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Right, But Should We Be Scheduling Sex? Esther Perel Answers All The Questions

One episode with the renowned couples therapist, Esther Perel, just isn't enough. So this week she's back to answer all of your relationship questions. Join Good Inside Membership: http://bit.ly/3YmAUgW Follow Dr. Becky on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbeckyatgoodinside Sign up for our weekly email, Good Insider: https://www.goodinside.com/newsletter Order Dr. Becky's book, Good Inside: A Guide to Becoming the Parent You Want to Be, at goodinside.com/book or wherever you order your books. For more Esther Perel, head to estherperel.com or listen to her podcast Where Should We Begin. Stories are the building blocks of relationships and Esther Perel designed a game to bring out the storyteller in you. Get yours at https://game.estherperel.com Today’s episode is brought to you by Cerebelly: Cerebelly is baby food with 16 key nutrients that nourish a growing brain. Cerebelly’s organic, non-GMO recipes include vegetables as the main ingredient and offer nutrients that are matched to your child’s developmental stage. Cerebelly is Clean Label Project Certified, meaning they’ve been rigorously tested for over 400 heavy metals and toxins. Use the code GOODINSIDE for 20% off your first order and get an additional 15% off when you sign up for subscribe & save at cerebelly.com

Dr. Becky KennedyhostEsther Perelguest
Feb 14, 202322mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:02

    Intro

    1. BK

      [instrumental music]

  2. 0:02 – 1:45

    Scheduling sex after kids: turn routine into a ritual

    1. BK

      We all want more knowledge and sharing from Esther Perel. And right now, we're going to hear Esther answer your questions. I, I'd love to share some questions that come directly from-

    2. EP

      Yeah

    3. BK

      ... the community.

    4. EP

      Yeah, yeah, do.

    5. BK

      Here's one that came up so often. Is it completely awful to schedule sex the first few years after having children?

    6. EP

      Not at all. Not at all. But you see, the word schedule in the American mind often involves, you know, a very task oriented calendar. But you can also look at it in a much more beautiful, poetic way, that there's a ritual around it.

    7. BK

      Mm.

    8. EP

      So the question is, what happens once you meet? Is there a ritual, you know? Is there a coming together? Is there an anticipation? I mean, part of what you want is, that makes it erotic, is the fact that you look forward to something. Forward to spending time together, forward to connect, forward to experience pleasure, forward to be taken care of. Whatever it is. But the, the anticipation is the mortar of, in our imagin- erotic imagination. So schedule away. And then ask yourself, "What do I do with the fact that-"

    9. BK

      Mm

    10. EP

      ... "I can rely on this time? I know it's set, it's ours. It's Saturday morning, it's Sunday evening," whatever. And then make it special, because that's what changes it from something that is routine to something that is ritualized.

    11. BK

      Mm.

    12. EP

      A ritual is a routine that is infused with intentionality and creativity.

  3. 1:45 – 2:23

    Using small windows of time: structure creates freedom

    1. BK

      And my visual as you're talking is, like, the schedule, right? 'Cause I hear this a lot from parents too, it's like, "Oh, when, when my two kids are both napping, and there's, like, a 45-minute overlap, it has to be then," or whatever it is. I don't know why I picture that as like, you're saying there's a container. Like that's what you're-

    2. EP

      I think that's a wonderful thing

    3. BK

      ... right? But then within the container, there could be a lot of-

    4. EP

      Instead of going to clean up the porch-

    5. BK

      Yeah

    6. EP

      ... you actually say, "We have 45 minutes, let's go play."

    7. BK

      Yeah.

    8. EP

      Why not?

    9. BK

      Love it.

    10. EP

      You know, when you have little ones, structure creates freedom.

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    12. EP

      Before you have the structure of the kids, the freedom is the lack of structure. One of the most important things to redefine is that with kids, freedom comes from structure, not from the absence of it.

  4. 2:23 – 4:48

    Caretaking vs. romance: why switching roles is hard (especially for mothers)

    1. BK

      Mm-hmm. Okay, another question that came up a lot, being in caretaking mode feels like it's a threat to being romantic. Being in caretaking mode of your kids.

    2. EP

      Yes.

    3. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    4. EP

      So I think that is a very, very interesting piece. I just did a little clip in Australia that went completely viral over exactly this thing. So this is what I'm gonna say, and I'm gonna say it better than I did in the first time. Very often, if I work with a heterosexual couple, I will hear a caring male partner say, "Nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on. I love seeing her into it." Because if she's into it, he doesn't have to deal with the predatory fear. He knows she's enjoying it. I have yet to hear a straight woman say, "Nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on," if she's not into it. If she's not into it, whatever is happening to him will not change her. What turns her on is what happens to her. And for that, it means that she needs to be able to focus on herself-

    5. BK

      Mm

    6. EP

      ... away from the worry and the responsibility and the caretaking of others. One of the most difficult things in the transition from mother to woman, from caregiver to erotic being, is the ability to switch the focus onto oneself in a healthy narcissism, I really with pleasure use that word, away from the responsibility and the caregiving. It's her turn on, it's what's happening to her that will ignite her.

    7. BK

      Mm.

    8. EP

      And so then you ask, for some women, it's about taking off the apron that is filled with spit, and that's all I need in order to move, to retrieve the woman that is behind the mother. For another person, it's about leaving the house. For another person, it's about leaving the city. How much do I need to be away from that locus of caregiving that allows me to feel carefree, to attend-

    9. BK

      Mm

    10. EP

      ... to myself, to allow myself to experience pleasure without worrying that something is gonna happen-

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm

    12. EP

      ... to the people over whom I am responsible.

  5. 4:48 – 6:30

    Practical transition rituals + “responsive desire” (willingness before wanting)

    1. BK

      So while someone's in their house with their partner-

    2. EP

      Yeah

    3. BK

      ... and they struggle to make this shift-

    4. EP

      Yeah

    5. BK

      ... they're like, "Yeah, I need that trip out of the city," or, "I need this," but it's not yet.

    6. EP

      I think, I say it's com-

    7. BK

      What can they do?

    8. EP

      Well, I say, first of all, I completely get it. And I explain to the partner, you really need to understand it. This is almost evolutionary. This is not your wife or your partner. This is, you know, r- revolution did the job very well. It made women completely feeling that sense of responsibility, which is part of why in history th- she's been divided. The mother was here, and the other woman was there. It's, the, the integration of these two people inside the same household is a challenge-

    9. BK

      Mm-hmm

    10. EP

      ... and Victoria's Secret doesn't solve this.

    11. BK

      [laughs]

    12. EP

      So the first thing is, what helps you transition, miss? Is it a shower? Is it a walk? Is it a bath? Is it some good music over your ears? Is it just being allowed 15 minutes to be alone in the room and have no obligation, no responsibility, nobody asking you anything? What helps you? That should be part of the ritual of scheduling, for example. So then you give the partner a role. It's not just that she have to, you have to talk her into it. The next thing is, it doesn't always start with desire. You can have a responsive desire, not an initiating desire. So it starts with willingness. "I don't know. I could do without. I could just as well [laughs] go to bed. But, you know, I'll see where it takes me. Let's see." And don't take this as she's not into it, or she has less desire and there is a discrepancy. It just means that at this stage, willingness is one way for her to shift from mother to lover.

    13. BK

      Hmm.

  6. 6:30 – 8:19

    Bring play and fantasy home: imagination as freedom in confinement

    1. EP

      Then if she says, "I need to be out of the city," then make sure either you use your fantasy life and you create a trip. You know, I had a fantastic couple in the pandemic. The story of... They were supposed to travel exactly to the other city. They had the li- the whole thing, the, the plane, everything got stopped. There was nowhere to go, and they created a beach inside their living room just for a night. You know, why only with children do we play?

    2. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EP

      Why is it only the children who take books and turn them into rocks and think they're on a river?

    4. BK

      But why? You, you know, it... Th- there's a lot of self-consciousness, right? It feels awkward for a lot of adults with their partners. What, w- w- what can help-

    5. EP

      Yes, not with their lovers, but with their partners, yes.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. EP

      Of course.

    8. BK

      What, what can hel- what?

    9. EP

      Because there is this notion that once you have entered family life and domesticity, you have to become all serious.

    10. BK

      Is it just a matter of saying, "Okay, I'm just gonna kind of... We're gonna do this"? Is it just like-

    11. EP

      Yes

    12. BK

      ... jumping off the diving board-

    13. EP

      Yes

    14. BK

      ... just trying it?

    15. EP

      And saying, and being, and, and saying, "Oh, can you believe this?"

    16. BK

      [laughs]

    17. EP

      "This is so awkward." But the first time, there is nothing more exciting than to be transgressive in your own home, and to step out of the role and the box that this role puts you in, rather than have to create a whole massive production.

    18. BK

      Hmm.

    19. EP

      We have... Freedom in confinement comes from our imagination.

    20. BK

      Hmm.

    21. EP

      Our imagination can take us anywhere, and we do go to the movies, to the theater, to, to art for exactly that.

    22. BK

      Yeah.

    23. EP

      Because it takes us outside of our reality. It, it goes outside the boundaries of what is permitted. The couples who have it do this naturally. It's not that they don't have dips. It's not that they don't have dry spells. It's just that they know how to resurrect 'cause they know how to bring that erotic energy-

    24. BK

      Mm-hmm

    25. EP

      ... as in playful, creative, mischievous, curious, inside their kitchen.

  7. 8:19 – 9:02

    Awkwardness and guilt are part of the process—don’t wait them out

    1. BK

      But you know what you just said that I wanna, uh, kind of just center for a moment is I hear this a lot, uh, from parents who struggle to even take time for themselves away from their kids. "How do I go out to dinner with my friends and miss bedtime without feeling guilty?" And I often say, "You're gonna do it while you tolerate feeling guilty." And it, like, we're not gonna do it without feeling guilty. The guilt's gonna come. You're gonna tolerate it as part of the experience. And one of the things you're saying about, you know, entering into fantasy or play with your partner is it's gonna feel awkward. It's not... Don't wait till the moment it doesn't feel awkward. You can even, "Oh, this feels awkward. This is so different than what we usually do."

    2. EP

      That's right.

    3. BK

      You're saying just it's part of the experience.

    4. EP

      That's correct. The awkwardness is one character in the play, and you talk to the awkwardness.

    5. BK

      Yeah.

  8. 9:02 – 11:00

    Calling out systemic parent guilt—and why martyrdom harms kids

    1. EP

      And you bring it in, and you say, "How awkward are you feeling today? You know, for me, it's a nine." But the thing about the guilt about going for dinner, I mean, that is systemic. This is not th- Your grandparents did not feel guilty when they went for dinner.

    2. BK

      Yep.

    3. EP

      Neither when they went away for two weeks, for that matter. And for some of us, it's our parents. This is very generational. This is part of the domination on the parent.

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    5. EP

      I, I really think that it's, it, it needs to be called out as such, and not to be told, "Well, if you don't wanna give everything to your kids, then don't have them." Right? Because that's the answer that w- that you then get. Go out, and here is why. Because if you don't, and you deprive yourself, you begin to ask your children to become your emotional caregivers.

    6. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. EP

      You want your children to validate your sacrifice. You want your children to make sure that you're not too alone and too disconnected. And when you recruit your children into that caretaking role, you're creating a legacy of emotional burden that is not gonna be too good for them.

    8. BK

      Well, I know this is gonna land well on our listeners, 'cause I feel like the, [laughs] you know, uh, people might hear about me or Good Inside about kind of certain parenting strategies. But really, you know, what we're about is redefining motherhood as not martyrdom. That's not good for anyone. No one- nobody benefits from a selfless parent, not the kid, not the parent, n- nobody.

    9. EP

      But you're not even selfless. That's the interesting thing, is that you s- you surreptitiously pass the burden onto your kids.

    10. BK

      Yes.

    11. EP

      You want your kids to validate what you gave up for them, and then you resent them when they challenge you, or when they don't want to spend more time with you, or when they're not thinking that you're the best thing that ever happened to them. You put an emotional burden on your children for something that other people need to provide. We live in community. We can't ask our kids [laughs] to be the validators of our parenthood. You sit with your friends, and you discuss that, and you get a sense of normality.

  9. 11:00 – 12:46

    Reconnecting when you feel far apart: start with ownership and vulnerability

    1. BK

      Okay, last question, 'cause I know we're gonna have to wrap up. I, I know there's a lot of people listening who are probably thinking there, there's steps I would need to take, you know, [laughs] before, you know, before sex, before more intimacy. Me and my partner feel so far apart.

    2. EP

      Yeah.

    3. BK

      That erotic energy feels so far away.

    4. EP

      Yeah.

    5. BK

      Are there things that people might not even think about are legitimate steps that are kind of concrete, doable?

    6. EP

      Yes. There are many things.

    7. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EP

      There are many things. Um, and I write about it. I, I mean, you know, I created a whole card game, Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories, because it creates a different conversation between partners. And I've seen people do one card a day and just say, "You know what? We've gotten stale."

    9. BK

      Yeah.

    10. EP

      So the first thing you do is you kind of acknowledge. You go to your partner. You write a letter when you sit on a plane one day, or where you're stuck in an airport, and you just say, "I was thinking of us, and I realize it's been two months, two years, 10 years," whatever. "We have really grown apart, and I just noticed it, and I was shocked. I was sad." How did this happen? And I know, I'm sure I have done a lot of things to contribute to that. You don't start blaming. You just own your part.

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    12. EP

      Own your part, and the other person can own theirs. I miss you. I miss us. I miss the person I thought I was going to be. How did I get there? What happened? And I'm suddenly not even sure that we can come back from there, but I would like to try. I'm not sure you want to come back from there, but I hope you still do. All I want to tell you, and this is the vulnerable part, I wanna do better. Will you join me?

    13. BK

      Mm.

  10. 12:46 – 13:55

    Make it meaningful, not performative: create moments of care and attention

    1. EP

      And then you get the chills because this is caring for your relationship.

    2. BK

      Yeah.

    3. EP

      And then you say, when they come home, that doesn't mean you wait for them in your lingerie, yeah? This is not... You just really say, "Can we sit? And, you know, h- what was it like for you to read this letter?" Or you don't process the letter, and you just say, and you just make a beautiful table, and you say, "I just thought we needed more than just standing at the counter, and I wanted us to sit again and to have nice music and to cook something for you or to order something in. I wanted to make you feel that you matter, that you're special, that it's important to me, and that I will do whatever it takes for that." And this is the challenging thing, is that you're gonna do it without knowing for a fact that the other person is right there. Because they may have tried for a while and you were missing in action or because who knows, but you do it because it matters to you. It's enlightened self-interest. That's what will help you with the vulnerability on the matter. It's a term for, for Terry Real

  11. 13:55 – 15:38

    Touch as a bridge: small gestures that rebuild closeness safely

    1. EP

      that I love to use. And then you just say, you know, when we sit at the couch, you suddenly take their hand, and you say, "Wow, it's been a while since we held hands like this." And then you take their shoulder and you massage it, or you put your hand in their hair and you just say, "Whoa." You know, "It feels nice." You don't say, "Why don't we ever do this?" You don't say, "It's been so long, you know, how long do I have to wait?" Or when they finally kiss you back, you say, "What took you so long?" You say, "That feels nice. It feels a little awkward. We've become so stiff a little bit, and we try to just deal by getting pecks from the kids and from the dogs. You know?"

    2. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. EP

      "We've replaced ourselves." And you own that in an adult language. And then slowly you get closer to them. And then when you are in the shower, you may say, "Join me," or maybe they just sit in the tub and you go and you rub their back. Or you, you know, you do gestures. They're not lead-ons. They're gestures that are meant to be just that. It feels nice to touch. You know, we can live without sex, but we don't live well without touch.

    4. BK

      Yeah.

    5. EP

      That's the slow steps of that. You know, "You look nice. You know, would you wear that shirt that I like so much?" A- a- and you make the person feel that they are a sensual, sexual, living, breathing human being next to you.

    6. BK

      Yeah.

    7. EP

      That's the process.

    8. BK

      That is so, so profound and so important. And, and you make it, you make it so concrete, and, and thank you. And I hope this is one of many times we speak. This is just the beginning.

    9. EP

      Yeah.

    10. BK

      Um-

  12. 15:38 – 17:10

    Marriage after kids + shifting from tasks to meaning in relationships

    1. EP

      What would be the next question you would have taken?

    2. BK

      Oh, what's the next question we would have taken? Should marriage change after kids?

    3. EP

      It does.

    4. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    5. EP

      It doesn't should. It definitely does.

    6. BK

      Yep.

    7. EP

      So does your experience with your body, so does your sexuality, so does the resources that are available to the co- those are facts.

    8. BK

      Yep.

    9. EP

      But then there is what you do with the facts.

    10. BK

      Yep.

    11. EP

      What of what I said struck you most?

    12. BK

      [sighs] Um, I, I love when you were talking about having, having to really show someone that they matter, that recognizing someone matters has to be matched with, like, actually doing things about it, like manifesting, and we do that, we do that with our kids, like, all the time.

    13. EP

      So there's a perfect little example that I l- I took from Judy Gottman on that, where she says, "It's one thing to say to someone, 'Thank you for making me the tea.' It's another thing to say, 'That was very thoughtful of you.'"

    14. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. EP

      If you wanna go back from a task-oriented to a meaning-oriented relationship, that's an example of the shift.

    16. BK

      Yeah.

    17. EP

      One is about the tea, and one is about the person.

    18. BK

      Process. Yeah, and the process and their intention. You're seeing it-

    19. EP

      And the relationship

    20. BK

      ... and you're connecting.

    21. EP

      Quality of your relationship determines the quality of your life, ultimately.

  13. 17:10 – 19:05

    Owning desire: ‘I turn myself off/on’ and cultivating vitality

    1. BK

      For, for sure. I think that's on your website. You know, the other thing you've said in the past that I think about a lot and I've used in a lot of my sessions with people is your question of how do you turn yourself off?

    2. EP

      And on.

    3. BK

      And on.

    4. EP

      But I will explain that question, right? It, uh, for me, it's a, it's a very important one. So it comes from that very thing where I said, it's not what happens to the other person, it's what happens to her. In this case, it's a her, right? And I ask, how do you turn... No. What turns me off is.

    5. BK

      Mm-hmm.

    6. EP

      Or I turn myself off by.

    7. BK

      Yes.

    8. EP

      Is very different from what turns me off, meaning you turn me off when.

    9. BK

      Yes.

    10. EP

      What do I do that turns me off? It's when I worry about the kids. It's when I'm anxious about money. It's when I didn't take time for myself. It's when I feel bloated, and I've overeaten. It's when we've have a fight. That. I turn myself off when, and I turn myself on, I awaken myself, when I'm in nature, when I listen to music, when I go out with friends. That answer is what will help you the most with your question about how do I not feel guilty when I go out with my girlfriends?

    11. BK

      Mm-hmm. You know, I think that's a new thought for a lot of people of, you know, turning myself on or off. That's not something someone else controls.

    12. EP

      No, because desire is to own the wanting.

    13. BK

      Yes.

    14. EP

      You can't make people desire. You can make people do things, but you can't make them want it. So the wanting is entirely yours, and the wanting is not sexual. It's about feeling alive.

    15. BK

      Yeah.

    16. EP

      If you don't feel alive, you can have sex. Women have done sex for centuries and felt nothing. That's not the point. The point is to experience a sense of vitality in the relationship. That's what people want.

    17. BK

      Yeah.

  14. 19:05 – 21:51

    Investing in the couple benefits the whole family + closing reflections

    1. EP

      And you want it with your kids, and you want it with your partner, so you have to take some of the energy away from the kids and into the relationship because it will actually give more to the kids when you do more for the couple. That's the triangle I want people to stay with.

    2. BK

      Hallelujah. For real. Thank you.

    3. EP

      My pleasure.

    4. BK

      [instrumental music plays] So I have an idea. You might be thinking, "Ugh, so much of this episode resonates, but it's such a hurdle to get over, to talk about these things with my partner." Well, one of the things I know from working with couples is talking about tricky topics is much easier when you have a third. What do I mean, a third? Instead of talking directly about a topic to a partner, the two of you talk about an episode you both listened to or an article you both saw or a book you both read. So right now, consider sharing this episode with your partner as a way to bridge the gap. Maybe add a note like, "Hey, there were a lot of really interesting points that made me think about things differently. Thought you might be interested in this, too." Or take it a step further and write, "I miss you. I'd love to reconnect. Maybe we can both listen to this and talk about it together." Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast. You could also write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Natt, and Kristin Mueller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, Ashley Valenzuela, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle, and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [instrumental music plays]

Episode duration: 22:01

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