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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Dr. Gabor Maté: The SHOCKING Link Between Trauma and Life Expectancy!

Today, I'm honored to welcome renowned expert on addiction, trauma, and childhood development, Dr. Gabor Maté back to the podcast.

Dr. Gabor MatéguestJay Shettyhost
Feb 12, 20241h 9mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 1:01

    Intro

    1. GM

      You can be yourself or you can be accepted, but not both at the same time. At some point, you start wondering, "Who the heck are we anyway?" You know him as the best-selling author of a number of books.

    2. JS

      For his work on the relationship between addiction and childhood development.

    3. GM

      Please help me welcome Dr. Gabor Maté. The top regrets of people who die before their time, you know what it is? That they weren't themselves. They spent their whole lifetime to please others. That's the top regret.

    4. JS

      How do we fix broken people? [gentle music] Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

    5. GM

      The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

    6. SP

      Jay Shetty.

    7. GM

      The one, the only Jay Shetty.

    8. JS

      I've

  2. 1:01 – 8:12

    How Do We Fix Broken People?

    1. JS

      had the burning desire to ask you this question. So I read this quote the other day, and it says... It's by Frederick Douglass.

    2. GM

      Yeah.

    3. JS

      And the quote goes, "It is easier to build strong children than fix broken men." And my question was, how do we fix broken people?

    4. GM

      There's a wonderful song by Leonard Cohen called "Come Heal or Come Healing." So it begins, "Oh, gather up the brokenness, bring it to me now. The fragrance of those promises you never dared to vow." And then he says at some point, and here's the answer to your question, "Oh, troubledness concealing an undivided love. The heart beneath is teaching to the broken heart above." So this poet, prophet, poet, visionary is saying we have two hearts. There's the brokenness above and the undivided love that's below, that's underneath. He's saying there's the broken heart above, and then there's a heart beneath that teaching the broken heart. So that implied in that is that nobody's broken. That underneath the brokenness, there's wholeness. So, and that's not only Leonard Cohen. Any spiritual teachers you know will tell you the same thing. So it's not a matter of fixing anything broken. It's very... It's finding the wholeness that's underneath the brokenness. Now, Douglass is totally right. Studies have shown that if you get children who suffer for first three years, and then things get okay for them, they do much worse than those children who are well-treated and have a good life for three years, and then everything goes to pieces. The latter group do, do, does much better. 'Cause there's words where it says, "The child is the father of the man." So that what happens early in life shapes our world view and our sense of ourselves. So yes, Douglass is totally right. But ultimately, when I look at people, whether they agree with me or don't, or whether they are suffering or not, or whether they, even when they do terrible things, there's, there's a wholeness. There's an undivided love underneath it, isn't there? There, there's a show right now in Los Angeles by somebody who's in a death row prison in Texas, and his name is Obie. Sentenced to death, and he's on death row. Has been for the last 20 years while his appeals wind their slow way through the courts. If he wins the appeal, the best thing he can hope for is life without parole. And he's in love with life. He's had a transformation. He's dealt with his addictions. He's dealt with his brokenness. He's, he learned meditation. He's an artist, and some of his art is being shown in Los Angeles right now. Unfortunately, I can't go see it 'cause it's only open certain days a week, and I'm not here. But there's somebody who came from a totally broken childhood and found a kind of presence. If you saw him, you and I could only envy the kind of presence and, and at least to speak for myself, can't speak for you, the kind of presence and the kind of engagement with life that he's got on a d- in a death row prison. Well, if that can be healed, if that brokenness, the wholeness can be under, discovered underneath, there's nobody broken.

    5. JS

      Mm. Very well said. I, I would agree to at the core, at the root, at the essence, none of us are broken.

    6. GM

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      And our engagement with that which is broken and imperfect often rubs off on us. But what would you say are the most detrimental experiences that people have in those three years that end up creating horrific ripple effects long term?

    8. GM

      Anything that makes them disconnect from themselves, from their true selves, from their gut feelings, from their connection to their bodies. Um, anything that deprives them of hope. Now, I rem- I remember taking part in a retreat once. It's called an enlightenment intensive, where you do intensive spiritual work. I won't go into the details, but-

    9. JS

      Please go into the details.

    10. GM

      Well, it, it's, it's, it's dyads and two people at one time sitting across from each other in, in a meditation posture, putting a question to one another. First a quest- one person asks, the other one listens, and then you switch places for four times, and then you get a different partner. And the question is, "Tell me who you are." The original question comes from, um- Ramana Maharshi, whose work I'm sure you know, uh, one of these Indian rishis and gurus who just asked everybody, "Tell me who you are." And the idea is that by emptying your mind and saying whatever is in your head, clearing out the mental space, the direct experience of who you are will come to you. A direct experience. Not a thought, not an emotion, but a direct experience. Now, I never had the direct experience, and I was embittered at the end. And at the very last dyad person said, "Tell me who you are," and I just started shaking, and my whole body was tingling. And instead of paying attention to that, I, I plunged into bitterness, and I said, "Is it my fault? They turned off the light in me. They, they killed the light in me so early." So I truly believed that the light in me had been killed by what had happened to me as an infant. And for much of my life, even after I became a healer, and even after I became a, a healer that was respected by so many people, I thought I could help heal everybody else, but I can't be healed myself. So to go back to your question, whatever early experience kills your faith in your own possibilities, that's what's so damaging. And for that it could be evidence or experiences of severe abuse. It could also be a very sensitive child who the world doesn't see for who they are, who the world doesn't permit to express themselves, so they shut off from themselves in order to be accepted by the world. So any early experience that deprives you of yourself, and that happens to a lot of us. So trauma is a huge spectrum, but anything that breaks your connection to yourself and your, and your genuine, not your false egoic belief in yourself, but your genuine belief in your wholeness, that'll do it, and that happens to a lot of us.

  3. 8:12 – 15:12

    The "Small, Still Voice" In Our Heads

    1. JS

      I've always personally experienced it as the volume of my inner voice.

    2. GM

      Yes.

    3. JS

      So I found at that at different points in my life, my inner voice was extremely loud and clear, and not only could I hear it clearly, but the direction was clear. And then I've had moments in my life where as you were refer- referencing disconnected from yourself-

    4. GM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... that voice is extremely quiet, maybe even nonexistent, or it's screaming out for help. It's-

    6. GM

      You mean the voice of your inner self is very quiet?

    7. JS

      Correct. It can be.

    8. GM

      Well, the Bible talks about the small, still voice. They actually call it that, the small, still voice, and it really takes attention to notice it 'cause there's so much noise in the world and so much noise in our heads, and there's all these other voices that are much louder. You know, the singer Sheryl Crow, she had breast cancer, and, uh, she said afterwards... And this could be... And I quote this in The Myth Of Normal, and it could be right out of my own work, but she doesn't know about me. She just came to this awareness because the disease taught her something, and she said that she always used to be serving other people and trying to meet other people's emotional needs. And the breast cancer, now she's actually listening to herself, and she says, "There used to be these loud voices inside myself telling me that whatever I did wasn't right enough." She says, "Now I've stilled those voices."

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. GM

      You know? So on the one hand, the, the voices of self, um, disregard and, and, and, and self-loathing or self-seduction are very loud, and that true voice for most of us is just so quiet.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. GM

      So it takes a lot of attention to, to, to notice it.

    13. JS

      Mm. A lot of what you're saying today, we experience it as this idea of people pleasing, shape-shifting-

    14. GM

      Yeah

    15. JS

      ... mediating, wanting to make peace often in our families, in our friend circle. All of which are can be good, noble things, but often we find ourselves disconnected from ourselves trying to play these different roles. Not only does that seem to be stemming from a form of trauma, of being disconnected from yourself early on, what steps can one take to regain one's connection with one's self so that we're not running around shape-shifting, people pleasing, but at the same time have genuine connections with others?

    16. GM

      In, in the book we talk about this tension between authenticity and attachment.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. GM

      And authenticity being connected to our true selves, our gut feelings, which is necessary. Uh, th- nature gave us gut feelings for a good reason and gave us emotions for a good reason. Uh, attachment is a need to belong, and if we can be authentic and belong, that's ideal. So if, if you can find relationships in which you can be our true selves and be accepted and loved, that's ideal. But a lot of our families of origin, our parents just couldn't give that to us. Like, they had their own limitations. They couldn't see us, so they had their own traumas, like I did as a parent. And so kids then get the message that you can be yourself or you can be accepted, but not both at the same time. At y- at which point, for sheer survival's stay, for sheer survival's sake, we go with, "Well, what do we need to do to get accepted?" And then we get that message reinforced in school, and on the playground, and with our peers, and at our work. And at some point you start wondering, "Who the heck are we anyway?" And, "Whose life am I leading anyway?" Well, how to get back to it? Here's the question. Prior to your awakening, and I'm sure that for your awakening was probably both a series of unique events, but also it was a long-term process. For me, it was mostly process rather than distinct e-e-experiences. But say prior to awakening, did you sometimes know that you're not being authentic? 'Cause I sure did. I didn't know why I was choosing not to be authentic if I... I wasn't even choosing it. I just wasn't. But something in me knew.

    19. JS

      Mm.

    20. GM

      Well, here's the question. Who inside us knows? Only that authentic self-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. GM

      ... that's always there. And so I say to people, "Don't try and look for the authentic self. Just notice when you're not authentic. Just notice when you're not saying no, when there's a no that wants to be said. Just see where you're not saying yes, but there's a yes that wants to be said inside you." Notice the impact on you when you don't assert your true self. How do you feel afterwards? Resentful, ashamed, or tired, or whatever. So notice the difficulty being authentic and ask yourself, "Well, what is the belief that I'm carrying that if I'm authentic, then what?"

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. GM

      So in other words, now all that noticing, what does that do? Who's the one that's noticing? It's the authentic self.

    25. JS

      Mm.

    26. GM

      So just by asking those questions, you're strengthening, you're empowering that authentic self. And just going back to that, the heart underneath is teaching the broken heart above. Well, that wholeness is teaching the disconnection.

    27. JS

      Mm.

    28. GM

      It's always there.

    29. JS

      Mm. I find that in between those two hearts and in between those two layers, there's almost a layer of guilt and shame. So when we go against our authentic self, we do it because we're scared of whether we feel guilty or we may feel shame or fear.

    30. GM

      Yeah.

  4. 15:12 – 24:53

    What Are the Emotions People Experience Most Often?

    1. GM

      what are the emotions people experience most often? I think, um, anger, rage, and resentment. I think there's a lot more of that than we acknowledge. Now, often unacknowledged. Experienced, but not acknowledged for fear of consequences. I think also love, that we also enough, are often afraid to acknowledge because it's so vulnerable.

    2. JS

      Mm.

    3. GM

      And we might... See, if I want you to love me, but I'm afraid to be vulnerable, then I may try to impress you, which may be the closest thing I can get so that you'll pay attention to me. You know? So that emotion shame, I think, is very frequent for a lot of people.

    4. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. GM

      Uh, that's has to do with trauma more than anything else. Fear is something that people experience a lot, um, much more than they can admit to themselves. Joy, people are not so afraid of it. Well, you know what? They might be. Joy has been very difficult for me in my life, and I think some part of... Actually, some part of me used to say, "What right do I have to feel joy when there's so much suffering in the world?"

    6. JS

      Mm.

    7. GM

      Now, that's logically a good question, but it's a nonsensical question.

    8. JS

      Why?

    9. GM

      Because there is a lot of suffering in the world, and there's a lot of joy in the world, and one doesn't negate the other. So for me, it was like, what right do I have to experience joy when my grandparents died in Auschwitz? I, I quote this in The Myth Of Normal, my friend and colleague and teacher, Bessel van der Kolk, a psychiatrist who wrote the book, The Body Keeps the Score. He said to me once, "Gabor, you don't have to drag Auschwitz around with you all the time." Which means that you don't have to allow it... Not to forget about Auschwitz, but not to let that control your consciousness, which means you do have the right to feel joy. You, you do have the right to be happy, even as the world suffers. Not because the world suffers, and not ignoring the suffering in the world, but there's no contradiction.

    10. JS

      Let's dive into some of those emotions because... And I love how they were easy answers for you and then the curveball. But I think, as you said, fear is a repetitive daily emotion thought for so many people.

    11. GM

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      A lack of safety emotionally, mentally, physically. On so many levels-

    13. GM

      Yeah

    14. JS

      ... we feel unsafe.

    15. GM

      Yeah.

    16. JS

      How does one process and heal through and with fear? Because it seems to be c- so consistent.

    17. GM

      The way that fear shows up in most people's lives is in the form of anxiety. S- see, we are wired for fear. There's a great, uh, neuropsychologist, died a few years ago before his time- Dr. Panksepp, and he identified all these emotional circuits that we share with other mammals, and fear was one of them. We have a circuitry for fear. Good thing. If we're not afraid, we die out there in nature, you know? But that can become anxiety. So let me tell you a story. I want to show you this bracelet that I'm wearing.

    18. JS

      Mm. It's beautiful.

    19. GM

      Um, it is beautiful, and I never thought I'd ever be wearing a bracelet. But I was given this just shortly after the time that I met you, and this comes from a place called Haida Gwaii. And Haida Gwaii is islands in northern British Columbia where I live. They used to be known as... Well, they used to be known as Haida Gwaii. Then with the British colonization, they became known as Queen Charlotte Island.

    20. JS

      [laughs]

    21. GM

      That's really funny.

    22. JS

      Yeah.

    23. GM

      'Cause I was speaking in London once, or actually a couple of months ago, to an audience of twenty-one hundred Britishers, and I said, "Does anybody in the, uh, this audience know who the hell Queen Charlotte was?"

    24. JS

      [laughs]

    25. GM

      Nobody knew. [laughs]

    26. JS

      No one knew, yeah. I don't know.

    27. GM

      Well, apparently she was some German princess who married King George, the mad King George, who was King of England when America became independent. Anyway, so the British came. They named it Queen Charlotte Island. All of a sudden, these indigenous people, whose ancestors have been living there for something like thirteen thousand years, all of a sudden they were living on, not on Haida Gwaii anymore, which means land of the people, but they were living in Queen Charlotte Island. So I was giving a trauma workshop there for Haida people. That's when they gave me this bracelet, and the meaning of the carvings, uh, means these words matter. At the end of two days, almost at the very end of the trauma workshop for the Haida people, a woman in her seventies at least comes up, and she said, "I used to speak perfect Haida until I was five years old, and then I forgot my language. And even when I've gone back to school as an adult to learn my native language, the words don't stick in my brain." And I said, "What happened to you?" Well, what happened to her, she went to this residential school. Residential schools are where the indigenous kids were forced to go, run by the churches mostly, and she dared speak her native language, and the teacher took a stick and beat her mercilessly in her body and her head and her limbs. Oh, native kids in, in my own lifetime is when I was a teenager in British Columbia, a four-year-old Indian n- Indian. They're not Indians. Indigenous Canadian, uh, First Nation kid spoke their own language. They'd have a pin stuck in her tongue. So they literally... So I said to her, "Look, you're losing your language. Was your organism protecting you? It was your fear system telling you that if you do that again, you know, you might not survive." 'Cause she hated herself for it. She hated herself, hated herself for the anxiety. She hated herself because, "I was so passive," she said. I said, "That passivity was your organism's only way-

    28. JS

      Mm

    29. GM

      ... to protect you.

    30. JS

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 24:53 – 31:51

    How Can You Help Someone Who Refuses to Be Helped?

    1. GM

      One of the biggest things that people are afraid to do is to ask for help.

    2. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. GM

      When I give workshops, and I, I myself is, my automatic reaction when somebody offers help, "Oh, no, it's okay. I'm fine." Even though the help would be very welcome, you know? [laughs]

    4. JS

      Yeah. How do you find that? Because I feel so many people today have someone in their life who's closed off from help.

    5. GM

      Yeah.

    6. JS

      It might be a partner, it might be a child, it might be a parent.

    7. GM

      Yeah.

    8. JS

      We all have someone in our life who, in our limited capacity, but a little bit of awakening, we can notice that someone is really closed and won't receive help.

    9. GM

      Yeah.

    10. JS

      How do you help someone who is rejecting help or not accepting that they may need it because of the position they've experienced based on what you just said?

    11. GM

      I myself used to believe I was one of these people. I actually used to believe... Can you believe this? I used to believe that everybody else could be stressed, but I couldn't be.

    12. JS

      Mm. I re- I used to feel like that too.

    13. GM

      You know, I u-

    14. JS

      Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    15. GM

      I used to believe that I can help, I can help everybody, but I don't need help myself, you know?

    16. JS

      There used to be a time when I used to feel that too, yeah.

    17. GM

      Yeah. So, uh, how do you help somebody with that? You help them by accepting that that's how it is for them right now and not trying to push your help on them.

    18. JS

      Mm.

    19. GM

      'Cause when you try and push help, you're just gonna get resistance. So you, if you can handle it, you can be around them and be open, but not insist or try and prove to them that they need help. Life will teach them. When I meditate these days, I do the, uh, compassion meditation-

    20. JS

      Yeah

    21. GM

      ... which says, you know, that may I, um, face and overcome all of life's inevitable setbacks and challenges and failures with patience, understanding, um, strength, and determination, and may I rise above them with, um, compassion and morality and integrity and wisdom and, and mindfulness. If we can stare on people compassionately without trying to prove to them that they need something that they don't believe they need-

    22. JS

      Mm

    23. GM

      ... then at some point, life will bring a challenge that may prove to them that, yeah, they, they need help.

    24. JS

      Mm.

    25. GM

      And if you're still around, open, then they'll reach out to you.

    26. JS

      Mm.

    27. GM

      If you try and convince them, um, bring them over, um, prove it to them, force it on them, and I, I believe I've done that. I've done it with my own family. I've done it with others. You just invite resistance.

    28. JS

      Mm.

    29. GM

      So the best way to help people is not to help unless the help is invited.

    30. JS

      And that's almost what most of us don't want to hear because we want to, again-

  6. 31:51 – 41:26

    How Living Authentically Honors Your Relationships

    1. JS

      Yep.

    2. GM

      But we're sort of, we're so afraid of disappointing others.

    3. JS

      [laughs] And then one day I may feel we have an inauthentic friendship-

    4. GM

      That's right

    5. JS

      ... because I can notice that you're not being fully yourself.

    6. GM

      Yeah.

    7. JS

      And then, then I can even feel that way. You can let me down even by trying to be everything I wanted you to be. That's what I so find so fascinating in life, is that you can let someone down even after becoming everything you thought they wanted you to be.

    8. GM

      Well, exactly. Well, g-go back to that example of coffee. If I said to you, "Jay, I'm sorry, I can't do it today," which honors you more?

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. GM

      If I believe that you're so weak and vulnerable that you can't handle a no, or if I honor you by telling you the truth?

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. GM

      Which shows you more respect?

    13. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    14. GM

      You know?

    15. JS

      Definitely there.

    16. GM

      So that I can be everything you want me to be and still not honor you.

    17. JS

      Yes. Yeah. It's fascinating how we can be so opposite in our perceptions and viewpoints.

    18. GM

      Yeah.

    19. JS

      And a big part of that comes also, we talked about fear, but I wanted to talk about guilt because-

    20. GM

      Yeah. Oh, yeah, guilt.

    21. JS

      Guilt. Yeah.

    22. GM

      What, what do you want to say about guilt?

    23. JS

      No, well, what I, what... Well, I wanna hear from you about guilt, but when I think of guilt, I think it's such a strong driver for so many actions in the world today.

    24. GM

      It is.

    25. JS

      We're guilty of something in the past, and therefore we do something strange in the future or the present-

    26. GM

      Yeah

    27. JS

      ... that we wouldn't have done. We feel guilty right now, and that makes us say something that we don't mean or something that we-

    28. GM

      Exactly

    29. JS

      ... how do we untrap ourselves from the trappings of guilt?

    30. GM

      Great. Well, let me tell you a story. So, uh, you know, in the Bible, in the Old Testament, Moses is, um, um, a Hebrew boy born at a time when the Pharaoh's, um, soothsayers declare that some Hebrew male born around this time will rise up and challenge the Pharaoh. So they decide to kill all the H- Hebrew newborns by throwing them into the Nile River. But Moses' mother, rather than throws the boy into the river, but in a wicker basket. And so Moses flows down the river, and he gets plucked out of the water by the Pharaoh's daughter, who adopts him. So this Hebrew infant is, um, adopted into the royal court, treated like a prince.

  7. 41:26 – 46:10

    Embracing "Unfamiliar Pain"

    1. JS

      this beautiful idea that Thich Nhat Hanh shares that there's familiar pain and unfamiliar pain.

    2. GM

      Mm.

    3. JS

      And these are our two choices, and the challenge is we're so scared of unfamiliar pain-

    4. GM

      Yeah

    5. JS

      ... that we would rather choose familiar pain-

    6. GM

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... and go through the same pain because we know how it's going to feel.

    8. GM

      Exactly.

    9. JS

      And we think, "Oh, at least I'm aware. At least I am conscious of how bad it can get."

    10. GM

      Exactly.

    11. JS

      But hearing you speak, being independent or being dependent both has pain.

    12. GM

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      And but the pain of dependence far outweighs the pain of independence.

    14. GM

      Well, just put a bit of a nuance in there.

    15. JS

      Mm.

    16. GM

      Ultimate- I mean, I mean, Thich Nhat Hanh also talk about inter-being.

    17. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    18. GM

      How we all inter-are.

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    20. GM

      So in a certain sense, we do depend on each other, you know, and, and that's okay. The question is, do we depend on any- each other authentically or inauthentically? The fact that I'm independent doesn't mean that I'm not gonna reach out for help.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. GM

      Or that I won't offer it.

    23. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    24. GM

      But it does mean that- I will be honest with you, and I won't pretend to be somebody else that I'm not-

    25. JS

      Mm-hmm

    26. GM

      ... so that you'll accept me.

    27. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. GM

      You know? So there's anything interesting word difference be- between two phrases that sound very familiar. One is called individualism and the other's called individuation.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. GM

      Now, rugged individualism is I don't need anybody, and I, you know, it's me against the world, and this is the North American capitalist ideal, you know? Well, human beings never would have evolved had we been those rugged individualists.

  8. 46:10 – 56:31

    The Hierarchy of Trauma

    1. JS

      there a hierarchy of pain or hierarchy of trauma?

    2. GM

      What do you mean by hierarchy?

    3. JS

      I feel like people feel like, well, this trauma's worse than this trauma, and this trauma is better than this one. We often hear about that as a conversation. Is that accurate?

    4. GM

      So one could say so, uh, 'cause if you look at a child who's, say, sexually abused as opposed to a child whose parents just can't honor and accept and, and validate their emotions, well, my God, you're talking about two different set of experiences so that there's certainly horrific things happen to some people to wound them, and other people suffer wounds in a very different way. But the question is, is it useful to make that distinction? It's one thing to recognize it, but let's say, let's say you are my four-year-old. You come to me and you say, uh, "Dad, I'm afraid of so-and-so." And I say, "Snap out of it. Only cowards are afraid. Now, get out of here and take care of yourself." And then you went to your mom and said, [whimpers] "I tried to talk to Daddy, but he..." you know. Would it be helpful for your mother to say, "Oh, snap out of it. Think of all the kids that are being sexually abused. Think of all the starving kids. Think of all the kids that are being bombed. What are you complaining about?" Would that be helpful?

    5. JS

      No.

    6. GM

      So that it's not a helpful game to play. I don't compare people's traumas. Uh, trauma simply means a wound, and people are wounded in all kinds of ways. When I try to help people, the least helpful thing I can do is to tell them that somebody else's trauma is much worse than mine-

    7. JS

      Mm

    8. GM

      ... or much worse than yours.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. GM

      So objectively, yes. Practically, it's not a helpful distinction.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. GM

      Uh, people are wounded, and you have to tend to the wound, whatever it is. You know, if you came to me with a cut on your arm and you asked me to stitch it up, it wouldn't be helpful for me to tell you that, "Oh, what are you worried about? There's people with broken arms out there, or people with broken..." You know. So no, it's not a helpful-

    13. JS

      Mm

    14. GM

      ... thing to engage in, even though there's truth in it.

    15. JS

      Yeah. What's really fascinating every time I speak to you, Gabor, is that there's such nuance, subtlety, and there's a quote that I wanna share with you to get your thoughts on. I wanna bring it up here.

    16. GM

      Yeah.

    17. JS

      So this quote is from F. Scott Fitzgerald-

    18. GM

      Okay

    19. JS

      ... who famously wrote The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless, yet be determined to make them otherwise

    20. GM

      Absolutely. So that's brilliant, and what Fitzgerald is talking about there is what is called integrative intelligence. And integrative intelligence is when you can say, "On the one hand, on the other hand, both things can be true, and, uh, I need to somehow come to some conclusion about them without rejecting the one truth or the other." Now, little kids are totally incapable of integrative intelligence. So a three-year-old will either say, "I hate you, Daddy" or "I love you, Daddy," but they can't say, "I love you, Daddy, but I'm very angry with you," which is really what's going on. It's either love or hate. So integrative thinking is a capacity of intellectual and actually emotional maturation. A lot of people are completely incapable of it. It's one or the other. You talk about the, the deadness of the heart-

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm

    22. GM

      ... and the moral apathy. And all my life since I've been, um, conscious of the horrors, including and beginning with the Holocaust that nearly killed me and killed my grandparents, nearly killed my parents and I. But when I became conscious of that at age 11, what happened was that my parents had a book on a high shelf they didn't want me to read. And when I was 11, I climbed up on a chair, and it was a book called "The Scourge of the Swastika." And it was about... It was the first book about the Nazi horrors, and I saw photographs, and I read the story. And for years, Jay, afterwards, literally every day, my head would be dizzy. I'd spin, say, "How is this possible? How is our heart not broken every day?" I'm asking you now-

    23. JS

      Hmm

    24. GM

      ... 'cause I- I'm s- I'm wrestling with this question. I'm... I suppose I have an intellectual answer, or more to the point, maybe along the lines of Fitz- what Fitzgerald says, how can our heart be broken and not be broken at the same time?

    25. JS

      Mm, mm.

    26. GM

      Because I think both are necessary.

    27. JS

      Yeah. And I, and I find everything all across the world that occurs, I feel like people's hearts are broken, but they break and ache for different things.

    28. GM

      Mm.

    29. JS

      And I think that that's why the words of Fitzgerald resonate so strongly with me.

    30. GM

      Yeah.

  9. 56:31 – 1:07:11

    Can I Continue to Grow?

    1. GM

      I'll be 80. You know? I mean, talk about-

    2. JS

      Did you say 80?

    3. GM

      Eighty, yeah.

    4. JS

      [laughs]

    5. GM

      Yeah. I know it's a big number.

    6. JS

      You're doing great.

    7. GM

      Well-

    8. JS

      It's amazing

    9. GM

      ... well, do the numbers. I was born in '44.

    10. JS

      Yeah, yeah. I always forget.

    11. GM

      Yeah.

    12. JS

      I forget when I'm with you.

    13. GM

      Yeah. I mean, there's this expression. I've been thinking about this recently, this expression growing older.

    14. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. GM

      So we, we could just say being older or becoming older or getting older, but we say growing older.

    16. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. GM

      Now, that's an interesting phrase, isn't it?

    18. JS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. GM

      'Cause actually, as we get older, we shrink.

    20. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    21. GM

      So what are we talking about growing older?

    22. JS

      Mm.

    23. GM

      Well-

    24. JS

      Mm

    25. GM

      ... because growth-

    26. JS

      Mm-hmm

    27. GM

      ... being an emotional and spiritual process, that continues. That can continue forever.

    28. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. GM

      So for me, it's not a matter of I'm good, but I can be better. It's a question of can I continue to grow?

    30. JS

      Mm.

  10. 1:07:11 – 1:09:39

    Gabor's Wish For Humanity

    1. JS

      to end with, uh... I'd love to hear from you what your wish, your prayer, your hope, however you'd like to word it, for humanity is right now today at this time, if there's some words that come from your heart.

    2. GM

      If we could just wake up to our possibilities. You know the, you know the famous story of the Buddha where he's walking along the road and somebody sees him with his radiant face and, mm, confident gait, and he says, "Who are you, a god?" And the Buddha says, "No, I'm awake." And if only we could be awake to our possibilities. Like, in every conflict, on the deepest human level, it's so unnecessary. We could actually be a human race together. We could be, we could be that. We don't have to hurt ourselves. We don't have to hurt others. We don't have to take from them, demand from them. We could be. Th- this is actually possible for all of us, and it's that... It's possible for all of us as individuals a- and, and for all of us as, as, as creatures. Let's just wake up to our possibilities.

    3. JS

      It's beautiful. Gabor, thank you so much again for your time, your energy, your presence. And everyone who's been listening or watching at home, if you don't already, please do grab a copy of the book, uh, Myth of Normal, because our first and second conversations were very different, and I guide you towards the book for the deeper resources, the step-by-step guide. It's... I... What I try and avoid doing in these interviews is minimizing the amount of work it takes or oversimplifying what Gabor's beautiful work does in his deep books because I believe he and everyone else would want you to take those steps. So I, I wish you all the best in your journey of trauma, illness, and healing. And, uh, Gabor, I thank you for your work and your contributions today as well, and forever to humanity.

    4. GM

      Well, it's always so, um, peaceful to be with you, and, uh, believe me, these days I, I enjoy an oasis of peace, so thank you so much.

    5. JS

      Thank you so much. Thank you, Gabor. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

    6. GM

      Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable

Episode duration: 1:09:39

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