Erin McGoff: How to be Instantly More Confident at Work

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Why workplace communication matters + Erin McGoff joins the show

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      There is one place that is probably more important in your life than any other place, and it's the place that you spend the most time, the workplace. Today, I've brought you somebody who knows the workplace like nobody else. She's the most followed content creator in, in specifically career and workplace strategies, and I want to talk to her today, Erin McGoff. Erin, thank you so much for coming.

   2. EMErin McGoff0:26

      Jefferson, thank you so much for having me. It's so great to get to talk in person after exchanging so many DMs.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:33

      Yeah, [laughs] I know.

   4. EMErin McGoff0:34

      [laughs]

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:34

      We were, like, encouraging each other along the way-

   6. EMErin McGoff0:36

      Yeah [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher0:36

      ... as we were each, uh, growing. I know you have-

   8. EMErin McGoff0:38

      Yeah

   9. JFJefferson Fisher0:39

      ... like over six million followers on, across all your platforms, which is incredible, and it's been really fun to cheer each other on along the way. So congratulations with everything.

   10. EMErin McGoff0:50

       Oh my gosh, congratulations to you. Your book is fantastic. It's on my bookshelf. Um, and I have to-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher0:55

       Oh [laughs]

   12. EMErin McGoff0:55

       ... say real quick, my mom is your biggest fan ever, and she loves-

   13. JFJefferson Fisher1:00

       [laughs]

   14. EMErin McGoff1:00

       ... your content so much, so shout out to Mom.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher1:02

       Oh, shout out to Mom. What's, what's Mom's name?

   16. EMErin McGoff1:05

       Claire. She's the one from Texas-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher1:06

       Claire

   18. EMErin McGoff1:06

       ... from the Panhandle. Mm-hmm.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher1:07

       Oh, that's right, that's right. Claire, love that you're from Texas. Thanks for following me. [laughs] That's awesome.

   20. EMErin McGoff1:12

       [laughs]

2. 1:12 – 3:40

   Confidence starts with self-talk: “Be your own best friend”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:12

      Um, this is one of my favorite kind of conversations when I can talk to other creators who are s- similar in space because it can be a very lonely space when you're getting into it. And this is a question that I ask just about every one of my guests that I have, and it's the first question. Specifically with communication, Erin, how does Erin McGoff talk to herself? Like, I want you to share with people the, how do you encourage yourself? What's the self-talk like before we start talking about how to engage with everybody else?

   2. EMErin McGoff1:48

      Oh, so important. The way that you communicate with yourself is the most important person you will ever communicate with is yourself. I always say, like, my key to confidence is just being your own best friend. You know-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher2:01

      Mm

   4. EMErin McGoff2:01

      ... talking to yourself the way that you would talk to a best friend. So, you know, if I look in the mirror and I hear that thought of, "Oh, I don't look very good today," I imagine if this, my friend was saying that and what I would say to her, and I'd be like, "You're ridiculous. Like, it's okay. Just go take a shower." You know? So I like to keep it real with myself, but also give myself so much empathy and compassion because w- we're oftentimes our worst critic. So be your own best friend.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:25

      Yeah.

   6. EMErin McGoff2:25

      I'm my own best friend.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:26

      Be your own best friend. Do you hear that, everybody? I love that. I think that's wonderful. And do you, do you say it, like, in the mirror or when you're driving to yourself, or do you imagine a duplicate of yourself when you're thinking this?

   8. EMErin McGoff2:37

      [laughs] Mm, yeah. I probably sound a little bit crazy, but yeah. I mean, after a while, it just became a habit. Like, you look in the mirror or, you know, y- you hear those critical thoughts of yourself where, "Oh, I sounded bad in that meeting. Oh, those people didn't like me." And then you just respond to yourself and you're like, "Those people probably liked you. Like, there, there's no indicator that they didn't like you." And then after a while, that just becomes one singular voice. I know it sounds kind of split personality-ish, but I truly, I noticed it the other day, I'm like, wow, I'm actually really kind to myself. I keep it real. You know, you can't just be worshiping yourself all the time. You have to keep it real with yourself, but you, like, you would keep it real with a best friend, you know? You don't just worship a best friend and constantly, [laughs] you know-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher3:19

      Yeah

   10. EMErin McGoff3:19

       ... boost them up and up and up, but you need to, to be real with them sometimes. So that's why I like that kind of saying, be your own best friend.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher3:25

       I like that, and I think it's a healthy balance, too. You can, you can hype them up. At the same time, you have to be like, "Hey, listen, I know you think you're great. It, [laughs] w- I need to, I need to give you the truth." So I think that's, I think that's a very-

   12. EMErin McGoff3:36

       Get your butt to the gym. Yeah. [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher3:37

       Yeah, exactly. You gotta get going. Get out of bed. Get going.

   14. EMErin McGoff3:40

       Yeah. Mm.

3. 3:40 – 6:13

   Youngest-of-six lessons: quick thinking, humor, and managing up

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:40

      Um, Erin is the most followed career advice content creator out there. Before we talk about some strategies, I understand you're the youngest of six kids?

   2. EMErin McGoff3:52

      I am, yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:54

      Yeah, that's, the, uh, so what's, like, the age difference between them all? And I'm the oldest of four-

   4. EMErin McGoff3:59

      Oh, really?

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:59

      ... so hearing this perspective is really cool for me.

   6. EMErin McGoff4:02

      Oh, that's so funny. Um, yeah, I'm the youngest of six. We're all about two and a half years apart, so there's, like, a 12-year gap between me and the oldest sibling.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher4:10

      That's, that's incredible. That's awesome. And growing up, you know, what did you find, how, how did you think that shaped your communication and your drive growing up now?

   8. EMErin McGoff4:23

      That's a great question. I think I'm a typical youngest child. You have to learn how to get a word in, and that's why I think I speak so quickly, [laughs] is because, and have a sense of humor. A lot of youngest children have a sense of humor because we're just trying to get our word in and trying to get attention. So I definitely learned how to, like, think really quick on my feet, be pithy and concise because you're trying to, you know, just get a word in. And, and to be fair, my parents were really good about giving everybody equal attention and time and being very fair about things. [laughs] But, uh, yeah, you definitely learn how to be very quick on your feet.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher4:57

      I can, I can definitely see that, and I think that's why your career advice content does so well, is because you have, as you know, we have a very short window of time to give a whole lot of information to people. And, like, with my followers, we get a lot of value out of what you could say were scripts. Like how I would, I tell people, "Instead of this word, I want you to flip it and use this word," or maybe the structure of a sentence, I want them to reverse it or replace a certain phrase. And so I could see how, you know, as the youngest, getting that word in, being really quick on your feet is very strategic when it comes to communicating in the workplace.

   10. EMErin McGoff5:38

       Yeah. Oh, definitely. And yeah, being the youngest, you're always talked down to as well, especially of six. You know, I was the bottom of eight people, and so everybody's always talking down to you, so you really learn how to kind of, like, manage up from a young age and, like, talk up to people, and I was definitely always treated older than I was, I think. So people always told me I was mature for my age. Um, so yeah, I would say it very, very much affected me in a positive way growing up in that big, big tribe. Um, but yeah, I definitely don't wanna have six kids. I don't know how anybody can manage [laughs] that this day and age, but, um, but they do. [laughs]

4. 6:13 – 8:17

   Where Erin’s advice comes from: research, DMs, and a “mosaic” of wisdom

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:13

      Um, all right. So as the most followed career advice content creator, where do you draw your experience from, Erin?

   2. EMErin McGoff6:20

      [laughs] So, so many different places. I mean, every morning I listen to, you know, business podcasts, I read studies and research, but I also just talk to people. Every single day in my DMs I'm conversing with recruiters, business owners, and especially job seekers, and I just like to be like kind of a boots-on-the-ground person listening. And then when it comes to all the, the advice that I share, it's truly just wisdom that I've stolen from so many people in my life. You know, I, I listen to TED Talks, but I also just will, like, give advice that I heard from my dad or from, you know, my aunt or something like that. So it's truly just a mosaic, um, and I basically just look to some of the wisest minds in the world. Uh, I listen to what I hear repeated over and over again, and then the cherry on top is kind of what I've experienced in my own life. I don't really give advice from personal experience. I more like to research a variety of sources and then kind of boil it down and then put my personal experience kind of as a cherry on top. So I write a lot of my content, like, through friends who work in different industries, um, and stuff like that. So yeah, it's really, um, uh, my, my content's a lot more researched, I think, than people realize.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher7:30

      Oh, that's awesome. Very cool. So mine, I'm like the opposite. [laughs] Uh, mine is 0% researched, um, and all, you know, from, from my world in the communication and litigation courtroom world, whereas you are more of a, a encyclopedia, like library resource of all the tools that people can use and go to when it comes to the workplace and career, right?

   4. EMErin McGoff7:54

      Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, like, we're both giving subjective advice, you know? So y- you might say one thing, another career expert might say another thing, so yeah, like, as much as I like to pretend it's objective and research-based, like, at the end of the day, it really is just subjective.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher8:09

      Oh yeah, it all is. I mean, that's why I end with, "So try that." [laughs]

   6. EMErin McGoff8:12

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher8:13

      It's, it's not, it's not you must do this. It's just you can try it if you like it.

   8. EMErin McGoff8:17

      I love it.

5. 8:17 – 12:35

   Answering “What’s your greatest weakness?” with the 10/90 rule

   1. JFJefferson Fisher8:17

      If you don't like it, you don't have to. I wanna get into a topic, Erin, that I know that anybody in the workplace has dealt with before and continues to deal with, and that's specific to interviews, where I know you're very, very versed in interviews. This is the question I wanna ask. How do you handle the what's your greatest weakness interview question?

   2. EMErin McGoff8:43

      Yeah. Man, can you believe they're still asking that question? [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher8:47

      I, I can't believe it. I can't, actually.

   4. EMErin McGoff8:48

      [laughs] Yeah. Well, there's a, there's a couple things. So the first thing is to understand the question behind the question, is what I say. So when they're asking what is your greatest weakness, they're not actually asking, like, about what your greatest weakness is. Like, mine is Ben & Jerry's Half Baked ice cream. Like, they're not really curious about that. What they're really asking is, what are your red flags? Are you going to reveal something to me that I might need to know? Also, it's kind of a signal of how professional you are, because if you're caught off guard by this question or if you answer it, quote-unquote, wrong, it kind of signals to them that you don't, like, know that that was an interview question that people ask and you didn't know how to answer it. So it's kind of part of this hidden curriculum and secret language of work. Um, so there's that. So they're really asking, like, how well can you professionally articulate yourself? So the question's about articulation. And then the second half of it is how to answer, and I always teach something called the 10/90 rule. So you should spend only 10% of your answer naming the weakness, and then the remaining 90% talking about how you're working on it. So you're really talking about self-awareness. I'm aware of this weakness within myself. Here's why it's important, and here's what I'm doing to address it, and you know what? It's really working out so far. Um, and you don't wanna name something, like, you know, a lot of people will say, "Oh, well, I'm a perfectionist," and you'll get an immediate eye roll. Um, you don't wanna name something that's a character trait. Like, you don't wanna say, like, "I'm a perfectionist," um, or, or, uh, "This is just the way that I am." You know, you wanna name something kind of tangible that you're working on. And n- something else that's really important is that it needs to be real, but don't have it be directly hindering... Like, it shouldn't hinder your ability to do the job, you know? Um, so, you know, delegation is safe for a lot of people. Not if you're a manager. Don't say delegation. [laughs] But, uh, you know, something that I'm currently working to improve are my delegation skills. So each week I try to delegate one task and, uh, you know, I keep a sticky note next to my laptop and it's really helping me remember that, so.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:51

      And so I think that brings up such a good point. When anybody, a supervisor, somebody interviewing you, is asking that greatest weakness question, what I hear you saying is you need to see the issue behind the issue. They don't really care about your weakness. They're wondering where can, [laughs] where are the, where are the problems with you? Where are those? Can you talk about those red flags? And I love how it's you need to talk about something that's concrete, and preferably something you're working on. So it's not like the, "My, my weakness is I'm, I'm just too honest," or, you know, [laughs] "I'm, I'm too much of a hard worker sometimes." Like, you try and use that as a compliment.

   6. EMErin McGoff11:30

      [laughs]

   7. JFJefferson Fisher11:31

      Um, I think that can definitely go wrong. "I'm a perfectionist. Yeah, I just do everything perfectly." That's, that's all you're saying. Uh, but if you can put it in terms of, like you said, the I have a hard time delegating sometimes, or I occasionally try to work too fast and that might cause me to miss a few things. I think the, uh... What I also pick, take away from this, Erin, is when you can have that moment of honesty to say, "It's not necessarily my weakness, but this is a thing I'm working on," as, uh, I think that is, shows a lot of self-awareness, that that's what really employers are looking for.

   8. EMErin McGoff12:12

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're really looking... 'Cause I'll post an example and people will say, "Well, you shouldn't tell an employer that, you know, you're, you don't have a sense of humor or that you're too blunt." And I'm like, "Well, that's kind of the point, is that you tell them how you're working on it, and how you're self-aware, and how you understand." And also, you're not telling them a deal breaker, [laughs] you know?

   9. JFJefferson Fisher12:29

      Yeah.

   10. EMErin McGoff12:29

       Don't tell them you're working on your sense of humor if you're applying to be a comedy writer, you know? Read the room.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher12:34

       Yeah. [laughs]

   12. EMErin McGoff12:35

       [laughs]

6. 12:35 – 15:49

   Hiring manager perspective + a simple confidence word swap

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:35

      I think that's a great point. And see, I, so I have a, a law firm- And we have about 15 people. And then I also-- Most people don't know this, but I also have a restaurant and a coffee shop.

   2. EMErin McGoff12:47

      No.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher12:47

      Yeah.

   4. EMErin McGoff12:48

      No way.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher12:48

      And so, um, yeah, I, I've, uh, had it for I think six years now. And, um-

   6. EMErin McGoff12:53

      Oh my gosh. How do you do this all?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher12:54

      But I don't know, Erin. Don't ask me.

   8. EMErin McGoff12:57

      [laughs] And you have kids.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher12:58

      I just do it. And I got kids and a wife and a family and everybody. And so yeah, the-- I've hired a lot of people, that being said, and I've also had to let go many people. And often what I find so valuable for people that are wanting to get hired is when they admit kind of the rougher edges of their personality. 'Cause I'd much rather them be honest with me upfront, and then later on, than later on finding out, oh, they're not really who they said that they were. So if somebody can admit upfront the thing that they're working on, so if it's working on slowing down my pace, I'm working on paying more attention to detail, I'm, I'm paying attention to, you know, how sometime maybe I'm a little bit too blunt, maybe I'm too direct. The... I think those are all things that are natural and normal. I go, "Oh, okay. Very cool." Well, now it also informs me how to interact with you and how you, um, you know, some people like to be, need to be kind of coddled in a way, like they have the, you need to kind of hold their hand. And some people, they need the, they need the tough love.

   10. EMErin McGoff14:09

       Totally. Yeah. Um, that's something else that I teach is just whenever you go into a job interview, you wanna think of the desired, [clears throat] the desired result. So you wanna think of what you want the recruiter to think after you're done answering, and you just named it. You want the recruiter to think, "Oh yeah, I struggle with that too. That's fine." Like, that's what you want them to think, so you need to craft your answer in a way where, like, it's just something that they can say, "Oh yeah, like, that's, that's not a deal breaker. That's fine. They're working on it."

   11. JFJefferson Fisher14:38

       Today's episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I love Cozy Earth. I like talking about them. I like having them as a sponsor because I wear their stuff. I am wearing Cozy Earth pants right now. It is raining cats and dogs outside, and these are athletic type pants that I really, really like. So if you know anybody who works, uh, in the office and you're always wanting to wear something on the go, Cozy Earth has clothes. It's really great for any kind of weather. I wear these to the office. I wear these at home, wherever it is. cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. cozyearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. My only tip that I have that I like for interviews in my own arsenal is using, uh, confident. Instead of saying, "I think that I'd be good," or, "I believe I'd be good," it's, "I'm confident that I'd be good." Because then the interviewer's like, "Oh, well then this person sounds confident." And then that's what they write right underneath your name in their notes.

   12. EMErin McGoff15:40

       It's such a great tip. You know, instead of saying, "Well, I, I think I'd be good at this," "I'm confident I'd be good at this." Just throwing the word confident in there. Beautiful tip. Perfect tip.

7. 15:49 – 17:51

   Dealing with passive-aggressive coworkers: don’t take it personally; get curious

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:49

      Yeah, they're gonna... They... It's funny how just using words naturally relates that, that value item to them. The, um... Here's another question that I've- I'm very curious about specific with your expertise in the workplace. How do you handle a passive-aggressive person at work?

   2. EMErin McGoff16:08

      Oh, that's really tough. You know, I think there's kind of two categories when it comes to passive-aggressive people. There's one category where it's affecting you and your work and your ability to complete your duties and responsibilities, and then there's another category where they don't affect your work at all. It's just a- annoying. Um, and so my overarching advice when dealing with anybody difficult at work is just to not take it personally. [laughs] Like, I think it's hard when you're at work and somebody's giving you a little attitude and, you know, to get all festered and flustered and, you know, to get mad at them. But, you know, don't get mad. Just get curious.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher16:51

      Mm.

   4. EMErin McGoff16:51

      You know? Think about how, like, why are they this way? Why are they so miserable? And you talk a lot about passive aggressiveness. I wanna hear your answer as well. But when people are passive-aggressive, it's because they lack an ability to communicate like an adult and professionally. Um, and I think there are some instances where actually passive-aggressive behavior or passive behavior is okay. Sometimes people might be trying to hint to you something. So something that I like to ask if you're not sure if somebody's being passive-aggressive is, "Oh, did you mean that genuinely, or were you trying to hint at something?" Because you actually never know. Somebody might mean something really genuinely, but you're, you're insecure about what's going on, so you're taking it in a passive-aggressive way. Um, or they might be 100% just being a jerk and just being passive-aggressive. Wha- so when you ask them, "Hey, did you mean that genuinely, or were you trying to hint at something?" Then they either have to confront, "No, I meant that genuinely," or they have to say, "No, I was actually hinting at something." [laughs]

8. 17:51 – 21:20

   Jefferson’s tools for passive aggression: clarify the subtext without fighting fire

   1. JFJefferson Fisher17:51

      I think passive aggressiveness may be one of the most frustrating things in the workplace, and we have a bad habit, too, of, uh, reading it in somebody's email or their Slack message or Teams message or whatever. And what you just highlighted is exactly right, that these people... And by the way, when I say these people, it's me included. It's everybody. We, we all have these moments. Yeah, we all have these moments where I'll say something passively, and I know it's passive-aggressive. And, and in that moment, you know what? I don't really care. I'm just feeling passive-aggressive. And it is nice to have people that don't take it personally. Like, as somebody who's been passive-aggressive, which we all have, I can see and I appreciate the people who do not take it personally. Instead, when you're able to ask, just like you said, the, "Do you mean this genuinely?" What I like to give is, "Should I read into that?" So is, should I read into that? Should I read into that comment? Should I read into this? Or, um, even asking them to say something around getting them to explain more of what they, they meant. Can you tell me more about that? They will find a way to kind of like get over the hump and hopefully be more direct with you. I find that it's people that naturally their whole life, Erin, have, have been pretty passive aggressive because they've seen that growing up. Most likely it's a, a family member, a mom, a dad, a somebody who in their life has naturally shown them that to get what you want somehow you need to be passive aggressive and hint at it and then resent people for not giving it to you because you feel like you deserve it in that moment. But passive aggressive comments certainly don't serve you, and they, they w- find ways to conflict and, and constrict communication. When you need to get something done, when something's on a deadline, you know, we've had those people say, "Go on, get it out." You know, "Sp- if you got a problem, spit it out." I find that that, that makes it worse most of the time.

   2. EMErin McGoff19:58

      Yeah, because they're, they're defensive and they're insecure and that's how they're communing in a pa- communicating in a passive aggressive manner. So if you fight fire with fire, um, yeah, it typically doesn't work out. [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher20:09

      Yeah, I think, I think that's exactly right. When any time that somebody's been, somebody's being passive aggressive and you say something like, "Hey, if you got something to say, spit it out," m- it just makes them backpedal even further. It's not gonna embrace them. It's not going to get them to open up in any way. But when you can say things like, like Chris Voss, who I've had on and who's a great friend, he has this phrase that I love and it's, "Sounds like you have a reason for saying that. Sounds like you have a reason for saying that."

   4. EMErin McGoff20:41

      Mm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher20:41

      "Seems, sounds like-"

   6. EMErin McGoff20:42

      That sounds kind of-

   7. JFJefferson Fisher20:42

      "... there's a reason you'd say that."

   8. EMErin McGoff20:43

      I'm a little scared right now thinking of Chris Voss saying that to me.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher20:46

      Well, he's a scary guy. He's a scary guy.

   10. EMErin McGoff20:47

       [laughs] He is scary.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher20:48

       Yeah, and he has this accent and it's like almost mafia like. He's like, "You sound like you got a reason for saying that."

   12. EMErin McGoff20:53

       [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher20:53

       Like, oh my gosh, I don't know.

   14. EMErin McGoff20:54

       Hey, that was good. [laughs]

   15. JFJefferson Fisher20:55

       Yeah. Do you like that?

   16. EMErin McGoff20:56

       Yeah, that was good.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher20:56

       Well, I spent five days in New York, so, um-

   18. EMErin McGoff20:58

       [laughs]

   19. JFJefferson Fisher20:58

       ... now I feel like I have a dual citizenship open-

   20. EMErin McGoff21:01

       [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher21:02

       ... uh, in New York. But you know, when you're getting... It's the using a question to find something out. I usually will ask, "Should I read into that?"

   22. EMErin McGoff21:10

       Mm. Yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher21:11

       "Should I, should I read into that comment?"

   24. EMErin McGoff21:12

       And I think tone-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher21:13

       And-

   26. EMErin McGoff21:13

       ... with that is really important 'cause it could be a little-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher21:15

       Yeah

   28. EMErin McGoff21:15

       ... should I read into that, you know?

   29. JFJefferson Fisher21:17

       Yeah.

   30. EMErin McGoff21:17

       But you wanna ask genuinely. Yeah.

9. 21:20 – 23:29

   What people ask Erin most: relationship scripts + validation to act

   1. JFJefferson Fisher21:20

      Yeah. I think you're, I think you're spot on. And even the what- the, your suggestion of did you mean that genuinely, most people don't. They just will kind of start to explain more and more of, of what they, they meant. What do you find, Erin, in, in your work, and you have over six million followers across your platform, what do you find most people come to you with when they say, "Erin, I'm struggling with X, Y, and Z"?

   2. EMErin McGoff21:47

      Two things. Um, 100% of people who come to me, 99% come for two things. Um, the first thing is interpersonal relationship dynamics. So they know what they feel and they know what they want to say, they just don't know how to say it, hence why both of our accounts have been so popular, is because people don't want to cause conflict and they don't want to say the wrong thing and they just wanna be understood. And oftentimes, like you said, our, our childhood, the way we grew up, the way we saw communication styles, the way we learned how to communicate, it leads to an inability to be able to communicate properly as an adult. So learning the proper words can help us communicate better. So that's one thing, is they just want to learn, "How do I tell my boss I'm quitting?" I get a lot of people who are just really anxious. "How do I tell my coworker that they're micromanaging me? How do I tell my boss that they're MIA and that's negatively affecting my work?" Or h- you know, "How do I say that I'm burnt out?" All of these things. And then the second thing that I see r- most common is validation. People know what they wanna do, they think they know what they wanna say, and they just need a little kick in the butt. [laughs] I just need to scoot them, scoot them on, and I do a lot of that. I say, "You know what? You sound like you know what you're doing. You sound like you know what you, you want to do, and I think you should just go do it." So that, those are pretty much the, the two things.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher23:07

      Oh, those are awesome. One that caught my attention and one, a question I've answered, um, in emails from people specifically is the how do I tell my boss that I'm leaving. How do I tell my boss that I'm leaving? So I'm gonna ask... I'll ask you that, Erin. How do you tell your boss or supervisor that you're leaving your job?

10. 23:29 – 25:56

    How to quit your job professionally: transactional reality, gratitude, and grace

    1. EMErin McGoff23:29

       Yeah, how to quit your job. You know, something that's so interesting with quitting your job is that it's both extremely professional and kind of personal. We spend most of our waking hours at work. You know, I always say unless you're a trust fund baby or a sugar baby or I guess a regular baby, um-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher23:45

       [laughs]

    3. EMErin McGoff23:45

       ... you're gonna spend most of your, most of your waking hours at work. Um, and so work is very personal despite, you know, us trying to separate them. It, it is your life. Life is linear. Um, so I always remind people that when you're quitting a job it's a transactional relationship. The, they hired you to do a job, you did a job and they paid you, and now you're moving on to a new job, and that's, that's it. Um, now if you like your boss a lot or if you like your boss just a normal amount, they're a normal boss, d- don't be afraid to tell them that. Like, be appreciative, have some gratitude. Um, but you know, if maybe you didn't like your boss, you didn't like the work environment, I would still encourage you to leave the job with grace and professionalism. It can feel good in the moment to, you know, stick it to the man and tell them how you feel and get all angry and flustered, but honestly, it's a waste of your energy and a year from now you're gonna feel really regretful that you did that because the world is actually much smaller than people realize. And you come across people. You think that your boss just stayed at that job and you can curse them out and leave, but- You know, unbeknownst to you, they're your new client at your new company. So, like, you just have no idea. You wanna have good karma. You want to leave things in good standing, and that's to your benefit. A lot of the times when I tell people and I encourage them to leave with grace and professionalism, uh, they're like, "Well, you know, they deserve blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "This isn't about them. This is actually just about you and your mental health." I highly encourage you, if you are leaving an environment which stirs up a lot of anger in you or feelings, go get it out. Like, write that Glassdoor review. You know, do that exit interview. Go to a kickboxing class. Get, get out your feelings. Um, but that conversation when you're leaving should be done with grace. It should be quick. Um, you should arrange it on the calendar. Uh, you know, Friday afternoon is usually when most people do it. And remember, it's not personal. It's just professional. Your boss, you are not the first person to quit. Uh, you're not the last person that will- they'll have quit on them. Um, but again, if you had a good working relationship with your boss, tell them, you know, "I really appreciate working with you. The only thing I'll accept, you know, is an open door if I ever come crawling back to you, and I hope that we cross paths again in the future." You know? You never know.

11. 25:56 – 30:00

    Resignation playbook: schedule it, keep integrity, frame it as your career path

    1. JFJefferson Fisher25:56

       I think that's a great technique. So let's... I wanna put this in, um, a box for us, for the listener right now. Anybody who've, you are thinking right now that you need to leave your job. You've been thinking about it. You wanna go onto something else. Let's talk about how to, to do that. Number one, what I'm hearing from Erin is you make time for it. It's not a spur of the moment conversation. It's not something that you just wanna do on a whim. You actually wanna set aside specific time, m- meaning you're gonna ask that supervisor or, or whoever, "Hey, I'd like to ta- have some talk time with you. I'd like to visit with you for about five to 10 minutes or so on X date." Do I got that right, Erin?

    2. EMErin McGoff26:36

       Mm-hmm. Yep.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher26:38

       Awesome. So number two, what I'm hearing is when you need to speak with them, you don't wanna do it in terms of saying, "Well, I'm just gonna blow this place up. I'm gonna flip tables. I'm gonna, you know, I, I'm going to l- make sure they remember me." Even if they're, it's a horrible toxic environment, what I pull from you, Erin, is you never want to give them a reason to say, "This is why we let her go, because of this." In other words, you wanna leave with your head high rather than coming out of it, and let's say you just ran them upside, one side and down the other. You wanna do it from a position of always maintaining your integrity. Do I... Are we good there?

    4. EMErin McGoff27:23

       Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher27:23

       Do I have it right so far?

    6. EMErin McGoff27:23

       Yep, you are. And, and your dignity, yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher27:26

       Yeah. I think because at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's yours. I love what you said. It's not about them and what they've done. It's about you and where you're going.

    8. EMErin McGoff27:33

       Exactly.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher27:34

       Three, what I- I'm pulling away is that whenever you speak to this person, you wanna make sure that instead of just focusing specifically on I am leaving this job, this, this position, this very mo- micro moment, you need to discuss it with them in terms of a bigger macro element of this is where I'm going in my career. So when you can use words like career or journey or my path or this is my trajectory, then they feel less like this is one little moment, but they are now helping you along that path. And then they'd be much more open to, to saying, "Hey, great job." They're gonna encourage you, "Hey, I know you're gonna have a great, you know, career, have a lot more going on," rather than you just focusing on, "Hey, I, I'm, I'm quitting this job. Bye," and then they're out. I think it's, uh, I think that's gonna be, uh, really helpful for a lot of people, Erin.

    10. EMErin McGoff28:33

        Absolutely. Yeah, we think that it's just a door that we're shutting, but really it's, it's not. The ca- your career is fluid. You never know where you're gonna go. A lot of the times people go, go back to their old job, you know, a few years later. So yeah, just keep that door open and, and like you said, h- you know, bring them on as an ally so that they can encourage you to move on to your next, the next part of your journey.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher28:53

        Yeah. I think that's exactly right. I never feel like, even when people have wronged me, if I can leave that relationship or leave that place, even with just, um, just waving at it in the rear view mirror, like that just... It's, it's, it's gone. On to the next thing. See ya.

    12. EMErin McGoff29:10

        On to the next.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher29:11

        It's gonna be much better, uh, for you and your own mental health, and that's exactly what Erin's point, point is here. It's not about what all they've done and you need to have your sense of justice, and you need to get revenge on them and just let it all out. You can let it out, but do it on your own terms. It's not... You releasing it all to them is not gonna do any good. Not gonna do any good. You're already leaving. So instead, don't give them a reason for why they go, "Yeah, you know what? We didn't really like Erin. She t- I mean, she's a jerk," because you just justified that in how-

    14. EMErin McGoff29:42

        Exactly

    15. JFJefferson Fisher29:42

        ... you ended that with them. Instead, it's, it's about you and how you're gonna leave that. I think that's, um, I think that's a wonderful piece of advice for anybody wanting to get out of where they're going and where they wanna be in the workplace. Erin, thank you very much for that.

    16. EMErin McGoff29:59

        Yeah, of course.

12. 30:00 – 34:13

    Asking for a raise: think like your manager and make it easy to say yes

    1. JFJefferson Fisher30:00

       When you feel like people are, um, specifically supervisors, like you're asking for a raise or you're asking for something that you want from a supervisor, what's the best way to handle that?

    2. EMErin McGoff30:13

       Oh, I love this question, um, especially since a lot of my advice is for people being managed, and I'd love to give more advice for managers. [laughs] Um, but typically when I post those videos, you know, there's less managers than people being managed, so anyway, the comments always get interesting. Um, but anytime you're going to a supervisor or manager or somebody senior to you, I want you to imagine that you're them. [laughs] Like, we see these people as, "Oh, well, they're above us. They have it all figured out. Like, they have more control than me. This is a weird power dynamic." But at the end of the day, they probably have a boss too who has a boss too who has a boss too, and they have dirty laundry at home. They have to call their grandma. Like, they're stressed out about paying off their student loans. Like, they're, they're looking for a new job. They're probably also looking for a raise. Like, they're just a person at the end of the day. So anytime that somebody comes to me and they're like, "Hey, I wanna go to my manager and talk to them about this," I always tell them, "Imagine that you were that manager and-" You know, somebody that you manage was coming to you and asking you that question. How would you want them to ask you that question when you have a million other things going on? And yes, it's their job to supervise or manage you, so you know, don't get it twisted. That's part of their job. But they have a lot going on, you know? And so how can you present this in a way where it's not a battle. It's not, you know, "Give me this vacation or I quit," but rather how can we work together, you know, to, to coordinate schedules. Um, because at the end of the day, like managers, it, it is a stressful job, especially middle managers, when you have to report to your boss above you and then cater to people underneath you. It's a very thankless job, so I always encourage people, just try to step in their shoes, think about everything they have going on, and how you can make this an easy yes for them. Get to yes, you know? The desired outcome is them saying, "Yeah, you can take that extra vacation day. That's no problem." How can you get them to say that? So think about it backwards.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher32:02

       Hmm. That's so good. I, I love that. And you know from my world, I preach that the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. And that, that goes for your managers. Most managers are just employees that have just been advanced. I mean, and that's all really anybody is unless they're the founder of the company in some way.

    4. EMErin McGoff32:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher32:21

       They're you. And so you go, "Okay, how do I, how do I handle that?" It's so funny how all of a sudden when you become a manager, people's brains kind of get rewired, where it's now an us against them. Like I remember, uh, coming up in my law firm, the first one I was at, big defense firm, you're an associate as you start, and then you become a partner. And when you're an associate, you're like, "Oh, the partners never do this, the partners never do that," and you just have like this collective, "The partners don't understand me." And then all of a sudden, um, when you become a partner, you're like, "Oh, these associates, can they just stop whining?"

    6. EMErin McGoff32:58

       [laughs]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher32:58

       Like, you just... Like it's, it, it happens like overnight. You're all of a sudden like, "Oh, these, these associates, jeez Louise." [laughs] And you start-

    8. EMErin McGoff33:05

       [laughs]

    9. JFJefferson Fisher33:05

       ... just this mindset shift s- um, that's so easy to do. And the same play- same thing happens where- wherever you're at. I love the, this idea of remembering they're just people. And, uh, a tip that I like to, to give people that are dealing with ones that are above them is this idea of when you ask them questions, if you want a raise or whatever it is, you become almost the student to them. So if you can make them feel like a teacher by asking questions of, "So h- how, how did you get to your position?" Or, "What's the best way you think for me to... If I'm interested in a raise, what would, what would you do if you were in my shoes?" So when you can try and like put them in a position and make them feel good of, you know, "I see where you're, you're at, and I'd love to be where you're at, you know, sooner than later. How, how did you get to where you are?" And you kind of get them to tell their story of what they did and how they did it and when they did it, they'll be much more receptive to having... You, you'll get more nuggets out of them instead of like just asking them, "Hey, so I'd like a raise. Uh, h- can you give me a raise?"

    10. EMErin McGoff34:12

        Gimme, gimme.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher34:12

        Like when-

    12. EMErin McGoff34:13

        Mm-hmm

13. 34:13 – 38:40

    Negotiation mechanics: give your manager a case, avoid ultimatums, use softer language

    1. JFJefferson Fisher34:13

       ... yeah, "When, when am I gonna give a raise?" 'Cause all they're hearing is, "Oh, you just, you just want stuff. You just want stuff." Oh, you're just... Oh, you're threatening me in a sense of, "Oh, if you don't get a raise, you're gone." So I, I can see... Talk about the downside real quick of when somebody comes out of the gate almost too strong, and they're saying... If they just come right in and say, "Aaron, I, I want a raise."

    2. EMErin McGoff34:39

       [laughs]

    3. JFJefferson Fisher34:39

       Like, what does, what does it go through the employer's mind?

    4. EMErin McGoff34:42

       Yeah. So you know, what you're doing when you come out of the gate strong, like you said, is you're putting a lot of work and like load on them. Because your manager, if you work in a corporate structure, is pr- probably not the one that actually has to green light that raise. Uh, they have to go to their boss, who has to go to finance, who has to go to HR, and it's like a lot of people who have to say yes.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher35:03

       That's a great point.

    6. EMErin McGoff35:03

       So that's why it's important. Yeah, that's why it's important to not... And it's always, you know, I always talk about how there's a difference when you're negotiating with the person who has the power to say yes and the person you're talking to, and they're oftentimes two different people. So if you're talking to your manager, like you said, enroll them in the conversation and say, "Hey, look, I did my market research, and you know, other social media coordinators out there are getting paid $10,000 more than me to do like less than me. Um, so I'm just, you know, being frank with you here. Um, I really like working here, but we need to do something to adjust my compensation, um, 'cause I, I'd really like to stay here, but this is not sustainable for me." And so you enroll them, because now they're thinking, their manager brain clicks on, and they're like, "Must retain good employee." And so they can take that to their boss, and they can say, "Look, Erin's thinking about quitting if we don't give her a 10, a 10K bump. And so I wanna retain her because she's really productive, and she's a great value add to the company." And then they can go to finance and advocate for you. So you have to give them a case to advocate f- on your behalf to somebody else, and you can't just say, "Hey, give me a raise." Because they're thinking, "I can't control that. I gotta go talk to Dave, and he's gotta talk to Karen-"

    7. JFJefferson Fisher36:07

       [laughs]

    8. EMErin McGoff36:07

       "... and they gotta talk to all these people," you know? So just working with them and making it a collaboration.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher36:12

       Yeah, I think that's spot on. Um, so often they're not the one that can do it, but you want them on your side. You want to turn them into an advocate for you. Um, one little tweak that I, because I'm weird, you know I'm weird about communication, Erin. She knows this.

    10. EMErin McGoff36:27

        Yeah. [laughs]

    11. JFJefferson Fisher36:28

        So when you say something like, you know, "I love working here, but I'm not gonna be able to continue on at the salary that I'm at," what, uh, my brain automatically does is, so how I would tweak that is instead of the but, would change it to, "And I also."

    12. EMErin McGoff36:46

        And, yeah, I-

    13. JFJefferson Fisher36:46

        Because-

    14. EMErin McGoff36:47

        Yeah

    15. JFJefferson Fisher36:48

        ... yeah. Which, which, um, anybody can use for any of these conversations, and I, I think, and Erin already, um, knows this 'cause you're, you're brilliant with these tips. So if it's, "I love working here, and I, and I also know that the rate I'm at is not sustainable."

    16. EMErin McGoff37:04

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JFJefferson Fisher37:05

        Like that right there is-

    18. EMErin McGoff37:06

        It's softer

    19. JFJefferson Fisher37:06

        ... sounds super confident. It's softer, but it's also, um, super confident, I feel like, when you, when you're able to say, "And I, and I also know-"

    20. EMErin McGoff37:15

        Yeah

    21. JFJefferson Fisher37:16

        Just I have that knowledge within myself of knowing, ah, this ain't gonna-

    22. EMErin McGoff37:20

        Yeah

    23. JFJefferson Fisher37:20

        ... be it. And I've, I can also know as, as someone who is an employer and has been on every side of it, whenever you feel like somebody's giving you an ultimatum of like you give a raise or they're leaving, nobody likes that decision. Like, it's, it, um-

    24. EMErin McGoff37:35

        Yeah, leaves a bad taste in your mouth, for sure.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher37:37

        Yeah. Have you, have you seen that backfire with anybody?

    26. EMErin McGoff37:40

        Um, yeah. So I'm like you, where I have just played both sides of the coin so much, being a business owner. Um, you know, I worked as a director, so I had to hire people all the time, um, let go of people, and then as a freelancer I've had to get hired. I've been hired by over 25 companies. And so I've truly just been on both sides of this equation so many times. Um, and yeah, ultimatums just typically don't work in general. I think anybody listening to this might say, "Oh, well, there's an exception for my cousin who works in tech." It's like, yeah, there's exceptions for everything, me and Jefferson say. Everything that comes out of our mouth, there's an exception for it.

    27. JFJefferson Fisher38:14

        Everything. Always.

    28. EMErin McGoff38:14

        [laughs] Um, you gotta give disclaimers for every little thing. Um, but yeah, I think just typically like strong-arming people, uh, is like a last resort, and it should not be. You should always go into things more softly because you, you want to help people bring down their defenses whenever you're having a communication. That's like literally what Jefferson's entire book is about, is how to get people-

    29. JFJefferson Fisher38:36

        [laughs]

    30. EMErin McGoff38:36

        ... to deescalate and to get softer, and then you can have a real conversation.

14. 38:40 – 42:22

    Closing reflections: empathy across the table + encouraging self-advocacy

    1. JFJefferson Fisher38:40

       The way when people try and push, which I, I support, and you do too, of stating your needs of what you want. I, I want a raise. That's wonderful. I love that you're able to voice that. When you push it on somebody of, "I need a raise or I'm gone," they will do it... They'll do either one of two things. They're gonna refuse it because of the way you asked right there, because then they're gonna start to automatically, they're gonna put you as a, we're us, and you're now over there. You're not part of us anymore. You don't wanna be part of the team. Uh, or two, they're gonna do it and agree to it and acquiesce 'cause you put them in a position that's very difficult, and they're gonna resent that they said yes because it's funny how, and I know you and I have spoken about this, how when you're the employee, the employer never pays enough money. You can, you know, never get enough. Which is not necessarily true, but you get the sentiment.

    2. EMErin McGoff39:44

       Yeah, yeah.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher39:44

       Versus on the other side, when they're, you're the employer, you feel like you're already paying too much.

    4. EMErin McGoff39:50

       Yeah.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher39:50

       'Cause now you're thinking of I have, I have to afford the business. It's not just the employee.

    6. EMErin McGoff39:54

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher39:54

       I have all the taxes I have to pay for all of the-

    8. EMErin McGoff39:56

       Healthcare, 401k

    9. JFJefferson Fisher39:57

       ... costs of goods sold. I have to pay-

    10. EMErin McGoff39:58

        Expenses

    11. JFJefferson Fisher39:58

        ... Yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness, yeah. If you offer benefits, if you... I mean, if... Not to mention, you're gonna have all the different sales tax, you have your employer ta- Like, everything that goes into it, and you're thinking, "I have to think of this whole entire world, and this person only is just wanting an, uh-"

    12. EMErin McGoff40:14

        Mm-hmm. Yeah

    13. JFJefferson Fisher40:14

        ... "another dollar, but they don't understand. They think that they're only asking for a dollar raise. They don't understand the implications on blah, blah, blah, blah."

    14. EMErin McGoff40:20

        Yeah, they're thinking about a million things.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher40:23

        And so it's j- Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with either side. N- nothing at all. I, I absolutely, and I know you believe the same, s- they, everybody should be paid, uh, a, a wage that is reasonable to them and, and an honest wage that reflects the work that they do and the value they bring. That's what good businesses do, and that's what good leaders do. Uh, but it's funny how we have such a way of flip-flopping depending on what side of the, the table we're sitting on, especially communicating that.

    16. EMErin McGoff40:53

        Yeah. Yeah, and it's funny because I tell people, like, the second you become a manager or the second you own your own business, it will click. You will understand why you asking for your raise that way didn't work, because now you're on the other side of the table, and you've got a million things going on. And you understand it's not just that easy for you to, "Okay, I'll go in," you know, and change your salary right now. [laughs] It's, it's a whole, sometimes it's a whole operation, and sometimes it's not. You know, sometimes I see a lot of companies giving people a really hard time who are very much being underpaid. So I really-

    17. JFJefferson Fisher41:22

        Hmm. Yeah

    18. EMErin McGoff41:22

        ... really advocate for people to advocate for themselves.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher41:25

        I think that's wonderful, and that's what you do. I mean, that's, that's why you have the following that you have, and, uh, that's why we're friends.

    20. EMErin McGoff41:32

        [laughs]

    21. JFJefferson Fisher41:32

        For anybody listening, they, she and I, um, kind of came up together at the same time.

    22. EMErin McGoff41:38

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher41:38

        You in your workplace world, my, m- me in my communication world, and, uh, it's just been awesome, Erin, to s- to see what you do and the people that you help. So if you haven't, I want you to go follow Erin McGoff. She's, has incredible content for workplace and career advice, and, uh, it's just a pleasure to have you on, Erin. Thank you so much for, uh, spending some time with me.

    24. EMErin McGoff41:59

        It has been amazing to see your growth, and it's so well-deserved. Uh, you deserve everything that you're getting, the, the book deal, the TV, the podcast. I'm just so happy for you because your advice is so amazing, and I see it impact people who, who I know. So, um, you're doing great, and I'm so glad that you, you picked up your phone in your car and made that first video.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher42:18

        [laughs] Thanks, Erin. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming.

    26. EMErin McGoff42:21

        Thank you so much for having me

Episode duration: 42:23