantage, stock, what... I mean, like, what... You know, impact if you're an NGO or nonprofit, do a lot of work there. If you want to win, you must create an environment of productive challenge. You must want to win more than you want to protect your ego, period. So I do not come in first with psychological safety or the skills. I come in outcome-focused with performance. What is it that you want to do? Increase organic growth? You know, what- whatever your thing is. Then let's talk about two things. What does it look like to play to win, and secondly, what does it look like to play not to lose? And let me tell you what teams do who play not to lose. There's no productive challenge. They, they, they, they don't have hard conversations. They allow negative contagion, you know? And so for me, it's about... It's almost design thinking. It's almost tell me what's keeping you up at night. Tell me what's on your heart and mind, and tell me what winning looks like. And then I will tell you the collection of skillsets, mindsets, and behaviors that we're gonna need to see in this room for that to happen.
- AGAdam Grant
What's... I think what's so effective about that is you're then... You're not pitching them on, you know, a culture change or a set of practices that [laughs] that you're passionate about that they need to adopt.
- BBBrené Brown
No.
- AGAdam Grant
You are finding out what their goals are-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... and then helping them solve the, uh... You're basically helping them clear the obstacles that are in the middle of their path to their goal.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, and it's, it's... I think it's really interesting because, yeah, I-I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a shout-out right now for two people, um, in tandem actually. Amy Edmondson's work on psychological, psychological safety, I think is, you, you can't have high performance without it. And I also wanna shout out Aiko Bethea's new book, Anchored, Aligned, and Accountable, because I think it's a tool for building it. I think, you know, having a team that's anchored in their values, cares about the alignment between... And this is a big one in pre-mortems, cares about the alignment between intention and impact, meaning I ca- I'm trying to engage in task conflict and make us better, but I've moved over to emotional conflict and been shitty to you, and now I'm gonna make a repair for that, because it, because it gets in the way of winning, and then last is accountable to each other. One of the things that we didn't talk about when we talked about pre-mortems that came up a lot in the comments that I really loved was a pre-mortem really increases team ownership of the project, you know? And so I... You know, to, to Amy Edmondson, who put the concept of psychological safety out into the world, and then to Aiko, who's got new work coming as a coach and a facilitator about how she builds it tactically, um, this is playing to win to me.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, that actually
- 13:40 – 22:28
Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships?
- AGAdam Grant
is a good segue to one of our other questions.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I love it. I love a segue.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Nicely done.
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, this is, this is a question that, this is one of my most thought-provoking and popular comments. Um, this came in from Eva, who works in customer success, and she's asking about why people continue to c- stay committed to organizations, to relationships, uh, that lack psychological safety and that might be crushing their souls a little bit. So she says, "I'd be curious to hear a conversation about why people stay loyal to systems that quietly exhaust them. Many people can clearly see when something in their environment no longer aligns with their values or even their wellbeing."
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
"Yet instead of leaving, leaving or confronting it, they adapt to it and sometimes even end up defending it. What psychological forces make us protect structures that are slowly draining us?" I, I thought this was a profound question. Thank you, Eva.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I hear it all... I hear it very often, and I've got... I, I can't... You go first.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. I'm, I'm more curious about what you're gonna say [laughs] than what I'm gonna say-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... 'cause I already know what I'm gonna say.
- BBBrené Brown
I already know what I'm gonna say too, but I'm very curious about what you're gonna say.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. I'll, I'll kick us off. Uh, so the first thing that came to mind on this was I was thinking about the, the classic Hirschman framework that Withey and Cooper then elaborated, exit, voice, loyalty, neglect. Four responses to-
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, wait. Say, say, say that again. Exit?
- AGAdam Grant
Exit, voice, loyalty, neglect.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Th- those are four possible responses to s- to dissatisfaction. If you're unhappy in a relationship, in a job, in a country for that matter, um, exit is you leave. Voice is you speak up and try to change it and fix it. Uh, loyalty is you bite your tongue and you do your best anyway. And neglect is you do the bare minimum to not blow it up. That's like the office space response-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... uh, for those, those who are fans. Um, I think that for a lot of people, what happens is they feel trapped. Uh, they're in a relationship that they, they don't feel they can leave. They're in a job where they don't think they have alternatives. And so exit, exit is just not an option, and there's not enough psychological safety to voice. Uh, they, they think that it might damage the relationship or it might lose them their job, and so they don't speak up, or they've tried and their voice has fallen on deaf ears. And so people start cycling through their options, and they're basically left with loyalty or neglect. And for many people, loyalty is a matter of integrity. I am not the kind of person who half-asses it. I'm not the kind of person who does the bare minimum. And so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna keep giving this organization my all. And at that point, what kicks in is cognitive dissonance, and you-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... get what psychologists like, um, Jon Jost and Mahzarin Banaji have called system justification, where [laughs] the more that you, you show loyalty to the person or the organization, the more you're persuading yourself, "I care. This is important to me." And the more trapped you are in this sense that, "But I've invested so much. I now have all these sunk costs." And Brené, I'm really curious to hear your, your reaction to this. I just wanna overlay, I have become convinced recently that there is a gender difference in this tendency. Uh, there's a, a pretty sizable body of evidence that women are more likely to internalize distress and say, "Well, this is on me," like, "This is my problem, and therefore, like, I just need to, you know, I need to keep trying to solve it or fix it, um, in my life, but I still owe something to the organization or the other person. I have a duty of care. I have a duty of responsibility." Whereas men are more likely to externalize problems and say, like, "You know what? That's, that's not the right person. That's not the right job. That's not the right organization for me. I'm out." Over to you.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't think this is gender. I think it's experiential maybe, so... Uh, and, but maybe gender too. So Eva, right? That's who asked.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
So I, I would say exit, voice, loyalty, or neglect. I would say there... I would add something to this, and I would say, um, necessity.And so I, I'm reminded of so many things when I think about that question. The first thing I'm reminded of is like a personal story for me. When my parents... My, my, my whole family life like blew up like, like a cartoon where you just have one of those things and you're like, sh. It just kind of blew up. And I found myself in school and putting myself through school, no money, broke, no, no real support from my parents who were just both like... Our whole family was just dis- just dissolving. Um, and at some point, you know, I sold my car to pay tuition, I took a bus to wait tables, I cleaned houses on the weekend. And I waited tables at a place that was probably one of the most abusive places I've ever worked, like the kind where the restaurant manager would throw you up against the wall if you dropped a plate or something. It w- And, and, and, and it wasn't about like... I, I couldn't exit. Like, that's how I paid my rent, that's how I paid my tuition, that's how... I couldn't exit. You- da- voice was dangerous. I wasn't loyal. I hated them. And, and neglect wasn't really an option because it was too scary if you didn't do your job well. And so I think when we see someone in that situation, if the question, if the answer consideration set is exit, voice, loyalty, or neglect, I think we're forgetting about, you know, I'm a single mom, my kid has leukemia, this is my health insurance, and I can't leave. The job market is not favorable and a paycheck is a priority. So I think the most important thing I would say to this question is, and Eva demonstrated this in the question, get curious rather than judgmental. 'Cause the question, whenever I hear the question as a social worker, "Why didn't, why don't you leave?" I go directly to my work in domestic violence and sexual assault, where women in that position know that the majority of people who are killed in that position kill, are killed while leaving, you know? And so people don't leave for a lot of reasons, which wh- is why my favorite question is, you know, tell me what about what's going on and what does support from me look like? Because I think there are... And, and, a- and it does get gendered very quickly, but it's not just women who have to put food on the table and have health insurance for a sick kid or a, a million other reasons. But I think getting curious about people's thinking and people's lived experiences is the most important thing when I see this, and sometimes it is real desperation and a lack of choices. And related to that too, I think I would add another one, which one is just, you know, economic reality I would add to the list, but I'd also add to the list some combination of privilege and agency. Like, I think about if my, one of my children was caught in the position bartending and waiting tables that I was caught in, they would never have to stay there more than five minutes because I am a safety net for them.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? And so, and I think in today's employment environment, it's hard to find a job right now. I mean, it, it's really hard depending on what your skill set is and your industry is. So I think this is when our commitment to curiosity really pays off.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. Should we go to the next question?
- BBBrené Brown
Yes, let's go to the next question. I... A, a really beautiful question about the apologizing. Um, the person wrote, "I know the apologies between you and Adam
- 22:28 – 32:33
Strategies for Apologizing and Repair
- BBBrené Brown
were personal. Is there anything you can tell us about repair that we could learn from? Is there any... Are there any like toolkits or ideas about repair that could be helpful?" And I think we're both bringing one to the table, so you go first.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. So I, I've learned a lot from Beth Polin's research on, uh, what I've, I've come to think of as the five Rs-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... of an apology, uh, which are regret, rationale, responsibility, repentance, and repair. Uh, so regret is basically showing remorse, and that's the, the typical, "I'm so sorry that, you know, I made you feel this way," or, "I'm so sorry that happened." That turns out though in the research to be less important than some of the other components. Um, I think-
- BBBrené Brown
Ooh
- AGAdam Grant
... the rationale, the rationale is, is kinda table stakes to explain what you were thinking or, you know, why you made the mistake you did. Um, but the part that I think most people overlook that really matters is responsibility.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm-hmm.
- AGAdam Grant
Saying, "This is on me." Like, uh, either I caused the problem, or I contributed to the problem, or, you know, I, I, I don't even know what caused the problem, but I am, I am taking responsibility for preventing it from happening again. And I think that, that goes to repentance, which is basically making a commitment to do better. Um, I, I love the saying, "The best apology is changed behavior." And-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, me too [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... you're almost there when you've expressed regret, you've given your rationale, and you've taken responsibility and repented, but ultimately, repair is demonstrating that you mean it all by not committing another offense and failing to, to change your actions.Uh, and to me, like, if you do th- those things, um, you've, you've shown that you take really seriously the offense or the impact of your actions, and you are sincere about your desire to make it right. And I, I think [laughs] if I could pick two, I would say I want responsibility and repair. I want you to say, like, "Here's what I own that I did wrong or that I need to change," and then I want you to, to prove it through following through and actually walking your talk.
- BBBrené Brown
I agree on all counts. Um, and I, I am bringing to the conversation, um, Harriet Lerner's work. Harriet Lerner was a clinician at Menninger for many, many, many, many years. Um, and she actually, funnily enough, she wrote the first kind of self-reflection psychology book I ever read called The Dance of Anger, and my mom gave it to me as a cassette, a cassette on, you know, like, a book on tape. Um, and I remember getting it in, in the mail, and it's, you know, The Dance of Anger, and I was like, "I don't know." And then a month later, "Did you read it?" "No." "Did you listen to it yet?" "No." And then now, it's like, "Oh, okay, I get it." Um, she ha- I... And I did a two-part interview with her on Unlocking Us, and she has kind of nine essential ingredients of a true apology. I wanna go through them pretty quickly, but they're going to line up very much with the research you're talking about. One, I hate this part, um, it does not include the word but.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Get your but out of the way. Um, I'm... That's a hard one for me sometimes, but it doesn't include the word but. Keeps the focus on your actions and not on the other person's response. Includes an offer of reparation or restitution that fits the situation. It does not overdo, which I think is really interesting. Does not get caught up in who's more to blame or who started it. Requires that you do your best to avoid a repeat of performance. It should never serve to silence, which I think is really interesting. Have you ever been on the receiving end of apology that was very meant, very much meant to just, like, and that's the final word?
- AGAdam Grant
We're done here. I don't ever wanna speak to you again.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, we're done here. Right. Right. Um, eight, it shouldn't be offered to make you feel better if it risks making the hurt party feel worse. God, this is complicated and really good. And then nine, does not ask the hurt party to do anything, not even to forgive.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
What do you think?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, I... The, the complementarity is great, but the one... Well, two things. One, I think the but is such an important qualifier, and two, that last one, th- there is, there is a, there's a sixth R in the apology research, which is a request for forgiveness, and that has always bothered me because I don't think you should be asking something of the person you're, you're trying to make amends to.
- BBBrené Brown
Agree.
- AGAdam Grant
You're putting the burden on them. I think it's up to you to earn their forgiveness, but you shouldn't be seeking it. You should try to make it right because it's the [laughs] right thing to do.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Okay, I gotta tell you a really funny story. [laughs] You gotta watch this shit with your own kids. Let me tell you why. We were very conscious, um, when Ellen and Charlie were little, that they would apologize to one another, to... You know, we would apologize to them. I did not grow up with parents who apologized, so we were very... Steve and I were both very quick to apologize, um, to our kids. And one of the things we taught our kids was to never say, "That's okay," but to say, "Thank you." And I never thought much about it except, like, look at me, PBS, NPR mom. You know, like [laughs] that, you know, giving myself-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... a pat on the back and, you know. Um, and then one day, I really got frustrated with one of my kids, and I knocked on their door, and I was like, "I, I came to apologize. I got scared, and I can get scary when I'm scared, and that's not okay, and I apologize how, for how I showed up in that conversation. It was not helpful, and it did not honestly convey my excitement about you trying this new thing." And my kid looked right at me, right... Looked right at me and said, "Thank you." I was like, "What the shit? What are you..."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I was like, "Wait, what?" I, I was so dumbfounded. I was like, "Wait, this is the part where you go, 'That's okay, Mom, I totally get it. You just, you know, you, you got some mama bear in you sometimes,' and..." You know, nothing. Just a solemn-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
... mm-hmm. Like, this, this is, this is what... Doing the whole time, "Mm-hmm. Okay. Thank you."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
I was like-
- AGAdam Grant
You got-
- 32:33 – 40:15
Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders?
- AGAdam Grant
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- BBBrené Brown
Last question is from Cecile. And boy, this is gonna put us right in an area where we, we see the world differently. Are you ready?
- AGAdam Grant
I'm ready.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Back on LinkedIn, um, Cecile wrote, "Looking forward to the new podcast. How about this for a topic? Does great leadership require the courage to remain uncertain? And how do we show our uncertainty or hide it, and d- does it depend?" She writes, and I love this because it's one of my favorite, it's one of my favorite quotes from a book. Um, she said, "Here's the context for this. In Robert Harris's novel Conclave, the dean of the College of Cardinals gives an opening sermon where he warned that certainty can be dangerous in matters of faith because it closes the mind." Um, I love this quote from Conclave. I've, oh, I mean, I, I was so excited to see it on LinkedIn because I, I always think it's, you know, one of, like, a secret quote that only I'm obsessed with. But I will... Let me read the quote to you. Um, "My brothers and sisters, in the course of a long life in the service of our mother, the church, let me tell you that the one sin I have come to fear more than any other is certainty. Certainty is the great enemy of unity. Certainty is the deadly enemy of tolerance." It goes on with this. This line goes on to... It concludes the quote, "Our faith is a living thing precisely because it walks hand-in-hand with doubt. If there was only certainty and there was no doubt, there would be no mystery and therefore no need for faith." Um, I love Cecile's question about whether the ability to be in uncertainty is a strength or a deficit for a leader. I actually love the mysteries of faith.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but I am not sure, and I wanna ask you this as the org psychologist that you are. Um, I'm not sure that we're neurobiologically hardwired for the amount of uncertainty we're facing right now. I want all your thoughts.
- AGAdam Grant
That's-
- BBBrené Brown
I want your thoughts
- AGAdam Grant
... such a great topic.
- BBBrené Brown
I know. I want your thoughts on faith is only faith when it walks hand-in-hand with doubt, and I want your thoughts on our hardwiring for certainty.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I'm not qualified to weigh in on the first one 'cause I don't know anything about faith. Uh, I'll, I'll leave that one to you.
- BBBrené Brown
Were you raised with, are you raised, were you raised a- agnostic or atheist or just not, it, religion was not a big part?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I just, I just don't remember thinking much about it, talking much about it.
- BBBrené Brown
Got it.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think the second part, though, I, I have a fair amount, I have a reasonable amount of knowledge on, uh, but you can calibrate me. So-I'm not convinced.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Sorry, I love that. Throwback to the last episode on metacognition. We're calibrating each other. I like it. Go.
- AGAdam Grant
D- bring it on. You always calibrate me. Uh, and I think that's, that's one of the most fun things about learning from you is-
- BBBrené Brown
Same
- AGAdam Grant
... you are, you are not shy about saying, "Nah. Uh-uh. Nope. Nope. I don't think you got that right."
- BBBrené Brown
No, ne-
- AGAdam Grant
So-
- BBBrené Brown
... neither are you, and I... It would be so boring if we were.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] True. So I think we are absolutely hardwired for the level of uncertainty we're experiencing. I actually think we're hardwired for much more uncertainty than we're experiencing. I mean, can you imagine, like, if you think about where our hardwiring comes from, right, in our evolutionary history, imagine, like, not knowing at any moment in daily life if, [laughs] if there was gonna be, you know, a creature emerging from the jungle that would attack you, not knowing if all of a sudden the heavens would send a tsunami or an earthquake, uh, to destroy your, you know, your, your entire life. I think not only were there threats that we just had no tools, um, and, and systems to deal with, but we didn't even understand what was causing them. Like, think about all the diseases that people just died of, and they didn't know that germs were a thing. Um, they didn't know that [laughs] you needed, you needed to avoid eating certain plants, right? Like, there was tremendous uncertainty in daily life, and you could just be fine one moment and die the next moment and have no idea what the cause was gonna be. And I think we live in a much more certain, much more predictable world now than the world we were hardwired in. And so I would diagnose the problem differently. But let me-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... pause there. I'm really curious to hear your reaction.
- BBBrené Brown
No, keep going. I don't... I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm absorbing.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay. So, uh, I guess my, my differential, uh, the, the different lens I would bring, bring to this is to say I think we actually, what we lack is not the wiring, but rather the practice in dealing with uncertainty. Precisely because we have built a world that shields us from it, uh, that, like, any time there is a problem, we know where to turn. I think it's why so many people struggled with COVID is all of a sudden, like, you weren't sure if you could trust your doctor, maybe for the first time in your life. Or, you know, maybe when you've dealt with that in the past, you at least knew where to go for a second opinion, and you knew what specialist to see, and now you weren't even sure if those people were accurate. And I think that what we're facing now is a tension between our hardwiring, which is very much primed to respond to threats, and our experience, which doesn't necessarily equip us to deal with the kinds of threats and the sources un- of uncertainty that we're now facing, which would include AI, climate change, political instability and turbulence, and what have I forgotten?
- BBBrené Brown
I am really taking this in. I... Okay. I, I, yeah.
- 40:15 – 52:00
Intolerance for Uncertainty
- BBBrené Brown
lie. So can we agree that the brain, that our brains are wired to treat uncertainty as a threat?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
And that, that ambiguity activates the same neural stress response as danger, as physical danger, that ambiguity and physical danger are very similar in terms of our threat response to it?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, with the caveat that there are pretty strong individual differences. So if we allow for the fact that there are, there's a personality trait or two that will-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... lead some people to not treat uncertainty as a threat, yeah, I think on average, yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So let's talk about intolerance of uncertainty. Are you familiar with that field? Okay. Oh, boy. Uh, did y'all see that look? I hope y'all caught that look. Aaron, I want you to do a double zoom in on that look.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
That's the, that-
- AGAdam Grant
No
- BBBrené Brown
... that is the f- no, no, no. That is the frickin' Adam Grant, "Oh, yeah, let's go. You wanna dance?"
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"You wanna talk intolerance of uncertainty? You wanna talk, uh, you know, Robichaux? Like, let's, like, let's go." Okay. I, I know that look. I love this look. Okay, so let's just walk people through it. Um, so intolerance of uncertainty, a measurable cognitive vulnerability, not a personality weakness, right? That there is an intolerance for uncertainty, and that it drives a lot of the anxiety spectrum, right? Weigh in. Go ahead. You-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes, and it's, it's so pervasive that for people who have a, a strong intolerance for uncertainty, they would actually rather hear bad news or criticism than just not know. Like, certain negative information is more reassuring to them than uncertain, possibly positive information, which tells me this goes really deep. Like, [laughs] who, who would rather be told they sucked than just not get feedback? Somebody who does not like uncertainty.
- BBBrené Brown
Hey, um, I'd rather have bad new- I'd rather have bad news than no news. I mean, that, that's, like, that's the whole thing. I mean, I, I just did, um, we did a fun kind of launch for Maya Shankar's new book, and she was referencing, um, some uncertainty research about where there-You probably know this research. I don't know it that well, um, but I relate to it, where you had a choice of there's a 50/50% chance you'd get a shock or 100% chance that you'd get a shock. The majority of people chose the 100% -
- AGAdam Grant
100
- BBBrené Brown
... chance.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, of course.
- BBBrené Brown
Of course. Me too, me too
- AGAdam Grant
50/50, you suffer twice, right?
- BBBrené Brown
No. Yes. It w- so but what would you pick?
- AGAdam Grant
I think it depends on how severe the shock is.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, let's just say it's tolerable but uncomfortable.
- AGAdam Grant
I think if the shock is bad, you go for the 50/50.
- BBBrené Brown
But I'll say it's and, it's and to- it's, it's uncomfortable but tolerable. I mean, you're not gonna get-
- AGAdam Grant
I think-
- BBBrené Brown
... any of the shit through human sub- subjects, so let's say
- AGAdam Grant
... I think old me would've chosen the 100, and I hope new me would choose the 50/50.
- BBBrené Brown
So you have some empathy for people that I'd rather have bad news.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, yeah, I think I m- I might, I mean, I might still be one of them. I've been one of them [laughs] f- for a lot of my life, for sure. You?
- 52:00 – 59:50
Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty
- AGAdam Grant
leads us to dislike a lack of control. Having control might be the most important antidote that we have to the sense of uncertainty that people are struggling with.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. I mean, just give me my pocketbook and a protein bar and a Diet Coke. I will... I'll be up for anything, but I'm, I'm gonna have my own money, I'm gonna have my own protein bar, and I'm gonna have my own Diet Coke, and then we'll see how it goes. But at any point, I can tuck and roll and go. Like, that, that is just... That, I mean-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Why are you laughing?
- AGAdam Grant
Don't, don't roll, don't roll if the Diet Coke is open. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
No, I, I, I will always save the Diet Coke. Um, so, so, okay, so let me... This is so interesting. Um, I wanna read this research to you. Um, this is from Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance, which I l-
- AGAdam Grant
Ooh, yes
- BBBrené Brown
... I love a cross-cultural study. Okay, yeah. You are, you are looking like you are gunning for a conversation. I like it. I, I'm in, I'm in your territory here. I love it. Um, so the principle is that, and this is true across cultures, many cultures, his research, Hofstede's research found that entire societies are organized around managing uncertainty through religion, law, and technology. Okay, I'm gonna go on now, and I'm gonna move, I'm gonna move from Hofstede into c- Compensatory Control Theory, which I love-
- AGAdam Grant
Ah, McGregor
- BBBrené Brown
... which is the... Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause this is a part of Terror Management Theory. So okay, so let me just back it up. So let me just... We'll, we'll have an... In order to not, like, nerd out on y'all, like what just happened, example 1A, Adam Grant. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
You're just, you're just citing... Like, you're, you went right from, like, you went right from organizational behavior to psychology, and it's like you're, you are, you are in the center of my, my world.
- BBBrené Brown
In your universe. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Welcome to my playground.
- BBBrené Brown
Welcome. I think th- this is where the weirdos live and think. I like it. Um, but I'm gonna, we're gonna put all the references in, um, the notes, the show notes. Our, our team member Paul is amazing at doing that, so he will, he'll hook you up if you wanna nerd out. Okay. So Hofstede's research says that entire societies organize around managing uncertainty through religion, law, and technology. When uncertainty spikes, this is now going into control, kind of Compensatory Control Theory. When uncertainty spikes, economic threat, loss of control, humiliation, mortality reminders, mortality reminders-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... happening everywhere right now, this, the psychological demand for certainty-Does not just increase, it accelerates. And this is huge. This is, um, is it Jost? I always pronounce this researcher's name Jost.
- AGAdam Grant
Jost. Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, Jost. This is universal. No ideology, education level, or income bracket is immune. So we try to create certainty in societies with religion, law, and technology. When uncertainty spikes, the demand for certainty doesn't just go up, it accelerates. And this is universal across ideologies, education levels, and income brackets.
- AGAdam Grant
Which-
- BBBrené Brown
What clusterfuckery does this set us up for politically?
- AGAdam Grant
I mean, this is, this is the world we're seeing right now. What we're... I, I think it explains a lot of the polarization and extremism that we've been tracking across countries, which is, like, in response to increasing levels of uncertainty, one, you get what McGregor called defensive zeal, which is this kind of dif- it's a compensatory conviction response where like, "Okay, the, the world is, is unstable, and I'm not sure what's gonna happen, so I am going to cling to an ideology. Uh, I'm going to cling to a political tribe that gives me a sense of coherence and order." Um, and-
- BBBrené Brown
It's like a buoy in an ocean.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. It, that's a-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I think that's a great metaphor for it, for it, "And I won't let it go, because it is my survival raft." I think the other thing it gives us is something we didn't touch on in our conversation about narf- narcissistic leadership in our third episode, which is, like, this is, under uncertainty, that's when people gravitate toward authoritarians and narcissists who peddle certainty, who promise that they have all the answers, um, who are, are basically [laughs] they're, they're charlatans and snake oil salespeople. Uh, and yet, like, they are more appealing to people... This is some brand-new research that's come out in the last year or so. Um, that leadership, authoritarian leadership, um, leadership that's high certainty, is more appealing to people who have low self-esteem, who are searching for somebody that will make them feel like, "Yeah, I can handle the challenges. We are in good hands." And it's almost like it's, um, they're, they're getting, they're getting lulled into a false sense of security and safety by people who are overconfident, um, and persuading them that, like, "Yeah, yeah." Like, "I, I will take care of everything," um, as opposed to just accepting, like, the world is complex, it's messy, we're not sure exactly what's gonna happen.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, my God.
- AGAdam Grant
Sound familiar-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- 59:50 – 1:05:00
How Can We Manage Uncertainty
- AGAdam Grant
is, you know, it's dangerous in terms of who we let run our workplaces. It's dangerous in terms of who [laughs] we let run our countries, and it's something that we don't have great societal solutions to. It's like, well, low- lower the threat level. Good luck with that one. [laughs] Like, how are we, how are we gonna solve that at-
- BBBrené Brown
And, yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... a country or a societal scale? So Brené, I wanna ask you, as a social worker, like, how do you think about what we can do in, you know, in our own lives and in the, the local systems that we actually do have influence over, with our teams, with our families, to manage the uncertainty level so that it doesn't become, um, an overwhelming threat?
- BBBrené Brown
So I think the two things that come up for me that are both kind of research-based, um, right off the bat, is critical thinking education and everything that this administration has banned, critical theory, critical thinking. Um, I, I think that there is, um-There are a lot, I think there's evidence that to be able to think critically and through a systems theory lens, like we used to teach our students follow the money. You know, just, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's so I think some critical thinking. I think, um, intellectual humility. I also think building connection and community. So I think when community connection and community trust is high, I think we're less, um... Our susceptibility is lower when we have levels of community trust. This is an idea that I didn't, I had never heard of, and I'm so interesting. I really hope you know it. Do you know inoculation and pre-bunking?
- AGAdam Grant
As a, as a way to fight disinformation? Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm thinking of, uh, Sander van der Linden, for example.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes. Yes. I don't know how you do that. It's wild to me. So learning to recognize manipulation techniques, not just specific false claims, before you're exposed to them. So I think the studies that I came across and read, and I'm gonna fully just say I just read abstracts, and then next, I read the top and the bottom, which I know is dangerous in itself. But this idea that not to teach people the content of what false ideas are, but to help to teach pre-bunking by teaching them most common ways misinfor- misinformation is distributed. What do you know about it? Tell us about it, 'cause it's, like I want my kids to have this. I want this.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I mean, some of this is, is basic media literacy training, right? To interrogate sources as opposed to just accepting them. Um, to have, to have standards of evidence and say, "Okay, [laughs] let me, let me see. Like is this claim backed by a, you know, a randomized controlled trial or by a longitudinal study? Uh, if not, [laughs] it might just be someone's opinion." I think that we spend so much time [laughs] putting out like little fires as opposed to zooming out and asking, "What is causing the forest fire?" Right? Like the, the problem that we need to solve is not like there's a specific piece of misinformation that people are buying into. It's that people lack the tools to evaluate information accurately.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And also, sometimes they lack the motivation to evaluate it accurately. There was, um, there was some research that Jay Van, Van Bavel turned me on to showing that like you could get people to be less likely to f- spread fake news, demonstrably false information, uh, on, on social media just by prompting them to consider, is this true? And that people weren't-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Like by default, they weren't thinking about, like is this accurate? They think, they were thinking about, "Well, could this be true, or is this interesting? Is this going to get me likes and shares?" And so they just kind of instinctively posted it or reposted it. And just getting them to pause and reflect and ask the question, "Is this true?" was enough to reduce the rate of, of spreading bad information. And so I think that this is partially a skill problem. It's partially a moti- motivation problem.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I mean, the algorithms are not, don't reward truth and complexity. The algorithms reward misinformation, vitriol. Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think it's, I think it's, i- it's... And, and I will say that like AI and unskilled users of AI, AI can be so sycophantic that you can really go in and I will just tell, I mean, I think I've told you this before. We did all of the lit review with human researchers and a parallel team that was using just AI for the lit review. And 60 to 70% of the sources, including a source that said, had Brown and Grant as in MIT Sloan,
- 1:05:00 – 1:07:53
Closing
- BBBrené Brown
was com-
- AGAdam Grant
We've never, we've never written together
- BBBrené Brown
... We've never... Was completely a hallucination, and AI gave the same weight to a real peer-reviewed academic article as it did, you know, Reddit user-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... I got a new boat, you know? And so I think this is an interesting conversation. Um, we're at the end of time. I do want to thank the people who are writing in questions and comments and, you know, taking the time just to say, to give feedback on the podcast, which we're, we love and we're open to. And also, you know, writing things like, "Hey, I want you to go deeper here," or, "I disagree with this. Can y'all revisit it and think about this perspective?" Um, I'm so grateful for that. I love, I miss community of discourse and debate and ideas 'cause it's not, just harder to find these days. So I'm grateful for that. What are you grateful for today?
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, well, I, I, I don't wanna be redundant, but I, I'm actually grateful to have a, an audience of people with us and a partner in, what's the opposite of crime? [laughs] In, in, in attempting-
- BBBrené Brown
Um..
- AGAdam Grant
... to offer something useful to the world.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
A partner in detective work, uh, wh- whatever it is, um, who, who don't take uncertainty as a threat, but take it as an occasion for curiosity, and I think that, you know, that's, that's part of what this show is about. I think that it's so easy to cling to the comfort of certainty and ignore the discomfort of doubt. But I think doubt is where the learning happens, and it's-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh
- AGAdam Grant
... it's often the engine of curiosity.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
We need more of it.
- BBBrené Brown
100%. 100%. And I know that you're not a faith person, but can I just share one quote before we go by my-
- AGAdam Grant
Do it
- BBBrené Brown
... one of my faith, my faith mentors, Father Richard Rohr? Um, I thought it w- it just reminded me of us a little bit. Um, it's, uh, he writes, this is Richard Rohr's writing, "My scientist friends have come up with things like principles of uncertainty and dark holes. They're willing to live inside imagined hypotheses and theories, but many religious folks insist on answers that are always true. We love closure, resolution, and clarity while thinking that we are the people of faith. How strange that the very word faith has come to mean its opposite."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
It's interesting. We can agree on that, I think.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I did not expect to get w- my now new favorite take on scientific thinking and uncertainty from a religious figure. Well played.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Richard, [laughs] Richard Rohr. All right, I'll see you next time. [bell dings] [upbeat music] The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education & Research Group and Grant Ed Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 1:07:54
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