EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,301 words- 0:00 – 2:18
Chris Voss
- AHAndrew Huberman
(instrumental music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Chris Voss. Chris Voss spent more than two decades as an agent with the FBI, or Federal Bureau of Investigation, where he was a lead crisis negotiator and a member of the Joint Terrorist Task Force. Chris is also the author of a phenomenal best-selling book entitled Never Split the Difference. In addition, he has taught courses in negotiation at Harvard, at Georgetown, and at the University of Southern California. As a world expert in all forms of negotiation, today Chris teaches us about how to hold hard conversations where we are seeking particular outcomes, or perhaps where we don't know what the optimal outcome could be. He talks about this in the context of business, in the context of relationships, including romantic relationships, but familial and work relationships as well. And he talks about how we should think about ourselves in the context of negotiations so that we can all arrive at the best possible outcomes. Indeed, during today's episode, you will learn to pay attention to emotions, not just other people's emotions but your own emotions, in order to determine whether or not you are processing the information you're hearing accurately, and equally important, whether or not you are being heard accurately when you are in a discussion of any kind, but especially heated discussions. In addition, we discuss the role of both physical and mental stamina in the context of difficult conversations, negotiations, and decision-making. Because in the real world context, oftentimes those can take place not just within a single conversation, but over the course of several days or even several weeks, months, or years. Chris also teaches us about deception, that is how to determine if somebody is lying by asking particular types of probe questions. Thanks to Chris Voss's both breadth and depth of expertise in the negotiation process that he gleaned during his more than two decade service in the FBI, as well as his generosity in sharing that information, by the end of today's episode, you will have an excellent understanding of what the negotiation process is really all about and how to better carry out those negotiations so that they can best serve you and others.
- 2:18 – 4:59
Sponsors: Plunge & ROKA
- AHAndrew Huberman
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Plunge. Plunge makes what I believe is the most versatile at-home self-cooling cold plunge for deliberate cold exposure. I've talked numerous times on this podcast about the many benefits of deliberate cold exposure. Deliberate cold exposure, especially deliberate cold exposure done up to the neck in water, can be used to achieve a number of important endpoints related to mental health, physical health, and performance. Plunge uses a powerful cooling filtration and sanitation unit to give you access to deliberate cold exposure in clean water whenever you want. I've been using a Plunge for more than two years now, and I can tell you that it makes it very easy to get your deliberate cold exposure at home. It doesn't require much cleaning. In fact, it's very easy to keep clean, which is essential. You don't want bacteria and other things growing in your cold plunge. Basically, everything about the plunge is made easy so that anyone, including myself, can get their deliberate cold exposure on a regular basis at home. If you're interested in getting a Plunge, you can go to Plunge, spell P-L-U-N-G-E, .com/huberman and get $150 off your cold plunge. Again, that's plunge.com/huberman for $150 off. Today's episode is also brought to us by ROKA. ROKA makes eyeglasses and sunglasses that are of the absolute highest quality. I've spent a lifetime working on the biology of the visual system, and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend with an enormous number of challenges in order for you to be able to see clearly in different environments. ROKA understands the biology of the visual system and has designed their eyeglasses and sunglasses so that you always see with crystal clarity. Originally, their glasses were designed for performance, that is for running and cycling and for sport, and indeed they can still be used for performance. They won't slip off your face if you get sweaty. They're extremely lightweight. But I should mention that ROKA eyeglasses and sunglasses come in some of the aesthetics more typically associated with performance glasses, like those cyborg-style glasses, but they also have a number of styles that you would be perfectly comfortable wearing out to dinner or to work. I wear readers at night or when I drive, and I wear sunglasses during the day if I happen to be driving into bright light or outside and it's just overwhelmingly bright. I do not wear sunglasses when I do my morning sunlight viewing to set my circadian rhythm, and I suggest that you do the same. If you'd like to try ROKA eyeglasses or sunglasses, you can go to ROKA, ROKA.com and enter the code Huberman to save 20% off your first order. Again, that's ROKA, ROKA.com and enter the code Huberman at checkout. And now for my conversation with Chris Voss.
- 4:59 – 11:41
Negotiation Mindset, Playfulness
- AHAndrew Huberman
Chris Voss, welcome.
- CVChris Voss
Andrew, a pleasure, man.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I've been wanting to talk to you on record for a while. Uh, you are quite the, what we call in science, N-of-1, when somebody is a true sample size of one. Uh, I realize-
- CVChris Voss
Thank you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that yes y- you are because you have this incredible skill set from your time in the FBI, y- but you also have an incredible understanding and knowledge of how to communicate about that skill set so that people can glean useful information from it. You are also the guy that I text or call every once in a while when I've, uh, run myself into a jam or when I think I might be in a jam and I won't reveal details, but you tell me whether or not things are okay, and fortunately the last couple times I reached out you said, "You're good."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So thank you.
- CVChris Voss
Always happy to help, man.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, thank you. Well, I have a lot of questions today, but what I'd like to start off talking about is negotiations take many forms, but if we could break those down into their broad categories, that will be useful.But before we do that, I want to know about the mindset that you have when you go into a negotiation and whether or not there are any sort of practices. I realize you've been in this profession a long time, and so it perhaps became reflexive to you at some point. But all of us at some point are going to go into negotiations, business negotiations, relationship negotiations, et cetera. Is there a process of getting one's mind and body right for a negotiation? You know, shifting from more listening and less talking or, um, what... Are there any tools that you use on the regular that could be, um, useful for us to keep in mind as we extend into the different categories of negotiations and ways to approach those negotiations?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, there can, there can be a couple different... Um, first of all, just trying to figure out what re- what's really going on is, is the real issue, and then how can I get an approach where I'm most likely to get the best possible outcome? Um, so there, there's always more than meets the eye, and there's a certain cl- there's a certain few cliches, but the real issue is there's always a better deal or, um, there's no deal at all. So first of all, trying to... My first thing is I want to find out whether or not there's a deal at all or whether or not it's a bad deal, and then I'm going to walk away really fast because those are going to be complete wastes of time. Um, it's not a sin to not get the deal. It's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal. What's a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal? So I, you know, I want to know... I'm going to try to figure out real quick whether or not... Is there a cutthroat on the other side of the table? Is it somebody I could trust? I'm, I'm getting... I'm leaning a little more inclined to dealing with the difficult people now, as long as I don't give in. So I got to... I want to diagnose early on what the possibilities are. Now, if I'm curious, if I'm actually interested. Now, another aspect of the mindset is, like, if I'm in a great mood, like, if I'm just going to be playful... A couple of really huge personal negotiation wins recently was when I was just trying to be playful. I mean, I was just... I was in a great mood, and I'm joking around, and great negotiation is not exciting. It's astonishing. Um, I'm in a con- we're in conversations right now with a possible non-scripted TV show, and so I was telling the producers, "You know, this ain't going to be Real Housewives." Um, for... To make this show properly, there ain't going to be any screaming. It's not going to be Bar Rescue where we're yelling at people. We're not going to be Hell's Kitchen where we're yelling at people. It's never going to be exciting, but it is going to be astonishing. Like, you'll get outcomes where suddenly you find yourself in a place like, "What in the world? How did that just happen?" And so I, I lose a suitcase in an airport the other day, and I'm walking into the lost luggage place, and I'm in a great mood because I'm home, and I'm happy to be home, and I'm going to get a good night's sleep, and even though it's late in the day, I'm just happy, and I get ready to walk into this... the lost luggage store where these people are battered children. Like, they expect you, uh, they know that you expect them to wave a magic wand, and poof, your luggage is going to be there. So for whatever reason, that's what I sa- say when I walk in the door. This young lady says, "How can... How can I help you?" "Well, first of all, how you could help me is obvious because I'm in a lost luggage. There's only one reason-"
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
"... I'm in here." So that's kind of a silly question. And I go, "I need you to wave a magic wand." And she just laughs, and she looks at me. She ends up walking me out to the carousel, climbing up on the carousel, and she walks down a ramp the luggage comes out of, and I guarantee you they're not supposed to do that, and she sticks her head in. She looks around. She comes back out. And I've never seen any of these people leave the office, let alone walk back to the carousel, and she says, "Wait here." And she, she disappears into the bowels of the airport, which, like, looks like a superhighway down there, right? Like, God knows what it looks like underneath the airport. And pretty soon, the carousel starts up again, and my bag and another bag pops out. This other poor schmuck is sitting there waiting, and I'm like, "I have never seen anybody do this ever." Like, normally they say, "Uh, he- here's a number. We'll call you in 24 hours. It might show up at your house." And I lo- and I look around at the, uh... There's another young lady there, and I say, you know, "Please tell her thank you for me. I, I got to go because she, she doesn't come back out for, like, almost 10 minutes." And on my way out, she, she comes out the door, and she high-fives me, and she says, "How's that for waving a magic wand?" And that was the magic phrase, and I never would have said it to her if I wasn't playful in a moment, and I've got a couple of others like when I was just playful, and I'm joking with people almost at my expense. It's shocking, astonishing what you can get people to do if you, if you hit them the right way.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So interesting. I wonder what it tapped into, but it sounds like it, it might have tapped into her sense that everybody's always asking me for a magic wand kind of ability, but finally, somebody just said it directly, and that would be-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... kind of fun to, to actually play that role because normally they're restricted to their keyboard and their phone and-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know? Uh, I love that.
- 11:41 – 18:59
Calm Voice, Emotional Shift, Music
- AHAndrew Huberman
On the opposite side of that spectrum, if ever you're feeling tense, stressed, jet-lagged, angry, um, you know, I can think about negotiations where, like, people are trying to keep their egos in check. They want to be right, um, you know-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Their breakups, negotiations, uh, there's those not necessarily romantic breakups that could include that but also professional breakups, you know, the, the dissolution of a, of a contract or something like that.... do you ever have to check yourself? Like, okay, I need to-
- CVChris Voss
All the time.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I need to, I mean, I imagine being calm is better than not being calm for most, uh, most all things. Um, uh, do you have a process of doing that? You seem like a pretty steady guy. I've never seen you, uh, lo-
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Overall, I'm pretty steady. Um, well, the late night FM DJ voice that, um, I'm not sure that I coined the phrase, but kind of famous for, to calm you down also calms me down.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So if I get bent out of shape, um, I will, and the, uh, conversation gets heated, I'll switch into that voice with the intention of, of calming you down, because that, you know, that's the, that's the hostage negotiator's voice. But it'll calm me down too. Like, intentionally going to that voice tamps down the negative emotions, which I'm convinced make me dumber in the moment, interfere with my capacity to process information. Got reasons for that, layman's reasons. No scientific, academically gr- rig- rigorous studies that have been in any journals.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, after you, you're done, I'm going to tell you something that will perhaps be astonishing to you...
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... as to why there's real neuroscience behind that late night FM DJ voice having an impact on other people's brains.
- CVChris Voss
But I, yeah, and, and I'll do that because it calms me down. Now, if I can, if I can make the shift, the hard part is a shift into a positive mindset. If I can make that shift, but I can only make it from a calm voice. I also think it's the emotions are kind of a rock, paper, scissors sequence. I don't think you can go from sadness to elation directly. A sad, um, depressed down. I think there's something to, um, getting angry to pull you out of sadness. And I think if you're angry, you've got to go to calm next. And so, but if I can get out of anger and go to calm, then I can say something to myself, like, the reality is this is a luxury problem, or I was in a negotiation with a counterpart that I knew was deceiving, lying to me, and I remember saying to myself, "You know, I'm lucky to be in this negotiation. I mean, they wouldn't, they wouldn't be trying to hustle me if we weren't really good, if we didn't have a product that was phenomenal. I wouldn't be targeted a- at all. So I'm actually lucky to be in this conversation." So if I can make that next shift emotionally, then I'm good. The hard part is making those shifts.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm going to just share with you what I learned recently about sound and emotion. Um, I'm researching an episode on music and the brain. Fascinating topic.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Believe it or not, there's a lot known, and the auditory system has this property where, of course, there are neurons, nerve cells that respond to different frequencies of sound. Low, low frequency, you know, deeper tones and high frequency, squeals and that sort of thing.
- CVChris Voss
Right, right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay. That's pretty straightforward. Just like we have neurons that respond to different, different colors or different, uh, you know, angles of light in, in the room.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But what I learned and I confirmed with a good friend of mine who's a auditory neuroscientist and, and neurosurgeon, his name's Eddie Chang, he was a guest on this podcast previously, is that low frequency sounds of the sort that your voice is, that late night FM DJ voice, are responded to in the brain by neurons. No surprise there. But the frequency that those neurons fire is also low frequency. In other words, when you speak in your low voice-
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... the other person's brain hears that and starts firing in a low frequency tone.
- CVChris Voss
Oh, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In other words, it entrains to your voice, not just the timing, but it's actually like you're essentially playing an emotional piano down in the low keys of their-
- CVChris Voss
Oh, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... of their mind. Now, when you go up to the high frequencies, the neurons can't follow that h- high frequency. So there's something special about low frequency sound that actually changes the emotional tone of the people that hear that low frequency sound. This is wild, right? I mean, I mean, of course the content of the words matters too. But anyway, there's, there's real neuroscience to support, um, the voice that you were endowed with and that you, uh, that you employed for your work.
- CVChris Voss
Well, then, and then also the point then too is it's not... The other side's not making a choice. It's an involuntary reaction.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's right. This is not something one can override except by perhaps plugging their ears. (laughs)
- CVChris Voss
Right, right.
- 18:59 – 28:38
“Win-Win”?, Benevolent Negotiations, Hypothesis Testing
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'd like to talk about some different types of negotiations. Um, oftentimes, I think because you're a former FBI negotiator, anti-terrorist task force, this kind of thing-
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, we tend to focus on the negative negotiations, right? Get the hostages away and we'll talk about that stuff. Um, breakups, business deals that have gone wrong, um, people lying, cheating. What about negotiations that are benevolent? Let's say that two people want to, um, come to a, a true win-win around, you know, what they, each see to be their best interests in, let's say, friendship. Two friends taking a trip together on vacation.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Who's gonna pay for what? Who's gonna pay up front? Are people gonna pay each other back? Um, or a romantic relationship. Two people are considering, you know, fusing finances to some extent or moving in together. What sorts of questions should people be asking themselves prior to those negotiations? In particular, is it very important that people know exactly what they want going into a negotiation or... I, I can recall many times when I've gone into life circumstances knowing I wanted a certain set of feelings or outcomes, but not being extremely specific about, you know, I want this salary. I want to live in, you know, in a west-facing house on this particular location. You know, an exploration, um, can inv- of potentials, um, I think can also take the form of negotiation. So w-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... how d- how should people think about approaching benevolent negotiations, like where we're not talking about something tragic happening if it doesn't go through. It might hurt, it might be a little bit high friction, but let's talk about how to get to a win-win.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, well there's, there's a couple of interesting things there. First of all, you know the phrase win-win. Um, uh, because w- win-win is just great collaboration. I mean, in point of fact, it should be win-win, which might only be emotional win-win.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Now the phraseology win-win, I know that if someone s- opens a negotiation with me and they say right off the bat, "Look, I wanna do a win-win deal with you," that correlates extremely highly with someone who's trying to pick my pocket.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
So I... If you use that phrase in the first five minutes, I already know where you're coming from. You're trying to get me to drop my guard. It's you win, I lose. So, and this came up on an Instagram post I put up recently, which is essentially why don't... Watch out for the person who says win-win. Now, I didn't say win-win is bad. I said watch out for the person that says it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
Also, you gotta be cautious if, if you like some of the win-win mindset, then people set themselves up to just get slaughtered by the person who's expressing a desire for win-win and looking to pick their pocket. Like, if I feel win-win in my heart and you go, "Let's do a win-win deal," if I don't watch out, I'm like, "Okay, what do you want?" And then I find myself giving away the store. So there's a lot behind the win-win phraseology that you have to have a complete understanding of. In point of fact, both sides should feel good about the outcome. And isn't that the d- definition of win-win? Well, kind of sort of. But it's how they feel about it more than really what they got. So in a benevolent negotiation among friends, where are we gonna go to eat? Uh, where are we going on vacation? What route are we gonna take? People really just want to be heard out more than anything else, which operationally seems to be, I don't understand how it's gonna make any difference. Makes all the difference in the world. And how, what's the best way for somebody to feel heard out? Well, I'm gonna start out by telling you, describing to you, not telling you, but describing to you what my best guess is on your perspective, because it's really calibrating me actually finding out what your position is. And the only way I can find out what your position actually is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna increase you telling me if I start taking a guess at it first. 'Cause you're immediately, right away, you're the, you're immediately gonna tell me either I'm right or I'm wrong. You're gonna correct me. Correction is, um, is a satisfying thing to do. And you're gonna be much more candid with me if you're correcting me than if I'm asking you. So I'll... And you'll feel good about correcting me. So it's gonna... Uh, there's all these great emotional lubricants to me getting you to correct me. So I'm gonna start out by saying like, "Here, here's, here's what I think you're thinking, here's how I think you're approaching this, here's what I think you're wanting out of this, out of this." Not what you should be, but what you probably are based on your perspective. And that's gonna accelerate the conversation exponentially. Like, it's ridiculous how much faster things are gonna go. And then it becomes both an in- information gathering and a rapport building process simultaneously instead of separately, which is what makes this approach faster even though it seems more indirect. So if we're getting ready to, let's say you and I are gonna take a car trip to Califor- uh, to San Francisco from here.... and I'm going to say, "All right, so my guess is you want to take the most direct route because you hate wasting time." And you're probably going to say to me, "No, no, no, no, no, I want to go up the Pacific Coast Highway because it's a beautiful s- s- stretch of, uh, country." Like, I realize it's going to be a waste of time if we go up the Pacific Coast because we got to jump off it at some point, but I really want to see the scenery. You would have... I've taken a guess at what you want, and you're going to come back real quick and correct me. And then, maybe, I'm thinking time on the trip, but I've forgotten how beautiful it is to roll up the coast. And so when you throw that out, I'll be like, "Oh, yeah, it is a beautiful ride, and we might not get another shot." Like, who knows what's going to happen? So, yeah, no, now, now that we're having a conversation, I'd rather run up the Pacific Coast Highway before we, before we go inland and make the trip. And that, and that's how we get to a, um... We collaborate for a better, a better outcome, maybe a better idea than what I had in mind in the first place.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love that, because what you just described is hypothesis testing.
- CVChris Voss
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's the way scientists are trained. You know, many people don't know this, but they teach us in science not to ask questions, but to start with a question, like, you know, uh, I don't know, how does this... Uh, how does the brain develop, or something? And then you, you say a hypothesis, and you test hypotheses, and then you figure out if they're right or wrong, and that takes you through a set of decision trees, and you eventually get at what you hope is some core truth, um, and then hopefully others arrive there as well and you get a consensus. So, I love the idea of hypothesis testing. In fact, when you said, uh, take the most direct route from where we are now, uh, in Los Angeles to, uh, San Francisco, um, I like to take 101, not the 5. The 5 is faster, so I immediately think... But I like 101. First of all, there are a couple really great taco and hamburger spots along the way-
- CVChris Voss
Ah, right. Right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that I used to stop with my bulldog and get. Also, you get to see it, the coast, and it makes those extra two hours completely worth it. And so you're exactly right in, um, in that working through the decision tree doesn't necessarily mean, um... Presuming that the, the hypothesis is right, it sounds like you'd be equally okay with the hypothesis being wrong, because really what you're trying to do is just learn, and in learning, set up-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... this collaboration.
- CVChris Voss
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love that.
- CVChris Voss
And, and a couple of things. First of all, when you, you talk about hypothesis and when, when my son Brandon was involved in a company, he's on, he's out on his own now, but he used to always say, "Hypothesis, test your hypothesis." He always used that term. And then, even now, like if we were talking about it and you just said you knew some hot dog and hamburger places, I'd be like, "Holy cow, I didn't even know that. Yeah, I want, uh, yeah, I want to check those places out." So, that's how you discover new stuff in a conversation.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love it. So, um, and also I'm sure people are noting to not say the words "win-win" when approaching-
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... any kind of negotiation. W- what do you think it is about those little, um, catchphrases that, that signal lack of authenticity or trustworthiness? Because you could imagine that somebody, you know, I come to you and say, you know, "Hey, Chris, like, let, let's, um, I don't know, let's do some collaborative thing for social media or for our podcast, and, um, there's going to be a win-win for both of us." Now I know to never say that with you. But you could imagine that somebody really means that.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, but for you, it sounds like it's a flag that, um, they're trying to pull one over.
- CVChris Voss
It's a, it's, uh, it correlates really strongly with the people that are definitely trying to cut your throat. And I've had, I've had them admit that to me candidly.
- 28:38 – 32:46
Generosity
- AHAndrew Huberman
conversely, what sorts of openers, um, do you think establish the best rapport and, um, you know, benevolent discovery of a topic?
- CVChris Voss
Well, what I'm seeing correlates real strongly with people I want to do business with. If, if they figured out something that they know is valuable for me and they've just done it, and they've just offered it, like right off the bat, no strings attached, they've, they've found a way to drop something on me that's valuable. They didn't approach me with their hand out. They approached me with some sort of generosity. Like, um, a friend of mine, Joe Polish, runs this outfit called Genius Network. Joe bel- he says life gives to the giver. Um, like, Joe did a bunch of favors for me before I ever joined, and he was trying to help me out and get my book sold, and he asked me to come in and speak, and he'd, he'd done a, he'd emphasized my book on his podcast and in different conversations. And I, you know, I, I finally paid the fee to join because he had done so much for me. Like, there's not much Joe could ask me for right now, 'cause he's done so much for me that he gets a blanket pretty much yes right away. "What do you want? What, what do you want? What do you need?" Because he's just generous. And the generosity approach... Universally, I'm seeing a lot of really successful people that lead by generosity. And so if, if you start out that, you know, if you, if you give me a five-star review of the book on Amazon, no strings attached or anything, like, that goes a long, long way to somebody who wants to establish a long-term relationship and collaboration.
- AHAndrew Huberman
When I first opened my laboratory in, uh, 2011, I had a technician at the time, uh, who had been a technician for a lot of years, and there's this culture in science of people borrowing things from laboratories and not giving them back or breaking them. These could be little things like a, you know, small instrument or a forceps, um, but...... you know, as a student or post-doc, these are the things that you covet. Like a really nice paraforce apps, is like a great thing, you know. You drop them once, they're not, they're not good anymore, by the way. It's like they're, they're-
- CVChris Voss
Oh, wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you have to treat them with respect. Surgical tools have to be treated with respect.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Th- these are very fine instruments. And people used to come by our lab all the time and borrow stuff from us. And he'd always lend it out. I was like, "What are you doing?" But any time I went to go borrow something, he'd say, "Do not borrow anything from anybody else because then we're going to owe them. Right now, everybody owes us-"
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
"... everything." And I was like, "You're running up our budget giving away these instruments." They'd come back with the forceps dent in still. He said, "Just trust me, this is the way to do it." And I don't recall ever, quote unquote, cashing in on any of that, but he was exactly right. When I eventually decided to move institutions, we'd given away so much and we'd asked for so very little, maybe nothing, that, you know, it's, when you leave a place, typically, there can be a little bad blood.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And all we got was, "Sorry to see you go," kind of stuff.
- CVChris Voss
Ah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Had it been me, I would have been in a kind of a, an exchange of, oh, we ask for things, we give things. You know, it's kind of a neighborhood. I grew up in a neighborhood where you'd borrow eggs or milk from the neighbor. Remember those days?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, I don't know if people do that any longer. Um, but I think it falls well into what you're describing that, you know, when, when you just do things for people, um, out of goodness, then, you know, sure, you sort of have a, a, a history where you could return to that they owe you, but there's also just something good about just doing things out of goodness.
- CVChris Voss
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And also not asking for so much, um, and expecting people to provide that. So, uh, I love that and I actually, um, I love providing good reviews for things I like. You know, on the phone when, um, you know, the airline, w- that, we don't this any more, we book our own flights, but what, any time I get help on the phone and, you know, if it's really great help, I'll say, "H- how can I help?" And they'll say, "Oh, it would mean a lot to us if you would send an email to this, to my business just saying I did, I did a great job or something like that."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I actually really enjoy doing that. So, um, I love the points you're making because they're very actionable.
- 32:46 – 33:44
Sponsor: AG1
- AHAndrew Huberman
As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 daily since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that's designed to meet all of your foundational nutrition needs. Now, of course, I try to get enough servings of vitamins and minerals through whole food sources that include vegetables and fruits every day, but oftentimes, I simply can't get enough servings. But with AG1, I'm sure to get enough vitamins and minerals and the probiotics that I need and it also contains adaptogens to help buffer stress. Simply put, I always feel better when I take AG1. I have more focus and energy and I sleep better and it also happens to taste great. For all these reasons, whenever I'm asked, "If you could take just one supplement, what would it be," I answer, "AG1." If you'd like to try AG1, go to drinkag1.com/huberman to claim a special offer. They'll give you five free travel packs plus a year supply of vitamin D3K2. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman. Shifting
- 33:44 – 39:40
Hostile Negotiations, Internal Collaboration
- AHAndrew Huberman
slightly into the more, um, let's call them high friction, uh, negotiations-
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... or the types of negotiations where there is the potential for a truly bad outcome.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I know you've been asked this before, but some of our listeners are going to be learning about you for the first time. Do you recall of the many negotiations that you did while in the FBI any one particular negotiation that felt like, if this doesn't work out, this is really catastrophic? And would you be willing to share that with us?
- CVChris Voss
Well, um, I learned, you know, they try to teach us early on that not everything's gonna work out. And the second negotiation I had in the Philippines, uh, the first one, uh, uh, a young man named Jeff Schilling was grabbed by a terrorist group, uh, Abu Sayyaf and, um, he ended up walking away 'cause we sta- we stalled the bad guys long enough that we just, you know, sometimes if you can slow it down, you wait for something good to fall out of the sky. And it will. And that ended up happening in that case and the bad guy ends up calling the negotiator that I coached on the phone after it was over to basically tell him that they still had a good relationship. It was nuts. Um, why does the bad guy call the negotiator that is responsible for him losing everything and say, you know, "You did a good job?" Which is exactly what happened. So, we roll into a case, um, and I hadn't had anything go bad at that point in time. The very next case, the Burnham Sobral case, uh, by a different faction of the terrorist group, 13 months later ends up in, um, two of the three remaining hostages shot and killed by friendly fire. Uh, on, along the way, um, hostages had been executed, an American had been executed early on, and it was, it was a train wreck and lots of people got killed all along the way and just really ridiculous bad things happening. And that, that was bad all the way through. Um, so we learned, you know, learned a lot from it. Um, went back and checked everything we did and we didn't do anything wrong that we felt, based on our strategy, didn't, didn't miss anything and that was why I ended up going, uh, collaborating with the guys at Harvard because my reaction was if this, if we did everything we know how to do and it wasn't enough, that means we're not smart enough, we gotta get better. And so, that case taught me a lot about the dynamics that really happen on the other side and the difference between, you know, whether p- or not people are really on your side. The US government was not highly collaborative. Uh, the Philippine government was not highly collaborative.... that everybody wanted to get their pound of flesh out of the other, out of the other side. I mean, just everything bad that you can imagine. Early on when Guillermo Sobral, uh, was murdered by the Abu Sayyaf, it was a national holiday in the Philippines. And the bad guys had a history of killing people on national holidays. And we were in front of Philippines and we had no idea that that day was a national holiday. And we showed up at, uh, Philippine National Police headquarters in Manila, and it was closed. Now, we got an on- well, I got an ongoing hostage case with bad guys threatening to kill hostages, and we show up at the gates and the gates are closed. And we're like, "What the hell's going on here?" And, "Well, it's a national holiday. Nobody's working today." I'm like, "First of all, nobody told us that. Secondly, I don't think the bad guys really care that it's a national holiday and nobody's working." Our negotiator's nowhere to be found. We got- we got a- we got a guy there that, um, uh, the previous negotiator we worked with, Philippine National Police was not that happy that they didn't have him under complete control. So they give us a guy that will not tell us anything until after he's told them. So he's having conversations f- with the bad guys and we're actually hearing about them secondhand. He didn't show up that day. And then, and of course that day, the bad guys announced they're gonna kill, uh, kill a hostage, uh, and give it as a gift to the country of the Philippines 'cause it's a holiday. And then they go, "Oh, by the way, they like doing this on holidays." And w- so... And, and Guillermo Sobral ended up getting his head cut off with the, because of all the warring factions on our side of the table not telling each other what the hell's going on. So I had assumed at that point in time that people tell us the stuff we need to know, we didn't need to ask. And, and after that I got like, "Look, there ain't nothing here that I don't need to know." I don't... Y- if it's a holiday, it's coming up, then you assume I know. You, you gotta tell us. So really learned a lot about collaboration on our side of the table, and also the lack of collaboration on the other side of the table. Just 'cause we're a mess doesn't mean they got their act together, and the bad guys didn't have their act together. And ultimately, the hostages, one of the reasons some of them didn't come out because internally they, they had double crossed each other. So learned a lot about what really fundamental human nature dynamics are in teams, and your team has not got its act together and the other team does not either. So what can you do as a communicator to make up for that? Really learned a lot about that in that case. I had cases subsequent to that involving Al-Qaeda when Al-Qaeda was killing people on a regular basis. But we saw those coming and we did everything we could do to keep the train from smashing into us. You see a train coming down the tracks, you know it's coming down the tracks, and you do the best you can to derail it and sometimes you can't.
- 39:40 – 48:15
Patterns & Specificity; Internet Scams, “Double-Dip”
- CVChris Voss
- AHAndrew Huberman
I've heard it said that when people take somebody captive that they either want their money, their body, or their life, or some combination of those.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. It's, that's probably one of those three. Yeah, that's very true.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And as the negotiator trying to rescue the hostage, is it important to identify early on which of those three or which all of those three, um, they're after, like how serious they are? Are they willing to actually kill the hostage? Are they, um, you know, will they go for any amount of money above X number of dollars?
- CVChris Voss
Right, right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm trying to figure out their threshold, right? I mean, uh, because the person is on the other side is gambling, right? They're gambling their, their freedom, they're gambling their, um, reputation with whoever their reputation matters to. Um, i- is it important to get into the mindset of the person you're negotiating with quickly, um, using the hypothesis, uh, generating method?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, and if so, uh, could you give a, uh, an example of how that played out in, in your previous work?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. The, um, uh, the indicators are really there. I mean, o- once you sort of, uh, lose your illusions about how you things, how you think things should play out, then the patterns of behavior are generally pretty quick, uh, and clear. And just 'cause you don't like the patterns, like with Al-Qaeda, we recognize the patterns and knowing what they are doesn't mean you can change what they are. And Al-Qaeda in 2004's timeframe was very clear about killing people on deadline and we had to recognize that. So there, there, there becomes a pattern of behavior and, usually specificity in what they say. And this is, this is all, this is all human nature. Like if, if, if you're in a business negotiation and they say, "You know, we're gonna do something horrible here, you know, we're gonna walk out." You know, that's fairly nonspecific. And if they say, "Look, if we don't get this by this per- specific deadline, if we don't get these specific things met by this specific time," that's pretty specific. That's, it's specificity. You're looking for it. I learned to look for it in kidnapping negotiations. We're working a case, again, in the Philippines and the bad guys say, you know, "If, uh, if we don't get a ransom for the son," 17-year-old boy at the time he's kidnapped, you know, "you tell his father he's gonna lose an egg." And that's a eup- eup- euphemism for losing a child. And early on when that threat came through on our side of the table, everybody's like, "Oh my God, they're gonna kill him. You know, this is really bad. We gotta make sure the family can pay the ransom." I'm like, "No, no, no, no. It didn't, they didn't say when it was gonna happen. They didn't say how it was gonna happen. They didn't say who was gonna do it." You know, the basic specificity of who, what, when, and where. Like, they left themselves an out here, a very clear out. And we never said we were gonna do it. We never said when it was gonna happen. We never said which child. You know what? They're just trying to scare you. They're throwing out something vague. I said, "We got, we got plenty of time to play with this. We gotta, we gotta push this all the way through the process until the end."... now, later on in that case, when the family tried to deliver a ransom and it was screwed up by God knows who, the bad guys came up back on the phone and they said, "If we don't get paid tomorrow, your son dies." And I said, "All right, now that's specific, and these guys sound like they mean it. And so we're going to have to make sure this thing goes down tomorrow or that's the end of this kid." And at that point in time, we allowed the family, uh, uh, w- we weren't in a position to allow or disallow. We were in a position to offer thoughts, and our thoughts were they mean it now and you need to do something now or likely something bad's going to happen. And now that they're this serious, because you always got to worry about what we used to refer to as a double-dip. Do they take the money and then s- and they come back and say, "No, that was a down payment. That wasn't the ransom. That was just a down payment"? You got to make sure you don't get double-dipped if you let the family pay, and you got to give them your honest opinion as to whether or not they're going to let the hostage go if you pay now. And our, our thoughts were, "You pay them tomorrow, your son's coming out." And he did.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The double-dip is a scary thing to hear about. Um, at a much lower level, meaning more minor level, um, people sometimes get shaken down online, you know, like their password will get taken. There are people everywhere who go for the "click on this link." You know, you get a text message, you know, "We've identified that your c- account has, you know, been changed. Verify it." You click on the link, takes you some place where you put in your login and password and boom, it's gone.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then they try and sell it back to you, typically through cryptocurrency because it's not traceable.
- CVChris Voss
By the way-
- AHAndrew Huberman
If you're-
- CVChris Voss
... those, those negotiations can be a lot of fun if you let them.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) I, well, I'm hoping that our discussion about this now is going to save some people, uh, the trouble of having their, their accounts hacked. I've known people who've had their accounts hacked and these are some smart people. But what's interesting is that I've also observed those situations where somebody gets to the point where they just say, "You know, I'm just going to give them what they want." And I, I remember in this one particular instance saying, "No, no, no, do not give them the money because then they're just going to say they want more." There's no-
- CVChris Voss
Right, right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There's no guarantee that they're going to give you back what you want.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And why would they?
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
If you think about it, why would they? The money funnels in and, like, they just can pivot and go to the next thing. So how do you, um, gain confidence that you are likely to be double-dipped or not?
- CVChris Voss
Um, well, first of all, I got to find out if, you know, if they're in a position to carry out the threat or if they're in any sort of legitimate position to begin with. You know, for lack of a better term, it's proof of life. And there are a lot of people that are trying to scam you, but they don't really have the ability to scam you. So you got to find out, you know, do some confirmation. Do they, uh, do they have access to your account? Do they, do they have your data? They have your money. Do, do they have it in a position or are they just trying to make you believe that they have that position of i- influence on you? Um, there are a lot of, a lot of the bad guys out there that are just rolling a dice, dialing for dollars, if you will, and if they don't scam you when they have no leverage on you, they'll find somebody else that'll give in. So there's a bit of, you know, authenticity or, or do... Are they in a position to do it? And, um, the same rule applies in any negotiation. Um, the other side is going to give in when they feel like they've gotten everything they can. Kidnappers, I'd be asked by an ambassador, a- asked by an FBI commander, "When's this going to be over?" When the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they could. Not when they did, but when they felt like they did. So our job is just make them feel it sooner.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
So, you know, how, how hard do you make it innocently on the other side? Everybody, everybody wants to feel like they did a... They got a good day's pay for a good day's work. So if you let them feel like they're in charge and you make them work by asking them innocent how and what questions, which are very hard and fatiguing to answer, then you're going to get to the point where you're going to get a solid outcome where you don't get double-dipped and they're going to be happy that it's over because they felt like they got everything they could. It could be your data, could be your bank account, um, could be anything. The other side is going to be satisfied with the outcome when they feel like they've worked for it. And in, uh, business negotiations, you're selling your car and some... You put a price tag on your car and the guy walks up to you and says, "I'll give you full amount right now." What's your reaction? "I should have asked for more. Um, maybe I won't sell my car." You know, every human interaction, the other side wants to feel like that they earned what they got. And so the idea of empathy in hostage negotiations is really just to make them feel that sooner.
- 48:15 – 54:46
Urgency, Cons, Asking Questions
- CVChris Voss
- AHAndrew Huberman
We're going to come back to empathy because it's such a big and important topic, but I've heard it said before that if somebody you don't know, but maybe also somebody you know, places a real sense of urgency on, you know, "Need the money now," or, um, "I need you to do something right away or else," um, not a threat of physical violence, but that any request for, um, expediting something is a red flag.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That it's likely to be a scam. You know, very seldom-
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... "Do you need to click on the link within 24 hours?" Right? I mean, how could that possibly be, right?
- CVChris Voss
Right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But we... But that's one way in which people are exploited.
- CVChris Voss
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, that-... some request comes in by phone or by, you know, email or text or maybe even person. Somebody says, "You know, you need to do this right now or else something bad is going to happen." Capture people's sense of urgency-
- CVChris Voss
Right, right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... get them to make a mistake, and then they're, they're left reeling because that request for something right now or else I think hits a, a, a fundamental nerve in us-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... you know?
- CVChris Voss
They want to help, to be a rescuer.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right. So, um, is that a good rule of thumb for people to keep in mind? To, to not, uh-
- CVChris Voss
I think that's a great rule of thumb. I mean, I, I, a friend of mine, um, somebody got ahold of his phone number not that long ago, and, um, I got, I was getting texts from his number. So like, "Look, man, I got some real problems. Look, I, I need some money from you now." It was a friend, a friend's number. And I remember when I first saw it, actually the f- when I first saw it, I was really busy and I felt bad that I didn't get back to him that day. And then I didn't hear from him again, and so I thought, "Well, whatever it was, he worked it out." So a couple weeks later, I, I get the text again, "You got a real problem, you got to get back to me right now." So I'm, I'm, I decide, hmm, "If it's really my buddy, I am going to help him right now. I got to make sure it's really my buddy." And I said, "Hey, man, you know, uh, y- you didn't raise this at all last time I saw you in Vegas," because I'd seen him in Vegas recently. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I was busy, I couldn't bring it up." And so I'm thinking like, "All right, so there's no direct confirmation or denial." We had, we had breakfast together in Vegas. So then I shoot back, I said like, "And man, I got to tell you something. That was such a crazy night and I still owe you money from them. So, you know, that night when we were gambling, I, I still owe you money. I'm happy to help." Now, it wasn't a crazy night, it was breakfast, and I didn't owe him money. And his next response was like, "Yeah, don't worry about it, you know, you can make that up from, from, to me with this." So I'm like, "All right, cool." So now I start making stuff up and I said, you know, "And when we were with those strippers and that dog and the clown and the pony-
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- CVChris Voss
... I'll never get over that." And so now the guy's, "What are you talking about?" And I said, "By the way..." and then I started throwing in some stuff about his wife and his mother, (laughs) and the guy got insulted and called me names and stopped texting me. And then I, then I sent all those text messages to the real guy, including, you know, what I'd said about his mother, and he texted me back. He's got a great sense of humor. He says, "By the way, my mom does think you're attractive." (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) Oh man, I think-
- CVChris Voss
But I thought, I started it all by just checking the source.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- CVChris Voss
If it was my friend, I would have helped him immediately. And I need to throw something at him that's going to confirm that it's him and that I'm there for him, but I'm also going to have, put a little bit of a curve in there that if, that if he doesn't catch, I know it's, I know it's a con, and then I'm going to have fun with it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Incredible knowledge that, you know, people hear this and they might think, "Oh, you know, that's never going to happen to me," but like I said, I know family members and friends who they make the mistake, they take the bait of clicking on the link and then now they're getting the shakedown. Um, actually, a good friend of mine said that her parents called at some point. Her parents are probably in their late 70s now. Um, someone had called their house and told them that their child, this woman, had been, um, kidnapped-
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and that they needed to send money.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And that if they called the police, they'd kill her or harm her in some way.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So they started sending money and they were afraid to contact her. And you can see like what a bind a, a, a loving parent would be in, right? They obviously don't want to get this child of theirs hurt and they obviously are willing to do whatever it takes in order to get them back. Turns out it was a total scam-
- 54:46 – 1:01:09
Negotiations, Fair Questions, Exhausting Adversaries
- AHAndrew Huberman
- CVChris Voss
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? This is a... Actually, a lawyer friend of mine recently described their job very well. He said, in his words, first person, he said, "I scare people for money."
- CVChris Voss
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) The operative word being scare people.
- CVChris Voss
That's being, and that's being honest.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, he's being very honest. He scares people for money and he's very good at it. And, um, and he understands how other people scare people for money and he works both sides, you know, and, uh...... plaintiff or defense-type situations. But, you know, it made me realize that, you know, a lot of the legal profession is not, okay, the lawsuit slid across the table. It's the, okay, here's what the lawsuit would look like. Here are all the statutes that potentially were, were violated. And then there's a probe of, like, what somebody's finances are and, you know, how much they're willing to pay and do they have liability insurance, do they have an umbrella policy?
- CVChris Voss
Right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
All the sorts of things that are, that are really ... It's not necessarily an illegal shakedown, but it's, you know, a probing as to whether or not, you know, th- there's ... it's worth the effort.
- CVChris Voss
Diagnosing the other side's ability to pay.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, right. And so that happens really often. I can give a specific example where, um, somebody had a incident at a dog park, where their dog, um, allegedly ran into somebody, maybe charged at somebody. You know, dog park, people are standing around, and the person moved and, and, and apparently injured their knee. But rather than sue the owner of the dog, what they typically do is deliver some set of documents that say, you know, "I was, uh, injured. Your dog was responsible for this. Um, and if you don't settle up for X number of dollars, you're going to be sued for usually an exorbitant amount above that."
- CVChris Voss
Right, right, right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then there's this question that the, the lawyers have to figure out, like, is it puffery, right?
- CVChris Voss
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Are they saying, "Oh, I'm going to sue you for $4 million." Is there any basis for that? And good lawyers will say, "No, that's puffery. They're, they're trying to scare you with a big number." But a lot of people see that number and go, "Oh, my goodness."
- CVChris Voss
Yep.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"What do they want? You know what? Like, I don't even know if they were injured. If they were, that's terrible. I'd want that taken care of. If my dog's responsible, I'd want that taken care of. But what do, what do they need in order to make this, this go away?"
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And that happens millions of times a day (laughs) throughout the country, and a good portion of those probably happen here in California because there's a ... that's kind of the way the legal system is arranged.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So thi- this is not somebody, um, you know ... It could be somebody manipulating the law. It could also be somebody who's being entirely honest about their experience of being injured by somebody else's dog. So under those conditions, I mean, it sounds like the same set of rules apply.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You want to know how serious they are. Do they have a case, so to speak? That's the, the work of the lawyers. But in assessing how serious somebody is, you said s- ... y- it's fair. You called it the F word. I like that. I'll never forget that. Uh, just ask a fair question like, like, "How much money do you think you deserve?" Or, um, is that ... would that be a good example of a very direct question? Uh, or is it, um, how likely are you to walk away if we don't give you the money? Like, you know, is there ... I mean, 'cause I could imagine there's all sorts of reasons why people would be dishonest about, about answering those questions.
- CVChris Voss
Well, and then, uh, "How much money you think you could deserve," uh, "you deserve," is, is a really good question, not necessarily what the answer is but how they answer it. Like, you're, you're, you're going to get how quickly they fire back and whether or not they stop and think about it. How and what questions typically are best to judge the other side's reaction and the answer is secondary, 'cause the how or what question causes what we would refer to as, uh, deep thinking, slow thinking, Danny Kahneman, behavioral economics, thinking fast and slow. Slow thinking is in-depth thinking. You ask a how or what question to make the other side think first and judge their reaction to how they think about it, and do they actually, do they actually think about it? Or do they fire right back at ya? That gives you a, a clearer picture of who you're dealing with, where the outcome is going to go. "How much money do you think that you deserve if they immediate ... you know, $10 million?" All right, so this is I got a shakedown artist on the other side. Or they say, "All right." If they stop and think about it and they give you a thoughtful answer, that's a completely different person on the other side. You're asking a question to get a ... to diagnose how they respond first. The answer is second. And sometimes I ... if it's a cutthroat on the other side, I'm going to start peppering them with how and what questions just to wear 'em out. That's passive aggression. If I, if I got a cutthroat aggressor on the other side, I'm going to drop into passive-aggressive behavior to slow 'em down and wear 'em out. Um, one of my hostage negotiation heroes, a guy named Johnny Pico, was John Domenico Pico, not, not Johnny like Johnny Rockets. Uh, Italian Johnny, John Domenico. Got all the, uh, western hostages out of Beirut in the mid '80s. Wrote a book called Man Without a Gun. Uh, w- negotiated in person face-to-face with Hezbollah. The only guy that ever did that. Got everybody out. And i- in his book, he wrote one of the great secrets to negotiation is learning how to exhaust the other side. And when you've got a really dangerous adversary on the other side of the table, you don't go nose to nose. You don't argue. You don't ... you're not combative. You wear 'em out. Exhaust 'em. And if you got somebody really combative or cutthroat on the other side, start peppering 'em with how and what questions, 'cause to even think about the answer tires them out. And it's passive-aggressive, and it's deferential, and it really works.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So if the person on the opposite side of a high-friction negotiation is aggressive, the goal is to slow things down, fatigue them-
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and get them to just either relent or to reveal something that's- that's a loophole.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is that right?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. If, if I have to make the deal-
- 1:01:09 – 1:02:18
Sponsor: InsideTracker
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 1:02:18 – 1:07:47
“Vision Drives Decision”, Human Nature & Investigation
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm interested in drilling a little bit further into this process of wearing them down and the passive-aggressive way of, uh, reducing the aggressor's stance. And I, I want to highlight for people that, you know, what we're talking about here isn't, you know, manipulation to extract something. We're actually talking about the reverse. We're talking about a bad actor who's aggressive-
- CVChris Voss
Right, right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and trying to, um, defang that bad actor.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
What does that process of, of wearing them down look like or sound like? Could you give us a couple of examples of, let's say I'm the bad actor. We could play this game. I won't be very good at this. Um, and I am saying, "Look, I want X number of dollars by, eh, this date, or you're not going to get what you want." They're going to die or disappear. It's that simple. And, um, you know, a stonewall kind of approach. What is the approach that you take to wear that person down?
- CVChris Voss
Well, what, what are, they're going to be how and... questions that are mostly how and what, and they're going to be legitimate questions, which is, how do I know you're going to follow through? What does that look like? Like, if I do what you want, how do I know you're going to follow through?
- AHAndrew Huberman
So get them to talk about the alternative. Okay, so if you were to, "Well, if you deliver by that date, I'm going to pass them to you without fail." Like, if they're just getting kind of brief answers where the person is just, again, this kind of, like, rigid stonewall approach.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, well, and so there's a phrase that we use all the time, vision drives deci- decision. So if, if you're really going to comply... if I, if I give in, and when I said, "How do I know you're going to, you're going to follow through?" I'm not talking about the threat. I'm not trying to get you to clarify the threat. I'm trying to get you to clarify what implementation looks like. So I need to know, um, based on your reaction to that, if you plan on following through if I comply, you will already have that in your head or be open to it. Vision drives decision. You've thought it through in advance. What does letting the hostages go look like? If you do- if you have no intention of ever release- releasing a hostage, if I follow through, then you're not going to be able to answer the question, or/and you're probably going to throw it back on me really quickly. And so then now I'm, I know, like, all right, so you got no plans on complying. If I give in, you're not going to comply. So I... but you still want the money. Then I'm going to ask, "Well, how am I supposed to pay you if you don't have any plans for complying?" And if you're willing to entertain a conversation about what compliance looks like, there was a kidnapping that, uh, my unit worked just before I was in it in Venezuela, where they weren't entirely sure that the bad guys were gonna... the FARC, I think, had, had the hostage. They agreed on an exchange point to let the hostage go that was some distance from where they had a pretty good idea the hostage was, was being held. So they figured they're not going to drag the hostage all the way to this river crossing if they're not going to let him go. It's just too much effort. And then it, it was one of the few times there was going to be a simul- theoretically a simultaneous exchange, but they're going to have to send the money across the river before the hostage was let go. So if we agree to this, all right, so they're not going to drag this, this guy all the way to this river crossing if they don't plan on letting him go, and if it's a long way to drag him and they got their money, do they want to drag him back? Like, even if they're ambivalent, once they get there, if they've gone through all the effort to get to the meeting location and the hostage is there, we've now just increased the chances significantly they're going to go ahead and comply 'cause it's a pain in the neck to take them back. This is all human nature stuff, human nature investment. How do you get them to engage in actions and behaviors and then verbal commitments that actually mean something to them? When I was working kidnappings, the very last thing we'd always have the family get the bad guys to say it, last, not first, but last, was that we'd actually get a verbal promise to let them go, again, at the end, because we've been talking to them long enough at this point in time, we got a pretty good idea of what they sound like when they're lying and what they sound like when they telling the truth. If somebody tells the truth, they pretty much tend to tell the truth the same way every time, if they tell the truth. You talk to somebody long enough, you got a line on, do they ever tell the truth?...and if they do, what does it sound like? People lie 20 ways. They tell the truth one way. So we've been coached in negotiations with the kidnappers long enough that we know what they sound like when they tell the truth. So wh- when they ask at the very end, "If we, uh, if we paid, do you promise to let him go?" it's not that they answer, but how they answered it. And that, that'll be the last thing to seal the deal. You know, how do you continually stack the odds in your favor for implementation?
- 1:07:47 – 1:15:42
Lying & Body, “Gut Sense”
- CVChris Voss
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you have a bodily, like a somatic sensor for lying? Uh, the reason I ask is, years ago, I had the experience of, um, knowing somebody, and, uh, they turned out to be a generally good person, but I sensed early on that something was, like, off. I couldn't relax around them.
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I just couldn't relax around them. And, and I could not tell you why, but it was as if my... I couldn't even identify the neuroanatomy of it. You know, I might say, "It was the vagus nerve or something," but I teach neuroanatomy and I can't point to one pathway in the body. There was something about my autonomic response that would just start cranking up when I was around them, like, "Something is off, something is off, something is off."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I, and I kid you not, five years later, five years later, I discovered a series of lies that all ratcheted together that were actually pretty meaningless in the total context of things. But I remember thinking at that moment, "Oh my goodness," like, "my, my system knew." Uh, like, knew. And, you know, for all my knowledge of neuroscience, I, I can't tell you to this day, like, what it was in, in the, in my biology, but it had something to do with my bodily response. It wasn't just a thought, like, "That doesn't quite add up," or, "I feel like I'm getting the runaround," or, or this. It was, it was a physical sensation. Are you familiar with that experience?
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. Well, it's, uh, a little bit, uh, what you guys and your colleagues are still discovering, the science behind the gut. And what we are actually teaching, you know, my company now, we're teaching people, learn the difference between your gut and your amygdala, for lack of a better term, your fear centers. And know which one is which and listen to your gut. Your gut is ridiculously accurate. Now, where d- where does that information come from? W- one of your podcasts recently I was listening to, w- we were talking about olfactory c- cues, right? The smells. Like, I never thought of that. Of course. You know, yeah, the, the, the, um, uh, what was the term for the, um, the, the molecules that you're putting off, that, that...
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, pheromones.
- CVChris Voss
Oh, pheromones. What are the, what are the pheromones-
- AHAndrew Huberman
We have powerful molecules.
- CVChris Voss
...that are gonna get kicked out? Like, of course, and that's why some of the great investigators I knew would say, "I can just smell it. I can smell it." So what all is feeding your gut, and what, what are the senses that the science hasn't yet discovered? You know, you can't, you can't make me believe, I'll, I will never believe that the life force stops at the surface of our skin, that there's energy and that we can pick up on the energy. I mean, our gut is being fed by all these different inputs that we're aware of or that we have yet to be made aware of. The tone of voice doesn't match their w- their words. The, the, the head tilt. You've got a supercomputer in your brain. Your gut is incredible, if you listen to it instead of your fear centers. And as soon as you start listening to your gut, you can't explain it at the time, but you got a, you got a bad feeling in your gut. And later on, then you saw it all, it all came together, where your brain was picking up these cues. Your, your brain was probably, when you're in their presence, there's got to be an odor somebody gives off when they're, when they're intentionally deceiving. You don't, you didn't know that that, that was a smell. And maybe you, you couldn't have consciously smelled it, but you're still picking it up. So, long answer to... I'm a very big believer in, in the gut. I think there's science that we know and yet to discover that tells us that the gut is just ridiculously accurate if we listen to it instead of our fear centers.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I completely agree that there are, um, energetic exchanges that neuroscience can't yet explain. The field of neuroscience, that is, is starting to explore some of these things. Um, there's basically, uh, three apex journals, th- the most competitive journals to publish in, Science, Nature, and Cell. And, um, I only mention that because there was a series of articles written in Science magazine about magnetoreception in humans. You know, the idea that humans can detect magnetic fields sounds like quackery, right? Turtles can detect magnetic fields. They migrate by them, actually, long distances. But the idea is that humans can't do that. And yet, there are some well-controlled studies where people have to guess about the orientation of a magnetic field, and they do it better than chance. Not everyone can do it, but some can do it better than chance-
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...in a way that cannot be predicted by anything else except some inherent form of magnetoreception in their nervous system. So there are capabilities of the nervous system that are starting to be revealed for which, uh, we don't have a lot of evidence, but there's enough evidence to suggest that these things are really happening. Um, the other example, which you might find interesting, is a little bit m- uh, more, a little less esoteric. But there was a beautiful paper published in one of the Cell Press journals, uh, a couple of years ago showing that when people listen to the same story, the distance between their heartbeats tends to be very similar. Now, it doesn't mean that their exact heart rates are similar. But if you look at the distance between their heartbeats, they all entrain to the same rhythm, the same song. And get this, they're in completely separate rooms. These experiments are being done on completely separate days. And yet, if I were to line up just, you know, the, the distance between the, the heartbeats for you, they would line up like a set of columns-
- CVChris Voss
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
...for...... dozens of individuals listening to the same story. So, you know, clearly there's a passage of energy from things we hear...
- CVChris Voss
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... and things we see that goes into our nervous system at a level that's below our conscious detection. Here's the last thing I'll say about this. Um, we have a series on mental health coming out, not mental illness, but mental health, um, by, uh, I think to be among the very finest psychiatrists in the world, a Dr. Paul Conti. And he said, "You know, we all think that the forebrain is the supercomputer."
- CVChris Voss
Right.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He said, "No. The subconscious is the supercomputer."
- CVChris Voss
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That's where the real knowledge processing is happening. That's the iceberg below the surface, where all the real heavy lifting is taking place. And that people who learn to tap into the subconscious can learn to use that information in very meaningful ways. And I think that's what, what you're describing.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah. He's been on with you before, right?
- AHAndrew Huberman
He has, to talk about trauma in particular, and he was on Lex Fridman's podcast as well. The series that we're doing with him is not about trauma per se. It's really about the subconscious and the self. I, I think you'll find the series really interesting.
- CVChris Voss
Oh, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it has a number of very practical questions that one can ask themselves about their subconscious and, and kind of work the process of psychiatry. We're excited to release that series. But it, um... 'cause I don't know of anything like it that's been put out there into the public. But, but I was so, um, pleasantly surprised to hear him say, you know, we all hear that the, the forebrain is the supercomputer. It's what drove our evolution. And he's like, "No, no, no, no. It's the, it's the subconscious." That's where our real wisdom resides. And the forebrain is just the implementation device. So it's, uh, you know, uh ?
- CVChris Voss
How we con- convince ourselves that, that we're in charge, right? (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, I mean, I can't think of a time that my gut told me A and it turned out to be B.
- CVChris Voss
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
More often than not, though, I've suppressed my response to the gut.
- 1:15:42 – 1:20:39
Face-to-Face Negotiation, “738” & Affective Cues
- CVChris Voss
- AHAndrew Huberman
So when you're doing negotiations and you're hearing somebody's voice on the phone, there are a lot of cues. When you're face to face, there are additional cues. There's their face. And then, of course, if the negotiations are being done by text, over a computer or a phone, it's a very diminished environment for information. So maybe we could talk about each of those, because we live in those landscapes. If we're face to face and we're negotiating, um, you're listening, of course, to what I want, what I'm insisting on. You're working that process from your, your side. Uh, what are you paying attention to visually?
- CVChris Voss
It's more, um, are things in alignment? There's layman's data. You know, the words, the way it's said, and the look on people's face, and how are they weighed and how they play out. There's a ratio out there that, very unscientific, 70-38-55, 70% words, 38% delivery, 55% body language. People want to argue about it all the time, whether or not that's accurate. As a rule of thumb, we throw that out there, but I tell people the most important issue is, do they line up? So, I'm not going to look for, like, when do you raise your eyebrow or when do you look up and to the left? I'm really just going to try to get a gut feeling whether or not I think these things are lining up, whether they're in alignment or whether they're out of line. And then I'm going to be real careful about what meaning I assign to that. You know, uh, affective cues, changes in your tone of voice, changes in your movement. Uh, and that's one of the reasons why we don't teach reading people's body language, because it's completely contextual to you and the moment. So I, if I convince myself that, you know, a raise of the eyebrow means this, it's out of context. I was in a negotiation once where I threw out a, a figure to somebody and I saw them kind of look off to the side and look back, and accepted my offer. And I m- made the mistake of not saying to them, the appropriate thing for me to say at the time would have been, "Seems like something just crossed your mind." 'Cause the only completely true observation, if they look to the side and look back, something crossed their mind. Now, I read it at the moment of saying that they had more money, and I found out after the fact that was wrong. They were stretched to the limit. The look of hesitation didn't mean that they were holding stu- they were holding stuff back, but I read it wrong, and I didn't bother to check on the affective cue that I saw. So, what am I babbling about? What I'm babbling about is, if we're in a negotiation, and whether or not I'm listening to your tone of voice or watching your body language or your words, if I see you shift at all, I should pay attention that there was a shift in your affective behavior but I need to find out what was behind it, as opposed to making an assumption as to what it meant. So yeah, I'm going to watch and I'm going to get my gut feeling and I'm going to say, "Sounds like there's some hesitation," or, "It looks like something just crossed your mind." Or even if I can't attribute it to a specific affective move, I might say......it feels like there's something in the way here. That's me listening to my gut. I'll throw out an observation on whatever any of those might be, just to go back over the ground a little bit and double-check. Because the other thing about negotiating in person is you're going to give me more information physically than I can actually process. And if you say something that's thought-provoking, I'll stop and think about it. And while I'm stopping and thinking about what you just said, I'm missing all your cues. So, all those skills that we teach, the labels, the mirrors, the open-ended questions, which seem like we're going back and plowing the ground again, we are because I didn't pick up all the information the first time. There's just more there than I can get. And so I need to go back over it a couple of times with you, just so I get it right without making you feel interrogated. You actually feel heard, and you actually get to go back over it again. So, it becomes what seems to be an inefficient process, but it's actually me just double-checking my information. So if we're face-to-face, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you to repeat, but I'm not going to say, "Would you please repeat that?" I'm going to get you to repeat without asking you to repeat.
Episode duration: 2:53:28
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