JRE MMA Show #39 with Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:00 (glass clinking) Yes, sir. (liquid pouring)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Cheers.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:07 Cheers. (glasses clanking)

Joe Rogan 0:08 And we're live.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:09 And we're live. There's so much to talk about.

Joe Rogan 0:11 Obviously. So much to talk about.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:13 It's been years.

Joe Rogan 0:14 It's been a while. It's been a while.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:16 It's been a while.

Joe Rogan 0:16 And, uh, one of the reasons why you're here is because... (smacks lips) I was supposed to have Jackson Win- I mean, we should just get right into this. I was supposed to-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:22 You think we should get into it or should we-

Joe Rogan 0:24 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:24 ... let the-

Joe Rogan 0:25 Let the Budweiser settle in?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:27 Let the Budweiser kick. I haven't even eaten breakfast. I specif-

Joe Rogan 0:29 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:30 ... ially didn't eat breakfast. I'm like, "I'm gonna drink beer with Joe." I already know he's getting me beer, and that way it can hit me a lot faster and I'll loosen up my lips a lot sooner.

Joe Rogan 0:37 We can do whatever you want, man.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:38 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:39 It's up to you. You're looking thick, dude. How much do you weigh now?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:42 (coughs) Man, so I've been, um... So here's a crazy story. (smacks lips) I go to, I go to, um, the PI to... 'Cause Dana tells me I can't go to 55, so I go to talk to the P-

Joe Rogan 0:52 He told you you can't go? Why?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 0:54 Well, 'cause he says I'm, I'm getting old and... Older. Well, I should say he said old. I'm getting old. And it's wor-

Joe Rogan 1:00 The weight cut's too hard?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01 The weight cut, right? So I said, "All right. I'm gonna go to the, to the PI. You guys have this amazing facility with..."

Joe Rogan 1:06 The PI stands for Performance Institute, for people who know.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10 For certain, there you go. UFC Performance Institute.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:12 And, uh, they have trainers and dietician, nutrition, right? So I'm, I'm going there to meet with them to get a, a guideline and some kind of plan that we can attack so I can go to Dana like, "Look, I met with your guys. They said it's okay." While I'm there, second day into all this, like, crazy testing you do, right? They have all kinds of tests that they run where you get on these bikes and... You know what I mean? Like, fuck, I was at, like, a Olympic training center testing. Um, uh, I wanted to say Joe Silva walked in, but then that's not right 'cause he's not there anymore. So, uh...

Joe Rogan 1:43 Nick Maynard?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:44 No, um, Sean Shelby-

Joe Rogan 1:45 Sean Shelby?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:45 ... comes in and says, "Cowboy, uh, Mike Perry really wants to fight you. You want to take this fight?" And I was like, "Uh, well, I thought I was going to 55." And he said, "Yeah, he called you out and he really wants to fight you." And I was like, "Well, fuck. Okay, I'll fight him. Sure. Done. F- That's fine. But next one, can I go to 55?" You know? Like, goddamn. So the, how this Perry thing all started was, um, Felder's opponent got hurt. Um, I called to fight Gaethje 'cause, 'cause Vick got hurt. So I was like, "I'll go to 55, fight Gaethje." Um, and then crazy shit just happened, and then the Perry fight they offered me and I called Perry, said, "Hey, man. I know we're training together, but this is 10 days notice. Let's do this." He's like, "Fuck yeah, man. It'd be great. Let's do this." So that's how that started, and then w- I didn't get to fight. That was the end of it for me. I went to the UFC to go back to 155, and then all of a sudden he's calling me out and-

Joe Rogan 2:33 So, Felder winds up fighting Perry.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 2:35 Perry.

Joe Rogan 2:36 You were, you were gonna fight Perry, or you were at least thinking about it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 2:38 Yeah, I was like in the mix, right?

Joe Rogan 2:39 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 2:39 But I couldn't... I, I didn't get cleared because I had stitches, 'cause I had just fought, uh, what? I don't know, 10 days before, so... Um, plus I was in the hospital having my new son, so it was kind of a weird time for everything, but I- it was wild. It was wild. Wild shit, and now, now, now I'm fighting Perry November 10th in Denver. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:58 Well, what was, what was gonna happen was Jackson and Winkeljohn were supposed to be here today.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:06 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:08 Well, you had... I mean, you've been with them for how long?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:14 (smacks lips) Man, I wanna say (sighs) before my WC days. So I went on the-

Joe Rogan 3:21 More than 10 years.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:22 Yeah, easily.

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:24 Easily more than 10 years. I, I, I don't think there's another athlete there that's been there longer, besides Diego Sanchez, who's been there since the beginning, but-

Joe Rogan 3:32 Diego left for a little while.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:34 Left for a little while, came back, um-

Joe Rogan 3:37 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:37 So me, you know, Holly, but she was with Wink before he, they merged. So, but like with actually, Jackson, Jackson, I'm like there. I'm like the one. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:45 I'm like it.

Joe Rogan 3:46 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:46 You know, everyone else kind of either left the gym or is retired.

Joe Rogan 3:51 (smacks lips) So, what the fuck happened? Like, how, how did they decide that they were gonna corner Mike Perry? Who, by the way, I like a lot. Uh, he's not-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:57 And I got noth- And I have nothing against this-

Joe Rogan 3:59 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 3:59 ... guy, Perry, either. I don't... This, this, this has nothing to do with-

Joe Rogan 4:01 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 4:01 ... with Perry. It has nothi-

Joe Rogan 4:02 He's a fun dude.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 4:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:03 I like that guy a lot.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 4:04 So I, I-

Joe Rogan 4:04 I have no problem with him.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 4:05 I mean, I took him on the boat, took him shooting with me, and when he was down there part of, part of the action, you know, uh, Frank Lester, who's helping him with his pads, friend of mine, you know, so he comes out shooting with me. We go out in the boat and have fun, and, um... So this has nothing to do with them. I had just asked when... I went to go to 55 and then Perry called me out and wants to fight. "Sure, no problem." But I went to talk to Greg and Wink and say, "Hey, this guy's brand new to the gym." Right? "He's only been here one camp, couple of months." I said, "I don't think that it's okay for him to ch- come in and call me out." Like, "That's not, not, not right." So if he is doing that, I don't think we should allow him to, to train here for this fight. And fucking Winkeljohn tells me, "Yeah, you know, I thought you called him out and, oh." He's just a, just a shit ass and lies like to your face. So to me he was like, "Yeah, sure. No problem. I'll, I'll clear it up and we won't have any issues." Um, and then the next day he calls me on the phone and says, "You know what?" (smacks lips) "Uh, I thought about it. If we don't have Perry, then I don't get paid and I need to get paid for this fight, and, uh, uh, 'cause you just pay Greg, I don't make any money through the gym, so we're just gonna go with him." And then basically tells me I'm no longer welcome in the gym (laughs) and he is. He said, "The team had a meeting." Bullshit, the team didn't have a meeting. I talked to everybody. The, the... I mean, there, there was no meeting, there was no hi- So, to me it's like the loyalty of Wink taking over this gym is just, it's just shit, man. Turned into like a puppy mill. It's all, it's all about money now, and not the old Jackson. When, when I used to work out... We're just getting into this, I guess, huh? (smacks lips) All right.

Joe Rogan 5:36 Start chugging.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 5:37 Start chugging. Shit. Back when I first moved down here and I went to Greg's, when the Tapout guys picked me up and introduced me and all that, right?

Joe Rogan 5:47 Back when you were on the Tapout show. Remember that?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 5:49 On the show, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:49 That, uh, reality show.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 5:50 Well, Mask called Greg and got me... That's how I, I got involved with them, right? I... (laughs) All right.

Joe Rogan 5:56 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 5:59 (mouth clicks) Motherfu-I left... Leonard Garcia was fighting Roger Wartell, one of my best friends. Roger Wartell called-

Joe Rogan 6:06 What a fight that was, by the way.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:07 God, damn right.

Joe Rogan 6:08 Woo!

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:08 Motherfucking Mexicans-

Joe Rogan 6:09 People forgot.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:10 ... throwing down.

Joe Rogan 6:10 (laughs) For- forgot about that fight.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:12 Dude.

Joe Rogan 6:12 Go to Fight Pass, check that one out.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:14 (laughs) Yeah, right. Google, bring that up. Um, Leonard's still wildest dude I've ever met, man. Just-

Joe Rogan 6:19 I love that guy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:19 So do I, man. And, um, so he calls me like, "Cowboy, I need you to come down for a week. Come for one week, help me get ready for Roger." He took the fight on like three weeks notice. Something cr- outlandish, just like me and Leonard do, right? So, I go down there. I literally never left. When I went down, first day I walked into Jackson's and Rashad, Keith, St. Pierre, Joe Daddy Stevenson, uh... I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And I was like, "Wow, this is what a real gym is like? This is what..." And they all accepted me. It was like a, like... I was like, in the family, right? I call... I owned a house in Denver. I called my grandma and said, "I'm never coming home. I'm staying here."

Joe Rogan 6:57 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 6:57 Sell the house, right? And I literally never went home. She would just slowly come down to visit me and bring me truckloads of shit.

Joe Rogan 7:04 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 7:04 Right? Literally. I lived in a closet, man, f- fuck, a third as big as this room. We had a bunk bed, me and Leonard. And, uh, if one person was standing up, the other person had to be in the bed. That's how small this room was.

Joe Rogan 7:18 Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 7:18 And I lived there for two years, above, above Jackson's, and would train every day with him. Like I said, I never left. And, uh, Greg asked me, he sat me down after about, I don't know, a couple weeks of being there, and he said, "Man, I want you to be my 55er." And at that time, he had a... There was a... The list of 55ers were nuts, that he had. And I was like, "Wow, fuck. Greg Jackson," who at the time was the man, man, right? That... The, the gym was f- like a 90% winning rate and... He just, he's such a knowledgeable, awesome dude, man. And to see where the gym was to where the gym is now is... It's like heartbreaking to me, to be honest. And I... And you wanna talk about loyalty, which is the biggest thing in this conversation that we're having right now, is how they picked someone over me through being loyal, I stuck by Greg, even when the gym started going down. When Winkeljohn merged over, all the big pros left. It turned into like a puppy mill. You know? It wasn't... For, for... Back when Greg had it and it was its own school, you couldn't turn up to a pro class. Like, like some guy couldn't just come here, knock on your door. Like you say, you get weirdos here all the time. Next thing you know, he has shin pads on and he's sparring. There's literally, at the new gym, bums coming off the street, I swear to God, and will fight these... And will come in to put stuff on a fight. That's a true story. Random bums off the street. And, uh, that would never happen back in the day. It was just-

Joe Rogan 8:39 So, Greg doesn't run it anymore?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 8:40 No. He has... He's like, so out of the loop. Winkeljohn runs the entire thing. And that's what-

Joe Rogan 8:45 What is, what is Greg doing?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 8:46 He kind of stepped back for a couple years, man. Like, kind of started doing other things and just kind of got burned out, I guess. Which is why I created the BMF Ranch. I needed somewhere to go and something to do, so I created my own place. Which is Wink's argument with me right now, saying, "You be at your old place. You don't ever come here," blah, blah, blah. I said, "Well, I don't ever come here because you ju- the people you let in here is outlandish." Like, anybody... You pay $150, you can get on the mats and, and spar with Holly Holm. You know what I mean? That's, that's what it, it's come to down there. And back in the day, it was like private and just us and good pros, everyone there for the same mission, trying to, trying to get better, you know? But-

Joe Rogan 9:23 I've talked to some other people that I, I don't wanna name.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:26 Sure.

Joe Rogan 9:26 But they've said that, that when they go down there, new guys will come in and it's literally a fight.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:30 It is a fight. It's... Uh, there's no, there's no, there's no A, B, C class anymore. It's like, literally these guys come in, they wanna make a name of you. But sometimes when you're towards the end of a, of a fight camp, you don't need those new guy. You don't need that crazy sparring.

Joe Rogan 9:44 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:44 Right?

Joe Rogan 9:44 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:45 You need, you need the guys you trust. And-

Joe Rogan 9:46 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:47 Not some random guy I don't know.

Joe Rogan 9:49 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:49 So, it's just... It's, it's asinine to me, man, what, what they've turned that place into.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Well, it's, it's crazy that that still happens in MMA, because you're never gonna find that in boxing.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:58 No.

Joe Rogan 9:58 In boxing, all sparring is controlled.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 9:59 Controlled.

Joe Rogan 10:00 You bring in the sparring partners. You know who you're working with.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 10:03 So, I mean, we talk loyalty again. To me, with Greg, his name is on that building. It's not... It's Wink. Jackson Wink, right? Jackson fucking Wink. Your name's first even. When it came time to, to pick the decision, and they said, "We wanna go with Perry," why the fuck didn't you stand... Because Greg's still with me. He's like, "Yeah, I'll just come to the ranch and we'll sort this out." And I'm like, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

Joe Rogan 10:30 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 10:30 You tell me I can't come into the Jackson/Wink gym, but you're gonna backdoor and come to my fucking house and we're gonna train to fight me. While Perry's there at the gym, you see everything he does, and then you're gonna come and you're gonna train me? Not to mention, you're holding classes there and he's watch... I mean, you might not be training him to beat me, but there's a lot of people there that have trained with me for fucking years. So, to me, that was the, the point I was saying like, "Man, can we just not have him there for this camp?" I mean, there's a lot of secrets, uh, that I... That, like inner secrets that I have, like, you know, I'm f- I'm fucking scared to death to fight. Like, that's... That's the thing he can... That they can tell him. Like, or they tell him, "You know, go get Cowboy mad. You know, that's... He doesn't fight well when he's pissed off. So fucking piss him off. Poke at him, poke the bear, piss him off. Get him out of his element. Get him to..." You know, shit like this, that-

Joe Rogan 11:15 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:15 Right?

Joe Rogan 11:15 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:16 So, and there's a lot of other things, small, dumb things that I do. And-

Joe Rogan 11:19 Tendencies that they've-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:20 Tendencies.

Joe Rogan 11:20 ... seen over-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:20 Over the year.

Joe Rogan 11:21 ... a decade.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:21 Or 10... Yeah, of... Right?

Joe Rogan 11:23 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:24 Um, to me, that's-

Joe Rogan 11:25 It's very intimate. The, the-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:27 Very.

Joe Rogan 11:27 ... relationship between a coach and a fighter is, is very-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:30 Intimate.

Joe Rogan 11:30 It's very intense. So for someone to violate that in that way... And, you know, I, I don't think there's anything wrong with guys from a camp deciding to fight each other, and you gotta work that out. But for them to tell you that you can't train there-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:42 If it was Carlos Condit, I agree with you.

Joe Rogan 11:43 Right. Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:44 We figure it out.

Joe Rogan 11:45 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:45 "All right, Carlos, you go that way. We- we'll, we'll..."

Joe Rogan 11:47 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:47 "These are your times, your hours."

Joe Rogan 11:48 Respect each other.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:50 Friends.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:52 Right.

Joe Rogan 11:52 Training partners.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 11:52 The new guy who just came in, like I said, I got nothing against Perry. He's, he's looking for... Uh, he wants a home, right? He's look-... He felt like Jackson's is his fit.

Joe Rogan 11:59 He's great. I like that guy a lot.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 12:00 So-

Joe Rogan 12:00 Nothing's on him. I mean, what is he gonna do?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 12:02 Right. And, and I just said, "Hey, Frank was gonna go and train with him wherever."I heard stories he was looking to go to Vegas anyway. I don't, I don't have any idea, man. I was just, I was just like, "Man, can we just not do it for this fight?" And then Winkeljohn called me on the phone, didn't have the fucking balls or the backbone to say it to my fucking face when I was f- right there with him. Called me on the phone like, "Oh, uh, yeah, we're actually gonna, uh, go with Perry. You know, he pays money." And it's, again, it comes back to the money. I'm like, ugh.

Joe Rogan 12:33 So Perry pays him a percentage and you don't, because you-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 12:36 I only pay Greg. I've, for my-

Joe Rogan 12:38 Okay.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 12:38 ... entire career I've ever been there, because I don't like Winkeljohn's style. I don't like his, way he holds his mitts. I don't like the way he trains people.

Joe Rogan 12:44 What's different about what he does?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 12:46 It's the same thing for ev- for you, for me, for John, Sam. They're all the exalt. It's a cookie cutter, everything's exactly the same and it never changes. It's, I don't understand how you could be a coach of the, one of the greatest f- at one time, the greatest gyms on the planet, you know? And then don't ever evolve, don't ever change, and don't run class. And it's, it, to me, it's, he just drove that place into the ground, man. Turned, literally turned it into a puppy mill. It's only about making money. And for you guys who don't know what I'm talking about a puppy mill, when someone has a, a dog and they just fucking breed it and sell the puppies and breed it and sell the puppies, that's-

Joe Rogan 13:20 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 13:20 ... that's what's happening. That's the, the infrastructure of this gym. Now let's talk about training there. Let's talk about coaching, right? Greg's supposed to be the, the, the general, right? I'm just a soldier. How come I have to be now a general and a soldier? That's the mi- that's ri- with the, it's fucking up in my, in my career. I can't, I need someone to tell me what to do, tell me what not to do. And I had to start my own school at the ranch, bring in my own coaches, but then now I'm making all the executive decisions. When we're training, what we're training, what we're doing. And I'm not, I'm no longer just a soldier.

Joe Rogan 13:52 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 13:52 I'm having to fucking run this whole thing. Um, but no, man-

Joe Rogan 13:55 That's a problem for fighters. Inaudible

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 13:57 You need inaudible It's a problem for me, too. Like, I like to... I'm a fucking super alpha male and I like to communicate with my coaches and, and get everything done. And the guys I have are fucking standing by me and I love them to death, but I need someone to be like, "You know what? You crazy fucking bastard."

Joe Rogan 14:09 You're going too hard.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:09 You're going too hard.

Joe Rogan 14:10 You need to taper off.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:10 Just taper off. Just pump the brake. Or let's pick it up.

Joe Rogan 14:13 Right, right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:14 Y- The, the, the fucking fun fuck off part of your life is taking-

Joe Rogan 14:17 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:17 ... over into your training. Can we step it up a little bit?

Joe Rogan 14:19 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:19 I need that. I need, I need fucking direction. I need today we're working on this. Not just me going in there saying, "Ah, let's fucking wrestle today."

Joe Rogan 14:28 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:28 You know what I'm saying? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:29 Right, right, right, right. Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:30 So, um-

Joe Rogan 14:31 You know what to do, but it's also nice for someone else who knows what to do who's completely objective-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:37 Espe-

Joe Rogan 14:37 ... to stand on the outside.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:38 Because there's been s- I've, I'm in this so long, there's-

Joe Rogan 14:40 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:40 Like, I could literally, Joe, never spar from now till the Perry fight and probably not even do one jujitsu roll and I would be okay to fight, like mentally.

Joe Rogan 14:49 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:50 But that's probably not a very smart idea, right?

Joe Rogan 14:52 Right, right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:52 Like, it's not-

Joe Rogan 14:53 It's not you at your optimum.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 14:54 Exactly. Um, so it's just, it's fucking asinine to me. And, and the coaches down there, so not only can somebody just ring the doorbell and show up and train, pay the money, it's, well, you can pay the $25 to drop in or you pay the 150 a month, come to any class you want. But if you're a coach, you can just coach the class. S- it's, that, that, it's that asinine to you. I see a new striking coach, a new wrestling coach, or a new jujitsu guy in there twice a week probably.

Joe Rogan 15:20 And they're coaching the class.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 15:21 The, our wrest- main wrestling coach of Jackson-Wink, the greatest school in the fucking world, is a reception to a chiropractic upstairs. He's greatest credentials was he was a junior assistant coach at a college, don't know the college name, who got fired for selling the kids steroids. That's our wrestling coach at one of the greatest schools in the world.

Joe Rogan 15:44 Is he a good coach?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 15:45 No, he's terrible. He's fucking godawful terrible. He watches videos on YouTube and tries to teach people things that don't even fucking work. It's, it's, it's asinine. Which is another reason why I had to hire my own coach and bring him in. (laughs) You know? It's like, it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, what?" And now they don't even drill. They just go live and they wanna know why people get hurt every day. It's like, you can't just go in there and say, "Okay, and we're wrestling. Go."

Joe Rogan 16:07 So do you think that people just get burnt out on doing things the right way and they just, they just figure, "Look, I'm just gonna do this the way that makes the most money"?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 16:15 Well, I think... Man, I wish I had, I had the answer for that. I do, because I'm not in that position to, I'm not running a gym and that's, I've never done that because I don't wanna, me showing up to class every single day would wear me the fuck out.

Joe Rogan 16:27 Yeah. It wears everybody out.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 16:28 It's got to.

Joe Rogan 16:29 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 16:29 But you should have an infrastructure set in place that takes you, especially if you're the greatest at one time, right? If your winning percentages are in the 80s and 90s and now they're in the 20s. Like I, I don't, I have no clue what our, what our rating record of the gym is, but it's, it's not (laughs) , it's nothing like it used to be, right?

Joe Rogan 16:47 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 16:47 And it's fucking, it's asinine to me, man.

Joe Rogan 16:51 So the way you were doing is, uh, you have the BMF Ranch.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 16:54 Correct.

Joe Rogan 16:54 You have everything set up. You bring in all your sparring partners and you would be doing all your training out there. And how would Greg interact with that?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:00 He would, he would, he, we'd either show up down at Jackson's and spar, 'cause they still have got, there's still bodies down there, right?

Joe Rogan 17:04 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:04 There's still guys. We'd show up down at his bar, we'd bring all the guys down. Or Greg would come up, you know, three or four times a week to the ranch. And we'd just-

Joe Rogan 17:10 And how far is your ranch from-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:11 50 miles about.

Joe Rogan 17:13 Okay.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:13 Yeah, a good hour, solid hour drive (laughs) into the vast no man's of New Mexico.

Joe Rogan 17:18 New Mexico. Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:19 (laughs) Do you like living out there? I do. I love it. I fucking love it. So I sold my house. I moved here. I fucking planted roots. Now, I could never, ever sell my place. I'm stuck in New Mexico. I'm moving back to Colorado, I'm gonna buy-

Joe Rogan 17:33 Why could you never sell it?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:34 Because I, I'd have to sell it to like a crazy cult leader. So if anybody out there listening wants to operate a cult, I have the-

Joe Rogan 17:39 (laughs) Are you talking to one right now?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:40 I have the, I have the perfect house.

Joe Rogan 17:42 Talk to me about what kind of acreage are you talking about?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:44 Yeah. Well, I got 40 acres.

Joe Rogan 17:46 What do we got here?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:46 40 acres. Plenty of rooms, buildings.

Joe Rogan 17:48 Go ahead, what kind of animals are in your vicinity?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:50 Um, oh, well.

Joe Rogan 17:51 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:52 Yeah. You got-

Joe Rogan 17:52 This might be where we start.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 17:54 There's, there's, about an hour drive you can run into some elk. Oh. We have, uh, we got antelope, um, everywhere. Which is crazy thing about antelope, you know they don't jump fences.

Joe Rogan 18:03 Yeah, they won't jump fences.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:04 It's crazy, right? You can just literally corner them into a, into a, into a f- you know-

Joe Rogan 18:07 They occasionally jump a fence. They've been known to jump a fence occasionally, but it's very, very rare.You know, they evolved, um, before the Ice Age, they evolved to get away from cheetahs. ...

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:18 How are you-

Joe Rogan 18:18 Apparently.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:18 ... so smart? That's what I wanna know.

Joe Rogan 18:20 I'm not smart. I just remember things.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:21 Dude is fucking insane.

Joe Rogan 18:23 There was a, uh, a mass extinction of, uh, giant land mammals. It was somewhere around 12,000 years ago in North America and before then, there was cheetahs. There was actual North American cheetahs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:34 There was a North American lion that's bigger than the African lion. How about that shit? Giant-ass fucking lion. And that's where these fucking things evolved.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:42 Did you want another chew?

Joe Rogan 18:43 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:43 This- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:44 I'm gonna try that shit.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:45 I swallowed it last time. (laughs) That's the only ... That's the main thing, whenever I meet people for autographs, they're like, "Dude, I can't believe you got Rogan to fucking take a chew."

Joe Rogan 18:52 I didn't just take it, I swallowed it. I didn't know what I was doing.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:55 Like a man.

Joe Rogan 18:57 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 18:57 All right, round two. Here we go.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Round two.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:03 (laughs) Mm. What kind is this?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:05 So good. It's, uh, Wintergreen Copenhagen.

Joe Rogan 19:08 It's under your chin, right?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:09 Under your lip.

Joe Rogan 19:10 (laughs) Under ... It's under your chin.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:11 You can put it under your chin if you want. Yeah, take just a little one.

Joe Rogan 19:16 Too late.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:17 Too late.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Took a giant one.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:19 Took a big old upper lipper.

Narrator 19:22 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:23 So, there's that. Um, there's turkeys out there.

Joe Rogan 19:28 Turkey's great.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:28 Duck. I love turkey. I'm a bird hunting fanatic, man.

Joe Rogan 19:31 Yeah?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:31 I love ... Oh, man, I love birds.

Joe Rogan 19:33 How many acres you got out there?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:34 40 acres.

Joe Rogan 19:35 Oh, wow, that's nice.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:36 40 acres.

Joe Rogan 19:36 You got a mule too? 40 acres and a mule, remember?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:40 (laughs) Um, but birds, I- I'm- I'm like a bird junkie.

Joe Rogan 19:43 How'd you find that spot?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 19:45 Um, so when I moved out there and after I was in, um, the gym for, like, a year and a half with Leonard, I was like, "Bro, you're, like, winning a bunch of UFC fights now. I'm in the WC. Um, we're starting to get a little bit of money. Let's get a house together, right? Let's, let's find a house." So, I started looking kind of in the remote areas around where I knew I could commute in, but I wanted somewhere I could ride my dirt bike, shoot guns, just be cowboy. And, um, we found that place and I called my grandpa and I said, "Hey, I think I found a house." And he said, "I'll be right there." And he ... him and my grandma drove. And he walked up to the lady and he handed her an envelope full of cash and said, "Well, take it."

Joe Rogan 20:30 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 20:31 And (laughs) just like that.

Joe Rogan 20:33 Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 20:34 Yeah. It was probably 60 or 70,000 less than they were asking, but he had real cash, real cash and said, "Well, take it."

Joe Rogan 20:43 Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 20:43 "My grandson wants it and, um, well take it."

Joe Rogan 20:48 Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 20:48 And I was like, "Oh, I was just showing ... like, okay. Uh, thanks, Grandpa."

Joe Rogan 20:55 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 20:55 "Like, right? Like, uh, w- you just bought me a house?" And, um, he, like, believed in me. No matter what I did. I used to be one ... a magician. I used to, like, love m- magic, right? So, he'd always buy me magic shit and sit there and watch me do it and he was such a fucking cool dude, man.

Joe Rogan 21:09 You used to do magic?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 21:11 Did you ever do shows?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:12 No, no. N- I mean, I was, like, 12, 13. I would do shows to my grandma and grandpa and my friends and I still have, like, a toolbox full of magic stuff. I should bust it out and bring it out here one time. There's some cool, cool little things.

Joe Rogan 21:23 You should.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:23 Are you good at it?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:25 Um, not, like, good, like, I ... you and me, like, "Whoa! That was blue." But there's some- some of the slight of hand stuff is pretty fun and, like, the coin- coin magic is good and-

Joe Rogan 21:35 How do you keep this shit from going in your mouth?

Narrator 21:37 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:37 You just ...

Joe Rogan 21:38 'Cause it doesn't for me. It doesn't seem wanna stay put.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:40 Well, you keep drinking on top of it. You gotta, like, bury it with your tongue-

Joe Rogan 21:43 All right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:43 ... and then drink over it.

Joe Rogan 21:44 (laughs) I'm trying.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 21:48 I fucking love it. So yeah, um, greatest dude, man. Taught me a lot. Taught me a lot about loyalty and respect, man. And- and I called my grandma on my way here today and I said, "I'm gonna fucking set fire to this bridge to Jackson's," and she wrote me back and said, "Well, you need to, like ... Are you attacking them logically or are you out of anger? Which- which direction are we going here?"

Joe Rogan 22:16 Powerful, Grandma.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:18 Right?

Joe Rogan 22:18 On the ball.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:19 Which direction are we going?

Joe Rogan 22:22 Good way of ending.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:22 And, uh, she said-

Joe Rogan 22:25 I should probably start spitting soon, huh?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:27 (laughs) Yeah, you gotta ... you definitely gotta spit.

Joe Rogan 22:29 I didn't spit all last time.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:29 She said, "Make sure, you know, always in life, don't ever paint yourself into a corner." Like, these are major lessons she always gave me. "Don't burn bridges you can't cross."

Joe Rogan 22:37 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:39 But she told me today, fucking let it go. Let them have it. They- they- they wanna step across the line, they drew the line in the sand. Let them wanna burn their own ... Make them feel so bad they wanna burn their own fucking gym to the ground, you know?

Joe Rogan 22:51 Mm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 22:52 It's like, to me, having the moment for Greg to say, "You know what, Wink? My name's on this fucking gym. Cowboy's been with me from the start." There's been times two or three camps ago where I've trained with Greg maybe one or two times, and I still write him a check. I still write him a check, and I pay him because he got me into this motherfucker and loyalty to me is the- the top- top of the line thing, right?

Joe Rogan 23:17 It's top of the line to me too. That's why you're here.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:19 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:20 And that's why they're not.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:22 And, you know, and it's unfortunate because I like Greg a lot and I- and I respect-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:26 I love Greg.

Joe Rogan 23:26 I don't know much about Winkeljohn other than his work.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 23:28 What he's done with Holly and a lot of other people. And, uh, I was real torn up about this. That's why I contacted you.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:34 Sure, sure.

Joe Rogan 23:35 You know, when y- when you told me that they were gonna-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:37 This is, like, a crazy scenario all around for everybody across the board. Like, wait, what are you ... Like, what? What the fuck you mean? What's happening here?

Joe Rogan 23:44 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:45 You know?

Joe Rogan 23:45 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:46 And it's- it's- it's crazy. It's wild. I appreciate you sticking by my side. Um-

Joe Rogan 23:52 Well, it was a- it was a situation where I didn't know what to do.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:55 You know? I was like, I- I can't just ignore it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 23:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:00 I would have to bring it up when they were here and then I wouldn't get a full representation of it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:04 Sure. I mean, uh, do you feel like you're getting a full rep- (laughs) There you go. (laughs) I love it.

Joe Rogan 24:11 I think I gotta figure out how to do this right. It's a skill you learn, how to tuck in your ...

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:16 Yeah.

Narrator 24:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:16 It's all over the place. It's in my mouth. Feel that.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:18 Mine's just in a little ball right here. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 24:21 Mine is not.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:23 Um-

Joe Rogan 24:23 Mine's not controlled. I'm gonna wind up swallowing this again.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:25 So, if your name's on the, on the thing, like ... right? There you go. Put it, spit it out.

Joe Rogan 24:31 (spits) I just don't have any control over it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:32 Now, now you gotta open another beer and rinse it. You gotta give it a rinse.

Joe Rogan 24:36 A wrench?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:36 Yeah.

Narrator 24:38 It says rinse it.

Joe Rogan 24:38 Oh, rinse. I thought you said wrench it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:40 Yeah. Open the beer, rinse it out, spit it out. That way, you don't get it any more swallowed. That way, you're not sick again.

Joe Rogan 24:44 I wasn't sick last time. I was fine.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:46 Okay. Good, good.

Joe Rogan 24:46 It was weird, I swallowed the whole thing.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:49 Um, fuck yeah. I missed you, man. I missed you.

Joe Rogan 24:55 I missed you too, bro.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:56 It's be- it's been a while.

Joe Rogan 24:57 Yeah, it has been a while.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:57 So much has happened. I'm glad we got that kinda out of the way.

Joe Rogan 24:59 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 24:59 I'm sure I'll circle back when I drink a little bit more and-

Joe Rogan 25:01 Yeah, I'm sure so too. It's, um, it's unfortunate. And, and I know what it must be like to try to keep the lights on in a big gym. And now they have dorms, it's huge. A giant ass place, huge overhead, I'm sure. All these people coming in and coming out. And then, you know how fighters are. Not you, but some fighters, they don't give a fuck about loyalty. They just care about themselves, they're on their path. It's a, it's a-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:21 ... very solitary, singular sport.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:22 And selfish. A very selfish sport.

Joe Rogan 25:24 Well, you kinda have to be, right?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:25 Yeah. And I think that's-

Joe Rogan 25:27 (sniffs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:27 ... kinda where the team got ... "Cowboy's really selfish, he has his own gym now." Well, I had to.

Joe Rogan 25:32 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:32 I fucking had to, man. For the better of my family and me. I had to keep evolving. I couldn't spiral down this drain with you guys.

Joe Rogan 25:41 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:41 You know? And now Michelle Waterson just built a new gym. She's doing the same thing in her backyard. Love her to death, you know?

Joe Rogan 25:46 She's doing that too?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:47 Doing it too. Her and her husband built a badass little gym all Onnit.

Joe Rogan 25:50 For the wife, what? She just had a baby.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:50 All sponsored by Onnit, fucking-

Joe Rogan 25:52 Really?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:52 Yeah, just bitching, man. It's cool.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Powerline.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:54 Yeah, good for her. Go yeah, Michelle, whoop, whoop.

Joe Rogan 25:56 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 25:56 Um, you know? But if you look at the track record since Wink has taken over the gym, everyone's left. I mean, it's t- it's like ... You don't see a pattern here, Wink? Like, maybe you should change something up, or just not allow it?

Joe Rogan 26:09 Well, he's been fighting for a long time.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 26:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 26:12 And then training for a long time. I mean, he was a badass kickboxer before he ever got into training.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 26:18 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:18 And, you know, I think one of the things that happens with people, they just get ... This whole s- selfishness of the sport, it wears people down to a certain extent. There's comradery, but there's also selfishness. And they're all constantly going against each other.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 26:31 Sure.

Joe Rogan 26:32 And, you know, having a gym like that, the expenses, the overhead. And then, you know, dealing with people that are just grabbing and grabbing and grabbing. It just- it's gotta get overwhelming. And then you see a guy like Mike Perry, who, you know, is a potential big star. He's a colorful kid, he's a knockout artist, he, he fucking loves to fight. If I was a coach, I'd be like-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 26:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:52 "This is the kinda guy I want in my gym." He's a fucking animal, you know? It's a, it's a great asset.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 26:58 And I'm, I'm super excited to fight him.

Joe Rogan 27:00 I know you are.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:00 Because this is one of those fights where we're gonna go in the middle of the ring, and we're gonna, we're gonna fucking fight.

Joe Rogan 27:06 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:06 The old school fucking-

Joe Rogan 27:08 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:08 ... let's fight.

Joe Rogan 27:09 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:09 So, um, fucking, I'm pumped on it. I love the kid. You know, he's cool, he's crazy. Him and I would get along just great. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:17 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:17 We do. So, uh, I got nothing, like I said, nothing bad. Him or Frank. Frank is coach who ... Well, that's ... Perry's working with, with Frank, the ... an- another striking coach. Who-

Joe Rogan 27:26 Frank Lester.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:27 ... Lester, who is holding, holding the, the infrastructure of the gym together almost single-handedly, you know? There's a coup- couple wrestling guys and, um-

Joe Rogan 27:37 Is Brandon Gibson still there?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:38 Yeah. Brandon's c- Brandon w- has a full time job, just got promoted again, um, in his government job. He has like a real government job.

Joe Rogan 27:45 He has a job job?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:46 Job ... On real-

Joe Rogan 27:46 On top of being a big time trainer?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:47 Super job. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:49 How the fuck's he do that?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:51 Man, I have no idea. He has like a nine to, nine to six job. (laughs) Maybe, maybe seven to six job.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Really?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 27:58 Yeah, he's every morning up early, take care of his family. He's a great dude, I got nothing bad ... Nothing but love for Brandon Gibson, man. Nothing but ... Him and I just separated only because I need to ... I just want a different angle of striking. It wasn't ... It was me ... It had nothing to do with, "He's a bad coach. I lost my fight, I'm firing you." It's just fucking ... Just trying something new.

Joe Rogan 28:18 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:19 Just, just trying something new, that's all. Uh, but yes, Gibson's

Joe Rogan 28:22 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:22 But Gibson kinda just works, you know, with John Dotson, with Condit. Kinda ... I mean, he doesn't have the time to go in there and just hold that gym together.

Joe Rogan 28:30 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:30 So, he, um ... Like I said, he has a real job. And he just got another promotion, so he's like the top of the ... He started off as a lifeguard, worked his way all the way up through the city. Now he's damn near governor. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:41 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:42 I think that's next. Governor is next for Gibson.

Joe Rogan 28:44 It's not hard. I had Gary Johnson in here, I think I could be governor in New Mexico.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:49 No, no offense, Gary.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:50 Well, let's legalize pot and, uh, mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 28:52 Is it not legal there?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:54 It's, it's recreational. Or I mean it's, um, medical-

Joe Rogan 28:56 You gotta have AIDS.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:58 Yes. Is it one of those places?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 28:59 It's one of those places. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:59 You have to have AIDS. There's just a lot of places where you gotta have AIDS. Like that, that's so ... That's how it used to be in a lot of places. But like Vegas used to be like that, and now Vegas is l- loosey goose, open wide. Vegas got full on dispensaries.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:12 Man. Fucking Vegas, man. Vegas is definitely a two-night town, man. It's-

Joe Rogan 29:16 Yeah, it's rough on the liver.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:18 It's rough on everything.

Joe Rogan 29:19 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:19 Just, it just takes you-

Joe Rogan 29:20 The soul.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:20 It takes you the fuck in, man.

Joe Rogan 29:22 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:22 I was just there last night. I was out there for a big Monster conference, and it's just like ... You, you sit in your room and you're like, "Well, I could just go down and, uh ... gamble, I guess." And then you start gambling. Have you ever played Baccarat?

Joe Rogan 29:34 I don't play shit.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:35 I have never either, and I decided ... We, we tried Baccarat. Like 007. I was like, "We'll be like 007, we'll go in there." And I played with, with one of the higher ups in Monster, and he took us down there and we played this game. And, uh ... Fuck, we won a shitload of money. A shitload of money. There was like five-

Joe Rogan 29:52 That's a trick.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:53 You want some of this?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:53 Yeah, I'll take some of that. I don't really smoke much pot, but I'll do it just 'cause I'm with you.

Joe Rogan 29:57 Be careful with that.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 29:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:58 That stuff is ... Th- they grew that on the moon. I saw a video of him breakdancing the other night.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:02 You breakdance?

Joe Rogan 30:03 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:03 I do. I used to. I used to really breakdance.

Joe Rogan 30:05 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:06 So, I'm at the Monster conference ...

Joe Rogan 30:07 Did we lose the glass tip?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:08 I'm at the Monster conference and, um ... Monster now has a breakdancing team.

Joe Rogan 30:12 The what? (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:13 Yes.

Joe Rogan 30:14 Monster got me some badass bags, man.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:16 Shout out to Hans.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:17 Yeah, Hans, yeah, Hans's a good dude, man.

Joe Rogan 30:18 (coughs) He's a great dude.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:18 Yeah, he uh, he takes care of ... He takes care of a lot of people. Uh, uh again, the infrastructure of Monster-... great, right?

Joe Rogan 30:24 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:24 Great infrastructure for Monster.

Joe Rogan 30:25 Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:26 So the ambassador, Hans, takes care of it, takes care of his people.

Joe Rogan 30:29 Loyalty, family, super friendly.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:30 Exactly, right?

Joe Rogan 30:31 Great guy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:31 So, uh, I seen the Monster- I was gonna say, I seen the Monster bags laying back there fucking (swooshing noise)

Joe Rogan 30:35 I just got them.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:36 Um...

Joe Rogan 30:38 Agustin Bolanos, it was his idea.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:39 So-

Joe Rogan 30:40 Have a little bit more of that or you're gonna get crazy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:41 Okay. Gonna start talking about space soon. (glass clinking) Doing drugs with Joe.

Joe Rogan 30:47 It's not drugs, it's nature. We're doing nature, bro.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:50 You're right. All right, I'm with you. Um, so the breakdancers, they start breakdancing and then halfway through their show, they stop it.

Joe Rogan 30:57 Look at this. (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 30:59 Oh, yeah. So they- they set up a battle between t- me and this other guy, right? And we just have to go out here and we have to breakdance. I used to breakdance back in- years ago.

Joe Rogan 31:08 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:09 But on a slippery floor with cowboy boots and I didn't properly stretch. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:13 Yeah, that's not good.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:14 Oh, it was so fun, man. I, uh, I-

Joe Rogan 31:16 Look at you. (laughs) Cowboy boots.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:19 Yeah, cowboy boots, Monster shirt, getting down, doing a little breakdancing. It was so fun, man.

Joe Rogan 31:24 Look at you. (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:28 Dude, we have a bunch of guys from 10th Planet that started out as breakdancing. Uh, Geo Martinez-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:34 Dude, just your core strength, everything about it.

Joe Rogan 31:35 ... and Richie Martinez and Bad Mother- Oh, yeah, man. You can do a-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:37 It's insane.

Joe Rogan 31:37 ... one-handed push-up with your foot, or a one-handed handstand with your feet up in the air and you twist them around.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:41 Dude.

Joe Rogan 31:42 That's some crazy control over your body.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:44 It- it was-

Joe Rogan 31:44 It's like yoga on steroids.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:46 It's- it- it's so hard. It's so hard. It's- it's even harder to do after 12 years of never even doing it again. And then-

Joe Rogan 31:54 I'm sure.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:54 And like, "And go!"

Joe Rogan 31:56 (laughs) With cowboy boots on.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 31:58 Like, "Oh, here we go."

Joe Rogan 31:59 Yeah. Yeah, we did.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:00 We had a bunch of these guys come in and, uh, Eddie called me up. He goes, "Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo." You know how Eddie gets crazy. He goes, "Listen, man, breakdancing, breakdancing, breakdancing is the thing. It's the thing. These guys are so fucking strong, I can't even control them. Breakdancers, man, these guys are like 140 pounds and they're like- it's like j- holding onto a live wire."

Joe Rogan 32:17 I- yeah, they're s- they're so strong.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:20 What is that guy's name? BBoy Pocket Kim, is that what his name is? What is his name? I- I put him on my Instagram way back in the day. This is this Korean kid that is... It doesn't even seem like a human can do what he does.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:32 Th- that's how I felt yesterday when those guys were dancing. I was like, "How are you doing..."

Joe Rogan 32:35 He spins all on one hand. He's on one hand, hopping up and down in the air and spinning around, and you're like, "How... Are you doing that?"

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:41 You find it?

Joe Rogan 32:42 Pocket Kim. Pocket Kim. Yeah, watch this motherfucker. This guy is such a beast, it's crazy to watch. There's a bunch of these guys now. They're k- there's- there's this Stance Elements.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:51 And with the red shoes?

Joe Rogan 32:53 And there's this one guy... Yeah, look at this motherfucker. Look at this motherfucker. I mean, what the fuck is he doing?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 32:58 It's called air tracks.

Joe Rogan 32:59 That is crazy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:00 It's- it's called air tracks, what he's laying right there, that's-

Joe Rogan 33:01 But that is crazy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:02 Yeah, it's like flaring in the air. That- that is damn near impossible to do.

Joe Rogan 33:08 That guy is a freak.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:09 Yeah, he's the freak of all freaks.

Narrator 33:12 (cheering)

Joe Rogan 33:12 It- it's crazy what he can do. And there's a few of those guys. If you go to that Stance Elements. Click on that Stance Elements, Jamie. The- these guys are... There's... I didn't know about this until, uh, Tim Ferriss put it on his Instagram. He put Pocket Kim on, and then I- I went and watched these guys. These guys are doing just insane physical acrobatics along with music.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:34 But I feel like the kids now are doing insane everything.

Joe Rogan 33:37 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:37 Snowboarding, dirt biking.

Joe Rogan 33:39 Jujitsu, e- everything.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:40 Everything is- is-

Joe Rogan 33:41 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:42 ... on a whole 'nother playing field, right? Yeah. They're-

Joe Rogan 33:44 And MMA fighters, these young guys that are coming in.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:46 ... are- are not just w- solely one- one discipline, right?

Joe Rogan 33:50 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 33:50 They have everything. They're MMA fighters.

Joe Rogan 33:52 You- you see these new guys. Like, Zabit is one of my favorite guys to watch. Zabit Magomedsharipov. Say that five times fast.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:00 He's su... He- he- it's like these new high-level guys are coming in and you- you're looking at them and you're like, "Oh, okay, we just hit the new evolution." There's a new evolution going on with these young guys coming up. It's fascinating. I mean, but- a- that's to be expected, right? With everything, I guess. Especially with social media, you get to see these guys, like on Instagram, you get to see the moves that that guy's doing. And all these other breakdancers get to see it on... They would have to see it live.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:23 Right.

Joe Rogan 34:24 Now they're seeing it in Korea, they're seeing it in Japan. They don't even have to travel and they're seeing these moves and they're trying to pick it up.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:28 And you slow it down, rewatch it, and learn and learn and learn, right?

Joe Rogan 34:32 Yeah. It's a crazy time.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:33 Crazy (laughs) t- and not only- not only do we get to watch, but we also get the shit-ass guy in his basement that gets to talk shit about that.

Joe Rogan 34:40 Yeah, there's a little bit of that.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:41 A lot- there's a lot of it in that video.

Joe Rogan 34:42 You can't pay attention to that, cowboy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:44 I- I- it- it burns my soul.

Joe Rogan 34:46 Yeah, but you're too good to pay attention to that.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:47 I- I hate... I wish I was too good to say that, but I- I get... It's just like if I was coming here and someone out in the parking lot said something to me and I'd say, "What the fuck?"

Joe Rogan 34:54 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 34:55 "What the fuck are you talking to like that?" You know? Like, we'd have... It'd be a moment there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:00 Oh, yeah. For sure.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:01 So that's how I still feel today. But, um...

Joe Rogan 35:03 Well, that's why you're Cowboy.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:04 Yeah, true.

Joe Rogan 35:04 That's why you're who you are.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:06 True.

Joe Rogan 35:06 You know what'll help you? A little bit of this.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 35:08 A little of the new mood.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:09 New mood. The- the super new mood.

Joe Rogan 35:10 Get you some of the new mood.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:10 The super new mood. The super new mood.

Joe Rogan 35:12 (laughs) Get you some of the real new mood.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:13 That's it. That's a gift from me to you.

Joe Rogan 35:15 Thanks, man. Appreciate it, brother.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:15 I'm- I'm glad you enjoyed that. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:17 Yeah, man.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:17 Um, your- your buddy Paul.

Joe Rogan 35:19 Paul Stamets?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:20 Paul Stamets in light... Fuck.

Joe Rogan 35:22 Woo!

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:22 Okay, let's- let's back this up. Let's back- let's take-

Joe Rogan 35:24 Backs it all up.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:24 Let's take this train back just a-

Joe Rogan 35:27 Beep. Beep.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:27 Yeah, just a little bit. Okay.

Joe Rogan 35:28 Beep.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:28 So you speaking about DMT... I'm... Okay, let- let me- let's back it up one more.

Joe Rogan 35:34 One more. Beep.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:35 I've never done any drugs in my entire life, ever.

Joe Rogan 35:37 But you did a lot of drugs in here already. You did nicotine, you did alcohol.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:39 And we're back- we're backed up. Remember? We're backed up.

Joe Rogan 35:42 Scooch.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:43 I've never done any drug ever. Never ever.

Joe Rogan 35:45 What year was this?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:47 Two years ago.

Joe Rogan 35:48 Oh, you did booze.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:49 Well, I don't... That's- that's legal.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Oh, legal. The law.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:52 Legal drugs. Oh, duh.

Joe Rogan 35:54 Oh, it's under the law. Uh...

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:56 Um...

Joe Rogan 35:57 You're a product of drugs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 35:58 I am a product of drugs. Very pharmaceutical drugs, right?

Joe Rogan 36:01 Which is not a bad drug. Budweiser's a fantastic drug. It's made for great jokes, fun times.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:04 Right? How many fucking good times-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:06 Hey!

Joe Rogan 36:06 ... have people had because of Budweiser?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:07 God bless you, Budweiser. Salud. Sounds good, right? It's whatever- it's whatever.

Joe Rogan 36:13 It's a good drug. Well regulated. You know, you know what one bottle does. That's what I like. There's no surprises.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:17 Makes you want two.

Joe Rogan 36:18 Yeah, but-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:18 You know what one bottle does? Makes you want two.

Joe Rogan 36:20 Right, but that's- that's on you, man. One bottle. You gotta have some goddamn self-control. One bottle... You know what a bottle of Budweiser does. It's really clear.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:29 True.

Joe Rogan 36:30 It's like you eat a fucking pot brownie, who it could be anything, you know? You could be... Y- who knows what the fuck you're getting. They got that limit in Utah, everything is 3.2%. Poor people in Utah. You know they're rebranding?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:41 They should make more.

Joe Rogan 36:41 Did you know the Mor- Mormons are rebranding? I found out this last night. Really? They don't call them Mormons anymore. Eric Griffin was telling me, calling a Mormon a Mormon is like calling a small person a midget. Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:50 Yep.

Joe Rogan 36:51 What do you call them? Uh, Latter-day Saints. Oh, wow. Shout out to the Latter-day Saints. Magic underwear.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 36:56 Magic underwear. Goddamn it. So no drugs.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Okay? No drugs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:02 Talk, you hear you talking about DMT, everyone's on this DMT ride. Get sponsored by this little company called Onnit, which is now a fucking huge company, which I love. By the way, the gut health. (clicks tongue)

Joe Rogan 37:14 It's been all... Yeah, probiotics, man.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:15 That's my-

Joe Rogan 37:15 It's everything.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:16 ... That's my favorite. Yeah. Good.

Joe Rogan 37:17 Do you eat kimchi or anything like that? You ever eat, uh-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:19 No.

Joe Rogan 37:19 You should. You should. Get, get involved, get involved with some probiotics. You know, um, uh, kefir is really good. Kimchi is really good.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:27 Now your people are gonna be like, "Oh, you're talking about your diet again."

Joe Rogan 37:29 No, man. It's good, dude. It's good.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:31 People need to know. Like, you gotta take care of your internal. You know?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:34 I'm with you.

Joe Rogan 37:34 It's, you, you don't see that gut health, man, but it affects your depression, your mood, the way your brain works, the way your immune system functions. Gut health is everything. Those little Onnit packets are key, man.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:44 I don't, I don't travel without those bitches.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:46 I don't, I don't go a day without them.

Joe Rogan 37:47 I ate all my- I don't either.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:48 Their new pack... They got new packets for them now. They're not in the same old box.

Joe Rogan 37:51 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:51 More high tech, cool, sweet looking box now.

Joe Rogan 37:53 Well, they exist on the substrate that's in those capsules. That's one of the way, the ways you don't have to refrigerate it. It's so good for travel.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 37:58 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:59 'Cause i- it's just... I think you should have a variety of probiotics, but I think it's one of the most critical things that people don't think about. Anyway.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:06 Anyway.

Joe Rogan 38:07 So drugs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:07 Drugs?

Joe Rogan 38:08 Drugs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:09 Aubrey said, "Hey, why don't you come out? We got a little group of people doing some DMT."

Joe Rogan 38:15 Did he do the whole ceremony?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:17 Music, chants, everything.

Joe Rogan 38:19 The ika rose?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:20 Everyth- uh, the whole, the whole thing. We smoked tobacco out by the fire, talked about what we were gonna-

Joe Rogan 38:25 Oh. I wanna play some of that ika rose. (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:26 Talk, talk about, talk about what direction we wanted this to go, you know? What, what, what we wanted the journey to consist of. Uh, I call my best friends up, take them with me, and we go out there and we fucking... We do this. We sit in this room and we go through the chants and the ceremony. And I'm scared to death because I've never done anything, right?

Joe Rogan 38:49 You should be scared.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 38:50 Scared. Never done any... I wish... That's it. Waking, waking up the spirits. (laughs) You just have that? That's your... It's on the-

Joe Rogan 39:05 Oh, dude. This is gonna take... This is gonna make me trip. If I listen to this, if I eat a pot brownie, listen to this, and get in the tank, I'll start tripping.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:13 All right.

Joe Rogan 39:16 'Cause when you do DMT and you're... And you hear this, they dance for you.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 39:21 The whole... The, the experience. You realize what this is? This is like a technology to maximize DMT.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:27 And while, while you're on this DMT, this is playing in the background.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:33 On a, on a drum and chants, and yeah, that's ex- That's what's going on. I wasn't in a super spooky night camera room like this, but it was... You know, it was... Aubrey has a nice-

Joe Rogan 39:46 He knows what the fuck he's doing.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:47 He knew what the fuck he was doing.

Joe Rogan 39:48 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:49 You know that-

Joe Rogan 39:50 He's doing it the real way. Like, he might be a beautiful man-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 39:52 You feel, you feel really spiritual in the room.

Joe Rogan 39:55 Yeah. He might be a beautiful man with a beautiful body and looks like he's running a sex cult, but what he really is doing is doing it the right way.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:02 Did you say it looks like or he is...

Joe Rogan 40:03 Like, legitimately-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:04 Legitimately doing it the right way.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:08 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:08 I could maybe sell the ranch to Aubrey and the sex cult.

Joe Rogan 40:11 Well, listen. Aubrey and I are partners.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:14 We'll talk after this podcast is over. I just need to know what kind of zoning you have and whether or not you have water on the property.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:19 There we go. I do have water.

Joe Rogan 40:21 You got a well?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:22 I have a well. Two wells, actually.

Joe Rogan 40:26 So what happened?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:27 All right. So this music is playing. They load the pipe, which to me loo- looked like pink cocaine, right? Like dust.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:33 Pink dust. And they load it in this pipe and he says, "Just light it, and you wanna breathe fresh air out of the corner of your mouth," like ... As you're taking this harsh smoke in.

Joe Rogan 40:44 Smells like burning plastic.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 40:45 Oh, it gets... It's, it's harsh. And he says, "Just hit it until you can't anymore." I'm like, "What the fuck does that mean? I feel like I can hit this forever." So I hit it and I hit it, and then all of a sudden, I say, "Oh, you hit it until you can't anymore," and he starts getting wavy. And then I just... The pipe falls out of my mouth and I fall back. The entire world comes, like, zooming into me, like, into, like, whoom, pitch black, and I shoot through this fucking kaleidoscope of colors. Maybe 10 seconds and blow out the top like Superman, out of, out of the top of this tube of color into pitch total black darkness. And I'm looking at myself from, like, the third person. And I'm just hovering in midair, and everywhere that I've ever been injured or hurt is glowing bright, like, super white, like the whitest white fire I've ever seen. Like, my head's on fire. My arms and fists are... I feel like something out of a fucking movie. I'm just suspended in air, burning. And I keep, like, asking myself questions. And then, and then I don't know if it's me, but I answer back to myself, right? And I'm bugging the fuck out because you can still hear this music going. I can hear the people giggling next to me. I can hear the next guy lighting the lighter, and he's now going. And meanwhile, I'm just burning, and I'm talking to myself about whatever question I answered, right? And then all of a sudden, just as fast as I came in, I kind of eyes woke and I woke up. And I still see the rest of the guys in the room because they, like, systematically go around the room in an order. They're in, they're in there, and she hits. Now the pipe comes around again, and now it's my turn again. Now I'm really excited. I almost wish halfway through the trip you could fucking hit it again and go back in.So, I hit it and this time I'm thinking, "Yeah, I- I wanna go back to that again. I wanna go back to where I just was." So, I fucking hit the pipe, hit the pipe, hit the pipe. Now, I hit the pipe so goddamn hard and I hold my breath, I fall over to the side. I fido- fall to my left side and I'm tipped over. Well, I sit back up because you're still there, right? You're not like in another dimension, you're not out of your body experience. So, I sit back up, but the entire trip now is sideways. And I'm looking at m- this trip. I'm looking at crazy, black rainbows. And I can't explain what a fucking black rainbow looks like, but they're waving with sparkles and black into a keyhole that's turned sideways, and through the keyhole are crazy light, shapes, and darts. And every time I almost get to this keyhole, it just sucks back more. Something's gotta move like yoop! And then I crawl to it again, I try to get to the keyhole and it sucks back again. And there was no words spoken. This one, it was me just trying to get to this sideways keyhole and I'd just get my hand to crawl through it and it would fucking take off again. And I woke up. And that was, that was my DMT experience.

Joe Rogan 43:54 You've only done it once?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 43:55 Only done it one time. I wanna do it again.

Joe Rogan 43:57 Yeah, you need to do it again. Let's do it together.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 43:58 So, they talk about marijuana... Okay. Done. They talk about marijuana being a gateway drug. Um, no, DMT is a gateway drug for me.

Joe Rogan 44:07 What's a gateway d- drug to?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 44:09 It allows you to do other drugs, and now I do a lot of mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 44:13 Well, it's one of those things where it lets you know that all your ideas about what drugs are are out the window.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 44:20 Right.

Joe Rogan 44:20 All your ide- ar- all your ideas about what reality is are out the window because you didn't think that this was a part of reality. How could anybody ever think it before you experience it?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 44:31 But what I don't get is things that sh- shapes and colors that I couldn't... Almost like you don't see today, where I could see 'em there.

Joe Rogan 44:41 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 44:41 And I could have exp- Like, the shapes and the movements, it was just so weird. Like, you're right, like reality is, like, "What the fuck is that?"

Joe Rogan 44:48 How is that reality? And it seems more vivid than reality.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 44:52 More vivid. But the cool thing I wanna tell people listening, like, you can just open your eyes, right? I mean, you would be real hazy and kinda gone, but I could open my eyes. I could see the little candles burning over there, I could hear lighters going. And then you're like, "Oh, I'm, I'm okay. I'm not in another dimension. I'm not gonna get stuck in this crazy other world."

Joe Rogan 45:11 Yeah. Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:11 And then I'd close my eyes and then I'd go back into it.

Joe Rogan 45:13 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:14 And, yeah, you're, y- I mean, it's like the most, the realest dream you've ever seen, right?

Joe Rogan 45:21 Yeah. There's another one called 5-MeO-DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT and it's, uh, it's different.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:27 Is that the one we're doing tonight?

Joe Rogan 45:28 That's a different one.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:30 W- the, the, that, that one makes people really scared.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:33 Oh.

Joe Rogan 45:33 That's a different one because you, you cease to exist on that one.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:36 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:37 It's more powerful, actually.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:38 Jesus.

Joe Rogan 45:38 More, more potent. Yeah, which i- is crazy to think. That it's something more potent than DMT, but it's more psychoactive in some ways and it's, uh, it's one of those weird ones that doesn't have visuals either. But you just go to, you go to everything. You go to heaven.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:52 Dude.

Joe Rogan 45:52 You, you become a part of it all.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 45:53 It was just how, it's crazy how clear and sense you could make of the unsenses, right? Like, I try to explain now and it, it sounds weird, but when I was in it, it's like everything's so clear.

Joe Rogan 46:06 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:07 Right?

Joe Rogan 46:07 But you realize how much of what's holding you back in this life is like insecurity and fear and, and, and it, it just, just not knowing, you know, and, and confusion and all this... And then it just sort of like pours water on the stuff that's dirty-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:24 ... and cleans all the bullshit out and goes, "No, it's all love."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:27 Right.

Joe Rogan 46:27 "It's all happiness, friends, experiences, life, comradery. Those are the important things." That's the, you have a part- you have a chance in this life to spread more of that and ke- help other people spread more of that and keep this ball rolling. And that could really change the world. It changes the world because the people you impact ripple out and they, they-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:45 Sure.

Joe Rogan 46:45 ... impact other people. Or you could just get caught up in arguing with people online. You know, you can get caught up (laughs) -

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:50 ... you can get caught up in the water over the dirt and just the chaos of it all.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 46:54 It doesn't take much to get me caught up, so they-

Joe Rogan 46:56 But that's also why you're a great fighter, you know? The, those things go hand-in-hand. If you're a person who just accepted bullshit, maybe you wouldn't be the guy that gets up in the morning when you don't want to.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:04 True.

Joe Rogan 47:04 Maybe you wouldn't be the guy that takes those fights on short notice and goes, "Fuck it." Maybe you'd be the guy that would be like, "You know what? This is not the right move for my career."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:12 "I have to sit back. I have to..." You're not a, you're, you're a wild man and that's why people love you, but that's also, that needs to be kinda... It needs to be, uh, appreciated but also managed.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:22 Right.

Joe Rogan 47:22 Like, the chaos of your personality and, and how you approach things. I mean, you almost fucking died in a cave for some time, bro.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:30 Yeah. That-

Joe Rogan 47:30 I mean, this is what you do, right?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:32 That's, that's my other drug, adrenaline.

Joe Rogan 47:34 Yeah, yeah. You gotta-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:35 Adrenaline, man.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:36 It, uh...

Joe Rogan 47:37 The things that people are scared of, you flock to.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:41 Yes.

Joe Rogan 47:41 It's like you wanna prove that you're not scared of 'em. And you are-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:43 And I am. I'm just as scared as you are.

Joe Rogan 47:45 Sure.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:45 Like skydiving. I love it because it's like, "Woo."

Joe Rogan 47:50 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:51 And we go.

Joe Rogan 47:51 Yeah. Y- there's no, there's no if, ands or buts when you jump out of a fucking plane.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:55 I'm flying planes now. Getting my pilot's license.

Joe Rogan 47:57 Really?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 47:58 Yeah. I'm, I'm putting... I've, I started a little while back, I quit for a while, but now I'm, I'm back. I'm all in, I'm flying, and, uh, I'm loving it, man. I'm-

Joe Rogan 48:06 I was just telling you, I watched that Lynyrd Skynyrd documentary last night.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:09 Don't, don't fly a shitty plane. That's how we lost Lynyrd Skynyrd.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:13 They, they needed to get their fucking plane fixed. Drugs.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:17 I mean, drugs. Fuck is drugs?

Joe Rogan 48:19 Fucking pill heads, man. Speed it up.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:20 The next time I'm on in two years when I come back, I'll be fly- I'll fly out here.

Joe Rogan 48:24 Yes (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:24 I'll fly out here (claps hands) .

Joe Rogan 48:26 Yeah, man. Uh-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:27 It'd be so, so wild, man.

Joe Rogan 48:28 That's a, that's a bold move, man. Learn how to fly.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:31 S-

Joe Rogan 48:31 I mean, that's the ultimate, right?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:32 So, these Earth drugs, you-

Joe Rogan 48:35 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:35 You learn about yourself, right? Like, when you're, when you're in that state, it's so crazy how you talk about-... ego and fear, and, and all these things that we deal with every day in f- Instagram. Which is one, because why Instagram? Because we can pretend that we're almost somebody we're not.

Joe Rogan 48:50 Sure.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:50 Like a lot of this... Right?

Joe Rogan 48:51 Sure. Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:52 People posting these pictures of them doing great, awesome things. And you're like, "Man, is that, is that really you day-to-day? Is that-"

Joe Rogan 48:58 Yeah. Right, right, right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 48:59 "... you?" I mean, so attacking your ego and ego's fucking one of the, probably the biggest thing, soul-destruction thing, I think, around. Because that's what, "I'm the big macho guy, right?"

Joe Rogan 49:12 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 49:12 "I need to, I need-"

Joe Rogan 49:13 It's like gasoline. You, it can be fuel. You can use it, but you gotta figure out how to contain it inside a combustion engine.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 49:19 And these earth drugs make you face those, right? Like, that's... So I started listening to your buddy Paul, and mushrooms, and I talked to my good friend Joe Schilling (laughs) who-

Joe Rogan 49:34 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 49:34 ... spoke to me about mushrooms. And you learn a lot about yourself when you're in these crazy heroic trips, right? And not only is it just learning about you, because you, you see the shit that you don't want to see. Like the weaker you, the smaller, little, pathetic you.

Joe Rogan 49:51 Petty.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 49:52 Petty you.

Joe Rogan 49:53 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 49:54 Right? And I'm to the point now, like I just did a super heroic dose of mushrooms. I'm at the point where I knew the bad trip was coming. And I look at all my buddies that were sitting around the campfire and fucking faces are all red and everyone's glowing red, and they're starting to, like, turn demon face to me. And I said-

Joe Rogan 50:12 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:12 "... fuck yes."

Joe Rogan 50:13 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:13 "Let's go."

Joe Rogan 50:15 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:15 "Let's go."

Joe Rogan 50:15 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:16 Because why, Joe?

Joe Rogan 50:17 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:17 Because the craziest thing about tripping hard like that is you, you fight it, and it just fights b- it's so much bigger and more powerful than you are.

Joe Rogan 50:26 Yeah, it gets bigger. You gotta let it go.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:27 It's the real you. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:28 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:28 So the harder you push, if you just, you learn to give in, right? Give in and let go of your ego.

Joe Rogan 50:36 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:36 Because you're no longer fighting this, "Oh, I'm fucking cowboy. Fuck you. My mind's stronger than you." No, motherfucker, it's not. Right? It's not. So-

Joe Rogan 50:46 That's the origin of all bad trips, trying to control the trips and them demons that you had in the closet that are-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:52 I love it.

Joe Rogan 50:52 ... busting through the-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:52 Now I face 'em. It's-

Joe Rogan 50:53 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 50:53 ... fucking so cool. So they say you learn a lot, right? So I'm getting how you learn from these things. So I, um, drug-trafficked a bunch of drugs to Singapore.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Did you really?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:06 Shh...

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:06 Bunch of mushrooms. Shoo.

Joe Rogan 51:08 I don't think you should have said that.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:09 That's all right. (laughs) I got 'em in Singapore.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Some of this is fiction.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:12 Fiction. Um, and I said, you know, "If I'm learning about me, for me, before a fight is the hardest thing I can deal with mentally. Who... Letting go of my ego and letting go of everything that I need to do, why does that attack me so hard?" So I remember laying in bed and I was-

Joe Rogan 51:31 What is the, what is the worst that attacks you? Like, what, give me, like, the darkest moments.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:36 You're just laying there, like, the nights before the fight, and you're sitting there and, and you're just losing it. Uh, your, uh, Rogan's announcing me, Butler's doing this, I'm-

Joe Rogan 51:47 Buffer (laughs) .

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:47 Buffer. Right, Buffer.

Joe Rogan 51:48 Buffer (laughs) . That's, that's his cousin.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:51 Yeah, his cousin.

Joe Rogan 51:51 Butler.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 51:52 And, uh, you're just losing, man. Losing sucks, right? Like, we're not, we're not losers. You're not... That's, that's... Me as an alpha male standing here like, "Oh, I'm fucking cowboy." Going out there and losing in front of millions of people. And, like, when your mind's working, it's always in the worst ways, in the, the most terrifying moments, right? Of-

Joe Rogan 52:11 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 52:12 ... of the fight. And so I'm laying there by myself and I would just, uh, I can't sleep. My mind's going crazy. So I wake up and I fucking eat these mushrooms. Tons, tons. And when I think I ate enough, eight more. And they have, like, these crazy garden lights out there. So I said, "I'm gonna walk out to these lights. About 45 minutes these motherfuckers are gonna hit." And somehow on my walk there, I end up in a barber shop.

Joe Rogan 52:40 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 52:40 Okay? I end up in a fucking barber shop. These mushrooms are starting to kick in really hard. So my barber sits me down and he just starts cutting. I don't even remember the dialogue we had in between. He just starts cutting my hair. And he's humming as he's cutting. (humming) And he's cutting, he said... Right, and I hear the clipping of the scissors. And I open my eyes and these big white hand with papier-mache blue center, scissors are cutting my beard. And he's humming. And for all you who have ever seen the Kanye West movie or music video of This is the Good Life, where the words come up in big bubbles. Losing sucks, um, you were born to win, keep coming up. Graffiti on the wall, one word, two word, two word. Losing sucks, you were born to win. Clip, clip, boom.

Joe Rogan 53:36 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 53:36 Right? He's humming the scissors cutting, making a music video in my mind of me watching, "Losing sucks, you were born to win." And I'm like, "What the fuck is going on?" Haircut's done. I walked through those gardens somehow through crazy Singapore. And I just started asking myself in this, like, crazy journey, I'm, I'm like, "What, what are you afraid of? What is it?" Why, why would you be scared to fight something that you love to do more than anything in the world? Like, what, what is it? What the fuck's going on? You know, and you have to, like I said, you gotta just release your, your ego and you gotta, you gotta look deep into your soul and ask, like, what is the purpose? Like, what, why, why are you scared? Why do you do, why do you act this way? And it's crazy the answers you get back from yourself, man. And I think maybe some people can just do it. Maybe people can just go into meditation and they can, they can reach these places of their brain. I can't. I have too much of a, of an ego and a shell built around my inner me that I can't get into it. So maybe, maybe being on these earth drugs allowed that to happen, right? And you could... I just remember sitting down. And it's crazy because...... your mind gives you somebody to talk to, but really you're just talking to yourself, right? You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 54:54 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 54:54 There's, there's, there's... or somebody, something shows up, like the Rock sucks talking to you, or... To me, I just sat down and closed my eyes and that "losing sucks, you were born to win" kept fucking just coming in like a crazy movie. I'm sitting down, I'm in a red convertible, windows down, driving down a highway, and that's what's coming up over the, over the... nonstop. And I'm like, "What the fuck is going on here, man?" And that's when, like, an outer voice would just come and, and talk to me over, over top of everything, like, like a narrating of a movie. And I would be like, "Why am I here?" And it would, it would, it would answer, you know, because, "Because, Cowboy, you're, you're, you're trying to find what's wrong. You're trying to answer your questions." And I'd be like, "What questions?" And it would, it w- it would tell me the questions that I was there to answer, man. It was fucking the most bizarre trip I've ever had.

Joe Rogan 55:46 Like, what questions?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 55:46 "Why, why do you get so afraid? What are you scared of? What are you scared of, Cowboy? Like, what? You did all the training, you did all the hard..." Why, why someone who fights for a living is so scared to go out there and fight? And it's, they're scared of losing, right? Scared of thinking that, that Joe Rogan and my grandma and my mom, they already, they already expect so much of me, but you don't. You're still my friend. That's what I've come to realize. My grandma's still... The sun still-

Joe Rogan 56:12 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:12 ... sets in the morning.

Joe Rogan 56:13 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:14 Right? Rises, excuse me.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Yeah. (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:17 Set somewhere.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:18 Set somewhere. You know, every day, the, the grass is still growing. My parents still love me. Nothing-

Joe Rogan 56:24 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:24 Ha- nothing happened.

Joe Rogan 56:25 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:25 You just lost a stupid combat sport-

Joe Rogan 56:28 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:28 ... sport. You lost a sport. Your life isn't over. You know what I think? They've been using mushrooms to help with depression, because it, it helps lift you and puts you in a better mood, right? And I think it's awesome for all these people that, that think about maybe suicide and think about, "My life's over. This is it. This girl dumped me." It's like, no it's not. It's not even near over. There's so much fucking life out there to live and you can't allow these small, petty fucking things to, to, to take over your life, man.

Joe Rogan 56:55 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 56:55 And, um, to me, that's what the medicine has, has, taught me to do. So I haven't had another fight since, so I don't know if that fixed ... But your buddy, Paul, talked about he lost his stutter because of these cr- right? So I'm like, "If they can do it, I can do it." And I try it. And I did... So don't go out there and fucking do a bunch of mushrooms, guys. I'm just trying to... (laughs) I'm not promoting that.

Joe Rogan 57:15 Unless you need to.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 57:16 Unless you need to (laughs) . I'm just saying, that's what it took me to do to realize what the fuck I need to do, man. And, um, yeah, it's, it's wild and crazy. It's fucking crazy.

Joe Rogan 57:29 It's crazy that it's illegal.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 57:31 Right.

Joe Rogan 57:31 Like, why... What are you protecting people from? Like, how is that a law?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 57:34 They're protecting them from themselves, 'cause some people don't wanna see what they really are.

Joe Rogan 57:37 They don't know what it is. I don't, I don't, I don't think there's a grand conspiracy in that way. Like, a lot of people think they're trying to protect us from enlightenment. I don't think that's true, because I don't think they know what it is. I don't think they know that it gives you enlightenment. I think they think somehow or another it's bad for you.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 57:51 So I'm sure, uh, during some of your tr- do you end up talking to somebody also?

Joe Rogan 57:54 Yeah, I've had people talk to me or things talk to me. But you don't hear the words. Like, you know what they're saying and you hear it without actual, like-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:01 Correct.

Joe Rogan 58:02 ... you know?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:02 Fair enough.

Joe Rogan 58:03 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:03 That would make... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:04 It's like, te- telepathic.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:05 And what... But it's very clear. There's like, there's a, like, a progression of words and-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:10 'Cause you're talking to yourself-

Joe Rogan 58:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:12 ... at the end of the day.

Joe Rogan 58:12 There's a narrative. Yeah. Well, I think you are. You know, I don't know what... I- I- I've tried to, like, put a handle on it, and I don't think it's... I don't think I really have the tools to... I don't think I know what's happening.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:24 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:24 I think I, I, I could try to, like, "Well, this is what's happening. It's all in the back of your brain. Your visual cortex is actually-"

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:30 I don't know if that's true. It's so mind-blowing, I feel like I'd be an asshole to, to say-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:35 Jumping a finger on it.

Joe Rogan 58:35 ... that I know what it, what it is. I don't know what it is.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:38 Man.

Joe Rogan 58:38 I have no idea what it is. But it's definitely beneficial and it makes people nicer. Like, I don't see any bad sides to it.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:44 No, none. I, I, I've, I, I try and explain to people. Like, I don't, I don't wake up hungover.

Joe Rogan 58:50 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 58:51 So during my extensive reading and arguing with people about this, I've discovered, uh, microdosing mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 59:00 What's the m- the argument against?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:03 You're gonna get addicted. What are you gonna do when you can't do it anymore?

Joe Rogan 59:05 Because then you don't get addicted from them.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:07 That, well, that, that's, that's my argument back, right? That-

Joe Rogan 59:08 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:08 ... they actually use mushrooms to take, pull people off of hardcore drugs, I guess is-

Joe Rogan 59:13 They just showed, there was a study that was recently published, see if you can find this. Um, I think it's Psynauts, P-S-Y-N-A-U-T-S, on Twitter, posted this, that, um, they showed that psilocybin dosage is more effective than any other therapy for, uh, kicking drugs, alcohol, and nicotine. Yeah, it's, uh, it just makes you realize why you're doing it in the first place. You don't really need it-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:37 It's like-

Joe Rogan 59:38 ... so all the other stuff.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:39 ... it's like-

Joe Rogan 59:39 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:39 ... it's like if anyone has ever seen the movie Limitless and you pop that pill and you're like, "Whoof."

Joe Rogan 59:43 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:44 "There we go."

Joe Rogan 59:45 There's something to it, for sure.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 59:46 There's something to it. And I was up in, um, up in Grand Lake, Colorado, and with a bunch of X Games guys, and we were sitting at a table and I said, "Hey, man, any of you guys, um... Give me some mushrooms?" (laughs) And they're like, "What? You microdose?" And I was like, "Well, no, but I'm... Tell me about it."

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 (laughs)

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:05 "Ain't that right?" Every one of them at the table are like, "Dude, we don't compete without it. We, we just don't do it. It's just something-

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 Wow.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:12 ... that we..." Every, every one of my X Games models that have ever won, microdosing mushrooms. He's like, "It's just something... It's like a, a secret thing that we all do, but we don't talk about." Because if you tell s-... If I walk in and- well, then probably not your family, but somebody else's family and I'm like, "Oh, just took my mushrooms today," they'd be like, "You can't hang out with him anymore."

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:31 You're a bad influence.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:31 "You're a bad influence. He, he's, he's a bad guy."

Joe Rogan 1:00:34 Yeah. "You're a bad guy out there doing drugs."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:36 But why would... I could tell you, "Joe, I could give you this pill that I grew, that I ground up and I made, or you can go get a prescription from the pharmacy and take Adderall and try and do the same, try and replicate the same thing. But this is so much healthier. You're not gonna have any side effects, no addiction."... where that, who knows what they're putting in your body.

Joe Rogan 1:00:57 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:00:58 And to me, that's so much cleaner, so much more amazing, I feel. Right? So I started this micro-dosing mushrooms, and man do you feel like you're fucking tuned in. It's insane. So then-

Joe Rogan 1:01:14 It's like the world's a different frequency.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:15 Totally.

Joe Rogan 1:01:16 Do you know how ... You ever used binoculars and, uh, you're looking through them and shit's all blurry, and then you just adjust that little knob a little-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 ... and boom-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:23 Boom.

Joe Rogan 1:01:23 ... it comes into focus?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:24 Comes into focus.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 That's really what it's like. It's like, the reg- rest of w- You could look through binoculars and they're a little off and it's okay.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:30 You can see what you're looking at. But then you adjust that little bitch a little bit, like, "Oh-"

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:34 (laughs) Cool.

Joe Rogan 1:01:34 "... there it is."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:35 There it is.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 "I see what's up."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:36 And it, it feels like the back of your brain is turned on and working.

Joe Rogan 1:01:40 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:40 Like, like you're using everything.

Joe Rogan 1:01:42 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:42 I love it. I love the feeling.

Joe Rogan 1:01:44 Do you know about the stoned ape theory?

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:45 No.

Joe Rogan 1:01:46 There's a guy named Terence McKenna, died a few years back, and, uh, his brother, Dennis McKenna, actually probably does a, an even better job of explaining it, because he's a real scientist.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:01:55 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 And he had a theory that there's a, there's a reason why human beings evolved so quickly over a short period of time, and it's that the, the climate changed.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:02:04 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:04 And that the rain forests receded into grasslands and these monkey people, like we used to be, climbed out of the trees and started experimenting with different food sources. And one of the things they started doing is flipping over cow patties and they would look for beetles and grubs and things that they would eat, and then they would experiment with the mushrooms that grew on the cow patties.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:02:21 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 So, he says that at the same time that these forests were receding into grasslands, all these ungulates, all these wild cows, were, uh, they were ... they l- existed in this area. And then, most likely, these, these things left behind shit and mushrooms grew in the shit.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:02:37 Not most likely, 100%. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 Yeah. Yeah. And then these, these things ate these mushrooms and that, over a period of two million years, the human brain size doubled. And apparently, it's the biggest mystery in the entire fossil record.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:02:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 The fact that something so important as the human brain would double over such a short period of time, and they don't know what it is. And there's a bunch of different theories that-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:02:57 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:02:57 ... use of fire, cooking meat, uh, the throwing arm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:00 But you think, but you think the use of fire, the, th- cooking meat was sparked because ...

Joe Rogan 1:03:05 It's possible.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:06 You're right?

Joe Rogan 1:03:06 Yeah. It's possible that it's ... It's also language is possible. And, and Dennis explains it very well on the first podcast we did, with scientific terms like-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:14 (laughs) Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 ... what part of the brain would be excited by psilocybin that would increase your creativity and spark the creation-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 ... of language and, and, and sounds. Like, you know, like, one of the things that happens with people that are tripping hard, like, sounds become objects.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 You start, like, moaning and singing, and you see your sound. Like, the Icaros, the (singing) .

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 You see those things ex- I- e- there's some connection between sounds and, and physical things. And his idea was that this is how words and language was created, and this is how the human being evolved out of the lower hominids, that we most likely at least partially evolved because of consuming psychedelic mushrooms.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:03:56 I like it. And I ... and, and I believe it.

Joe Rogan 1:03:58 It makes sense if they were everywhere. I mean, if they were everywhere, like, you know, fucking, y- you know, fill in the blank, whatever weed that you could see just growing in the field.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:06 It's entirely possible there was climates at some point in time in human history where that shit was everywhere.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:11 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:04:12 Especially when there's no large-scale agriculture and these animals just shit all over the place.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:16 And, well, they probably didn't know, they were probably, you know, just berries, nuts, mushrooms-

Joe Rogan 1:04:21 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:21 ... and then all of a sudden, "Oh, fuck."

Joe Rogan 1:04:23 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:24 "Whatever those one were-"

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:25 "Keep, keep those around."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:26 "Keep those coming." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:27 Yeah. And then they cultivated them. And there's a lot of ancient cultures that, uh, they worshiped cattle and they, they think there's probably a bunch of reasons for that, like, they used the cattle for milk and they probably ate them.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:38 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:04:38 But it's also possible that they worshipped them because they grew mushrooms-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:41 Mushrooms.

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 ... on their shit. That's also one of the reasons why some people feel like the Hindus-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 ... always respected the cows and considered the cow sacred, even though, like, some of them are starving, they won't eat cows.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:04:52 Right. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 It's like, there, there may be a connection to soma. And soma, they don't know what was in soma, but soma is on all of the ancient Hindu texts-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 ... and it's some sort of a psychedelic, and they think it perhaps had something to do with psychedelic mushrooms that were growing on cow shit. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. It only makes sense.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:10 Well, I mean, you ... Like you s- like you said, when you look back that w- w- in reading about all the mushrooms, I was ... you know, you look back and from the beginning of time, they have people different-

Joe Rogan 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:20 Even, like, the Mayans, right? Drawing pictures of something. They don't know what.

Joe Rogan 1:05:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:25 Some kind of psychedelic. And, of course, it would probably be where the, the shaman or the, the town drug dealer would- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:33 (laughs) He would figure it out and get it to you.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:34 Right. Figure it out.

Joe Rogan 1:05:35 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:35 He'd figure it out and, and then you'd go on these quests.

Joe Rogan 1:05:37 Mm-hmm.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:38 And so that, that has to play into something. And now, all of a sudden, today, in 2018, they're like, "That's illegal."

Joe Rogan 1:05:43 (bangs desk) Well, you know, the only people that don't think that any of this stuff makes sense, like, the people that are listening right now that are dismissing this, are just people who haven't done them.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:50 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:50 If you've done those drugs, you're probably like, "Yeah."

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:53 Nodding your head, like, "Yes." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:54 "This, this could probably be what it is." Yeah. There's ... I mean, they grow everywhere. I think-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:05:58 But have they, but have they done the drug for party reasons or have they done the drug because-

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:04 ... they're trying to learn?

Joe Rogan 1:06:05 Right. Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:05 Right? I mean, I think that's, I think that's two totally different avenues. If me and you were like, "Let's eat a bunch of mushrooms-"

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:09 "... and then go fucking walk the strip."

Joe Rogan 1:06:10 Right. Right. Right.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:11 That's totally different than if me and you were like, "Hey, man. Let's, let's u- let's, let's learn. Let's, let's learn from this."

Joe Rogan 1:06:15 Yeah. Let's dive in.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:17 Let's dive in.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 Yeah.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:18 So I think there ... I think just your mind is already put into what direction you want to go, so that ... I mean, that's ... Right?

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 Yeah. Um, I just think w- we've been poisoned by propaganda. And the propaganda, the people that created it, they're not alive anymore, and we're still being haunted by their stupid shit-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:06:37 ... from the 1930s.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:38 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:06:39 You know, the ... all that, uh, William Randolph Hearst shit. They, they, they, they poisoned us with everything and then Nixon in the 1970s when they passed the sweeping psychedelic acts-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:06:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:48 ... and made everything illegal, they poisoned us again. And we're still trapped with this ancient, stupid way of looking at things that, that's not based on reality at all.You, people should have freedom. If you believe in America in particular-

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:01 ... you should believe in freedom. We should be able to do whatever the fuck we want if we... as long as we're not hurting anybody.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:06 Correct.

Joe Rogan 1:07:06 But mushrooms is like one of the best examples of you do whatever the fuck you want without hurting anybody. No one's dying of an overdose.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:12 No one's committing crimes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 No one's doing anything bad. In, in fact this, it's probably gonna make you a better person. It's, it's probably very likely gonna make you a better person.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:07:20 And somehow or another, even in 2018 with the internet, with all that we know, it's still illegal. And that's, that's, that's something.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:28 Joe, I enjoy drinking beer with you, buddy. This is-

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 Me too, brother.

Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone 1:07:30 ... we should have a little campfire with your fucking set. We'll slice some deer.

Joe Rogan 1:07:33 Exactly. We should. We should