The Wrong (and Right) Way to Apologize ft. Cory Asbury

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   Free live class announcement + setting up a conversation about public conflict and communication

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      Hey, everybody. On October 10th, this Saturday at noon, I'm gonna be teaching a free live class where I'm announcing my first ever communication course, and I'm gonna teach my first free class right then and there. I hope to see you there. You can go to start.saidwell, that's the word said and the word well together, dot com. I'm gonna put the link down below. Hope to see you there. Enjoy the episode. You had a very public conflict between you and another Christian artist, Forrest Frank, that affected a lot of people. Can you tell me what really happened between you and Forrest? What have you had to unlearn-

   2. CACory Asbury0:39

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:39

      ... about how you and your wife communicate?

2. 0:42 – 2:37

   Early marriage reality check: selfishness, ego, and the urge to ‘win’ arguments

   1. CACory Asbury0:42

      Yeah. Bro, our first year of marriage was tough. [laughs]

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:48

      [laughs]

   3. CACory Asbury0:48

      We, we weren't sure we were gonna make it kind of thing, man.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:50

      Yeah.

   5. CACory Asbury0:50

      It was crazy. Um, and I think I came in... Y- we're so selfish.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:55

      Yeah.

   7. CACory Asbury0:55

      And I think we don't realize that until we get married. We think, "Oh, I'm humble, I'm, I'm so selfless," and then you get married and you're like, "Wait a sec, I have so much to learn."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher1:06

      Yeah.

   9. CACory Asbury1:07

      Uh, so immediately it was a death to self in the most beautiful way. You know, you have to kind of lose your ego and your self-preservation, almost your self-preference, and go, "I need to prefer this person now."

   10. JFJefferson Fisher1:21

       Mm.

   11. CACory Asbury1:21

       "I have to put them first every single time." And you know, when I, when we would get into an argument, which we got into many arguments that first year, I mean, it was pretty much all arguments, again, because mostly me. I was such a selfish piece of garbage. [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher1:37

       [laughs]

   13. CACory Asbury1:37

       You know, just so self-centered-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher1:39

       Yeah

   15. CACory Asbury1:39

       ... and self-focused.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher1:40

       Yeah.

   17. CACory Asbury1:41

       But, but when we would get into an arguments, I was bent on winning.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher1:44

       Mm.

   19. CACory Asbury1:44

       I wanted to win the argument because that's what you do, right?

   20. JFJefferson Fisher1:47

       Right.

   21. CACory Asbury1:48

       You, you're mad and, you know.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher1:49

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we do.

   23. CACory Asbury1:50

       That's what we do. [laughs]

   24. JFJefferson Fisher1:51

       Yeah.

   25. CACory Asbury1:52

       And I realized-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher1:53

       [laughs]

   27. CACory Asbury1:53

       ... you know, through the, through the, uh, tutelage of a, of a wise leader at that point, it's not about winning an argument.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher2:00

       Mm.

   29. CACory Asbury2:01

       It's about winning their heart every time. And so-

   30. JFJefferson Fisher2:03

       Mm
3. 2:37 – 4:31

   Relearning communication styles: from yelling culture to gentleness and humility

   1. CACory Asbury2:37

      So much more gently. I, I grew up with a dad who was a screamer and a yeller and a cusser-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:42

      Oh

   3. CACory Asbury2:42

      ... and our family was intense. We would just hash it out, we'd go after it. Like, that was normal in our family.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:49

      Every day battle.

   5. CACory Asbury2:49

      Oh, every day.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:50

      Just, yeah.

   7. CACory Asbury2:50

      That was so normal and, and unhealthy. Don't get me wrong.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:53

      Right. Of course. Yeah, yeah.

   9. CACory Asbury2:54

      Unhealthy in a lot of ways. But my wife came from the exact opposite. Her parents never fought. Were they unhealthy and toxic? Absolutely, 100%.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:03

       Yeah.

   11. CACory Asbury3:03

       But they didn't show it to the family.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher3:05

       Right.

   13. CACory Asbury3:06

       So she never saw that, so she just thought, "Oh, my parents are perfect. They never fight," because they were hiding everything.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher3:13

       Yeah.

   15. CACory Asbury3:13

       So then all of a sudden we're getting into verbal ar- altercations-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher3:17

       Right

   17. CACory Asbury3:17

       ... and it's like she's freaking out going, "Something's so wrong," and I'm sitting there going, "No, this is, this is normal."

   18. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

       Yeah.

   19. CACory Asbury3:24

       You know? Like, this is-

   20. JFJefferson Fisher3:25

       You think this is an argument?

   21. CACory Asbury3:26

       Yeah.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher3:26

       This isn't an argument.

   23. CACory Asbury3:27

       No, this is, we're chilling right now.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher3:28

       You think I'm yelling? This isn't yelling.

   25. CACory Asbury3:29

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   26. JFJefferson Fisher3:30

       Yeah.

   27. CACory Asbury3:31

       So I've had to learn gentleness, tenderness, because it's, because it's not my nature. That's not normal for me. I'm like, "Let's, let's fight." Like-

   28. JFJefferson Fisher3:41

       How did you get to that mindset of... See, I hear you going, "I had to come to her"-

   29. CACory Asbury3:45

       Mm-hmm

   30. JFJefferson Fisher3:45

       ... rather than demanding-
4. 4:31 – 5:24

   Marriage principle: prioritize your partner’s comfort over your convenience

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:31

      Yes. There is a, a line that I've, I'll never fail to repeat on any podcast 'cause it's something I try to live by every day, and that is the, one of the best pieces of advice I got on marriage is when you prioritize the other person's comfort-

   2. CACory Asbury4:48

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:48

      ... over your convenience.

   4. CACory Asbury4:49

      Mm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:50

      And man-

   6. CACory Asbury4:50

      That's facts

   7. JFJefferson Fisher4:51

      ... let me tell you what, that has been, every time where I have that impulse to be selfish-

   8. CACory Asbury4:58

      Yeah

   9. JFJefferson Fisher4:58

      ... because that's, that's human.

   10. CACory Asbury5:00

       Mm.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:00

       That's sinful nature.

   12. CACory Asbury5:01

       Very.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:01

       That is instinct-

   14. CACory Asbury5:02

       Mm-hmm

   15. JFJefferson Fisher5:02

       ... right? The, to let me do what... This is about me.

   16. CACory Asbury5:05

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher5:05

       Um, to where you kind of have to let your, your grip-

   18. CACory Asbury5:09

       Yeah

   19. JFJefferson Fisher5:09

       ... off of that-

   20. CACory Asbury5:10

       Mm-hmm

   21. JFJefferson Fisher5:10

       ... and go, "No. How can I find ways to..."

   22. CACory Asbury5:13

       Yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher5:14

       I'm, I'm gonna put myself, I'm gonna inconvenience myself-

   24. CACory Asbury5:17

       Mm-hmm

   25. JFJefferson Fisher5:17

       ... um, for her, for her comfort.

   26. CACory Asbury5:20

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher5:20

       And I think that's been something that has certainly been helpful in-

   28. CACory Asbury5:24

       Yeah

5. 5:24 – 7:25

   Five kids and thinner margins: scheduling practical talks and ‘heart checks’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:24

      ... in, uh, my life. And also, kids don't make things easier.

   2. CACory Asbury5:27

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:27

      You got five of them.

   4. CACory Asbury5:28

      Five of them, bro. Yeah, I mean, it, it definitely becomes more complex, right?

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:34

      I'm gonna ask y- you in a question. How does, how has kids, how does five, how has five kids-

   6. CACory Asbury5:39

      Mm-hmm. Mm

   7. JFJefferson Fisher5:40

      ... or just how has kids affected how you and your wife communicate?

   8. CACory Asbury5:45

      Man.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:45

      [laughs]

   10. CACory Asbury5:46

       God.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:46

       That's the answer right there.

   12. CACory Asbury5:48

       Dude. I mean, it has to be so much more intentional, right?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:51

       Yeah.

   14. CACory Asbury5:51

       Because your time and your margins get thinner. You know, we've got five kids. I got one who's 16 years old, so he's already got practice, games, all these-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher6:01

       That sounds terrifying

   16. CACory Asbury6:02

       ... school sche- Oh, bro, the school schedule's wild just in and of itself.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher6:05

       Yeah.

   18. CACory Asbury6:06

       So finding a- And, and, and then we've all, we've gone all the way down to 18 months, which is a constant, um, you know, she's constantly needing mostly my wife, honestly.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher6:16

       Yeah. [laughs]

   20. CACory Asbury6:18

       Um, but-

   21. JFJefferson Fisher6:18

       Right

   22. CACory Asbury6:18

       ... intentionality and, you know, it sounds really cheesy, but like carving out time even on like a calendar.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher6:26

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CACory Asbury6:26

       Like where we know, hey, we're having an intentional conversation about everything. This might be, hey, we're sitting down to talk about all things practical, school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh, you know, all the kids' stuff that's going on.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher6:37

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CACory Asbury6:37

       But then we're also sitting down, you know, for a date night or for a post kids' bedtime to go-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher6:44

       Yeah

   28. CACory Asbury6:44

       ... "Hey, how's, how are our hearts? How are we-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher6:47

       Yeah

   30. CACory Asbury6:47

       ... feeling? How are we doing?" It sounds cheesy that you would have to do that, but if you don't, it just falls through the cracks. And I think you-
6. 7:25 – 12:07

   Creative work vs. family presence: ‘home but not present’ and naming expectations

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:25

      Yeah. Does... And that's so good. How do you, this is a, a personal question for me, is h- how do you maintain with the level of creative space-

   2. CACory Asbury7:38

      [laughs]

   3. JFJefferson Fisher7:38

      ... that you have to have for songwriting, for maybe it's touring or whatever.

   4. CACory Asbury7:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:44

      There has to be some amount of space, you go, "I, I need to be able to have a creative outlet-

   6. CACory Asbury7:51

      Yeah

   7. JFJefferson Fisher7:51

      ... of what you do," especially with music.

   8. CACory Asbury7:53

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher7:53

      How do you balance the, what you need professionally with how you live personally?

   10. CACory Asbury8:01

       Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher8:01

       Because kids, faith, spouse, they all take priority.

   12. CACory Asbury8:07

       Yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

       H- How, how have you managed [laughs] what's been your secret?

   14. CACory Asbury8:11

       Dude, that has been an ongoing I won't say struggle or even battle. That's been an ongoing thing in our lives where-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher8:20

       It can be a struggle and be a good one.

   16. CACory Asbury8:22

       Yeah, that's-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher8:22

       Yeah

   18. CACory Asbury8:22

       ... that's true. I'm fine with that. I like that. It's, it's been an ongoing struggle and a good one-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher8:27

       Yeah

   20. CACory Asbury8:27

       ... to figure out. You know, she's been a quote unquote stay-at-home mom for so many years, right?

   21. JFJefferson Fisher8:32

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CACory Asbury8:33

       And so the, the power struggle between is what you do more important or is what I do more important, and there's always this like, "Well, you get to go out" type of language from her. And I'm kinda going, "I wish that I didn't have to go out sometimes. I wish I could just be home with the kids, and I'd da- I'd gladly, you know, daddy daycare thing-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       Mm-hmm

   24. CACory Asbury8:53

       ... this. Like I would gladly do that-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher8:55

       Mm-hmm

   26. CACory Asbury8:55

       ... and switch and let you go do art or music or whatever.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CACory Asbury8:59

       Um, but we've kind of constantly wrestled and f- found the tension between, okay, you know, I'm home a lot because I'm, I'm writing or-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher9:12

       Yeah

   30. CACory Asbury9:12

       ... I'm, um, in a creative space, and I do that a lot from home. So when I co-write with people, a lot of times they come to the house.
7. 12:07 – 16:12

   Modeling repair for kids: apologizing, repentance, and breaking generational patterns

   1. JFJefferson Fisher12:07

      How have you as a, as a dad- You have five kids. You now have a 16-year-old boy.

   2. CACory Asbury12:12

      Mm-hmm, yeah. My only boy.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher12:14

      Terr- only boy?

   4. CACory Asbury12:15

      Only boy.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher12:15

      Oh, gosh, man.

   6. CACory Asbury12:16

      [laughs] I know. It's crazy, bro.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher12:17

      That is wild.

   8. CACory Asbury12:18

      It's crazy.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher12:18

      Uh, yeah, I'm ... mine is ... mine are eight and six.

   10. CACory Asbury12:21

       Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher12:22

       And, uh, I'm in no rush for him to be, uh, 16 though.

   12. CACory Asbury12:25

       [laughs]

   13. JFJefferson Fisher12:25

       That terrifies me. Um, how have you learned to not just communicate with your kids ... I wanna, I wanna specifically hone in on something, and that is, how important is it for your kids to see you model repair-

   14. CACory Asbury12:43

       Hmm

   15. JFJefferson Fisher12:43

       ... with both your, your spouse and for-

   16. CACory Asbury12:45

       Yeah

   17. JFJefferson Fisher12:45

       ... them?

   18. CACory Asbury12:46

       Incredibly important. Something I never saw in my home growing up. [clears throat] And, and that was really difficult for me. What I've seen bear the most fruit, and I, I really do think I believe that, the most fruit in our family is my kids seeing me repent to either my wife-

   19. JFJefferson Fisher13:05

       Mm-hmm

   20. CACory Asbury13:06

       ... or to them-

   21. JFJefferson Fisher13:07

       Hmm

   22. CACory Asbury13:07

       ... for ways that I've missed it. Um, I never saw that modeled. It wa- you know, with, with my dad there was a real air of arrogance. "I'm never wrong. I got it right. I may have just screamed and yelled and cussed you-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher13:22

       Mm-hmm

   24. CACory Asbury13:22

       ... into the ground, but you deserved that."

   25. JFJefferson Fisher13:24

       Did he apologize?

   26. CACory Asbury13:25

       No.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher13:26

       Yeah.

   28. CACory Asbury13:26

       Not until much later in my life, probably, you know, I'm, I'm 40 years old now-

   29. JFJefferson Fisher13:30

       Mm-hmm

   30. CACory Asbury13:31

       ... probably early 30s-
8. 16:12 – 19:07

   What ‘repent’ means and why it’s the foundation of a real apology

   1. JFJefferson Fisher16:12

      ... by choosing to, to ... And I like that you even used the word repent, because in many ways that's, that, that is what the word means is to ... Yeah. Or, and I'll even ask, what, what does that word repent mean to you?

   2. CACory Asbury16:27

      Yeah. To, to turn around, to 180 that sucker.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher16:31

      [laughs]

   4. CACory Asbury16:31

      You know? To go, "I n- I see that this is wrong, and I'm turning from that, and I don't wanna walk like that." Um, you know, for me, obviously, the, the blood of Jesus, all those-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher16:44

      Hmm

   6. CACory Asbury16:44

      ... things, right? Like, that's, that's the, the tradition of faith that I come from, and, and he models that, um, you know, for us. And so for me, it's just like completely turn from that thing. And am, am I probably gonna do it again?

   7. JFJefferson Fisher16:59

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CACory Asbury17:00

      Yeah, I probably am because I'm, I'm human, I'm weak, I'm frail. Um, but it's the-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher17:06

      Yeah

   10. CACory Asbury17:06

       ... the intention of the heart to turn and go, "No, no, no, I don't, I don't wanna do that thing again."

   11. JFJefferson Fisher17:14

       What I, what I'm hearing from you is if I could boil that down is, first, there's an awareness of I see where ... I first see the path I'm on right now. I see my heading.

   12. CACory Asbury17:25

       Yeah.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher17:25

       Second is a inner desire to say, "That's not the goal that I want," that there has to be some type of, of choice to say, "This is no longer the destination where I wanna be."

   14. CACory Asbury17:37

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher17:37

       And three, the action words to be able to turn, go the other way, or turn and go to a different-

   16. CACory Asbury17:45

       Mm-hmm

   17. JFJefferson Fisher17:45

       ... po- position.

   18. CACory Asbury17:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher17:47

       And that to me is also just the foundation of apology.

   20. CACory Asbury17:50

       Hmm.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher17:50

       Uh, when we come to not only apologizing to your kids, but also-

   22. CACory Asbury17:53

       Mm-hmm

   23. JFJefferson Fisher17:53

       ... apologizing to friends, um, apologizing to your spouse. Um-

   24. CACory Asbury18:00

       Yeah

   25. JFJefferson Fisher18:00

       ... it's not just the, "Hey, sorry I did that."

   26. CACory Asbury18:03

       Yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher18:04

       It's also the, "Next time I'm gonna do-

   28. CACory Asbury18:07

       Yeah

   29. JFJefferson Fisher18:07

       ... X, Y, and Z."

   30. CACory Asbury18:08

       Mm-hmm.
9. 19:07 – 26:18

   Public controversy ‘Reckless Love’: defending conviction without becoming defensive

   1. JFJefferson Fisher19:07

      You have a lot. You have a lot of... on you at home. You have a lot on you publicly, professionally. When you wrote in the, the, the song Reckless Love came out-

   2. CACory Asbury19:18

      Mm-hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher19:18

      ... and you had so much controversy-

   4. CACory Asbury19:21

      Mm-hmm

   5. JFJefferson Fisher19:21

      ... I would say is-

   6. CACory Asbury19:22

      Mm-hmm

   7. JFJefferson Fisher19:22

      ... and you can tell me-

   8. CACory Asbury19:22

      Yeah

   9. JFJefferson Fisher19:23

      ... if that's not the right word, of just the word reckless.

   10. CACory Asbury19:26

       Yeah.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher19:27

       Yeah. How do you defend your position-

   12. CACory Asbury19:31

       Mm-hmm

   13. JFJefferson Fisher19:33

       ... without getting defensive?

   14. CACory Asbury19:35

       Yeah.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher19:35

       Or let me ask it differently. How, how do you... How, how can you defend your position with also, without compromising?

   16. CACory Asbury19:43

       Sure, sure. [sighs] I think conviction and identity are everything. Conviction is knowing what you believe-

   17. JFJefferson Fisher19:54

       Mm

   18. CACory Asbury19:54

       ... fully. And, and for me, specifically with that song, I, I live that song. You know, I was the piece of garbage that deserved nothing, that was out doing A, B, and C since I was a kid, saying I was following God.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher20:09

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CACory Asbury20:10

       And he found me in that place.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher20:11

       Mm.

   22. CACory Asbury20:11

       While I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher20:13

       Amen.

   24. CACory Asbury20:14

       Like, that was, that was my position. And so I knew, and I had lived the reality of that song, therefore the conviction of it was inside of me. It was birthed from that place. And then identity, knowing who I am in God, you're unoffendable at that point.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher20:32

       Hmm.

   26. CACory Asbury20:32

       And I think maintaining that position in your heart and y- and your mind, making those two align is the difficult part sometimes. I know in my heart, in my spirit who I am. I'm a child of God.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher20:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CACory Asbury20:44

       I'm a son of God.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher20:45

       Mm.

   30. CACory Asbury20:45

       You can't touch me.
10. 26:18 – 34:30

    Becoming ‘unoffendable’: whose opinion counts, boundaries, and personality wiring

    1. JFJefferson Fisher26:18

       How, how do you become unoffendable?

    2. CACory Asbury26:22

       I mean, I still get offended. Uh, the goal is undefend- unoffendable, right?

    3. JFJefferson Fisher26:26

       Yeah.

    4. CACory Asbury26:26

       And, and I've been walking with God for a lot of years. What am I? I'm o- I'm 40, and I was 19 really when I got saved.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher26:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CACory Asbury26:35

       So a little over 20 years. Um, part of it for me truly is my personality. I just don't, I don't have a high regard for what most people think, and I think that's a gift. Um, you know, I don't know if you do, like, the whole Enneagram thing, but, like, eight on the Enneagram just wanna rip things apart.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher26:54

       You're an eight?

    8. CACory Asbury26:54

       Just wanna just-

    9. JFJefferson Fisher26:55

       That's awesome

    10. CACory Asbury26:55

        ... crush every-

    11. JFJefferson Fisher26:57

        I'm a three. I'm a three.

    12. CACory Asbury26:58

        Three is achiever?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher26:59

        Something like that.

    14. CACory Asbury26:59

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher27:00

        Probably.

    16. CACory Asbury27:01

        Probably. [laughs]

    17. JFJefferson Fisher27:02

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    18. CACory Asbury27:05

        Um, so I think part of it is a, is a superpower that, that God created me with ever since I was a kid. Like, I just wanted to break the molds. I don't care what people say. I don't care what people think. And, uh, I care what people I love think.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher27:21

        Yeah.

    20. CACory Asbury27:21

        If my wife came to me and I, and said, "I think you're an idiot," I'd be like, "What?"

    21. JFJefferson Fisher27:25

        Yeah.

    22. CACory Asbury27:25

        "Who you... What?"

    23. JFJefferson Fisher27:26

        That hurts.

    24. CACory Asbury27:26

        That hurts. When some random guy on the internet's saying, "I think you're dumb," or, "You look stupid," or, "I don't like your haircut," I'm like, eh, I just could care less. But again, the unoffendable thing is, is always rooted in identity. I think of Jesus when He's, uh, coming off this 40-day fast, right? And He's in the wilderness, and all of a sudden, the dev- devil comes to tempt Him-

    25. JFJefferson Fisher27:50

        Mm

    26. CACory Asbury27:50

        ... and is like, "Yo, come up here. I'll show you all these kingdoms. Just, like, jump off and let God take care of you and all this is yours."

    27. JFJefferson Fisher27:57

        Yeah.

    28. CACory Asbury27:58

        And He goes, "No, no, no. I know who I am. This is already mine."

    29. JFJefferson Fisher28:03

        Mm-hmm.

    30. CACory Asbury28:03

        "I don't need to listen to the voice of the accuser," and that's what it is often. It's the voice of the accuser through people.
11. 34:30 – 36:57

    Sponsor break + pivot to a public disagreement with Forrest Frank and lessons in repair

    1. JFJefferson Fisher34:30

       Before we keep going, I wanna take a moment to tell you about Tiny Health. You know that for you and your family it's important of what you eat. But did you know that it's not just what you eat, it's also how those foods interact with your body? Um, how, how are they happening and dealing within your gut? Well, Tiny Health is a at home gut health test. And so we've done it with our own children. That was incredible. So we were able to take this test, send off the results, and you get back a very custom, um, analysis really of what the gut shows, what things were, um, aggravating or things were, uh, infla- inflaming things, what, what was good for the gut, what, what happened with our kids of what are they eating, not just at the nutritional level, but also in the, in the micro level of what's happening. And so it was very informative, very helpful. If you know, not only for yourself but for your other, your kids or people in your world, that this is something they need to look at and they're having gut health problems, look no further than Tiny Health. Right now they're offering their most aggressive offer of $50 off your first at home kit. If you go to tinyhealth.com/jefferson, you'll get up to $50 off your first at home gut health kit. It was helpful for us. I know it'll be helpful for you. And now let's keep going. I wanna switch for a, a little bit, too, of public... Eh, not even public. But the aspect of thinking one thing and needing to turn, and how conversations can create a shift in, a total different shift in your life.

    2. CACory Asbury36:09

       Mm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher36:09

       And specifically the, what I understand to be a very kind of public disagreement that happened-

    4. CACory Asbury36:17

       Yeah

    5. JFJefferson Fisher36:17

       ... between you and another artist.

    6. CACory Asbury36:20

       Mm-hmm.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher36:20

       His name's Forest Frank.

    8. CACory Asbury36:22

       Forest Frank.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher36:22

       Um, now I don't know Forest personally.

    10. CACory Asbury36:24

        Mm-hmm.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher36:27

        And I'm, I am... I would love for my listeners to hear [clears throat] kind of this story.

    12. CACory Asbury36:34

        Yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher36:35

        Because it's, it would be a disservice for me to tell it. And then I wanna piece apart-

    14. CACory Asbury36:38

        [laughs]

    15. JFJefferson Fisher36:38

        ... you know, a, a little bit of the, I think are some really deep, meaningful lessons-

    16. CACory Asbury36:44

        Yeah

    17. JFJefferson Fisher36:44

        ... to be said in, uh, ownership and, uh, apology and new direction and allowing hard conversations to turn into something really beautiful.

12. 36:57 – 44:22

    Cynicism, satire, and the viral ‘vasectomy rap’: how a joke became a dogpile

    1. CACory Asbury36:57

       Yeah. Yeah. Man, so I found myself rather jaded, cynical, a bit disenfranchised from the church.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher37:09

       What year is this?

    3. CACory Asbury37:12

       A year and a half ago.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher37:13

       Yeah.

    5. CACory Asbury37:13

       [Clears throat] Um, so whatever year that is. I'm bad at math.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher37:16

       No one knows. Yeah.

    7. CACory Asbury37:17

       Yeah, [laughs] who, who really knows? Somewhere in the 20th century, I think.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher37:19

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't we just get out of COVID?

    9. CACory Asbury37:20

       [laughs]

    10. JFJefferson Fisher37:20

        Yeah, something like that.

    11. CACory Asbury37:22

        Somewhere around there.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher37:22

        '20, '21.

    13. CACory Asbury37:24

        Um, yeah, it, just seeing everything I saw, um... Yeah, I just, I just found myself frustrated, I think. And, and my answer to frustration of that sort is to be very public and very vocal about it. I'm not the guy who's gonna like, you know, sit with it quietly.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher37:48

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CACory Asbury37:48

        Because I wanna fix everything.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher37:50

        Mm.

    17. CACory Asbury37:50

        Like, that's my personality. I wanna, I wanna rend everything to the ground, and then try to build it back up properly.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher37:57

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CACory Asbury37:57

        And so I found myself, uh, I, I'm a very like sarcastic, biting type of personality naturally, and I'm learning to be more gentle, like we talked about earlier.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher38:07

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CACory Asbury38:07

        But a lot of, like, satire, because I find the quickest way to make your point is not often to have a two-hour podcast, but if you can do... [laughs]

    22. JFJefferson Fisher38:17

        Agreed.

    23. CACory Asbury38:18

        You, you get what I'm saying? Like-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher38:19

        We'll make this podcast wish we're together.

    25. CACory Asbury38:21

        [laughs] Yeah.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher38:21

        Okay.

    27. CACory Asbury38:22

        Clip it up.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher38:22

        Clip it up.

    29. CACory Asbury38:22

        Yeah. [laughs]

    30. JFJefferson Fisher38:23

        Clip, clip for him this sucker.
13. 44:22 – 52:11

    Forrest’s vulnerable feedback (‘That hurt’) and Cory’s choice to own it publicly

    1. CACory Asbury44:22

       And they were going off in the comments, and I was like, "Oh, geez." So I text Forrest on the way home, and I was like, "Bro, I didn't mean for it to do this. Like, truly I was poking fun at you, obviously."

    2. JFJefferson Fisher44:39

       Yeah.

    3. CACory Asbury44:39

       "But I did not mean for this to be, like, a, a whack Forrest kind of vibe."

    4. JFJefferson Fisher44:43

       Yeah.

    5. CACory Asbury44:43

       "Like, that's not what I was getting at. I'm really sorry for that. Like, say the word and I'm taking it down." And so I wake up the next morning, it's like 10:00 a.m. or something. I sleep in. Um, and I get a text from him, and it's a long text. And he's like, "Dude, actually, that really hurt my feelings."

    6. JFJefferson Fisher45:02

       Hmm.

    7. CACory Asbury45:02

       Like, "My family and I didn't know if I was ever gonna walk again. Like, my kids would cry thinking Daddy is, like, you know-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher45:11

       Like, tra-

    9. CACory Asbury45:11

       ... paralyzed."

    10. JFJefferson Fisher45:12

        Traumatic.

    11. CACory Asbury45:12

        And I'm like, yeah.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher45:13

        Yeah.

    13. CACory Asbury45:13

        Super traumatic, and my wife's crying every day going, "Am I gonna have to, like... m- you know, am I raising my kids with my husband in a wheelchair now?"

    14. JFJefferson Fisher45:21

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. CACory Asbury45:21

        "This is intense. I'm having to deal with that."

    16. JFJefferson Fisher45:23

        Hmm.

    17. CACory Asbury45:24

        So he's like, "It was not a light thing in our family. Like, you guys in the world might be taking it with a lot of levity, but it was n- there was none of that for us."

    18. JFJefferson Fisher45:31

        Yeah.

    19. CACory Asbury45:33

        And he's like, "That really hurt." And immediately I was like, man, I respect that. That-

    20. JFJefferson Fisher45:38

        What did you respect?

    21. CACory Asbury45:40

        The fact that he was honest.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher45:41

        Yeah.

    23. CACory Asbury45:41

        And said, "That hurt." 'Cause as a man-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher45:44

        Mm-hmm

    25. CACory Asbury45:44

        ... those aren't popular words, you know?

    26. JFJefferson Fisher45:48

        That hurt.

    27. CACory Asbury45:48

        That hurt.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher45:49

        Yeah.

    29. CACory Asbury45:50

        No one wants to say, "That hurt," because that's vulnerable.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher45:52

        Hmm.
14. 52:11 – 57:49

    Public reconciliation ripple effects: ‘Misunderstood,’ renewed calling, and returning to the table

    1. CACory Asbury52:11

       Ever. Like, that's fully his, his superpower. And the level of, um, healing and restoration that I saw through that whole exchange on the internet was wild. I had people coming up to me everywhere I went, "Dude, I saw what happened with you and Forrest. It so touched my heart, I called my pastor."

    2. JFJefferson Fisher52:35

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CACory Asbury52:36

       "I called my mom. I called my cousin who I was offended by. I called my old worship leader who, you know, fired me from the platform-"

    4. JFJefferson Fisher52:43

       Wow

    5. CACory Asbury52:43

       ... "and told them that it hurt and we worked through it."

    6. JFJefferson Fisher52:46

       How that got used-

    7. CACory Asbury52:47

       Yes

    8. JFJefferson Fisher52:47

       ... to, to bring healing-

    9. CACory Asbury52:49

       Yes

    10. JFJefferson Fisher52:49

        ... not just to you two-

    11. CACory Asbury52:51

        Yeah

    12. JFJefferson Fisher52:51

        ... but to thousands of people you had-

    13. CACory Asbury52:54

        Dude

    14. JFJefferson Fisher52:54

        ... y- you could never, ever meet.

    15. CACory Asbury52:56

        Can't quantify it.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher52:57

        Yeah.

    17. CACory Asbury52:57

        Like, it was, it was crazy. Everywhere I went, random people, "Bro, I saw that exchange, man. That meant so much to me. I decided to go and talk to blah, blah, blah, and we worked it out." I was just like, "What? That's crazy." It was, it was really wild. Um, yeah, so I, I don't know. Like, I don't know if there's more I need to-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher53:18

        Mm-mm

    19. CACory Asbury53:18

        ... to say on all that, but, like, that's the way it went down. It was very real how it happened. He was hurt. I was being a tool. [laughs] Like, you know, honestly, full transparency, I was being a jerk.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher53:29

        Well, and also [laughs] like, a t- a tool to get something, like-

    21. CACory Asbury53:33

        [laughs] Yeah, it worked

    22. JFJefferson Fisher53:34

        ... without you knowing it-

    23. CACory Asbury53:35

        Yeah

    24. JFJefferson Fisher53:35

        ... actually a tool for a lot of good.

    25. CACory Asbury53:36

        God uses-

    26. JFJefferson Fisher53:37

        Yeah

    27. CACory Asbury53:37

        ... God uses even the wildest of-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher53:39

        Yeah

    29. CACory Asbury53:39

        ... donkeys to-

    30. JFJefferson Fisher53:39

        And then y'all put a-
15. 57:49 – 1:05:36

    What to do when you’re wrong: humility, owning your part, and letting ego die

    1. CACory Asbury57:49

       Mm-hmm

    2. JFJefferson Fisher57:51

       ... what have you learned about how to respond when you're in the wrong?

    3. CACory Asbury57:56

       Mm. Humility is always the answer every time. Humility wins your brother or your sister every time. Arrogance puffs up in pride and, and God says, "I resist the proud."

    4. JFJefferson Fisher58:11

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CACory Asbury58:12

       "But I give grace to the humble." Willingness to admit you're wrong takes so much humility.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher58:18

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CACory Asbury58:19

       You know, especially for a guy like me, who... I just wanna win.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher58:22

       [laughs]

    9. CACory Asbury58:24

       That is so much of my-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher58:25

        Yeah

    11. CACory Asbury58:25

        ... my drive. Because of the way that I was brought up, I always felt like I was less than.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher58:30

        Yeah.

    13. CACory Asbury58:30

        My dad was, you know, "You're pathetic. You're this. You're that."

    14. JFJefferson Fisher58:33

        Uh-huh.

    15. CACory Asbury58:34

        A lot of, you know, that type of talk in the house, not a lot of, "I'm proud of you. I love you." [clears throat] So I've got this, this sort of fleshly, insatiable drive to win, to be able to say, "I dominated that." It flies in the face of our flesh to go, "Hey, man, that was really wrong of me to do."

    16. JFJefferson Fisher58:56

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CACory Asbury58:56

        To lower yourself, to come under and, and, uh, admit that you are wrong, it takes so much, um, humility. But it is the path forward. It's always the path forward. That's the way of Jesus. Winning is never the point.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher59:13

        Yeah.

    19. CACory Asbury59:13

        I mean, if he wanted to win, he'd have called down some angels, and he'd have flown off the cross and gave everyone the finger.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher59:18

        Yeah.

    21. CACory Asbury59:19

        You know [laughs] what I mean? Sorry, he'd-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher59:19

        Yeah, no, you

    23. CACory Asbury59:20

        ... he'd have flown off the cross and, you know-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher59:21

        Yeah, yeah

    25. CACory Asbury59:22

        ... told everyone to, "This is what's up."

    26. JFJefferson Fisher59:24

        Yeah.

    27. CACory Asbury59:25

        Um, but he didn't. His way of winning was death.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher59:29

        Yeah.

    29. CACory Asbury59:30

        Death on a cross. He conquered death, and that is always the answer, I think, i- in any, in any conflict. Own what you can own. Don't make crap up.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher59:42

        Yeah.
16. 1:05:36 – 1:09:27

    Accepting losses and practicing self-grace: dropping self-flogging for a healthier inner life

    1. CACory Asbury1:05:36

       Man, self-acceptance really. I think when, when your goal or when your wiring is only to win, obviously we don't win every battle, right?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:50

       Yeah. We don't want to.

    3. CACory Asbury1:05:51

       [laughs]

    4. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:51

       Yeah, yeah. Not all of them.

    5. CACory Asbury1:05:53

       Like, I, I used to think... I would get down on myself. I would beat myself up-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher1:05:57

       Mm

    7. CACory Asbury1:05:57

       ... if I got, like, a parking ticket. What an idiot. Like, I can't-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:01

       Yeah

    9. CACory Asbury1:06:01

       ... believe I parked there. What a s- I'm so stupid, man. I lost, you know?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:06

        I'm gonna fight this.

    11. CACory Asbury1:06:07

        I'm gonna, yeah-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:07

        Yeah [laughs]

    13. CACory Asbury1:06:07

        ... I'm gonna go fight this. Like, there's... I, I shouldn't have gotten this ticket. They should understand that I needed to be in and out, blah, blah, blah. You know?

    14. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:14

        Yeah.

    15. CACory Asbury1:06:14

        It's that type of thinking, but it's all internal for me.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:18

        Uh-huh.

    17. CACory Asbury1:06:18

        I- it's always, um, my own critic on the inside because I don't know about you, but I'm my own worst critic-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:28

        Yeah [laughs]

    19. CACory Asbury1:06:28

        ... for sure.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. CACory Asbury1:06:29

        I'm so much harder on myself than-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:31

        Yeah

    23. CACory Asbury1:06:31

        ... than anyone else, and obviously I'm so much more well acquainted with my own weakness-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:35

        Yeah

    25. CACory Asbury1:06:35

        ... and, and faults than anybody else.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:37

        And sensitivities, you know?

    27. CACory Asbury1:06:38

        Yeah, 100%.

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:38

        Where I'm, where I'm way more, uh, easy to, to bite the hand.

    29. CACory Asbury1:06:41

        Absolutely. So I don't know, man. It's like when, when I can come to grips and be okay with losing-

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:06:51

        Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 1:09:28