CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:25
Knee surgery history and the depth of Ben Patrick’s injuries
Joe and Ben open by comparing their knee histories, setting up why knee health became central to Ben’s life. Ben describes rare procedures—an artificial kneecap piece, a meniscus transplant, and a quad tendon repair—and how long he struggled afterward.
- •Joe’s history of reconstructed knees and long-term knee “weird issues”
- •Ben’s partially artificial kneecap after a fractured patella section
- •Meniscus transplant (cadaver) and surprisingly quick improvement
- •Quad tendon repair and chronic post-surgery pain leading to experimentation
- 2:25 – 3:38
From “knees falling apart” to building a system: ATG, books, and early mission
They introduce Ben’s public persona (KneesOverToesGuy) and Athletic Truth Group (ATG). Ben outlines his books and how his coaching/business evolved from a local gym into a broader method accessible online.
- •KneesOverToesGuy brand and Athletic Truth Group origins
- •Books: "Knee Ability Zero" and "ATG for Life" as entry points
- •COVID forcing a bodyweight/no-gym approach for trainees
- •Seven-year gym background before scaling online
- 3:38 – 5:16
The core idea: reversing the “knees over toes is dangerous” dogma
Ben explains the pivotal insight that contradicted conventional gym advice: training knees over toes can reduce injury risk rather than cause it. He traces his initial clue to Charles Poliquin and early experimentation that prioritized pain-free progressions.
- •Charles Poliquin as the first major clue for Ben’s research
- •Old coaching cue: never let knees go over toes in squats
- •Keegan Smith examples and intentionally training the position
- •Early trial-and-error approach to find low-pain entry points
- 5:16 – 9:01
Backward sled as the breakthrough: why it worked and where it came from
Ben describes backward sled dragging as the most reliable, low-pain starting point for rebuilding knees. He also gives a lineage of the idea—backward walking in China, dragging in Finnish forestry, and Louie Simmons popularizing sled work in strength culture.
- •Backward sled as the “lowest level” knees-over-toes entry point
- •DIY solutions (even moving a car in neutral) to recreate the stimulus
- •China: backward walking for cartilage/arthritis prevention
- •Finland: dragging in forestry; Louie Simmons spreading sled training concepts
- 9:01 – 21:59
Sled training principles: safety, frequency, and gym setup details
Joe shares how sled work has noticeably stabilized his knees, then Ben explains why sled work is unusually safe: the sled doesn’t move you, you move it. They get practical about turf, sled types, belts/harnesses, treadmill alternatives, and how often to do it.
- •Joe’s use case: kick-heavy training and meniscus torque management
- •Why sled is safer than squats: no forced eccentric from external load
- •Ben’s template: sled every session, squat once weekly (example split)
- •Gear/setup: turf length/width, Rogue dog sled, waist belt vs chest harness
- •Backward treadmill (engine off) caveat: good for humans, hard on machines
- 21:59 – 27:54
How Ben built the method despite institutions: scholarships, textbook lag, and a hard pivot
Ben tells the story of earning a D1 scholarship late—then being told he couldn’t use the very training that got him there. He argues the education pipeline lags behind emerging evidence, and that conflict pushed him to become a full-time coach.
- •From “painting walls” and relentless research to JUCO then D1 at 23
- •College strength coach banning knees-over-toes movements
- •Eligibility denial and decision to withdraw rather than fight the system
- •Broader point: textbooks/curricula change slowly despite new data
- •Motivation to build an alternative training model outside institutions
- 27:54 – 35:19
Scaling results via social media: obsessive execution and living for the mission
Ben explains how in-person client results led him to social media, despite initially hating it. He describes extreme discipline—massive message volume, cutting entertainment, and strict eating—to maximize reach and help more people.
- •Becoming “the knee guy” in Clearwater, Florida through real client outcomes
- •Learning social media deliberately (Gary V as a model for authenticity)
- •Answering 500,000+ messages before hitting 100k followers
- •Monastic year: no TV/games/sports, no cheat meals
- •Motivation: replacing temporary pleasures with meaningful work and family time
- 35:19 – 48:11
Mindset detour: attention, finding purpose, and learning through loss
The conversation shifts into motivation and identity—how people focus when they care deeply, and how losses drive growth. Joe shares his own story of struggling in school, then thriving after discovering martial arts, and connects it to resilience in sports and life.
- •Choosing interests that unlock obsessive focus vs forced attention
- •Joe’s martial arts discovery as a turning point for discipline and success
- •Why losing is essential feedback (sports, comedy, fighting)
- •Ngannou example: psychological loss, rebuilding, and championship growth
- •Ben’s reframing: being “typecast” can become an advantage with time and work
- 48:11 – 1:04:32
Who benefits most: damaged cartilage, the 100-mile idea, and why “pressure” matters
They return to knees: Ben argues that worse damage often means the sled is even more important because it restores circulation and communication to the area. He explains why knee-over-toes positions create useful pressure, and why motion/compression deliver nutrients via synovial fluid.
- •More knee damage → greater need for low-risk circulation-based work
- •Progression logic: if you can walk, you can walk backward; then add resistance
- •“100 miles backward resisted” as a commitment benchmark for certainty
- •Pressure and motion as inputs for healing (synovial fluid nutrient delivery)
- •Reversing the misconception: avoiding pressure can accelerate joint fragility
- 1:04:32 – 1:09:23
Recovery and nutrition: RICE debate, supplements refusal, and meat/fruit eating
Ben challenges traditional recovery thinking—especially over-reliance on icing—and explains why he avoids recovery modalities and supplements to isolate what exercise alone can accomplish. They discuss vitamins, omega-3/D3, and Ben’s simple meat-and-fruit eating pattern with fruit as dessert.
- •RICE creator later recanting: motion and blood flow may aid healing
- •Ice: can reduce pain, may delay healing if overused as a default strategy
- •Ben’s stance: no massage/sauna/cold plunge/supplements to validate training effect
- •Joe’s view: vitamins optimize health (omega-3s, D3) especially with age
- •Diet specifics: coffee+protein breakfast, rotisserie chicken lunch, meat/fruit dinner, fruit dessert
- 1:09:23 – 1:31:08
Strength-through-flexibility: split squats, loaded stretching, and debunking flexibility myths
Ben demonstrates (and later explains) advanced knee range and discusses building flexibility through strength work rather than passive stretching. They cover exercises that create “access” to ranges—ATG split squats, RDL patterns, Jefferson curls, and even weighted butterfly work for the groin.
- •Demo: pain-free kneeling “knees” lean-back and the years of progression behind it
- •Core concept: be strong anywhere you can reach; flexibility + strength together
- •ATG split squat as a hip-flexor lengthening strength drill
- •Loaded mobility examples: RDLs with stretch intent, Jefferson curls
- •Weighted butterfly (dumbbells on knees) to strengthen groin through range
- 1:31:08 – 1:36:15
Flexibility proof: freak athletes, Tom Platz, and ‘flexibility is access’
Joe and Ben use striking examples—One Championship’s Nong-O/Oumar Kane-style flexibility clips (as referenced) and Tom Platz—to show muscularity and flexibility can coexist. Ben frames flexibility as access to more strength and adaptation, not a trade-off that reduces explosiveness.
- •Counterexample to “flexibility makes you slow”: elite fighters and hyper-flexible strong athletes
- •Tom Platz as evidence: extreme legs paired with notable flexibility
- •Flexibility as “access” to train more angles and develop more athletic options
- •Myth correction: the problem is often weak + tight, not “too flexible”
- •Practical implication: build strength through end ranges rather than avoiding them
- 1:36:15 – 1:50:26
Beyond knees: bulletproofing shoulders, elbows, wrists, core, and decelerators
Ben broadens the method to upper body and trunk: full range, reverse patterns, and measurable loading for neglected stabilizers. They discuss hip flexor/lower-ab cable work, QL training for rotation, shoulder external rotation using dumbbells vs cables, and a simple weekly schedule structure.
- •Transfer principle: train reverse/deceleration muscles to protect performance patterns
- •Core focus: lifting the feet (loaded reverse sit-up/hip flexor work)
- •QL training (sideways back extension) for lateral/rotational resilience
- •Shoulder external rotation: alternating dumbbell vs cable for different resistance curves
- •Weekly structure: legs Mon/Thu, upper Tue/Fri, flexibility Wed/weekend; sled every session
- 1:50:26 – 1:56:55
Programming responsibly: regressions, coaching form online, and making it affordable
Joe notes that many of these movements benefit from supervision; Ben agrees and explains why he hesitated to go online. He details how ATG built a system around form review at scale, using regressions so beginners (including his mom) can safely progress.
- •Risk management via regressions rather than forcing advanced movements
- •Initial reluctance to sell online programs without seeing form
- •Scaling through form-video coaching: “hundreds of thousands” reviewed
- •Single-tier affordable coaching model and building a coaching team from alumni
- •Design constraint: every exercise should be approachable—even for older beginners
- 1:56:55 – 1:58:45
Wrap-up: where to find Ben’s content, books, and Joe’s results using the system
They close with Ben’s links and resources, plus Joe’s endorsement that the training has measurably improved his knees and ability to kick at 54. Ben reiterates the mission: give away enough to help people, and provide coaching for those who want precision and guidance.
- •Where to follow: Instagram/YouTube @KneesOverToesGuy
- •Books on Amazon: "Knee Ability Zero" and "ATG for Life"
- •ATG coaching offering for form feedback and full programming access
- •Joe’s testimonial: stronger knees and continued martial arts performance
- •Final encouragement: start simple, stay consistent, progress patiently
