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How to Overcome Social Anxiety | Dr. Nick Epley

Dr. Nick Epley, PhD, is a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago and a leading expert on the science of social connection. We discuss how seemingly small daily interactions with strangers (as well as with people we know) can meaningfully improve our mental and physical health. Dr. Epley also explains how to reduce social anxiety using simple and easily accessible science-supported tools. We also discuss the data on assumptions — both the ones we and others make — and why so often those are wrong when it comes to social dynamics. Show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/NaH2OiO Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman Wealthfront*: https://wealthfront.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Follow Huberman Lab Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://x.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter Timestamps 00:00:00 Nick Epley 00:02:29 Assumptions about Other Thoughts; Inferring Behavior 00:09:03 Eye Gaze, Social Cues 00:14:27 Sponsors: Wealthfront & Eight Sleep 00:17:18 Tone, Voice vs Writing; AI; Public Figures & Ambiguity 00:29:59 Importance of Social Connection, Communication Types 00:37:18 Social Isolation, Self-Worth 00:42:33 Sponsor: AG1 00:44:16 Social Media, Conversation & Responsiveness 00:47:52 Social Connection & Cooperation; Adopted Children 00:57:04 Connecting with Strangers, Manners 01:02:52 Fear of Strangers, Tool: Small Moments for Connection 01:08:50 Sponsor: Function 01:10:28 Connection to Humanity, Strangers; Extroversion & Well-Being 01:22:26 Social Anxiety & Changing Beliefs; 100 Days of Rejection 01:33:52 Perceived Creepiness, Social Anxiety; Developing Social Skills 01:41:40 Sponsor: LMNT 01:43:00 Initiating Conversation, Testing Cues, Pessimistic Expectations 01:47:00 Social Gatherings; Blessings of Children with Down Syndrome 01:59:43 Parents, Shame, Children Challenges; Supporting Kids’ Pursuits 02:09:17 Outdoors, Hunters, Conservation, Social Connection 02:17:39 Modeling Social Interactions for Kids, Tool: Habits Awareness 02:27:42 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter *This experience may not be representative of other Wealthfront clients, and there is no guarantee of future performance or success. Experiences will vary. Andrew Huberman receives cash compensation from Wealthfront Brokerage for paid testimonials in his podcast, creating a conflict of interest. The Cash Account, which is not a deposit account, is offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA/SIPC. Wealthfront Brokerage is not a bank. The base APY is 3.30% on cash deposits as of January 30, 2026, is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. If eligible for the overall boosted rate of 4.05% offered in connection with this promo, your boosted rate is also subject to change if the base rate decreases during the 3 month promo period. Additional terms and conditions apply, which can be found on Wealthfront.com/Huberman. Funds in the Cash Account are swept to program banks, where it earns the variable APY. Same-day withdrawal or instant payment transfers may be limited by destination institutions, daily transaction caps, and by participating entities such as Wells Fargo, the RTP® Network, and FedNow® Service. New Cash Account deposits are subject to a 2-4 day holding period before becoming available for transfer. Investment advisory services are provided by Wealthfront Advisers LLC, an SEC-registered investment adviser. Securities investments: not bank deposits, bank-guaranteed or FDIC-insured, and may lose value. #hubermanlab Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Dr. Nick EpleyguestAndrew Hubermanhost
May 18, 20262h 30mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:29

    Nick Epley

    1. NE

      Social anxiety is something we really can help people with. Essentially, the strategy is very simple. If you are afraid of talking with a stranger or having a deep conversation, the way to get over that is not to simulate it or to imagine. It's not like you get up and you, you give a pretend speech. That's what psychologists were doing for years. It doesn't work because it's still pretending. It has to be real. You send people out in the world and to do the thing for real. You're worried about getting rejected, go out and start asking people for help, and you'll learn that your fear is misplaced, that you get accepted more often than you might guess. Exposing people to that thing that they're anxious of, when the belief is misplaced, and with social anxiety, it is usually wildly misplaced, that's what we find over and over again, is a mistaken barrier to connecting with other people. That's how you, you ease that social anxiety and get rid of it. Not because you d- do, you dull your anxiety so much. It's because you change your beliefs about what other people are like.

    2. AH

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. [Instrumental music] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley is a behavioral scientist at the University of Chicago and an expert researcher on the science of social connection. What's different about today's conversation in the context of social connection is that it doesn't just center on improving relationships with friends or family or coworkers. We do talk about that, but we also talk about the smaller everyday conversations that we have with people that we don't know so well, and the positive impact that that can have on mental and physical health. Now, I want to be clear. We're not talking about engaging in small talk for small talk's sake. We're talking about taking opportunities to connect with people once or several times per day, and the tremendous benefits that can have for people's mental and physical health, including yours. We also talk a lot about the assumptions that we tend to make about other people, both in real life and online, and how those actually match up with reality. We also talk about Nick Epley himself, because his life strongly has informed his research. We talk about his biological and his adopted children, raising a child with additional needs, and the incredible joy and growth those choices have brought him and his family by virtue of the sorts of social connections that they've brought. I must say, today's conversation went a lot of places that I did not anticipate, and it certainly inspired me to look differently at everyday interactions as far from trivial, and in fact, key to the fabric of social connection and our mental and physical

  2. 2:29 – 9:03

    Assumptions about Other Thoughts; Inferring Behavior

    1. AH

      health. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Nick Epley. Dr. Nick Epley, welcome.

    2. NE

      Thank you so much for having me.

    3. AH

      We make a lot of assumptions about other people, and in my case, 'cause I have a new puppy, about animals.

    4. NE

      [laughs]

    5. AH

      You know, we're always thinking that we know what other beings are thinking.

    6. NE

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      But as you pointed out, and as a colleague of mine in neurosciences, Dr. Carl Dice Roth, has pointed out, most of the time we don't even know what we're thinking.

    8. NE

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      Like, there's stuff going on in there, but like-

    10. NE

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... we're n- we're not that good at thinking, "Oh, that last thought was a complete sentence that means blank." That's, that's not how the human mind works.

    12. NE

      Right.

    13. AH

      So usually when we hear the word anthropomorphism, we're talking about humans making assumptions about other animals.

    14. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    15. AH

      But humans are animals.

    16. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    17. AH

      We just happen to be the curators of the planet.

    18. NE

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      So why and how do we anthropomorphize about other people, and how does it hurt us, and how does it help us?

    20. NE

      Yeah. So I think the way to think about anthropomorphism is that what we are doing is we're trying to understand what's going on within another agent, essentially. And so anything that acts independently, right? You got a ball rolling across the table. If something else bumps into it and it moves in perfect, you know, the perfect r- r- deflection off of it, you don't need anything to explain why that ball moved as it did. But if this ball's coming across the table and another one hits it and it just keeps going or it goes some other direction, well, then it seems like there's something going inside that thing that might be driving it, right? And that in, that thing that's inside that ball might be a mind, right? Might be a set of thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, some kind of psychology that's pushing it. At least that's the way we interpret what an independent agent might be doing. We do this when we think about other people, right? You're nodding your head now. I think you're thinking about something, right? You move this way or that. You wanted to do this thing or that thing. We do that same kind of mind reading, right, with non-human agents, animals, gods sometimes, the planet, even ourselves, right? We reflect on ourselves. We have experience, at least, with having certain mental states come to mind, and we use that experience as a guide to what's going on in other people, too. That kind of anthropomorphism, that kind of mind reading, right, where we infer others' thoughts or beliefs or attitudes, that's helpful f- to us for at least two reasons. One is it gives me some sense of why you're doing what you're doing now. It allows me to understand what you're doing right now. Are you trying to be kind? You trying to be, uh, aggressive? Are you trying to be friendly? But it also is pretty good at allowing me to predict what you're likely to do next.

    21. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. NE

      So if I think you feel hungry, well, you're gonna go try to eat something. If I think you don't like me very well, you're gonna behave a particular way towards me. So this kind of mental state inference, this kind of mind reading, serves us pretty well for getting around in a social world. Um, don't always get it right, but in general, it's better than not doing it at all.

    23. AH

      So as we make assumptions about others and their intentions and their past-

    24. NE

      Mm-hmm

    25. AH

      ... choices in some cases, right, like if somebody hits somebody else, we, we make an assumption about the certain things might have led up to that.

    26. NE

      Yes, right.

    27. AH

      Are we mainly paying attention to behavior-

    28. NE

      Hmm

    29. AH

      ... and/or are we paying attention to w- what theySeem to be paying attention to.

    30. NE

      Yeah.

  3. 9:03 – 14:27

    Eye Gaze, Social Cues

    1. AH

      If you are willing, I'd like to return to the example you gave at the beginning of, of a ball rolling on a table and another ball striking it-

    2. NE

      Yeah

    3. AH

      ... or not. Uh-

    4. NE

      Yeah

    5. AH

      ... you know, in the second example you gave, the, the ball simply takes off on a different trajectory, and you said that we're gonna make some assumption that the ball has something like a mind.

    6. NE

      Yeah.

    7. AH

      Something controlling-

    8. NE

      Yeah

    9. AH

      ... its decisions. What I'm about to say reflects a, a, a strong bias, which is that I've long been interested in the visual system-

    10. NE

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... of non-human and human primates-

    12. NE

      Uh-huh

    13. AH

      ... because we are so visual, and the eyes are two pieces of the brain. Uh, they're the only pieces of the brain in healthy individuals that are outside the cranial vault, and they give us a lot of information.

    14. NE

      Mm-hmm. Mm.

    15. AH

      And I think people know that-

    16. NE

      Mm

    17. AH

      ... but I don't think they appreciate just how much information they give us-

    18. NE

      Mm

    19. AH

      ... not just pupil size and whether or not our gaze is, is locked with theirs. Uh, all that's true, too, but f- if I could just alter your experiment for a second.

    20. NE

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      Let's say that first ball had eyes.

    22. NE

      Oh, yeah.

    23. AH

      And it's rolling forward-

    24. NE

      Yeah

    25. AH

      ... but then the eyes shift to the left-

    26. NE

      Yes

    27. AH

      ... and then the ball goes to the left. Now I have additional information.

    28. NE

      Yeah, absolutely.

    29. AH

      I have a window literally into the brain where I can say, "What's over there that might have motivated-

    30. NE

      Yes

  4. 14:27 – 17:18

    Sponsors: Wealthfront & Eight Sleep

    1. AH

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  5. 17:18 – 29:59

    Tone, Voice vs Writing; AI; Public Figures & Ambiguity

    1. AH

      And you mentioned voice. Um, I'm gonna make an assumption, I'm sure it's wrong, um, or at least partially wrong, that voice offers a lot of information about autonomic tone, how stressed or how relaxed somebody is.

    2. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      Uh, and I'd be curious to know, A, if that's true, what else it conveys, and also how much prior exposure to voice matters. Today's the first time I've met you.

    4. NE

      Hmm.

    5. AH

      I don't know what your voice normally sounds like in this context.

    6. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      So I'm just operating off what I've got.

    8. NE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    9. AH

      So what's in voice? What's not in voice?

    10. NE

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      And, and what, what are we aware of? What are we not aware of?

    12. NE

      Yeah, so there are lots of things contained in the voice because it, it is very closely connected to your mind. You notice that your eyes are, right? Your eyes are clo- but your, your voice is also very closely connected to your online conscious experience. You are speaking while you are thinking, and as you're having thoughts, your voi- voice can reflect authentically what's going on in your mindSo when I speed up, you can tell I'm kind of excited about something. When my voice varies in pitch, you can tell if I'm enthusiastic or not or kind of sad about something. You can pick up a lot about what's actually going on in the mind by listening to a person's voice. And there are a couple of things that we've studied in, in our research. One is voice just contains a lot of information that allows us to understand other people better, right? So if you compare typing to somebody versus talking to them, the voice allows you to, to, to determine things like intentionality, to, to differentiate when you're telling a joke or being sarcastic than when you're not, right? Well, typed [laughs] this is so funny, right? We think when we're sending off an email to somebody. Seems funny to us 'cause we know this is meant to be a joke. Person on the other end doesn't realize the comment about this person's aunt or brother or whatever was meant to be a joke, and they're all offended, right? But if you say this in your voice, sarcasm is crystal clear. Interestingly, what we find, and this is because of egocentrism in part, we're not always so sensitive to how our own communication is interpreted by another person. Because we know what we're thinking when we're conveying something, we tend to think we'll be understood equally well whether we're typing or talking, but of course, on the receiving end, it varies a lot. So voice contains a lot of information and allows us to understand what somebody's saying better. But what we also find, which I think is, at least from my perspective, also interesting, is that the voice also conveys the presence of mind. I don't have access to your thinking, to your reasoning, to, to what's going on between your ears. I can only watch from the outside, right? And I get cues. I can see your visual gaze, but I can also hear you. The voice contains a lot of cues to the presence of mind. When you're really thinking hard about something, your voice slows down and you deliberate, and that variability in the pace of your voice kinda tells me that your mind is alive. Just like I can tell that you're biologically alive because you're moving, your voice also moves, and it tells me you got a lively mind. It conveys the presence of emotion. It can preve- convey the presence of thinking. So when we have partisans, for instance. We did this, this was with Juliana Schroeder, who was one of my amazing PhD students from years ago. She's now on the faculty at Berkeley at, at Haas. We had people, this was on the eve of the 2016 election between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. We had people who were voting for Trump or Clinton say why they were voting for the candidate they were voting for, and they gave a verbal pitch. And we could get a few different cues from this. We could get an audio recorded clip, so we could see and hear the person. We could just get their voice, and we could also strip out their voice and just see the content of their text, right, to see the words they were saying. They also wrote a pitch about an, an explanation for why they were voting for this particular candidate, okay? What we then did was we had people watch and listen, listen, read the transcript or read the s- the written, uh, explanation and say essentially how mindful is this person? How thoughtful are they? How thoughtful, how intelligent, how rational, how capable of experiencing emotions are they? Essentially, they're asking, "Are you a mindful, intelligent person, or are you kind of just like a mindless idiot? Are you human-like or are you kind of not human-like, like a more like a rock?" And what we found was that when people could hear what the person had to say, either while also seeing them or just with their voice, they rated the person, particularly when they disagreed with them, when there was a person on the other side, as more thoughtful, more intelligent, more rational. This tendency to dehumanize the other side, to think of them as mindless idiots, was dramatically reduced when you actually heard what the other person has to say. So I think the voice, along with the eyes, along with eyes ga- eye gaze, but the voice allows us, gives us a lot of information, allows us to understand what's on somebody's mind and it also allows us something deeper. It allows me to tell you that you've got a mind, that you have one.

    13. AH

      It's very interesting. I, the vision piece I'm familiar with for reasons I stated before. The physical behavior piece makes a lot of sense. The, the voice piece as a reflection of an active mind is something I, I really haven't considered. You know, we'll hear sometimes that the content of people's words is less informative than-

    14. NE

      Yeah

    15. AH

      ... you know, the timbre of their voice-

    16. NE

      Yeah, yeah

    17. AH

      ... or, or something like that. I, I don't know that I completely believe that.

    18. NE

      No.

    19. AH

      I, I think that that's a, I think that's a '90s, a- that's like an '80s, '90s pop psychology-ism.

    20. NE

      Yeah. Absolutely.

    21. AH

      Right?

    22. NE

      That is a highly stylized experimental result.

    23. AH

      Hmm.

    24. NE

      All right? So you will sometimes hear in this pop psych world that 80% of what's communicated is communicated through paralinguistic. That obviously is not true. You're not gonna, I'm not gonna be able to tell you about my book just by using the tone of my voice, right?

    25. AH

      Right.

    26. NE

      So that is, that certainly-

    27. AH

      The words, words matter

    28. NE

      ... the words certainly do matter.

    29. AH

      Yeah.

    30. NE

      But above and beyond that, there are other things that matter in a person's voice that at least we find people aren't so sensitive to. So when we ask, for instance, when we ask our MBA students to give an elevator pitch, as Juliana and I did in, in one of our, one of our experiments, give an elevator pitch for their, their, their desired job, the job they want most, right? Why should this company hire you? They can give it with their voice, so we do the audio and visual, uh, we do just the audio, we pull out the transcript, just get the words, or they type their pitch. We then have people watch and listen, listen or read these pitches and say, "How intelligent does this person seem to be? How hireable does this person seem to be?" And we've done this both with people who imagine working for companies and also with Fortune 500 recruiters, too. The person seems more intelligent, more rational, more thoughtful, more hireable when you hear what they have to say. And yet the MBA students themselves think they'll be judged equally on those two. They're not. And when we ask like a separate, separate group of people, "If you wanted to communicate with somebody in a way that would make you seem most intelligent-"Overwhelmingly, people say, "I'd rather write."

  6. 29:59 – 37:18

    Importance of Social Connection, Communication Types

    1. NE

      begin with.

    2. AH

      You've worked a lot on this notion of under-socialization.

    3. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    4. AH

      If I may, I'd like to invert it for today's conversation-

    5. NE

      Mm

    6. AH

      ... and, uh, talk a little bit less through the lens of how bad it is if we're under-socialized-

    7. NE

      Mm-hmm

    8. AH

      ... and, um, explore instead how good it is if we do socialize.

    9. NE

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. AH

      Um, not because I, I have to make things positive-

    11. NE

      [laughs]

    12. AH

      ... but because ul- ultimately, I think actions to socialize more are going to be useful.

    13. NE

      Yes.

    14. AH

      And, uh, um, I'm tempted to set this up as an experiment.So as with the, the example of the ball as you gave before-

    15. NE

      Yeah

    16. AH

      ... in the most deprived condition, a human is in total isolation.

    17. NE

      Yes.

    18. AH

      Okay, so, um, another condition is they can, let's just say, text with somebody else-

    19. NE

      Yeah

    20. AH

      ... but they can't see them, they'd, they've never seen them.

    21. NE

      Yeah.

    22. AH

      Then we can ratchet that up, right?

    23. NE

      Yes.

    24. AH

      They've seen them before, they can make a phone call, they can do video chat, they're in person.

    25. NE

      Yes.

    26. AH

      I can see a million excellent arguments for while, why in-person interaction is good.

    27. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      But what is the evidence that the other forms of social interaction are good also? We hear so much about how they're bad.

    29. NE

      Mm.

    30. AH

      But we also hear about the isolation crisis.

  7. 37:18 – 42:33

    Social Isolation, Self-Worth

    1. NE

      that.

    2. AH

      One comment, one question. Um, sometimes I like a day alone.

    3. NE

      Yeah. For sure.

    4. AH

      I don't often get it-

    5. NE

      Everybody does. Yeah, yeah

    6. AH

      ... but that's because I s- I don't spend time around lots of people, but I spend a lot of time around certain set of people. I adore them, but, you know-

    7. NE

      Yeah

    8. AH

      ... sometimes it's nice to get that space. But one thing that I've noticed, uh, because when I was a graduate student, I'd run these experiments often during the holidays because I worked on developmental neurobiology. I didn't have a choice if the, you know-

    9. NE

      Yeah

    10. AH

      ... if my experimental subjects were a certain postnatal age, I was working [laughs]

    11. NE

      Yes, yes, yes, yes

    12. AH

      ... that day. It was my, my, after all.

    13. NE

      Yes.

    14. AH

      And there's this kind of interesting idea that I'm not sure I subscribe to, but, well, that I do subscribe to, forgive me, that there's something about us as humans that we really like to create action at a distance, you know? And I don't know if there's a sex difference here, but I think it's like, you know, young boys like to create like rockets or remote control car. You know, you have boys-

    15. NE

      Or fire a gun

    16. AH

      ... you know.

    17. NE

      You fire a gun.

    18. AH

      Or see, see something happen over there-

    19. NE

      Yeah

    20. AH

      ... um, that you controlled in, in a-

    21. NE

      Yeah

    22. AH

      ... in a meaningful way. And, and it doesn't have to be violent, right?

    23. NE

      Yeah.

    24. AH

      It d- we did rockets and guns-

    25. NE

      Yeah, yeah

    26. AH

      ... but it, it could've, could be something else. But this is somewhat philosophical more than it's scientific, but could it be that if we spend too much time alone, we got all this stuff in our mind, and it's very hard to create some sort of reverberation or a- or action at, at a distance that we know reflects us, and I wonder if our unconscious mind actually gets to the question like, "Do I even exist?"

    27. NE

      Hmm.

    28. AH

      Now, of course, we know we exist.

    29. NE

      Oh.

    30. AH

      We can touch our limbs and-

  8. 42:33 – 44:16

    Sponsor: AG1

    1. AH

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  9. 44:16 – 47:52

    Social Media, Conversation & Responsiveness

    1. AH

      Social media, which I spend a decent amount of time on, 'cause I teach there and I learn there, um, you know, we know has healthy aspects and unhealthy aspects.

    2. NE

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AH

      A bunch of variables there, age, what people are looking at, et cetera, how much time they're spending on it.

    4. NE

      What they're doing on it, yeah.

    5. AH

      Yeah, but social media offered people this opportunity to get out of aloneness through a different form of connection. And so if we just kind of hypothesize that having our words or our thoughts have an, a visible, a, a known impact on somebody else's words or thoughts provides some sort of confirmation that we're there. It-

    6. NE

      Mm.

    7. AH

      Kind of explains why-

    8. NE

      Mm. Mm

    9. AH

      ... you know, taking the most aggressive or out, uh, or outrageous thought and putting a comment, and then somebody responds, or other people dog pile, or they respond-

    10. NE

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... and then you're like, "I'm having an effect out there," also safely behind a wall, right?

    12. NE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    13. AH

      There's no... Um, I think we're critical of that safely behind a wall piece. You know, the, the, the stereotype that you hear online is like, you know, um, you know, Apple7689 in his mom's basement, like, you know-

    14. NE

      [laughs]

    15. AH

      ... trolling people, you know? And you... But then we forget. Like, that person's alone in their basement. Why are they doing it?

    16. NE

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Like, why is it so satisfying to them?

    18. NE

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. AH

      I don't actually believe that most of these people are evil. Some of them might be, but I- probably they want to see their words and thoughts have an effect.

    20. NE

      Have some impact.

    21. AH

      And the best way to do that is to poke or to say something outrageous.

    22. NE

      Yeah. Yeah.

    23. AH

      And so I'm hoping that whoever runs these platforms will try to create incentives for, um, more positive interactions, because I think what, ultimately what most people want is the interaction, to feel that their thoughts and their feelings matter out there.

    24. NE

      So if we can go to something even a little more concrete, if we just think about conversation, right, the back and forth. Why is it that conversation is often such a pleasant thing? It is because there is back-and-forth responsiveness in the conversation that allows me to detect that you're paying attention to me. Right now you're looking at me, right? And you're nodding at me as I'm speaking, and you'll give a "mm-hmm" or a "right" or a "yeah" as I'm going along, and that allows me to recognize my thoughts are having an effect on you in a way that's having a positive effect re- i- in return on me. And so I think very much the, that action, action at a distance, as you put it, psychologists talk about that as responsiveness or being in synchrony with another person. It's part of what makes conversation feel so good.

    25. AH

      I have some friends who are recording artists, and the only reason they still tour-

    26. NE

      Oh, yeah

    27. AH

      ... it is, it's not for the money. Believe me, the money's, in some cases, is good, but it's not as good as money they can make doing other things. It's a huge hassle.

    28. NE

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      Um, takes them away from families. There's security issues. There's all this stuff. But they get to experience the apex of collective human action at a distance based on their-

    30. NE

      Their doing

  10. 47:52 – 57:04

    Social Connection & Cooperation; Adopted Children

    1. AH

      When, when we're kids and we round up in preschool, like when they, "All right, everyone round up," and everyone tries to sit still, and the girls generally can-

    2. NE

      Mm-hmm

    3. AH

      ... and the boys generally can't-

    4. NE

      Mm-hmm

    5. AH

      ... for a little [laughs] you know-

    6. NE

      Mm-hmm

    7. AH

      ... at least until a later age. There's a lot of learning to let others speak, to kind of, like, hold things in.

    8. NE

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      So as a human psychologist, if you were to play primatologist for a moment-

    10. NE

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... and we're human-

    12. NE

      Yeah

    13. AH

      ... old world primates-

    14. NE

      Yeah

    15. AH

      ... what are the sort of core components that social connection are built on? We, we talked about dialogue. We talked about vision. We talked about sharing. Is it, you know... But we don't get a whole lot of training in this, if you really think about it.

    16. NE

      No.

    17. AH

      We, we just kinda go through school. We learn to sit.

    18. NE

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      We learn to listen.

    20. NE

      Right.

    21. AH

      You're not supposed to hit people.

    22. NE

      Right.

    23. AH

      You're not supposed to yell at people.

    24. NE

      Right.

    25. AH

      You, you know, you run around at recess-

    26. NE

      Yeah

    27. AH

      ... and, and, and so on.

    28. NE

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      And you do what other people do.

    30. NE

      Yeah.

  11. 57:04 – 1:02:52

    Connecting with Strangers, Manners

    1. AH

      What I'm about to describe might be different now.

    2. NE

      Hm.

    3. AH

      Um, but a, a good portion of my family's in South America, and I'll never forget when I was in my probably, like, late teens, early 20s, I went down there and I, I went out with my cousins to a bar. It was like a club, right, that, um... And it was so interesting because they spoke to their friends. We, we met up with their friends there. People danced, people drank, did all the things that we were also doing back in-

    4. NE

      Mm-hmm

    5. AH

      ... California.

    6. NE

      [laughs]

    7. AH

      But there was no communication with other people at this club or this bar that they didn't already know.

    8. NE

      Oh.

    9. AH

      This may have changed-

    10. NE

      Huh

    11. AH

      ... but the, then and there, the, the culture was one where you go out with the people you already know and you have a really good time, but people weren't exchanging numbers, hitting on people, da- looking at other people across... It was, it's r- that, there were these-

    12. NE

      Nice

    13. AH

      ... little pockets across-

    14. NE

      Yeah

    15. AH

      ... the room. So it wasn't this idea that, oh, when you go out in public, you go to a club or you drink or something, you, you might meet somebody else.

    16. NE

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      That, um-

    18. NE

      Interesting

    19. AH

      ... there wasn't a fear of other people. That wasn't the reason you go out.

    20. NE

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      You go out to see your friends.

    22. NE

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      And the interesting thing also was that many of these friendships had been lifelong friendships.

    24. NE

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    25. AH

      So i- in some sense, uh, I wonder, i- is this one version of how humans evolved? 'Cause we always think about this-

    26. NE

      Mm

    27. AH

      ... village of, like, 100 people.

    28. NE

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      You know, um, you know, Bob Sapolsky talks about this and, you know, we, we evolved in these culture of a, 100 or 200 folks, and you knew everyone, and everyone's in each other's business, and th- then that's how our, our species evolved. At the same time, w- we, we have different examples of, of sociology-

    30. NE

      And that strangers weren't around as much.

  12. 1:02:52 – 1:08:50

    Fear of Strangers, Tool: Small Moments for Connection

    1. AH

      Yeah, I mean, I hear from a lot of podcast listeners that the, the challenges with, you know, finding a romantic partner nowadays center largely around people not wanting to be seen as creepy-

    2. NE

      Yeah

    3. AH

      ... but also people not wanting strangers to talk to them.

    4. NE

      Right.

    5. AH

      So there's a little bit-

    6. NE

      It's impossible

    7. AH

      ... we're, we're in a little bit of an impasse right now.

    8. NE

      [laughs] Yeah, it's impossible.

    9. AH

      I also hear from people who wonder why, uh, guys aren't asking them out just kinda randomly or asking them for a coffee or-

    10. NE

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... for a number or something like that.

    12. NE

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. AH

      I think there's a lot of fear right now, is what I hear.

    14. NE

      Yes.

    15. AH

      And that fear is probab- well, it certainly is on both sides.

    16. NE

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      You know, you said you had a in-depth conversation with your Uber driver-

    18. NE

      Amazing

    19. AH

      ... on the way over here.

    20. NE

      Amazing.

    21. AH

      I mean, I, used to be that I would get into deep conversations on airplanes.

    22. NE

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      It just seems like we're, we're stuck in this, you know, capsule-

    24. NE

      I did last night coming-

    25. AH

      Did you?

    26. NE

      I did last night coming out to, to talk to you.

    27. AH

      The only downside being sometimes, uh, if your neck is turned to one side-

    28. NE

      Yes

    29. AH

      ... you, you can get off that plane with a-

    30. NE

      Yeah

  13. 1:08:50 – 1:10:28

    Sponsor: Function

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives you insights into your heart health, your hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with Function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinase, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol, and it did. In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back exactly where I want them. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is just so important for health. I mean, how else are you gonna know what's going on under the hood? And while I've been doing blood work for years, it used to be time-consuming, complicated, and expensive. In fact, I used to spend thousands of dollars per year trying to get this kind of data, and the data, frankly, were not all that good. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. A Function membership is only a dollar a day, $365 a year. And if you think about the information it provides and the health challenges it helps you avoid and the proactive things that it can do for you to enhance your health, I truly look at it as a savings. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code Huberman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman.

  14. 1:10:28 – 1:22:26

    Connection to Humanity, Strangers; Extroversion & Well-Being

    1. AH

      Yeah, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, uh, some of the best moments of my life, and I've had many, many, are really at this kind of level of in passing.

    2. NE

      Mm.

    3. AH

      You know, you mentioned like, in my mind I was saying like never underestimate the, the good feeling that comes from like a good fist bump with someone that you exchange no words with.

    4. NE

      You bet.

    5. AH

      And I, I live in a very crowded area, and so I don't go out much. But [laughs] when I do-

    6. NE

      [laughs]

    7. AH

      ... occasionally you just pass someone on the sidewalk and you just like put out a fist and like, and you feel a kinship.

    8. NE

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      Um, the other day also, um, I have a very niche but, a, very deep relationship to a certain genre of music, so-

    10. NE

      [laughs]

    11. AH

      ... just like walking down the, the boardwalk and someone goes... Someone like shouted out, I was wearing a Minor Threat shirt, I'm a big Ian MacKaye fan, Minor Threat, Fugazi. And uh, someone goes, "Minor Threat." And I go, "Minor Threat."

    12. NE

      [laughs]

    13. AH

      I don't even know where they were. You know? And so like, and like they, they... I mean, you know, it's a j-

    14. NE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. AH

      You know, I'm dating myself here by, by saying that, but, uh, still amazing band, right? No matter how old you are, uh, check it out. Um, but uh, you know, you feel a kinship to other members of your species-

    16. NE

      Yeah

    17. AH

      ... that way. I don't know who these people are.

    18. NE

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      It's interesting. It, it's, it's a whole other level of, of human connection that I hadn't thought of. And as with manners and etiquette and that kind of superficial small talk piece, I kind of assumed that, that this stuff didn't matter. That it was-

    20. NE

      Right

    21. AH

      ... kind of like, ah, well, okay-

    22. NE

      Yeah

    23. AH

      ... that's like-

    24. NE

      Small

    25. AH

      ... that's not nourishment.

    26. NE

      Right.

    27. AH

      That, that's not a, that's not a nice like elk steak-

    28. NE

      Right

    29. AH

      ... or a beautiful-

    30. NE

      Right

  15. 1:22:26 – 1:33:52

    Social Anxiety & Changing Beliefs; 100 Days of Rejection

    1. AH

      I realize it's not your specific area of work, but what about for people with social anxiety?

    2. NE

      Yeah.

    3. AH

      I mean, my first impulse is to say, "As long as you have the resources and the time, get a dog." [laughs] You know?

    4. NE

      [laughs]

    5. AH

      I'm not a big fan of dog parks-

    6. NE

      Yeah

    7. AH

      ... um, for all sorts-

    8. NE

      Yeah

    9. AH

      ... of health reasons and, but when I lived in San Diego, like I would take my bulldog mastiff puppy to dog park. I made lots of friends. He made friends.

    10. NE

      Yeah, for sure.

    11. AH

      And just a dog is better than bumming a cigarette, which nobody does anymore, right?

    12. NE

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      Met tons of people that way.

    14. NE

      So what's interesting about that is that, that, that creates like an excuse to have a conversation.

    15. AH

      Right.

    16. NE

      Right?

    17. AH

      Like the, well, no one, I'm not suggesting anyone do this, but in the old days, like you, you would, you would ask for a cigarette, you j- and you would s- then smoke side-

    18. NE

      Whether you needed it or not

    19. AH

      ... then you would smoke side by side-

    20. NE

      [laughs] Yeah

    21. AH

      ... with somebody and you'd talk.

    22. NE

      [laughs] Yeah.

    23. AH

      And sometimes there was a romantic interest, sometimes it was just a, a friendly interest, but you shared a brief experience.

    24. NE

      Yes, yes.

    25. AH

      Uh, you got some nicotine-

    26. NE

      Yes

    27. AH

      ... in your system-

    28. NE

      Yes, yes

    29. AH

      ... which no doubt affected it.

    30. NE

      And they sh- they gave something to you, right?

  16. 1:33:52 – 1:41:40

    Perceived Creepiness, Social Anxiety; Developing Social Skills

    1. AH

      You have data, I just have an anecdote.

    2. NE

      Okay.

    3. AH

      Um, so the fact that I'm gonna tell you that, uh, a piece of th- that anecdote comes from a neurologist does not mean it has any more validity than-

    4. NE

      Okay

    5. AH

      ... and it b- maybe even less.

    6. NE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    7. AH

      That was a joke against my neurology. I have great jokes about neurologists, by the way. I could do an entire podcast about the jokes against the different divisions of medicine. Maybe I'll do that sometime. We should do that, Rob. The, uh... So I had a postdoc advisor. Unfortunately, he passed, but that's not the point here. Uh, he was a neurologist, and he was an extremely friendly person. His name was Ben Barris. He used to walk down the hall. He'd say, "Hi," to the janitors. He'd say-

    8. NE

      Yeah

    9. AH

      ... he was always, uh, very good about bringing things to the, the admins up front. You and I both know they are underpaid-

    10. NE

      Yes

    11. AH

      ... at, at all university.

    12. NE

      Yes.

    13. AH

      They are tru- people always say they owe all the, uh, the administrators. Like, well, you got high level administrators.

    14. NE

      Yes.

    15. AH

      I'm not gonna comment on what they make. I don't know. Um, but-

    16. NE

      A lot

    17. AH

      ... but all the administrators at the level of like the front office, et cetera, they're underpaid, they're overworked.

    18. NE

      Yes.

    19. AH

      And he was just an extremely kind person. He was just very, um, outgoing and, um... But he was a neurologist in addition to being a scientist, and he pointed something out, which was that there would be some people who would, um, that he would interact with on campus, and we were adj- adjacent to the, the hospital, so this plays in, who you'd be friendly to. Like, "Hey, how's it going?" And they'd say, "Hey, what do you do here?" And you'd say, "Oh, well, we work on neuronal glial interactions, activity dependent development of myelination." And they'd go, "Oh, cool," like, "What's that?" And you'd have a little exchange, then move on.

    20. NE

      Yeah.

    21. AH

      Great. Healthy.

    22. NE

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      They're learning. They realize academics-

    24. NE

      Yeah

    25. AH

      ... aren't just trying to, you know, hide their information-

    26. NE

      Yeah

    27. AH

      ... no matter how busy they are.

    28. NE

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      Somebody just taking time out of their busy pace to stop and have an interaction with you, this is something that I grew up observing in my mom and it's something that I just naturally do and en- and enjoy. So it's a lot of what you described before.

    30. NE

      Mm-hmm.

  17. 1:41:40 – 1:43:00

    Sponsor: LMNT

    1. AH

      I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, LMNT. LMNT is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking LMNT makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an LMNT packet dissolved in it. I also drink LMNT dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes. LMNT has a bunch of great-tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try LMNT, you can go to drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free LMNT sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinklmnt.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack.

  18. 1:43:00 – 1:47:00

    Initiating Conversation, Testing Cues, Pessimistic Expectations

    1. AH

      A lot of people are on their phones texting with-

    2. NE

      Yes

    3. AH

      ... people they already know.

    4. NE

      Yes.

    5. AH

      They have an established re- relationship.

    6. NE

      Yes.

    7. AH

      Presumably, they're continuing to maintain, if not build those relationships-

    8. NE

      Yeah, yeah

    9. AH

      ... by doing that.

    10. NE

      For sure.

    11. AH

      And I think that, um, going back to this, uh, eye gaze thing from earlier, uh, eyes down into a little box-

    12. NE

      Yeah

    13. AH

      ... is it's a thicker shell to break through.

    14. NE

      It is.

    15. AH

      Right? Like, I don't think any of us really feel comfortable, um, interrupting somebody texting or on a call.

    16. NE

      Right. Correct.

    17. AH

      Um, it, I mean, I wouldn't do that.

    18. NE

      You would think of it as bad manners, impolite.

    19. AH

      Yeah, they're clearly in, in a conversation with somebody else.

    20. NE

      Yes. Yes, exactly.

    21. AH

      The same way I wouldn't just walk up-

    22. NE

      For sure

    23. AH

      ... and interrupt.

    24. NE

      Yes.

    25. AH

      Actually, yesterday I was at a social gathering. There was, like, three people talking, and these guys all knew each other. I was the stranger in the group. And, like, you sort of learn, like, how, like, what is this... You have to quickly assess, like, what is this conversation?

    26. NE

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. AH

      So I said, "Sorry, I don't know if I'm interrupting something critical-"

    28. NE

      Yeah.

    29. AH

      "... but if so, I'm gonna stand right here." No, I just said, uh [laughs] -

    30. NE

      Right

  19. 1:47:00 – 1:59:43

    Social Gatherings; Blessings of Children with Down Syndrome

    1. AH

      The data I've seen, um, suggests that more and more people are going to church. They're attending other religious gatherings. Uh, you know, it seems that, um, some-

    2. NE

      In rec- In just recent years-

    3. AH

      Recently. Recently

    4. NE

      ... just very recently.

    5. AH

      Oh yeah, it's really on the upswing. And, and my guess is there are a number of reasons for that. People wanna meet people with a certain set of, of values. Um, maybe they are drinking less. Who knows? You know, I, I think a, a component of those types of gatherings, um, uh, are that people generally are pretty friendly.

    6. NE

      Yes.

    7. AH

      Uh, it's pr- it's pretty inviting.

    8. NE

      Absolutely.

    9. AH

      Right?

    10. NE

      Absolutely.

    11. AH

      You know, um-

    12. NE

      Absolutely

    13. AH

      ... I mean, people still go to festivals too.

    14. NE

      Yes.

    15. AH

      Like, I didn't go, but Coachella was recently.

    16. NE

      Yes.

    17. AH

      And people tend to be in a good mood at festivals.

    18. NE

      Yes. Yes. I was at TED last week.

    19. AH

      Okay. So-

    20. NE

      And it was very friendly

    21. AH

      ... another good example.

    22. NE

      Yes.

    23. AH

      Yeah. So I'm just... You know, we could pepper with different examples, and I think it, it is important to do so. I didn't wanna imply it was just, just churches. But these kinds of common gatherings where people are there-

    24. NE

      Yes

    25. AH

      ... for their own reasons, but also to interact with others-

    26. NE

      Absolutely

    27. AH

      ... including strangers.

    28. NE

      Absolutely.

    29. AH

      And I think this, in my mind, can be pretty well explained by the fact that people were indoors during the pandemic.

    30. NE

      Mm.

  20. 1:59:43 – 2:09:17

    Parents, Shame, Children Challenges; Supporting Kids’ Pursuits

    1. AH

      Mm-hmm. Well, I've only known you a short while, and I'm in no position to, uh, psychoanalyze you, but I, I have to assume that, um, something very powerful about you, and I'm also assuming about your wife, Jen-

    2. NE

      Yes

    3. AH

      ... that your very clear, complete lack of shame about the fact that she has Down is, uh, has to be a, a positive, um, force here in this. I, I'm not trying to take anything away-

    4. NE

      Yeah

    5. AH

      ... from who she-

    6. NE

      Yeah

    7. AH

      ... who Lindsay is-

    8. NE

      Yeah, yeah

    9. AH

      ... as an individual.

    10. NE

      Yeah.

    11. AH

      But, um, I don't know if I wanna darken the conversation with, with a contrast or... But I will. I will. I won't reveal who this person is, but there's a very, very famous neuroscientist, um, who it was pretty well known that he had a son who had epileptic seizures.

    12. NE

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      I mean-

    14. NE

      Yeah

    15. AH

      ... what's the shame in that?

    16. NE

      Yeah.

    17. AH

      Right? But he was ashamed of his son.

    18. NE

      Yeah.

    19. AH

      He wouldn't bring him to events. He wouldn't bring him to things. I'm actually aware of several, uh, high-level scientists, and I don't... I have to be careful because I don't wanna paint a negative view of scientists. I could tell you a thousand-

    20. NE

      Yeah

    21. AH

      ... stories about wonderful scientists doing-

    22. NE

      Yes

    23. AH

      ... wonderful things-

    24. NE

      Yes

    25. AH

      ... for every, for every bad story. But I remember hearing this and thinking like, "This is crazy." Someone who worked in his lab said, "Yeah, you know, he's got a Nobel Prize, but he, he's incredibly ashamed of his son." I thought, like, "That's nuts." I have a good friend, in the positive side, my good friend Eddie Chang, who's the chair of neurosurgery at UCSF, and he works on epilepsy.

    26. NE

      Yeah.

    27. AH

      And they, like, you, you can treat various forms-

    28. NE

      Yeah

    29. AH

      ... of ep- epilepsy.

    30. NE

      Yeah.

  21. 2:09:17 – 2:17:39

    Outdoors, Hunters, Conservation, Social Connection

    1. AH

      You have another side of you that most people aren't aware of-

    2. NE

      Mm

    3. AH

      ... uh, that we somehow landed on-

    4. NE

      Yes, we did

    5. AH

      ... walking in here al- like, somewhat randomly, which is-

    6. NE

      Yeah

    7. AH

      ... um, you enjoy a lot of, as much time as possible i- in the out of doors.

    8. NE

      Yeah.

    9. AH

      You're a hunter and a fisherman.

    10. NE

      I am, yes.

    11. AH

      An outdoorsman.

    12. NE

      Yeah.

    13. AH

      So you wanted to be Grizzly Adams.

    14. NE

      Yeah, when I was a kid.

    15. AH

      But-

    16. NE

      Yeah

    17. AH

      ... but in some sense, you, you, you play him from time to time.

    18. NE

      [laughs] Sort of, yeah.

    19. AH

      But not out on your own. So you and your-

    20. NE

      Yeah

    21. AH

      ... and your sons, sons and daughters go-

    22. NE

      Yeah

    23. AH

      ... get out into the wilderness.

    24. NE

      Yeah, yeah. I grew up in rural Iowa, out in the country. My dad and I went hunting and fishing all the time when I was a kid. I was four years old the first time I went deer hunting with my dad, and I loved that time.

    25. AH

      Four.

    26. NE

      Four, yeah. I walked along, 'cause we would-

    27. AH

      Shorter than the g- than the rifle.

    28. NE

      Oh, yeah. No, I remember years where the snow would feel like it was up to my hips, hunting deer in Iowa in early December. And I wouldn't carry a gun until I was 12, or, or a bow. I started bow hunting when I was 12. Um, but before then, you would, you would push the deer. You'd walk through the woods with other guys, with my dad, or, or with the friends that we'd have. It was a real community of people. I mean, the, the social connection there was great. We used to go hunting with a, a guy when I was a kid, Lane McDowell, who was friends with my dad. He was a football player for the University of Iowa and he played for the Detroit Lions. He was this big monster of a man. Um, fabulous guy, and his son Thad, who would go... Who is also my same age. We played football together, uh, against each other in high school. But yeah, I grew up doing that. And then, you know, as I've gotten older, I've stayed connected to the outdoors. I love being in the woods. I love doing conservation kind of work. There's kind of an element of caring for other people that also extends to caring for the, for the woodlands that are out there. I do a lot of invasive species removal. We have enrolled 40 acres in the conservation reserve program, planted 9,000 trees on it. And I see a lot of opportunities to connect with people in places that other people wouldn't. Like, I see the outdoors, hunting and fishing. You almost never do that truly alone, right? You- I always have somebody with me when I'm fishing. I always have... You know, go out with the kids when I'm turkey hunting or hunting deers. And it's that social element that is really so important. And that, and there was an element of this, uh, that f- came, it just felt like it came right out of my research, that happened last fall in Oregon. My son, my oldest son, Ben, is a third-year PhD student at Oregon State, pursuing a PhD there. Um, and bless his heart, last spring, he asked his dad to do the thing that made me just the happiest he could have been. He said, "Dad, would you like to come out here and go elk hunting with me?" Like I, you know, I grew up in rural Iowa. The idea we'd be out in the mountains actually doing this just never was something that occurred to me that we, that we could do. But he asked if we could do it, and I was so excited. We would get a week together out in the remote wilderness of Oregon, just the two of us, sitting around trees, looking for elk. It, it doesn't matter if you get one or not, whatever. That's not what it's about. It's about being out there and seeing what, what, what you see and being together, and it was gonna be fabulous. And, uh, I was so excited. So last fall, this was, uh, October, November, can't quite remember the exact date, went into northeast Oregon, and we went out into the w- uh, out in the woods. We're miles away from the nearest road. We hike in. It's really hard. It's cold. There's snow on the ground. We got... We're not really prepared for this. First time we've ever done this. We don't have any chairs with us or anything. We got backpacking tents, freezing our butts off. Uh, and the first day we go out to scout. Um, we don't know what we're doing here at all. We're just gonna see, I don't know, where are the elk? How do we do this? We go down into this valley, and we're not there for more than 20 minutes maybe, when our time alone suddenly becomes a little more social than it would've been otherwise. We look behind us, like three-quarters of a mile up the valley, we got this group of guys coming in camo down the way. And my son, Ben, was a little nervous about this, right? A little anxiety about reaching out and connecting with other people, right? A little like you'd have somebody sits down next to you on a train. Well, maybe I'll just keep to myself, or on a plane, just keep to myself. Here we're out in the wilderness and we got this group of hunters. It's like a gang of men coming down the, down the valley towards us, all in camo. And so Ben's going, "You know, let's, let's move on, Dad. Let's, let's get going." And I said, "No, let's, let's stay and talk with these guys." And we wait, they come down, and we start talking. It turns out these guys have been hunting in this valley, in this area, for years, for decades. The older guy, Dennis, had been going with another older guy. I think they'd gotten connected through their church. The, the other older guy had passed away recently. But they, now they have another guy, Corey, who they'd, who'd gotten connected to them. And the, the kids are all with them, Eric, and, um, and there were, I think there were, there were five at the time. And we just started talking, and then they start telling us how to do this, and where we could go, and how we could coordinate with each other to make sure we weren't, you know, we both had the best time that we could. And they told us, "Well, there's a blind up here where you could hunt, and, and you could go down there and hunt in this other spot." And we just started working together, and they were delightful. Just like, like, just like it is when you reach out to connect with other people. They reach back to you. They invited us to their tent for dinner. I'll just never forget, they got this huge, this amazing wall tent. They've got a camp stove. They've got a, a spring where they get fresh water. They got a bathroom where they are. Uh, we walk into their tent. It's heated. We're freezing our tuckus off in the snow. We walk into their tent. The first thing they say to us, "Would you like red or white?" They got wine in their [laughs] din- their cabin, miles from it. These guys were fabulous. And it turned an event that was great for Ben and I into an even better event, 'cause we connected with these men, who now, just yesterday, Corey sent me a text message saying, "It's time to apply for your elk tags. This is when we're gonna go, and this is we're gonna come out, in case you wanna do this with us again." And in fact, Corey, um, Corey got an, got an elk the first day, right? He filled his bull tag. And we were coming back from hunting. Ben and I had seen one, but weren't able to get a shot at it. It was still amazing to see one. And we're walking back, and the, the young, young kids, Eric, uh, is leading this groupHe says, "Get on down there and show Corey how to bone out that, that elk." I've boned out many, many deer, so it is the only red meat we eat is the venison that, that I get. And, um, so I know how to butcher these animals and prepare them to, to eat. And they had just been hauling out these big quarters of animals, like 100-pound ribcage, right? There's a lot of bones that you don't need to be hauling out. So I got to go down and help Corey and show him how to bone out the back strap and the loins and all the meat that you actually eat, and leave the bones that are there for the, you know, the cougars and stuff to get later. And it, it was, it was, it was fabulous, right? And that, the courage that I had to talk with them, to connect with them out there, again, I felt just came straight from my research, to how easy it is to underestimate how positively other people will respond when you reach out to them. And here it would've been easy for us to be competitive or avoid this, and it was such a blessing to have connected with them. And we've stayed connected with them since, since, and I hope, I hope we see them again in the fall out there in the woods. It would be fabulous. Wonderful men.

    29. AH

      That's awesome, and thanks for putting in a, a strong, clear, uh, ethical picture of hunters. I think a lot of people have a picture of hunters that is very different than what you just described.

    30. NE

      Yeah.

  22. 2:17:39 – 2:27:42

    Modeling Social Interactions for Kids, Tool: Habits Awareness

    1. AH

      And what a great, uh, lesson for your son. He's lucky to have you as a dad.

    2. NE

      It was a wonderful week.

    3. AH

      I can say that, you know, it's awesome. I was [laughs] reflecting on a couple things which leads me to, uh, probably what is are the final question in, in a minute or two. But I was just sort of chuckling inside at one moment because, so you're describing that, I'm thinking, okay, so my dad was a theoretical physicist, right?

    4. NE

      [laughs] Yeah.

    5. AH

      So bringing me to work was a little different.

    6. NE

      [laughs] Right.

    7. AH

      I mean, we did ma- a great many things together, but-

    8. NE

      Right. [laughs]

    9. AH

      ... but, um, but he realized, and, uh, he's, he's, uh, quite, quite smart, and he realized that, um, showing me a bunch of equations on a, on a whiteboard wasn't, wasn't gonna cut it. So I'll never forget, um, he started off as an experimentalist, and so my first, you know, w- like go to, go to work with Dad day was he took me into the lab, and they had all these fruit out-

    10. NE

      Oh

    11. AH

      ... and a big tank of liquid nitrogen.

    12. NE

      Oh.

    13. AH

      And we spent the day dipping bananas-

    14. NE

      Oh my goodness

    15. AH

      ... into liquid nitrogen and smashing them on the walls-

    16. NE

      Oh my goodness

    17. AH

      ... which for like a six-year-old kid was like the pure delight.

    18. NE

      Oh, that's the most awesome thing.

    19. AH

      I went back to school telling all my friends-

    20. NE

      Yeah. [laughs]

    21. AH

      ... that I could shatter bananas and all this stuff.

    22. NE

      It was great.

    23. AH

      So it wasn't quite what you described, but I've, I've fishermen on my mom's side and, um-

    24. NE

      Yeah

    25. AH

      ... and my, my girlfriend's family. She's got a long-

    26. NE

      [laughs]

    27. AH

      ... long line of hunters, uh, and, and farmers. So I think they're gonna put me to the test soon. But-

    28. NE

      Well, here's to parents-

    29. AH

      You know

    30. NE

      ... doing great things with their kids.

Episode duration: 2:30:24

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