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Jay Shetty Podcast

Dr. Gabor Maté: The SHOCKING Link Between Trauma and Life Expectancy!

Today, I'm honored to welcome renowned expert on addiction, trauma, and childhood development, Dr. Gabor Maté back to the podcast.

Dr. Gabor MatéguestJay Shettyhost

Feb 12, 20241h 9mWatch on YouTube

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CHAPTERS

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Chapter summaries

Finding Wholeness Beneath Brokenness
Jay Shetty asks how broken people can be fixed. Gabor Maté answers with a Leonard Cohen lyric, saying nobody is broken and that there is wholeness underneath, and he points to a death row artist as an example of transformation.
- •Maté cites Leonard Cohen's song to argue the heart beneath teaches the broken heart above
- •He agrees with Douglass that early experience shapes our world view
- •Early suffering matters more than later suffering, according to the studies he cites
- •A death row inmate who became an artist and learned meditation illustrates healing
- •Healing is finding wholeness rather than fixing something broken
What Early Experiences Disconnect Us From Ourselves
Asked about the most detrimental early experiences, Maté says anything that cuts a child off from their true self or from hope. He describes an enlightenment intensive where he believed the light in him had been killed in infancy.
- •Damaging experiences disconnect a child from gut feelings, the body and hope
- •The enlightenment intensive asked partners to answer "Tell me who you are"
- •Maté long believed he could heal others but not himself
- •Trauma is a spectrum, including sensitive children whom the world doesn't see
The Small, Still Voice and Authenticity vs. Attachment
Jay describes his inner voice being loud at times and quiet at others, and Maté links it to the Bible's "small, still voice". They discuss people-pleasing and the tension between authenticity and attachment, with Maté's advice to notice when you're not being authentic.
- •Louder voices of self-disregard drown out the true inner voice, as Sheryl Crow found after breast cancer
- •Children get the message that they can be themselves or be accepted, not both
- •Maté suggests noticing when a no or yes wants to be said rather than hunting for the authentic self
- •The one who notices is the authentic self, and noticing strengthens it
The Emotions People Experience Most Often
Jay asks which emotions people feel most day to day, and Maté names anger, rage, resentment, love, shame, fear and joy. He talks about his own difficulty with joy and a remark from Bessel van der Kolk about not dragging Auschwitz around.
- •Anger and resentment are often unacknowledged out of fear of consequences
- •Love can be hard to admit because it is vulnerable
- •Shame is frequent and tied to trauma
- •Suffering and joy in the world don't negate each other
How Fear Becomes Chronic Anxiety
Maté explains that fear is a wired survival circuit that becomes anxiety when a child's cries for help go unanswered. He tells the story of a Haida woman beaten at residential school for speaking her language, and uses the Beatles' "Help" to show how children shut down their need for help.
- •Fear that is not dealt with gets ingrained as anxiety about the world
- •The greatest danger to a young child is loss of relationship
- •A Haida woman's passivity was her organism's way of protecting her
- •John Lennon's "Help" shows a child adapting by believing he needs no help
- •Many people find it hard to ask for help
Helping Someone Who Refuses Help
Jay asks how to help someone closed off to help. Maté says he used to be that person, and that the best way is to be open and compassionate without pushing, since help works only when invited.
- •Pushing help creates resistance
- •Be around the person and stay open without insisting or proving anything
- •Life will eventually bring a challenge that leads them to reach out
- •Maté says the best way to help is not to help unless the help is invited
Fatal Beliefs and Honoring Others Through Honesty
Maté links chronic illness to ignoring one's own emotional needs and cites the top regrets of the dying and an obituary of a man who ate two dinners. He argues that being authentic honors others more than pleasing them does.
- •People prone to autoimmune disease often ignore their own emotional needs
- •The top regret of the dying is not being themselves
- •Two fatal beliefs: being responsible for others' feelings and never disappointing anyone
- •Maté is responsible for what he says and does, not for how others feel in response
- •Telling someone the truth shows more respect than pretending
Guilt as a Stupid Friend
Asked how to escape the trappings of guilt, Maté tells a legend of Moses and the angel to argue that guilt is a well-meaning friend. It arises in childhood to keep us close to our parents but has outlived its usefulness, which he distinguishes from healthy remorse.
- •The Moses legend shows that someone can hurt you in order to protect you
- •Guilt arises in early childhood to preserve the relationship, not because the child did wrong
- •Maté calls these early protective patterns stupid friends because they don't realize you're an adult
- •He suggests celebrating when you act for yourself
- •Healthy remorse is specific and short-term, unlike chronic guilt
Choosing Your Pain and Individuation vs. Individualism
Maté says there is no pain-free option and asks people to choose between the pain of suppressing themselves and the pain of being themselves. Jay brings up Thich Nhat Hanh's familiar and unfamiliar pain, and Maté distinguishes rugged individualism from individuation and explains how he handles what others think.
- •Familiar pain is often chosen over unfamiliar pain
- •Maté believes the pain of not being ourselves is the greater and more chronic one
- •Individuation means being yourself in genuine relationship, unlike rugged individualism
- •Maté says he can't worry what others think but does care how his actions affect them
- •A higher morality comes from love, citing Saint Augustine
Is There a Hierarchy of Trauma?
Jay asks whether some traumas are worse than others. Maté says that objectively there are differences, but comparing is not helpful, since trauma simply means a wound and every wound needs tending.
- •Comparing traumas isn't a helpful game
- •Telling a child that others have it worse doesn't help
- •Trauma simply means a wound
- •Maté compares it to stitching a cut without pointing to worse injuries
Holding Opposing Ideas and Finding Meaning in Illness
Prompted by Jay's F. Scott Fitzgerald quote, Maté describes integrative intelligence and wrestles with how a heart can be broken and not broken. He recalls dying patients who found authenticity through illness, and the author of Blessed With a Brain Tumor.
- •Integrative intelligence means holding two truths without rejecting either
- •Small children can only manage love or hate
- •Maté read a book about the Nazi horrors at age 11
- •Some dying patients called their disease the best thing that happened to them because it taught them authenticity
- •Maté says he isn't recommending that bargain, only reporting what he saw
Growing Older and Continuing to Grow
Jay suggests we need to hold two opposing ideas, such as being good and wanting to do better. Maté offers a unitary view in which nothing is wrong and the question is whether we can continue to grow, including in old age.
- •Maté asks whether the dichotomy is really needed
- •He reflects on the phrase "growing older" as he approaches 80
- •Emotional and spiritual growth can continue forever
- •Growth is the essence of life, even if the body contracts
How Trauma Shows Up in the Body
Maté gives examples of patients and public figures whose early trauma seemed to echo in their physical illness, and explains that mind and body are one system. He describes a woman who recovered from lupus after dealing with her emotions, and calls for combining Western medicine with indigenous wisdom.
- •A dancer with ALS had dreamed all her life of being buried alive
- •Emotions, nervous, hormonal and immune systems function as one system
- •Maté cites a Harvard study linking severe PTSD to double the risk of ovarian cancer
- •A woman's lupus symptoms disappeared after she dealt with her trauma and became authentic
- •The indigenous medicine wheel suggests combining ancient wisdom with Western medicine
Maté's Wish for Humanity and Closing
Asked for his wish for humanity, Maté tells the story of the Buddha saying "I'm awake" and hopes we can wake up to our possibilities and be a human race together. Jay recommends The Myth of Normal and the two thank each other.
- •Maté wishes people would wake up to their possibilities
- •He says conflict is unnecessary at the deepest human level
- •Jay points listeners to The Myth of Normal for deeper resources
- •Maté calls his time with Jay an oasis of peace

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