EVERY SPOKEN WORD
30 min read · 6,239 words- 0:00 – 1:01
Sponsor: Virtual eating disorder treatment with Equip
- BEDr. Becky
Eating disorders don't always look the way we expect. As parents, sometimes the hardest part isn't noticing something feels off, it's figuring out what to do next. Early support can make a real difference, but finding help is often confusing, slow, or disruptive. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Equip, a virtual eating disorder treatment program that helps your child recover at home with a full care team and support for you as parents every step of the way. Equip treats all eating disorders, works with all ages, has no wait list, and is covered by insurance in all 50 states. If you're worried about your child and don't know where to start, visit equip.health/goodinside to learn more about Equip's eating disorder treatment. That's equip.health/goodinside. [upbeat music] There's a moment when your child starts changing emotionally, physically, relationally,
- 1:01 – 4:04
The parenting shift: When your old instincts suddenly stop working
- BEDr. Becky
and suddenly the instincts that guided you so well when they were young, the ones that you practiced year after year and honed in on, now all of a sudden they don't land the same way anymore. You reach for their hair the way you always have, they flinch. "Why are you touching me?" You say, "Come on, tell me what's going on. Just here to listen." And they say, "Stop interrogating me." You didn't even know they had that word in their vocabulary. And I mean, really, your kid is using the word interrogate for truly benign interest in their life, and isn't that what we're supposed to be doing as parents, being interested in their life? And then you have this moment where you say, "Okay, I'm gonna try something different. I'm gonna go back to that warm voice I used when they were little," and they roll their eyes at you. And they say, "Please, don't talk to me like that," or, "You are so cringe." That's the one I get all the time. Now, to be clear, I'm laughing as I talk about some of these moments, but they can really feel awful. It makes you feel rejected and sad, and it also can make you feel angry. Like, I have parented you for over a decade, and I'm sorry, what is this? Whew. And it makes sense if under that anger, maybe late at night, is also hurt. I miss my little kid. This is a conversation about that transition, those hard moments, and making sense of all of it as much as we can together. This is a conversation about what happens when you move into the tween and teen years, which, yes, seem to start earlier than ever these days, a stage when parenting asks something so different from us. I am joined today by someone who is very much part of the Good Inside family, and very much tuned into that moment, and someone who I always want to talk to about the tween and teen struggles in my house, Dr. Sheryl Ziegler. Dr. Sheryl has been on the show a couple times before, and every single time, parents write in saying, "Oh my goodness, she gets it. More of her." Sheryl's a clinical psychologist who spent years working closely with parents of tweens and teens, helping them understand what's actually happening underneath behavior, and helping them figure out how to stay anchored through a stage that can feel very disorienting, and yes, very personal. Today's conversation is also special because it marks the beginning of something new for us both. Dr. Sheryl is launching a new podcast here at Good Inside, one specifically for parents of tweens and teens, and she'll be launching the puberty, tween, and teen vertical in the Good Inside app. So many of you have asked us to kind of grow alongside you, and we listened, and now we are. All right, Sheryl, you
- 4:04 – 5:16
Meet Dr. Sheryl Ziegler and why “tween” is its own developmental stage
- BEDr. Becky
have been on this podcast a bunch of times, but for anyone who's hearing you for the first time, let's just start. Introduce yourself, and just share a little bit about the stuff that's interesting to you, the age groups you focus on. Let's go there.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
So I'm a psychologist, and I've been working with kids and families for a long time now. And I work with tweens and teens mostly. I used to work with the youngers, but sometimes we move our interests. And I just started focusing on tweens, I would say, like, 10 years ago or so, when I realized, like, even I thought 12 and under are just kids, and 13 and over are teens. And, like, that's fine, you know? And then I realized, like, wait, there's this little, there's a small gap in the middle, and it could be, like, 8 to 12 or 9 to 13-ish, where that term tween really, really does make sense. Like that in-betweener kind of thing. And so I work with both tweens and teens, but I have this super soft spot for that, like, "I'm one foot in childhood, and I'm one foot in adolescence, and, like, I don't know which day, where the foot is." But, like, the middle is always messy.
- 5:16 – 6:32
What catches parents off guard: Confidence as a parent—and then sudden whiplash
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah. Do you know one of my favorite business books, right, is called The Messy Middle, right? And that the middle is always messy. So on that note, you've also worked so much with parents of kind of kids in those messy middle childhood years. What tends to catch them by surprise?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
I think what happens is they feel like, "Wait, I, I, I actually s- I s- I'm starting to feel confident," or, "I have just started to feel competent, and now all of a sudden, like, who is this kid? Like, I thought I knew, I knew how to calm you. I knew what you liked. I know what your favorite dessert is, or who your favorite teacher is." And all of a sudden you come home, and it's not one day, but it can feel like, and then one day they're like, "I don't even like that anymore."
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Or like, "Oh, no, that, you know, band or whatever, that's, that's, like, dumb. I'm not into that." And you're like, "Wait, what? Wait, when were you-"
- BEDr. Becky
... gonna give me the memo? Like, this was your favorite, I swear, last week. Yes. I, I think what you just said is so powerful. You are starting to feel competent as a parent, and it can feel like in one moment kind of your kid changed or your kid is kind of, quote, "gone," but you feel like your competence is gone. Like, the feelings that parents have in that shift are, are what?
- 6:32 – 7:21
The emotional impact on parents: Loss, rejection, and a new power dynamic
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Loss. Loss is the first one, and some confusion, and sometimes some anger, and sometimes just some sadness. Like, the house can all of a sudden feel quieter. The biggest thing in terms of, like, that feeling of loss is you lose the ability to feel like, wait, like, I'm actually the leader and I set the rules, and it's like, no, oh, now I need an invitation to go into your room? I almost need an invitation to hug you, and in a way even talk to you sometimes. Like, they're having their own experience, and I'm no longer, I, as in my role too as a mom, like, the leader of it. Like, I'm setting the tone. We're gonna go have pizza and do this tonight. Like, a lot of times they're setting the tone, like, "No, I'm just gonna be in my room. I'm just gonna do this."
- 7:21 – 9:46
From orbit to exploration: Attachment needs don’t disappear—they change form
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah, and I'm picturing the galaxy and, and wishing I had more science knowledge, [laughs] but the thing that comes to mind is, like, when they're young, they're kind of a planet that orbits around us. They gaze at us.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Yes.
- BEDr. Becky
And even when they're annoyed or even when they're melting down, you know they need you.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
They're, like, looking at you. You set the tone. You're the thing they orbit around, and it, it can feel very sudden. I, I love the words you said, I think not because they're pleasant, but because they're real: loss, uh, sadness, anger, um, rejection.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Rejection.
- BEDr. Becky
Right?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Um, because you've gotten used to 8 years, 10 years, 12 years of this relationship, and the relationship, even if it went through down- ups and downs, I think had the same model.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
When they're younger, presence is really important, but they're kinda all over the place. Then they're jumping, and they're skipping, and they're putting on a show for you, and they're playing, very active. And then when they become, like, a tween, and when I say that, I mean they're probably starting puberty, they're having hormonal shifts, they're confused themselves, what they need is, like, they don't need a playmate anymore. They really need the steady person to almost go back to and be like, "Wait, who am I again?" And then your presence reminds them, and they're like, "Oh, okay, that's who I was, and now I'm off to go figure out who I am now."
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And that's like a big shift, and I don't think we prepare anybody for that. I think parents are more prepared for the teens and what they perceive is gonna be a really hard time and lots of defiance. But the tweens, I think that's why we feel loss. It's like, oh, my gosh, I was robbed of my time with my kid.
- BEDr. Becky
You know, I know you and I as clinical psychologists think a lot about attachment, right? And attachment is all about a kid's relationship with a secure base, right? And so before, it was kind of like your kid and the secure base, which is you, are really close. And, and actually, the goal of that secure base is that they load up on enough connection, on enough confidence that now they can actually do the job that they need to do when they get older, which is to explore. But when that exploration starts, which is usually exploration of, "I don't like to watch movies," 'cause they're like, "Maybe I don't. I don't know. Let me see," right? Uh, "I wanna be alone. Oh, let me see." I- I know for me too it's so easy as that base, like, "Well, you move here, I'm gonna retaliate," and we, and then we kind of remove the, the anchor that they don't tell us they need, but talk about that. Do they still really need?
- 9:46 – 11:18
Two common traps: ‘Fine, forget it’ vs. pursuing harder (and why both backfire)
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
They really need it. They really need it. It just feels different. So like, uh, like you're talking and I'm tracking you, so I wanna... Yes, there's, there's one parent who might be like, "I'm feeling rejected, so now, like, I'm gonna kind of reject you in my own ways, like we're gonna go have fun and have movie night without you."
- BEDr. Becky
Yes. [laughs]
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"I'm not a Baba Mama Bear."
- BEDr. Becky
It's like, "I'm gonna watch with your younger brother. He still loves me." I'm like, what are we saying?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, they'll still give me hugs.
- BEDr. Becky
Right. [laughs]
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Like, and so, yes, it's like passive-aggressive, like basically, "I'm so mad at you." There's that version. Then there's the other version, which is, "You're getting away, and I'm gonna run after you, and the more you try to get away from me, the more I'm gonna try to pull you back."
- BEDr. Becky
Run, pursue, run, pursue.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Yes. And so I do wanna say the more you do that, the more they tend to run even harder, even faster, and what used to feel like, oh, that's so supportive, like maybe I'm seven, and, like, I had a hard day, and, like, you lean into them, and you're like, "Let's go home, and, like, let's talk about it, and let's, like, eat cookies and milk," and, you know, like, they would've loved that.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Like, a seven-year-old may love that-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... or a kid before puberty will love that. You do that to a kid who's in puberty and trying to get away from you, and it's like, "You're so annoying, and you don't even know what I need anymore."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And it's like, oh, my gosh. And so, and you really might not know what they need, actually. You're doing it. It comes out of love. "I'm gonna pursue you. I'm gonna pursue you. I'm gonna try. How about we try this? Do you wanna go here? Do you wanna do this?" And so instead, though, what you have to do is honor the process.
- 11:18 – 12:41
The ‘middle way’: Being available without hovering—presence as the new skill
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah, and it's so, it's so painful. It's such a new language because I think, look, and we all in some ways get comforted by binaries 'cause it's simple, right? And it's like, "Okay, well, if you don't want me to run after you, I guess I'm just gonna go out every night because you don't even need me at night."
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm.
- BEDr. Becky
And it's, it's so hard to learn this new language of no and no, right? [laughs]
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Um, like, there's something in the middle. It makes me think, like, "I'm gonna run after you" is one. The other extreme is, "Fine, forget it." And in the middle, and maybe I'm curious if this is what you mean about kind of honoring the process, is like, "I'm here. I'm," like, "I'm here. I'm not banging down your door. I'm not locking myself out of the house, and I'm, I'm around. I'm waiting a little more. I'm available a little more." And I know in the work I've done in that age group-
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Even if that doesn't mean your kid comes to you for that hug on the couch, it matters. How- Do you see that, too? Oh, yeah. That just, I'm here, that middle? Oh, yeah. I think it's almost one of the essential roles. Mm. And which is really hard, 'cause it might feel like for, at times, and again, this is at times, 'cause this is a roller coaster. 'Cause at times they're like, "Oh my gosh, can I sleep with you tonight?" Oh. Yes. "And can we get my stuffies?" Yes. [laughs] "And can we, like, build a fort?" And you're like, "Wait, yesterday you didn't even want me anywhere in the m- the vicinity of you, and today..." And so that's
- 12:41 – 15:13
What’s happening in their brain and body: Puberty as a major internal reorganization
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
part of the roller coaster. I do actually think, like, I know, like, honor the process. What, what I really mean by that is, like, understand what's literally happening inside their brain- Ooh. Mm-hmm ... and body. So can you, can you tell us that? Yeah, like, it's like what parents think of as, "My kid, I don't know them anymore," or, "They're so different," or, "They're trying out these new roles." What that actually is happening inside is there's a restructuring of the brain. Mm. And the brain is pumping out hormones. Things are growing. Things are happening. Moods are happening, and they really don't know how to handle them. And so think of your kid, it's like if you were watching them try something brand new, or a really hard puzzle, or something like you've just never seen them do before. And think to yourself, "Okay, my job here is to observe them trying to figure out this problem, not to solve it." Not to come in and say, "Oh my gosh, this puzzle piece, it goes right here. I'm here. If you want some help, like maybe on the corners or something, I'm here, but otherwise I'm gonna trust that you're gonna figure this out, and it's gonna take a really long time. And while you're figuring that out, I'm silently over here trying to figure out how to just watch you. Just, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out how to watch you." And, and, and honestly, the thing that strikes me in your language, I don't know if you realize this, is to give parents permission, you don't know how to do this yet with your kid. You're, you're also figuring this out. So of course you are also gonna say things like, "Fine, your brother will hug me." Mm-hmm. And then you're gonna pursue, and then you're, you're figuring out a new parenting phase, too. When they're like, "Well, I, I don't even know. I didn't, you know, I didn't make the... They didn't, I didn't get called back on the audition," or whatever. It's not our jobs to be like, "Oh my gosh, well, do you wanna do, like, more classes? Do you..." That's what we wanna do. We wanna pressure that. Instead to be like, "Hey, I wonder what that's like. I wonder, I'm curious about." Yeah. Just reflecting, "You seem really disappointed." Like, I know when parents hear this, like, "That's it?" It's like, yeah, that's it, and it's really hard. My move is [sighs] I'm not gonna say one word, because I know whatever word, it's gonna be twi- It's gonna, you know, and we do that sometimes, but it might, it's so, in some ways it's harder and simpler. "Oh, this sucks." And then you're right, the parents are like, "Well, and then what?" It's so hard. I often think whenever I go into, "And then what?" maybe the answer is
- 15:13 – 18:34
‘Potted plant’ parenting: Quiet, steady presence without fixing or withdrawing
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
always nothing. Like [laughs] Um, and, and waiting and watching and allowing the next thing to happen, right? Yes. So I wanna even bring what you just said to life more, because I'm picturing you doing this with your kid, and when you say waiting and watching, that doesn't mean turning around, leaving the room, looking at your phone, starting to clean, vacuum, right? Presence means like, "I'm not gonna fill the space with my words and try to make you feel better or distract you. There might be a time and a place for that, but probably in this moment, like, I just need to kind of sit here." You might start dinner. Yep. Yep. I might start, like, picking up lightly. I'm not gonna be though completely distracted. I'm kind of doing it to not make it awkward. Yep. And if they start crying, or if they get mad or something, it's like, "I'm here." Yes. You know, it reminds me, I was just, you know, talking with a group of parents who have deeply feeling kids, and one of the things we talk about with those kids when they have these huge explosions, and being in the room with them, and parents are like, "What am I supposed to do?" And it's so hard to access something that helps you embody this type of there, not fixing, not pulling away presence. And it was a parent and once said, "I, I imagine being a potted plant," because a room is different with a potted plant. Like, a potted plant isn't, like, doing that much, but, like, everyone knows a potted plant changes a room. And she said to me, "I just say to myself, potted plant, potted plant, potted plant, potted plant." [laughs] Like, and, and there's something similar in that presence. It's not overbearing. It's not fixing. It's not withdrawing, and I, I think that's, it applies to this age group, too. For me with three teens in the house, I feel like I, I, I really do operate as that potted plant. Yep. I might hear a conversation going on. I might see, I can tell something's happening on text or something, and I'm not hovering. Yep. I want to. I wanna know what's going on, but I'm just, like, there. And just, what I think's important is sometimes you take a concept and we can be, me too, too literal. So for the parent who's like, "I, I can't do that, I'm working," or, "I'm out of the house," like that's- Right ... if, if washing the dishes while your kid is around- Right ... is not your thing or not possible, all good. You're not disqualified from this- No ... right? Right. It's just about channeling a different way of showing up, right? And playing around with different ways that you can do that that feel like you. I think even when our kids are young, we make the mistake of using their immediate reaction as a barometer for whether we're doing a good job. Mm-hmm. Oh, my goodness, does that not work when you have a tween and teen. Absolutely. Like, just going along the lines, I had, I also had somebody say to me recently, like, "This is just crazy." It was, like, the second semester, and we got a, we got a note that said, "You need new folders," and, you know, "Check your kid's pencil box. They need new pens." Like, that kind of s- school supply refresh. And so the mom was like, "So I went to my kid and was like, 'Hey, I got the email. What do you think you need?'" "I don't need anything." She was like, "Okay, what if I just get the things and I just, like, put them out?" And then they can just pick for them. And so next time I saw her, I was, "How did it work?" "It was great. Took two folders, you know, took the loose-leaf paper." But it was like in that moment, the kid just could not accept, like, Mom's coming to the rescue. Like, and even, and again, even though six months from now they might be like, "Can we go school shopping?"
- 18:34 – 21:11
Holding boundaries: You’re not a punching bag—‘redo’ after disrespect
- BEDr. Becky
Right. One of the things I think also matters is how do we show up this way and appreciate this kind of new hormone-driven [laughs] stage maybe without totally losing myself? Because there might be a moment where you say after, "Look, you're getting older, and the truth is, pretty soon I'm gonna ask you to be responsible for your supplies, right? Because I'm not gonna always just make it better, right? But also, like, there are gonna be moments that I still wanna help, and I can, and you might not like it, but the way you spoke to me yesterday, I just know you can do better than that." Like, it... 'Cause I think parents still need permission to not feel like, like, uh, oh, so am I, am I a potted plant/punching bag?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
[laughs] Yes.
- BEDr. Becky
Is that good for my kid or for me? So what, how do you, you know, how do you think about that?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Yeah, I'm so glad you, you said that. I think a lot of parents say things like, "All of a sudden, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... around like my 11-year-old."
- BEDr. Becky
Right.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"And what's wrong with this picture?" Um, and I, I can so resonate with that, and I think that w- the way you just said that is absolutely. I mean, that's even nicer maybe than I would say it. I would just be like, "You can have your feelings, but it's actually not okay to talk to me that way, and I don't want to be spoken to that way. Maybe we can do a redo." I'm big into like, "Let's do a redo."
- BEDr. Becky
Love that.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"And maybe we'll just do that tonight. Like, we can't do it right now."
- BEDr. Becky
Yes. Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"But we need to redo that." And I think that's really is important because, again-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... they aren't doing these things on purpose.
- BEDr. Becky
That's right.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
They're not being disrespectful on purpose. They're not rejecting you on purpose. They haven't figured out yet. Think about how hard it is to go, "Okay, somehow something in my body's telling me I need to separate from you, and I need to be my own person, and I need to have my own thoughts, and I can change my mind about things. But how do I, how do I do that without just kicking you to the curb?" And so just if we can just think about how hard it is for them, they don't know quite what's happening-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... or why.
- BEDr. Becky
It, you know, one of the things that I used to always talk about, and I still do with couples in my practice who are working on their partnership, is just this baseline idea that it is a very hard thing to say something that is equally truthful to me as it is respectful of you. There's not a lot of adults who are great at balancing that. Can I say something that feels very true, "I need space," or, but it, but is equally respectful? That, that's like a life practice. And so yeah, it's true. When my nine-year-old is in this conundrum, "I'm supposed to be independent. I wanna get older. I wanna separate. Ugh, I still need my mom for school supplies," like, they're probably n- not gonna articulate that in the most sophisticated way.
- 21:11 – 23:15
Seeing their goodness in hard moments: A de-escalation that builds security
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
I also see the other side of that where people are like, "What's wrong with me?" Like, "Ugh, I, I, obviously I'm doing something wrong." I have people say that to me all the time. "I don't know what I'm doing. Obviously I'm doing, clearly I'm doing something wrong here. I don't know what to do. I'm a failure. I'm trying hard at something, but, like, I keep failing." And so there's that other side where, yeah, maybe at first it's like, "What's wrong with them?" But what I find is so much, and then it turns on ourselves.
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"What's wrong with me?"
- BEDr. Becky
Maybe the answer is this doesn't have to be anyone's fault, and it could just be like, "Hey, what's going on? What do I need to feel more empowered, to have more clarity in this situation?" And I can spend my energy there instead of kind of fault, right? [laughs]
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm. Absolutely. I mean, I know, I know, like, to me, that's a win, right?
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Your kid does something that seems, like, so rude.
- BEDr. Becky
Yep.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And instead of, like, going in there and, you know, reacting, where you just sort of, like, take a breath-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... and you're just like, "Hey, I know you don't normally talk to me like this, or you don't normally-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... act like this, so I'm just wondering, you know-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... I'm wondering what's going on, or I, I'm thinking that today maybe wasn't all such a great day."
- BEDr. Becky
Yep.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
But man, taking a breath-
- BEDr. Becky
Ugh
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... and thinking like maybe, and maybe you're like, "Well, my kid always talks like that." Okay, if they've been talking like that a lot lately, like, "Yes, it's been happening kind of a lot lately, and I know you to be different," or-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... "I, you know, you're normally such a sweet kid inside." Like, it always shifts things when it's like we're in a hard moment, and then I remind you of something that's totally genuine that is, like, that goodness.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
'Cause it then lets them know, like, you still see my goodness.
- BEDr. Becky
That's right.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Even though, like, I don't even actually know why I just snapped at you. Remember, there's that piece for them that they're like, i- if you do say, let's say, like, "What's wrong with you?" And they're just like, "I don't know. Nothing," really they're just like, "I, I really don't know. I don't know why you're so annoying. [laughs] I don't know."
- BEDr. Becky
I think it's, like, kind of the ultimate act of love is when you see kind of the good inside someone else in the moment that they actually are struggling to access it-
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... themselves, right?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Yeah.
- 23:15 – 28:49
Repair vs. apology: Owning your missteps and creating a new pattern
- BEDr. Becky
Speaking about those moments, and we're thinking about the moment that a kid does something that, you know, we probably know on some level they regret, but maybe they're in shame, they're stuck, whatever it is. What about the moments we do [laughs] the thing? We, we yell, we snap, we say horrible words to our kid. Um, we come down harshly on them about something that, you know, I don't know, maybe is more about a hard day we had or whatever it is. Like, can, I don't know, the power of repair with those middle childhood years to teen years, talk about that.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
I mean, I just wanna go back to, like, y- when someone's listening right now, and they're just like, "I don't actually even really know what you mean. Do you mean an apology? Is that what you mean?" And it's like, it's actually a little bit different than apology. Apology can be part of it.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
I think repair s- like, it's, it's, it is a little bit of an art, 'cause you're not making an excuse. Like, "Hey, you know what? I had a really hard day today, and so when I came home and I snapped at you, that really wasn't about you. It was about my hard day," right? That's pretty good repair. It's just you don't wanna externalize it.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And meaning, like, you don't wanna just be like, "Oh, okay, so every time she has a hard day, she's just allowed to come home and yell at me," you know? And then just, like, it allows you to drop deeper. Right? So just like-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm-hmm
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... I'm just gonna drop deeper. So I wanna say, A, I'm gonna imagine e- everyone's gonna lose their patience or not be their best self.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And then, B, it's like going back and just being like, "You know, it's actually, it's not okay, and I realize I've been, I have been working a lot, and it doesn't allow me to show up for you the way that I wish that I could, and I'm really sorry for that."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"And so tomorrow," right? And then you can end it with like, "Tomorrow I'm going to... Maybe I'm gonna be home an hour later, so I'm gonna stop at the gym, so I think that's, maybe that's what I need," or, "I'm gonna go grab dinner with a friend, so I'm not gonna be home tomorrow till a little bit later, 'cause I wanna come home and be the best version of myself for you."
- BEDr. Becky
Yes.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
"And I think without basically fueling myself, I'm not gonna be able to get there, and just saying I'm sorry and blaming it on a hard day isn't enough."
- BEDr. Becky
Ugh. I think the difference between a repair versus kind of a apology, I always think an apology is just trying to shut a conversation down. "Hey, I'm sorry we, I yelled. We're good, right?" It's just like you feel it.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
Shut it down.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And you want it to go f- quickly.
- BEDr. Becky
A good repair, like, opens up something new, and that's the thing you were missing anyways, like, that connection, right? What would that mean to say, "I crushed that," right? And if you think about that, it's not just about giving something to your kid. It- it's actually giving about something to you, too. What's better than being like, "I crushed that parenting moment. I am so proud"? And we're all only proud of a moment that's hard. None of us are too proud of anything easy. So, "Hey, I'm, I'm sorry I yelled, and that wasn't okay, and I'm sure that felt bad," right? Like, and you can say, "Wow, it's so weird. I had one of my hardest and best parenting moments in the same day-"
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm
- BEDr. Becky
... "in the same week," right?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Mm-hmm.
- BEDr. Becky
And I just wanna underscore what you're saying. And I think for our tweens and teens especially, it's like saying, "Hey, that secure base is still here. Still the anchor. You need it more than ever because you're doing more exploration than ever," right? And again, they might roll their eyes. It's fine, but th- i- it ma- it matters so much.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
It does. And if, I think if, like, if someone's listening and they're, they're like, "Okay, I wanna apply this to myself," I'll just share what, what-
- BEDr. Becky
Mm
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... when people are practicing repair-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... and they come back and tell me, I feel like a common theme is they say, "I was able to say to my kid, 'Hey, I'm really sorry. I've never parented a 12-year-old before,'" or, "I've never parented you at 12 before." Right? So even if you have older kids-
- BEDr. Becky
Yes, love that
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... "I've never parented you at 12, which doesn't make it okay that I yelled. I'm sorry, and I'm learning alongside you," right?
- 28:49 – 32:47
Reframing the in-between years + announcement: A new Good Inside podcast for tween/teen parents
- BEDr. Becky
Sheryl, if a parent is listening and they're just thinking, "I love my kid, but I feel completely unprepared for this stage," I don't know, what do you wanna say to them?
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Every parent has the ability to sort of say, "I've never done this stage before," maybe like, "I'm, I'm kind of scared of it," or, "I'm not really looking forward to it, and I'm really excited for what could be."
- BEDr. Becky
Mm.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
I think that's the reframe. This doesn't have to be a rupture in the relationship. This doesn't have to be, oh, you know, my baby's, like, gone and lost and they don't need me anymore. It really doesn't have to be that way. I think if we can go into it curious and, again, even with some excitement. Like, there, there are moments, I think, even when as hard as this stage can be, where I think a parent should feel that sense of like, wow.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Look at this thing happening. Like, they're 12, and they wanna take a babysitting class.
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
Like, oh, my gosh, it wasn't that long ago I was hiring babysitters for you, 'cause at 12 you can take a babysitting class. Like-
- BEDr. Becky
Yeah
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
... let's celebrate that. [gentle music]
- BEDr. Becky
Listeners, this conversation is a doorway into a new stage of parenting, and for us, it's also the beginning of a new podcast. If you're listening and realizing, "Oh, this explains why things feel harder lately," I want you to know you're not behind and you're not failing. Your child is growing up.
- SZDr. Sheryl Ziegler
And that growth asks for a shift, not just from them, but from you, too. And you don't have to figure this all out alone. Our new podcast is called The In-Between Years with me, Dr. Sheryl. We're making a space for parents of teens and tweens who wanna understand what's really happening in this stage emotionally, socially, and physically, and how to stay connected even when things feel messy, tense, or unfamiliar. We'll talk about identity, independence, conflict repair, boundaries, and trust, not as tactics to manage kids, but as ways of showing up more steadily in relationships that are evolving. You'll hear stories and approaches grounded in research findings. I'll share my stories from my own years of clinical practice and teaching, and you'll hear the voices and stories of real parents and teens about their challenges and their wins. If you're already part of The Good Inside community, this is an extension of one core belief. Kids and their parents are good inside, and we don't need to be perfect to be deeply impactful. If you're new here, we're really glad you found us. We hope you'll let us know what you think and what you wanna hear. See our show notes for ways to get in touch, and follow me on Instagram at DrSherylatGoodInside. [sighs] Okay, zooming out. This in-between stage feels hard because it is hard, and if you remember nothing else, remember this. They act like they don't need you. They still need you. I'll see you next week. [outro music]
Episode duration: 32:48
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