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Jay Shetty Podcast

World Leading Relationship Therapist: Why Your EGO is RUINING Your Relationship! | Esther Perel

Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel is back. Esther is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on modern relationships.

Esther PerelguestGreat Minds Jay Shettyhost

Jan 15, 20241h 31mWatch on YouTube

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CHAPTERS

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Chapter summaries

Is the Relationship Worth Saving? Holding Contradictions
Jay Shetty asks how to know if a relationship is worth saving. Esther Perel says no decision is perfectly certain and that the answer lies in holding contradictions, since every choice carries loss and grief. She also explains why breakups can feel like addiction withdrawal.
- •Perel says a decision with zero doubt is a setup
- •Leaving means grieving what was good; staying means grieving the path not taken
- •Complex questions don't have binary answers
- •Intense heartbreak can feel like withdrawal and is compared to addiction because it occurs in the same brain centers
Accountability: Changing Yourself First
Asked what it takes to save a relationship, Perel puts accountability near the top of her list. She says the hardest question is "What can I do?", and that because partners are interdependent, changing yourself shifts the dynamic.
- •Perel prefaces that there is no one-size-fits-all answer after forty years of work
- •Accountability means not asking the other person to do all the changing
- •Partners are interdependent, like a figure eight
- •Staying, listening and paying attention can change the pattern
Fighting About vs. Fighting For: Power, Trust and Value
Jay shares the dishes example of two inherited operating systems clashing. Perel reframes it: it's not what you fight about but what you fight for, usually power, trust and value, and she says many power struggles are really defenses against fear.
- •Jay's story about washing dishes before or after hanging out
- •Underneath fights are issues of power, trust and value
- •One partner often fears losing the other, the other fears losing themselves
- •Power struggles are often a defense; look a level below the surface
- •Letting a partner influence you can be an expansion, not a loss of identity
Curiosity and the Fundamental Attribution Error
Jay raises the loss of curiosity in romantic relationships. Perel calls curiosity the most important shift, the opposite of reactivity, and describes the fundamental attribution error, where our behavior is circumstantial and our partner's is characterological. She says taking responsibility is liberating.
- •Curiosity is on the other side of reactivity
- •Fundamental attribution error: mine is circumstantial, yours is characterological
- •We assume we're more complex than our partners
- •Taking responsibility is liberating because you can only change yourself
The Blame Game: Bureaucracy Fights and Competing Tough Days
Perel tells of a recent argument with her husband after a frustrating phone call, and says couples blame each other instead of allying against a frustrating situation. Jay describes topping his wife's tough day with his own tough week, and Perel explains how this competition dismisses the other person.
- •Perel's car argument with her husband over how to deal with bureaucracy
- •Frustration and helplessness get projected onto the partner
- •Jay's habit of topping his wife's bad day
- •Topping someone tells them they have nothing to complain about
- •Acknowledge what was said, then say you feel that too
Making Your Partner Feel Important
Jay describes warning his wife before stressful weeks. Perel says the step that changes things is thanking the partner for being there, which enables your busy week, so they become part of the story rather than on hold.
- •Jay pre-emptively tells his wife about stressful weeks
- •Apologizing still says "my life is very important"
- •Thanking a partner reinforces interdependence
- •It shifts the power dynamic with a small tweak
When Your Partner Shuts Down: Play, Movement and Other Vocabularies
Jay asks what to do when curious questions are met with shutdown. Perel advises changing tactics and being less direct, using games, books, movies, songs, walking and parallel activities like fishing to open conversation.
- •If the same approach keeps failing, change tactic
- •Use less on-the-nose questions, like a card from Where Should We Begin?
- •Songs, movies and characters can voice what people can't say
- •Walking, hiking and fishing make talking easier
Doing New Things Together: Risk, Mystery and Play
Jay describes dates like Go Ape and a surfing lesson where both were novices. Perel adds that these involve risk and playfulness, and cites Eli Finkel on how new experiences bring excitement and desire, while keeping mystery alive next to a familiar partner.
- •Jay's ropes course and surfing lesson with his wife
- •Both being novices reveals a vulnerable side
- •Finkel: new things, not just comfortable ones, create aliveness
- •Partners remain somewhat mysterious
Breakups: Craving, Mutual Endings and Who Instigated
Jay asks what to do with the craving after a breakup. Perel describes a story from her podcast of a man who left his wife yet could never leave her fully, and says who instigated a breakup matters, that breakups are often more mutual than they appear, and that regret and liberation can fall on either side.
- •Perel recounts a Where Should We Begin? episode about a man who left but couldn't fully leave
- •Who instigated the breakup changes the experience
- •Breakups are often mutual even if only one person says it
- •The person who pushed may regret most; the hesitant one may feel liberated
Betrayal and Rebuilding Trust After Infidelity
Perel describes betrayal as shattering your sense of reality and value, and urges not isolating. She lays out three stages for rebuilding trust after an affair, remorse, being the vigilante of the relationship, and meaning-making, plus a vision for the future, and stresses the story doesn't begin at discovery.
- •Betrayal shakes trust in your own perception; lean on other relationships
- •The biggest victory is the ability to love again
- •Stages: guilt and remorse, the vigilante, and exploring meaning
- •Perel's example of a man naming places he shared with the other person
- •An affair can end one relationship and begin the next with the same person
Modern Dating: Choice Overload and Romantic Consumerism
Jay raises how technology and abundant choice affect dating. Perel discusses romantic consumerism, soulmate expectations combined with checklists, reduced tolerance for uncertainty, and the still face experiment as a picture of ghosting. She suggests meeting people through activities and social settings.
- •People seek the perfect and are no longer happy with the good
- •Soulmate expectations meet checklist dating
- •Predictive technology lowers tolerance for uncertainty
- •The still face experiment compared to ghosting and breadcrumbing
- •Do an activity or bring dates into social settings
Chemistry, Love Story vs. Life Story, and Settling
Perel distinguishes chemistry for a love story from chemistry for a life story, and says curiosity and a "page-turner" feeling matter more than instant combustion. She argues that "I can do better" breeds restlessness and feelings of not being enough.
- •Love story versus life story require different skills and values
- •Curiosity, wanting the next conversation, signals a good track
- •There are many plots; Hollywood sells one
- •Feeling you're settling reflects romantic consumerism
- •The constant pursuit of more leaves people feeling not enough
Long-Term Relationships: Longer and Lonelier
Asked about the value of long-term commitment, Perel says it depends on culture and that marriages now last far longer. She argues relationships could be more diverse and communal, since one person now supplies what a village once did.
- •Perel works cross-culturally; no single answer
- •Long-term has doubled in lifespan
- •We've been creative with family forms but not romantic couples
- •Today's relationships are longer and lonelier
- •Few couples meet the high expectations, per Finkel
Jay's Proposal Story, Arranged Marriage and Why Passion Fades
Jay tells of his Instagram-inspired proposal where his wife developed hives from the horse-drawn carriage, and reflects on how little he knew her. Perel discusses arranged versus romantic starts, how Jay's wife keeps him humble, and Terry Real's definition of self-confidence.
- •Jay's proposal was a show of ego, not personal
- •Perel cites research that satisfaction can rise in arranged marriages
- •His wife challenges him with love and humor
- •Terry Real: confidence is seeing yourself as flawed yet holding yourself in high regard
Ego, Influence and Building a Home Together
Perel asks whether people today see accepting a partner's influence as a threat to identity. Jay says many people lack self-awareness entering relationships, and shares a poet's image of combining bricks from each home. Perel adds that we are often drawn to someone with traits we are trying to get away from.
- •Accepting influence is seen as being a pushover
- •Self-awareness can vary at any age
- •The poem about building a new home from both partners' bricks
- •Jay and his wife have agreements, not rules
- •We're drawn to partners with traits we try to escape
Perel's Course and the Where Should We Begin? Card Game
Perel describes her course Turning Conflict into Connection, coming out October 10. They then play cards from her game Where Should We Begin?, with Jay and Perel answering prompts and Jay thanking her.
- •Course: eight videos with a workbook, on estherperel.com
- •Game prompts: a party, and changing something about how you were raised
- •Jay wishes he had known of more careers growing up
- •Perel says the podcast lets her bring therapy to the world outside her office

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