What Serving 7 Years in Prison Taught Damon West About Communication

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 On today's episode, I have one of the wildest comeback stories you'll probably ever hear, and me personally, one of the best examples of how the next conversation truly can change everything about your life. I want you to hear this story because it's just so cool, and he's also a Southeast Texas boy like me, is Damon West. Damon, how you doing, man?

Damon West 0:23 Jefferson, I'm good, man. It's good to finally meet you. It's weird that we're meeting like this. We- we're neighbors, but we've never met-

Jefferson Fisher 0:29 [laughs] I know

Damon West 0:29 ... each other physically in person, right?

Jefferson Fisher 0:31 I know. So Damon, Damon is, uh, from a town that's probably, what? 20 minutes away? It, at-

Damon West 0:37 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 0:37 ... roundabout. Oh-

Damon West 0:38 You know, I was-

Jefferson Fisher 0:39 Nederland, right?

Damon West 0:39 Yeah, I w- I'm in Nederland.

Jefferson Fisher 0:40 Port Arthur, which-

Damon West 0:40 Actually, I was in your part of the-

Jefferson Fisher 0:42 Okay, that's right

Damon West 0:42 ... the world this past weekend. My wife having a big lawn landscaping project in the biggest nursery in our area-

Jefferson Fisher 0:48 [laughs]

Damon West 0:48 ... in the town where you are, so.

Jefferson Fisher 0:50 Yeah, over in Silsbee. Yeah, man. You wanna be-

Damon West 0:52 I see your signs everywhere.

Jefferson Fisher 0:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, we're, we're, uh, we're trying to, trying to do it right. Everything's, everything is Southeast Texas. So if you hear my accent come out a little bit more, that's because I'm talking to Damon.

Damon West 1:04 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:04 And, uh, we're ... This is, this is how we communicate, so.

Damon West 1:08 This is gonna expose both of us, right? [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:09 Brother, it's good to hear from you, man. I know, I know.

Damon West 1:11 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:12 Everybody's gonna go, "Ah, that's what he really sounds like."

Damon West 1:14 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14 That's exactly right. Um, Damon, uh, one of the reasons I want to, y'all to hear from, uh, Damon, aside from him just being a, such a cool guy, is that he has one of the best stories I, I truly think you'll ever hear. It's a path of redemption. It's a path of, uh, how you communicate can truly change your, your life. So Damon, I wanna start with the question, um, right now, and then I wanna talk about your story, is ... 'Cause I'm, I'm curious how this has changed in your life. H- Damon, a- as you exist right now, Damon West, how do you daily, how do you talk to your self?

Damon West 1:56 This is a great question, Jefferson. So, and, and I talk to this about people when I'm speaking. Um, I don't listen to myself much anymore, and, and this is a technique I picked up when I was in prison. Uh, because I found out that the voice in my head sometimes was fear talking to me, and it's very hard sometimes to distinguish what's, what's saying. You know, is it fear? Is it anger? What's going on inside your head? But I know that if I talk to myself, the voice that I'm hearing on the outside is the voice I want to project out there. And when I talk to myself, which is often, I'm telling myself things like, "No, you can do this. You will do this. You've done big things before." One of the things I really try to do, Jefferson, when I talk to myself, is I remind myself of the times that I succeeded, and I think this is very important in life. We have to remind ourselves of the times when we've had success, the times that we won, and that way we can tell ourselves, you know, "I've done hard things, so I can do hard things again." Um, it's one of the lessons I, I talk about. You ever seen the movie Shawshank Redemption?

Jefferson Fisher 2:54 I have. I have seen the movie. It's a, it's a great movie.

Damon West 2:56 It's one of the best movies ever, but the last scene of the, of the movie is, you know, Andy Dufresne is, you know, he's escaped prison. He's on the beach in Mexico working on his boat. The town in Mexico that he's in is Zihuatanejo, Mexico, and the reason why this Zihuatanejo place is important, because Andy visualized himself and he talked to himself while he was in prison about the town of Zihuatanejo. He was gonna be there one day. And so what I like to remind people is that the hardest prison to do time in is the prison in your mind. Jefferson, I meet more people out here in the free world that are locked up than I ever did when I served time in a real prison, because more people are imprisoned by their thoughts, their things, and their prejudices by, than by steel bars and barbed wire and concrete combined.

Jefferson Fisher 3:38 So I, I wanna make sure I, I tee this up the right way. What I, what I hear you saying is, "You know what? I, I don't know if I listen to myself, at least those negative thoughts. I focus on the things where I know I've had success in the past." So for our listeners right now, um, I, I want you, in a nutshell, to tell them this incredible story, uh, starting from this guy in Southeast Texas, the, the road that, that has led you here, my friend.

Damon West 4:05 Yeah, I, I think the best place to start this story is, um, uh, May 18th, 2009. On May 18th, 2009, Jefferson, I'm standing in front of a jury in Dallas. A- and the jury, these 12 men and women, this jury of my peers, they just sat through a six-day criminal trial, and I'm on trial for my life at this point. And the, and the crime that I'm standing trial for, Jefferson, is, uh, engaging in organized criminal activity. It's a RICO case in the city of Dallas. Um, I was the lead person of this whole organized crime ring. I was the lead meth addict. It was a bunch of other meth addicts breaking into people's homes to s- steal for drugs. None of the, none of the crimes were aggravated, meaning no, no one was ever home, so no one got physically hurt. But when I broke into people's homes, Jefferson, I didn't just steal their property, I stole their sense of security, and that's something I can't replace and I can't give back. So the jury hears the story of Damon West, this guy that grew up in Southeast Texas, grew up in a little town called Port Arthur. Uh, great family, great athletic background. You know, in Texas, sports is everything. I grew up under the Friday night lights, went on to be a Division I starting quarterback at the University of North Texas, got hurt, and then, um, got into drugs at that point, whenever I, after I got hurt in college. And, but I had some really good jobs. I was a very functional addict. I worked in Congress in DC. I worked for a guy running for president. Then I worked on Wall Street in 2004 in Dallas, and that was the time that I was introduced to meth for the first time, in 2004. And, and then it spanned from 2004 to 2008. I went from living on Wall St- uh, working on Wall Street to living on the streets of Dallas. And whenever I was living on the streets, I became a drug addict. I became a criminal. I broke into people's homes, and Dallas SWAT finally took me down in 2008. And so the jury, after a six-day criminal trial, listening to all the evidence, and the evidence was overwhelming. I was guilty of everything they said, Jefferson. The jury listened, and that's one of the biggest things, communication. They listened to the evidence well, and they came back after a 10-minute recess. I mean, deliberations were 10 minutes, Jefferson. You're a lawyer, man. You know what that means.

Jefferson Fisher 6:08 [laughs] Yeah, yeah, I know what that... If, when they, uh, anybody listening, the jury, when they've made a decision, typically there's some kind of bell or a ding, and if they ding really quickly, uh, that's when you know it's, it's a landslide for somebody.

Damon West 6:22 Oh, yeah, and if you're the criminal defendant standing there on-

Jefferson Fisher 6:26 Yeah, not good

Damon West 6:26 ... a first-degree felony. And when the jury came back so quickly... You know, Jefferson, you'll like this as a lawyer. I had two lawyers at my trial. I didn't have a court-appointed attorney. My, my parents cashed in their retirement to get me two paid, paid attorneys, and one of my lawyers, a woman named Karen Lambert, she looked at me, she said, "Brace yourself. This is gonna be bad." And I'm like, "How bad, Karen?" She said, "Well, you were gone for that brief 10 minutes. The jury sent a note into the judge from the jury room. They asked if they could give you life without parole." And I mean, I was stunned, Jefferson. I mean, these are property crimes, man. No one was ever hurt. And I was like, "What did the judge say?" She said, "Well, no, you can't give him life without parole, but you can give him life." And that is exactly what the jury did, Jefferson. They gave me a 65-year sentence for engaged organized crime, and in Texas, 65 years is life. Anything over 60 is considered life in Texas.

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Damon West 7:59 The jury gave me 65 years that day, on May 18-

Jefferson Fisher 8:02 And how old, how, how old were you at this time?

Damon West 8:04 33 years old. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 8:05 Okay.

Damon West 8:05 I was 33 years old. I was arrested when I was 33 in the summer before by SWAT, and then 33 when I got sentenced to life in prison. And right after the trial was over, my mom and my dad get a real brief visit with me behind the glass, but my mom makes me make this promise that I won't get into one of these Aryan Brotherhood-type gangs, that I won't get any tattoos. She said, "You come back as the man that we raised or don't come back at all."

Jefferson Fisher 8:28 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 8:28 And I don't know how I'm gonna do this, Jefferson, but I run into this old guy in Dallas County Jail, this old guy named Muhammad, and it's right before the prison bus comes to pick me up to serve my sentence, and he told me this story. He said, "I want you to imagine prison as a pot of boiling water." And he said, "You're gonna have three choices how to respond to this pot of boiling water. You can be like a carrot that goes in hard but becomes softened by the water. You can be like an egg that goes in with a soft inside but becomes hardened once in the water. Or you can be like a coffee bean that changes the pot of boiling water into a pot of coffee." He said, "The coffee bean's the change agent." He said, "It's the only thing that changes the water. The power's inside the coffee bean to change the water around the coffee bean." And the last words he said to me as the prison bus was getting ready to come get me, he said, "Be a coffee bean." And Jefferson, that's what I had to do. I had to figure out how to become that coffee bean inside of one of the toughest environments possible, a Texas level five maximum security prison. And prison was a baptism by fire. It was the hardest thing I've ever been through. The first two months was violence, because that's what prison's about.

Jefferson Fisher 9:26 Yeah.

Damon West 9:26 It's about violence.

Jefferson Fisher 9:28 Now, this m- the Muhammad, he, he was there, uh, talked to you at county jail-

Damon West 9:32 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 9:32 ... right before you actually go to prison.

Damon West 9:33 Yeah, this is-

Jefferson Fisher 9:34 Okay

Damon West 9:34 ... in Dallas County Jail. He was in there on a parole violation. I didn't know much about the guy, and it's not an environment where you ask a lot of questions. He said he was in there on a parole violation, and he actually leaves, he actually leaves county jail before the prison bus comes to get me, so-

Jefferson Fisher 9:48 Okay

Damon West 9:48 ... um, he-

Jefferson Fisher 9:48 And he's a prisoner t- or, I mean, yeah, he's in county jail too.

Damon West 9:50 He's in county jail too. So it's, it's this just-

Jefferson Fisher 9:52 Okay

Damon West 9:52 ... brief encounter with people in life. But you know, Jefferson, there's a real big stor- there's a real big lesson there, and it's that you have to be receptive to all the messengers in life. You have to be willing to listen to the people-

Jefferson Fisher 10:03 Hmm

Damon West 10:03 ... around you, because you never know what the messenger's message is. And the messengers don't always look like us. They don't come with the same background as us. Um, they don't have the same-

Jefferson Fisher 10:11 Sure

Damon West 10:11 ... shared experiences, but that's where the power in the message is. And so I listened to Muhammad's message. I went to prison, transformed myself inside that prison. I became that coffee bean.

Damon West 10:20 And one of the things I had to do, Jefferson, that's, that's germane to the conversation we're gonna have today, is I had to become the best communicator possible in a world where people weren't always used to communicating like I grew up, because I was... I stood out in prison. You know, there weren't a lot of people with a background like mine, a pedigree, if you will, of being college-educated, college quarterback, worked on Wall Street.

Jefferson Fisher 10:43 [laughs] Yeah.

Damon West 10:43 You know, these are not what you find in a state prison, maybe federal prison system, but state prison, it's the streets, man. But one of the things I did when I was in prison is I, I looked around and I was observant. People have asked me before, "If you could have one superpower, what would it be?" And I, and I tell them all the time to, to be able to listen with clarity. 'Cause when you can listen to what people are telling you, then people feel like they've been heard, and everybody wants to feel like they've been heard, Jefferson. And once someone feels like they've been heard, they feel like they're part of something bigger than them, and they feel like they're part of a team. And when you can create this team atmosphere around you, anything is possible, 'cause we're all moving in the same direction with the same motion. So when I was in prison, I looked around and I'm watching these guys, and I learned about this thing called servant leadership. Servant leadership is helping other people reach their goals, helping to raise other people to a different station in life. So one of the things I did when I was in there, I started a, I started, um, a reading class. I taught guys how to read and write. I started educating men around me, getting them ready for the GED test, so if they ever get out of prison, they'd be a better husband or a better father one day. I taught guys the importance of having a healthy community. And I believe healthy communities, Jefferson, are when we all come together. We put our talents on the table. We say, "This is what I can do. If anybody can use this talent, let me know." And eventually, guys were all working in the same direction, and in 2015 I came up for my first parole review. Now, for everybody listening, parole is pretty much the only way out of prison. Um, it's a chance to get out. It doesn't mean you're free, but it means you're free to go from the, the confines of a prison and you report to a parole officer out in the free world where everybody else lives. Now-

Jefferson Fisher 12:23 Now, at this point in time, how long had you been in prison?

Damon West 12:26 Seven years and three months when I came up for my first parole.

Jefferson Fisher 12:29 Okay.

Damon West 12:29 And the reason why, and people always wanna know this, if you had a life sentence, why did you get to come up for parole so early? And it's because Texas has two different classifications of crimes. They have aggravated crimes where someone is physically-

Jefferson Fisher 12:43 Mm-hmm

Damon West 12:43 ... hurt, and they have non-aggravated where there is no physical victim and that's the class that mine in. The la- I was in the latter, the non-aggravated class of crimes. And those offenders come up for prison, for parole earlier, 'cause they're not violent criminals. And so in 2015, the parole board comes to visit me from Huntsville and, um, you know, the lady from parole called me in. She had my file in front of her. It, it was about an inch thick and it's, it's everything about you. It's your whole life, every arrest, every felony and, you know, she was flipping through the pages of that file for about 20 seconds, Jefferson. She slammed the file shut. She pushed it away. She said, "Mr. West, we don't see a lot of people like you come through the system." She said, "You had it all."

Jefferson Fisher 13:24 [laughs] I can imagine.

Damon West 13:25 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 13:25 Yeah.

Damon West 13:25 She said, "You had every advantage, every privilege and every opportunity over everybody else your entire life." She said, "But you blew through all of those privileges. You became a drug addict. You became a criminal. You come, you became a thief. A jury in Dallas gave you life in prison for the things you did, but instead of letting that license define you, you, you changed yourself inside this prison, Mr. West." And she said, "There's no doubt about the change you made to yourself, so congratulations on that." She said, "But what got our attention, the reason why we're here today, is you didn't just change yourself inside this prison, you changed the entire prison around you. One man changed an entire prison." So she says, "I have one question for you today that determines whether or not you go home or you stay in prison and your life literally depends on your answer." She said, "If you could be remembered for being anything in life, anything at all," she said, "tell me what that would be, but give it to me in just one word. Go." You know, Jefferson, I didn't have to think a lot about that answer. I'd been living that answer the whole time I was in prison and my answer to her that day was, "Useful." I said, "I just wanna be useful." Because, you know, Jefferson, I think every human being wants to feel useful. We all wanna have value in life and that's one of the things I learned by being a good listener is I listened to how people told me in prison that they wanna be useful again and that's what I told this lady that day. I said, "I, I just wanna be useful and I can be useful inside this prison or I could be useful in the free world." And on November 16th, 2015, seven years, three months and 18 days after I started serving my sentence, I walked out of a Texas maximum security prison. Now, I'm not a free man at this point in the story in 2015, 'cause I've got a little more time.

Jefferson Fisher 15:06 Yeah, you're still-

Damon West 15:07 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:07 Yeah. You're still on parole, right?

Damon West 15:09 I'm on parole till 2073.

Jefferson Fisher 15:12 Yeah, 40-

Damon West 15:12 So I got a little more time. [laughs] I got a 40-

Jefferson Fisher 15:15 Just a little bit more time.

Damon West 15:17 As, as of this recording, Jefferson, I'm 49 years old. I got 48 more years left, so I crossed the halfway mark, man. I'm halfway there, brother.

Jefferson Fisher 15:24 There you go. That's awesome.

Jefferson Fisher 15:25 Now, you, uh, the ser- the sentence you have was 65 years, right?

Damon West 15:29 Yes, it was.

Jefferson Fisher 15:31 Yeah, and that's, and that is the whole basis, I know, of your upcoming book which I'm very excited about, uh, which is Six Dimes and a Nickel, right? Is, uh-

Damon West 15:42 Correct.

Jefferson Fisher 15:43 Do I have the slang right there?

Damon West 15:45 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, you would do really well in prison, but do it from the side you're doing-

Jefferson Fisher 15:48 Probably, I probably would

Damon West 15:48 ... as a lawyer. No. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:50 Yeah.

Damon West 15:50 You're with me here.

Jefferson Fisher 15:51 I probably would.

Damon West 15:51 No. Six dimes and a nickel is prison slang for 65 years. Every 10 years is a dime, every five years is a nickel and it was actually Muhammad that first said that to me the day I got back from my trial and I was just exhausted after six days of trial and he was like, "Man, brother, I saw that they gave you six dimes and a nickel." And, um, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 16:08 Six dimes and a nickel

Damon West 16:09 ... once I got out of prison I thought that was a pretty cool term, but man when you're in prison, six dimes and a nickel's not pretty at all, brother.

Jefferson Fisher 16:14 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, you travel, um, you travel all over the world I know right now, uh, speaking and spreading this mission and the, the whole moral of the, the coffee bean, right? That's, you're the, n- known in the speaking circles.

Damon West 16:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 16:32 And you pro- it, anyone listening, you, you probably have heard Damon's, uh, whole message of being the coffee bean, meaning be the change agent that changes the water, that spreads and how you communicate and live your life that's going to change the people and community around you.

Damon West 16:51 Correct. And you have become, I've watched you in the last three years become a coffee bean because it, it, before-

Jefferson Fisher 16:57 Oh, cool

Damon West 16:57 ... you knew the term. Well, but I mean, I'm watching these videos from this lawyer that lives down the street from me in his car and I'm watching it ramp up.

Jefferson Fisher 17:03 [laughs]

Damon West 17:04 But you're changing-

Jefferson Fisher 17:05 Yeah

Damon West 17:05 ... the world. You're using the power inside you to change the world around you and so many of us out there are coffee beans and, um, but the s- the story and the message of the coffee bean, uh, it really took off. But, but you know, Jefferson, when I first got out of prison there weren't a lot of places for me to share that story and, and I mean, I found out really quickly you can't just go knock on the door of a high school and say, "I just got out of prison. I wanna talk to your kids." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 17:27 Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Can, just got out of prison. Still got, still have a lot of years of parole left.

Damon West 17:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:32 Uh, can you let me in? [laughs]

Damon West 17:33 And I wanna talk to your kids. But so-

Jefferson Fisher 17:36 Yeah

Damon West 17:36 ... when I first got out of prison I was living in my parents' spare bedroom in their house in Port Neches, Texas and, uh, I lived there for two years in their spare bedroom and in that spare bedroom there was a mirror in there. Just happened to be there when I moved in. A little vanity mirror my mom had in there. So every night for two years, Jefferson, I practiced my presentation in front of that mirror. I'd get in my reps. Here's another thing, another lesson to take away. I believe that anything you wanna be good at in life, you gotta practice that in life, right? There's no such thing as an overnight success. I would, I would wager that the videos that you shoot from your car, they're not all first takes, are they?

Jefferson Fisher 18:07 Uh, s- not all of them, no

Damon West 18:09 Yeah. Yeah, because you have to, you have to practice that. Sometimes you need a, a repertoire to get better at it. And that's what I was doing, Jefferson, for two years, just practicing-

Jefferson Fisher 18:17 Yeah

Damon West 18:17 ... in front of that mirror, getting myself ready for the right opportunity. And I believe the right opportunity would be the world of college football because I played Division I college quarterback. But the problem was it was 20 years since I took my last snap. The coaches don't know me, and I don't know them. So the date is January 11th, 2017. I've been out of prison 14 months at this point. I work at the Provost Umphrey law firm in Beaumont, Texas, right down the road from you, man.

Jefferson Fisher 18:41 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 18:41 And I'm a para- I'm a paralegal at a law... one of the most prestigious firms in our area. And, um, I get a phone call from a friend in Houston. He works in the Houston media. Houston is 90 miles from where we live. And he said, "Man, get to Houston right now. It's the Bear Bryant Coach of the Year Award. They're gonna name the best college football coach in America." He said, "The eight best coaches in the country are in this room right now. I've got a, I've got a extra press pass. I'll sneak you in." So Jefferson, I drive the 90 miles from Beaumont to Houston. He sneaks me in the back door Toyota Center, and I go into this room, and there's eight coaches in the room. It's, it's big-time coaches, USC, Wisconsin, Penn State, PJ Fleck.

Jefferson Fisher 19:17 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 19:17 And I shake these coaches' hands. I give them my pitch, and every one of them shoots me down. In one hour, I got seven no's from eight coaches in the room. That's a no every eight minutes, brother. I'm standing in the corner of Toyota Center. I'm licking my wounds. I'm feeling sorry for myself. And the voice in my head, to go back to your first question, the voice in my head is screaming at me, "Go home." The voice in my head says, "You don't belong in this room." The voice in my head calls me an imposter, and I bet everybody listening to this podcast right now knows the imposter voice. We've all felt it before. But that's when past experience kicked in, and I started talking to myself that night in the corner, 10 feet from the door, pumping myself back up, and I'm reminding myself of the times that I won. "Damon, you survived prison. This is way... This is not as bad as prison. Prison was way worse than this. You've won before."

Jefferson Fisher 20:02 [laughs] Yeah.

Damon West 20:02 "You're gonna survive tonight. The last coach is gonna tell you no, and then you go home." So I stalked Dabo Swinney around the room, the guy that just beat Cl- he just beat Alabama two nights before for the national championship, the head coach of Clemson. And, uh, I get in front of Dabo, and I give him my pitch, and it falls flat. He's just... He looks terrified to see me. He's like, "Hey, you got a card on you?" So I gave him my card. He took off. Looked like a no, felt like a no. Went home that night, slept like a baby because I left it all on the field. One of the biggest takeaways I've ever gotten from playing sports in life, Jefferson, give it all you got. Or Muhammad, Muhammad told me a little something, something a little similar whenever I was getting ready to go to prison. He said, "You don't have to win all your fights, but you do have to fight all your fights." And so that night, I fought my fights. I went home, slept like a, like a baby.

Damon West 20:47 Four months later, the guy from Clemson gets in touch with me, the, the operations director. Says, "Hey, man. Coach Swinney mentioned your award show in Houston. He'd love to have you come talk to the team. Do you have August 1st open?" [laughs] I'm like, "I got every 1st open." So, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 21:00 [laughs] Got every, every day open, yeah

Damon West 21:02 ... man, all I'm doing is talking to a mirror at that point, Jefferson. But, um, so August 2017, I speak to Clemson for the first time. Dabo's blown away. He gets on the phone, calls every coach in America. So now Nick Saban calls, Kirby Smart, Lincoln Riley, Chip Kelly, and Lane Kiffin. They're all calling me. Dabo becomes that advocate for me out there.

Jefferson Fisher 21:20 That's cool.

Damon West 21:21 Then Dabo introduced me to a guy named John Gordon, and John Gordon's one of the biggest motivational speakers, authors in America, the Energy Bus guy. And John and I write a book in 2019 called The Coffee Bean, and that book took the entire planet by storm. What you're going through right now with your worldwide book tour and all that, The Coffee Bean did to some degree, not as big as what you're doing it, but The Coffee Bean took off around the world. The reason why too, Jefferson, is because the message came at the right time. Because in the year 2020-

Jefferson Fisher 21:51 Hmm

Damon West 21:51 ... the world became a pot of boiling water. The book had a global publishing deal, so it was in every language in the world, and the whole world becomes a pot of boiling water, and the whole world was searching for the right message, and that's when so many people discovered the coffee bean guy and the coffee bean message, and my life took off on a rocket ship after that, brother. I wanna take a minute to talk to you about Momentous. I know I don't talk about it here, but I keep a very disciplined fitness routine, believe it or not. I'm a dad of two kids, so I always wanna make sure that I'm keeping up with them. The downfall is I know I'm not getting all the nutrients I need from what I'm eating. Sometimes I skip breakfast, sometimes have a very small lunch. Like you, I have a very busy, chaotic work schedule sometimes. That's just how it goes. So I started taking Momentous, a supplement company, about a year and a half ago, long before they ever reached out for this podcast. I take their protein, their creani- creatine, the L-theanine, their magnesium, the sleep stack. I've taken it for over a year and a half now, and I do it because of the quality that they send. Their ingredients are top-notch. None of... There's no artificial flavors, no artificial fillers. It's supported by my good friend, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and all 32 NFL teams, as well as the US military. Their stuff is top-notch. So if you're like me, you have a busy schedule, and you know that you could probably do with some more nutrients in your diet, I'm gonna encourage you to go to Momentous. You can go to livemomentous.com. Use the code Jefferson for 35% off your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com. Use the code Jefferson for 35% off your first subscription.

Jefferson Fisher 23:18 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 23:20 I love, I love that story. It's such a-

Damon West 23:21 It's crazy, man

Jefferson Fisher 23:22 ... uh, oh my goodness, yeah. It's, it's like point, point, .001 of the likelihood of how everything has, has turned out for you, and you're using it for, for good, and for light, and for positive, is... And that's why I wanted to make sure that my listeners heard this story. There's a, a quote that I, I've heard you say before, and I caught themes of it at the beginning of this talk, and it's this: "Talk to yourself. Don't listen to yourself." Tell, tell me a little bit more about that.

Damon West 23:57 Yeah. So To get in depth to this thing, first of all, you've gotta- the voice inside your head, there's so many things that we feed ourselves. It, it's all about what you feed yourself too, Jefferson. These, these things are related. And I don't mean like food. I'm talking about what are you consuming?

Jefferson Fisher 24:13 Like what you're listening to?

Damon West 24:14 Yeah, what are you listening to?

Jefferson Fisher 24:15 Yeah. What are you, what are you, what are you-

Damon West 24:16 What do you watch?

Jefferson Fisher 24:16 Yeah. What are you bringing on?

Damon West 24:17 What kind of TV shows do you watch? What kind of TV do you watch? And, and what-

Jefferson Fisher 24:20 Mm-hmm

Damon West 24:20 ... what kind of news do you digest? Are you watching something that calls itself news but it's people screaming at each other telling you to fear people around you? That's not news, Jefferson. That's negative entertainment. You gotta, you gotta turn that stuff off. And I don't care if it comes to the left or the right, you've gotta turn that stuff off because you are what you eat. It's not just about food. It's about what you feed your brain up there. And, and I believe that we look like-

Jefferson Fisher 24:44 Mm

Damon West 24:44 ... on the outside what we feed ourselves on the inside, food and information. And so whenever I'm talking to myself, I'm regurgitating some of the stuff that I've picked up out there on social media that was valuable, stuff like you talk about-

Jefferson Fisher 24:57 Mm

Damon West 24:57 ... in conversations, stuff that other people talk about that has value. I mean, that's one of the things. You have to be very guarded about what you let in because what you let in, you know, that's the most personal space in the world. And if you allow any person in there rent-free to just jump inside your head, it can create a lot of problems because their voice can be the voice of fear and doubt inside your head. Here's the thing, Jefferson. I know that in my life that just from my example alone, that if I could transform my world inside of a maximum security prison, then you can do it out here in this life. But the thing about it is, like I said before, I meet more people out here in the free world that are locked up than I ever did when I was in prison, and that locked up I'm talking about is mentally. Tell yourself positive things. Don't, don't ever tell yourself negative thought. I don't believe negative thoughts are natural, Jefferson. I think it's not natural to, to be down on yourself and dog yourself out. That's something that's, uh, it, it comes from something in the past. When I got into prison, I started working a 12-step program recovery called AA. And in this 12-step program recovery, you have these different steps, and the fourth step is where you lay out all the things that hold you back in life, your fears, your resentments, your doubts. You put them all on paper, and you find out why these things are causing you this grief in life, why they're holding so much space inside your head, and you work a thing called a personal inventory. Personal inventories are important, Jefferson. That's where we try to figure out what role we play in the problems we have. 'Cause here's what I believe. Every problem in my life, I play a role in that problem somewhere. And when I work through a personal inventory, I'm trying to figure out the role that I play 'cause if I can find out the role that I play in that problem, that's the only thing I can change, that's the only thing I can fix, and that's the only thing I can control.

Jefferson Fisher 26:45 I like, I like the, um, you know, when, when we, the talk to yourself, don't listen to yourself. Uh, I, I see the value in that because, yes, there... Everybody listening can relate to imposter syndrome. And how you listen to yourself can be, it can be positive, it can be negative, but typically by default, you know, I, I know that I'm my worst critic-

Damon West 27:14 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 27:14 ... with anything that, that I do. Um, and, and that's way with a- anybody. We, we like to criticize ourself on the subjective, uh, or we only listen to the thoughts that make the most sense to us, and we want to say the things that we think are going to be the most effective or be the most hurtful or whatever it is. But this talk to yourself idea I really like. And so when you say talk to yourself, what you share is think of the past times where success has come into your life and speak that into yourself. Pour that into yourself rather than... You know, I... The question I ask people a lot is, "Who are you listening to? Whose voice are you listening to?"

Damon West 28:04 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 28:04 Are you only listening to yourself, this hear what sounds good? Are you only listening to the, the negative thoughts? Do you find that when it comes to communication, you know, for example, in when you were in prison or when you're talking to the parole board, uh, how did you find communication to be the driving factor into where you are now?

Damon West 28:28 So that conversation with the parole board is, is, um, it's a textbook example about listening to the person in front of you because I'm listening for cues from her. I'm going into the most important interview of my life, and I know that the person across from me has sat through thousands of these interviews before. How am I gonna stand out? And what I'm listening for is for cues from her as to what I'm gonna say next 'cause I know all the stuff I wanna say, but I can't just go up there and throw up everything in front of this lady because I want her to listen to what I'm saying too. It's a two-way street. One of the questions she asked me in this, in this inter- in this question, in this interview, she asked me this ques- it's a poison pill question that, that parole can ask you, and it's the one that guys... I had asked a bunch of guys that had been p- in front of parole before, you know, about what the parole interview process, and they're like, "Dude, if she asks you this one question, you're dead in the water." And she asked it, Jefferson. She said, "Do you think you got too much time?" Now, here's why this is such a poison pill, Jefferson, because-

Jefferson Fisher 29:34 Oh, do you think you got too much time?

Damon West 29:36 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 29:36 In other words, did the jury give you too much time for the crime?

Damon West 29:40 Yeah. Do you think you got too much time for the crime that you did, or do you think you got the right amount of time for what you did? And so here's why it's a poison pill, Jefferson. I'm listening, and I... And because t- Before I get to the answer, I wanna talk about this other thing too, about getting your reps and practicing. That can also mean, like, thinking about the conversation you're gonna have, visualizing yourself in this conversation.

Jefferson Fisher 30:03 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 30:03 Do you ever do that, Jefferson? Do you ever visualize yourself before you're gonna go in front of a jury or before you're gonna have an important conversation? Do you-

Jefferson Fisher 30:08 Oh, of course.

Damon West 30:09 Yeah, you visualize.

Jefferson Fisher 30:10 Yeah, yeah. You, you have to have a, you have to have a goal. You have to have a where, where am I going w- with this? You can't just ... For, and for the important stuff, it's, um, it's really hard to just wing it because your expectations are, are, aren't set properly.

Damon West 30:25 Right. And, and so when you do this, I hear what you're saying right there. But specifically, do you ever start thinking about contingency questions to different answers that you're gonna get when you're doing this practice process in front of a jury?

Jefferson Fisher 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 30:41 Do you think about, "Hey, if they answer this way, if the defendant answers this way or the person on the stand, I'll ask this question," right? You have a, you have a almost a game plan.

Jefferson Fisher 30:49 Yeah, for sure.

Damon West 30:51 Yeah. So that's what I was able to do because I was willing to prepare and ask a lot of questions beforehand. I was willing to put the time in before this big, important interview and when she asked the question, I had the answer ready to go. "So did you get too much time, Mr. West?" And I told her. The only thing I could figure out to answer Jefferson was to just be straight up with her. I said, "Ma'am, I don't, I don't feel like there's a good answer I can give you and, and here's why. Because I feel if there's peril if I say I got too much time, then you'll say I haven't accepted responsibility for the crimes that I've committed, which I clearly have and I've worked on myself inside this prison to become a better man."

Jefferson Fisher 31:26 Mm.

Damon West 31:27 "Um, but if I tell you I got the right amount of time, then you could tell me, 'Well, sit here in prison and serve some more of that time,' because guys with your kind of time don't make their first parole." And so, my answer to her was, "I don't feel like there's a good answer for me and here's the reasons why." And she actually surprised me with her response answer. She said, "Well, I'll answer the question for you, Mr. West. You got too much time." I have to tell you something. For the past two, three years or so, I've become the chef of the family. Not that my wife can't cook. She's an amazing cook. I just like it. I find that I really enjoy it. I am not only the breakfast maker, I am also the dinner maker. That means I become much more aware of what kind of pots and pans we're going to use and what I cook with. So I have to tell you about a brand called Our Place. These are some of the most functional cookware sets I've ever had. I've been using them for a couple of months now and they're phenomenal. Not only are they non-stick, not Teflon, not harmful chemicals or toxins, they're ceramic. So the eggs, when you make a fried egg, it's, comes out perfectly. They're not crazy heavy. They're easy. They look good. I can't say enough good things about them. It's, I'm telling you, once I tried these, I have not gone back. So if you're like me and you really care about your cookware, then you, you need to try Our Place. They are good for a reason. They're used by Michelin star rated chefs and they have I think over 80,000 five-star reviews for a reason. So stop cooking with toxic cookware and upgrade to Our Place today. You can go to fromourplace.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 10% off. That is fromourplace.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 10% off sitewide. They have 100 day risk-free trial and free shipping and returns.

Damon West 33:13 When I, when I got out of prison, I went back to school at Lamar University right by where we live.

Jefferson Fisher 33:18 Yeah.

Damon West 33:18 I went and got a master's degree in criminal justice. I wanted people to take me more serious than the guy that, that just got out of prison so I went and got a master's degree and, and I became a professor at the University of Houston, uh, downtown teaching a class called Prisons in America. Became the only-

Jefferson Fisher 33:32 Is that right?

Damon West 33:33 Yeah. Became the only-

Jefferson Fisher 33:33 Oh, wow

Damon West 33:33 ... professor on the planet to, to teach a prisons class at university. [laughs] So-

Jefferson Fisher 33:37 Who'd been to prison. [laughs]

Damon West 33:39 Yeah. Well, it's like, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 33:40 It is

Damon West 33:40 ... we had a textbook.

Jefferson Fisher 33:41 Served seven years of prison.

Damon West 33:42 Yeah. We had a textbook, but I was the textbook in this class. I mean, I was the, you know, like-

Jefferson Fisher 33:46 Yeah

Damon West 33:46 ... ask me about this and I can answer the question for you. But I found out, Jefferson, and I wanna bounce this off of you. I've been, been itching to ask you this. Um, I think juries, whenever they give out a lot of time like they gave me, they do it for one or two reasons or both. I think they're really angry at the person across from them or they're really scared of the person across from them or they could be both and I think the jury was really angry at me because the guy you're talking to today, Jefferson, this is w- this is not the guy that I was back then. I mean, I was a really cocky-

Jefferson Fisher 34:21 Mm

Damon West 34:22 ... arrogant college quarterback. I was the stereotypical jock. I mean, just a guy, I didn't listen to anybody back then. The only voice I wanted to hear was mine coming out of my mouth. I was very-

Jefferson Fisher 34:32 Mm-hmm

Damon West 34:32 ... much centered on myself. But prison separated me from a lot of things in life, but one of the main things it separated me from was my ego and that ego separation was something that a guy like me needed. I got knocked down to the ground as hard as you could. Um, and the self-talk, there's no way I get to where I am without positive self-talk inside that prison. It's the most, it's the most negative environment there is and everything about you is m- to reinforce more negativity and it's, by design prison is a punishment, but it's all the extra stuff that's unpleasurable, right?

Jefferson Fisher 35:06 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Damon West 35:07 Um, the, the self-talk i- is so important. It was critical in there for me to have positive self-talk and I, listen Jefferson, I would separate myself from the other people in that prison when I, and I didn't wanna be around the negativity. I would stay in my cell and read books. Um, a- again, feeding yourself the right stuff. Uh, books, books were important to me in prison. Two things I learned about books in there. I never saw a guy reading a book get into a fight and I never saw a fight over a book. Books were safe.

Jefferson Fisher 35:36 [laughs] Yeah.

Damon West 35:37 They were good.

Jefferson Fisher 35:38 Yeah. What about a fight using a book? I mean-

Damon West 35:40 [laughs] I've seen a fight using a book. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:42 [laughs] Yeah. That's a little different.

Damon West 35:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 35:45 Well, I wanna make sure, speaking, speaking of books, you have one coming out soon. I'm, I'm really excited to, to read it, Damon. It's, uh, The Six Times and a Nickel. Uh, why don't you tell us real, real quick what's, what are you hoping to do with this book?

Damon West 36:01 Yes. All right, thanks Jeff. Thanks for asking, Jefferson. So-

Jefferson Fisher 36:04 Yeah

Damon West 36:04 ... this book is my life's work. Six dimes and a nickel, as you know, is prison slang for 65 years, and it's what, basically this book is all the life lessons I've learned from a life sentence. Because I'm still serving my life sentence, by the way. I'm on parole the rest of my life, so I am continuously serving that life sentence. I'm a storyteller, Jefferson, and I believe human beings have always learned from storytellers, right? We've learned lessons, morals, principles. We've been entertained by storytellers for millennia. So I believe people learn best from stories. So what I've done with this book is every chapter is a principle I live my life by. The body of the chapter is a story behind it, and at the end of every chapter is a reflection piece of how you can apply this principle in your life, too. The book starts off with a question, and it's a question I first heard from James Clear. The question is this: If someone took control of your life tomorrow, what's the first thing they would change? It was a very thought-provoking question when I read this a couple years ago.

Jefferson Fisher 37:01 Mm-hmm.

Damon West 37:02 Because I put myself in a position, Jefferson, in life where someone did take control of my life. The Texas Department of Criminal Justice did take control of Damon West's life. And the trick to this question is if you can answer the question, then the question becomes, why have you not already made the change? If you know the change you have to make, why have you not already made the change? And the reason why I believe we're reluctant to change is 'cause change is scary. Change is difficult. Change, change, um, change takes us out-

Jefferson Fisher 37:28 Or we don't want to. [laughs]

Damon West 37:29 Yeah, we ta- It, yeah, we don't want to, or it takes us outside of our comfort zone. And-

Jefferson Fisher 37:33 Mm.

Damon West 37:34 But that's a good place to navigate towards, Jefferson, you- outside your comfort zone, 'cause that's where growth takes place. Growth takes place outside of our comfort zones. The whole book is about these principles and, and, and how you apply them to your life. Like, you know, one of the principles is, is stay in your lane. You know, I learned in prison-

Jefferson Fisher 37:51 Mm-hmm

Damon West 37:51 ... the importance of staying in your lane. Staying in your lane means, you know, find your path and work on your path. Don't try to do someone else's path. Find what you're good at and go and do that at full speed. Because I believe that when we get off of our path, what's meant for us, we, first of all, we're distracted from the main goal in our life, and it takes us longer to get where we wanna go. Or sometimes we get off the path and we never find our way back. But when you find-

Jefferson Fisher 38:15 Right

Damon West 38:16 ... your path, you've got to explore that. And in my life, in that book, you know, stay in your lane. A couple years ago, Jefferson, so many people were reaching out to me in this world of coaching, and I'm putting my fingers up in these quotation marks because there's so many frauds and phonies that I've found on... You, you see them on social media in this world of coaching, man. The people that-

Jefferson Fisher 38:37 Yeah, there's a lot of life coaches.

Damon West 38:39 Oh-

Jefferson Fisher 38:39 A lot of-

Damon West 38:40 ... God, man, it's-

Jefferson Fisher 38:40 ... a lot of life [laughs] coaches.

Damon West 38:41 It's exhausting. So I'm having a conversation in the sto- in the, in the bu-

Jefferson Fisher 38:45 Which there's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it, for sure.

Damon West 38:47 Well, there's good ones out there.

Jefferson Fisher 38:48 There, but there, there's certainly, yeah, that like anything, there are, like attorneys, like, uh-

Damon West 38:54 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 38:54 ... anybody. There, there are people that are real and truly affect change, and there are people who are in it for selfish reasons and aren't, aren't teaching things that are uplifting.

Damon West 39:04 Yeah, and there's, th- like I said, there's good ones out there. There's people that are principled and moral and th- and I believe everybody needs a coach. I believe everybody does need a mentor-

Jefferson Fisher 39:11 Yeah

Damon West 39:11 ... of some kind. I've-

Jefferson Fisher 39:12 Absolutely.

Damon West 39:13 I've had my share of them. Um, one of my main coaches in life is my sponsor in AA, man. I talk to this guy every week, man. He knows everything about me, and he's, he's a very good man.

Jefferson Fisher 39:23 And you're still doing it. I mean-

Damon West 39:24 Good

Jefferson Fisher 39:24 ... that, that's what I wanna emphasize. You're still on parole. You're still doing all the things, checking every box, and you'll continue to check every box, you know, for [laughs] the rest of your life.

Damon West 39:34 Yeah. I, I-

Jefferson Fisher 39:35 Yeah.

Damon West 39:35 Well, here's the deal. Do it or die, because if I don't do these things differently than everybody else that's come before, and I'm on parole the rest of my life, Jefferson. I see my, I see my PO in Beaumont every month. I pee in a cup. If I fail a drug test, I go back to prison. Um-

Jefferson Fisher 39:50 Yeah

Damon West 39:50 ... one drug test is all it takes for me. Um, but I have, I have these rules I live by, and one of them is that my recovery is not optional, man. It's, it's important. I have to, like, keep going to my meetings. I go to two or three meetings a week. I've got an app on my phone that tells me where the meetings are on the road. I just type in the zip code wherever I am and... But there's other things I do, Jefferson, that, that other people don't do 'cause they're not up against the same... Everybody's path is different, right? I'm-

Jefferson Fisher 40:14 Mm-hmm

Damon West 40:15 ... I'm never alone in a situation with a woman that's not my wife, and it's not like I'm worried-

Jefferson Fisher 40:19 Mm-hmm

Damon West 40:20 ... about being tempted. It's that I don't wanna put myself in a situation where I need the benefit of the doubt because I can't-

Jefferson Fisher 40:26 Right

Damon West 40:26 ... go into a courtroom again, Jefferson. I can't go take the stand in a case. I mean, the most junior prosecutor in the world would go up to the, and first question would be, "Mr. West, you know, tell us, uh, you know, let's hear from the guy that would say anything to not go back to prison." First question. Now the jury thinks you're a liar, [laughs] so.

Jefferson Fisher 40:43 [laughs] E- e- exactly.

Damon West 40:45 I have to avoid-

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 Yeah, we've-

Damon West 40:46 ... a courtroom at all costs, Jefferson. So this is, uh-

Jefferson Fisher 40:49 Yeah

Damon West 40:49 ... being a good communicator also means knowing, uh, you know, knowing where you can and cannot go. Where is a good pl- I mean, we all have our different levels of danger for us, and my danger just happens to be-

Jefferson Fisher 41:00 Mm-hmm

Damon West 41:00 ... the fact that I don't get another second chance. I already got my second chance in life. But here's what I've also found, though, Jefferson, is that when we adopt this mindset of, of serving other people, helping other people reach their goals, and this is where the good coaches come in. When we adopt that mindset of helping other people, it doesn't just help the person, it helps us become a better person, too. And I think service work is a big key to a- anything you wanna be good at in life. You gotta learn how to serve other people.

Jefferson Fisher 41:29 Mm.

Damon West 41:29 And that was one of the biggest things I learned when I was in prison, that by my service to these other guys around me, they became more receptive to a conversation with me. And it opens people up-

Jefferson Fisher 41:40 Mm

Damon West 41:40 ... to, uh, who you really are on the inside and not just what they see on the outside.

Jefferson Fisher 41:44 I love that, Damon. Um, I, I think this message, anybody who's listening can relate to the idea, and certainly knows people in their life who have been knocked down to level zero. And they're not sure how to either get back up or get back where they are or what they're gonna do with their life. And what I've learned through our conversation Is one, when you can at all times use your communication for good to be the coffee bean, the change agent, you're gonna change that, that pot of boiling water. Two, you want to talk to yourself. Don't just listen to yourself, because usually it's our own voice that is the root and seed of the negative, the negative mindset, the negative talk. And three, I love what you just said right there. When you can begin a relationship with service, when you can begin a conversation with service, and that service might be, "Let me ask questions." That service might be, "Let me shower you with compliments," and, and genuinely. Or whatever it is, you're gonna serve that person, and that is the, how you're going to initiate conversation. That's going to lead to much better communication because it's gonna open them up in conversation, Damon. I, I think this has just been, um, an awesome time, an awesome talk, brother. And, uh, that to share with the audience from Southeast Texas, uh, that ain't, that ain't never a bad thing, my man.

Damon West 43:06 And I would add a fourth thing to, to the three you just named off, which you're a great listener-

Jefferson Fisher 43:11 Let's hear it

Damon West 43:11 ... of those things. It's the one thing I told every single man I ever encountered in prison. It's the same thing I tell every single person that comes to me now in this life. It's four words that are so powerful, Jefferson. This is, like, for everyone trying to communicate out there. These four words are the four words that you usually hear in life from a teacher, a coach, maybe a parent told you this, but it's the same four words. One of my favorite teachers reached out to me when I was in prison, wrote me a letter, and, and this teacher was the one that planted the seed for everything going on now. And he was telling me, he said, "You should share your story with people when you get out. You should start planning now and while you're in prison to share your story, 'cause I believe when you turn it around," he told me, "When you turn it around, you're gonna bring other people hope." And he had these four words in this letter, and because these four words were in this letter, I carried that letter with me everywhere in prison. The letter's worn out now. It's like you can barely read it. Those four words, "I believe in you." There's something magical that happens, Jefferson, when we hear that coming from someone else, man. Not just us telling ourselves-

Jefferson Fisher 44:17 Mm-hmm

Damon West 44:17 ... you know, you believe in yourself. But when someone else tells you-

Jefferson Fisher 44:19 Mm

Damon West 44:19 ... they believe in you, man, something magical happens today. I would run around that prison. It's crazy, Jefferson. I go into prisons a lot now. I go into Tex- I go into a prison somewhere in America every month. I voluntarily walk in, 'cause I believe that's one of the reasons I got out, was to go back. And I hear these guys repeating that to each other in those prisons now in Texas. They're telling each other, "I believe in you." And that changes a person on the inside, Jefferson.

Jefferson Fisher 44:42 Yeah, absolutely. Man, that's amazing work, Damon. Thank you for the, the mission that you're on and, and continuing to spread positivity and light, man. I, I think you're just doing awesome stuff. I've, I loved having, [chuckles] having you on today. Six dimes and a nickel, uh, all the life lessons you need if you wanna be a change agent for good and positive, positive things in your life. Damon, thanks for coming on, man.

Damon West 45:06 Awesome, Jefferson. Thanks a lot for having me, man. Thanks a lot.

Jefferson Fisher 45:09 Yeah, brother. Thank you.