You're Not The Boss of Me!

1. 0:00 – 0:02

   Intro

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:00

      [instrumental music]

2. 0:02 – 0:59

   Defiance fatigue: when small “No’s” (and doorbells) become a daily power struggle

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:02

      I'm Dr. Becky, and this is Good Inside.

   2. AMAnonymous Mom0:08

      He keeps ringing the doorbell, and I said, "Please stop ringing the doorbell." And he looks at me and, you know, ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong. And it's not a big deal, but at the end of a day of, like, a refusal over everything and defiance over almost everything, it gets really grating.

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:29

      All right, if you're like most parents, you've probably experienced something like this. I mean, maybe not the doorbell, but maybe you ask your kids to put on their shoes, or clean up their toys, or brush their teeth, and then instead of their doing it, they look you dead in the eye and say, "No." So you ask them again kindly, but they still don't listen. Maybe they run away or do the exact opposite of what you just asked them to do. And then before you know it, you're in a power struggle, and everyone's upset. If you're ready

3. 0:59 – 2:49

   Sponsor break: building predictability into summer stress (Hanna Andersson)

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy0:59

      for less yelling and more cooperation, this episode's for you. I mean, let's be honest. That just means this episode is for everyone. We'll be back in a minute. Quick note. Paid partnerships keep the Good Inside podcast free for our audience. I want you to know that I take partnerships seriously, because I take my relationship with you seriously. So I only partner with brands that I trust and feel great about using in my own home. [instrumental music] Two things are true. I love summer, and summer is stressful. Well, here's something I know about managing summer stress. I can only experience fun and adventure when I also have a sense of predictability. This might be as simple as laying out my kids' favorite swimsuits the night before a big beach day, but it's also knowing that those suits will hold up for my kids all summer long. That's why Hanna Andersson swimwear is a go-to in my family. Their fabric is fast-drying, holds its shape without stretching, and blocks 97% of harmful UVA, UVB rays. What does this mean for you? It means fewer complaints that sound like, "Ugh, I'm still wet," no more sagging suits, and less guilt about being in the sun. And this year they just have the cutest selection of prints, meaning their suits will become quick favorites for your kids, too. Get 25% off your order with code GOODINSIDE at hannaandersson.com. That's H-A-N-N-A-A-N-D-E-R-S-S-O-N.com. [instrumental music]

4. 2:49 – 3:53

   A mom’s concern: “defiant for defiance’s sake” and ‘I want to upset you’

   1. AMAnonymous Mom2:49

      So what's on my mind is I have a four-year-old son, and I am very imperfectly trying to, you know, do gentle parenting [laughs] as best as I can with obviously a lot of hiccups, um, and a lot of unlearning that I have to do. But in the last couple of months, I've noticed that my son kind of seems, like, defiant for defiance's sake, and says things like, "No, I want to do," you know, "I want to upset you. I want to..." Th- those kinds of things. I, of course, you know, take a four-year-old seriously, but it's, it start some concerns, um, about how I might rekindle our relationship, or kind of, uh, what's the word? Kind of work on our relationship a little bit so he doesn't have that kind of resentment. And then also just generally, like, what strategies I can use when it's, like, defiance after defiance after defiance all throughout the day. I, I really start to get a short fuse at the end, so what strategies I can use to kind of manage, um, that kind of behavior.

5. 3:53 – 5:06

   De-catastrophizing: why scary statements don’t mean a ‘bad kid’

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy3:53

      So first of all, those words that your son says, "I wanna make you upset," or, "I wanna hurt you," right? Uh, first of all, these are words so many kids say. I actually think these are kind of things adults say sometimes, too. Sometimes we say it in our behavior. We're not as bold maybe to just say it verbally. And actually, I think over the course of our conversation, probably reflecting on how even me and you might express that in our own lives will probably give us a lot of insight into what's actually going on for our kid. Because these are the situations, right? We hear a kid sa- say this, and our mind goes to, "Oh my goodness, my kid's a sociopath. Like, he wants to hurt people. Like, he wants people to be upset." And then we're picturing them in jail, and then we're so anxious. We feel like a horrible parent. "How did I raise a sociopathic 35-year-old," right? And meanwhile, our kid is four, and we've kind of totally taken ourselves away from the moment, which gets in our way of actually helping them, helping ourselves, and then it's even more of a mess. So I promise we're gonna kind of avoid that together. We're gonna think about a different pathway. And maybe the best place to go next is can you really bring to life one example where he might say this, or maybe even where he actually did say this? Kind of the more detail, the better, so we can really get into it together.

6. 5:06 – 6:38

   Two real-life triggers: messy playroom resentment and the doorbell pushback

   1. AMAnonymous Mom5:06

      Yeah. I, I'll give two examples. So the first one is, um, he had his grandparents visiting, and I'm okay with some mess, but then when it becomes completely a disaster zone, I tell him that he has to put something away before he takes something out. And I guess he was playing with his grandmother in his playroom, and just dumped something, and his grandmother said, "Oh, they'll, they'll be annoyed. You know, your parents will, might be annoyed. You p- probably clean that up." And he said, "I want them to be annoyed," and, and just said that very clearly. And she, you know, came to me and said, "He says this. I th- you know, I think he really resents you guys, and he kind of doesn't... There seems to be some issue with, with between you guys, or, um, maybe you're too hard on him, maybe whatever." Another example is just yesterday. We're coming back from a long day, a birthday party, a, you know, lots of different activities, and [laughs] he keeps ringing the doorbell And I said, "Please stop ringing the doorbell." And he looks at me and, you know, ding-dong, ding-dong, ding-dong. And it's not a big deal, but, you know, at the end of a day of, like, a refusal over everything and defiance over almost everything, it, it gets really grating. And, and just to be clear, like, he has very good days, so I'm not trying to say that, [laughs] you know, he's always like this. But those days can be, those days where he is kind of in a defiance mode can be very taxing, and yeah, just make, make my heart hurt because I'm like, [laughs] "We should be on the same team, and why don't you like me?" [laughs]

7. 6:38 – 9:28

   Your childhood lens matters: people-pleaser parent, boundary-testing child

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy6:38

      Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear that. And just to bring another layer to this discussion, like, what, what were you like as a kid? Were you the kinda kid who was looking at your parent, going, "Ding-dong, ding-dong, I don't care what you say," or does hearing that make you think, "Oh, Becky, no, that was so not me. That would not have flown in my house," or, or what?

   2. AMAnonymous Mom6:58

      Yeah, no. [laughs] That's the exact opposite. In fact, it's so funny that you ask this question, 'cause when I was having some trouble with him, I called my dad and I said, "Dad, was I, was I like this? Is this like, maybe it's a personality, temperament thing. I've, I re- you know, hear people talk about that all the time." And he said, "No, you were notable in how well you followed rules and how well you followed instructions." Then I thought to myself, "Oh, that's probably 'cause y'all were-

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:25

      [laughs]

   4. AMAnonymous Mom7:25

      ... Marine material.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy7:26

      And look, you're bringing a lot of depth even to that own reflection, right? Where I, too, was kind of a people-pleasing kid, right? And I think a lot of us were, especially a lot of us women, right? We were kind of the, quote, "good girl." And I say that in quotes because I think by the time we're adults, we all look at that phrase with a little bit of skepticism, like, what, what cost, right? Or [laughs] how did I get that way, right? I always think babies, you know, they never come out saying, "Okay, whatever you want. I'll just, you know, stop eating at 9:00 PM and start eating again at 9:00 AM because it seems to annoy you if I wake up in the middle of the night." That doesn't happen, right? So we learn things. But also knowing, Dana, knowing that you were more people-pleasing as a kid is actually really useful in how you're gonna approach your son because you have kind of opposite ends of the spectrum, right? You were raised in a way where probably you learned, who knows how, maybe it was from punishment, maybe it was from harsh glares, maybe it was from your parents talking about, you know, how bad other kids were, and you kind of learned, "Oh, I better not be like that," right? So you learned, okay, what do my parents want from me, and how can I be that? And then you're saying these examples with your son are ones where essentially adults are saying, "I would like X," and he's saying, "Oh, really? Okay. Then I'm gonna do Y." So he sees what you want and he does the opposite, where I'm guessing you didn't even need the instruction. You notice what people want and just maybe fell into line, right? So I think just as a start noticing that's a big gap. No wonder this can feel triggering for me. No wonder this feels hard. Any time we deal in life with someone who handles a situation pretty polar opposite from ourselves, it brings up a lot. And so I just want to acknowledge that th- this is hard, and I think it says so much about you that you're willing to look at it and name it, and I can tell you're being really curious about it. Like, what is this really about? I know I don't have a horrible kid. Something's going on. Let's get to the bottom

8. 9:28 – 12:49

   Reframing ‘defiance’ as a boundary problem: words vs physical follow-through

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy9:28

      of that. And so I just, I really do think we should take a moment to, like, give yourself credit for that curiosity. It's hard to be curious, especially when our kids are different. So let's start with the ringing the doorbell example, because the first thing I wanna talk about is boundaries, okay? Very often I found from my years in private practice, way even before I was on Instagram, that parents would come to me saying these, you know, stories. "My kid doesn't listen. They don't listen, and, and not only do they not listen, Dr. Becky, like, they actually do the opposite of what I'm asking them to do." And then I hear examples, honestly, the doorbell example is one of them. Or I live in New York City, so I'd hear, "We go into the elevator, and I tell them, 'Don't press the buttons. Do not press all the buttons,' and then they press every button. And so we live in floor 20. We're stopping at one, two, three, four. What is going on? I say, 'Don't throw your cup,' and then they throw their cup off the table." So often when we see our kid as defiant or not listening, we are actually as a parent struggling to set boundaries. So let me use those examples, and then we'll come back and I'm gonna have you with me come up with a way to set a boundary around the doorbell, and I think we'll illustrate the difference. I have a son, my youngest. That child, not anymore, but for his first four years, he would have hit every elevator button in the world if he was near it. He's just like, he experiments. He's kind of risk-taking in general, right? So he's that kind of kid temperamentally, as you were saying. I want you to hear the difference. "Don't press the button. Hey. Hey, I said don't press the button," versus, "Yeah, I'm standing between you and the buttons. I'm not gonna let you press those, sweetie." And then he lunges toward them, and I say, "Yeah, I'm not gonna let you do that. We can do something else silly and fun when we get to our apartment." Okay, let's go to the throwing the cup example. "Hey, don't throw the cup. Keep it on the table. Don't, don't. I see you tr- No, no, don't. Hey, I said don't throw the cup," versus, "Oh, I'm keeping my hand on this cup with you 'cause it seems to be hard to not throw it. Once you show me a few times that you can have a cup and not throw it, I'll, I'll take away my hand. For now, I'm gonna help you drink it." What, what do you notice is the difference between those?

   2. AMAnonymous Mom11:38

      I mean, the first, you know, obvious glaring one is that we're not gonna be raising our voices-

   3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:44

      Mm-hmm

   4. AMAnonymous Mom11:44

      ... with the boundary setting. Um, so we don't allow ourselves to get to that point.

   5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy11:48

      Stop there for a sec, Dana, 'cause that is so critical. When you set a firm and loving, not just, but a firm boundary, you help yourself as a parent. Forget your kid. It happens to be good for them, but sometimes I'm like, "Forget the kids. Just for us." Helps us not get to the point where we're so frustrated, where then we end up yelling, and then after we're like, "Oh, I wish I didn't yell. I don't wanna start the day that way." And I often would say that to parents in my practice. I'd say, "Uh, you are, you're kind of allowing your four-year-old to dictate your mood. Like, you're gonna trust your four-year-old to not press the elevator buttons? Like, that just seems like a lot to put into your four-year-old," [laughs] right? You're, you're 40. You're 50. You're 35, however old you are. Let's take control over our mood, over our reactivity. So I think you're right. That's one big difference. Another, to me, big difference is starting with just clarity of our role. Like, if I want my kid to not do something, I have to think, like, I have to be sure my

9. 12:49 – 13:33

   The doorbell redo: prevent early, add play, and stay matter-of-fact

   1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy12:49

      kid can't do something. Again, I would never say to my kid, "Hey," if they were kind of impulsive, "Hey, don't run into the street." I'd probably just walk kind of to the side of them to make sure they didn't run into the street. And so, what, let's go over those two examples with the doorbell. "Hey, we're g- don't, don't ring the doorbell again. Hey, don't. Hey, hey, hey, I said don't ring the doorbell!" Ugh, right? And then we think, "My kid's so defiant. He did the opposite." What would be a way to set the boundary earlier so you don't get to that point?

   2. AMAnonymous Mom13:22

      Yeah, hold his hand, um, on the way up to the doorbell, and be on the side of the doorbell so that he's not able to ring the doorbell. So kind of manage that from the beginning.

10. 13:33 – 16:10

    Why kids need adults as the ‘external boundary’ before self-control develops

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy13:33

       Yes. A- and look, and I wanna be honest, 'cause parents also listening are like, "Oh, that seems like a lot of work." Like, it can be work. You have to be a little more mindful of it, and then it can feel sometimes like, "I just wish my four-year-old wouldn't do it. Like, I wish I didn't have to." But when it comes to boundaries, we have to be a boundary for a kid before they can be that boundary for themselves. And what do I mean by a boundary? We all have urges to do ridiculous things. Like, if I really think about it, I, I would like to press all the elevator buttons. Like, it would just be funny. And as adults, we've learned to have an urge or have a funny thought, like, "Oh, it'd be pretty funny if I took my cup and spilled water all over my husband." Like, I might have that thought, and then I say to myself, "Becky, I'm not gonna do that." And so that's a way of controlling my urge, or in some ways, I have an urge, and then I put my own boundary around it. Before kids can put their own boundary around an urge, they actually have to experience over and over and over their urge being met with their parents' boundary. And then what their body learns is I have an urge, and I remember a boundary. An urge, I remember a boundary. An urge, I remember a boundary. And then the urge and boundary kind of get close enough in time and space in their body's circuit that then they can be their own boundary. And then you can say, "Hey, let's not ring the doorbell more than once." And it's not that they're now listening to you. It looks like listening on the surface, but what's really happened in their body is they've learned the association between having an urge and not acting on an urge because now they can be their own boundary. And so, and you can add some levity to this, right? "Yeah, I'm gonna hold your hand as we walk up." And, and I know kids too. Like, your four-year-old is not gonna say, "Mom, thank you for being such a sturdy leader. You knew I'd press it too many times, and I really appreciate all the work you're putting in." No, he's not gonna say that. [laughs] He's gonna say, "Let go of my hand," right? And you can add some fun. "Hey, let's spin around in a circle. Hey, let's wave our arms up and down. Hey, let's jump up and down five times and see if then someone opens the door," right? So there can be a fun element, or you could just say, "I know you don't want me to hold your hand. Listen, sweetie, until you show me that you're able to walk near a door and not press the doorbell a billion times, I am gonna hold your hand, not because you're in trouble, not because you're a bad kid, because actually my number one job is to help kind of keep you safe and make good decisions, and right now that looks like keeping you further away from the doorbell." Like, just kind of very matter-of-fact, but I'm not frustrated because I haven't let myself get frustrated.

11. 16:10 – 19:17

    ‘I’m the only one enforcing rules’: co-parent dynamics and the ‘cop’ fear

    1. AMAnonymous Mom16:10

       I think part of the issue for me also in why maybe my boundaries have become more self-conscious, I don't know if that's the correct term, is I... A- and this is maybe specific to me. I, I don't know how useful this is, but I feel like I'm the only one in the household that keeps boundaries. My, my husband comes from more a permissive kind of background, and he tries, but it's a lot of not keeping boundaries [laughs] on his end. And so that's, that's also, I think, part of the story for me and part of why I reached out, is because if I'm the one constantly making the boundaries, I feel like my son is associating me with, like, the cop in the household, and I, and I think it's kind of... I don't know. I, at least I fear it's damaging our relationship. [laughs] Um, and that, yeah, that's the other concern I have.

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy17:01

       So I'm so glad you voiced that, and no way are you alone in feeling like, "I'm the only one who..." and, "Why do I feel like I'm putting in this effort to hold boundaries and then deal with the fallout?" And it's exhausting. I mean, it's exhausting period, and it's definitely exhausting, and it can build resentment also if you're like, "I also feel like I'm alone in that." So I, I have a couple thoughts about that. First of all, and right, my kids are 5, 8, and 11, right? And what I would say in my relationship with my kids is setting boundaries and tolerating the feelings they have because I've set boundaries I really believe is the biggest relationship strengthener I've ever had with them. There's no reward for that in the moment. N- that's what I'm saying. Our kids aren't saying, "Oh, Mom, I love you so much. Thank you for not letting me ring the doorbell." But if you think about yourself, Dana, right? If you, if you think about yourself at a party, okay, and you're at, like, at a cocktail party, and you're going around, I don't know, you go to every table, and you, like, take the glasses and throw them on the floor and smash them, and you're going to everyone you know and saying nasty things to them, "I hope you get hurt" and, "Nobody likes you," okay? And then picture your partner, okay, watching you do that And how you feel about them later. And then in a different scenario, imagine your partner, even if they have to like kind of picking you up and kind of saying like, "We're going in the car. I'm buckling you in. We're, uh- Like I- I'm not gonna let you kind of destroy the party and, and yourself." And of course, in the moment you wouldn't say, "Thank you." You'd probably be like, "Get off of me," or like, "Why are you doing this?" But I know maybe I can just speak for myself, I feel like when I came down from that moment from whatever was going on, I'd feel really grateful that my partner kind of like stopped me from doing something that was really out of control. And even if it seemed enjoyable in the moment, definitely was from a dysregulated place. What, what do you think for you?

    3. AMAnonymous Mom18:58

       Yeah, yeah, of course. Um, I'd, I'd feel, uh, appreciative that that person had like my best, uh, my best interests at heart, um, in, you know, in the long term. Um, yeah, so if you frame it that way, then that helps ease some of my anxiety, I think, [laughs] around the relationship.

12. 19:17 – 22:00

    Boundaries vs control: choosing limits that serve emotional and physical safety

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy19:17

       And look, there's a difference between boundaries and control, right? Like to me, setting a boundary, I always think about this line, and I think I've said it to my kids so many times just to remind myself, like, "My number one job is to keep you safe." I always say that, and they, they always say that. They're like, "What's Mommy's number one job?" And she always say, "To keep me safe." And I think about safety emotionally and physically. But if I think about, I don't know, my kid, which is true, my youngest wants to go to bed every night in some like full out sports gear, okay? Not a helmet, but like a sports outfit, not pajamas. I'm not like exerting a boundary there. Like there's no, to me, there's no safety concern there. If I think about my child, let's even say this, never cleaning up, 'cause that was the other example. Obviously, there's no threat to having a messy house, but if you think about emotional safety, at the end of the day, cleaning up is about kind of taking care of your stuff. It's, it's also about just doing something that's unenjoyable for long-term gain, which I personally think kids just have to do to grow up to be good people. Like, you just have to sometimes do unenjoyable tasks [laughs] for the benefit of yourself and your relationships. And so helping my kid learn the skills to clean up, even when they seem to not want to, I actually do think that falls in kind of general kind of, quote, "emotional safety," because it helps a kid relate to their frustration. But as you reflect on those boundaries, I think it's helpful for you to kind of see, "Okay, where am I really doing this from a place of helping my kid? And where might I be doing this to ease my own anxiety or, you know, more from a place of control?" And probably we wanna definitely do the former and, and probably ease up on the latter. And I think our kids feel the difference when, when I say, and I do this to my kids, too, "You have to clean up right now," 'cause I'm like looking at this room, and you know, and they're like, "I'm going to take a shower." I'm like, "No, clean up." Uh, that's just my own anxiety like vomiting on my kids. But when I say, "Look, we, we talked about cleaning up the room before you guys went to bed, and, you know, I..." Whatever it is, and like, "We just, we have to get that done. Let's think about a fun way to do it, but taking care of our stuff is really important, and if you don't end up cleaning up, sweetie, I probably will put a lot of those toys away tomorrow because it's just not in line with the way we play. Now let's figure out a way to get this done and have it fun and have some music, et cetera." So when you think about your relationship with your kids, I think that that fork really, really makes a difference. Like yes, nobody loves when our own anxiety is being played out in our kid, but setting boundaries is as important to your relationship with your kid as validating their feelings. It's a form of connection.

    2. AMAnonymous Mom21:53

       That's, that's really fantastic to, to hear it in kind of that pill form. I appreciate that. [laughs]

13. 22:00 – 23:30

    Co-parent reset: a no-blame ‘role-reversal’ experiment to rebalance the system

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy22:00

       And, and, and the last thing I'll say, Dana, on that before we kind of get back to this example, 'cause I think there's more to say there, is this is, I think, a really important conversation for anyone to have, especially if they have a partner or a co-parent. To say, "Hey, look, n- say, we're on the same team. This is not a blaming conversation." I do feel like we sometimes fall into the roles of like good cop, bad cop. Like you're the fun parent, you're the like, "Oh, Mommy's, you know, a little anxious. Let's just have fun." And then that leaves me sometimes as a little bit of bad cop, like laying down the rules. And I have found that one of the most kind of powerful and kind of fun exercises to do around this is to say to a partner after that, "Look, o- one of the things I think that could be interesting today is let's like reverse roles just for today. I'm gonna be no rules apply, ice cream for breakfast, nothing has to be cleaned up, because I'm sure you would like me to loosen up sometimes. Well, one of the things that'll allow me to loosen up today is if I know you are kind of owning the like some things have to get done in a certain way once in a while part. And so let's change it up. It'll give us each a chance to kind of experiment with the role the other one usually takes, and then tonight we can kind of talk about it and, and see where we wanna go from there." Right? And so there's no blame, there's no shame, there's no like, "You need to do this. You're not a good parent." There's actually like a little bit of a game around it, because I'm sure your partner would love you at some times to have, quote, "fewer boundaries," and you would love your partner to have more boundaries.

14. 23:30 – 29:27

    What ‘I want you upset’ really means: upset feelings, seeking empathy, craving power

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy23:30

       And so reversing that allows kind of the system to loosen up a little bit. Okay. The other thing I wanna make sure we get to are these words, like when our kid says to us like, "Well, I want my parents to be upset," or, "Well, I wanna make you annoyed," like what's really going on there? And so w- walk me, walk me through this and, and you be-- We're gonna reverse roles for a sec here, okay? So let's say I always take out the garbage, okay, in my house. And I feel kind of annoyed about it or I feel resentful, right? And, you know, my partner says something to me like, "You didn't take out the trash," you know? Like, "I'm annoyed," you know? And if I say to him, "Well, I want you to be annoyed. I want you to be annoyed," what am I really saying?

    2. AMAnonymous Mom24:21

       I'm frustrated with this dynamic.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:24

       Yeah. I think that's right. I'm frustrated. There's no one right answer. I think another thing I'm brainstorming is, well, I want you to feel how I feel all the time.

    4. AMAnonymous Mom24:33

       [laughs]

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy24:34

       Like, I always go there, and I'm annoyed, and maybe if you feel the same way I feel, you'll understand. I, I think about this especially with kids, because, I mean, honestly, I think adults do this too. Feelings are so confusing. Like, if you fall and scrape your knee and you're in pain, you see blood. Someone else sees blood. They're like, "Oh, my goodness, Dana, you're hurt." Like, it seems real. And even if you don't have blood, like saying to someone, "Well, I, I skinned my knee," or they'd be like, "Oh, are you okay?" Right? Like, there's this acceptance of realness, of physical pain. Feelings are so confusing, and I think for kids especially, and this is all unconscious, they often kind of think, "Well, unless someone else feels the same way I feel, they won't, like, believe that my feeling is real." When you skin your knee, you don't need your partner to, like, skin their knee. [laughs] Like, you kind of know, like, they get it. Like, they, they know it hurts. And so to think about your son, who's still so young, learning about feelings, "Oh, your parents are gonna be annoyed if you don't clean up your toys," and him saying, "Well, I want them to be annoyed." Like, I wonder if he's saying, like you said, "Well, I'm annoyed, 'cause I don't wanna do it." But also, they won't understand, like, how hard it is to be a four-year-old who wants to play and has to actually clean up. They won't actually understand how hard that is unless they feel the exact same way. So I want them to feel upset, not because I'm a sociopath, okay? Almost because it's a very unsophisticated attempt at gaining empathy.

    6. AMAnonymous Mom26:12

       Mm-hmm. Mm. That makes me sad. [laughs] 'Cause I feel like I should have allowed space for him to get that empathy in a different way. Maybe I pushed him in that direction.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy26:25

       Well, I, I hear that, and, and I mean this. Like, I don't think... You are such a wonderfully thoughtful, reflective parent. Your child is in great hands. Like, I think often a skill we have to build with kids, and isn't a skill that comes naturally, and it's often not a skill our parents had with us, so it's extra hard to learn, is I hear my child's words, but like, what are they really saying? And I'm sure you have this with your partner in your hardest moments, right? [laughs] Like, often even as adults, we say to someone, like, "You're never home. You're always working," and we really mean, "I, like, I miss you." [laughs] So us adults have a hard time translating. So of course it's hard to do it with our kids, too. But I think when our kids say this, "I want you to be upset," they mean, "I'm upset." They mean, "I want you to feel how I feel, just so you understand." I also feel sometimes in these situations, kids are saying, "I wanna feel powerful, because as a kid, I feel so controlled and so not powerful so much that when I wanna ring the doorbell over and over, and I watch you get annoyed, it's not because, again, there's something wrong with me. But it's one way where I kind of know I'm my own person. I kind of do feel big and powerful, because wow, just, like, ringing the doorbell seems to make my mom very, very upset. Like, I don't have the opportunity to be so impactful that often." And I think those three translations for your son will be really helpful. Like, the first one, just I am feeling the same way he says he wants you to feel. Second, this is a very unsophisticated way of trying to be believed or gain empathy, and I'm looking to feel powerful. And, and if we think about those three things, we can even go further, Dana, because my kids have said these things, too. A line that I think is really helpful in those situations to come back with, like, "Well, I want you to feel upset," is even just saying like, "I know how upset you are, and I believe it, even if I don't feel it myself. I don't have to feel as mad as you feel for me to know that you're mad. It's very real. I believe it." And when he's older and he graduates, which he will, to, "I hate you. You're the worst mom in the world," when you just say to him like, "Sorry, I just said you can't have 401 cookies. Like, you literally just had 400," right? And he's like, "I hate you. You're the worst mom in the world," to really imagine he is so upset, and he's really saying to you, "Do you believe how upsetting this is to me? Do I have to say something that's a dagger to your heart that feels the same way to you as it feels like a dagger to my heart when you say I can't have this cookie?" Which it might to a six-year-old. So I think that's just always useful. And then on the powerful front, when my kid is in that stage of it seems like they're saying no or kind of, quote, defying me over and over, number one, I'll go to the boundaries. Can I set a boundary sooner? But

15. 29:27 – 32:44

    The ‘You’re In Charge’ game: give safe power to reduce oppositional behavior

    1. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:27

       I always feel like my kid is kind of saying like, "I am begging to feel powerful and impactful in this world, and if you don't give me other opportunities, I'm just gonna find it at, like, really inopportune moments, like checking out at a grocery store or ringing doorbells." And so I don't know if you're in our membership. Are you in The Good Inside membership?

    2. AMAnonymous Mom29:45

       No, not yet.

    3. BKDr. Becky Kennedy29:46

       Okay. So one of my favorite kind of short videos there is called the You're In Charge game, probably one of the ones I reference the most, and I'll give you a preview of it, okay? The You're In Charge game is like this, and I, I truly think every kid could benefit from it. So everyone listening, let's all do this with our kids today, okay? And then the day after, we're all gonna be like, "Wow, why is everything good in the world? Why are there rainbows and butterflies and unicorns?" So this is how it goes. You go up to your child and you say, "Hey, you know what I'm thinking about? Like, it's really annoying sometimes to be a kid. It can probably feel like Mom's telling me to do this, and then she's telling me to do this, and I have to get dressed, and I have to get my socks, and I have to leave the house, and now I have to be done with screen time. Now I have da, da, da. Ugh, so annoying, right? It can feel like adults are always in charge. Well, I'm gonna set a timer, and for the next five minutes- You're in charge. You're in charge. Now, there's rules. I'm not gonna buy anything. And let me just say, Dana, I came up with these rules the hard way, okay? From my own experience with my kids.

    4. AMAnonymous Mom30:39

       [laughs]

    5. BKDr. Becky Kennedy30:39

       I'm not gonna eat anything, okay? The, the disgusting things my kids have made, you know, during. I'm like, "No, no, no." And I'm not gonna do anything dangerous. No buying, no eating, [laughs] and nothing dangerous. But besides that, if you tell me to do something, I have to do it. And you can get your kid started. So I might say, "Listen, just, just please don't tell me to walk backward. Please." And, and if your son is like a normal child, what's he gonna say?

    6. AMAnonymous Mom31:05

       Go ahead, walk backwards. Yeah.

    7. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:06

       Walk back. And I'm gonna be like, "No, you did not. You did not-

    8. AMAnonymous Mom31:10

       [laughs]

    9. BKDr. Becky Kennedy31:10

       ... just say that." And then, "Oh, oh, ugh, I don't wanna listen, but I, I guess I will," right? And you can see how you're kind of building the skill our kid will need. And then I'd walk backwards. I'd, quote, "bump into a... Ow, ow, I hit my elbow. I hope, please, please just don't make me hop on one foot. Please don't make me hop." And then he's gonna say, "Hop on one foot." And, and the whole thing should be filled with laughter, and you should resist, because that's what kids do all the time, right? Resist, model, then maybe cooperating, be funny about it. And I can still remember one time where one of my kids said, "Take a shower." And I had just blow-dried my hair that morning, which, like, took 20 minutes, and, and literally, I was like, "No, no." I was like, "Anything, anything. I just, just, I just did that." And the visceral experience, I can still feel the memory, okay? Of that moment, and how much I really didn't wanna shower. And I really mean this. Like, every time I ask my kid to do something they don't wanna do, I feel like that memory comes back a little bit, of just how annoying it is to be told you have to do something when you don't wanna do it. And so number one, the You're In Charge Game helps cooperation across the board. And I won't be surprised if he's like, "Can we play this tomorrow, and tomorrow, and play it?" Uh, you know, because he's saying, "I need to feel powerful and in control." But I also think as a parent, it really gives you an understanding, like in your body, of how annoying it is to be dictated to. [laughs] And so I think he's gonna really like that. What do you think?

    10. AMAnonymous Mom32:40

        No, I think that that's gonna make his day. I'm gonna try that as soon as I get home.

    11. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:43

        Yeah.

    12. AMAnonymous Mom32:44

        Yeah.

    13. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:44

        [laughs]

16. 32:44 – 37:48

    Repair and reset: scripts to reconnect, re-label the child, and change the pattern

    1. AMAnonymous Mom32:44

       No, that's great. Um, I guess if, if I have time for-

    2. BKDr. Becky Kennedy32:48

       Sure, sure

    3. AMAnonymous Mom32:48

       ... like one last question. Just really quickly, like, is there anything you recommend in doing some damage control? Like, because I've been doing this wrong. Um, how do I, you know, kinda reset with him? Like, I really feel like we've just gotten into these tropes. I literally say some of the same things over and over, you know? So-

    4. BKDr. Becky Kennedy33:07

       Yeah

    5. AMAnonymous Mom33:07

       ... how do I make him feel that, "You're not a defiant kid," and, you know, just damage control. [laughs] Yeah.

    6. BKDr. Becky Kennedy33:14

       Yeah. So I'm gonna... I, I often think that a question we ask is like a path we walk down with someone. And so I don't wanna walk down the path of, "You're doing something wrong." I don't think that's fair to you. I, I don't, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk down a different path. I'm gonna upgrade our path to, "How do I repair and use this to kind of reconnect and move forward in a different way?" So what I would say to him, even today, is just, "You know what? I had a really interesting conversation with someone." You can say my name. You could say she's a feelings doctor. That's what my kids always call me. "And a couple things came up. First of all, let me just tell you, you're a good kid. I know sometimes I've been saying, 'You never listen. You never listen.' You know what? You're a good kid who sometimes has a hard time, and here's a secret. Listening's just hard. It's just hard. No one loves to listen all the time. You're a good kid.' That's number one. Number two, sometimes I ask you to do something that's, like, too hard for a four-year-old to do, and I don't kind of help you cooperate, which leads to moments where I end up yelling and saying you're not cooperating." Now, meanwhile, a lot of parents may think, like, "My four-year-old's gonna be tuning out." It's okay. They still hear it. They don't have to say back, "Thank you for the profound repair," for it to really impact them. And either way, it gets you in a better mindset. And so you might even say, so there might be moments you notice, and let's say the cleaning up is a good example, where instead of saying, "We have to clean up before you get another toy. No, don't take it out. No, don't take it out," I'm actually gonna stand in front of the closet, not because you're in trouble, but because not letting you into the closet where the toys are is actually gonna make it easier for us to clean up, and we're gonna do it in a fun way. So you might notice that little difference. And then the last thing I'd say, Dana, is just, "You know, being a parent is tricky. And just like you're learning things, I'm learning things, too. And one of the things I'm really learning is how to kind of stay close and connected to you and help you when you're having a hard time. And so I feel like we're gonna be able to deal with those situations in a way that feels better to both of us, and I'm kind of excited about this next stage." He will definitely look at you and say, "Can I watch that show now?" And you're gonna be like, "Wow, did that even land?" But it did land. It, it, it, it's not over their head. I always think if my husband said a lot of kind of meaningful, poignant things to me, I might, I might say to him, now that I'm an adult, "Hey, I need a second to process," or, "I don't know if I can respond right now. Let me sit on that." Kids don't say that. They're not gonna say, "I need a second to process." They end up saying something else, but they feel the repair. They, they do. I am 100% sure of it.

    7. AMAnonymous Mom35:54

       Thank you. That is, um, I'm gonna re-listen to this and write these down. [laughs] Put them as mantras. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

    8. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:02

       And I mean this. Like, more than anything, I, I am very, like, struck by your openness and reflection and insight. And I mean this. Like, I hope you allow yourself to be struck by that as well.

    9. AMAnonymous Mom36:17

       Oh, I, I appreciate that. Well, I'm doing the best I can. [laughs] Imperfectly.

    10. BKDr. Becky Kennedy36:23

        That's all any of us are doing. Don't be fooled. Thanks for listening. To share a story or ask me a question, go to goodinside.com/podcast. You could also write me at podcast@goodinside.com. Parenting is the hardest and most important job in the world, and parents deserve resources and support so they feel empowered, confident, and connected. I'm so excited to share Good Inside Membership, the first platform that brings together content and experts you trust with a global community of like-valued parents. It's totally game-changing. Good Inside with Dr. Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhi, Julia Natt, and Kristin Mueller. I would also like to thank Erica Belsky, Mary Panico, and the rest of the Good Inside team. And one last thing before I let you go. Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and reminding ourselves, even as I struggle and even as I have a hard time on the outside, I remain good inside. [outro music]

Episode duration: 37:48