Huberman LabProtocols to Access Creative Energy and Process | Rick Rubin
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,206 words- 0:00 – 2:00
Rick Rubin
- AHAndrew Huberman
(Upbeat music) Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin is a world-renowned music producer, having worked with an enormous number of incredible artists, producing, for instance, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys, Jay-Z, Johnny Cash, Adele, Lady Gaga, Tom Petty, and of course, Slayer. This last year, Rick also authored his first book, which is a truly incredible exploration into the creative process. His book is entitled The Creative Act: A Way Of Being. Rick has appeared once before on the Huberman Lab Podcast, and during that appearance, he offered to answer listeners' and viewers' questions. Those questions were put in the comment section on YouTube, and we received thousands of them. So today, Rick answers your questions about the creative process. I also took note of the feedback that when Rick previously appeared on the Huberman Lab Podcast, that perhaps I spoke a bit more than the audience would have preferred. So today, I refrain from speaking too much and try and give as much airtime as possible to Rick in order to directly answer your questions. You'll notice that today's discussion gets really into the practical aspects of the creative process. The most frequent questions that I received for Rick were ones in which people really wanted to understand what his specific process is each and every day as well as when he's producing music or other forms of art. And of course, people wanted to know what they should do specifically, from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep, even whether or not they should take note of their dreams, et cetera. We get into all of that. So today's discussion is very different from the one I held with Rick previously, and at least to my knowledge, from any of the other interviews or discussions that Rick has had publicly.
- 2:00 – 6:27
Sponsors: Maui Nui, Eight Sleep & Waking Up
- AHAndrew Huberman
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient-dense and delicious red meat available. I've spoken before on this podcast, and there's general consensus that most people should strive to consume approximately one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Now, when one strives to do that, it's important to maximize the quality of that protein intake to the calorie ratio, because you don't want to consume an excess of calories when trying to get that one gram of protein per pound of body weight. Maui Nui Venison has an extremely high-quality protein-to-calorie ratio, so it makes getting that one gram of protein per pound of body weight extremely easy. It's also delicious. Personally, I like the ground venison. I also like the venison steaks. And then for convenience, when I'm on the road, I like the jerky. The jerky is a very high protein-to-calorie ratio, so it has as much as 10 grams of protein per jerky stick, and it has something like only like 55 calories. So again, making it very easy to get enough protein without consuming excess calories. If you would like to try Maui Nui Venison, you can go to mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off your first order. Again, that's mauinuivenison.com/huberman to get 20% off. Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. I've spoken many times before on this podcast about the fact that sleep is the foundation of mental health, physical health, and performance. Now, a key component of getting a great night's sleep is that in order to fall and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees, and in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees. One of the best ways to make sure that those temperature changes occur at the appropriate times, at the beginning and throughout and at the end of your night when you wake up, is to control the temperature of your sleeping environment. And that's what Eight Sleep allows you to do. It allows you to program the temperature of your mattress and sleeping environment such that you fall and stay deeply asleep easily and wake up each morning feeling incredibly refreshed and energized. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for almost three years now, and it has dramatically improved the quality of my sleep, so much so that when I travel and I'm at a hotel or an Airbnb and I don't have access to my Eight Sleep, I very much look forward to getting home because my sleep is always better when I sleep on my Eight Sleep mattress cover. If you'd like to try Eight Sleep, you can go to eightsleep.com/huberman to get $150 off their Pod 3 mattress cover. Eight Sleep currently ships in the USA, Canada, UK, select countries in the EU, and Australia. Again, that's eightsleep.com/huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up. Waking Up is a meditation app that offers hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness training, and yoga nidra, which is sometimes referred to as NSDR. I'm a longtime fan of meditation. I started meditating when I was back in my teens, and I started doing a daily 10 or 20-minute meditation. And I kept that up for a number of years, but then it became more sporadic, and then eventually I stopped, and then I'd start again, and then I'd stop. What I found with the Waking Up app is that it makes it very easy to take on a meditation practice and to do meditation, if not every day, very close to every day. And that, we know, based on a lot of research, has an outsized positive effect on everything from stress regulation to sleep. You come up with better ideas, so indeed, meditation can make you more creative, more focused, and on and on. And then about 10 years ago, I got introduced to yoga nidra or NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, which is a practice of laying completely still while keeping the mind very active. So you're relaxing but keeping your mind active. And I use NSDR essentially every single day. I'll do it anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes, and I find it to be incredibly restorative. It really resets my ability to think and to engage in physical activity. And with Waking Up, I can select different lengths of meditations, different lengths of yoga nidras or NSDRs so that I keep up my practice. If you'd like to try Waking Up, you can go to wakingup.com/huberman to try a completely free 30-day trial. Again, that's wakingup.com/huberman to try a free 30-day trial.And now for my discussion about protocols for creativity
- 6:27 – 9:32
Tool: Coherence Breathing, Heart Rate Variability
- AHAndrew Huberman
with Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin, welcome back.
- RRRick Rubin
Thank you, sir. Happy to be here.
- AHAndrew Huberman
We're gonna answer... or rather, you are going to answer (laughs) the questions of the listeners of our previous podcast episode. Before we do that, however, when we were out in the lobby, you mentioned that you have a breathing exercise, a coherence breathing exercise that you thought might be useful for us to do now and perhaps for some of the listeners to join in.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah, let's do it, and then if you wanna talk about it after, we can.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Hmm, sounds good.
- RRRick Rubin
The reason I started doing this is I have relatively low heart rate variability, and s- you wanna have a higher one.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
Um, so I looked at all the things that can raise your heart rate variability, and I started doing this breathing technique specifically for heart rate variability, and it went up.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Awesome.
- RRRick Rubin
So it's-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Great.
- RRRick Rubin
... tested.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Great.
- RRRick Rubin
Let's do it together here. Play it. It'll say, "Take a deep breath," and then when... you'll hear the sound of a... if you follow me for the first inhale and exhale, you'll know what sound means what.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay. And you do this eyes closed typically?
- RRRick Rubin
I do it eyes closed, yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay, we will close our eyes. Please close his eyes. Thank you. (bell chimes)
- RRRick Rubin
(breathes deeply) (exhales deeply) (breathes deeply) That was five minutes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I like that.
- RRRick Rubin
Feels nice, doesn't it?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. I notice I... d- don't spontaneously breathe at that cadence.
- RRRick Rubin
No.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I breathe quite a bit faster.
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, especially on the exhale.
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So once I got into a rhythm of it, yeah, the mind just goes pseudo-random for me. What about for you? Does your mind tend to go one place?
- RRRick Rubin
I do... now I count. Um, so the reason I knew it was five minutes is because it's six breaths per minute, and I counted five... one, one, one, two, one, three, one, four, one, five, one, six, two, one. So I was occupied with a task.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How often do you do that?
- RRRick Rubin
At least once and sometimes twice a day. I aim for 10 minutes a day, but if I get to 20 minutes a day, it, it's, uh, noticeable in my heart rate variability results.
- 9:32 – 11:45
Treading Water, Podcasts
- RRRick Rubin
there was... I had a window of a very specific thing that I was doing. I would do coherent breathing, and I would do squats, just air squats-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
... and, um, in one location where I didn't have any other equipment. And, uh, and then I found a way, like, where I was doing treading water, which you got to experience with me. I would tread water, and then after treading water, I would get out of the pool, sit in the sun, and do the coherent breathing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Great. Yeah, we should probably mention what, uh, the treading water was about because people will wonder. Um, very briefly, I went and visited Rick overseas this summer, and we spent a fair amount of the daytime, um, treading water while listening to podcasts from a speaker on the side of the pool, and it was awesome. Um, time together as friends is awesome. Time in the sun is awesome. Learning from podcasts and listening and being entertained by podcasts is awesome. And then treading water is awesome. You're much better at treading water than I am. I was fatiguing.
- RRRick Rubin
It's just... as, as I said when we were doing it, it's, it's, um, it's like doing stairs. If you practice doing stairs, it gets easier to do stairs. But nobody's good at doing... you know, marathon runners can't run up the stairs. It's a... you know, it's a particular thing. And treading water, if you just do it, even in the little bit of time that we were doing it every day, by the end of your stay, it was easier for you than when you started.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Definitely.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah, it... you acclimate quickly.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Yeah, I was able to adapt. I was impressed at your endurance in treading water early on. By the way, I've continued the treading water practice-
- RRRick Rubin
Oh, great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... because I'm fortunate to have a pool in my new place.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Um, I listen to your podcast, truly.
- RRRick Rubin
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Tetragrammaton. Love it. Uh, love, love, love it. Uh, I listened to a few other podcasts, and I've started listening to more episodes of the podcast that you introduced me to, which was-
- RRRick Rubin
History of Rock Music in 500 Songs.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Andrew Hickey's podcast.
- RRRick Rubin
It's an English podcast.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- RRRick Rubin
Great podcast. Real in-depth information about music.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Yeah, that was such a great trip. Thanks for having me over there.
- RRRick Rubin
Thanks for coming, man.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Loved-
- RRRick Rubin
It was fun treading water.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was. Loved the time with you and your family. So I'm gonna... I'll invite myself again. (laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
You're always welcome.
- 11:45 – 15:43
Tool: Meditation Practices
- RRRick Rubin
- AHAndrew Huberman
On the topic of meditation, uh, one of the questions in this list of questions... we'll talk about the list itself in a moment, um, was about this anecdote that you've told me and you've mentioned a few other places apparently, that you've once meditated all the way from... was it San Francisco to New York or Los Angeles, uh, to New York flight?
- RRRick Rubin
It was either LA to New York or New York to LA. I can't remember. And I may have done it more than once.
- AHAndrew Huberman
The question specifically was which meditation did you do?
- RRRick Rubin
TM. TM was the first meditation I learned, transcendental meditation. Learned when I was 14. It's, uh, it's pretty much a default, uh, setting for me. Now, sometimes it'll evolve from......TM into breathing. Like, I might start by doing breathing before the TM piece starts, and I, and the breathing may just take the whole time. Or it may turn from breathing into a gratitude practice, or a metta practice, which is, uh, four phrases. "May I be filled with love and kindness." "May I be well." "May I be peaceful and at ease." "May I be happy." And you repeat those phrases over and over. And it starts, "May I," and then eventually, if you've done it for a year or so, you could start saying, "May we," for your s- for your f- immediate family. And then may, and then as you build up the charge for your immediate family, e- in another year or so, you can spread it to your community. And eventually after maybe five years, you can do it for the planet.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So that's the metta?
- RRRick Rubin
Metta. M-E-T-T-A.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Amazing.
- RRRick Rubin
Love and kindness practice.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And are there any particular links maybe you could pass us later and we could put-
- RRRick Rubin
I'll find one.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in the captions? Maybe one that you've used?
- RRRick Rubin
I, I learned it from Jack Kornfield, who's a Buddhist scholar and a, a brilliant teacher.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Terrific. Uh, what do you think meditation has allowed you, uh, afforded you, as well as what it's helped you avoid in terms of a daily practice? Or, um, maybe even just how doing it once in a while has wicked out into areas of your life. This is probably a long list of things, but if you were to pick maybe, like, the top three where you go, "Yeah, when I'm meditating regularly, blank happens and blank doesn't happen. And when I'm not, those things disappear."
- RRRick Rubin
Because I've been doing it for such a long time, it's so, um, part and parcel of who I am that without... I don't know who I would be without it. That said, I don't always do it. But I don't hav- at this point, I don't have to always do it to be in this zone where I've been, you know, for almost f- f- you know, 45 years, it's been a big part of my life. So a great deal of the benefits have, are, are in me now. When I practice, it gets amplified, but, um, as Maharishi described it, every time you meditate is like making a deposit in a bank. So it's always there. Every time you do it, it's b- you're building a base. And the goal of the practice is less about the practice. It's about, the practice is to change the way you are in the world. So it's a practice for life. Do you, do you know what I'm saying? Like, the, the changes that come in the meditation are to help your reactions in the real world.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In some ways, not to trivialize it, but it's like physical exercise. You know, during a good workout, your blood pressure is really elevated. You're secreting all sorts of inflammatory cytokines. You know, if we were to draw your blood mid-workout, uh, you'd say, "This person is in trouble."
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But then all these wonderful adaptations occur that allow you to sleep better, better mood, walk up stairs easily, and on
- 15:43 – 20:00
Sunlight, Skin, Circadian Rhythm
- AHAndrew Huberman
and on.
- RRRick Rubin
It's funny about sleeping better. This morning, I was walking on the beach, and, um, had my headphones on, wired headphones, and I was listening to a podcast. I can't remember what I was listening to, but I was listening to a podcast, and someone flagged me and interrupted me, who I didn't know, and I went over to talk to him, and he said, "I heard you talking about Steve Martin on a podcast." And, uh, and he told me a story about Steve Martin, that he got to see him in 1979. I would say this person was probably mid s- mid to late 60s. And he was wearing all black. He was wearing shoes on the beach, uh, tennis shoes. He was wearing dark sunglasses and a hat. And, um, he said, uh, just wanted to talk about comedy and things that he heard me say on a podcast, and we talked about it for a while. And then he said something about l- he loves podcasts and he listens to them at night 'cause he's got terrible insomnia and he can't sleep. And I'm looking at a guy in the sun wearing sunglasses, and I said, "Well, you know, the reason you can't sleep is because you're wearing sunglasses now." He said, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Well, the way the, the human body works is we react to the sun. The sun is what tells us we're awake, and then at night when it's dark, that's what tells us to go to sleep. So you're mixing the signals to your body by wearing the sunglasses." And he said, "Well, well, I'm a dermatologist, and you know, I've been a derm-" H- he said he was a derm- dermatologist for the last 40 years. "And my whole practice is about getting people to get out of the sun." And, and I s- I s- we started talking about it. (laughs) And, uh, he, he was all covered up. I was wearing, um, my, my board shorts and nothing else, and, and I said, "Well, I'm in the sun, you know, hours every day." And, and I, and he's like, "Aren't you worried about, uh, cancer?" And I said, "N- I, I feel pretty healthy. I feel okay." And then he said, "Let me see your back." And I turned around, and he looked at my back, and he's like, "You have perfect skin." He's like, "They should study you in a, in a, uh, in an institute." I said, "This is what normal s- this is what normal, healthy skin looks like if you expose it to the sun." And he said, "So you're saying everything I've been t- teaching in my, in my, uh, medical practice for the last 40 years was wrong?" I said, "Yes. Everything." It was funny, funny conversation.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, we could go down a deep rabbit hole with this, but you know, listeners of this podcast will know that I'm, you know, very much a proponent of getting those sunlight signals to the eyes at least once a day in the morning, but also in the, in the evening. This, uh, s- I'll just share with you, um ... Now, I learned from a, a guest whose episode we haven't, um, aired yet, but the, the...What is so special about that morning and evening sunlight are the contrasts between blues and oranges, blues and reds, blues and pinks, that we can't always see if there's cloud cover, but they come through. And it's the mathematical difference in their presence, the subtraction of a lot of blue and then next to it a lot of orange, or a lot of blue and then next to it a lot of pink, that triggers the body's understanding that this is morning and evening, and that night is coming in the evening and that it's time to be awake in, in the morning and throughout the day. In the middle of the day when the sun is out and it's overhead, it looks like white light, and white light includes the blues and the oranges and the pinks and the reds, but they, they subtract to zero, because they're all mixed together. That's why it looks just blue and white. And so while bright light is great throughout the day, it's those morning signals. Now, the, I think the dermatology community is starting to come online with the idea that l- low solar angle sunlight, early and later in the day, sunrise and, sun rising and sun setting, and I say that because people always go, "Oh, do you have to see it cross the horizon?" That would be ideal, but rising and setting do not create the kind of skin damage or eye damage that they've been so concerned about. And I think the next step for the field of dermatology is going to be to start communicating with the neuroscientists and the circadian biologists and, and really, uh, learning that. So, thanks for bridging that gap on the beach this morning.
- RRRick Rubin
You're welcome.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I do, I do think that's how it starts and then it wicks out. Headphones.
- 20:00 – 24:31
Headphones, Natural Living, Diet
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, um, I made the choice a few years ago to stop using the Bluetooth headphones-
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... based on ex- my personal experience, which was I kept getting these cysts behind my ears, which I was told were lymph, swellings of lymph. They would actually drain lymph if they got big enough. It was just really gross and kind of troubling. I stopped using them. I didn't get them. I started using them again, I started getting those l- lymph things. And, and there was some significant heat effects as well, um, and I've interviewed a couple people, including a neurosurgeon, on the podcast about, um, the level of EMFs that come from them, and they were not concerned. Others I've spoken to are concerned. I'm gonna try and balance out the conversation over time. But my feeling was, look, if there's any concern whatsoever, why would I use them? And I, so I use the ones with wires.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But you use the ones with wires that are even one step further away from, um, Wi-Fi transmitters.
- RRRick Rubin
There are ones with air tubes that I use depending on what's going on, um, and those have no electrical, um, there's no electric near your head. It's just an air tube where the sound is traveling, this, actual sound is traveling in the tubes to your ears.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. I definitely sleep better with the phone out of the r- bedroom. Some people are now turning off their Wi-Fi at night. I think you and I are both really aligned in the sense that we've seen enough things come and go in the health space, like disparaging remarks about lifting weights, like that's just for bodybuilders, and i- now everybody knows-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah, muscle-bound, you become-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right.
- RRRick Rubin
... muscle-bound.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right. Now, men and women, elderly and young are encouraged to do resistance training. Uh, yoga used to be cast in this kind of magic carpet realm.
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Breath work. All this stuff has become, over time, mainstream, but it's taken a very long time and the road has been choppy and sometimes, in my opinion, really unfair to the, to the practices and, and their value. I mean, these are zero cost practices in many cases that can really help people. And so when I look at something like sunscreen or, or, you know, Bluetooth headphones, or we're talking about some of these things, I, I wish I had a portal into the future where we look back and go, "Like, of course, of course." So, what are your thoughts on just kind of, um, health and wellness as you've observed it in the last 20, 30 years? I mean, you've been in this for a while. I mean, you've paid attention to mindfulness and mind-body stuff. You know, what are your thoughts?
- RRRick Rubin
I, I try to live in as natural way as possible. I try to eat as few processed foods as possible, try to eat grass-fed animals, um, and, and I use hardly any products of any kind, you know, that, that aren't just something that grows or lives on the planet.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There were a couple questions about this, so I'll ask now. Um, y- you lost a tremendous amount of weight. You look great, by the way.
- RRRick Rubin
Thank you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You look super fit. Every time I see you, you're in better and better shape. Um, and, uh-
- RRRick Rubin
That's, that's in, that's your perception. It's not, in fact, the case, but-
- AHAndrew Huberman
W- you're, you're-
- RRRick Rubin
... I'll accept it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, I don't know. When I see you each time, you're, I mean, you're extremely mobile, you, you're sleeping well, you have a robust life, like, you know, I mean all the marks of health and vitality. Um, so I've heard you mention before that you lost a significant amount of weight. How much weight and how did you do it?
- RRRick Rubin
135 pounds through a high protein, low calorie, low carb diet.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And that went against w- the convention at the time?
- RRRick Rubin
Uh, well, the person who suggested it was, uh, uh, someone at UCLA, so, uh, it was a mainstream doctor who helped me with my weight loss.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. So-
- RRRick Rubin
I had been a vegan at that time, which was not mainstream then, and it was very unhealthy, but I did that for 20 some odd years because I believed in the theory of it, but it proved not to be, um, healthy for me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you think that different diets likely work for different people?
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So, that not everyone necessarily should do what you did?
- RRRick Rubin
No.
- 24:31 – 28:34
Artificial Intelligence (AI); Childhood; Magic & Mentalists
- AHAndrew Huberman
well, I'm gonna start pulling from the list of questions. Uh, by the way, folks, there were more than a thousand...... questions in just the one-third printout that I did. Um-
- RRRick Rubin
It's an intimidating stack in front of you.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. It's the most notes I've ever put in front of me during a guest, uh, discussion here on the podcast. And we are not going to ask you every question. But I've organized them in a, in a s- some sense of coherent order. Um-
- RRRick Rubin
Did you organize them or did AI organize them?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I organized them, but that's a great opportunity to ask you one of the questions that came up several times, which was, um, what are your thoughts on AI and its ability to, um, shape how music is made, how visual arts are made? Are you one of these, like, scared of AI or do you embrace new technology?
- RRRick Rubin
I don't know enough about it yet to, to talk about it. What I will say is, what, what I find interesting about art is the point of view of the person making it, and I don't know that AI has a point of view of its own. So I'm... and I, I don't know how interesting it would be, AI's point of view. Uh, but I like people's points of view and what makes an artist a great artist to me is something about their point of view does something with, to me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Childhood. A question for Rick Rubin was, what activities did you find most enjoyable and easy to get lost in as a child? I love this question-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... for you in particular.
- RRRick Rubin
Reading was a big part of my life. Listening to music was a big part of my life. Playing guitar along with music, can't really play, but the idea of playing along, so it didn't have to actually be good enough to play along because I didn't have that skill set, but I liked the experience of doing my best to play along with something I was listening to.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
And, um, also magic. Uh, learning, like, shuffling cards in front of a mirror and, um, coin tricks and, uh, sleight of hand was just interesting to me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you still do magic?
- RRRick Rubin
I don't.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Okay.
- RRRick Rubin
At the time that music took over my life, I had to choose between the two because both of them were full-time life pursuits.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I went and saw a mentalist in New York this summer with my sister. Asi Wind is his name. A-S-I, first name. Last name, Wind. Every time I see a mentalist, and especially when I see Asi, I've seen him twice, it, it blows my mind. What are your thoughts on mentalists as-
- RRRick Rubin
It's my favorite form of magic.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Really?
- RRRick Rubin
It's the most interesting because it, it doesn't rely on props. It rel- it's, it's, it's pure... Um, it feels like pure magic.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
You know, if it... if you have a box and you pull something out of the box, there's probably something tricky about the box. But when someone can look at you and tell you what you're thinking, it's just wild. It's really wild. So I love that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
After Asi did his, his act, um, when we pseudo-returned to reality, because it really does change the way you look at things after that, uh, for quite a while, maybe forever, I asked him if he was willing to share maybe just like one nugget of insight into how he does what he does, with... And of course, I wasn't expecting he was gonna give away the, the whole thing. And he said, um, "A lot of it has to do with forming and erasing memories in people quickly," which sounds very kind of dark and mysterious.
- RRRick Rubin
That's really interesting.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, that maybe it's possible to, to erase memories-
- RRRick Rubin
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... in people. Like m- like, maybe what we thought we saw, we really didn't see or hear.
- RRRick Rubin
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So I, I dig that.
- RRRick Rubin
Great description.
- 28:34 – 34:58
Tool: Writer’s Block, Creativity, Diary Entries; Deadlines
- AHAndrew Huberman
a full 10% of the questions for you were around writer's block, sticking points, this kind of thing. Like, feeling stuck in the creative process. Now, people didn't specify whether or not they were stuck at the beginning, the middle, or the end, but based on my read of all of these questions, I got the sense that people were feeling like there's something in them that they want access to, they want to create, but they don't know how to get past that initial stage, as opposed to somebody who's like, you know, 90% done and they just can't finish the last 10%. What are your thoughts about these kinds of blocks and how to overcome them, um, any experience you've had with them yourself and perhaps with, uh, working with other artists?
- RRRick Rubin
The first thought is to go past the idea of the block and think about what, what is... what's the cause of the block? And the block is usually something like, it's either a personal, "I'm not good enough." It's, it can be a confidence issue. "I don't have anything to say." Or it could be a, um, thinking about someone else. "Nobody's gonna like what I make." Do, do you know what I'm saying?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
So it's either a, a self-judgment or fear of outside judgment. So if you're making something with a, with a freedom of this is something I'm making for myself for now. That's all it is. It's a diary entry. Everything I make is a diary entry. The beauty of a diary entry is I can write my diary entry and you can't tell me...... "my diary entry wasn't good enough," or, "That's not what I, that's not what I experienced." Of course, it's what I experienced. It's ... I'm writing a personal diary for myself. There, you, no one else can judge it. It is my experience of, of my life. Everything we make can be that, can be a personal reflection of who we are in that moment of time. It doesn't have to be the greatest you could ever do. It doesn't have to have any expectation that it's gonna change the world. It doesn't have to be this has to sell a certain number of copies for any reason. It doesn't have any of those things. All it is, is I'm making this thing. I'm making this thing for me, and I, I wanna do it to the best of my ability to where I feel good about it and where it's honest. It's honest of where I'm at. And if you're living in this world of just being honest to where you're at, there's nothing blocking that. Do, do you know what I'm saying? There are no blocks. The blocks are all based on dealing with a different force or a different perception that is made up. You know, you make up this story, and you're living the story. "I'm in this block because I just can't do it." The reason you can't do it is because you're afraid someone else is not gonna like it, or you're ... There are no blocks. There's, uh, there's infinite amount of information out there to work with, because it doesn't, it also doesn't stem from us, so we're, we're vehicles for this information, and it's coming through us all the time. So if you don't have an idea when you're sitting at your desk, if you go for a walk, chances are you'll see something that'll spark something in you as a, as a seed to take off from.
- AHAndrew Huberman
That makes a lot of sense, and had a thought while you were saying that. One of the challenges that I have in completing work and getting into a good work groove is that, um, especially nowadays because of phones and so easy to communicate with other people, it's not that they interrupt me. It's that ... And this happened the other day. I set up my new office really nicely. I'm living in a very quiet place now. It's, like, almost completely silent, unless I'm playing music. It's really interesting.
- RRRick Rubin
That's great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Or the coyotes sometimes come around and start doing their thing at night, but completely silent. And I realized I was having a hard time getting into a work groove, and I realized that I felt compelled to continue to reach out to people, and then I realized, as you just provided your answer to the last question, that, you know, there's probably something in me that has a bit of a fear of separation or abandonment from people, uh, based on my own experience. And I feel very well-supported by my friends and coworkers these days, very, very well-supported. I'm in a kind of pinch-me place around that, and but I realize now that what's happening in my mind is it's not a challenge of getting into the work. It's a fear that if I spend a couple hours really in that tight tunnel of creation, that there might not be anyone there when I exit it, which is a crazy thought.
- RRRick Rubin
That's a crazy thought.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But that's the anxiety.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I only realize that now.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So thank you.
- RRRick Rubin
Great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You know? I trust that you guys will be there when I, when I exit the tunnel. (laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
We'll be there.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And when there's a deadline, I have no choice but to jump into that tunnel. That, that's actually, uh, what helps. Deadlines really help me. Do deadlines help you? Do you like deadlines?
- RRRick Rubin
Uh, deadlines don't help me at the beginning of a process. They can help at the end-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm.
- RRRick Rubin
... once the code's been cracked. Usually, when I start something, I have no idea what it's gonna be, um, so it's a very open process in the beginning. And if there's any sense of, uh, required timing, that would undermine the freedom needed for it to be all that it could be. But once the code's cracked, and you know what it is, and it's all there, and you're just, you know, the f- you're dealing with the fine points, then, um, it can be really helpful to have a deadline.
- 34:58 – 35:54
Sponsor: AG1
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 35:54 – 40:43
Uncertainty; Creativity & Challenges; Sensitivity & Environment
- AHAndrew Huberman
A number of questions or sort of comments about what people believe your process is (laughs) and one of the repeating themes there, which I thought was interesting, was it seems that Rick Rubin is comfortable with uncertainty and the unknown.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes. That is true. Y- yes and n- uh, uh, yes, I am comfortable with it because I accept that's the way things are. That said, when I start a new project, I always have anxiety because I'm uncertain of what's gonna happen, and I want it to be good. Now, I know it won't be done until I feel good about it, so in that way, there is no, um, there's no real pressure, but I do still feel this anxiety of, "Well, I wonder what's gonna happen today? I hope it's good," you know?
- AHAndrew Huberman
When you've worked with musical artists, let's say, um, how important is it to you to know what challenges, maybe even what successes, but certainly what challenges they happen to be going through at that period in time? Put differently, do you end finding yourself playing therapist and guide and, um, psychological/emotional mentor to artists you work with during the creative process? Or is that separate?
- RRRick Rubin
Uh, if they're going through something that's interfering with the work, anything that gets in the way of the work is something worth discussing. Our focus there together is to get the work done. Sometimes it ends up being more therapeutic for, to allow that to happen.
- AHAndrew Huberman
One of the questions that really stood out to me in this vast list of questions, um, involved a, a quote from your last discussion on this podcast, our last discussion on this podcast. Um, so I'm gonna read, read a little bit of it 'cause it's fairly long, but, um, I found this to be a really important question that we should get into in a bit more depth. Um, somebody, I don't know who, said, "If you happen to talk to Rick," yeah, I happen to be talking to you, um, "ask him this for me. In his book, in the section on self-doubt, Rick said, quote, 'One of the reasons so many great artists die of overdoses early in their lives is because they use drugs to numb a very painful existence. The reason it is painful is the reason they became an artist in the first place, their incredible sensitivity. If you see tremendous beauty or tremendous pain where other people see little or nothing at all, you're confronted with big feelings all the time. These emotions can be confusing and overwhelm- and overwhelming.'" Excuse me. So, this goes on for some pages, and then this person says, and I think they're speaking for many people when they said, "This resonated with me personally, and I wonder whether or not this is something that maybe you've experienced yourself or that you just notice about artists in similar situations." And what sort of advice do you give the artists you work with in order to embrace those painful tones within them and transmute them into great work?
- RRRick Rubin
I've definitely felt them myself. I'm unusually sensitive in the world. I'm wearing red glasses in here for a reason. Um, I live a very, um, protected, monk-like life because stimulation gets in the way, uh, of my ability to be where I want to be. So, I tend to stay away from things. Um, and it, it seems to be the case with many artists, um, a desire for nurturing their internal life. And if, if the goal is to nurture our internal life, it, it, um, it invariably leads to sacrifices.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Did you spend a lot of time alone as a kid? I'm asking this question.
- RRRick Rubin
I did, yeah. I was the only child and I spent most of my time alone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
When you talk about controlling the s- amount and type of stimulation in your life to protect that inner la- landscape, does that pertain to certain personality types, even voice types? I've, I've found at various times in my life, I love people, but, um, there, there are certain voices that just grate on me and I can't be around them. I just can't (laughs) be around them. They drive me cr- It brings out... it, it just, it's like a cacophony inside. I just feel like I'm being asked to d- drink something that tastes awful. Um, does it, does that resonate?
- RRRick Rubin
Uh, I, I try to curate the people around me to be people I want to have around me.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
Whatever that is.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right.
- RRRick Rubin
You know, whatever that is.
- 40:43 – 48:51
Wrestling, Storytelling; Johnny Cash
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, you said you protect the inner landscape, but certainly you're not averse to high intensity stimulation. Like, last night we went to s- the AEW, and by the way, thank you for taking me. That was such an incredible experience.
- RRRick Rubin
It was really fun.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was really fun. It reminded me of early punk rock shows where I r- some of my first punk rock shows where I went and just was like, "Oh my gosh, this is exciting and scary and I love it."
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And it felt loving, too.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which is also the community of punk rock that I observed and f- have been blessed to be a part of. It's like I, it's like there, yeah, there's aggression, but there's also love and then there's romance and then there's also, um, betrayal and there's all the elements, but there's still a sense of like, everyone wants to be here and that there's a sense of goodness behind it all.
- RRRick Rubin
Absolutely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Even though some of it was bloody and violent.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So for you, what d- what does wrestling allow you to feel in those high intensity environments?
- RRRick Rubin
It, it completely relaxes me because there are no stakes. You know, nobody... Everyone's working together in the show to protect each other. No one's trying to hurt anybody, regardless of what the storyline is.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
It's like a ballet where there's a fight in the ballet. There's no, um, there's no actual aggression of people towards each other. It's just the opposite. But you get to experience this wildly dynamic, exciting, surreal theater piece, uh, where people are doing these, uh, gymnastic and acrobatic things that are truly death defying. Um, and it's fun, and the st- the storylines absorb you in a way where you know y- you never know what's true and what's not. Mo- You know, we know wrestling's fake. We're told wrestling's fake. But there's something, um, legitimate about it that seems, to me, more legitimate than anything else, the most legitimate, because it's the closest to what the world's actually like.... people don't always tell you what they really think, and when someone tells you a story, it might not really be the true story. E- They may even think, they may be th- they may think they're telling you the real story, and that might not be the real story. We don't know. We know so little. You know? We- we- we experience something and then we make up a story to understand it ourselves, and then forevermore when we tell that story, it was our version of a, of an experience, but we don't know that's what happened. That was our take on it. Um, wrestling is like, that's what the real world is like, because we n- when you watch wrestling, you never know what's true. That's what i- if you watch the news like you watch wrestling and you never know what's true, it's more, it would be more accurate. You- you- you'd have a better sense of the world if you took it all in like it was pro-wrestling.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I think we're in a place in human history where people are starting to feel that way about the media.
- RRRick Rubin
It's also why wrestling's so popular, you know? (laughs) It's- it's, uh, more popular than it's ever been.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, that's interesting. Things like UFC, kind of gladiator, like octagon fights, and wrestling are increasing in popularity despite the fact that supposedly we're evolving. (laughs) So I think it reflects something both primitive and evolved about the human brain.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right? Primitive in the sense that, yeah, there's some violence, it's physical. That's down in the hypothalamus as we'd say.
- RRRick Rubin
No, it scratches that-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
... itch.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
But they're actually protecting each other. You know? It scratches that itch of seeing the gladiators, but it's like watching a movie, you know? It's not, they're not really, it's, they're not really hurting each other. They get hurt, but only because the things they're doing are so crazy.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I think in order to be able to thoroughly enjoy wrestling, one has to be able to give up narrative distancing just a little bit, right? Narrative distancing is this sense that this is a story, it's a movie, it's not real. But there were moments like yesterday, the- the jump off the top rope onto the guy who splayed out on the ladder, the ladder breaks, this was right in front of us. It couldn't have felt good.
- RRRick Rubin
No.
- AHAndrew Huberman
He walked away. He seemed fine. (laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh, -ish. But that, and then, um, there was a match between two women where a woman put a metal plate into her, uh, into the bottoms of her suit and then ran and then jumped onto the other woman and, you know, hit her with the metal plate, and then the metal plate kinda slipped out and she was walking around and everyone knew she had cheated 'cause you're not supposed to use the metal plate, but so it was sort of exciting 'cause she had done it, exciting 'cause she had gotten away with it, and then at the same time, exciting and upsetting that the referee saw it, but then didn't call it. I mean, it's like, this is like Twitter, X. This is like-
- RRRick Rubin
Like real life.
- 48:51 – 56:36
Creative Endeavors & Outcome; Surprise in Oneself; Experimentation
- AHAndrew Huberman
One question that came up a lot, and I- I think I can understand why, which is...... how does one convince themselves that what they're doing and working on is worth it? And I think here we have to define worth it be-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... um, and we can define that any number of ways. But I think this is a feeling that I hear people express a lot, like, "How do I know if I'm on the right path?" And I just want to remind your earlier answer that you're, you're pretty comfortable with uncertainty.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Th- this, and the unknown.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah. It's also-
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I think that's a rare trait.
- RRRick Rubin
The, the question of worth it is reliant on an outcome. We don't make these things for an outcome. It's a, it's, it's not the mindset to make something great. The outcome happens, you're making the best thing you can make. It's a, it's a devotional practice. Whatever happens after that happens, and that part that happens after it is completely outta your control. Putting any energy into that part that's outta your control is a waste of time. All it is, all it does is undermine your work. Your work is to make the best thing you can. So any thought you have about outcome undermines the whole thing.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'll let that one sink in. I think that's so important for people to hear.
- RRRick Rubin
And I'll say, it's okay to think about outcome after you've finished the thing you're making. Once you've made it, then you can say, "Hmm, what can I do to turn people onto this?" But in the making of it, it's premature.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Which brings my mind back to that diary entry-like approach, because when you do a diary entry, if you lie to yourself, you're gonna get a lot less out of it.
- RRRick Rubin
It's re- i- it's a ridiculous idea, lying in your diary entries. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
It is. Well, it's so interesting 'cause when you learn how to do really good science, and I was fortunate to work with someone who was truly committed to the truth and accuracy, she used to just say, whenever there was a scandal published, like someone fabricated data, she was like, "This is so crazy." Like, o- like, "Why would you get into science? You'd be be- If you wanna make stuff up-"
- RRRick Rubin
Defeats the whole purpose.
- AHAndrew Huberman
"... you'd be, be b- better off going to something else." So clearly they weren't, those people who make up data were not in science for discovery of truth, as best we can understand it. They were into it for something else. But it's the same way you do, you formulate a question, then a hypothesis, and then you just go see what is and what isn't.
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And then afterwards you decide, well, is this a paper that's sent to a top journal or a mediocre journal-
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... but you can't control the outcome, so it's very similar.
- RRRick Rubin
Exactly the same. And it, and it, you'll see it in so many different aspects of life beyond art. It's, it's, I think one of the things that was interesting that came up in writing the book is it started being about art, and I came to realize as I was putting the ideas together that it seems like regardless of what you do in life, if you follow these principles, your life will probably improve. You'll probably be a better husband, or a better father, or a better whatever it is. It's, um ... it seems like the, the art is an outgrowth of, it's why the subtitle is A Way of Being. It's like, y- y- you create yourself in a way in the world where the things that you make are tapped into something deep. But that comes from you being tapped into something deep. (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
That's how it works.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So tapping into self, grounding in self, not thinking about outcome, diary entry-like approach to creating stuff seems to be the ...
- RRRick Rubin
And I, I think one thing I'll, I'll say to that, 'cause I say tapping into self, it doesn't come from the self, but you have to tap into yourself because you're the vessel to allow it to come out. Everything in the vessel is coming from somewhere else. It's not, it's not your creation. You're the, um ... it's like you're the sculptor or the, y- you're the data ana- analyst where you're taking these things from different places that you've noticed, some things that you've noticed, some things that you don't know that you've noticed but you did. You know, that's how we learn. You know, we take in a lot of information that we don't even know we're taking in. But the way we can take these data points that are inside of us, that came from outside of us, and create a constellation, that's what, that's what the artist's job is. But also that's what we all do all the time. And to get better at it, it's getting more in tune with yourself and opening yourself to things outside of, um ... I'll say if you have a narrow belief system, you'll have less information to, to work with, less data points.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- RRRick Rubin
So being open-minded and, um, allowing surprise, to be surprised, holding all of your beliefs very loosely.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's interesting because it, the way you describe this and from knowing you as well, it, it seems that this whole process is best served by having really good boundaries, like not getting, um, foggy about what's about you and what's about somebody else or about what other people want or the world wants, but also having really good antennae and being able to see what's happening in the world.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
You can't be cloistered and, and like this.
- RRRick Rubin
No.
- 56:36 – 1:00:37
Resistance; Business & Art
- RRRick Rubin
good.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How do you approach resistance, especially resistance in other artists you work with? You know, presumably people hire you, they, they wanna work with you, (laughs) they, they do wanna work with you, but I think what the person is asking here is if somebody you're working with is stuck, like they're stuck, do you ask them to think? Do you ask them to feel? Do you ask them to take a day off? Do you, uh, do a Dennis Rodman on them and send them to Vegas to party for a couple of days 'cause that's what worked for Dennis? Uh, y- do you leave them alone, let them come to you? I think people are very curious about what those sorts of interactions are like.
- RRRick Rubin
I think it's always a case by case situation. It really depends on the artist. It depends on the situation, and, um, and usually by the time that we're working together, any resistance they had in the past has already been overcome. Usually, we... I'm together with someone who we're... we make a team with the idea of making the best thing we possibly can, and we'll both do anything we can for that thing to be the best it can, it can be.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
We're past the resistance.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I noticed you s- remain friends with a lot of the people you've worked with, which is a great testament to you and your work and who you are. I just wanna mention that. That's not always the case, folks, with, uh, other producer-artist relationships, so it's worth pointing out. A practical question but I think one that, um, is, is worth asking is, uh, do you handle the finances around your work with artists, or do you have someone else do like negotiations and all of that kind of stuff?
- RRRick Rubin
I honestly have no idea how it works.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
I have no clue. It se- everything seems to get done, but I have no idea in the inner workings of any of it. I try to s- I try to stay out of as much, um... if it's not about making the beautiful thing in the moment, I don't really wanna think about it too much. I don't wanna be involved in that aspect.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It was interesting, when I was visiting you this summer, we had a really delightful dinner conversation with one of your other guests, and at one point, probably due to me frankly, the conversation veered a bit into the business realm. And I'll never forget. You said, in a very polite way that didn't feel dismissive at all, you said, "Let's talk about art instead." Right? Like enough about business, let's talk about art instead.
- RRRick Rubin
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I, and in that moment, I-
- RRRick Rubin
I don't remember that. Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Well, I gleaned a lot of gems from that visit. Um, I wasn't there to study you. I was there to hang out with you, but I gleaned so many gems, treading water in the pool, some of the other practices we'll talk about, but I remember that, and I think about that in myself a lot. In the morning, you know, the emails and things coming in, and then I think my purpose in life at this point in my life is to collect, organize, and disseminate health and science information.
- RRRick Rubin
Yes.
- AHAndrew Huberman
So that, for me, is art in this sense, and anything else feels kind of boring.
- RRRick Rubin
Someone else can do that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Right, right.
- RRRick Rubin
Someone else can do that. You have a particular gift in that you can take complicated scientific ideas and explain them in a way that all of us who are not scientists, who are not, um, medical students can understand, and it's really helpful. And you do it in a kind and loving way where we get the sense that you care that we understand. You explain it in a way that there's a, uh, a care in it that really speaks to us, so thank you for... thank you for teaching us.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Aw, thank you, and thanks for the words. That means a lot to me. That is indeed what it is for me. I want people to know the information because I think it's so cool and so important, and they need the information, and it's not about me. It's like-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... I, like they have to know.
- RRRick Rubin
It's cool, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And you did it this morning for this guy on the beach, so I, I... he'll, he'll see the light, uh-
- RRRick Rubin
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
... pun intended.
- 1:00:37 – 1:01:39
Sponsor: InsideTracker
- AHAndrew Huberman
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- 1:01:39 – 1:08:31
Source of Ideas; Internet & Information
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you prefer the WWE or the AEW, Rick?
- RRRick Rubin
I love them both.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
I love pro wrestling. Pro wrestling is great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How often do you abandon an idea or project? Like, is there a, is there a pile of journals with crossed out ideas some, what, place in Rick Rubin's basement?
- RRRick Rubin
I would say there, there are many ideas that have not yet come to fruition, but I wouldn't say I've abandoned any. They... it seems like... the ideas have a time when they wanna come to fruition, and regardless of what I think, I don't get to determine the calendar. The ideas come. I can get excited about it, I can work on it, and then hit a wall, nothing else and nothing... it just... impenetrable. And then, there'll be another project that's just sailing along easily and the universe is working to help support that idea. So, I tend to work where there are several balls in the air at once, and I don't fight against, um... if the universe is not helping a project, I'm wary to fight with the universe.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How many projects are you working on right now or typically?
- RRRick Rubin
I g- I c- it's impossible for me to even say. There are so many, there are so many ideas and some of them are in idea phase, and some of them are in mid, you know, mid-making stage, and some of them are in the final, you know, final detail stage. There's always something happening, and I'm always thinking about a lot of stuff. And some of it is stuff that I get to share with the world, but some of it might be, you know, remodeling a space or, uh... I'm always thinking about some creative, uh, puzzle.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I have to imagine that, for you, when the internet came to be, that it must have been really exciting, because like me, you love foraging for information. And I used to go to the library and Xerox copy papers, and I loved looking through the stacks, but frankly, it was physically exhausting and time-consuming, and financially, it was hard for me at the time. And then you'd always get those copies where, like, the book crease (laughs) , you know, obscured, uh, the, the text closer to the, to the spine of the book, and, you know, I love PubMed. I mean, like, it... the world's at my fingertips. The world of research is at my fingertips. My goodness. Uh, how do you feel about smartphones and the internet? I mean, it... to you, does it feel like a, like a giant gift for your creative process, or is it an inhibitor?
- RRRick Rubin
It's, it's both. You know, I love that all the information is at our fingertips, and sometimes having so much information is, um... it's hard to sort. I'll tell you a quick s- a quick story, which was when the music streaming revolution happened, I was really excited. The idea that all of music is in my pocket now, and I can listen to any, any song, any album from any point in my life, or I get to hear about something, and it's all accessible right now in this moment. And I was thinking at that time, "I'm just gonna DJ. All I'm gonna do is DJ, and I'm gonna h- listen to anything I can think of that I'm excited about. Haven't heard the Talking Heads in a while. Let's listen to Talking Heads." Just how great that, that freedom is to have everything at your fingertips. And what I came to learn very quickly is, I don't want to DJ all day. I love that I have the ability to DJ all day. I love that when there's something I want to hear, I can find it, but I don't want to have to do the work of picking everything I'm gonna listen to. I like being programmed to, and I like the discovery of somebody else playing something that I wasn't expecting and getting to enjoy that. So now, I do more listening to either somebody's curated playlists or, uh, online radio stations, and I do less picking music to listen to, but I never would've known that before because I always thought, "Well, if I could listen to anything I want, I wanna listen to what I wanna listen to." I didn't know that I didn't want to have to pick it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I love the rare live versions and, um, B-sides and whatever, Z-sides, that one can find on YouTube. Like the other day, you sent me, just at random, a, a clip from, I think it was a Japanese television show with The Ramones opening up. Um, and Johnny opens up with, "You're a loudmouth, baby. You better shut up," and then they, they dive into Loudmouth.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah, that song, yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And I... it's the song I could have heard anywhere else, but it was the fact that it was shot from above, that it was black and white, and that he adds this little riff at the beginning, "You're a loudmouth, baby. You better shut up," and then just dives into it, that made it, for me, as a huge Ramones fan, I was like, "Yeah." Like, you know. I think I did that in my kitchen, "Yeah!" Like, I was so hyped, because when you go and just listen to a song that's recorded as part of an album, you're not gonna get those additional pieces. Back in the day, and still now, if you went to a live show, you might see that and hear that and never forget that. But in that sense, to me, YouTube and, and the internet is like, whoa. Like, it's this arch- archive of gems-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... that I w- I w- potentially have been there, maybe it was '79, I would've been four years old.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) So, you know. Um, anyway, thanks for sending me that clip. Loved it 'cause you know how much I love The Ramones. But, um, things like that, I just think, "God, the internet is just amazing and so spectacular."
- RRRick Rubin
Absolutely. Yeah, and the amount of lectures you could find on YouTube are unbelievable.... the g- the greatest thinkers in the world, I want- I don't wanna say are on YouTube because they probably didn't post on YouTube, but their material is on (laughs) YouTube and it's unbelievable. You know, things from old films from the '50s and '60s. It's all on YouTube.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. I've been listening to Bible interpretation on YouTube.
- RRRick Rubin
Wow.
- AHAndrew Huberman
And there's just... It's interesting to hear different interpretations-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... from different perspectives and I would've never found these people.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah. Send me-
- AHAndrew Huberman
Most of them are d- are dead.
- RRRick Rubin
... send me links, please.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah, they're so good. I'm, I'm trying to work through the Old Testament, start to finish now as a, as a learning and a practice and wow. Okay, so the question was, "Are smartphones the chains that bind us and prevent our creativity?" Um, but I think you answered that it's both a, um, a rocket ship to creativity and a, and a, and chains to the ground.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah.
- RRRick Rubin
A- And it's like all of the tools, it's like the tools don't make or break your art. It's just, it's another tool. You can use it or misuse it.
- 1:08:31 – 1:14:07
Dreams & Interpretation; Unconscious Mind; Motivations, Art & Outcome
- AHAndrew Huberman
Someone wanted to know, and I would like to know, whether or not you have any recurring dreams and what are your thoughts on dreams and dreaming in general? Do you write down your dreams? Do you spend time-
- RRRick Rubin
I've gone-
- AHAndrew Huberman
... thinking about them?
- RRRick Rubin
... I've gone through phases of my life where I've written down dreams. I'm not doing it right now. Um, I think we can learn a lot from, from writing our dreams. I tend not to analyze them in the moment, but I've noticed when I've kept a dream journal and looked at it years later, these surreal things that made no sense were all saying the same thing and they were all very clear based on my life experience at that time. So it gives us clues as to, um, what's actually going on, the way our subconscious is experiencing our lives, it's giving us, uh... I don't know if I would call them pointers. Um, reflections would maybe be a better word.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Our mutual friend, Paul Conti, um, believes that the unconscious or subconscious is, um, both used interchangeably, is the super computer of the human brain, that the misconception is that the forebrain, which is involved in planning and context and anticipation of outcomes, et cetera, people think that's the super computer, but that the super computer is the unconscious. That's Paul's belief. He's stated that very clearly, uh, on this podcast and elsewhere, and he believes that in dreams, the unconscious mind is controlling more of the dialog, which makes a lot of sense.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
But also, that the unconscious mind is constantly trying to teach us things in the way that we learn best. So like my dreams, for instance, are all analogies 'cause that's pretty much... If people listen to me talk (laughs) on the podcast, I often will use analogy. Um, and I'm very visual, so it will present things to me in visual symbols. So Paul said in terms of dream interpretation that we would all be wise to think about how we learn best, and our unconscious mind is trying to toss us things in dreams to, um, explain things in the way that we learn.
- RRRick Rubin
It makes sense, and I would say also, unconscious and our instinct, the way we act instinctually, is a reflection of our unconscious.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
And as artists, that's a, tapping into that, the instinct and the unconscious is where the great ideas are, and then things that come from our, um, intellectual selves are, are much less. They're, they have much less of a charge. They're much smaller ideas.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. I think, uh, the, the conscious mind and the intellectual mind, as you- you're calling it, are bound to outcome in a big way. I- I'm gonna inject a question of my own. Um, I'm fascinated by the way you've discussed people's real underlying motivations and how that shapes their creative process, but also their career. Um, if you would be willing to talk a little bit about the story of Andrew Dice Clay. That's the story that, to me, captures it best.
- RRRick Rubin
Um, Andrew Dice Clay, uh, was am, uh, a comedian who told really offensive jokes and his audience loved him for it. But the people who weren't his audience didn't really understand it and they vilified him, and he became a comedian because he wanted people to love him. He didn't become a comedian to hurt anybody. He wanted to entertain people. And while he was playing to, you know, sold out Madison Square Gardens full of people, newspapers would write terrible things about him, and it really got to him. And he decided to change his artistic output to try to make the people who didn't like him like him. And when he did that, it undermined his whole gift and it, it just... It seemed like things fell apart. I think he's in a better place now. I haven't s- I haven't seen him in a while, but I think he's in a better place now and he's back to, uh, caring less about the reaction and, in turn, getting a better reaction- (laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
... um, because he's being pure in what he thinks is funny.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I liked him very much. In fact, I thought he did a spectacular job as playing, um, the female artist's father in A Star is Born-
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... which had Lady Gaga and, um, Brad Cooper.
- RRRick Rubin
He's a really good actor.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Mm-hmm.
- RRRick Rubin
He's a great actor.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Well, I really like the story about him because it e- encapsulates so much that if people can think about why they do what they do-... they're gonna avoid pitfalls, um, potentially. Um, but how much time do you think people should spend introspecting about what makes them tick and why they want to entertain or make jokes or, um-
- RRRick Rubin
I don't think it's a one-size-fits-all.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
I don't know that I could answer that question.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Is it true that Ad-Rock encouraged you to give LL Cool J a chance?
- RRRick Rubin
Yes, that is true. Ad-Rock heard the demo tape and insisted that I listen to it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Love that.
- 1:14:07 – 1:19:25
Career Advice, Book Writing, Diary Entries, Expressive Writing
- AHAndrew Huberman
This is a kind of generic question, but I think it's good to put these in every once in a while. Um, what is your advice to a starting comedian? You know, these are the, the sort of like ... So I- I always think of these, like, uh, you know, sophomore-in-high-school kind of question, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad.
- RRRick Rubin
No, not at all.
- AHAndrew Huberman
In some sense, that's what makes it such a great question.
- RRRick Rubin
(laughs)
- AHAndrew Huberman
Like, what would be your advice be to a starting comedian?
- RRRick Rubin
Be true to yourself and not to listen to anyone.
- AHAndrew Huberman
There you go. Um, it would be a great book, except it'd be a very short book, which would also make it a very great book. Um-
- RRRick Rubin
Well, it could be a blank book.
- AHAndrew Huberman
(laughs) It could be a blank ... exactly.
- RRRick Rubin
You can just put all the things that you wanna put in it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Oh, man. I'm working on a book now, and I'll tell you, it's hard. By the way, I asked Rick for advice about book writing, um, because I'm try- been trying to write this book for a while, and he gave me this- the following advice. So I'm injecting my own question. He said, "The sooner you can get to a complete draft that you're happy with or happy-ish with, the better the process will go." So I'm working on getting that complete draft.
- RRRick Rubin
Great. Yeah. I would say don't focus too much on any of the individual details until you have the whole thing down, and then you can focus on all ... making everything better that you wanna make better. Don't get bogged down in that at the expense of getting through the project.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Your advice has really been helping me, by the way.
- RRRick Rubin
Great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm doing it like diary entries.
- RRRick Rubin
Great.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Uh-huh. And I've kept a diary for many years, so that's somewhat natural.
- RRRick Rubin
Tell me a little bit about your diary entries. How long, how long is a diary entry?
- AHAndrew Huberman
Sure. Yeah. Um, a diary entry is anywhere from, like, one to eight handwritten pages, single-line spacing, going back and forth between ... I usually start in all capitals and then switch over to cursive as I speed up. Uh, I've been doing that since, gosh, since high school. I've got a drawer filled with them, dated and everything. And, um, it's usually a process of just trying to get something outta my system that I feel is c- is like clogging me, some frustration with the outside world. But sometimes, like this morning, I journaled, uh, in the room before you showed up, and I just was like ... think I was riding high off wrestling last night. I was marveling at how similar the great experiences of my life are now as they were to every other stage of my life in the sense that they give me this feeling of like, okay, like, there are these gems, and I'm ... and of people, you and others, and experiences, and I'm finding them. Like, I'm experiencing them and reminding myself that there, there are long periods in between those moments where things feel kind of like ... Not empty, certainly not empty, but, but kind of frustrating in the sense that, like, I'm busy, and I'm d- dealing with a bunch of things, and things don't feel smooth. And, um ... But I've been through enough of these cycles that I just am really learning to enjoy the cycles, and that was it. And, uh, I, and I think the last line in my entry was something like, you know, "And I, you know, and I can't wait for more," or something. So this morning's just a very positive entry, but sometimes, you know ... I mean, there are definitely some tear-stained entries, and there are definitely some entries where I'm just so pissed, I can barely get the writing out. But it's a, it's a process of, like, getting that stuff out so then I can lean into the, the day.
- RRRick Rubin
Do you ever go back and look at them?
- AHAndrew Huberman
I did the other day because I recorded an episode on a very particular type of journaling that's supported by over 200 peer-reviewed studies, which is called expressive writing. I can tell you about it, being brief.
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah. I'd love to hear about it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
It's a process that was developed by James Pennebaker, who is a professor at University of Texas Austin, and he had his students write as part of an experiment for 15 minutes a day for just four days, either consecutive days or a week apart, but about the same thing. And the thing that they're supposed to write about is the most challenging, upsetting, or even traumatizing experience of their life, and it shows that the data from over 200 studies show incredible positive shifts in psychology, physiology, immune system function, and ability to combat infections. I was so struck by the data from this work that I decided to dedicate a whole podcast episode to it. It'll probably be out by time, um, this episode airs. But, um, I haven't done that one yet. I'm gonna do it. It's a little bit of a higher bar of entry 'cause that's like, okay, I'm gonna ... I hear that the first day especially is pretty upsetting 'cause you're purposely picking something really hard, but ... Um, yeah, but most of the journaling I do is just kind of diary, like, "Here's what happened. Here's what's going on." And my biggest fear is that somebody would find them. But in preparation for that episode about Pennebaker, I went and looked at my journals and was like, "Well, what do I write about?" And I realized they're pretty autobiographical, um, sometimes about troubling things, but never before had I written f- four times in a row about the exact same thing.
- RRRick Rubin
Interesting.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Yeah. Yeah. Pennebaker, I think, deserves a Nobel Prize. If you look at the data on this compared to ... And I'm not disparaging prescription drugs per se, but, like, SSRIs for depression. It's, like, at least as good a treatment. It's, like, zero-cost stuff, but it, you know ... A- and on and on. You don't want ... To be careful, I'll start giving the podcast again now.
- 1:19:25 – 1:25:21
Music Industry; Capturing Ideas; Money & Ingenuity
- AHAndrew Huberman
There were a number of questions about, quote-unquote, entertainment and music industry, none of which, unfortunately, were particularly complimentary of, quote, the industry. And I think this is something that comes up a lot because people ...... often focus on the marketing, the personalities that may or may not be so pleasant at times. I'm sure there are a ton of pleasant personalities in the industry too. But the question is this, how do you deal with the, and these are their words-
- RRRick Rubin
Mm-hmm.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... soul-crushing, anti-creative aspects of the entertainment industry and hold onto that sense of creativity and love for the work?
- RRRick Rubin
I'm just focused on the work. I don't think of myself as part of the, um, the entertainment industrial complex. (laughs) I just make the things I make, and then there are other people who are good at figuring out how to sell them or get them into stores or get them onto services.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you ever process of capturing ideas? Like, do you write them down? Um, and th- the reason this question came up so many times, I think, is that a lot of people feel like they get great ideas right upon waking or while driving or in the shower, random times, and they're wondering whether or not you have any way of collecting and curating your ideas prior to embarking on, quote, unquote, "a project."
- RRRick Rubin
Uh, I- I write them. I make notes in my phone. I do it all the time. I don't have a great way of doing it, and sometimes I'll make a note and then come back to it later and have no idea what it means.
- AHAndrew Huberman
Do you make those notes, uh, by writing or by, uh, like voice memo?
- RRRick Rubin
Writing. That said, voice memo might be a- something worth trying. I've nev- never tried that.
- AHAndrew Huberman
How do you view money in relationship to your work? Meaning wh- how do you place it in the constellation of things related to a project? You- you mentioned earlier you let other people do the negotiations, but money is just another form of energy. Um, how- how do you place it in the, in the contour of what you do?
- RRRick Rubin
I- I don't- I try not to think of it at all, and I co- because I come from a punk rock background, which was like a do-it-yourself background, it was always more about the idea and the execution of the idea with whatever you could use to do it. So if I didn't have, uh, enough to go to a professional recording studio, then I would find a friend who had a home s- recording studio and record, or whatever it was, or borrowing a drum machine when I ... before I had a drum machine. I would always find ways to make the things I wanted to make, and, um, I- I can't remember a time where a financial boundary got in the way of making something. A- and I see it happening a lot around me, and it, um ... I think some people look at it as the money is what allows it to happen, and I think- I- I just see it as the idea's what allows it to happen, and then the ingenuity is figuring out how to do it with, you know, by any means necessary. You just gotta make it. Whatever the- that version is. It may not be the dream version, but whatever version you can execute is the one for you to make.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I can attest to the fact that I launched my podcast in my closet in Topanga Canyon-
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah.
- AHAndrew Huberman
... which felt totally natural, 'cause I also come from the skateboarding punk rock thing where, like wouldn't ever occur to me to like get a professional studio built like we're in now. We had this one built for us, but at the time, like of course you use a closet, 'cause you just need a black backdrop and, you know. I think starting from there makes so much sense. And you also realize in the m- minimalist approach, you know, anything added is just something added. So y- you don't really know what you need if you start with a lot of stuff around you. (laughs)
- RRRick Rubin
Yeah, it's- it can just be a distraction. I'm friends with Darren Aronofsky, who's a great director. And his first movie was called Pi, and he made it for practically no money, and it was really well-loved. And then the next movie he made was also wildly successful, and he made it for very little money. And then he made this huge $100 million movie and it wasn't- it turned out not to be a success, that movie. And it was a case of where having more money didn't help him tell a story. It's just one particular case, um, and it's no rule to follow. Uh, but there is something about making the version that you can make with the means that you have that adds something real to the project that may be better than the one that has a lot of money thrown at it.
- AHAndrew Huberman
I'm letting that sink in around ... A lot of online tutorials for science have a lot of visuals, but we knew we wanted to do YouTube, but also just pure audio, and it- there's nothing more frustrating than somebody talking about something or somebody that you can't see, 'cause you're just listening to it. (laughs) Um, and the visuals were really expensive to do right, and in the end, I think if pe- I firmly believe, in the classroom as well as via podcasting, if people can hear something clearly enough and create an image in their own mind of how they would visualize it, then it's in there for good. Whereas just having people look at a slide with- with a bunch of beautiful, ill- illustrations on it, that does nothing for retention of material. Um, so I think the minimalist approach, I think, sometimes is really the best one, maybe it's always the best one, because it forces the better solution, like the ... In any case, I do realize I editorialized there, folks. I entered the answering portion of the (laughs) not just the question (laughs) asking portion.
- 1:25:21 – 1:29:35
Audience; Innovative Ideas
- AHAndrew Huberman
Have you ever felt that something was too obscure for mainstream audience appeal to the point where you did not release it?
Episode duration: 2:28:08
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