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Jay Shetty Podcast

The 3 SIGNS You're Dealing With A Narcissist & How To SET BOUNDARIES! | Dr. Ramani & Jay Shetty

Today, I am talking to Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, CA, Professor Emerita of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles, and the Founder and CEO of LUNA Education, Training & Consulting.

Dr. Ramani DurvasulaguestJay Shettyhost

Dec 12, 20221h 13mWatch on YouTube

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Chapter summaries

Guest Introduction and Dr. Ramani's Path to Narcissism Research
Jay Shetty introduces Dr. Ramani and her work, then asks when narcissism became her focus. She describes research on entitled patients in healthcare, clients with similar relationship stories, her first book, YouTube, and her anger at invalidation of survivors.
- •Her research began around 2003-2004 on demanding, entitled patients in HIV healthcare settings
- •Clients lost self-blame when told narcissism is unlikely to change
- •Should I Stay or Should I Go? grew out of emails she kept writing to overwhelmed clients
- •Anger at the mental health world's invalidation of survivors drove her public work
- •Her mission is helping survivors be seen and find their voice again
Why Narcissism Is Only Now Being Discussed
Jay asks why narcissism is discussed so much now. Dr. Ramani gives a historical view: the concept is recent, the diagnosis dates to 1980, and survivors long blamed themselves. She also notes emotional abuse is still not treated like physical abuse.
- •The term entered the literature only in the late 1800s and early 1900s
- •Narcissistic personality disorder appeared as a diagnosis in 1980
- •She cites Sapolsky's Behave on aggression and herding versus farming cultures
- •Older clients say it was not until recent years that their marriages had a name
- •Emotional abuse is still not given the same weight as physical abuse
Narcissism vs. Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Dr. Ramani defines narcissism as an antagonistic personality style and explains how NPD differs as a diagnosis. She stresses that diagnosis requires distress or impairment, that people rarely seek help for narcissism itself, and that one bad act or bad week is not narcissism.
- •Narcissism is a maladaptive personality style under the umbrella of antagonism
- •Diagnosis requires subjective distress or social and occupational impairment
- •People with narcissistic traits often enter therapy for other reasons, such as a failing marriage or substance use
- •Personality is like a psychological fingerprint that doesn't easily change
- •A single incident like cheating, or a bad week, doesn't make someone narcissistic
How People Develop Narcissistic Personalities
Jay asks how people end up with narcissistic personalities. Dr. Ramani describes temperament as a genetic seed, then attachment disruption, early adversity, and overindulgence, and how each pathway shapes adult presentation.
- •Temperament is a partly genetic seed visible in babies and toddlers
- •Anxious or avoidant attachment is common in narcissistic personalities
- •Early trauma is associated with narcissism in some cases but not most
- •Being told you're more special than other kids is an overindulgence pathway
- •Neglect origins look more sullen and aggrieved; spoiled origins look more grandiose
Why Narcissists Seem Attractive and Why Signs Are Missed
Jay asks why people notice narcissism only late and whether it can be attractive. Dr. Ramani explains that good days keep people hooked, red flags emerge like pixels over one to three years, and survivors try to change themselves because the personality is rigid.
- •Narcissistic people are not cartoon villains; charm, confidence, and novelty-seeking keep partners hooked
- •Good days and bad days alternate like extreme weather
- •Clarity often takes one to three years, and cognitive dissonance delays it
- •Sensitivity to criticism can trigger rage after an ego injury
- •Narcissism is resistant to change, unlike flexible, agreeable personalities
Holding Multiple Truths and Defining a Healthy Relationship
Jay asks for a healthier way than weighing good against bad to make sense of someone. Dr. Ramani introduces multiple truths as a test of mindfulness, explains why brains resist inconsistency, and lists what a healthy relationship looks like.
- •Multiple things can be true at once: a wonderful courtship and regular gaslighting
- •Brains are wired for consistency, so inconsistency feels tense
- •People can cherry-pick good or bad facts depending on whether they want to stay or leave
- •A healthy relationship is kind, flexible, respectful, collaborative, and invested in the partner's growth
- •Culture can define health by job, money, religion, or looks instead
Love Bombing and Testing the Waters
Jay asks how to avoid or navigate love bombing. Dr. Ramani says it can be more addictive than drugs because it meets an unmet need, and suggests knowing what it is and slowing things down to see how the other person reacts.
- •Love bombing addresses a deficit of feeling seen and valued
- •Knowing what it is helps you prepare, like preparing for a hurricane
- •Asking to slow things down tests the waters
- •A narcissistic person may respond by doubting your commitment
- •A self-aware person would receive the request without an ego injury
What Gaslighting Really Is
After noting gaslighting was named word of the year, Dr. Ramani explains its origin and defines it in three steps: denying reality, telling the person something is wrong with them, and repeating it over time. She distinguishes it from lying and describes its toll as emotional abuse.
- •Gaslighting was named Merriam-Webster's word of the year, which moved her to tears
- •The term comes from a play and film about a husband manipulating his wife
- •Denial alone is not gaslighting; it also involves pathologizing the person, repeatedly
- •Gaslighting depends on trust and can happen in families, workplaces, politics, and societies
- •Lies are shut down by evidence; gaslighting is a lie wrapped in an invalidating bow
Dealing with a Gaslighter and Anchoring in Who You Are
Jay asks what someone could do differently to avoid being affected. Dr. Ramani says never tell a gaslighter you know, advises not to defend, engage, explain, or personalize, and stresses identity work, journaling, and therapy. She also says one person can turn the gaslight off for another.
- •Never tell a gaslighter you know what they're doing, because they'll double down
- •Knowing who you are and what you stand for is the foundational work
- •Journaling and therapy help restore self-trust
- •Her technique is don't defend, engage, explain, or personalize, like an inner bodyguard
- •Believing and validating others can un-gaslight them
"I Can Change Them": Realistic Expectations and the Choice to Stay
Jay asks about realistic expectations for someone who thinks they can change a narcissistic partner. Dr. Ramani says they don't change, shares the rare hopeful exceptions, notes about half of people stay, and describes her tiger's cage metaphor and nonjudgmental support.
- •She has seen about 10 hopeful cases among thousands of clients
- •Clients who left therapy often returned years later saying nothing changed
- •About 50% of people stay for reasons like finances, children, religion, culture, or love
- •The tiger's cage metaphor describes needing to test the relationship yourself
- •If staying, develop other sources of support and don't expect empathy to grow
Individuation and Protecting Your Authentic Self
Dr. Ramani describes healing as individuation, using the image of a tree shadowing plants beneath it. She explains how to stay safe in the relationship by limiting authenticity, using neutral topics, and treating restraint as self-care and an act of rebellion.
- •Individuation means getting out of the shadow of the narcissistic person
- •Being authentic in safer spaces while guarded in the relationship
- •Neutral topics like sports, news, and weather keep interactions safe
- •Restraint is strength and self-care, not being less than
- •Taking change off the table leads many to set real boundaries
Healthy Boundaries and the Cost of Staying
Jay asks which other boundaries help people who stay due to pressures. Dr. Ramani advises not engaging in the same way, expecting baiting, knowing your true north, and calming down afterward. She and Jay also discuss adopting defensive patterns and compassion fatigue.
- •Letting go of the dog-with-a-bone fight, since narcissistic partners may bait you when you stop being gaslightable
- •Know what you hold sacred and when you'd choose to engage
- •Calm down after depleting interactions to avoid getting sick
- •Jay raises people adopting similar tactics to defend themselves; Dr. Ramani likens it to stealing food when hungry
- •Compassion fatigue can leave empathy depleted
Misplaced Hope, Survivors' Healing, and Closing
Jay recommends Dr. Ramani's books and asks for her final thoughts. She says hope should be placed in oneself rather than the relationship, that survivors can retain depth and joy, and that she doesn't believe anyone is defined by this. Jay wraps up with her podcast, Navigating Narcissism.
- •She is tired of the loss of human potential in these relationships
- •Hope is misplaced in the narcissistic partner and belongs in your own untold story
- •Survivors can develop depth and a different appreciation for laughter
- •Nobody is defined by this experience
- •Her podcast is Navigating Narcissism; two books recommended

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