The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantWhat Great Teams Teach Us About Trust, Grief, and Courage | The Curiosity Shop
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55 min read · 10,702 words- 0:00 – 1:18
Welcome to The Curiosity Shop
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, everyone. In today's episode of The Curiosity Shop, Adam and I are... There's really very little that we're not talking about in this episode. We, um, I'm wearing my Spurs hat today, uh, it's celebrating, and I think he's wearing a Pistons jersey 'cause he looks cute in it, but who knows? Um, but I will say that we are talking about everything from the incredible culture that the Spurs have built. We're talking about what happens when shame seeps into cultures, sports cultures, but also home, work, um, faith communities. We are talking about hard stuff. We're talking about gun reform. We're talking about grief related to everything from miscarriage, death by suicide, what grief looks like, why we need community, um, what it means to build families and cultures that are made equally of strength and kindness, and how that's really missing from a lot of what we need today, um, to deal with both the joyful things in our lives and the really hard things in our lives. We're glad you're here. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. [upbeat music]
- 1:18 – 7:37
The Spurs, Popovich & Psychological Safety
- BBBrené Brown
Hi, Adam.
- AGAdam Grant
Hey, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
How are you?
- AGAdam Grant
I'm good. How are you?
- BBBrené Brown
Good. We were just doing this funny thing. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring you into the podcast. Okay, you have to choose, LEGO or DUPLO?
- AGAdam Grant
LEGO. More creativity.
- BBBrené Brown
L- LEGO or Lincoln Logs?
- AGAdam Grant
I think, I think when I was three it was definitely Lincoln Logs, but since then it's been LEGOs. You?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I'm gonna say DUPLO over LEGO. DUPLO over Lincoln Logs, and then Tinker Toys. Do you remember Tinker Toys?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
Tinker Toys were, like, long color-coded sticks that almost looked like really skinny wooden straws, and then the joining, the joining piece was a circle-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... a wood circle that was w- wood colored that had circles all arou- holes all around it and a hole on the top. And those were-
- AGAdam Grant
I remember those
- BBBrené Brown
... my least favorite. Yeah. Do you re- And they used, they came in a big can. Similar, similar, I think, to Lincoln Lo- Lincoln Logs came in a can, right?
- AGAdam Grant
They did. Wait, why DUPLOs?
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I'm a rounded corner person, because remember, I see things in shapes. Um, and I think, um, rounded corners convey more emotional, uh, intelligence and regulation than square corners.
- AGAdam Grant
And less pain when you step on them.
- BBBrené Brown
And less pain. Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. I grew up with very LEGO-y kids, so I, I know the real pain of the... And, and it's not just the mound of them, it's the stray LEGO that'll kill you when you step on it 'cause you're not expecting it.
- AGAdam Grant
It's the worst. Did you see the LEGO slippers that got released a few years ago?
- BBBrené Brown
No, what?
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] It's an extra-
- BBBrené Brown
Wait, what?
- AGAdam Grant
... padded pai- it's an extra padded pair of LEGO-branded slippers so that if you walk around a room full of LEGOs, it doesn't cause you severe pain.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, two inventions that I think I wish I had with my kids: one, the LEGO slipper for sure. Two, now they have these mats where you do your LEGOs on mats and then you just pick up the mat.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
You know what I mean? Like, you just do the-
- AGAdam Grant
That's so clever. What-
- BBBrené Brown
The f- the four corners of the mat tie up into a LEGO, like, a LEGO basketball, like, basket thing.
- AGAdam Grant
W- how long did it take us to think of this?
- 7:37 – 9:28
Why Caring Takes Courage
- BBBrené Brown
There was also when the Spurs beat Oklahoma, there was some f- th- footage of Wemby's, like, sheer emotion, just cr- sobbing, hugging people. And now there's been this real flooding of social media around this meme of nonchalant is over, caring is in. And to me, his ability to be emotional and to care out loud is inextricably connected to the safety he talks about in that team culture. Does that make sense to you?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it does, because he doesn't have to worry about being judged for, for what he's expressing, whether it's, like, a, an u- unapologetic ambition, or, like, the joy of victory, or the disappointment of defeat.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, that, that's exactly it. It's interesting 'cause we, we joke about chalant, nonchalant in our organization all the time 'cause the, y- they're always... You know, and I had to look it up. It's, the definition is coolness, indifference, and unconcern, um, from 16- the 1670s from French nonchalant meaning careless. And it's like my team has told me on a number of occasions, "You try very hard to be nonchalant about things, and you are chal- you are chalant AF, Brené." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
You are as chalant as it gets. [laughs] And so, so I-
- AGAdam Grant
That's so true
- BBBrené Brown
... I have... Yeah, so I have come into my own- or my ownership of being chalanty. Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But
- 9:28 – 13:47
The Courage to Share Your Goals
- BBBrené Brown
I, I think it's interesting because, you know, both of my kids played sports, and it mattered to my kids a lot. And I remember... And they, you know, and they had to try out for teams, and they had to go up for captain, and they had to, you know, you know... Charlie really ha- Charlie had some college offers to play, um, and he had to do a lot of hard thinking. But I often told them, "Letting the people n- around you that you trust know how much you want something is courage." That is brave. To say, "I want this, and it's important to me," when you can't control the outcome, to me, is one of the best indicators of the relationship between vulnerability and courage.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow, that's fascin- Okay, I've never thought about this. So once you put your goals out there, you're taking a risk because then if you fall short, everyone is gonna know that, that [laughs] not, not only did you, did you fail, but now you're gonna feel something that you might not have been comfortable revealing.
- BBBrené Brown
People will know you're hurting.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
People will know-
- AGAdam Grant
I've never thought about that as courage, to put it out there
- BBBrené Brown
... Oh, yeah. I mean, it wasn't... It, it was, like, for me, where my kids applied for college or tried out for a team or, you know, Ellen ran for president of the student council. Like, whatever it was, you know, it... I had to pull them aside and interject the pause that I talk about all the time and just say, "I know you're caught up in this moment and you're grinding to achieve something, but I wanna pause you here and talk about how brave it is not only to put yourself out there, but to let people around you know something's important to you." You know, and it didn't always go their way for either one of my kids, you know? And so then to do it another time, it's just... It doesn't go o- It doesn't go our way every time.
- AGAdam Grant
This is-
- BBBrené Brown
Um, for any of us.
- AGAdam Grant
No, go ahead. Sorry.
- BBBrené Brown
Go ahead.
- AGAdam Grant
After you.
- BBBrené Brown
No, and I think, I think Wemby let the world know, and I think I'm probably... You know, I talk a lot about the relationship between vulnerability and boundaries, and I don't think you have to let the world know. But letting the people who are real marble jar people, the people with whom you've built a lot of trust, letting those folks know it matters, um-I think is real... It's just, I find it very admirable and very courageous
- AGAdam Grant
This is, this is such a, like such a, [laughs] it's such a new way of thinking about sharing your goals for me. And it, it's actually helping me resolve, uh, actually a, a puzzle that's, that's bothered me for a long time. So there's, uh, I'm sure you've seen decades of research on the power of making your goals public, that when you tell the people around you what you're trying to accomplish, you get a great combination of support and accountability. You have people encouraging you, you also have people checking in with you to make sure that you're, you know, you're not, you're not falling off the path that you're trying to take. And yet, [laughs] despite that, so often people are reluctant to put their goals out there, and they end up kind of dreaming in private, and I've never understood why that is until now. Like, I've never thought about the risk of having to say, "Yeah, like I, I wanted to go to that school and I didn't get in. I wanted that job, and I got rejected for it. I wanted to, to win, and I lost." That's a hard thing to put yourself out there for.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, my God, it, it, it, it is. [sighs] It is, and I've, I've, I've been on every side of it that I can think of. I have expressed something that I really wanted, and, you know, it was interesting, like I, I go back to
- 13:47 – 17:55
Brené's Story of Rejection and Failure
- BBBrené Brown
when Daring Greatly came out. I, I told Steve... I might cry. I don't know. I'm gonna see if I can work through it. But, um, I told Steve how much I, how much I wanted the real New York book tour experience. And so h- he got a fancy hotel room for me and surprised me for launch day in New York. And I got there, and I got a new outfit, and I went, and I remember waking up on pub day and Murdoch calling and saying, "Everyone turned down the opportunity e, to interview you. There's nothing... Yeah, there's..." And I, in that moment, I sat in my hotel room for two days and not a single media interview.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, no.
- BBBrené Brown
And yeah. And I remember, oh, c- I cried and cried, and I remember, like, having so many moments of regret about telling, you know, in my fancy hotel room that Steve surprised me with, like telling how much I regretted telling him and my kids and Murdoch how much I wanted that. But then at the same time, they were the ones that were like, "Fuck everybody. It's a great book." You know? And [laughs] obviously probably including my children. Um, but then it, then it, you know, caught on later, but in that moment, it was, it was so tough, and I remember kind of the shame of, would this have been easier had I acted like it was no big deal? 'Cause I was raised in a family where you never ever act like anything's a big deal, so that if you lose, you can say you didn't care.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
It's hard.
- AGAdam Grant
That is really hard. I... One, I'm, I'm sorry that happened. That's just, I mean, the image-
- BBBrené Brown
No, I'm kidding
- AGAdam Grant
... of you sitting alone [laughs] in a hotel room is so sad.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs] In, in a fancy hotel room, too. And then, then I was like, "I don't think we can afford this, and I definitely can't afford the room service." [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, it's painful. It's-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... it's a little, a little bit easier to, to stomach knowing ultimately what happened. [laughs] Obviously you've-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... you've done the New York book tour more than once.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And are probably over it by now. But-
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I never take it for granted anymore.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, clearly, I mean, uh, the, right, that's the, that must be burned into your brain.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
That, that sensation. But it is, it is a, it's a bit of a paradox because at some level, you're right. If you hadn't told them, you wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with. But on the other hand, if you hadn't told them, you would've missed out on their understanding and empathy and compassion.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, it's true, and I remember the fir- I remember getting pregnant with Ellen and calling my sisters and my mom. I told them, like, at a... We went to go eat Mexican food in Houston and, um, I gave them these little James Avery charms as a surprise. And I said, "It's really early, and I'm scared to tell you, and I wanted to wait to tell you until, you know, we got further along through the first trimester, but I figured if it, if, if something happens to the pregnancy, I'm gonna need you to know because you're the ones I'm gonna need to call. So here's a charm, and don't get it soldered on," the, the, the very historic James Avery charm bracelet. "Here's the charm, but don't get it soldered on until I get to, like, 16 weeks."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"But I want you to know now and celebrate now because if things go wrong, you'll be the people I call."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
And, and, and then, and, you know, my mom was very, you know, "So should we temper our responses?" [laughs] 'Cause this was the first grandchild maybe, and I said, "No, no, let's celebrate. Um, but just know that this ride will go both ways if, if it, and for, if it, if it does."
- AGAdam Grant
This is, this is such a, this
- 17:55 – 20:57
Pregnancy, Miscarriage & Who We Tell
- AGAdam Grant
is such a challenge around pregnancy because-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... so, [sighs] you know, I, I ne- I n- I never thought about it through this lens, but, um, Allison comes from a healthcare background. And so when we were expecting, like, her first thought was, "Don't tell anyone in case, like, something is wrongBecause then you don't have control over who you share your news with, right?
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
You're, you're then forced to tell everybody, "Yeah, we lost the baby."
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
So what happens? You wait. But in our case, um, Allison ended up having a miscarriage.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And then no one knew. Like, no one knew that she was pregnant to begin with, and then it was this extra burden to have to say, "Yeah, we kept this from you, and, like, now we're grieving this loss that you didn't even know we had."
- BBBrené Brown
God, that's hard.
- AGAdam Grant
And it was, it, it was definitely, it was, it was painful on multiple levels. And I think once we finally started sharing it with a few people, we discovered tons of people we knew had gone through miscarriages and never told anyone. And this was-
- BBBrené Brown
I-
- AGAdam Grant
It was a topic that there's so much silence around. I'm like, "Okay, there will come a day when we are grateful this happened, because we will have a child that we wouldn't have had if not for this. But until that day comes, like, this is gonna hurt, and nobody talks about it. Like, everyone is grieving in silence."
- BBBrené Brown
I think, first, I'm sorry that you and Allison went through that. I think it is a q- one of the most complicated griefs that we don't talk about, so I'm really sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
Thank you.
- BBBrené Brown
That's, it's hard. I, I have to tell you that miscarriage and infertility was the hardest shame research that I did in my career. Potentially combined with living through death by suicide as a family member. But I mean, that level of grief, shame, silence, judgment, the cognitive and emotional who do we tell, who do we not tell? You're right. It's just-
- AGAdam Grant
It-
- BBBrené Brown
And I don't, I don't know why... That's why I, I do, I think we have to think about it in a more granular way maybe. Like concentric circles. Like, here's the core group of people that we wanna celebrate with and that we will also grieve with. Here's the next group that we maybe don't, you know? And, and we think about the roles that people play in our lives. I don't know.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, okay, so a couple things that, that jump to mind on this.
- 20:57 – 28:25
The Kvetching Circle: Comfort In, Dump Out
- AGAdam Grant
The first is I'm thinking about the, The Kvetching Circle. Do you know this?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. The, yes, yes, the, the, like the Yiddish word kvetching.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. There's a, there's a circle that a therapist draws, um, where you look at the person who's closest to the pain, and then you draw the concentric circles around it, and the principle that I loved was, um, you comfort in, and you dump out. And-
- BBBrené Brown
[gasps]
- AGAdam Grant
I'm like, "Oh, people, like, people need to be taught this," because, like, so often-
- BBBrené Brown
Walk us through it. Walk us through it, though, before-
- AGAdam Grant
Well, it's-
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause I, I'd heard of it, but I'd only heard the in part.
- AGAdam Grant
The, yeah, I think-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay, walk me through the circles.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I, I mean, I think it's, like, if we, if we take the example of, of miscarriage, like, Allison's at the center of that circle, and so my job as, you know, as her husband is to comfort the person who's closer to it and make it clear to her that I am there to support her, and then not lean on her to support me, because she's suffering more intensely than I am. What I'm [laughs] supposed to do is dump out. Find people who are in outer rings of the circle to tell them what I'm going through. And I think people really struggle with this because, like, in a relationship, like, we're, we're supposed to be grieving together, and so, you know, my, my, I guess my impulse in that kind of situation would be to say, like, "Hey, here's, you know, here's how I'm struggling." But she's already carrying a lot, and so I don't wanna burden her with having to take care of my emotions at the same time that she's managing hers. And so I, I, I think this, I mean, I think about this all the time when any, whenever somebody goes through something hard. I'm like, "Okay," like, yes, I think we all know to comfort the person who's closer, but, like [laughs] let's dump outside the circle, the inner circle, so that that person is not stuck in a position where they're, they're having to, like, to, to care as well as be cared for. That, that seems like it gets missed a lot.
- BBBrené Brown
I, I think, yeah, I, I have to, it's gonna take me a long time to process this, um, because I think in some of my hardest moments, it was interesting 'cause I go to when my, when my sisters and I were caregiving for my mom through her dementia, and how... It was so, we, we really, I think it, 'cause we'd been in a lot of therapy together, and we work together, so we've learned how to talk about hard things together, um, how we said to each other that we're, we're all in our own grief, which makes taking care of each other in this situation almost impossible. That we can be empathetic with each other, and we can share stories, but none of us are in the position to care for each other, because we're each, like, I, I'm having a hard time putting you on my back and carrying you because my grief is about 50 cinder blocks tied around my shoulders right now. And so I think, um, I mean, I think it's lucky that we all do therapy, and we, I can say that because we talk about, we've talked about it on the podcast before, so it's not like I'm outing my sisters that, I mean, one of my sisters is a therapist, so, um, but I think-I think it also explains the rates of divorce after the death of a child.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
That I think, how do you, how do you care for someone else when you're... You know, which is miscarriage too. I mean, you know, which is I think about the, the definition we use of grief in our work, 'cause I was trying to figure out the best definition in the literature, and then when I did the qualitative analysis, it was, like, three things, kind of longing, lost, like, this, th- there was this, like, very sen- deep sense of, "I don't have a mooring. I've lost... Like, I, I'm untethered from what I would define as my ordinary life, which I thought was ordinary 'til now, and now I'm desperate to get back to it," and this kind of unmet longing for something. Um, it's really hard to be grounding for someone when you don't have footing.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes. Say that... Wait, say that again.
- BBBrené Brown
It's really hard to provide a source of grounding and tethering for someone when you are completely not grounded or tethered to your own life. Like, how, how do you... That's just not the way gravity works. So gravity, neither gravity nor grief work that way. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
No, and I think this is one of the reasons why I, I feel like I know a lot of couples who basically are each other's primary and sometimes only source of all emotional support. And [laughs] like, you need other people that you can both rely on, like, not just to complain about each other, [laughs] but also-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... because there will be times when you're both hurting, and one of you is not in a position to care for the other or, or in both directions for that matter.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. I think the whole, I think f- finding... That's why I, you know, and again, I think it's such, it's such an access issue, but finding good therapists, good coaches, um, if I could wave a healthcare wand, it'd, it'd be in my top three things that I would want to provide for everybody, just access to, um, to be able to sit across from someone who when you're untethered and you can't find the ground can provide an opportunity to talk through how to get back there, you know, that's not directly connected to your own grief, you know? Or fear, anxiety, whatever it is. I think it's, that should not be privileged.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And we've lost community. We've lost community, and we've lost multi-generational living, and we've lost a lot of the things that provided it before it became professionalized. So I do think it's part of the loneliness.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think so too, and I think one of the things that that community used to do was, like, give you an outlet for the longing that you're describing. Like, a lot of, I, I've noticed that, like, when people go through loss, whether it's, you know, the, the death of a loved one or, like, even, you know, in some cases, uh, like, just a relationship that ends and it's more, you know, ambiguous loss, no one asks you about it. They, like, if, th-
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
And it's strange because, like, they think that they're being polite and maybe even respectful to not remind you, and the reality is that then you never had to have a chance to share it. You never have a chance to talk about those memories, to, [laughs] to, to reminisce about the person. And [laughs] I'm just thinking about, uh,
- 28:25 – 34:39
Grief as Unexpressed Love
- AGAdam Grant
the, the great psychologist Andrew Garfield, [laughs] Spider-Man, who-
- BBBrené Brown
Spider-Man
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I thought had the, the most beautiful reframe of grief that I've ever heard, uh, when I, I remember seeing him on Colbert actually I think, when he lost his mother. And he said that for him, grief was unexpressed love.
- BBBrené Brown
Mm.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, he was, like, he was overwhelmed with all of the feelings of love that he was never gonna be able to show to her, which, yeah, one, heartbreaking, but, but two, like, people need to express that love, right? Like, I'm sure he would wanna be asked about her so he could talk about why she was so special to him. And I, I'm just thinking, you know, your comment about the loss of community. Like, if you're not around people who also knew the person you lost, then when are you gonna talk about them? When are you gonna express the love that you didn't get to share directly? [upbeat music] Support for the show comes from Quince. Is there anything better than summer? Long days, warm nights, the barbecues, the beach days. You just have to make sure you have the right wardrobe for the occasion, one that's both chic and breezy. For that, look no further than Quince. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces, like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear, and their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands, and it's not just clothing. Quince has become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. I've been looking at their expandable luggage and also their performance tech shorts. They look perfect for my next tennis or padel match or my first pickleball match against Brené, if that ever happens. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/curiosity for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too.That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/curiosity for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/curiosity
- BBBrené Brown
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- AGAdam Grant
No, but I want to.
- BBBrené Brown
Attend, attend funerals.
- AGAdam Grant
Really?
- BBBrené Brown
If you can, geographically, to attend the funerals that matter to the people with whom you work.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
And, and I just remember doing a Dare to Lead intervention at a big tech company, um, and hearing a story about... I, I think, I don't know if this matters, but to me, for some reason, it prob- we can... Obviously, it mattered because she was the only woman on a software engineering team, and her sister died by suicide. And very few people showed up at the funeral, which is not unusual in a death by suicide, and it's... And I don't... I, I think sometimes we can say it's because people are, think they're being respectful or not by wa- not wanting to bring it up, but sometimes it's people being comfortable in their own, you know?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
People privileging their comfort over other people's grief and needs. And she said when she walked in, her entire team was there, including two people who'd flown in.
- AGAdam Grant
Amazing.
- BBBrené Brown
Then when she... Oh, yeah, she said, she, she said it, it was one of the most important moments of her life. Then she said on her first day back to work, she was so stressed out about how to bring it up, but her team leader said, "We wanna let you know that we are excited that you're back. We've all talked, and we are ready to talk about this, and we are ready
- 34:39 – 35:03
howing Up at Funerals Builds Trust
- BBBrené Brown
to not talk about it. But we are comfortable talking about it, and we are comfortable not talking about it, and we will follow your lead." Like...
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] That's a masterclass in emotional intelligence right there.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, it, it... Yeah, it's just, it, it, it's incredible. Um, the second experience I had was maybe
- 35:03 – 42:40
Sandy Hook, Loss & Human Connection
- BBBrené Brown
in the top, if not the... Maybe, yeah, maybe the most difficult professional experience I've had in my life, which was being invited to spend some time with the parents at Sandy Hook.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
And [clears throat] I have very strong feelings about gun reform. As someone who was basically raised in a hunting blind, like, I am not anti-gun ownership. I shot skeet growing up. Thought for a while I'd go to college on a shooting scholarship. Like, I, I, I, I, you know, like, I was raised in a gun family, a hunting family, a s- a sh- a skeet and trap family, but I have always been a huge believer in gun reform as a result of that, actually, not despite that. And so when Sandy Hook happened, um, they were first graders who were killed, and my son was in first grade. And so when I got invited to go, I was in a car going to Sandy Hook from New York, and I had m- kind of one of my first professional full-blown panic attacks. And I called Steve, and I was like, "I can't do this. I can't. It's too close. I can't do it. I'm scared. I can't do it. What am I gonna say? What am I..." You know, I, I don't know. And one of the things that really struck me is he's like, "You know exactly how to do thisIt's just you know how to do this. Like, this is who, this is who you are. And I was like, "I don't know, I don't know if this is helpful, but I'm gonna just, I'm gonna believe it anyway." So when I got there, they had pictures of their kids who had been killed, and I fumbled in my bag and pulled out my phone and showed them a picture of my kids. And just intuitively and responsively, irresponsively re- what's the word I'm looking? Intuitively and reflect- flexively, like in a, just it was a reflex 'cause we were sharing pictures of children. And two of the parents started crying.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
And I said, "I'm so sorry," 'cause, you know, my children are still alive, right? And I thought, "I've done something," and they said, "You are the first person that we've showed pictures of our kids to who looked at us in this very normal, human way and said, 'Let me show you pictures of my kids.' And we wanna see pictures of your kids because it helps us understand that you know what it means to show the picture of our kids who have been killed." And it was just this moment where, like, I remember one of the parents saying to me, "If I go to a restaurant and I'm crying, everyone looks at me with pity. And if I go and I'm laughing, they look at me like, 'Don't you care about what happened?'" And so it's like this loss of normalcy where we participate by not saying things like, "Wow, I, I, I, I had a, I had a really big memory of so-and-so today and how he used to run down the soccer field." Like, as if, if we say that, they'll all be, "Oh, I forgot completely that I had, you know, this happen." So it's what you're saying about community in a way, it's like, it's like what we try to mimic with, in social work with wraparound services. [laughs] You know? It's like we try to mimic community with wraparound services where community is the ultimate wraparound service, right?
- AGAdam Grant
That's right. I, I can't believe you went. I just, just imagining going into that room, like the, I mean, the just I think about the, like the empathic distress of sitting with people who have faced the most unimaginable, horrific thing and then also feeling like, well, what, how do I help? Like, what, what could I possibly offer here? What did you do?
- BBBrené Brown
Listened, cried, laughed, told stories, listened to stories, um, and talked about how the, one of the things that we ta- we don't talk about with grief a lot is the loss of ordinary, the loss of normal, the thing that we diminish the whole time when everything's going okay, how we re- we're resentful of our small lives and the rituals that make up our small lives until the moment those things are gone and then all we really want is the ordinary part of our lives back. And so I don't, I, I, the only thing I'm sure of, the only thing I'm 100% sure of about that work, and I, I, I went several times, is it changed me more than I could ever change them. And look, if we're not willing to consider gun reform after Sandy Hook, then I'm clear. Don't, don't talk about our love for children as a nation. Like, don't, don't, don't waste your bullshit on me. Take it somewhere else because there's a way to think about gun ownership as a responsibility, not a right. And as someone who's raised, again, in a family where you couldn't shoot anything you couldn't take apart and put back together again and you couldn't kill anything that you didn't field dress and eat, um, there's probably a big collection of us that grew up like that that are probably the biggest supporters of gun reform.
- AGAdam Grant
Especially in a country where the overwhelming majority of both Republicans and Democrats favor simple interventions like universal background checks.
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, that's, yeah. Like, like, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, we're, we're well above 80%.
- BBBrené Brown
Right.
- AGAdam Grant
Like [laughs] what? This should not be hard.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, so it... No. It's just, yeah. So I think it was a very meaningful experience for me. I still am in touch with several of them, and I think about it all the time. And I think about what a privilege to be invited.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Really just, yeah. But it was, it was scary because this is the whole thing about empathy and love and community is when we choose our own comfort over being there for someone else, things break. Just things break. Big things. Hard things. What a wild ride this has been from the Spurs.
- AGAdam Grant
Spurs. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I'll tell, I'll tell you what, though.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I actually have a bridge back to that, which is I, I have-
- BBBrené Brown
I will walk over it with you, Adam Grant
- AGAdam Grant
... here we go. Ready?
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I was actually thinking that one of the ways that you know whether teammates really trust each other is whether they show up for each other when something hard happens personally.
- BBBrené Brown
Um, I think that's true. And
- 42:40 – 44:40
Grief in Teams and Organizations
- BBBrené Brown
here's the other thing. You can also evaluateThe leadership of a team by how willing they are to excavate the grief that's in the locker room, and not just about losing, but I mean, like, I think about, you know, I'm a big Liverpool fan. Arne Slot was just let go by Liverpool. And I think about the work that needs to be done with that team, not on the pitch, but off the pitch, about the death of one of the, one of the closest brothers on that team and his, and his younger brother that were killed. You know? And how much of that work did they surface and do? And, and this is, this is everything we're talking about right here. If you'll allow me just a one-minute soliloquy here. This mythology that if I don't mention the miscarriage, it won't hurt. Wrong. The idea that if I say something to you when you come back from leave about, "I'm really sorry to hear about your dad," that that's being, you know, generous. And then the idea that if we don't talk to the players about the, the, the grief they're drowning in about the loss of a teammate, that it's better for performance. Like, this is mythologies of comfort. These are not... This is not how we work as humans.
- AGAdam Grant
Not even close. And, you know, it's,
- 44:40 – 51:07
Gregg Popovich's Leadership Philosophy
- AGAdam Grant
uh, I mean, this, this actually takes us back to Gregg Popovich. As a coach, one of my favorite things that he did was when looking at who he wanted on his team, you know, obviously taking talent into account, he said he looked for players who enjoyed other people's success, who were sitting on the bench cheering when their teammates scored. And, like, in psychology, that's called empathetic joy. And [laughs] the idea that you could be as excited for somebody else's success as you were for your own is just a core signal that you are interested in being a good teammate. And I think you could pay just as much attention to, do you hurt when other people are hurting?
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I, I... And, and, and let me ask you this 'cause this is an important distinction. I wanna, I wanna, I want us to, to dig in here. Do you hurt when other people are hurting? And is that different than do you show up for other people when they're hurting? Is it a difference between cognitive and affective empathy?
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
Say more because-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I-
- BBBrené Brown
Do, do you have to hurt when other people are hurting?
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
Or do you have to hold space for other people who are hurting and be with them in their hurt?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I think we're both all in on the latter. You, you do not have to feel other people's feelings to care about their feelings, and sometimes it's easiest to show care for their feelings when you don't feel it personally.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I think that's true.
- AGAdam Grant
Because then you're not carrying-
- BBBrené Brown
I think that's important
- AGAdam Grant
... the cinder blocks that you were talking about earlier.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. Right, and if you are because you're affected by it, then you have to acknowledge the cinder block. So I think, I think this is a really strong point on what happens if you have... You know, so affective empathy and cognitive empathy, just the quick differentiator. Cognitive empathy is understanding, you know, intellectually what you're going through and being with you in that. Affective empathy is taking on what you're feeling, and that can lead to burnout and really har- and hard things. And so... And I think it's really interesting, empathetic joy is such a Popovich move. The other Popovich move that I think goes along with that, there are so many we could be here all day on, on, and on great things he does. He also scouted for diversity in playing styles, in did you-- have you only played in US college, or do you come from international play? Um, Becky Hammon, first woman to be an assistant coach in the NBA, brought her on. He also... And he and his coaching staff, he hired intentionally people who disagreed with him. He did not want people who just out of reverence agreed with everything he said. I, I wanna talk about something that's on... It, it's, like, 30 feet long and 20 feet high in the Spurs locker room, and it's been there for three decades, and it's, it's a quote, um, that Popovich had made into a wall. Um, it's from Jacob Riis, who was an early 20th century Danish American photographer, reformist. Um, and here, here's what the quote says. I think you'll love this. Do you know it?
- AGAdam Grant
No, tell me.
- BBBrené Brown
Adam, you don't? Okay. "When nothing seems to help, I go and look at a stonecutter hammering away at his rock, perhaps a hundred times, without as much as a crack showing in it. Yet at the hundredth and first blow, it will split in two. And I know it was not that blow that did it, but all that had gone before." Oh, God.
- AGAdam Grant
So good.
- BBBrené Brown
Such... It's so good around, I think, kindness and love-Wins when coupled with discipline and commitment. And the thing, you know, as a, as... You know, I'm a San Antonian. My, my, my parents were from, are from San Antonio. I was born in San Antonio. I think as long as I can think back on the Spurs and, and, you know, and Popovich, the three words that come to mind are discipline, commitment, not compliance, but commitment, and love. And every team I've worked with that worked from that ethos has had ex- incredible winning experiences. Not every season and not ev- all the time, 'cause it doesn't, doesn't work like that. But to me, we started this conversation interestingly about the paradox of toughness and kindness. You know, I think that's when you're sitting with someone in grief, or you're the Spurs. It takes toughness to sit with someone in grief, and it takes deep kindness.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, it does. And I think, like, so many people still see kindness as a sign of weakness when they don't recognize what they should realize is it's a source of strength. But to your point, that strength doesn't always show up right away. Like, it's something that, that it's like an investment in building, um, it's an investment in building a cohesive team and culture in the long run. But you can't expect an immediate payoff. [laughs] Like, I was, I was kind to you today, and therefore you played better tonight? Maybe, maybe not. Do you have a better season knowing that there's somebody on your team who has your back? Probably.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, God. Yes. That, that, I... That is, that is actually... That is not... I don't think that's a probably. That is the three C model, um, closeness, commitment, and, uh, complementary skills. That, that is, that's research.
- AGAdam Grant
And-
- BBBrené Brown
I think you just hit on research
- AGAdam Grant
Well, I'm, I'm just thinking also, like, the, the absence
- 51:07 – 1:03:55
How Shame Shapes Performance and Behavior
- AGAdam Grant
of kindness, like, is in, in some ways, like, I'm thinking about the, the, the well-documented pattern that bad is stronger than good. Like, having an abusive or toxic coach or teammate, like, may do more harm even than the upsides you get of, you know, of somebody being unusually kind and caring. Um, I'm thinking about have we t- have we talked about the, the research on NBA players who had abusive coaches?
- BBBrené Brown
You and I have offline, but we should talk about it here. I think it's important.
- AGAdam Grant
I... [laughs] Julian Barling and his colleagues published this study where, um, they looked at, at coaches who were consistently berating and belittling their players, um, and compared them with, with coaches who didn't. And so you have a, like, every coach gets a score on how abusive they are, and then you track what happens to players' careers if they happen to have a coach who was higher on the abusive end of the spectrum. And it turns out, those players go on to perform worse for the rest of their careers, even when they're not under that coach's thumb anymore.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And, and one of the key mechanisms there seems to be that they have more emotional outbursts. They are more dysregulated. Um, they commit more technical fouls. Uh, they, they end up struggling more to coordinate with their teammates. Um, and, like, the, in the paper, the researchers talk about it as, like, these players are a little scarred for life. Like, that, that, like, at, they, they never fully healed the wounds of feeling like, "If I don't perform today, it means there might be something wrong with me." And I never thought about it through a shame lens until you brought shame into this conversation, but I think part of that scar is those abusive coaches are leaving these players with a lasting sense of shame that interferes with their ability to concentrate on, on performing their best.
- BBBrené Brown
A hun- I mean, 100%. 100%. Shame impairs performance. Um, I, I, I, I am actively working with teams right now who were talking about this a lot. Um, and it's interesting because there is, there's so much data on it. Um, and there, and there's some top reasons. Increasing fear of failure promotes negative team atmosphere, um, inhibits creativity and innovation, increases burnout, reduces autonomy. But one of the things that I think I wanted to bring into this conversation, 'cause I, I really was so excited about these findings, um... One of the most operationally significant, I think, findings from this shame research around shame in coaching is shame drives concealment. They stop asking questions. They stop taking risk. They stop disclosing struggles. They stop seeking feedback. Shame drives hiding. Because when, when... And this, this is a parenting truth. This is, this is... You know, one of the places that, where I do more work than I do with athletes is in hospital settings and with physicians. And one of the core issues around shame-based medical school and residency programs is concealment. Because when something goes wrong, physicians can grapple more with shame from their peers than how it impacts patients or patient families. So what ends up happening is concealment and hiding mistakes.And so, but this is also true in every milieu, in a classroom, in a locker room, in our living rooms with our kids. When I connect your value and your lovability and your worthiness for belonging to your performance, I am driving batshit levels of scarring. Like, you can get... You can come through it and change the trajectory of your athletic performance or your human performance or your pers- your personhood, but it will require deliberate repair.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
You have to deliberately go through pro- work, hard trauma work. Shame is trauma. Shame is trauma. Shame is being told, "This makes you unlovable and unworthy of connection and belonging." It's so serious. Why don't people get how serious it is, Adam?
- AGAdam Grant
I don't know. I've, I've never, I've never understood why anybody thinks this is a, a, an effective philosophy of, of t- leadership, of parenting, of teaching. Like, pick, pick your environment. I think one of the... I think one of the reasons that people screw this up is shame is powerful, and they see a short-term response.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh. Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
And they think, "Oh, like, I just shamed my team, and all of a sudden they trained harder. I just shamed my kid, and they stopped misbehaving. I, I, I am learning that this works." And they don't see the wound. They don't see the long-term detrimental effect it has. All they see is the immediate action. I think it's the same reason why leaders think fear is an effective strategy, and a lot of parents operate from a position of fear is, like, you, you get reinforcement for the behavior that elicits an immediate response. And, like, it seems like it's being rewarded because that's what's visible in the short term. And the, the long-term cost is, is much... It's much more difficult to connect the long-term cost to what I did as a leader or a parent.
- BBBrené Brown
No, it's, it's... You're exactly right. I remember one of the things I used to say all the time early in the shame research when I was talking, speaking about it publicly is you can change a child's behavior with shame on a dime.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
But you are forever changing who they are.
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. Yeah. That, that, and you, you don't see the latter and you see the former. Or you don't see the latter until it's too late.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I mean, this could take me into a really terrible place with things I love, like college sports, you know, where are we treating players? Are some, are some... Are shame-based coaches treating players as talent assets and commodities versus as people?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I remember being, at the end of my freshman year of college, I was a diver, and one of the swim coaches came in and said, "All right, according to NCAA rules, like, I can't obligate anybody to be here more than," I think it was 15 hours a week. And he said, "You, y- I can't tell anybody to be here more than 15 hours a week. But I can tell you this. If you're not here at least 30 hours a week, I will assume you're not on the team next year." [laughs] Okay, first of all, I mean, at minimum, the athletes who prioritize school in the off-season are getting shamed. Um, more likely, they're getting cut.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. This is, this is... You know, I have a question that I don't even know is answerable.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
But I, I do. I do ha- I, I... But if, if you, if anyone could answer, it's probably you. Um, or maybe we could sh- call a phone-a-friend, maybe David Eagleman. I don't know who we would call. But here, here's my question. Shame served a biological, an evolutionary biological function, right? Um, you bring danger to the community. We shun and stigmatize you because you're bringing threats to the community. It's not very different than, like, a, a pack of wolves who, if there is a sick wolf, will just kind of gather around that wolf and walk slowly until that wolf falls off a cliff and dies. Evolutionary, I mean, that's true. Evolutionary biology shows us, you know, you keep leading this predator back to our community, and now we're going to get rid of you. Over time, as we've developed as humans, shame has become far too blunt of an instrument to use because the detrimental effects of it are so... It's so positively correlated with violence, addiction, aggression, suicidal ideation, these things that don't, you know, are really horrible markers for hu- humans. Is it possible today that there is an old-school coaching, parenting, leading philosophy that has become increasingly excruciating neurobiologically because we have developed amygdala-wise and, and pre... You know, do you understand what I'm asking?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Yeah. Is the, is the... Like, if you think about the adaptive origins of shame or the, the reasons why it e- why it existed in the first place, is it increasingly maladaptive given the way that we operate in the modern world?
- BBBrené Brown
No, I know. I, I, I think it-
- AGAdam Grant
Or is the use of it
- BBBrené Brown
I think they use it as increasingly mala-
- AGAdam Grant
The weaponization of it
- BBBrené Brown
... it, yes, I think it's increasingly maladaptive, for sure. I guess what I'm asking, is there, it, would there be brain changes? Like, uh, w- the reason why I'm asking this is, kids today, college students today, in my experience, are like, "Nah, I'm, we're not doing that. I'm not..." I- I- they're, they're... There's some interesting intergenerational, but not super great studies on, you know, our grandparents use more shame than our parents and, you know. But is there, over time, a real physical and neurobiological cognitive response to maladaptive behavior?
- AGAdam Grant
I am not qualified to answer that question. We should definitely phone a friend.
- BBBrené Brown
But isn't it an interesting question?
- AGAdam Grant
It's such an interesting question. I'm, I'm pretty skeptical.
- BBBrené Brown
Like, do... Are you?
- 1:03:55 – 1:06:40
The Science of Great Coaching
- AGAdam Grant
et al. study on, uh, angry halftime speeches by college basketball coaches. Do you know this one?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, I, I don't. I'm so excited I could die.
- AGAdam Grant
It's, it's such a cool study.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
So you look at what happens to a team after the coach goes in and gives the angry halftime speech or not when they're behind, and it turns out that the team is more likely to win if, if the angry halftime speech happens, but only under two con- conditions. Only under two conditions. The first condition is the coach has to be only moderately angry, not too angry. So they're not berating you to the point of shaming you. They're kind of firing you up by saying, "We gotta do better."
- BBBrené Brown
Oh.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, "This was not good enough."
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And secondly, and I think this is the real kicker, they have to be not normally angry. So they're not tyrants.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my God, I love this.
- AGAdam Grant
They're not typically out of control.
- BBBrené Brown
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Like, this is a, this is a situationally appropriate response-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... from somebody for whom this is out of character. And so, wow, we must be really blowing it [laughs] that our level-headed, calm coach is now a little bit worked up and we need to rise to this occasion. And, I mean, to me that, that research just decimates the Bobby Knight style of, you know, of coaching and leadership-
- BBBrené Brown
100%
- AGAdam Grant
... and says you actually want the person who, to the point you were making earlier, you want the coach who makes the team feel safe and sets high standards of discipline and performance.
- BBBrené Brown
That's it. Oh my God, I love this. Um, I love this. One of the best angry halftime speeches that I've ever l- heard in, like, real time, 'cause I was there working with this team, was a coach who rarely, if ever, raised his voice. And he said, and, and, and he had tears in his eyes, and he said, "I'm so effing angry. You're letting yourselves down. You're disappointing yourselves. I don't want this for you."
- AGAdam Grant
Wow.
- BBBrené Brown
"You have trained for this." And I was like, "I am suiting up. Let's go."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] I was like, "I'm-"
- AGAdam Grant
Brené Brown is, is playing center. [laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
"I can take it from here."
- AGAdam Grant
She will be blocking all the shots.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh. Oh, yeah, no, yeah, you, you will, you will want me, um, out there. Yeah, so I... That's just incredible. This has been, this is, this has been a roller coaster of emotion. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Seriously. What are you doing to me, Brené?
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know, but I like it. We're both like ch, ch, hands up, woo.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Strapped in. I li- I like it. Um, I will say that I'm, I'm not using any roller coaster metaphors right now because
- 1:06:40 – 1:09:29
Fear, Roller Coasters & Parenting
- BBBrené Brown
the roller coaster in Galveston that my kids, I, I have, I have, that's over the water, got stuck. Did you see this in the news?
- AGAdam Grant
No. Oh, no.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, it got stuck 100 feet up, 105 feet up, and I know it was 105, with people backward, for four hours.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh.
- BBBrené Brown
And the firefighter ladder was 100 feet exactly.
- AGAdam Grant
No.
- BBBrené Brown
And they were stuck 105. And, and the fi- and they got them out. But, um, so-It, it's like, and I, I'm a rollercoaster rider, but I don't do, like, but I don't do the ocean. So [laughs] I gotta pick, you gotta pick two scary as hell things.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, are you a rollercoaster rider? We'll end with this question.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I've, I was afraid of heights as a kid, and I tried to cure myself by going on every ride at Cedar Point my senior year of high school. And it partially worked.
- BBBrené Brown
Exposure therapy.
- AGAdam Grant
It was, it was Exposure Therapy 101, and I... It, it worked in the sense that I've told our kids, "I will ride any ride with you that you are on a ride," and I do it, but the fear has never gone away.
- BBBrené Brown
I... It's so interesting that you... That Steve does not love a rollercoaster, Steve hates a rollercoaster, but has told my kids, "I'll ride anything with you that you want me to ride." Um-
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] This is-
- BBBrené Brown
Is that, is that, is that dad school? Where do you, where do you get that?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, this is, this is dad bravado.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] That's-
- AGAdam Grant
I, I don't want my kids to be scared like I was, so I'm gonna put on a-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah
- AGAdam Grant
... a, a tough front.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, 'cause when I... Before we had kids, I said, "Ride this with me," he's like, "I'll hold your purse."
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- BBBrené Brown
Um, but with the kids, he's like, he just looks at me and he's like, "God damn it." All right.
- AGAdam Grant
Here we go again.
- BBBrené Brown
"That sounds fun. Here we go." Yeah. Um, I like that. Okay, this was a good conversation. I have had all the feels. Have you had all the feels?
- AGAdam Grant
I've had more feels in this conversation than I have in a typical week.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] You're welcome.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] Thank you, I think.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Oh, you love it? All right, see you next time. [upbeat music] The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Grant Ed Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.
- AGAdam Grant
We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.
Episode duration: 1:09:30
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