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Dr Julie Smith ON: Unblocking Negative Emotions & How to Embrace Difficult Feelings

Jay Shetty sits down with Dr. Julie Smith to talk about how we deal with our emotions. As a way to cope with difficult situations, we often attempt to block the negative emotions.

Dr. Julie SmithguestJay Shettyhost

Mar 7, 202253mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

50 min read · 10,209 words

0:00 – 2:23
Intro
1. JSDr. Julie Smith
  When you block emotion out, what you can end up doing is blocking them all out. So I'll often have people who get to therapy after years of doing that, and, and they feel numb. And they, not only have they managed to block out all these negative emotions so life is less painful in that way, it's almost become more painful because they've also blocked out their ability to feel joy or pleasure or love, and they start to question, "Gosh, do I love my partner?"
2. JSJay Shetty
  [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. Now, today's guest is someone that I've been following on social media for nearly the past couple of years now, and I have loved her content, the way she presents ideas that are hard to understand in simple ways through incredible props and demonstrations. I'm blown away by her ability to communicate difficult ideas with ease, simplicity, and practicality. I'm talking about the one and only Dr. Julie Smith, who's a Clinical Psychologist with over a decade of professional experience, having previously worked in the NHS with veterans and the MOD in addiction and crisis centers, and now in private practice. She's also an online educator and social media star, sharing bite-sized mental health and motivational videos online with a combined following of more than three and a half million. In November 2019, Julie launched her TikTok account to make her services and education about mental health more accessible. During the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Julie's audience on TikTok grew astronomically as young people related to the videos she was making about mental health and her advice to youths. Now, I am so excited, because in front of me I have her first amazing book that's out, called Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before? Everyday Tools For Life's Ups And Downs. I want you to go out and grab a copy. It's already a number one Sunday Times bestseller, a bestselling book. Please, please, please go out and grab a copy of this. Dr. Julie Smith, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.
3. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Oh, thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure. I've been really looking forward to it.
4. JSJay Shetty
  I know. We've been trying to make this happen for some time. Let's dive straight in.
2:23 – 5:08
The root of the biggest problems people are facing today
1. JSJay Shetty
  I want to understand what you saw as the greatest challenge of people that you were working with. When you looked at the root challenges of patients you worked with, clients you worked with, people you saw, people you spoke to, what are some of the biggest challenges that you think people are dealing with right now, when you look at the root? Not the symptoms, not the, not the leaves, but the root of the problem, the root of the tree.
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  You know, th- th- that root of the problem can be different for everybody, but certainly what motivated me e- to begin all of this kind of stuff and step out of the therapy room a little bit, um, was this sort of common theme of people coming along to therapy and, and expecting me to do something to them so that, so therapy was some sort of treatment that would be done to them, because they felt at the mercy of how they felt. And, and a lot of people h- didn't have the education, uh, about how their own mind works and how their own body works to, to feel empowered by, um, the idea that you can influence how you feel, that you don't have to be completely at the mercy of it. There are things you can do to help yourself. And, and often once people had that information, that was a real game-changer, because suddenly, hang on a minute, there are some tools I can learn that could help, and, and it doesn't have to be rocket science. It doesn't have to all be out of my hands. It's not something the doctor's gonna do to me. It's not this kind of spooky, you know, sort of magical thing that I can't do myself. Um, so I think that really sort of fired me up, that there was a lot of information and education that is often, um, provided in, within certain therapies anyway, um, that just is life-changing for people, because it enables them to, to take their health into their own hands a bit more and not feel that, that they're at the mercy of it.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, absolutely. I, I love that. I mean, that was such a great piece of insight, because I think we all secretly hope that there's gonna be someone out there who comes and solves all our problems, right? Whether it's a therapist or whether it's a partner or whether it's a friend or whether it's a mentor or a coach or whoever it may be, I think we all secretly hope that there's someone out there who's just gonna magically turn up and be our fairy godmother and sprinkle their magic dust, and all of a sudden our life's going to look different. And what you're kind of saying, which is the inconvenient, painful truth, is that well, actually, or actually it's a fortunate thing, it's a beautiful thing, is that actually it's all within your own control. You have the ability to make choices and habits and practices that can define
5:08 – 7:18
Why are we outsourcing our wellbeing?
1. JSJay Shetty
  that. Why do you think it is that we are looking to outsource our wellbeing or outsource our journey? Why is it that we're trying to say, "Fix me," or, "Solve me"? Where does that come from?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  I think it comes from sometimes not knowing, not knowing that there are things you can do, um, that, that help, and, and that I think there's a sort of culture around, um, needing to, to, to buy something to, that is going to, to f- you know, it's good marketing I think, you know? [laughs] That lots of companies are based on making you feel like there's something wrong with you, and they can fix it if you buy this product off them. And, um, but also mixed in with the fact that there isn't enough education around, uh, how your mind works and how you can manage your own health. We get a little bit of that around physical health, but nothing really in terms of mental health. And I kind of felt like, you know, all these people, once they were having the, some of these little bits of education that were really making this difference day to day, I was kind of thinking, "Why, why do people have to pay to come and see someone like me to find that out?" Because, you know, that's not, obviously some people come for full therapy, which, you know, is- Brilliant, and helps lots of people. But there were a lot of people that were coming along, and once they had the education, they were raring to go. They, that was enough. And, and so I, I kind of wanted to make that more available.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Absolutely. So for those of you who don't have the book in front of you yet, I know you will after this podcast, uh, Dr. Julie talks about everything from moods to motivation, to emotional pain, to grief, to self-doubt, to fear, to stress, to meaning, uh, all beautiful themes and topics. And we're gonna dive into a few of my favorites, uh, from when I received her book over the holidays. I really wanted to talk about mood, and I wanna dive in with you now. I think mood and a low mood have become such common experiences now, and the idea that we have certain days where we feel good, and there are certain days where we just feel bad and unmotivated, and we don't wanna get out of bed, and we don't feel like doing anything.
7:18 – 10:39
We are built to have fluctuating emotions
1. JSJay Shetty
  How do we, how should we be, be approaching those days or those weeks that start to feel like we're stuck, we're not moving, nothing's happening in our life? How should we approach that feeling and emotion?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Well, I think it starts with understanding that it's a normal part of being a human being. Um, and I think that's often something that holds us all back, is, you know, there's this sort of, um... I don't know if it was something that's been sort of pushed by, you know, social media or anything like that, but it's definitely online, is this idea that, um, that somehow our default is one of happiness and contentment, and anything outside of that means you're getting something wrong. Uh, which is just absolute rubbish, you know, that, um, human beings are built to fluctuate and, and emotions come and go. The, the pleasant ones come and go, and the unpleasant ones come and go as a part of that experience, and that's a normal. And, you know, if you, if you wake up and, and your mood isn't as you want it to be, uh, that can be caused by so many different things. You know, you might have not slept well. You might be dehydrated. You might, um, be dealing with something normal like grief or, there could be anything. Um, but if you wake up in that mood and then respond to that mood by telling yourself that you're failing at life because you're not as happy as everybody else, or, you know, look at that woman down the road who's always energetic and always enthusiastic, and she must never get a terrible mood like this, and what am I getting wrong? And, and we get into that narrative that, that pulls us further down that spiral rather than allowing us to kind of acknowledge this feeling is here, allow it to be present, and allow yourself to also then question what, what could be causing this? So what are my needs? Are there any needs that are unmet, and can I meet those that could help? Um, and you know, it, sometimes it is just a matter of, of doing what you can to, to meet those needs if, if you can identify any, and then allowing that to, to calm naturally.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, no, I, I like the idea of meeting your needs because I, I think what's really interesting about what you just said is that so many of us are almost judging ourselves or critiquing ourselves for running out of energy. And it's almost like looking at your phone on 3% and hating your phone for being on 3% battery life. And it's like, well, no, a phone is either gonna be 100 or 90 or 80 or 70, and it's gonna get to 3, or it's gonna get to 1 if you don't recharge it. And it's the same thing with us. Like you're saying, that as humans, our emotions fluctuate. Our moods fluctuate. We're either at 100% or we're at 3%, but we can't start hating ourselves at 3%. We can't start judging. We have to go, "Okay, I need to stop and recharge. I need to stop and take a moment." And that's where your question of, "Okay, what are my unmet needs?" It's almost like, okay, well, what do I need to do to charge me? That feels like the right way to think about that. I think one of the biggest challenges, Dr. Julie, you've probably seen is that people try and avoid low moods. We're trying to avoid feeling bad. We're trying to avoid
10:39 – 16:04
The struggle of blocking negative emotions
1. JSJay Shetty
  feelings. What happens when you try to avoid an emotion or when you try and avoid feeling? What actually happens to us?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah. Well, it can get quite extreme, you know, if we, um, we have these kind of blocking behaviors. So if a, if a feeling, um, is aversive in some way, whatever it might be, um, uh, if we, if we, as soon as we start to feel it or even see signs of it that it might be approaching, we, we put in those blocking behaviors. And so, I don't know, you might find yourself with your head in the fridge looking for something to, to eat, or you might find yourself, um, you know, on Netflix just watching program after program, or, or drinking or whatever that blocking behavior is for that person, or maybe staying really busy at work, um, and trying to convince yourself, you know, that you've got all this energy or whatever. Um, but when you do that, when you, when you block emotion out, what you can end up doing is blocking them all out. So I'll often have people who get to therapy after years of doing that, and, and they feel numb, and they, not only have they managed to block out all these negative emotions so life is less painful in that way, it's almost become more painful because they've also blocked out their ability to feel joy or pleasure or love, and they start to question, gosh, do I love my partner? Um, you know, I, I'm not interested in all the things that I used to find pleasurable. And, and there's this kind of numbness, and people imagine that... I mean, there's this sort of, you know, emotions have this bad rap, don't they? Where, um, they're apparently this kind of irrational mess that you need to stay away from in order to be a highly functioning individual, um, rather than it being a, a part of how we work. And so, you know, by, by pushing all of those away and trying to stay away from them with the idea that we'll somehow be kind of logical beings, actually being devoid of emotion, uh, y- strips away your life in terms of your sense of meaning or your enjoyment from life. And so that idea that, you know, if you block one emotion- Well enough, you'll also block a lot of others, and then, and then you can really start to struggle. Um, so a lot of what we do in therapy is, you know, changing our relationship with emotion is, is looking at how can we allow emotional experience to come and go, and not only accept it, but also welcome it? You know, how could you allow fear or low mood or sadness to be there and let it be welcome in the present moment? I mean, that's just a bizarre, um, kind of state of affairs, right? How, you know, we've never been taught to do that. Um, you're taught to kind of blun- brush it off and, and pretend it's not happening and make it go away. Um, and so it's a, it's a kind of new experience. And, and I'm- honestly you, you'll know a lot about this yourself with, you know, u- u- using, uh, sort of mindfulness to be able to practice sitting there and allowing experiences to come and go.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, no, I, I think the biggest thing I took away from what you shared just there is this idea of blocking behaviors that seem like very normal behaviors, and they seem very easy and accessible, and they feel like they make sense. They look normal because a lot of people do them, and then when you really break it down and you go, "Oh yeah, wow, that's a blocking behavior. I'm actually trying to just numb myself from feeling things." And I love what you said where you were like, "Well, actually, if you numb yourself from feeling something, you potentially could numb yourself from feeling anything," [laughs] like everything. A lot of other positive emotions as well. And so by weakening your ability to feel pain, you actually weaken your ability to feel joy. And, and that idea is really fascinating because that, as a block, is a block that we all know we don't want in our life. Um, that, that's, you know, I, I've loved that you've given me that reflection today because I, I, I wo- didn't necessarily connect the two in that way. When, when you talk a lot about motivation in the second chapter, and I'm glad that you touched on motivation because I know, and I'm sure you get this too, I get so many DMs on a daily basis or messages saying like, "I'm not motivated. What do I do? How do I find motivation? Uh, I don't feel any motivation today." And one of the sections in your book that I loved is called How Do You Make Yourself Do Something When You Don't Feel Like It? And it's really funny because someone asked me recently, they said, "Jay, what do you think's the greatest skill you can have as a human?" And I really thought about that. I was like, what is the greatest skill that you could have as a human? And the idea that came to my head was the greatest skill you can have as a human is being able to do something that's good for you even when you don't feel like it because that is the crux of life. Like, the amount of days that I wake up and actually want to go to the gym are very, very few. But do I feel amazing after going to the gym? Yes. I, meditation's been a part of my life for a long time, so it's changed. I have a healthy relationship with meditation, but there are still days when I don't want to meditate, or I'm too tired or exhausted, or I'm too, I'm, I'm too bored to go to sleep early. And so I'd rather think that maybe if I stay up a bit late I'll be more entertained. And so I find that things that are good for me feel hard in the beginning but feel great afterwards, and things that are bad for me feel easy in the beginning, but they're really bad for me afterwards.
16:04 – 23:21
Some days, you just don’t feel motivated
1. JSJay Shetty
  Talk to us a bit about how do we get good at doing things when we don't feel like it? Because I am completely with you. I, I think that's, like, an undefeatable skill that we all need.
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Uh, yeah, absolutely. And, and I agree with what you were saying there. You know, it's, uh, that, that sort of motivation feeling, that sort of elevated energy, um, inspired feeling that you get is the feeling you get as you walk out the gym, not as you walk in generally.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  And, and it's, it's after action and effort you then think, you know, I, I n- I never sort of feel like going to the gym either. Like, but when I, when I come back from the gym, I think, "Oh, I should do this every day. This is great."
5. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
6. JSDr. Julie Smith
  And, and, uh, I think it starts with recognizing that pattern, doesn't it? Um, recognizing I know I'm not going to always feel like it bec- not because I'm, again, it's not about failure. It's not about, you know, I think a lot of, um, stuff online teaches people, you know, you, you've just got to be motivated every day, and if you're not, then what are you doing? And, and actually, humans don't work that way. Motivation, you have to treat it like any other emotion. Some days it will be there, some days it won't. So you can't rely on it to be there, um, to help you reach your goals. So, you know, if you've got goals that you've set around your own values and what's really important to you, um, you have to then find a way of, of being able to keep that consistent even when you don't feel like it. So you can't make the decision to act only based on do I feel like. A bit like cleaning your teeth, right? So y- you clean your teeth every day. You never consider whether you really want to or not. It's just something that you do because you consider yourself a, someone who looks after their dental hygiene, right? And it's, um, you know, it's, so it's just part of your day. It's non-negotiable. And, and, and you can kind of work with it a little bit like that. But when you see emotion as something that can come and go, um, y- you can then acknowledge that you can tap into other reasons for doing the thing that you want to do. Say, "I don't feel like going to the gym today, but I've set myself a goal to increase my fitness because it's important to me that I am fit and healthy for my children as they grow up. I want to be able to play with them and, and live a long life to be with them for as long as possible," and those sorts of things. So you're tapping into your values system and being absolutely clear on why you're doing that thing. Um, and even if it's, gosh, you know, if it's I have to go to this job that I hate, it might be because you're gonna put food on the table at the end of the week for your children, or you're gonna keep a roof over your family's head, and, you know, you can tap into those sorts of values even if it's something that, um- ... isn't, you know, something that you would, you know, benefit from sort of personally or in terms of your kind of health or wellbeing. Um, you know, life can be really tough in that way. But you can tap into, well, why is it that I'm doing this really, really hard thing that I'm hating? Oh, it's because actually, yeah, I'm the breadwinner and, and it's important to me to, to look after my family and stuff like that. So you can kind of tap into the values and, but also we, um, something that's taught in a, a therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, DBT, um, is often taught to people who feel overwhelmed with emotion, and then, um, respond to that emotion in a sort of high-risk or unhealthy way. And so, um, what you're, what you teach people is, is a skill that they call sort of opposite action. So, and you use mindfulness to, to help people recognize that difference between having an urge to do something and then acting on it. So, you know, your, your f- the trouble is, y- you know, your different aspects of your experience are all experienced at once. So it's like, I think it's like weaves in a basket. You have, you have your thoughts, and you have your emotions, you have your physical state, and you have your urges to do or not do something, but you don't experience them as separate. You know, you don't describe it in your head. You, you experience this whole thing in one, and so y- you're often acting based on urges, and there's no gap in between. And so you kind of use, um, a, you know, a mindfulness ex- uh, um, practice to help just widen that gap so that you can experience an urge. And in the book I talk about just, yeah, the silly game that I used to play with my sisters growing up, where we would hold Polo Mints in our mouths, and it was a competition to see who could not crunch the mint, because it's just, you, you just can't do it. It's, um, it's impossible, right? And, um, and it, and I didn't realize it at the time, but what we were doing there was practicing acting opposite to an urge. Um, you know, you have this urge to crunch down on the mint, but you learn that actually I can experience that urge and not act, and I can even do the opposite to that. You know, you can, so you get this moment to choose and, and, you know, you'll be an expert on this yourself, but the, you know, mindfulness helps to open up that, that gap that allows you to then choose whether you're going to go with an urge or go opposite to it. You know, so if you wake up and the urge is to pull the duvet over and switch your phone off and shut the world out for the day, uh, you get this choice, "Okay, do I go with this and/or do I act opposite to it?" And, and often you have to make that decision pretty quick, um, to kind of, you know, really kind of make the most of the moment. Um, but it's, it's a great thing. You know, you can use things like the sort of the mint, uh, crunching competition to, to just kind of practice being aware of that and, and i- in kind of lighthearted ways so that you're more skilled at doing it when you most need it.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Thank you for sharing those two, two massive insights. The first one was you talking about how we shouldn't rely on motivation. I, I thought that was such a great way of phrasing it, that we're reliant on motivation, and we can't be reliant on any feeling because we f- we're gonna feel different every day. And the problem is, we're trying to create the same feelings every day. And you're spot on that when I think about my life, I don't feel the same today recording this episode with you as I felt the same recording my last episode with the other guest. I feel different, and so I can't rely on how I feel. I have to rely on why I'm here and why I'm doing this and why I'm trying to serve my community and why On Purpose listeners want me to show up at my best, and I want to show up for them. And, and that's what's driving me, not, not how I'm feeling right now. And so you're almost being driven by something else. And then coming to what you just said is that difference between the urge and the ability to take that space and time to respond. And in the spiritual texts, when we studied that about the mind, the three words were thinking, feeling, and willing. So it being like the dif- the, the, the gap between thinking and willing, like, from having the thought to actually doing it, you, you have that gap that can, that you can adjust and edit and change. And, and you're so right that we almost need to create that gap in areas of our life where we're not trying to practice, if
23:21 – 26:28
Getting stuck in the same cycle
1. JSJay Shetty
  that makes sense. So what I'm trying to say there, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Dr. Julie, is that if you're trying to wake up early in the morning, don't practice trying to create this gap between the urge and pulling the duvet over in that moment. Practice it outside of the moment so that then you can bring it into that area, whereas if you practice in that area, chances are your default action's gonna come across. Does that make sense? And how could you build that conditioning in another area of your life?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah, absolutely. I would say practice with things that feel easy and manageable just to just create some repetition in doing that. And actually, you know, nobody will be starting from scratch either. You know, there will be times when you use that skill, but you just haven't recognized that you've used it, and sometimes I think becoming aware of when you use it and it's successful, um, helps you to, to feel more positive about the fact that you can do it. So, um, I don't know. Yeah, I've got young children, so, you know, uh, sleep deprivation is, you know, torture, and e- the, you know, your baby will wake up for the sixth time in a night, and you've got to be up at 6:00 for work, and, and you hear them cry, and you think, "I just cannot get out of bed one more time." And so your body is telling you, "No, I can't do this," in a very powerful way, but you do it. And, and you do it because you have a set of values about the kind of parent you want to be. And, you know, and so- You know, in those t- instances, for example, you will be doing things, or it doesn't even have to be at night, it could be anything. You know, you might not feel like making another sandwich or, um, you know, buying another load of ice creams or whatever it is, for your family. But you, you do things because you maybe have a set of values around that, or something's important to you about that. And, and so it's really useful, I think, to kind of sit and think about the times when you already do that to success, um, so that you can really tap into that and recognize that therefore it is possible to translate it. And like you say, practice in a, in a way that is enjoyable and manageable and, you know, even with the, the polo thing or, um, you know, kind of mindful eating and stuff like that, you know, where you kind of pause and, and experience, uh, food before you allow yourself to then, um, before eat it, for example. Or just kind of lighthearted things that feel easy. Because like you say, the first time you do it, it probably won't go well, and then you think, "Oh, this doesn't work," move on, and then you're stuck in the same cycle.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. I, I love that. Have you actually done the video, have you done a video on the mints experiment? I, I think it's such a great one. That makes-
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  No.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, I know
6. JSDr. Julie Smith
  No, I haven't.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. It would be, it would-
8. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah
9. JSJay Shetty
  ... it'd be good to see you do it with your sisters again. That would be, that'd be amazing.
10. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Uh, I, I, I love that one.
12. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah.
13. JSJay Shetty
  I, I think it's, uh, it's a-
14. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Or maybe you can come and collaborate when, when you come to the UK-
15. JSJay Shetty
  There we go
16. JSDr. Julie Smith
  ... we'll do one together.
17. JSJay Shetty
  That's what we'll do. That's what we'll do. We'll, yeah-
18. JSDr. Julie Smith
  [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  ... you can, we can do the test together. I love that.
20. JSDr. Julie Smith
  [laughs]
21. JSJay Shetty
  One of, one of the other things, Dr. Julie, actually, this just came to mind while you were talking, that you spoke about, was that we just feel this rush of everything at the same time.
26:28 – 30:11
The difference between thoughts, feelings, and emotions
1. JSJay Shetty
  Can you help my community today and audience today to understand the difference between thoughts, feelings, and emotions? Because we feel them all, or we experience them all, is a better word. We experience them all at the same time, and like you said, we don't label them effectively. We don't even know the difference, and we use the words interchangeably today, and that's probably not healthy either because then when we artic- I think language is just so important, and the way we articulate how we feel or an emotion, if it's incorrect in the sense of how it works as a system, we're already setting ourselves up for more difficulty. So could you just break down for us the three, and how to know the difference when we experience them?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Sure. So, um, certainly I would say, um, some people can tap into more easily one over the other. So some people will always be able to identify what they think, but can't sort of label feelings or something like that. Or some people will be really tapped into how they feel physically in their physical state, um, but won't necessarily recognize thoughts, and that's normal, and that's okay. In terms of thoughts, I often talk to people about it's that, you know, the description, the narrative that's going on in your head, the way you talk to yourself in your head, or the, the s- different sort of words that pop into your head, or images even. Um, so it's that kind of, you know, how you talk to yourself in your head, whereas emotions are, are, are feelings and sensations that you have. And, and then you kind of, we often separate that from sort of physical sensation in therapy. So we'll talk about your physical state, so you know, where you feel things in your body and how your body feels at, at certain times. And then behavior being, um, I often split behavior into urge and action, for reasons that we've been just talking about, to get people to recognize that you might have an urge to do something, but you might not do it. Um, and so, you know, you know, actions are what we do or don't do, um, at any given point. But you might be able to elaborate on those yourself, actually. I mean, how would you kind of describe emotions?
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, no. The difference that I've at least, um, understood, and, and by the way, I, I love what you said. The way I've heard it being explained is that feelings are our experiences of emotions. So emotions are something that is chemically, biologically, physically happening, and then how we feel about what is happening is our feeling. So for example, if my body is, uh, feeling exhausted, if my body is tired, and the emotional experience would be, you know, low energy. The emot- the emotional experience would be, uh, fatigue, et cetera. We know what's happening with the chemicals in that space. Then my feeling is, "Oh, my God, I'm so exhausted. I'm shattered. I'm destroyed. I'm..." And that's a feeling. That's a story that I'm adding to that. And now, as you said, the thought is the narrative, which I love that way of describing thoughts. My narrative is now, "Oh, I should have taken better care of myself. I should have slept earlier. I should have done this. I, I could have done that. I'm such an idiot because I..." Right, right, right? That's, that's that thought narrative. So that's how it actually connects from, from how I've understood it. Uh, and it's made sense to me because I think a lot of stuff is happening biologically and chemically that we're then adding an emotional feeling and layer to that isn't helping because we get stuck in our head with something that's actually quite physical, if that makes sense.
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah, absolutely.
30:11 – 35:12
Stress and anxiety are part of the same threat response
1. JSDr. Julie Smith
  And, and often I get that when, a, a really common question I get is, you know, what's the difference between stress and anxiety? And often the answer that I, I give for that is often around y- they're actually part of the same physical reaction. You know, you have this one threat response and, and you only have that one threat response. So the, what your body is doing is essentially the same, but we conceptualize it differently. So, you know, you, and I als- often talk about this idea of, um, stress being, let's say you, you allocate yourself, you know, 10 minutes to go off and go to the post office and post a parcel, and you get there and there's this huge queue, and, and you're stood there, you know, tapping your foot thinking, "Oh, no, I'm gonna be late for my meeting. I only allocated 10 minutes for this." And, and, and that kind of pounding heart and, you know, the sweaty palms and that increase in the level of your alertness- ... is your stress response that's enabling you to sort of increase your alertness so you can reprioritize if you need to, so that your brain can start problem-solving and working out, do we ditch this and, and get to the meeting? Is that more important, or we- do we do this? And, or how can we, you know, skip the queue [laughs] or something. And, um, so you kind of, that would be stress. We would conceptualize that threat response as stress. But if it was anxiety, then it's more likely to be based around, um, sort of something like fear, so, uh, some sort of, um, a threat, physical threat to your safety, for example, or a psychological threat. Let's say, uh, y- it might turn into anxiety if you were really worried about, um, this, you know, maybe it's not a meeting, maybe it's a big conference, and walking in late would mean you would felt humiliated or, and that would be a psychological threat, right? And so, uh, you might feel anxious. And so it's, it's still that same threat response kicking off, but you're conceptualizing it slightly differently.
2. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Yeah.
3. JSDr. Julie Smith
  And when I was researching for the book, actually, um, I found some, some great research around, um, sort of, uh, emotion vocabulary and granularity, so the ability to feel something and give it a label. And it really doesn't matter what that label is. It doesn't matter if it matches everybody else. It helps if it matches o- everybody else's, but it doesn't have to. The more labels you have for different feelings that you have, uh, the, the better your outcome's in terms of how you're then able to deal with it, because you're, you're just giving your brain a little label that says, "Okay, I recognize this. I know what to expect from this."
4. JSJay Shetty
  Exactly. I, I love that, and I'm so glad that you brought that up, because I think that diagnosing something is what makes it easier to deal with. If you c- if you don't give something a label, you're now dealing with uncertainty again. And I think with a lot of anxiety and stress, we have repetitive thoughts and repetitive feelings. And not, it's not necessarily a new thing. I- a lot of the time it's the same thing being triggered by a particular event, a particular person, a particular place, and therefore being able to label it, as you said, allows you to feel a bit of comfort with it. Like, I know that anytime I go on stage, I will always feel a sense of nervousness. Like, I will always feel nerves no matter how many times I've spoken on stages to tens of thousands of people, whatever it is, I always do. And as I got more used to that, I just started to realize, that's what happens when I care. And I was like, "That's what happens when I care. That's what happens when I really am genuinely present with that feeling of, this is important. This is meaningful." And when I sit into that and I breathe that way, and I have my breathing practice that I do, my mindfulness practice, it, it happens every time, but I already know it's gonna happen, and so now I'm not surprised, and it's not something new. Whereas, like you said, if you don't label that, I label it as care, if you don't label that with a word, now it's like, oh no, this is happening all over again, and I don't know what to do with it, and I don't know why it's happening. Uh, so I, I think that's a really great insight. One of, one of the things you go into this book which I thought was really beautiful and really important is grief and loss. And of course, so many people have lost so many people in the last couple of years. Uh, I lost two really deep people in my life, and not to COVID-19, but I couldn't see them because I couldn't travel back. So I lost one of my spiritual mentors, who I've spoken about on the podcast before, to stage four brain cancer, and he passed away after many years of, of suffering with that. And then I lost one of my closest friends, uh, who I lived as a monk with. He, he was still a monk, and he passed away to cancer as well, and I couldn't go back and see him because, uh, I couldn't travel back to the U- uh, to the UK, where, where they were in hospital. And so grief is something that I think is one of the hardest things to talk about. I even often get messages from people saying, "Well, what do you say to your friend when they've just lost someone?" Uh, you know, what, what do you say? Like, what do you text? Like, okay, you can text your condolences and your love, but like, what do you say?
35:12 – 42:57
How to better handle someone’s grief
1. JSJay Shetty
  What, as a therapist, what is the healthiest thing to do when your friend has lost someone? How, how should you talk to them? What is something that is useful, comforting, and helpful at that time? I think a lot of people struggle with that.
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah. And, and I've done some videos on this, actually, 'cause it's a really common question, and, and I feel like, you know, for everybody who's struggling with grief or something else, there are this circle of people around them who really care and are then struggling with the idea of getting it wrong and saying the wrong thing. And, and I think a lot of people worry so much about saying the wrong thing that they don't say anything at all. And certainly I've done that before myself. And, you know, the i- I think we have to maybe get away from the idea of, um, having specific things that we must say or must not say, and instead expressing, being okay with expressing how we feel. So, you know, if something feels like a shock, you know, say that. Label it. Um, and if you're worried about what to say or what not to say, say that, too, you know? Like, "Wow, I'm, you know, I'm feel so sad for you. This is awful. How, I, I really want to be there for you, um, but I have no idea how or what to say." Um, and, and then, you know, if you go with how you feel in terms, you probably want to know how they're doing, and so ask those questions, and, and maybe make those q- you know, if you want that person to feel able to open up, maybe ask open questions, you know, that aren't gonna, um ... Open questions are questions that invite an answer that's longer than a yes or no answer. So, you know, if you ask, "Are you okay?" someone will go, "Yeah, fine." Um, but if you ask, "How are you doing?" then someone is invited to kind of talk at length and things like that. So if you're wanting to start a conversation about that sort of thing, then those are great ways to do that. But really, I would, you know- You can kind of turn yourself up with what's the right thing to say, what's, what's meaningful or profound or going to change how they feel, and essentially you're not gonna change how they feel. What you can add to the mix is letting them know you care for them, and that their distress matters to you, and that you, you want to get it right. So, you know, it's okay to ask someone, "How can I support you through this? What do you need?" Um, because often those people will have an idea about what they need. Um, and, and often it's just checking in, isn't it, and knowing someone's there to support you. I mean, what are helpful things that people have said to you?
3. JSJay Shetty
  You know what was really interesting is that I, I don't think, I [laughs] I don't think a lot of people did say anything to me. Um, and, and not that I, I needed them to. I, I'm a, I'm an interesting person with certain things, like I find when I go through pain or stress or anxiety, I like sorting it out myself, so I'm not much of a, I'm not much of a talker when it comes to certain things, a- apart from if I'm working with a coach or a therapist or, or, or someone who, who I trust is helping me make sense of something. Um, and so, but I, but I, I agree. I mean, I agree with everything you just said. I, I think that the biggest thing that I think you said is the problem is when we speak to someone in pain, whether they're in grief, whether they've just broken up, whether they've been through a divorce, or whether they're experiencing anxiety, the biggest problem is we're trying to say something that we hope will change how they feel, which is not going to happen. It's too much pressure on you, it's too much pressure on them, it's just not going to happen. And I remember when I first started coaching, and I'm sure you feel the same way as a therapist, and I don't want to speak for you, but I know that I used to carry that pressure around that I had to say something profound in every meeting, and that every connection you have with someone, you have to drop these pearls of wisdom that are gonna solve their life and be like this opening magical doorway. And you just realize that now you're not even listening to them because you're working so hard to come up with this false piece of insight that's gonna help someone, and that actually if you just sat and listened and, like you said, asked open questions and were just present, that's what that person needed more than ever. And I think, I'm segueing a little bit, but even in our romantic relationship, in our friendships, the problem is we're always trying to say things that we hope will change how people feel, and the truth is, we don't have that power, and trying to have that power creates so much pressure and burden on you that you feel so weighed down by it that, like you said, you don't say anything, or you try and say something and then you're upset that it didn't change how they feel. So that to me has been the biggest takeaway from, from what you just said, and hopefully I've, I've just illuminated some of my thoughts on that.
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Yeah, I think, and it's interesting actually how, how things work in therapy. You know, someone might go to therapy for the first time and imagine that they're gonna take this feeling in, and the therapist will say something that will make it go away. Um, and actually what you do as a therapist is sit with them in it and y- uh, you know, you kind of, if someone's, let's say someone's, you know, in a hole, um, I think Brene Brown did this, um, example really well, uh, when she did a sort of example of the difference between sympathy and empathy. And, you know, instead of kind of standing looking down in the hole and saying, "Wow, that looks terrible," i- in therapy particularly what we do is get down in the hole with them and say, "Yes, this is, this is really tough. How are we gonna work on this together? And, you know, what's next?" And so, y- you know, th- there's this real, I think when someone is grieving, it's okay to just be with them through your pain, no, th- th- through their pain. So there is no way that you can remove that pain, there's no way that you can bring the person back or make it disappear or fix it. But you underestimate the power of simply walking alongside someone through it and allowing them to just feel heard and cared for. Nobody really wants to be told what to do. They want to feel heard. They want to feel that they matter and that how they feel matters, and that in itself has such a profound impact over time. Um, but you know, building that kind of trusting relationship with someone is huge. So yeah, take away those expectations to be some kind of, you know, healer or, you know, fixer-upper and, and just work on being a really good friend to someone.
5. JSJay Shetty
  I want to segue a little bit, Dr. Julie, with what we were talking about, the idea of relationships and romantic relationships and love and breakups, because a lot of the emotions we feel, a lot of the feelings we experience are based on our relationships around love. And so whether it's the feeling of losing love, never getting love, never finding love, not being lovable, not being enough, not knowing how to love, like there is a lot of anxiety and stress around that, as you're well aware, and as, you know, in our work we come across a lot. When, when you look at that, when you look at the feeling of, "I am trying to find someone to solve the void I have within myself," or the idea that, "If I find someone, then I'll be complete. If I find someone, then I'll be whole," that ch- how do you work with some- and I know that it's case by case, and of course I'm giving a broad question, but
42:57 – 47:57
Start taking responsibility for your happiness
1. JSJay Shetty
  with that, how do you work with someone who you notice that that is a trait that they have? Like, how do you work with that kind of an individual who has that kind of a trait?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Well, I, I guess you, you work with someone based on, um, the idea that if they haven't met that person yet- That you can't guarantee they're gonna come along, so you have to start taking responsibility for your happiness. And, and while actually, you know, getting in relationships can be really helpful for people's wellbeing, and, you know, the, the changes that, and the development that you go through by being in a relationship can be wonderful and really healing in many ways. But you don't ever want to put the responsibility for your own healing or your own happiness in that other person's hands. So I would say, you know, in working with someone, um, who was maybe kind of dealing with that idea, that they were sort of waiting for someone to come along i- in order for them to then be happy, um, it would really be about looking at growing your life as it is now and making that more meaningful for you, more purposeful based on your own values and, and really looking at that relationship with the self. So looking at how, you know, uh, if someone sort of feels unloved, for example, um, how are they treating themselves? You know, what, are they, are they not being caring and loving to themselves or treating themselves well? And, and so a lot of therapy would be looking, so you know, reflecting on that relationship. I mean, there's a lovely, uh, therapy called cognitive analytic therapy. It's CAT for short, and that looks at how, um, the, the relationsh- the early relationships you have in life, so with parents and siblings, can then be reflected in our relationships that we have as adults. So you might have, um, been in a sl- you know, no family situation is perfect, so there will have been situations that weren't ideal at some point. And as a child, you would have worked out how to get through those and how to survive them psychologically with certain safety behaviors, for example. Um, let's say a parent was sort of inconsistent with love, you might have learnt to be a real people pleaser to make sure that you, you made sure they felt okay so that you could feel acceptable. And then you get into relationships as an adult, and that habit of being that people pleaser continues perhaps, but then causes you to do that to your own detriment. So maybe you're working so hard on being astute to everybody else's feelings and making sure that everybody else is happy that actually it's making you ill because you're not looking after yourself, for example. So and, and those therapies can be really helpful in looking at, where did this cycle come from, you know? And if it's something around looking for somebody out there so that you can finally be happy, then you can really break that down to where, where's that coming from and, and how can I fix that cycle in a different way so that I'm not dependent on this, um, this person coming along and fixing it.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, that's so great. So often we're fixing the wrong, wrong end of the cycle, right? We're just trying to solve the, the, the current feeling, the emotion, the situational problem right now, and you're like, "Well, actually, let's look at where the cycle started, and how that mindset got formed, and how that behavior got formed, and how that desire for validation got formed. And actually, if we solve that, then we can, we can see this completely differently." And that, I mean, to me, that's, that's really where it all has to go. I- I've seen so many bad habits in myself that I picked up years ago in my childhood, and beliefs and bad habits, and that now you're, like, living them through as an adult, and you look at yourself and you go, "Oh, wow, like I just thought this was normal," but it's, it's not, and it's not healthy. And so how can I work on that now? And, and actually tracing it back gives you a sense of separation from it as well because you go, "Oh, this isn't me. This isn't mine. This isn't, this isn't who I am. This is something I picked up along the way." And that distance is really helpful to say, "This isn't me. This is not, this is not all about me." Uh, doesn't mean you're blaming it on someone else, but you are saying that, "Let me distance from this so I can actually, so I can actually deal with it and work through it." Uh, when you wrote this book and you titled it beau- beautifully, Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?, uh, where do you think mental health and wellbeing are going over the next few years? You know, when I think about things like Web3, the metaverse, uh, when I think about obviously social media is continuing to grow, when I look at even people like yourself who've, you know, obviously been able to communicate these ideas so phenomenally well through TikTok, you know, we, we both know that social media can be an amazing tool to reach out to people, to connect with people, to serve people, to help with people.
47:57 – 51:06
An activity that allows you to stop and reflect on an experience
1. JSJay Shetty
  Uh, but when you see people navigating their mental health and wellbeing moving forward, what do you think are sustainable daily practices that we need to implement in order to live in a world that is technologically accelerated and advanced and isn't turning around?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  It's gonna sound really boring, but, um, a bit of self-awareness, which can come through things like journaling, something quite simple like journaling experience that allows you to stop and reflect on experience. And, you know, that's a, a smaller scale of, of a, a little bit of what happens in therapy. And, and you know, we were talking about those cycles then, and the way you become able to tackle a cyc- cycle that you're stuck in is by first becoming aware of it. You know, if you, if you're not aware of what the problem is, y- how do you even begin to think about solutions? And, and so, you know, even with this kind of fast-paced world, and everything's online, and, and our attention is being kind of stolen from us left, right, and center, the ability to step back and focus on you and your life for a moment is really a victory. And, and so I'm a, I'm a sort of big, um, advocate for sort of journaling and things like that. And even before I- Sort of did any clinical training. I, I look back and when I was sort of growing up, any time that I was struggling with different emotions that I couldn't make sense of or a situation that was kind of troubling me, my... I'm, I'm like you, I'm not a big kind of talker or I'm, I'm very introvert and I spend time alone. My thing would be write it down, and if you write for long enough, you can begin to sort of make more sense of a situation. And that's really what we do in therapy when we're talking about those cycles. We literally map them out. So we write out what happens then, what happens next, what happens next, and then it comes back around. So you, you literally get yourself a, a map in front of you, and by doing that, you get this separation. So, you know, i- in the age of kind of social media growing or, or all the problems that might come with that, you're only able to tackle that and make conscious choices about what you want for your life if you are able to step back and consider the problem first.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. I, I'm, I'm totally with you on that, and that, that feels and resonates so deeply. Um, for everyone who's been listening or watching today, we've just dived into some of my favorite chapters, but as I said before, there's chapters on motivation, emotional pain, grief, self-doubt, fear, stress, and a meaningful life. Uh, and what I love about the book is that every section has a beautiful summary with things to think about, things to reflect on. Um, there's, you know, like this whole section here which breaks down certain introspection and reflection questions. So, uh, Dr. Julie, I'm so grateful we got to spend this time together. I highly recommend everyone goes out and gets a copy of Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before?: Everyday Tools for Life's Ups and Downs. I can't wait, uh, to meet you and connect with you in person, and we're gonna do our mince challenge or, or something similar.
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  [laughs]
5. JSJay Shetty
  Uh, but, uh, thank you for
51:06 – 53:02
Dr. Julie on Fast Five
1. JSJay Shetty
  sharing this with us. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These are the Fast Five, uh, where you have to answer every question in one word or one sentence maximum. So Dr. Julie Smith, are you ready?
2. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Okay.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Okay. Question number one is what is the best advice you've ever received?
4. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Uh, to enjoy myself alongside anxiety.
5. JSJay Shetty
  What is the worst advice you've ever received?
6. JSDr. Julie Smith
  To calm down. [laughs]
7. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs] How would you describe your current purpose?
8. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Touching people's lives in a, in a positive way with the skills that I have.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Beautiful. Uh, question number four, what's something you used to value that you don't anymore?
10. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Probably say m- material things. I'm not sure I ever really valued material things, but, um, we'll go with that one. [laughs]
11. JSJay Shetty
  Okay, great. And fifth and final question, if you could create one habit that everyone in the world had to follow and do every day, what would that habit be?
12. JSDr. Julie Smith
  Journaling.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Nice. Beautiful. Everyone, Dr. Julie Smith. Uh, if you're listening or watching this episode, make sure that you tag us both on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter, on Facebook, so that we can see the nuggets of wisdom and all of that which you learned from this episode. I want to see all the takeaways. I want to see what you've, what's resonated with you, what stuck with you, what you're applying, what you're practicing. Uh, Dr. Julie Smith, I'm so grateful for your time and energy. Thank you for doing this at, uh, 7:00 PM on a Friday night in England, and I'm so happy that we got to connect finally. All the best with everything. Congrats on everything, and I really do look forward to meeting you. Thank you so much.
14. JSDr. Julie Smith
  And likewise. I'm really grateful for, for the chance to chat with you. It's been really, really lovely.
15. JSJay Shetty
  [upbeat music] If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here. I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book, Think Like a Monk, from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make sure you order today.