World Leading Relationship Therapist: Why Your EGO is RUINING Your Relationship! | Esther Perel

Esther Perel 0:00 We are often drawn to a person who brings characteristics that we are trying to get away from. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story, or are you looking for chemistry for a life story?

Jay Shetty 0:11 [applause] She's a psychotherapist, author, and host.

Esther Perel 0:13 A round of applause to welcome Esther Perel. [applause] How do you turn conflict into connection? It's not what you fight about, it's what you fight for.

Jay Shetty 0:22 How do you know if a relationship is worth saving? Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The number one health and wellness podcast.

Esther Perel 0:55 Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:55 Jay Shetty.

Esther Perel 0:56 The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:01 How do you know if a relationship is worth saving?

Esther Perel 1:06 Shall I stay or shall I go, is one of the fundamental questions. And here's the thing, even if you decide to stay or even if they decide to go, you may do so while at the same time having a part of you that actually holds the other side. If you think that the decision is a hundred percent perfect, no doubt, no hesitation, then it's a setup. If you leave, you need to be able to leave while experiencing the loss of some things that may have been good, even if it's just a dream of what was. If you stay, you have to be able to grieve the part of you that will never know what it would have been like if you actually left. So the answer is not in the extreme determination, it's in the ability to hold inherent contradictions. It's a complex question, and complex questions don't have easy binary answers.

Jay Shetty 2:05 Mm. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because we crave a binary easy answer. We want it to feel...

Jay Shetty 2:14 We often seek complete clarity when we're trying to make a decision, rather than accepting that a decision is followed by-

Esther Perel 2:22 Consequences

Jay Shetty 2:23 ... consequences and a number of different feelings. You used the word grief there.

Esther Perel 2:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 2:27 And I've seen research that shows how when someone breaks up with you or when you break up with someone, you almost crave them like we crave an addiction that may even be unhealthy for us at times. Why do you use the word grief, and can you walk us through both of those losses of identity that you spoke about on either end?

Esther Perel 2:47 So grief is because I think every choice comes with loss. The consequence is the choice you didn't make. And even though you think this is the right choice and this is what I must do, the grief may be the fact that you didn't, you were not capable of making this thing work, or that you had such high hopes and it didn't materialize, or that you have wished that you didn't make some mistakes that you made, or that you wish you had left sooner. There's lots of different ways, but there is no choice that doesn't have loss and therefore some grief attached to it, and that is the nature of the beast. That does not mean that you didn't make the right choice. In terms of heartbreak, it's a different part. Yes, some people experience heartbreak with such an ache, with such a sense of longing and such a sense of fracturing on the inside that they are... that their longing becomes obsessive, that they are trapped in rumination, and that it exi- experienced like a withdrawal. That is not all breakups, but that is the extreme kind of breakup, which has been compared to an addiction because of the s- intense sense of withdrawal and because it takes place in the same centers in the brain.

Jay Shetty 4:02 Mm. Let's say someone does wanna save their relationship.

Esther Perel 4:06 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 4:06 They want to make it work. What does that take on a deeper level from that individual? What have you seen over the years of what it really takes? I think we often think of saving a relationship as like, "Let's do more date nights. Let's spend more time together. Let's do more this." But what have you seen it really takes from a human?

Esther Perel 4:24 So look, I work with relationships f- for forty years. These are questions that I can answer in multiple ways.

Jay Shetty 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 4:31 So I'm gonna answer it in one way with you today, and somebody's gonna say, "But you didn't talk about that." So I just wanna preface that because there isn't a one size fits all. And when I'm gonna highlight something now with you, 'cause it's the first thing that came into my mind when you asked, what can we do to actually repair our relationships, strengthen them, fortify them, solidify them, enliven them? One of the first thing I often think about is accountability. It's actually not asking the other person to do all the changing. Somebody's gonna tell me, "But what if you've done that and it hasn't made any difference on the other side?" So I just want that to be mentioned. In general in relationships, we often get to a place where we think you need to change. Here, I'm gonna tell you what you could do differently that would make this relationship better, and the hardest thing to do is to actually say, "What can I do?" Because if you change, it is quite sure that it will also create change on the other side because we are interdependent parts. In a relationship, I start to do something which makes you do something, which makes me do something. It's a figure eight. But if I start to do something else, sooner or later you cannot continue do the same. If I no longer answer you when you say something There's a good chance that at some point you're gonna stop saying it because you don't get the reaction that you've been used to get. So there's no better way to change the other than to change ourselves. But that's not 100% thing. It's just a good principle to keep in mind. What is it that I can do differently? What's one thing I could choose that I know would improve the relationship 'cause I've heard you or 'cause I know us, and if I don't instantly walk out every time, but I actually stay and I listen and I pay attention, will that create something, rather than thinking about, you know, all the good reasons why I should get out or leave in that moment? So this accountability piece r- is very high on my list, but there are 10 other things about what makes us work on a relationship to improve it.

Jay Shetty 6:44 Mm. And you talked about there how, you know, trying to change the other person isn't necessarily the focus, but for so many of us, that seems to be the problem. The problem seems to be the other person's behaviors, their attitude, their approach to life, maybe their aspirations. I hear a lot of people say things like, "They don't dream enough. They don't dream... They dream too little," right? Like it's a-

Esther Perel 7:09 Or too much. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 7:09 Too much, right. That's it, yeah. I hear some people say they dr- they don't dream enough; they dream too much.

Esther Perel 7:14 Yes.

Jay Shetty 7:15 I hear people say, "Oh, they have too many friends." "They have no friends." Right? I see people at both ends of the spectrum, we always seem to have issues with how our partners live. And what I've learned, at least in my own personal reflection, and I've found is that for a long time in my relationships, I often projected the way I lived onto my partner, and I-- we so strongly believe that the way we live is right, the way we were brought up is right, that we want our partner to kind of follow suit. And I always give this very small example from my own home, but in my house, we used to eat, hang out, and then at the end of the night, we'd wash the dishes. In my wife's home, they used to eat, wash the dishes, and then hang out. And so when we got married and we started living together and when we were having friends over or whatever it may be, in my mind, we're gonna eat, we're gonna hang out, and then we're gonna wash the dishes. In my wife's s- uh, mind, she's thinking, "We're gonna eat, now we have to clean up, make sure everything's clean, and then we can hang out." And something as little as that can cause so much-

Esther Perel 8:21 Friction

Jay Shetty 8:21 ... friction and bad communication, and feelings of, "Oh, you don't care about me and you don't love me and you don't appreciate me, or you don't value the work." And there's so much that comes from something, and that's just a very small example. But it's interesting to me that in that scenario, we both had not created a new belief system for our relationship, but were operating based on two old belief systems that we'd simply adopted. Uh, walk us through whether you agree, whether you disagree, whether you can edit that. Reveal more to us about, I find so many of our challenges exist because we project our operating system onto someone else rather than creating one with them.

Esther Perel 9:02 I like the way you call it the operating system.

Esther Perel 9:05 So I'm gonna take a sentence that you-

Jay Shetty 9:06 Please

Esther Perel 9:07 ... highlighted and start from there. You said, "Here we were, fighting about what's the right moment to do the dishes." But in fact, it... what we were talking about is, "You don't care. You don't see me. You don't appreciate me. You want it your way." And what you're highlighting here is something that I've actually talked a lot about in a new course that I'm doing on conflict, which is exactly that. How do you turn conflict into connection? And one of the things I say is that it's not what you fight about, it's what you fight for.

Jay Shetty 9:39 Mm.

Esther Perel 9:40 You were fighting for recognition. You were fighting for power and control. You were fighting for respect. You were fighting for trust and closeness. Underneath the fight, there are usually three sets of issues that we are actually fighting for, and that is power, trust, and value.

Jay Shetty 9:59 Mm.

Esther Perel 10:00 So you don't value me. You know, I worked on this dish, on this cooking. I've made this nice meal. I prepared, I tried to be kind to your friends, and you don't value me.

Jay Shetty 10:09 So true.

Esther Perel 10:09 Once you've understood that what is the hidden dimension that you are actually fighting for, the fight, the dishes, the when to do them, becomes a lot more clear. A lot more clear, rather than it's not just I'm imposing my belief on you, and I want it to do my way because my way is the right way. That's... You may think this way, but the question is, what happens when you have to confront yourself with someone who is different? I mean, everything about relationships is about straddling sameness and difference, you know? And when you are a couples therapist, it's very typical that people come to you, they're like a drop-off center, right? They tell you, you know, "Here, my relationship. Here's my partner. Let me tell you what's wrong with them, and maybe you can fix them, and I'll help you."

Jay Shetty 10:55 [laughs]

Esther Perel 10:56 [laughs] "I'll be, I'll be your adjunct."

Jay Shetty 10:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Esther Perel 11:00 You know? On how to make my partner understand why my family's way of doing things is the best way of doing things. It's a very good way, and so then the question is, if you have to change your mind, does that mean that it's a loss of your identity?

Jay Shetty 11:15 Mm. Mm.

Esther Perel 11:15 Or can you actually experience that as an expansion, as something that you let in? How do you let the other person influence you without being constantly in a defense of your, you know, "This is my flag-

Jay Shetty 11:27 Mm

Esther Perel 11:27 ... and here are my values or my operation system"?

Jay Shetty 11:30 Yeah, I, I, I really, really relate to what you're saying, and I love how you've broken it down to what we're fighting for versus what we're fighting about. I think that's brilliant, and that's from your master class, right?

Esther Perel 11:41 No.

Jay Shetty 11:41 No?

Esther Perel 11:41 This is from my own new course-

Jay Shetty 11:43 Oh, this is from your own new course

Esther Perel 11:43 ... that I am coming out with-

Jay Shetty 11:45 Got it, got it, got it, got it

Esther Perel 11:45 ... very soon, and that is really about letting people have a very different view and set of skills for handling conflict.

Jay Shetty 11:53 Got it.

Esther Perel 11:53 Like this one.

Jay Shetty 11:54 Yeah.

Esther Perel 11:55 You know, at first it was a nice thing. You didn't fight about. You just said, "We do it." "Oh, that's so interesting." "No, let's do it now." "No, let's..." And then slowly, because you couldn't come into an unified agreement, it became a point of contention.

Jay Shetty 12:07 Mm.

Esther Perel 12:08 And then that point of contention became the go-to every time you need to talk about your backgrounds, your values, your style, your priorities, your way of doing.

Jay Shetty 12:19 I think we feel so robbed, or at least when I speak to people about this, they feel so robbed, as you said, of their identity. But also, as you said, people feel robbed of their power, that if I give in-

Esther Perel 12:31 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 12:31 ... to this other person-

Esther Perel 12:33 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 12:33 ... my partner may be the more powerful one in the relationship.

Esther Perel 12:37 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 12:38 Or if I concede, then in the future when we're making decisions-

Esther Perel 12:42 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 12:42 ... they're going to think I'm going to concede, and often that is the case, that people get into relationships because they think the other person is submissive or conceding to them or agrees with them on everything they say. And then one p- one day that person goes, "Wait a minute, I didn't realize I just gave up everything I care about for you." And so how does one learn how to practice that humility and giving up of power, or is the solution a unified agreement, as you called it just there? What are we, what are we trying to unravel? How do we do that? Because I think that-

Esther Perel 13:15 But you just betrayed yourself in the question.

Jay Shetty 13:18 Okay.

Esther Perel 13:18 Your whole question is framed in power terms: concede, acquiesce, give in, loss of self-

Jay Shetty 13:26 And that's how people feel

Esther Perel 13:27 ... loss of power. Yes, some people feel this way. That is one frame for some people to enter into a relationship.

Jay Shetty 13:35 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 13:35 But if I actually change the word power, I could go like this. In every relationship, you will find that there often is one person who is more afraid of losing the other, and one person who is more afraid of losing themselves.

Jay Shetty 13:52 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 13:54 One person more afraid of abandonment and rejection, therefore more likely to acquiesce, to pacify, to placate, to say yes until maybe one day not, and one person more afraid of suffocation, and therefore they fight for their ideas, their ways of doing it, the timing of the dishes. And that is less about power. That is more about the nature of connection.

Jay Shetty 14:18 Mm.

Esther Perel 14:19 The majority of power struggles in a relationship are not power struggles. Power is the defense. The control battle is the way people are defending, trying to get something for something else that they are worried about.

Jay Shetty 14:32 Mm.

Esther Perel 14:33 It's the surface behavior. You know, some people, when they're afraid, they fight, but the issue is not fighting. The issue is that they're actually afraid, and they're trying to deal with their fear by gaining control.

Jay Shetty 14:44 Mm.

Esther Perel 14:45 So don't just go for what you see, 'cause what you see isn't necessarily just what it is.

Jay Shetty 14:50 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 14:50 Go always looking at the, a level below. Otherwise, you're gonna have a lot of this.

Jay Shetty 14:55 Yeah. Exactly. And so you're encouraging those people that feel that way to look at that layer deeper, the context of why their partner-

Esther Perel 15:04 Why do you think that giving in- [laughs]

Jay Shetty 15:05 Yeah

Esther Perel 15:06 ... makes you lose your identity? Where did you get that idea? Who did you have to fight with that you had a sense that if you don't go all the way and with fists... That's the motion of fighting, right? It's not this, uh, you know.

Jay Shetty 15:20 Mm.

Esther Perel 15:20 But you enter the relationship with that, and yet you live it with this.

Jay Shetty 15:24 Mm.

Esther Perel 15:25 So what happened to you that is making you continuously interpret every situation as a fight, as a power struggle, as, uh, "I have to stand up and hold on because if I give in, this is the beginning of a slippery slope."

Jay Shetty 15:39 Mm. Yeah.

Esther Perel 15:40 That's a frame. That is not the truth. Now, maybe you picked somebody with whom this is sometime what is going to happen, so then you ask this person, "What happens if you don't get your way?"

Jay Shetty 15:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 15:52 For you, the question is, what happens if the other person gets their way? And for you, the question is, what happens when you don't get your way? Can you still feel confident even if you don't trample somebody?

Jay Shetty 16:02 Yeah,

Jay Shetty 16:03 and I think the questions you're ans- asking that we all need to reflect on for ourselves, I almost think they're as important to ask our partners, like, to understand what happened to them, like, why they're in that position-

Esther Perel 16:14 Absolutely

Jay Shetty 16:14 ... why they get afraid.

Esther Perel 16:15 Of course.

Jay Shetty 16:16 And I, I think that curiosity is so often lost in romantic relationships, where we don't understand why someone is the way they are. We just assume that it's about us. Like, we make it personal. We don't recognize that they have a whole history of relationships, of family, of parenting, of experiences that have made them that way, and maybe they are dealing with a deep fear or-

Esther Perel 16:38 Ah

Jay Shetty 16:38 ... a deep challenge. Does that resonate?

Esther Perel 16:40 Yes. You know-

Jay Shetty 16:41 Yeah

Esther Perel 16:41 ... this thing about curiosity-

Jay Shetty 16:43 Mm

Esther Perel 16:43 ... is the most important shift we try to make.

Jay Shetty 16:47 Mm.

Esther Perel 16:47 Curiosity about yourself-

Jay Shetty 16:48 Mm

Esther Perel 16:49 ... and curiosity about your partner or friend or coworker, whoever the other is. Curiosity is on the other side of reactivity, so everything dealing with conflict is about helping a shift from reactive to reflective and curious. But more interestingly, what you reminded me of is a thing we, I talk about in the course that's called fundamental attribution error. If you are nasty or reactive or bullying me a bit or even just simply if you're late, it, uh... Whatever you're doing, the, the tendency is to think that when you do this, it's because you have a negative personality.

Jay Shetty 17:30 Mm.

Esther Perel 17:30 But if I am nasty or short or, you know, cutting a little bit, then it's because I had a tough day.

Jay Shetty 17:37 Mm.

Esther Perel 17:38 Mine is circumstantial-

Jay Shetty 17:40 Mm

Esther Perel 17:40 ... and yours is characterological.

Jay Shetty 17:42 Mm.

Esther Perel 17:42 And the loss of curiosity in relationships is because we tend to think that we are more complex than our partner, and that's what makes us not ask, "What is your story with this? Why do you need to get things your way all the time? Why do you have to drill it in until I finally say, 'Whatever you want, dear,' you know, 'We'll do it your way'"? Because unless you got it your way, you think that you are, you know-

Jay Shetty 18:07 Mm

Esther Perel 18:07 ... on the floor.

Jay Shetty 18:08 Yeah. I think people... And Esther, you've, I mean, you've done this for decades now. Like, I'm sure you feel that what we're really addressing here, which I'm so happy that we've kind of gone in this direction-

Esther Perel 18:18 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 18:18 It's, it's beautiful, and I'm so happy that we're there, that this idea of Are you curious about yourself and why it's happening and what happened to you? Are you curious about your partner and what happened to them? Are you not making it personal? Are you thinking about working as a team, building unified agreements? All of this language is so positive, and I genuinely believe that what we've just covered is so often missed in relationships because we're so busy pointing the finger and pointing the blame and pointing the responsibility that as you started off with, there's a lack of accountability, and that being such a brilliant shift to even just start with-

Esther Perel 18:53 It's liberating.

Jay Shetty 18:54 Yeah.

Esther Perel 18:55 It's actually liberating for people to say, "Let me check myself for a minute."

Jay Shetty 19:00 Mm.

Esther Perel 19:00 The fear that people have is, "Why me? Is it my problem? Why are you blaming me?" No, no, no. Taking responsibility is liberating because the only thing you can really change is you.

Jay Shetty 19:11 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 19:11 There's a lot more freedom to do something about yourself than to go look for your partner on the other side.

Jay Shetty 19:15 Mm. [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:16 You know?

Jay Shetty 19:16 I don't, I don't-

Esther Perel 19:17 I had a moment like that-

Jay Shetty 19:18 Please

Esther Perel 19:18 ... with my [laughs] recently. So I was, uh, on the phone, and I was a little a- agitated talking to banks and people and administrating bureaucracy, which gets me agitated.

Jay Shetty 19:30 [laughs] Me too.

Esther Perel 19:30 And, uh, and then my partner said... You know, you too? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 19:33 Yeah. [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:34 And then my partner says, then my husband says to me, "I have a headache." I said, "What happened?" He says, "You've been so yelling here next to me in the car," and, and I'm like, "You know, I'm trying to solve these problems." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 19:46 [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:47 And you can't just say to me, you know, that's really frustrating. These people were, like, keeping you on the phone for an hour. You think I wanted to be on the phone for an hour with this? And I just feel like a little lack of empathy. Please, a bit of sympathy, some support. And on top of it, I'm get scolded now for my attitude?

Jay Shetty 20:04 [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:05 [laughs] And I sat there, and I began, you know, brooding. And I said, "Okay, I'm not gonna talk to you." You know, I thought, "If you don't wanna... If you, if I'm that unpleasant, well, then I'm not gonna say anything." And then I sat in there, and I'm thinking, "I'm married almost 40 years." I'm thinking to myself, "Am I gonna go do this one again?"

Jay Shetty 20:22 [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:23 You know? Why am I doing this? Why do I feel so upset? Why don't I just simply say I can imagine that it was unpleasant to? So he says to me, "Why don't you say something about the fact that it's really annoying to sit next to someone who is so agitated?"

Jay Shetty 20:37 [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:37 And I'm thinking, "Why doesn't you say something about how frustrating it is that I need to be so agitated?" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:44 [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:45 You know, and this could have turned into a real fight.

Jay Shetty 20:48 Yeah.

Esther Perel 20:48 And luckily, a little bit of humor takes us out of this very quickly. It's like, the, it became like, how many w- minutes are we gonna do this?

Jay Shetty 20:56 Yes, yes, yes.

Esther Perel 20:58 You know?

Jay Shetty 20:58 And where was that coming from after all this time? Like, like you said, you've been together for four decades. You love each other. Like, you trust each other. You, you've worked through so many of these things. What do you think it is that we're still fighting for in that moment?

Esther Perel 21:09 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 21:09 Like, what, what is it?

Esther Perel 21:10 Because-

Jay Shetty 21:10 Because it doesn't go away. You're right. Like, it doesn't-

Esther Perel 21:12 We have two answers.

Jay Shetty 21:13 Yeah.

Esther Perel 21:13 I mean, we have, we would have very different answers to your question-

Jay Shetty 21:16 Mm

Esther Perel 21:16 ... first of all-

Jay Shetty 21:17 Mm

Esther Perel 21:17 ... just so you understand.

Jay Shetty 21:18 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:18 I will tell you, I sometimes, m- you know, hear him talk in a situation like this, and he's very, "Could you explain to me why this is..." And I'm thinking, "Tell them that this is not right," you know?

Jay Shetty 21:30 [laughs]

Esther Perel 21:31 And, and he says, afterwards, he hangs up, says, "I was very angry on the phone."

Jay Shetty 21:35 [laughs]

Esther Perel 21:35 And I'm like, "Excuse me." [laughs] That is go- you know. So I don't think I get much further by-

Jay Shetty 21:41 Mm

Esther Perel 21:41 ... being more, you know, confrontational than actually I don't think I'm any more effective. I think these-

Jay Shetty 21:47 Mm

Esther Perel 21:47 ... situations are frustrating whichever way.

Jay Shetty 21:50 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 21:50 But we get into an argument over which of our approaches is the better one to talk with the bureaucracy.

Jay Shetty 21:56 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:56 It's ridiculous.

Jay Shetty 21:57 Mm. Yeah, exactly, and it's, it-

Esther Perel 22:00 So he thinks I'm, I should be nicer.

Jay Shetty 22:02 Right, right, right.

Esther Perel 22:02 And I think he should be a little more- [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:04 [laughs]

Esther Perel 22:06 ... direct.

Jay Shetty 22:06 And yeah, yeah, and, and what are you saying? Are you saying that neither approach matters, and we're arguing about something insignificant, or is it-

Esther Perel 22:14 No.

Jay Shetty 22:14 No.

Esther Perel 22:14 Here's the thing. You're in a situation where you are bound to not necessarily be successful.

Jay Shetty 22:20 Yes.

Esther Perel 22:20 You're bound to experience some helplessness.

Jay Shetty 22:23 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 22:23 It is frustrating. The situation is frustrating. Instead of dealing with the frustration of the situation, you start to blame the other person for the fact-

Jay Shetty 22:33 Mm

Esther Perel 22:33 ... that they didn't get to the result that you wanted.

Jay Shetty 22:36 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 22:37 Instead of this kind of situation where you go back week after week with another person on the phone, automated thing.

Jay Shetty 22:43 Yeah.

Esther Perel 22:43 You know, and instead of allying together against the situation, it, you start to project onto the other, "Why are you not competent so that I don't have to feel so helpless?"

Jay Shetty 22:55 Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Wow, yeah, exactly, and, uh, I can relate to that. We, we had a similar one, kind of inverse to what you just said but, but a similar interaction where I remember my wife would often say to me, "Oh, I've had a really tough day." And I'd take that as an opportunity to say-

Esther Perel 23:13 "I had a tough day, too, and mine was tougher." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 23:16 No, I would be... I would go f- I would go further and say, "I had a tough week." [laughs]

Esther Perel 23:18 Oh. [laughs] You really upped it. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 23:20 I, like, really upped it, like, you know, and, and it's like I'm using her opportunity to be vulnerable and to share how she feels with me and to feel comforted and supported and just heard to be heard. I'm using her opportunity to be heard to hear myself. Um, it's kind of like when you were looking at me looking at myself earlier.

Esther Perel 23:38 Yes.

Jay Shetty 23:38 It's like that, that idea of she's saying, "Hey, just sit with me for a second," and I'm saying, "Why not sit with me for a week and think about where I'm coming from?"

Esther Perel 23:46 You, you have it tough.

Jay Shetty 23:47 Yeah, and then now-

Esther Perel 23:48 Let me tell you

Jay Shetty 23:49 ... it just turns into a, a competition as to whose life is tougher-

Esther Perel 23:52 Right

Jay Shetty 23:52 ... and making the other person feel like their pain is not valuable or that their stress that they've gone through is insignificant compared to mine, and all of a sudden, you're fighting for something that you don't even want to prove to your partner. Like, I don't want to make my partner feel like their pain is not valuable, but because I'm not honoring my challenge and my stress-

Esther Perel 24:11 That's right

Jay Shetty 24:11 ... and what I'm going through, I'm expecting to use their space to do that.

Esther Perel 24:16 You just explained it very well. But sometimes-

Jay Shetty 24:19 Yeah, please

Esther Perel 24:19 ... I mean, the effect is the same. You topping her, you know, in such a big way completely says to her, "You have nothing to complain about."

Jay Shetty 24:27 Yeah.

Esther Perel 24:27 Which is not necessarily your intention, but it is often-

Jay Shetty 24:29 It is how it comes across

Esther Perel 24:29 ... the way the other person registers it. And then the question to you is, do you ever say to her, "I have a tough week," without her prompt?

Jay Shetty 24:39 Yes.

Esther Perel 24:40 Because part of what happens is that you get prompted by the other person, and it suddenly says, oh, if you give yourself the permission to say, to complain or to-

Jay Shetty 24:48 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 24:49 ... just vent a moment, then maybe I get that permission, too.

Jay Shetty 24:52 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 24:53 And what changes it is to just, you know, A, is to acknowledge what has just been said, and then to say, "I have that feeling often, too."

Jay Shetty 25:01 Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 25:02 But it is the competition. It is the you suffer, I suffer more.

Jay Shetty 25:06 [laughs]

Esther Perel 25:06 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 25:07 Yeah, absolutely. Now, now something that's really helped me personally-

Esther Perel 25:10 Do you use humor now?

Jay Shetty 25:11 Yeah, my, my wife can make anything funny, so I rely on her to bring the humor in, 'cause she's just-

Esther Perel 25:17 Very useful

Jay Shetty 25:17 ... she, yeah, she's just, she's hilarious. She's a comedian, so not as in not professionally.

Esther Perel 25:22 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 25:22 She's just a funny person, and so she, she can always add that. But now what really helps me, and this is more what I'm like, is I'm kind of preemptive of stress. And so I'll sit down and I'll be like, "Hey, I've got a really stressful week coming up. I just want you to be aware of that."

Esther Perel 25:36 Yep.

Jay Shetty 25:36 "And so, you know, if I'm a bit short or I'm running around or I'm not fully present, I just want you to be aware I've got a lot of stuff going on, and if you need me, of course, I'll be there, but just know." And I like to set that up and communicate that because to me it gives me space to at least let her know where I'm coming from rather than to catch me in a bad moment and then I end up behaving in a way that I'm not proud of. Whereas now she's aware, so now she's mindful of that, too. And she doesn't have to tiptoe around me or she doesn't have to be unaware, but it's the idea that she's conscious, that I get it. He's got three crazy days coming up and, you know, we, we can talk about something maybe the day after.

Esther Perel 26:10 Can I take this one a step further?

Jay Shetty 26:11 Please, I'd love to. I'd love that.

Esther Perel 26:13 It's probably one of the most useful things I have seen changing in a relationship.

Jay Shetty 26:19 Mm.

Esther Perel 26:19 When you do what you just do, you've, you're attentive, you're caring, you let her know, you're apologetic. And being apologetic is very beautiful, but it still says, "My life is very important."

Jay Shetty 26:33 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 26:34 "And I just want you to know I'm not gonna be there." The step that really changes it around is when you say to the other person, "I'm so thankful that you are here because your being here is what enables me to go take care of my busy week."

Jay Shetty 26:50 Of course, yes. Absolutely.

Esther Perel 26:50 Because once you say it like that, you make the other person very important.

Jay Shetty 26:54 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 26:55 And not, "My life is so important, thank you for understanding it."

Jay Shetty 26:58 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 26:58 "You come after."

Jay Shetty 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 27:00 "I'll be there if you need me, but you come after."

Jay Shetty 27:02 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 27:02 The thanking reinforces the interdependence, and it's true, 'cause you couldn't go-

Jay Shetty 27:08 Of course

Esther Perel 27:08 ... and attend to your life the way you do without having the other person do whatever it takes for you to be able to be absent for a while.

Jay Shetty 27:16 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 27:16 And when you acknowledge that, it makes them feel like they're part of the story-

Jay Shetty 27:20 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 27:20 ... rather than they're on hold while your story unfolds.

Jay Shetty 27:24 Absolutely, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more, and I've always found that, at least for me, doing that separately in different contexts has at least helped me when it's not tied to the same context, but I love that idea and I, I fully agree with you. Like, you know, I think, uh-

Esther Perel 27:39 It's a nice switch

Jay Shetty 27:40 Yeah, it's beautiful.

Esther Perel 27:41 It's a, it's a tweak that really changes the power dynamic-

Jay Shetty 27:46 Yeah

Esther Perel 27:46 ... in the relationship-

Jay Shetty 27:47 Yeah

Esther Perel 27:47 ... in a small move.

Jay Shetty 27:48 Yes, definitely. It's switching the significance from yourself-

Esther Perel 27:52 Yes

Jay Shetty 27:53 ... to, to this relationship-

Esther Perel 27:54 Yes, yes

Jay Shetty 27:54 ... and the, the support that you each provide. Yeah, that's beautiful. I, I love that. I love what we're talking about, and you've probably heard this a million times, and that's wh- I think it's important to address. A lot of people will say, "I want to talk to my partner about these things."

Esther Perel 28:08 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:08 "I want to be curious about them."

Esther Perel 28:09 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:10 "I want to ask them about their past."

Esther Perel 28:12 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:12 "But every time I do, they shut down."

Esther Perel 28:14 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:14 "They go quiet. They don't wanna talk about it." If I s- if I get curious and say, "Hey," you know, when we're not arguing, but when we're just talking and I say, "Hey, you know what? I just, I just wanted to figure out, like, is there anything that scares you from your past? Is there anything that worries you or is there any challenge you're going through? Like, how can I help you?" And the other person goes, "No, no, no, I'm fine. I'm okay. I'm, I'm dealing with it." And people often feel like they get shut down when they're trying to be curious. I'm sure you've heard this a million times in sessions and how have you, how have you dealt with that?

Esther Perel 28:41 If you've tried to ask your partner a certain set of questions and you systematically get the same answer-

Jay Shetty 28:48 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 28:48 ... change tactic. The point is not doing it one more time hoping that this time you're gonna get a better response.

Jay Shetty 28:54 [laughs] Good answer.

Esther Perel 28:55 It's a little bit like Moses and the rock.

Jay Shetty 28:56 Yeah.

Esther Perel 28:56 You know, the water won't flow.

Jay Shetty 28:58 Yeah.

Esther Perel 28:59 So what I like is not to be so direct.

Jay Shetty 29:03 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 29:03 You know, somebody told me recently that they had gone to, uh, an offsite at work, so it started in a different context, but it's a good example, and she organized this whole offsite and she took a card from the game, from Where Should We Begin? And the card was, "Somebody who impacted your life and doesn't know it."

Jay Shetty 29:23 Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 29:25 And the whole group went through this question, and basically people spoke that have, that you knew nothing about, people who never talk, and people who you thought you knew that came up with stories that you had no idea about. Try to do it in a more playful way. Try to do it sometimes as part of a dinner conversation.

Jay Shetty 29:49 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 29:49 Try to do it with a question that is less on the nose-

Jay Shetty 29:52 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 29:53 ... you know, and that invites you to then start from anywhere you want. This is an interesting question that you can answer at so many levels of depth.

Jay Shetty 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 30:01 There are many of those. If you just say, "Tell me about your past," no. You know, you saw this movie and you saw what happened there, it's like, anything of that that, that is familiar to you and, and you tell your story.

Jay Shetty 30:14 Yeah.

Esther Perel 30:14 You, you need to create a context.

Jay Shetty 30:17 Yes.

Esther Perel 30:17 For many people, digging deep into the past is traumatizing-

Jay Shetty 30:22 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 30:23 ... aversive, scary. ... uninteresting, you know, or they don't have the vocabulary for it-

Jay Shetty 30:29 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 30:29 ... is the other thing. So that's why people have used the arts, books, movies, plays, songs, poetry. They speak our human experience with, and we only have to say, "That."

Jay Shetty 30:41 Yeah.

Esther Perel 30:41 "That's my thing." So sometimes I say to people, you know, "How about you find some songs that express the stuff that you don't know how to talk about?"

Jay Shetty 30:50 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:51 And that's a much lighter lift than, "Tell me about your past," you know? A character that represents the parent that you grew up with, and you go and find into a series, a television series, one of these characters. They're all, they've all been written about.

Jay Shetty 31:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 31:05 Use other mediums, other vocabularies to open up stuff that people don't necessarily want to be in therapy with their partner.

Jay Shetty 31:14 Yeah, I love that. That's such great advice, and I couldn't agree more. I always say, everyone who's listening to me, I always say to them, like, "Please don't force my book onto your partner."

Esther Perel 31:24 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:24 Like, "Please don't." Like, "You may love my books, or you may love my work-"

Esther Perel 31:26 Yeah, put it on the night table. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:27 Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Don't, please don't do that. And I always say to people, like, it's about speaking the language that your partner connects to, and that's what you're saying. The language could be music. The language could be art. The language could be-

Esther Perel 31:37 Correct

Jay Shetty 31:37 ... movies. And I always talk about one of the reasons why I love having my podcast is because I get to speak to so many different people from so many of different backgrounds, so many different walks of life, talking about similar things.

Esther Perel 31:49 You read a book a day.

Jay Shetty 31:50 Yeah, exactly. And, and what I find is someone may relate to athletes more. So if an athlete is opening up about their mental health and their vulnerability or a challenge they have with a parent, your partner may respond to that more-

Esther Perel 32:02 Yeah

Jay Shetty 32:02 ... than they would a coach, a therapist, a psychologist. Or one of your partners may respond to academics and scientists more than they would-

Esther Perel 32:10 Agreed

Jay Shetty 32:10 ... to a guide, and it doesn't matter how they open up. And so I, I, I love that you said that, and I love that you said sometimes we're just trying the same strategy for too long and, you know, like you said, on the nose, we kind of approach it in a very direct-

Esther Perel 32:23 Linear

Jay Shetty 32:23 ... yeah, linear, yeah

Esther Perel 32:24 ... literal way. Like, "Tell me about, you know, you're doing this. What happened to you before?"

Jay Shetty 32:28 [laughs]

Esther Perel 32:28 You know, like a cause and effect.

Jay Shetty 32:29 Yeah.

Esther Perel 32:29 There's, you know, play with it. So I think-

Jay Shetty 32:32 Yeah, you're trying to be their therapist and you can't.

Esther Perel 32:34 I think play is a good thing. I think movement is important, too.

Jay Shetty 32:37 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 32:37 Many people talk much more easily when they're walking-

Jay Shetty 32:40 Yeah

Esther Perel 32:40 ... when they're hiking, when they're, um, you know, on a ski lift. Don't just sit and try to do face-to-face. There's a reason that fishing is so good.

Jay Shetty 32:49 Yes.

Esther Perel 32:49 Because you do parallel play. Everybody's looking forward. Nobody has to lock eyes, and it allows me to think out loud and to answer a question here and there. The other thing is sometimes the question comes later. Often, there's one person that's much more articulate about some of these things than another.

Jay Shetty 33:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 33:05 So find other mediums, other vocabularies, and other settings. Start with that.

Jay Shetty 33:10 Yeah,

Jay Shetty 33:11 I love that. One of my favorite dates that w- me and my wife went on very early on was this activity in England called Go Ape, and what it is is it's, uh, it's like a ropes course that's high up in the air, so it's like 80 feet or whatever-

Esther Perel 33:24 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 33:24 ... up above in the air. And you've got all these different, like, activities and things, so you're, like, swinging. You're, like, trying to walk on these steps. It's, it's challenging, but it's fun.

Esther Perel 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 33:33 And I remember having so much fun because there were activities that she found easy and I found hard, and activities that I found easy and she found hard. And we could help each other. We could talk while we were doing it. There was a sense of support. And I think what you're saying is so true, that I find that doing activities where we're both novices are really fun. Because when we're both getting a chance to see a new, fresh, unseen side of each other, we really get to play and really get to understand. If I'm in a position of strength, if I know a sport really well and she's never done it, then I'm not really learning anything new. I'm kind of just being there-

Esther Perel 34:11 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 34:11 ... and trying to be the teacher, and same vice versa. But if we both have no clue about something, like me and my wife took a surfing lesson for the first time in our life, like, a couple of years ago when we went to Hawaii. We'd both never surfed in our life. You know, we're both from London, and that wasn't a- accessible there. And we went on a first ever lesson, and it was just hilarious. It was fun. It was silly. We were both learning about how much tolerance we both had, and there was humor coming in and what skill set we had. And you're so right that adding movement to being together, especially I find in ways where you're not familiar, provides a real, uh, opportunity to see someone vulnerably. Yeah.

Esther Perel 34:49 So you added more than just movement.

Jay Shetty 34:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 34:52 You added risk.

Jay Shetty 34:53 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 34:54 And you added playfulness. There's a beautiful book by Eli Finkel called The All-or-Nothing Marriage, and he talks about really what creates a sense of aliveness-

Jay Shetty 35:03 Mm

Esther Perel 35:04 ... in relationships, and one of the things he highlights is the importance of doing new things, not just doing things that you both enjoy, that you're comfortable with. That's good, but that breeds friendship.

Jay Shetty 35:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 35:16 Whereas when you do new things that also involve unknown, mystery, risk-

Jay Shetty 35:21 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 35:21 ... curiosity, that's where you actually bring in excitement and, in my language, also desire.

Jay Shetty 35:27 Mm, I love that. Yeah, that's beautiful. That, that makes complete sense, and I love those words. Those words we don't often use around relationships, risk, mystery, like puzz-

Esther Perel 35:36 I do. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 35:36 Yeah. No, no, I know, but you just don't hear them as much.

Esther Perel 35:38 No, not enough. Not enough.

Jay Shetty 35:39 Like, you don't hear them enough at all around relationships. You always feel mystery was something you had on date one or when you saw that person from across the room, right? Like, that's when the mystery was, and there isn't any, but I couldn't agree with you more that-

Esther Perel 35:51 But that's because people prefer sometimes to create an illusion-

Jay Shetty 35:56 Mm

Esther Perel 35:56 ... of familiarity as if I know you like you're the inside of my pocket-

Jay Shetty 36:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Esther Perel 36:01 ... until you do something I absolutely did not expect you to do, and then suddenly I realize, and I say, "I thought I knew you." The real beauty is to know that whoever is next to you, who you think is already so familiar and so known, is actually still-

Jay Shetty 36:16 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 36:16 ... somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive, and that's where you maintain your curiosity. Next to the person that is n- with you. You know, faced with the unknown, you can either react with fear and try to flatten it and just ignore all of that and just hold on to what's familiar, or you can nurture it, and then you are actually engaging with the mystery and the curiosity that is right in front of you. And that you know from your spiritual work that is very much taken from that notion.

Jay Shetty 36:46 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 36:46 How you then... Because that allows you to sit like this when you're talking with your partner 'cause you're still attentive and curious versus like this.

Jay Shetty 36:55 Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Let's, let's say someone decides to break up or maybe they're broken up with, and we can talk about both sides of that. If we talk about the side of someone's decided to break up with someone for their own reasons, and of course there could be a million reasons-

Esther Perel 37:14 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 37:14 ... for breaking up with someone, so it's hard to be specific there. But if someone's broken up with someone but they are having those feelings as you said, the consequences will be you'll still have that grief of what could have been. You have the consequences of maybe it could have worked, maybe we should have tried. There, there's still a feeling of, "I wish they were still around. I used to talk to them every day at 7:00 PM at night. I used to... On a Friday night we'd always go to this favorite restaurant." Whatever it may have been, we have these memories. What do people do with that feeling? What do you do with that feeling of craving?

Esther Perel 37:50 You know, you do a lot of different things, but it's so interesting. I literally edited a new episode for the podcast for Where Should We Begin? of a guy who leaves his wife, who he had been very close to for quite a few years, has a young child, moves in with another woman, is on the verge a few years later of marrying that other woman, and can't do it, and has felt guilt and remorse and regret and longing for all those years, and starts to meet the mother of his child again, not just as a mother, but, but now they're going on a first date again, and it's like, "I left you and then I came back to you." It's an incredible story to see one person, that d- because that is a question that doesn't have one answer. But in this case, he couldn't leave her fast enough, but he could never leave her fully.

Jay Shetty 38:52 Mm.

Esther Perel 38:53 And I can't tell you today if he's back with her or what, but I have a sense that something when he was about to marry this other woman held him back-

Jay Shetty 39:03 Mm

Esther Perel 39:03 ... that he couldn't necessarily put into words, and that made him feel like he had to examine himself, which is what this whole conversation on Where Should We Begin? is l- about. And I've never had that particular version of it, but it is the one that most responds to your question.

Jay Shetty 39:20 Wow.

Esther Perel 39:20 But you're gonna have to go listen. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 39:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, and I recommend everyone go and listen to that if that's a question you've been asking yourself.

Jay Shetty 39:27 I, I think that heartache that, that people feel often feels endless, as you said. It can just go on and on and on forever. People feel like... We've always heard, you know, time will heal all wounds, but-

Esther Perel 39:38 Who instigated the breakup is the... really changes a lot, or if it was mutual.

Jay Shetty 39:43 Is it ever mutual?

Esther Perel 39:44 Yes.

Jay Shetty 39:44 Okay.

Esther Perel 39:45 I think, I think that, uh, it is often mutual where two people say, "We evolved into something else," or, "It just didn't work," or, you know, both people may have felt it, but one person-

Jay Shetty 39:58 Mm

Esther Perel 39:58 ... was able to say, "Let's do it."

Jay Shetty 40:00 Yeah. That, that makes sense. Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:01 You know? And the person who is more afraid of abandonment and rejection and all of that is often more the person who may not say it, but that doesn't mean they didn't feel it. Many people tell you, "I didn't have the guts to do it, but it's the best thing that happened to me."

Jay Shetty 40:17 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 40:17 "My partner pushed it. I w- didn't want it then." So between what happens in the moment-

Jay Shetty 40:22 Mm

Esther Perel 40:22 ... and how people experience the consequence, it's not one and the same.

Jay Shetty 40:26 Mm. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Esther Perel 40:27 The person who may have pushed it-

Jay Shetty 40:29 Yes

Esther Perel 40:29 ... may be the one who has the most regret. The person who was more hesitant, it may be the one who actually is most liberated.

Jay Shetty 40:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:36 It's not-

Jay Shetty 40:37 Yes. Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:37 It's a much more intricate puzzle-

Jay Shetty 40:39 Absolutely

Esther Perel 40:39 ... than just-

Jay Shetty 40:40 Of course. Of course. What are some of the phases that you see people go through that can give people hope that there is another side to this? Because I think when you're in it, the emotion is, "I'm never gonna be loved again. I'll never find someone as good as them again. I can't trust anyone again." Right? Like, these are the thoughts that people are repeating in their minds. What does someone need to understand during that time to, to know?

Esther Perel 41:06 You just made me think of, of, uh, of another episode of this, but it's the daughter who describes how one day a truck came, took all of her father's stuff. I mean, never comes back home. That's a story that we hear quite often. And then all the situations of betrayal, of infidelity, of falling in love with somebody else or discovering that your partner, you know, wants a fundamentally different relationship than you, and I think that s- the situations where you are, like, completely sidelined and you realize, "Wow," the first experience you have is that your whole sense of reality is shattered. "I thought I knew my life, and this has nothing to do with where I thought I was at. How can this be happening to me?" You're in a state of confusion, in a state of disbelief, and in a state of shock, and in a state where you feel like you've been just ejected from your life. You, you, you had value and you have none.

Jay Shetty 42:05 Mm.

Esther Perel 42:06 That's all part of betrayal. It's not just the lying. It's the fact that somebody could toss you away like that and that you think, "I don't matter," and that's what makes you much more afraid. "Will I ever find someone who can hold me, carry, care and carry me, you know, and can I trust that ever again 'cause I trusted it here?" The question is as much about, how do I trust again? But not just how do I trust somebody else, how do I trust my own perception- That's the piece that-

Jay Shetty 42:38 Mm. Mm

Esther Perel 42:39 ... when you lose the belief in your ability to know that what you believe is what is-

Jay Shetty 42:43 Yeah

Esther Perel 42:44 ... then you are on such shaky ground. So it demands a real scaffolding and a rebuilding. No, you haven't lost your entire sense of perception, because you have good friends, family, colleagues, mentors. There's not just that person, and you need to get your sense of value from noticing the other relationships that you have. So you need to bring those people into your life. Do not isolate at that moment. You need the people who see you differently from the one who just left you.

Jay Shetty 43:13 Mm.

Esther Perel 43:14 And who, those who seek you out, those who value your presence, those who think you're great, you know? And then slowly, you often will c- find that you connect better with other people who have experienced a sense of betrayal like that. But betrayal is not only infidelity. It can also be in a partnership. It can be in a, in being co-founders of something, in... There are other relationships that go through this complete fracture. Slowly you begin to say, "It's not one person's harming me or hurting me that is a decree on who I am and my self-worth."

Jay Shetty 43:49 Mm.

Esther Perel 43:50 "That person hurt me deeply. I have been hurt, and I learn from this, and I protect myself a little bit, but I don't have to protect myself in such a way that I don't live."

Jay Shetty 44:02 Mm.

Esther Perel 44:03 Because the biggest victory on this kind of hurt is the ability to love again-

Jay Shetty 44:10 Mm

Esther Perel 44:10 ... to trust again. You did not take that from me. That is probably your biggest vengeance, is to be happy.

Jay Shetty 44:19 Mm. Wow. Yeah, I mean, that, that resonates very, very strongly. And first of all, can people rebuild trust after experiencing infidelity? And what does that process look like for someone, and how different it is it to what they expect it to be?

Esther Perel 44:42 The beauty of your questions is that it filled an entire book of mine. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 44:47 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 44:47 'Cause it's actually-

Jay Shetty 44:49 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 44:49 ... a big, big topic. But if I was to try to summarize it, yes. Yes, of course people can rebuild trust. I mean, that is a very... Not everybody and not in every situation, but the process itself very much is real. And I have met a, you know, I began State of Affair by going to talk to couples that I had seen five or 10 years earlier to know whatever happens to these people, 'cause I see them in a moment of crisis, and often I don't know afterwards. You know, they decided to stay together, they worked it through, and off they went. So I wanted to know, what does that relationship actually look like years later? Who are they? What happened to their bond? You rebuild trust b- through a few major stages. The first one is that whoever hurt you, especially if you choose to stay together, has the ability to express guilt and remorse-

Jay Shetty 45:46 Mm

Esther Perel 45:47 ... for hurting you. Even if they don't feel guilty for the affair itself, even if they have hosts of good explanations, good reasons that, that make it understandable, not justifiable, not condonable, but understandable, they still can experience the guilt and the remorse for hurting you. That acknowledgement is fundamental. It's fundamental in an intimate relationship, in a friendship, or between nations, for that matter. Then it's the ability to basically become what I call the vigilante of the relationship.

Jay Shetty 46:21 Mm.

Esther Perel 46:21 It means it's your job now to say how much you value the relationship-

Jay Shetty 46:26 Mm

Esther Perel 46:26 ... and to protect the relationship. So in the situation of an affair, for example, it means that instead of you asking me questions about what I did, and me hoping that you won't ask me because we've already gone through this 10 times, I ask you, "Is there something you wanna ask me?"

Jay Shetty 46:44 Mm.

Esther Perel 46:45 Because if I bring it up rather than hoping you won't bring it up, then I'm saying to you, "I'm owning my thing. I take responsibility. I care about the relationship." And most of the time if we have a good day, you may say to me, "I don't wanna talk about it. I'm having a good day."

Jay Shetty 46:59 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:00 Because I am reminding us, and I'm not letting it be forgotten, and I'm taking charge. That's the vigilante.

Jay Shetty 47:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:06 I'm the protector of the relationship. And then number three is to explain, to talk between the people, "Why did you do this? What did it mean to you? And then what did it do to me?"

Jay Shetty 47:19 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:20 The affair

Esther Perel 47:21 always includes both sides.

Jay Shetty 47:23 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:23 If you just talk about what it meant for you, you're missing a point. If we're just talking about what it did to me-

Jay Shetty 47:30 Mm

Esther Perel 47:30 ... we're missing a point.

Jay Shetty 47:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:31 So the ability to not just look at the facts, what did you do, but the meaning of it. Affairs have meaning. They're stories. They tell us something about the person, about the relationship. Not always bad things, for that matter.

Jay Shetty 47:45 Mm.

Esther Perel 47:45 So what did it mean to you? And those three stages, in the crisis phase, remorse, guilt, acknowledgement. In the insight phase, you are the vigilante, and together we explore meaning making of this crisis for us. What are we gonna do with this?

Jay Shetty 48:04 Mm.

Esther Perel 48:05 And then phase three is if we do stay together, what's our vision for who we wanna be? No, we will probably not go back to what we were, because what we were may have been part of why we got to where we are.

Jay Shetty 48:18 Mm.

Esther Perel 48:18 Who do we wanna be? What does it open up? An affair topples the scorecard in a relationship. So I may have accepted all kinds of things because w- this was the way I conceived of our relationship, and I was willing to not work, and I was willing to make more money. I was willing to work all the time. I was willing to do all the childcare. I was willing to do none of it. I was willing to take care of your ailing mother, of your addicted brother, whatever. I accepted a lot of things, but now- This basically gives me the opportunity to also say, "I also have discontent."

Jay Shetty 48:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 48:51 It's not just your affair that expresses-

Jay Shetty 48:53 Mm

Esther Perel 48:53 ... the discontent. And so here's the fundamental line. Most of us today in the West are going to have two or three relationships in our adult life, or marriages. Some of us are gonna do it with the same person.

Jay Shetty 49:09 Mm.

Esther Perel 49:10 So sometimes the affair is the end of the first marriage or the first relationship, but it can be the beginning of the next one-

Jay Shetty 49:18 Mm

Esther Perel 49:18 ... with each other, and that's the rebuilding of the trust.

Jay Shetty 49:21 Mm, well said. Yeah, no, and it's-- I'm sure that's gonna give people a lot of hope. But also what I love about your work and, and your books is that there's also a process there. There's a structure there. There's a method there for people to go, "Oh, okay, that's where we're at. That's what I'm struggling with." I think one of the biggest thoughts that repeats in people's minds when they're broken up with or when they've experienced infidelity that I hear from people is, "Jay, I feel like I'm not worthy anymore. I feel like I'm not lovable again. I feel like I'm not desirable usually."

Esther Perel 49:55 While they are staying with the person or while they've broken up?

Jay Shetty 49:58 Both. Pe- I've heard people say, "I don't feel desirable because they desire someone else, but I still wanna be with that person, and I don't feel worthy even with that person now because I'm reminded constantly," as you said, "of their infidelity." And these thoughts perpetuate, but what I'm hearing you say, and I'd love for you to guide us, is, what I'm hearing you say is, well, that's why you need to do the meaning-making because you really need to understand their story and meaning and yours. Right now you're just focused on yours, and that's always going to be this negative repetitive pattern.

Esther Perel 50:33 You remind me of, uh, a, a couple I saw, and this man had done something that was really egregious in some way because he had taken everything that was special to the relationship and shared it with the other person.

Jay Shetty 50:49 Mm.

Esther Perel 50:49 But everything.

Jay Shetty 50:50 Wow.

Esther Perel 50:51 Their favorite places, restaurants, clothing. I mean-

Jay Shetty 50:55 Wow

Esther Perel 50:55 ... he had left nothing sacred. That's a devaluing.

Jay Shetty 50:58 Mm.

Esther Perel 50:59 Right? And whenever he- they would drive, there was a way when they would arrive to a place and she would look at him, and it was like, "There too?"

Jay Shetty 51:08 Mm.

Esther Perel 51:09 And so he would dread it because he knew he was guilty as charged. And then I began to say to him, "I want you, every time you drive, when there is a place you say yes. There too, without waiting for the question." Because you know that you have to stand-- But when there is-- That you have to stand accountable. But when there is a place not, you say, "No, there not," before the question comes up. That's part of the vigilante.

Jay Shetty 51:36 Mm.

Esther Perel 51:36 So that you protect the relationship and you bring back the value. You say, you know, "Now go create new places too that are new for the two of you, and that you need new cells. You can't just, uh, go back and try to reenter the spaces that you were in." The loss of value gets addressed by having someone who is slowly reclaiming the value. The feeling is true, but it doesn't mean that because they had desire for someone else, they had none for you. Actually, sometimes they had desire for someone else because you had none for them.

Jay Shetty 52:09 Mm.

Esther Perel 52:11 You know, the person-

Jay Shetty 52:12 Mm

Esther Perel 52:12 ... who says that to you is, comes with one particular story, but there's so many stories.

Jay Shetty 52:17 Mm.

Esther Perel 52:18 You know, sometimes you have a person who was completely in, uninterested for a decade, and then they are upset that their partner was interested with somebody else.

Jay Shetty 52:27 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 52:28 It's not just, you know, "I was there available for you, and you dumped me-

Jay Shetty 52:32 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 52:32 ... for someone that you looked at with a bigger, you know, founder eyes." So what people experience after the betrayal doesn't always tell the story of what happened before.

Jay Shetty 52:43 Mm.

Esther Perel 52:43 That's why the meaning-making is so really important. You know, sometimes somebody's gonna say to the other, "You devalued me for 10 years."

Jay Shetty 52:53 Mm.

Esther Perel 52:53 "You barely paid any attention to me. You were so enraptured in your work. You were so busy with your phone. You were so..." You know, "You, I was abandoned long before," you know? And that also needs to be put into the story. The story doesn't start-

Jay Shetty 53:07 Mm

Esther Perel 53:08 ... the moment that you discover something.

Jay Shetty 53:10 Mm.

Esther Perel 53:11 Because there are a lot of moving pieces underneath, and people addressing this with care, carefulness, and responsibility is the process. It's, the hope doesn't come from nowhere. It comes because two people say, "This is important. We built something. We've been together five, 10, 15 years, 25 years. We're not letting this just go. Now we need to reclaim the value of this for both of us."

Jay Shetty 53:38 Absolutely. This idea that

Jay Shetty 53:41 we're gonna have two to three relationships in our adult, adult life, and they could either be with the same person or, of course, with two to three different people, and I think this idea of choice and selection has obviously rapidly changed because of technology and apps and the amount of people you can bump into. You know, I looked at studies saying that, you know, 25 years ago, most people ended up with someone within a five-mile radius of where they grew up. We know that that's not the case anymore. People are moving countries for people, moving states. People are living in different parts of the world. We both live in different parts of the world than where we grew up. And so when I look at that, one of the biggest challenges I find or, or that I hear from people is because there's so much selection, there's a sense of like, "I'm not feeling any spark. I'm not feeling any chemistry. I don't feel a connection with this person." I hear that a lot, and we'll, let's address that. And then the other thing I hear is this idea of like, you know, this guy didn't have as much as the other guy or, you know, and you start comparing it because you can, because you're just exposed to so many more people now, and you're almost comparing resumes of people that you've heard about, spoken to, seen on a dating app, introduced through your friends. So this idea of choice and the paradox of choice, as it's always been called in studies, from products to people now, you know, we can get stuck at a grocery store wondering which product to buy. But in, in dating it feels like you can keep going because you can just keep swiping. Let's talk about both of those, the idea of how do you choose, how do you select, and when you're choosing and selecting, how do you not feel that sense of there could be more?

Esther Perel 55:30 I said, choice comes with loss. I'm actually very excited about this question because I'm very interested in this at this moment.

Jay Shetty 55:39 Mm.

Esther Perel 55:39 Right? I'm interested in the intersection of technology and relationships and mental health, and I've just done a, a bunch of episodes with people in the dating scene because of exactly this. So we have a frenzy of cons- of romantic consumerism in which, in search of the perfect, people are no longer happy with the good.

Jay Shetty 56:03 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 56:04 We have people looking for a soulmate on an app. That's an interesting combination between spirituality and capitalism.

Jay Shetty 56:11 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 56:12 And how do we even think that a partner is a soulmate? Soulmate used to be God, you know? And now we want transcendence and mystery and wholeness and all of it, and ecstasy almost, with a person. You know, the stuff that people looked for in the realm of the divine they now want with their person.

Jay Shetty 56:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 56:32 And at the same time, they're doing it with a checklist so that many dating experiences are like job interviews.

Jay Shetty 56:38 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 56:39 So all of that combined, right? I do think we have more choice, but we also have a lot more uncertainty and a lot more self-doubt.

Jay Shetty 56:47 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 56:48 And we are a lot less capable of handling uncertainty-

Jay Shetty 56:51 Mm

Esther Perel 56:52 ... because we live with a host of predictive technologies that are all meant to take away uncertainties, obstacle, friction, you know, rough edges. So we don't rub anymore with stuff that helps us deal with uncertainty, unknown, and engage with happenstance. You know, happenstance means you stand in line and you start talking to the person that is behind you in line, and after that you go and have a drink with that person, and after that you find yourself exchanging numbers and a story starts.

Jay Shetty 57:23 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 57:24 Spontaneously. Unprompted. So

Esther Perel 57:28 I think that the commodification that people feel is real. It's not just because of your childhood, it's part of society at this point. There is a way in which we talk about ourselves as products, and there is a way in which we talk about ourselves online with followers as if we are religious leaders.

Jay Shetty 57:44 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 57:45 You and me, for that matter. So the first thing, don't go in thinking that you have to find somebody at the first meeting. This is not the way it works, and that you go down your list and, you know, it, and then the, if the f- the first thing that goes wrong, you go, "Ick," and you just go on to the next.

Jay Shetty 58:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 58:05 You know? What I'm doing now when I address this very question-

Jay Shetty 58:08 Mm

Esther Perel 58:09 ... is I show a very famous clip. It's classic in psychology, called the still face experiment.

Jay Shetty 58:18 Mm.

Esther Perel 58:18 Have you ever seen it?

Jay Shetty 58:18 No, I haven't.

Esther Perel 58:19 It's a two-minute clip on YouTube. In the still face experiment, the mother is playing with the little one, and the little one is cooing and showing her things and, you know. And then at some point the mother goes still face.

Jay Shetty 58:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 58:32 And the kid continues to point and continues to call her attention, and within 30 seconds or less of the mother not responding, the kid goes into a panic, a frenzy, loses its body composure, starts shrieking, and basically you understand that we are relational people from-

Jay Shetty 58:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 58:53 And what this clip shows me is that this is what goes on in ghosting-

Jay Shetty 58:57 Mm

Esther Perel 58:57 ... in breadcrumbing-

Jay Shetty 58:58 Mm

Esther Perel 58:59 ... in check listing. This is what is the experience of many people at this moment. You go, you have a hedonic treadmill. You meet someone, you think there's possibilities, and then they disappear on you.

Jay Shetty 59:10 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 59:10 And you're left like this, and then you unravel, and you do this sometimes 20 times a day with the same person. This is kind of the experience of modern dating at this moment.

Jay Shetty 59:20 Yeah, absolutely.

Esther Perel 59:20 I haven't seen many people say, "I love it."

Jay Shetty 59:22 Yeah. [laughs]

Esther Perel 59:23 You know? Maybe 65% of meeting, people meet on an app, but I don't see people saying, "I love it." Actually, it's the f- number one complaint of people dating at this moment.

Jay Shetty 59:33 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 59:33 So try to bring back something that is more humane. You meet somebody or a friend introduce you to someone, don't go and meet with them alone in a bar to have a face-to-face conversation to go down an interview. Do an activity. It's exactly what you were talking about. Do something you enjoy doing. Bring that person to a thing that you're doing with friends. You wanna get to know somebody, put them in a social situation.

Jay Shetty 59:55 Yeah.

Esther Perel 59:55 See how they interact with people, their c- how they act, how they respond, how they engage with people. If you think that you're going to have epiphanies with clarity like an app, forget it. You will be exhausted and you won't meet anybody.

Jay Shetty 1:00:11 Really well said. [laughs] And I, and I couldn't agree with you more. I'm always trying to push people away. I'm like, "Get out of your inbox and your DMs and your messages and get out there." There's no way talking to someone over a couple of messages is gonna help you figure anything out. But you've probably spoken to so many people who've had chemistry, lost chemistry, never had it. I feel like a lot of people today that I hear from, they're meeting people, but they're like, "There's no spark. There's no chemistry. I'm not feeling anything." What- ... should we want to feel, if there is anything we should want to feel at all with someone, and what is the difference between chemistry, compatibility, and-

Esther Perel 1:00:48 Ha

Jay Shetty 1:00:48 ... connection?

Esther Perel 1:00:49 Well, it, first of all, I think we need to differentiate. Are you looking for chemistry for a love story?

Jay Shetty 1:00:54 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:00:55 Or are you looking for chemistry for a life story?

Jay Shetty 1:00:57 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:00:58 Lots of people you can have chemistry with, have a fantastic night with for that matter, or more-

Jay Shetty 1:01:03 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:01:03 ... but that's not the person you necessarily wanna make a life with.

Jay Shetty 1:01:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:01:07 The project will determine the nature of the chemistry.

Jay Shetty 1:01:10 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:01:11 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:01:12 That's number one.

Jay Shetty 1:01:12 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Esther Perel 1:01:13 So number two is curiosity, a desire for more. I wanna... You know, it's like you read a book. A person is a book, right? Or a, you can use other metaphors. Do you drag yourself through the next page? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:01:28 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:01:29 Ugh, you know, I should, uh, you know, let me see where it goes.

Jay Shetty 1:01:32 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:01:32 Or, like, you can't wait.

Jay Shetty 1:01:34 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:01:35 You know, it's a page-turner.

Jay Shetty 1:01:36 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:01:36 If you know, if the experience of the page-turner with the person, you want more, you want to have the next conversation, you wanna ask them that kind of question, you wanna go do something else with them, you're on a good track. You know, this notion of this instant combustion of emotion that fills you up, you want a religious experience.

Jay Shetty 1:01:56 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:01:57 That is not always the case. Sometimes people fall like that, you know, as we say, fall. But the majority of the time, it, d- things grow. You know, they grow through the interaction. You get a good text, you like what you just read, you find yourself wanting to answer a sentence, and you've just answered two pages. You know, you wanted to go and meet them for half an hour, and three hours later you're still sitting on the floor in the hallway having an enthralling conversation. That's the stuff that br- breeds the feelings. If you sit there like this and think that some, you know, deus ex machina is gonna fall from the heavens, you're off. You know, it's this false certainty. That is not the majority of people, and there's many ways in. Some people start hot, and then they become lukewarm-

Jay Shetty 1:02:43 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:02:43 ... and some people start lukewarm, and the heat grows over time.

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:02:47 There isn't one narrative. This notion that Hollywood has sold us-

Jay Shetty 1:02:52 Mm

Esther Perel 1:02:52 ... that just like, ah, [laughs] and I can't wait, and I just have this, I fall for you on the sp- That's one plot.

Jay Shetty 1:02:59 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:02:59 But there are many plots, and if you constrain yourself in thinking, "This is how I should be feeling, and I'm not feeling it-"

Jay Shetty 1:03:07 Mm

Esther Perel 1:03:07 ... then you, you are limiting your options.

Jay Shetty 1:03:10 Yeah. Well, one thing that has really come up a lot with people I've spoken to recently is this idea of they find someone who makes them feel safe, who they feel cared for by, and the person seems to be, they consider them to be good-hearted.

Esther Perel 1:03:29 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:03:31 That person makes-

Esther Perel 1:03:32 I'm waiting for the but. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:03:33 Yes, exactly. You're right. You already know. You already know. This person, in their words, makes sense.

Esther Perel 1:03:39 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:03:40 But they feel like they're settling because there must be someone else who has all of that plus the other three things that they want.

Esther Perel 1:03:49 You are a perfect candidate for romantic consumerism if you think this way. You've been had. You've been, literally you've become a good person that I can, we can s- you know, y- your, your mind is set for somebody telling you, "This is the product you need."

Jay Shetty 1:04:07 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:04:07 "The perfect fit." And then you are going to be the perfect patient who comes in thinking, "I thought my person was like this and this and this, and they're not the deal that I bargained for. It's not what was written on paper." You can l- the language, it's like business, you know? Capitalism enters romantic [laughs] life.

Jay Shetty 1:04:27 Mm. Mm.

Esther Perel 1:04:27 It's, it's really crippling to people. You know, the more you have this notion of perfection, the lo- the higher you can fall.

Jay Shetty 1:04:34 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:04:34 You know, are you perfect? Are you that great? Do you think that everybody falls for you? Like, what is this notion? So then there is this idea that there is the sense and settling with the passion, you know, and you should have that passion. Passion is a wonderful feeling to have. It's maybe not the best thing to decide if you wanna have a life with somebody on.

Jay Shetty 1:04:54 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:04:54 It's not the most important ingredient for that.

Jay Shetty 1:04:57 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:04:57 You know, that doesn't mean you don't want excitement, intensity, you know, draw. But this idea that there is reason and passion, that's a very old divide. That's the, that is the, the divide of the 19th century, the rationalists and the romantics.

Jay Shetty 1:05:12 And why do you say that? Why do you think that... And I, and I get that you're giving a balanced approach there, but to enlighten-

Esther Perel 1:05:18 Yeah, yeah. Go ahead

Jay Shetty 1:05:18 ... all of us in what you've seen, you compared the love story and the life story.

Esther Perel 1:05:22 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:05:22 Why do you think... It almost feels like what we've been sold is for the love story, but the life story requires a different set of skills.

Esther Perel 1:05:29 Yes. Yes, skills and values-

Jay Shetty 1:05:30 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:05:31 ... and compatibilities.

Jay Shetty 1:05:32 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:05:32 Because there are many more people that you can love-

Jay Shetty 1:05:35 Mm

Esther Perel 1:05:36 ... than people you can make a life with.

Jay Shetty 1:05:38 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:05:38 I can have many love stories with people that I meet on a trip that I, you know, with whom I have a, a beautiful short story with.

Jay Shetty 1:05:47 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:05:47 But would that be the person with whom I can b- Do, do we share anything else in terms of how we see life?

Jay Shetty 1:05:54 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:05:55 Ev- with everything else that life brings, that's a s- different thing. That doesn't mean you don't want love in the life story.

Jay Shetty 1:06:02 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:06:02 But many more love stories can exist without life story.

Jay Shetty 1:06:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:07 Not that many life stories will exist without a love story.

Jay Shetty 1:06:11 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:11 You know, you can call it an adventure, you can call it, you know... And it is what people used to do when they date before they're looking for someone-

Jay Shetty 1:06:19 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:06:19 ... with whom they wanna have a more committed relationship. It, it's very important that, that we see that a lot of the things that we're looking for are the things that make for a real love story.

Jay Shetty 1:06:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:32 The things we wanna feel. The things that are on the checklist are the things that we've kind of created a, a, an impossible situation.

Jay Shetty 1:06:39 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:40 It's really... So you don't settle. If you see, that language says what? "I am fantastic," you know, or, "I am not fantastic, but I'm gonna find someone fantastic who's gonna make me" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:06:53 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:53 "... rise."

Jay Shetty 1:06:54 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:06:54 And it is a kind of use of people that really is l- is creating such a psychological paucity. It's really eroding people's sense of self-esteem and sense of self-worth.

Jay Shetty 1:07:08 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:07:08 It's not good.

Jay Shetty 1:07:09 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:07:10 Where are you at in your life? At 23, you're gonna think differently from 33. You know? At 20- at 33, it's likely that you're gonna think of a few people that you said no to at 23 that were perfectly fine.

Jay Shetty 1:07:22 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:07:23 And you kind of didn't because you kept thinking, "I can do better." And this I can do better is eating people up-

Jay Shetty 1:07:30 Mm

Esther Perel 1:07:31 ... because it creates constant restlessness, in relationships, in life, in pursuit, and then they need to go and meditate [laughs] to get calmer, to be less restless, but the restlessness is this constant pursuit of more, better, younger, and therefore living with the feeling not enough. "I don't have enough. I'm not enough." And that's the crisis that then follows around self-worth. Because you constantly want more, you end up constantly feeling not enough.

Jay Shetty 1:08:03 Yeah, and someone else will make me feel more than enough.

Esther Perel 1:08:06 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:08:07 This-

Esther Perel 1:08:07 The evaluation.

Jay Shetty 1:08:08 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:08:08 The, you know, the, the, the meaning of finding the love partner today is that it will end my s- sense of constant self-evaluation.

Jay Shetty 1:08:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:08:17 I'm evaluating myself. I'm presenting myself. I'm selling myself. I'm trying to compete on the market.

Jay Shetty 1:08:23 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:08:23 It's like language, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:08:25 Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 1:08:25 This, the, the romantic language is about the market, you know, the meat, and then when I find you, my beloved, I will finally stop the process of evaluation. This is a, a thing from Eva Illouz, a great sociologist that studies love relationships.

Jay Shetty 1:08:41 Mm, that's such a beautiful language as well, like you want to end your process of evaluation, when actually a life story is an evolution of self-evaluation. It's only gonna come with more. Do

Jay Shetty 1:08:54 you see there being inherent value in long-term committed relationships, or is that also a construct of society?

Esther Perel 1:09:02 I see... Look, I work very cross-culturally.

Jay Shetty 1:09:05 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:09:05 Right? So I, I don't think the answer is the same-

Jay Shetty 1:09:08 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:09:08 ... if I am in Belgium, in India, in Turkey, but I think there is a lot of value in a long-term relationship, but the long-term relationship has doubled in lifespan.

Jay Shetty 1:09:20 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:09:20 So a hundred years ago, we lived half of now, so the long term gets, keeps on getting longer.

Jay Shetty 1:09:26 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:09:27 But there is also tremendous value in having had the possibility of finally being able to end this-

Jay Shetty 1:09:32 Mm

Esther Perel 1:09:33 ... and to start anew or to never have had it and to start anew. People who marry for the first time in their 60s or people who realize that they had a beautiful relationship for certain things and that now they needed something else. Th- marriage was an institution that you couldn't leave. You got in-

Jay Shetty 1:09:50 Mm

Esther Perel 1:09:50 ... and you got in for life, and if you didn't like it, you could hope for a early, an early death of your partner.

Jay Shetty 1:09:55 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:09:56 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:09:56 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:09:57 Hopefully, because that was the only way out-

Jay Shetty 1:09:59 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:09:59 ... and especially for women. I mean, marriage has not meant the same-

Jay Shetty 1:10:03 Mm

Esther Perel 1:10:03 ... for men and women.

Jay Shetty 1:10:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:10:04 Marriage for same-sex people is very recent. So the question h- has a lot of different-

Jay Shetty 1:10:10 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:10:10 ... pieces. I think that there is something very beautiful in a long novel.

Jay Shetty 1:10:15 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:10:15 And I think that there are beautiful short stories.

Jay Shetty 1:10:18 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:10:18 There isn't a one-size-fits-all at this moment, and the interesting thing is we've been creative about a lot of things.

Jay Shetty 1:10:25 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:10:25 We disrupt. We are creative about even family life. We have blended families, same-sex families, single-parent families, accordion families, but when it comes to romantic couples, romanticism, the exclusiveness, the monogamous long-term model has been the dominant model for two centuries and, and is quite, um, strong.

Jay Shetty 1:10:46 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:10:46 So I think we can be more creative-

Jay Shetty 1:10:49 Mm

Esther Perel 1:10:49 ... and in, in rethinking relational arrangements and relationship arrangements that are more diverse and that bring in other people as in the community because what is happening in the long-term relationship of today is not only that it is much longer, but it is also much more isolated.

Jay Shetty 1:11:08 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:11:09 Yeah?

Jay Shetty 1:11:09 Longer and lonelier, yeah.

Esther Perel 1:11:10 Longer and lonelier. One person to give us what normally an entire village should provide.

Jay Shetty 1:11:16 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:11:16 And that is crippling the relationships under so much weight and so many expectations. So those, those who do it well-

Jay Shetty 1:11:23 Mm

Esther Perel 1:11:23 ... do it better-

Jay Shetty 1:11:25 Mm

Esther Perel 1:11:25 ... than the relationships of the past, says Eli Finkel. But the majority of them don't manage to climb the Olympus.

Jay Shetty 1:11:31 Mm, mm. Yeah, and I... You know, I often think about that because I think what we were talking about earlier, when I first met my wife, I'd definitely say that there was so much of the romanticism of the perfect relationship, and I often talk about in my book as well about how I proposed to my wife, which was basically based off of Instagram and YouTube videos, how I invented-

Esther Perel 1:11:56 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:11:56 ... a proposal that was so not personal or not-

Esther Perel 1:12:00 She liked it?

Jay Shetty 1:12:01 Well, I'll tell you what, I'll-

Esther Perel 1:12:01 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:12:01 ... I'll tell you what happened. So, and if anyone's heard this story before, I apologize, but I, I want Esther to have-

Esther Perel 1:12:06 I don't know it, so you can tell me

Jay Shetty 1:12:07 ... have the context. Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:12:08 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:12:09 So we'd been together, I think, at that point for, like, maybe I proposed after, like, a couple of years.

Esther Perel 1:12:14 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:12:15 And so we'd been together. I decided I was gonna propose. We were walking down the bank of the River Thames in London.

Esther Perel 1:12:22 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:12:22 I had an a cappella group jumped out and sing Bruno Mars, "Will You Marry Me?" like marry you to her. They gave her a bouquet of flowers. They performed this amazing number. I got down on one knee. I proposed. We both shed a tear. She said yes. Uh, we then had dinner on the side of the Thames, where I had to kind of finagle a table from a restaurant. I had food that was brought in, but it was cold because everything had gone wrong on the timing. So we ate cold food, which was... We didn't mind. My wife is amazing, so she didn't care, but it, but I was looking at that going, "Hmm." And then we walked around the corner- And we ended up on a white horse-drawn carriage that I'd booked that took us around London on this beautiful carriage, and it was a beautiful trip. And then we got on the train to go back to her parents, and we got home to her parents. Her parents opened the door, and they said, "What happened to you?" to her. Uh, she had hives all over her face because that was the day I discovered that she was allergic to horses, and I didn't know that, and she didn't know that. And I've always looked back and reflected at that story because my wife said yes. She's never complained about it. She was happy with it. But when I really look at it, and as I've got to know her more and more every year, and like you said, I feel like I get to know more of her, new things and old things every year. We've been together for 10 years now, and I still feel like every day I'm discovering something new about her. I realized that that was the most impersonal show of love ever. It wasn't... The song wasn't specific to her. The horse-drawn carriage wasn't specific to her. The, the food was the only thing my wife would care about because she's a big foodie, and that's her world, and it was cold. And I look back at that event and go, "I'm lucky she said yes," but actually, the hives were a reminder to me of how little I knew my wife at that time or, or the pers-

Esther Perel 1:14:08 And how eager you were to impress.

Jay Shetty 1:14:10 How eager I... Exactly. How, how it was a complete show of-

Esther Perel 1:14:12 How old?

Jay Shetty 1:14:13 ... ego. I was, um, 20, maybe, six.

Esther Perel 1:14:17 Okay.

Jay Shetty 1:14:17 Twenty-seven. Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:14:18 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:14:18 Uh, and, and just what a show it was as opposed to a-

Esther Perel 1:14:21 Did you come from traditional families?

Jay Shetty 1:14:24 Uh, I would say we come f- yeah, like, I would say we come from more traditional families, yes. Yeah, definitely. They're, they're modern thinking, but generally traditional overall in the world. Uh, and it was-

Esther Perel 1:14:34 Were they arranged marriages, or were they-

Jay Shetty 1:14:36 My mom and dad were, and pretty much hers was as well. Yeah, pretty much her parents were as well.

Esther Perel 1:14:41 Okay. So that's a major-

Jay Shetty 1:14:42 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:14:43 ... transition. So when you ask me about long-term relationships, I think people who are in an arranged marriage system answer that question very differently-

Jay Shetty 1:14:52 Yes

Esther Perel 1:14:52 ... than people who start with the roman... You know what the research says, right?

Jay Shetty 1:14:56 What does it... I- I've seen bits, but please clarify. Yeah, I don't wanna assume.

Esther Perel 1:14:59 That I, I think it's Dan Ariely's research that-

Jay Shetty 1:15:01 Oh

Esther Perel 1:15:01 ...

Esther Perel 1:15:02 um, people who start with romantic and falling in love and passion are much more likely to then experience a, a dissatisfaction in the relationship-

Jay Shetty 1:15:10 Mm

Esther Perel 1:15:10 ... than the majority of people who start in an arranged situation, which is much more rational. Actually, their satisfaction rises as they get to know each other and develop the fondness and the relationship, and I think this is true if the relationship is good.

Jay Shetty 1:15:24 Yeah, if it's good. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:15:24 But for those for whom it was a really not a good match, it, it must be-

Jay Shetty 1:15:28 Horrific

Esther Perel 1:15:29 ... horrific.

Jay Shetty 1:15:29 Yeah. And I, and I think the reason why I was sharing that story was because I think what I've realized, and you were mentioning this earlier, is that I feel like I found the person who has helped me continue self-evaluation in a way that I would have avoided with someone else or that I would have tried to avoid if I would have had multiple love stories.

Esther Perel 1:15:57 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:15:57 Whereas this life story that I have with my wife currently is just the most purifying and cleansing, detoxifying process internally but in the most fun, loving, and caring way. And I look at that, and I, I think about that often where I think to myself, "I would have had to learn these lessons with anyone, but maybe someone else may not be able to challenge me as much as my wife does with the lack of criticism and complaint and judgment in a safe space with humor," which actually makes it accessible to me, and it's, it's one of these really interesting reflections I wanted to share with you to hear your thoughts on that because I don't think I would... There are so many skills today that I have only because I married this particular person. There are on- there are so many emotional parts of myself that I've been able to discover because of this person. There have been so many, you know-

Esther Perel 1:16:55 You know what you're telling me in some way is you didn't succeed in impressing her.

Jay Shetty 1:17:02 I have never succeeded-

Esther Perel 1:17:03 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:17:03 ... in impressing my wife, and it is the best lesson.

Esther Perel 1:17:05 So that's her, that's her power.

Jay Shetty 1:17:06 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:17:06 You know? I mean, not that you're not impressive to her, that she doesn't appreciate and admire, but you didn't succeed-

Jay Shetty 1:17:13 Till this day. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:17:13 Right. And therefore, her opinion matters.

Jay Shetty 1:17:17 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:17:17 And therefore, she can keep you on your toes, and therefore, she doesn't let you sit on your laurels and get away with stuff, and therefore, she can see you in a more humble way when you come home from having done 40 stage events after another and where you get, you know, clapped the whole time and you kind of lose a sense of, you know, proportions. And that is an extremely... I think that you're very lucky, and not just lucky because you found her, but also because you knew, you knew that you did need someone who challenges you and who can hold hers to you but do it in a way that doesn't feel authoritarian or humiliating or-

Jay Shetty 1:17:56 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:17:56 ... ball-busting, et cetera. And so it creates the right friction.

Jay Shetty 1:18:00 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:18:01 She cares, and she can criticize. She loves, and she can challenge. Sh- you know, it's both end, and that, that holding those tensions in a relationship is, in my mind, very important and very, um, gives a lot of strength and energy to a relationship.

Jay Shetty 1:18:20 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:18:21 Um-

Jay Shetty 1:18:21 I think I... Yeah. Oh, sorry. Please go.

Esther Perel 1:18:22 No, no, that's it. I think the, the... It's your self-awareness of it that is really good. It's like if you had somebody who just looks like that, it would have been a problem. If you had somebody who just did that, it would have been a problem, but you knew that you needed that.

Jay Shetty 1:18:35 Yeah, and I don't think I knew it before we started having that experience, but it, it just became really evident to me that she loves me for who I am, not what I do and, and what I achieve and how I try to impress, for example, and I think that's a great reminder for me to love myself for who I am and not love myself for what I achieve or what I do or what I create, and I think that that is a really I'm like, that's, uh, the great-

Esther Perel 1:19:03 It's very important.

Jay Shetty 1:19:04 Yeah. It's-

Esther Perel 1:19:04 Very

Jay Shetty 1:19:04 ... yeah, to, to have some... Yeah, and, and, and it's also how you perceive it. I think what you're saying is true. Like, I've talked about it with people. I could easily perceive it and people could perceive it and say, "Jay, you're just a pushover. Jay, you're just, you know, making it up. You're making sense of something, and it's bad treatment," or whatever. And I'm like, "Well, no, because I can see that it's done from love and care, and it's humor," as you said. Like, it, it's done from such a special loving place that I feel, that I know, it's a knowingness that it is liberating and it is, it is wonderful. But it's interesting because I think a lot of people may have that experience, but they don't wanna be humble. They don't want to access that point, and I'm fortunate that my, my monk training is, kicks in there and, and allows for that vulnerability and self-reflection and not thinking I'm perfect. Whereas I wonder if that's... We, we're scared to do that because we almost want our partner to make us feel perfect.

Esther Perel 1:19:59 No. I think, I think that this,

Esther Perel 1:20:02 this thing of perfection is, I think we want our partners to recognize us and accept us-

Jay Shetty 1:20:08 But it comes in the f-

Esther Perel 1:20:08 ... in our imperfection

Jay Shetty 1:20:09 ... but it comes in the form of, at least in the beginning, demanding adoration and-

Esther Perel 1:20:14 Yeah, but the beginning-

Jay Shetty 1:20:15 ... and honor

Esther Perel 1:20:15 ... is only the beginning.

Jay Shetty 1:20:16 Yeah. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:20:16 It's one phase of a relationship. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:20:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 1:20:19 You know, I think, uh, my, my friend Terry Real has this beautiful definition. Self-esteem or self-worth or self-confidence is seeing ourself as flawed, imperfect people, and still hold ourselves in high regard. If you actually need to see yourself as perfect-

Jay Shetty 1:20:42 Mm

Esther Perel 1:20:42 ... you lack the confidence. The confidence is the ability to make mistakes and not to, not sleep over it for three weeks because you feel such shame and such, you know, intense attack on your identity. But I have a question from you-

Jay Shetty 1:20:56 Please

Esther Perel 1:20:56 ... for you that from what you've just said, do you feel that these days on both sides of, on all sides of the spectrum, of the gender spectrum, that people are so enraptured with the notion of identity and holding on to the self that they find accepting influence from another person an instant threat to their identity? Like, pushover. Pushover is, is, is like, you know, it, it's, it's a power dynamic instantly when you use that word. You know, if you accept what your wife says, what kind of a man are you, right? You're just a pushover. That's more in the masculine version.

Jay Shetty 1:21:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:21:36 The women have it in the... And but it is along the whole spectrum. Something about the way we are so busy protecting our egos-

Jay Shetty 1:21:44 Mm. Mm

Esther Perel 1:21:45 ... is making everything that involves letting someone else actually have influence over us, which is part of what being in a relationship-

Jay Shetty 1:21:52 Mm

Esther Perel 1:21:52 ... is about-

Jay Shetty 1:21:53 Mm

Esther Perel 1:21:54 ... as an attack.

Jay Shetty 1:21:55 Yeah, I, I mean, I'd love to discuss this with you, and my, my reflection from what you were saying, and I was nodding along because I, there's so much of it that I agree with. I think that what I see is most of us struggle to know ourself when we get into a relationship. So I, I think I'd propose that I don't think most people have a lot of self-awareness when they get into a romantic relationship. So they don't actually have a conscious sense of self-identity. We have a subconscious sense of self-identity in the sense of what our parents taught us and what family and media. We have all this mix of stuff, but we wouldn't... If I ask someone to lay out their top 10 values, they wouldn't be able to do that because they'd be like, "I'm not sure." And what ends up happening, I think, in that scenario is you adopt the values of the other person, and then at some point you go, "Wait a minute, I've just been doing what you want." And you think that person made you adopt their values, but actually you just didn't know yours. And so I think you see that happen in some relationships.

Esther Perel 1:23:00 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:23:01 In other relationships, I think what you're saying is true. People are so definitive about their own self-identity that they go into a relationship going, "I'm not going to get influenced at all by this person." And I think that also happens because we're getting into long-term relationships later in life. So if you're going into a relationship later in life, chances are you actually have, you know who you are and what you wanna do and what you're building and what's important to you. When you're younger, you're less self-aware. When you're older, hopefully you're somewhat more self-aware, and so you're more concrete in your ideology.

Esther Perel 1:23:34 But the opposite could be equally true.

Jay Shetty 1:23:35 The opposite could be equally true.

Esther Perel 1:23:36 When you're young, you think you know everything and you're certain about stuff you have no certainty about.

Jay Shetty 1:23:41 Totally.

Esther Perel 1:23:41 And when you get older, you actually become more flexible because you realize that there isn't one way for everything.

Jay Shetty 1:23:46 Totally. E- exactly, so it can be both ways. And I think overall, I think the point that, at least I think we're trying to get to, which I like, is that it's a bit of both. There's, there's... It's almost like I read... I'm trying to find this poem, and I can't find it ever since I read it.

Esther Perel 1:24:01 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:24:01 It's one of those... And I'm sharing it here because hopefully someone finds it. I read this poem while I was researching, and there was this beautiful poet, and I can't find it. I've like, I've like looked for it and everything. But this poet was talking about how when you are single, you've been building your home with the bricks that you were given, and your home is broken and some of it's beautiful because that's how we are as people. Some parts of our home make sense, and some part of the bricks are falling out. And he said, when you come into a relationship, you want the other person to move into your home. You want them to come to your home, and the other person wants you to go to their home. But actually, what you need to do is take the bricks you both like from your own homes and build a new home together. And I really love that visual, the idea that this unified agreement, which was the language you used, or this idea that you're saying of like, how much do I allow the influence without feeling powerless, but to feel like we're co-creating something. You know, my wife and I have a lot of agreements that they're not rules or contracts, but they're agreements of how we deal with certain things, and it, it's something we've created together. It's not something we adopted from my parents, her parents, or anywhere else. And I feel that if we walked into a relationship and said, "What do we wanna build together? What do we wanna create together? What, what does a good, healthy relationship mean to us?" To me, those questions at least feel empowering as opposed to draining of power.

Esther Perel 1:25:32 One of the complementarities in relationships that, uh, is that we are often drawn to a person who brings characteristics that we are trying to get away from.

Jay Shetty 1:25:45 Mm. So true. So true.

Esther Perel 1:25:48 You understand? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:48 Yeah, so true.

Esther Perel 1:25:49 So it's a b- I mean, it, it, when it's r- dynamic, it's really a, a very beautiful, you know-

Jay Shetty 1:25:55 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:25:56 [laughs] ... kneading of the dough.

Jay Shetty 1:25:58 Yeah. So Esther, throughout our conversation, you've been referencing this new course of yours, which I'm so excited for people to do because I feel like so many of what things we've discovered today with your books and your work-

Esther Perel 1:26:10 Demand practice.

Jay Shetty 1:26:11 Yes, exactly. How do you actually apply it? So please tell us where we can find this course and the name of the course and where it is.

Esther Perel 1:26:16 Turning Conflict into Connection. It's, uh, one hour, eight videos with a fantastic workbook that really not just helps you fight better and more constructively, but also helps you relate better. Because if you have a different attitude toward conflict, you have a whole different relationship.

Jay Shetty 1:26:34 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:26:34 It's on my website, estherperel.com, and it's coming out October 10.

Jay Shetty 1:26:38 Okay, amazing. Well, I recommend everyone who's listening and watching, make sure you go and check out the course. If you've loved this conversation, I know you're gonna get so much value from it, so much insight, and of course, uh, make sure you go and take a look at all of Esther's books as well. So please check those out. I wanna do one last thing, Esther, with you-

Esther Perel 1:26:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:26:54 ... because you did our final five last time.

Esther Perel 1:26:56 Yeah, because when we don't fight, I want you to play.

Jay Shetty 1:26:58 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:26:59 And so first I created the game. I said, "Let's play."

Jay Shetty 1:27:02 I love it. This is Esther's

Jay Shetty 1:27:03 beautiful game, Where Should We Begin? A Game of Stories by Esther Perel. If you don't have this, grab it, too. We're gonna pick a couple of cards and, and have some fun with this. Uh-

Esther Perel 1:27:12 Open it like a chocolate box.

Jay Shetty 1:27:13 Oh, there we ... Oh, like, oh, there we go. There we go. Like a choc-

Esther Perel 1:27:16 I'm Belgian, you know.

Jay Shetty 1:27:16 Do, do, do you know what's really fun?

Esther Perel 1:27:17 This had to be-

Jay Shetty 1:27:17 I love chocolate.

Esther Perel 1:27:18 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:18 So you speak in my language completely.

Esther Perel 1:27:20 We are two. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:21 All right. I'm going to take this out, and we're going to shuffle these cards, and then what do we do, pick one at random?

Esther Perel 1:27:27 Yes, we pick ... Look, this is, you know, relationships are stories.

Jay Shetty 1:27:32 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:27:32 And we tell stories-

Jay Shetty 1:27:34 Yeah

Esther Perel 1:27:34 ... about ourselves to people at every level.

Jay Shetty 1:27:36 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:27:37 Um, and we recreate connection, intimacy, and fun. I-

Jay Shetty 1:27:41 There we go

Esther Perel 1:27:42 ... you pick.

Jay Shetty 1:27:42 This is f- Oh, I'm picking first?

Esther Perel 1:27:43 [laughs] Let's start with you.

Jay Shetty 1:27:44 All right, then you hold it. You shuffle it, too.

Esther Perel 1:27:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:46 Then I'll, to make sure everyone knows that this is truly random. I wanna have some fun, and I love stuff like this. So I love games. I love play. Like, it, me ... One of my wife's and I's favorite things to do is we play a lot of pickleball right now. We love going-

Esther Perel 1:27:57 Will you write to me after you've played with her?

Jay Shetty 1:27:59 ... escape rooms. Yeah, I'm gonna ... This one, I'm gonna ... Yeah, definitely, I'd love to.

Esther Perel 1:28:02 All right.

Jay Shetty 1:28:03 All right. Okay.

Esther Perel 1:28:03 Off you go.

Jay Shetty 1:28:04 Okay.

Esther Perel 1:28:05 If you don't like it, you pick another.

Jay Shetty 1:28:07 Oh, okay. Is that how it works?

Esther Perel 1:28:08 Well, d- it works like now. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:28:10 I'm, I'm gonna do a few. I'll do a few 'cause they're quick.

Esther Perel 1:28:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:13 Uh, so at a party you'll find me is the prompt.

Esther Perel 1:28:16 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:28:17 And so at a party you'll find me finding the one person I can have a deep, meaningful conversation with, sitting in the corner with them and having existential conversations for the whole night, and people may not even know I was at the party.

Esther Perel 1:28:32 That would be me.

Jay Shetty 1:28:32 Really?

Esther Perel 1:28:33 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:28:33 So then we'd just be sitting next to each other.

Esther Perel 1:28:34 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:28:34 Great. I love that. So I'd do that with you. I love it. Awesome. Um, oh, me again.

Esther Perel 1:28:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:39 Oh, me, okay. Oh, you're, like, poking that out to me. This is like ... All right.

Esther Perel 1:28:42 I caught it.

Jay Shetty 1:28:43 Here we go. All right. Oh, wow. If I could change something about the way I was raised, it would be ... So the easy answer, the first thing that came to mind, is I wouldn't change anything because I'm really happy with the human I am today and how my life has gone the way it has.

Esther Perel 1:28:59 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:29:00 I, I really, I really think that is my honest answer, but if I, if I could change something about the way I was raised ...

Esther Perel 1:29:07 And it doesn't just have to be your family.

Jay Shetty 1:29:09 Yeah. I would say it would be, I would have loved earlier on to know that there were so many more careers and paths in the world. So when I met the monks when I was 18 years old, that was the first time my mind was open to that path, but it took me years to recognize that you could have a career in media, or that you could have a career in-

Esther Perel 1:29:29 Do this

Jay Shetty 1:29:29 ... do, do this.

Esther Perel 1:29:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:29:30 Like, I had never thought, I never knew any of that. Like, I literally thought there were, like, three ... It sounds ridiculous, but I was so limited in my thinking growing up because of what I was surrounded by. I would change that. I want people to know that there are so many different ... I didn't know you could be a therapist. I didn't know you could be a neuroscientist. I didn't know you could be any- I would have wanted to be a neuroscientist if I knew that existed. I-

Esther Perel 1:29:53 I didn't know I can be a therapist outside my office.

Jay Shetty 1:29:57 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:29:57 I've worked in a field that is very confidential. I could never talk about what I did, and through the podcast, I'm able to work with people who are not patients, will never be. And so I can actually bring what is happening between the four walls to the world and bring the world inside the office, and you can be a fly on the wall in someone else's session.

Jay Shetty 1:30:18 Amazing. So just to remind everyone, the game is called Where Should We Begin? Uh, you can also order the game as well, play with your friends-

Esther Perel 1:30:26 With your friends

Jay Shetty 1:30:26 ... and family and your, yeah

Esther Perel 1:30:26 ... with your dates, with your partner. You grab a few cards, you put in your pocket. You can leave the box-

Jay Shetty 1:30:32 Yes

Esther Perel 1:30:32 ... and off you go into story land.

Jay Shetty 1:30:34 I love it, and you can surprise someone with chocolates in it, too, seeing as it's your favorite.

Esther Perel 1:30:37 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:30:38 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:30:38 You can mix, you can mix and match.

Jay Shetty 1:30:40 I love it. Esther, it's been such an honor, honestly, talking to you. I, I feel so ... It's really interesting when you talk to someone and you just feel like you've immersed yourself so deeply in this space for so many decades, and the wisdom shines through your words. It shines through your empathy, at the same time, your assertiveness. I am so grateful that you do what you do for the world, honestly. I, I learn so much from you. I learn so much from your work. I'm a, I'm a student of your work, and I honestly feel humbled and grateful that I've got to spend this time with you, and I highly encourage everyone to go and immerse themselves in your world in all ways. So thank you so much for the gift-

Esther Perel 1:31:17 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:31:17 ... that you offer the world. I really mean that.

Esther Perel 1:31:19 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:31:19 Yeah. Thank you.

Esther Perel 1:31:20 Means a lot.

Jay Shetty 1:31:20 I mean it. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you're going to love my conversation with Matthew Hussey on how to get over your ex and find true love in your relationships.

Esther Perel 1:31:31 People should be compassionate to themselves, but extend that compassion to your future self because truly extending your compassion to your future self is doing something that gives him or her a shot at a happy and a peaceful life