JRE MMA Show #86 with Josh Thomson

Joe Rogan 0:01 Three, two, one... Joshua! What's happening, my man?

Josh Thomson 0:05 (laughs) What's going on, man?

Joe Rogan 0:06 Good to see you. So, uh, I looked at your Instagram yesterday, and you had that video of Stephen A. Smith-

Josh Thomson 0:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:11 ... and immediately I was like, "Oh, my goodness. This explains so much."

Josh Thomson 0:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:17 Play this. Play, play this, Jamie. Watch this, watch this. First of all, (glass breaking) someone needs to explain to me what's happening here. I don't know why he's punching a baby.

Josh Thomson 0:25 Yeah. Well, it looks like a dick punch to the left. (laughs) What?

Joe Rogan 0:27 I don't even think it's a dick, unless that guy's got a two-foot dick. Look how low he's punching.

Josh Thomson 0:33 I... No idea, man. I-

Joe Rogan 0:34 This guy should not be allowed to talk about fighting.

Josh Thomson 0:37 Yeah, look, um...

Joe Rogan 0:38 Just-

Josh Thomson 0:39 I'm gonna cut him a little bit of slack. Only, I'm, I... Seriously, I... We have this... Here's the thing with Strikeforce. We had kind of a similar situation, not like this though, by the way, with Gus Johnson.

Joe Rogan 0:47 I remember, yes.

Josh Thomson 0:48 With Gus- was trying to talk, and, and I love Gus. When he's talking basketball-

Joe Rogan 0:51 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 0:51 ... I think he's got the energy and the voice that makes people like, oh, wow, they're gripped to the TV. This, I can understand with Stephen A., but this is not-

Joe Rogan 1:00 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 1:00 ... what you wanna release after you just called someone who's a pioneer in the sport, you basically call him a quitter.

Joe Rogan 1:06 You call a guy a quitter. First of all, he had a broken orbital bone, okay? You're saying he was a quitter? He got his face smashed, okay?

Josh Thomson 1:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13 He got cracked by one of the biggest punchers in the sport.

Josh Thomson 1:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:15 He, uh... He has the most wins in the sport. He has the most wins by finish. He has the most bonuses. I mean, come on.

Josh Thomson 1:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:23 He has the most fights. Come on. Y- you're calling that guy a quitter? He got cracked. That's what happens. Look, fighting is the only sport that you could end it early, right?

Josh Thomson 1:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:33 You can't end a football game in 40 seconds. Imagine, imagine if you just... Your front line was so strong, your fucking quarterback was so badass, you could storm a football game in 40 seconds, it'd be a different sport, right?

Josh Thomson 1:45 Yeah, my concern with him, though, was that, like... Look, he's fine he just did the video. I get it. Like (laughs) it's 'cause you're trying to learn the sport.

Joe Rogan 1:53 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 1:53 But I gotta tell you, like, DC sent me this video.

Joe Rogan 1:55 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 1:55 He basically commented on it, and I said, I said... D, D's trying to protect him. DC is trying to protect him. I said, "You cannot protect this guy."

Joe Rogan 2:03 No, no.

Josh Thomson 2:03 "Not from this." You can't call someone like Cowboy Cerrone or any other... I'm sorry, any other top guy in any organization.

Joe Rogan 2:09 Yes.

Josh Thomson 2:09 I don't care if it's UFC, Bellator, ONE, any of them.

Joe Rogan 2:12 ONE, yes. Completely agree.

Josh Thomson 2:13 All the, all these organ- You cannot do that to these guys. These guys lay it on the line every time. We're not slapping a puck or hitting a baseball, okay?

Joe Rogan 2:19 Yes.

Josh Thomson 2:19 We're really out there getting hurt.

Joe Rogan 2:21 Yes.

Josh Thomson 2:21 And when someone calls you a quitter like that, he better be car- I'm not saying he should be careful, like watch his back, but don't expect these fighters to be very courteous to you next time you walk in the hall. And that's the issue that I think we come across here with top... Fighters are very offensive when... They get offended with things like this.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Rightly so.

Josh Thomson 2:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:37 It's a different thing. There's... The, the emotional cost of losing a fight is so much different than losing a game.

Josh Thomson 2:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:45 It's not the same. And there's a culture in sports broadcasting, whether it's radio or television, this just diminishing of people. There's this shit-talking that goes with sports, you know. "He always falls apart. That guy... Th- That motherfucker needs to give his money back. He sucks." This and that. And the other guy's like, "Oh, I can't believe you're saying that." You could do that in sports radio, and people love it.

Josh Thomson 3:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:08 'Cause if you're on the job site, and you listen to the radio, and you're... you know, you're fucking hammering nails. You're like, "You're right, he does suck."

Josh Thomson 3:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:14 And there's a mentality that goes along with that kind of sports radio, sports guy talk. I hate that shit. I've resisted that from the beginning, and I've, I've, I've shit on those guys-

Josh Thomson 3:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:25 ... from the beginning because it's not the same thing. You're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about fighting. You're talking about unbelievable physical consequences, including, knock on wood, in our sport, it's very rare, but death.

Josh Thomson 3:38 Yeah. No, it's true. But the other thing, though, too, is that you're criticizing someone for being a quitter, and someone who's been, been there on every level of the game.

Joe Rogan 3:44 Every level.

Josh Thomson 3:45 But, not only that, but then you look like you've never played basketball or baseball or any other sport in your life, either, h- and it's like that. I'm sorry. It's... You cannot criticize people. And to be on the talk show, like you're saying, those talk show radios, that's the energy you need to bring when you're going against someone like Max Kellerman or any of the other... or Skip Bayless and those guys. Go ahead and have that conversation with them, but you cannot... You can't look like that (laughs) as they talk shit. I'm sorry, man.

Joe Rogan 4:09 That culture, the culture of the sport... Look, Max Kellerman is a different animal. Max Kellerman is in- incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to sports and, and really so when it comes to boxing. He's not a shit-talker. He's just more honest about it.

Josh Thomson 4:21 Yeah, that's true.

Joe Rogan 4:22 But there's a lot of currency in being a Stephen A. Smith, you know.

Josh Thomson 4:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:25 He's really entertaining. That, that shit-talking that he does. He's a... he's... you know. He's a, he's a guy that's fun to watch. He talks a lot of shit, and he gets real loud, and everybody disagrees with him and... Look, it's made him a fantastic career. That's why. And he carries that over to MMA. I think it's a bad idea.

Josh Thomson 4:43 Is it a shtick, though? That's my thought, my process. Like, you know how Chael has his shtick? Like, he-

Joe Rogan 4:47 Yes.

Josh Thomson 4:47 And like, the, the camera turns off. Colby has his shtick-

Joe Rogan 4:49 Yes.

Josh Thomson 4:49 ... and when the camera turns off. They're not that person.

Joe Rogan 4:51 Right.

Josh Thomson 4:52 Is he that person in real life?

Joe Rogan 4:53 I think it blends in, you know.

Josh Thomson 4:56 Or is he... He just now inherited that person, so that's who he is now in real life?

Joe Rogan 4:59 Andrew Dice Clay-

Josh Thomson 5:00 I mean, here's the deal.

Joe Rogan 5:00 Andrew Dice Clay, his real name is Andrew Silverstein. And the Dice Man was a character that he used to do in his act. Dice Clay is, like, one of the best impressionists ever.

Josh Thomson 5:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:10 And he does, like... He does John Travolta and all these different people, and it's amazing. And in his act, he would do all these impressions, and then he would do this guy, the Dice Man, and he would do these fucking rhymes, and he'd put this jacket on. And everybody loved that so much, he just became the Dice Man. And then after a few years, he was just Dice Man 24/7.

Josh Thomson 5:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:29 He's wearing these leather jackets everywhere. Everywhere he goes, he's got weightlifting gloves on. Every time you meet him, he's got weightlifting gloves. He became this guy, right? And it's a thing that happens to people sometimes, where people love one thing.

Josh Thomson 5:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:41 You lean into your fans. And I think Stephen A. Smith... I don't know him as a human being. I've only met him a couple times.

Josh Thomson 5:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:46 He's a nice guy. Nice guy to me. We had a nice conversation. On air, we had a little weirdness 'cause he was just saying, "We didn't learn anything about C- Conor." I'm like, "The fuck you didn't."

Josh Thomson 5:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:55 He just destroyed Cowboy in 40 seconds.

Josh Thomson 5:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:58 Like, you learn something. You learn he can perform under the bright lights in a giant pay-per-view after more than a year and a half out of the game. Yeah, you learn something. You just don't know what you saw.

Josh Thomson 6:07 Yeah. I, I agree with you 100% that y- he did learn something. I mean-

Joe Rogan 6:11 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 6:11 ... like, I learned something from him. Like, somebody who'd taken that am- that amount of time off, and I'm gonna say this, um, (clears throat) to be frank. Obviously, I, I work for Bellator, and I do a lot of work for them, but the thing is, you, you kind of have to give credit where credit is due. I give credit to all the fighters. It doesn't matter if you're in one. Look, Eddie, to me, is f- ... one of the best 55-pounders to ever walk the face of the Earth.

Joe Rogan 6:29 Agreed.

Josh Thomson 6:29 Conor McGregor, to me, I thought he did things in that fight against Khabib that no other guy has been able to do. First off, he won a round.

Joe Rogan 6:36 Yes.

Josh Thomson 6:36 That's something no one's ever ... Now, people say, "Oh, well, Khabib took the round off." Yeah, 'cause each maybe he tried to finish him at the end of the second, but the bottom line is, he still won the round.

Joe Rogan 6:44 Yes.

Josh Thomson 6:45 Okay? And there's not only that, but there was a lot of times and opportunities where Khabib had a hard time getting the take down. We didn't see that against guys with wrestling backgrounds like Abel Trujillo and those other guys, where he was flinging around winning records basically for the most take downs in one fight.

Joe Rogan 6:58 Yes.

Josh Thomson 6:59 There's tons of things that Conor does that people overlook and underestimate because he's such a knockout artist and he's so good, and his stance and his style and things that ... He brought this to the next level. And I, I, you cannot discredit what he's done in the sport. What I learned from that is that from somebody who can take 15 months off and come back and perform the way that he did against someone like Donald Cerrone is absolutely amazing. That's what I took.

Joe Rogan 7:23 That's why you need guys like you-

Josh Thomson 7:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:26 ... doing post-fight commentary and discussing these things. Not people who don't understand the sport and practice dick punches.

Josh Thomson 7:32 Well, I w- (laughs) or baby hitting.

Joe Rogan 7:35 It's a different thing.

Josh Thomson 7:35 It's basically the same-

Joe Rogan 7:36 Maybe he's hitting babies.

Josh Thomson 7:36 Yeah, he's hitting babies.

Joe Rogan 7:36 He's really into punching babies.

Josh Thomson 7:38 I want to ask you this though, 'cause it was funny 'cause I could see your face in the middle of it all. How awkward is that for you to stand between (laughs) the two of them and go, "W- what are you guys fucking talking about?" Like, I mean it can-

Joe Rogan 7:48 Yeah. I would, I would have preferred to talk to DC or Felder-

Josh Thomson 7:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:52 ... or you or anybody who understands the sport. I don't think it's the right way to do it. Uh, the one gentleman to my right, Mike Old, w- j- Jamie, what is his last name? Uh, he was great. And, and, uh, Stephen Smith was very nice to me too, and he said he's gonna get into podcasts. I have no problem with him as a human being.

Josh Thomson 8:07 No.

Joe Rogan 8:07 I just think, uh, look, I don't know jack shit about baseball.

Josh Thomson 8:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:11 I don't know jack shit-

Josh Thomson 8:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:12 ... about basketball. I literally don't even know the rules.

Josh Thomson 8:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:15 I don't know what ... When people foul people, I'm not sure why, I don't know-

Josh Thomson 8:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:18 ... what, what's happening.

Josh Thomson 8:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:19 I know MMA. I understand it, so if you wanna talk about MMA, I'd like to talk to MMA about someone else who knows MMA.

Josh Thomson 8:26 Yeah. The, like you were saying though, I, I was wa- listen to one of your podcasts the other day with Mike Baker.

Joe Rogan 8:30 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 8:31 'Kay? And he said like, "Look, I don't agree with Bernie Sanders' policies." 'Kay? But he, Bernie Sanders probably is a really nice guy.

Joe Rogan 8:36 Yes.

Josh Thomson 8:36 But it doesn't mean that I have to like what he does in front of the camera, 'kay, for, for him to call MMA. I don't have to like that. I can still like him as a person.

Joe Rogan 8:44 Yes.

Josh Thomson 8:44 That's where we need to make sure that we differentiate between the two things. Like, look, he probably is a really good guy, and I actually have met him. I met him at the Floyd Mayweather and Conor fight and said hi, he said, "Hey, how's it going?" Like, "Hey, what do you think?" And that was the conversation. It was real quick, real brief, maybe two minutes. But, he seemed like a nice person at that time. But when, when I was listening to him talk and calling Cerrone basically a quitter, that to me, I just lost, I lost respect in that avenue that you're not supposed to be working in our sport.

Joe Rogan 9:08 Yes.

Josh Thomson 9:08 'Kay? And you need to make some sort of adjustment, whether it's dick punching or something else.

Joe Rogan 9:13 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 9:13 But you need to figure it out. You need to ... Like, I understand, I get that it's a good idea for all people that have never covered the sport to try to get into it. 'Kay? Um, maybe hold off on the videos like that (laughs) for a while before you post them.

Joe Rogan 9:25 (laughs) Before you post them.

Josh Thomson 9:25 Before you post them.

Joe Rogan 9:26 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 9:27 But I, I like that he's trying, and I'm gonna give him credit for that. And I think like with Gus, there was a lot of rumblings about Gus Johnson in the very beginning, but we gave him a run for a while.

Joe Rogan 9:35 Yes.

Josh Thomson 9:36 And I really like Gus, he's a great person. Always been great every time I've talked to him and met with him and, and worked with him side by side as well calling fights, uh, at, with Strikeforce. Great person. But his forte is basketball. And for him, whatever his forte is, Stephen A. Smith-

Joe Rogan 9:50 Yes.

Josh Thomson 9:50 ... he's got, I think, he may have to stick with that and we ... I think that I agree, they have to bring DC back in to work with you alongside.

Joe Rogan 9:55 Yes.

Josh Thomson 9:56 'Cause he is phenomenal, man.

Joe Rogan 9:57 Well, DC and me ... Yeah. DC's phenomenal. And DC and me having that conversation would've been a completely different conversation. And it would've been, it would've p- been better for the sport.

Josh Thomson 10:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:05 Because, look, uh, there's no, there's no positive in downplaying the career of Donald Cerrone or what he can do as a fighter. What that showed to me was how phenomenal Conor performed.

Josh Thomson 10:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:16 That's what it showed me. And if, if either you or I was talking about cricket, we were on, on TV doing commentary on cricket, we would look out of place. We'd look far ... It would be fucked up and real cricket fans would be upset at us.

Josh Thomson 10:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:30 Right? Now, that's nothing. That's just a sport, right?

Josh Thomson 10:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:33 This is ... You are, uh, naked in the most literal sense of the word. You're, you're naked physically, you're naked emotionally. When fighters lose, it's, it's fucking devastating. For Conor to smash Cowboy like that in front of his wife, his kid, his grandma-

Josh Thomson 10:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:48 ... and then the whole world. Like, that is, that's ... And you gotta have some respect for that man.

Josh Thomson 10:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 10:53 You know? And this sport demands a different perspective. It's, it's not the same thing as a ball going into a hoop.

Josh Thomson 11:00 No.

Joe Rogan 11:00 It's not the same thing as crossing a line with a football.

Josh Thomson 11:02 No.

Joe Rogan 11:02 It's different. It's very intense and very personal. And it's also very fucking dangerous. And to, to play it off like it's just a game, I, I just, I don't agree with it and I just think that we have plenty of fucking people out there that understand the sport. There's plenty of them.

Josh Thomson 11:18 Yep.

Joe Rogan 11:19 There's ... But the thing about him is he's really popular.

Josh Thomson 11:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:21 And Jamie, w- weren't you saying he just got a giant deal or something like that? A big- Yeah, he's their top paid swee- con- ... Uh, I had his contract up. He's got like (clears throat) an extension to get like eight million a year now or something like that. Yeah, and that's because he's so ... His personality is so fun. It's, he, he's a fun guy to watch and people love shit talking.

Josh Thomson 11:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 11:38 They love two people arguing about shit, and one person's better at arguing. And, and Stephen A. Smith is really good at that stuff. But it's not the place for MMA. It's just not the pla- it's not, it's not the same thing.

Josh Thomson 11:50 It's, it's not because, um ...... because the guys themselves can fight.

Joe Rogan 11:55 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 11:55 You know, when you see what happened last night at, what, Kansas and Kansas State or whatever, when they started throwing punches and it was like-

Joe Rogan 12:00 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 12:00 It looked like a bunch of girls throwing windmills.

Joe Rogan 12:02 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 12:02 You know what I mean? Like, that's really the reality of it.

Joe Rogan 12:04 Yes.

Josh Thomson 12:04 It's like, now if he wants to go out there and talk about it, go ahead and talk about it, he can say all the things he wants 'cause these are college kids that can't fight, obviously, we just saw.

Joe Rogan 12:11 Right.

Josh Thomson 12:11 You know, but we're talking about professional athletes. They, they've, their life has been around this craft.

Joe Rogan 12:15 Yes.

Josh Thomson 12:15 And now you're gonna say things like that? It's very disrespectful.

Joe Rogan 12:19 It's just so common with sports, to talk about a guy who can't show up on game day, talk about a guy who keeps dropping the ball, talk about a guy who fi-... And you shit on those guys.

Josh Thomson 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:28 But it's just a different thing with fighting. And it's also, with fighting, li- you, you, you have to know it or no one's gonna respect you.

Josh Thomson 12:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:38 If you don't know what you're talking about and you're talking about it in front of millions of people, like, man, that's a bad look for everybody.

Josh Thomson 12:44 Yep.

Joe Rogan 12:44 It's a bad look for ESPN, it's a bad look for him, it's a bad look for the sport. It's like, there's other people that can do this.

Josh Thomson 12:51 Yeah. We, we caught a lot of flack for Gus for a while, the own- Strikeforce did. Like, uh, and then, uh, it trickled on up to CBS and that whole deal happ-

Joe Rogan 12:58 With the Nate, Nate Diaz mayhem brawl.

Josh Thomson 13:00 Yes.

Joe Rogan 13:00 Remember? "These things happen in MMA." Yeah.

Josh Thomson 13:02 Yeah. That's definitely not the words you wanna use in that (laughs) situation.

Joe Rogan 13:06 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 13:06 You know what I mean? But it does, honestly, like you just said, it re- does reflect badly, not just on ESPN itself but the UFC as well because they're, they're in business together.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Yes.

Josh Thomson 13:14 And it kinda looks bad for both. Like, "Hey, you guys, we need to monitor who's behind that microphone because we're representing our talent and our talent is what makes us the money."

Joe Rogan 13:22 But what's funny is, with Stephen A. Smith, he's, his personality and his brand is based on that kinda shit talking-

Josh Thomson 13:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:30 ... so this is all good for him. This is all good for him. Like, the more people talk shit about him, the better it is for him and then he just ramps it up even more and more people are paying attention and the ratings go up-

Josh Thomson 13:39 Until he sees Cowboy in the elevator. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:42 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 13:43 Go ride a fucking head, buddy. Let me hear you. Who's quitting now, bitch?

Joe Rogan 13:47 (laughs) Yeah.

Josh Thomson 13:47 You know, those are the things that-

Joe Rogan 13:49 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 13:49 I gotta tell you, you just, no, no, think about this-

Joe Rogan 13:52 Yes.

Josh Thomson 13:52 If he said something like that about a Nate or Nick Diaz and they saw him in a fucking elevator-

Joe Rogan 13:55 They would fuck him up.

Josh Thomson 13:56 They would fuck him up.

Joe Rogan 13:57 Legitimately.

Josh Thomson 13:58 It, like, you would just gotta be, like, those are scenarios where you just gotta be careful. Now-

Joe Rogan 14:01 Right.

Josh Thomson 14:01 ... Cowboy's never gonna do that. Hey man-

Joe Rogan 14:04 Right.

Josh Thomson 14:04 ... kinda just watch what you say, come on man, like that.

Joe Rogan 14:05 Yeah, right.

Josh Thomson 14:05 You know, my family's there, my grandmother's there, you know, my kid's there.

Joe Rogan 14:08 Right.

Josh Thomson 14:08 Like, you know, let's, let's dial it back a little bit. That's Co- Cowboy's a fucking, he's just an am- amazing person, you know, overall.

Joe Rogan 14:15 He is. Yeah, I love that guy.

Josh Thomson 14:15 So when you're talking, yeah, when you're talking about athletes and find it like, Nate Diaz don't, he ain't saying shit to you, he's just gonna sock you.

Joe Rogan 14:21 Look, everybody knows what happened. What happened is Conor had a spectacular performance.

Josh Thomson 14:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:28 Cowboy got caught off guard and he got finished quick. That's what happened.

Josh Thomson 14:31 Yep.

Joe Rogan 14:32 All the other stuff is unnecessary. The emo- the emotional devastation of a 40-second KO like that-

Josh Thomson 14:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:38 ... is, we have, as a, with a, as a respectful human being, you gotta leave all that other stuff alone. All that shit talking, if you wanna say it in the gym to one of your homies-

Josh Thomson 14:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:47 ... and you're just hanging out and maybe one of them doesn't like Cowboy and, you know, and someone talks trash and it's private and no one hears it, that's fine and good.

Josh Thomson 14:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 14:56 But when you wanna do that publicly and you wanna broadcast that and then also do it on ESPN, I think it's just, it's just shortsighted and I think it's foolish.

Josh Thomson 15:04 Yeah, I'm gonna go a little bit more hard in the paint on guys like DC, who are on my post right there, the one that we use-

Joe Rogan 15:09 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 15:09 ... defending him right now. That's what he's do-

Joe Rogan 15:11 Is he defending him?

Josh Thomson 15:12 He's defending, well, hey man, he's trying to learn this sport. He's trying-

Joe Rogan 15:15 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 15:15 I said, "D, quit trying to tow the company line, son."

Joe Rogan 15:18 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 15:18 That's what you're doing right now. And then, and then I got Kendall Grove that goes on there, too, saying, "Oh, you know what? I can respect the fact that he's trying to learn it." Look at, this is what he says right here.

Joe Rogan 15:27 "I think it's fine he's trying to better understand our sport. It means he's a massive star who can talk from his perch and no one can touch him, yet he chooses to try and learn the game, so there's some weight to his opinion. You're a little off base, champ."

Josh Thomson 15:38 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:40 Oh. DC's a wonderful person.

Josh Thomson 15:41 Dude. Oh, he's just strung out. I said, I told him, I said, "Look, just because Stephen A. Smith might be good for business and the ESPN business for you later on," I said, "That doesn't mean you gotta tow that line, buddy."

Joe Rogan 15:52 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 15:52 I like to give him a hard time. But look, DC's one of my best friends, man, and he's absolutely hilarious and just fun. He likes to do this to stir the pot, because like you were just saying with Stephen A, he likes to do this type of stuff-

Joe Rogan 16:03 Yes.

Josh Thomson 16:03 ... so keep, people keep talking.

Joe Rogan 16:04 Yes.

Josh Thomson 16:04 DC likes to chime in on shit like this.

Joe Rogan 16:07 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 16:07 So w- like, so we're here right now-

Joe Rogan 16:09 Yes.

Josh Thomson 16:09 ... talking about DC and this whole situation.

Joe Rogan 16:11 Yes.

Josh Thomson 16:11 That's exactly what DC does. He's brilliant when it comes to this type of stuff.

Joe Rogan 16:14 Yeah. And I t- I'm sure he really does love Stephen A. as a person.

Josh Thomson 16:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:18 Stephen A.'s a, he's a nice guy. Like I said, I've met him a couple times.

Josh Thomson 16:21 Yep.

Joe Rogan 16:21 He's a nice guy. But just so, like, there's a, there's a style of broadcasting that sports radio and sports broadcasting that they do this kinda stuff.

Josh Thomson 16:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:29 But it, when it leaks over into fighting, fighting is just not a spor- like you can call it a sport-

Josh Thomson 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 16:34 ... it's kind of a sport, but it's, it's sport in its highest sense of expression, where it's, you're literally using your body to try to stop another man's body.

Josh Thomson 16:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:45 And it is as intense as it gets, and I think it deserves more respect. That's just my opinion. That's how I've always treated it. That's how I've alw- when I, when I talk about fighters or w- my, my concentration has always been to elevate. My concentration's never been to demean someone unless there's something that they did that's illegal, and through some sort of, sort of blatant foul that should be stopped or something that's really dangerous that they're doing that should be chastised. But the, the sport is, it's just, it's, it's a higher level of, of consequence and risk and ev- and it needs to be respected that way.

Josh Thomson 17:19 Yeah. I feel, um, so I got a l- I, I listen to your show quite a bit and I, I like a lot of what you had talked about before when you first got into comedy about talking about, um, how some of the other comics was like kinda shit on other young comics that were kinda up and coming. And when you came in, it was like a different, you try to just ingrain in people, like, "Hey, I wanna build you, all, all of you guys up that are with me on the same set. If we're doing the show and we're all on the same night, let's all just fucking make each other look good." I feel like especially in fighting, whether it's boxing, MMA, anything along those lines, we gotta be elevating each other to make each other better.

Joe Rogan 17:51 Yes.

Josh Thomson 17:51 Like, "Hey, this guy is good, this guy is good," without talking shit, 'cause we, like yourself specifically, as well as like even, uh, myself and other guys that have shows and podcasts and start talking, we're on a pla- on a different level of platform that can really kinda either make or break some people's careers.

Joe Rogan 18:07 Yes.

Josh Thomson 18:07 It als-... with, also, uh, the sport is confidence. Okay? MMA is, uh, a confident level. Anytime you do wrestling, it's a one-on-one combative sport, anytime wrestling, MMA, d- confidence is key. If my confidence is low, then that means that I'm not, probably not gonna perform my best. And the, when you take a loss, it goes lower and lower. When you gotta hear it from fucking people that don't know the business-

Joe Rogan 18:29 Yes.

Josh Thomson 18:29 ... like this right here, it's just another thing added on. And for other MMA guys to shit on other MMA guys, all that does is tear them down even more. And you could potentially, I'm not saying ruin their career, but you're, you're not helping them get to their goals and their levels. It's better if everyone shines, and we all handle ourselves with class and respect. And I feel like we just, in general, need to ho- hold ourselves to a higher standard if we're talking MMA, and making sure that we showcase this guy as really good. Like here, I'll give you an example. All I do when I talk about Frank Yeager is talk about how such an amazing pers- Even when he has a bad performance, he's still one of the best to ever do the game, and all the things that he's done from the p- before in the past. I say the same thing about BJ Penn. Somebody who, look, he exploded on the scene. I was training with him when he had that, that first run through Din Thomas, Uno, all those guys. He was training at AKA. All the things that happen now, to me, those are just bumps in the road as fighters get older, you know, and they just don't know how to react. Like, "This is it. I don't know what's going on." Like, they, they need somebody to step in, not shit on them. They need someone to step in, and, and talk to them. I text and talk to him all the time. It's like, "Hey, man. This, it might be time to move on, it might not." M- whatever the deal is. But they're good people at heart, and I know them personally. And we should just be talking in general about lifting these guys up to the next level. And that's the way I think every sport should handle it.

Joe Rogan 19:49 The argument against that would be the massive success that Conor's had shitting on people in press conferences, and shitting on people in leading up to a fight-

Josh Thomson 19:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:57 ... and the fact that that's built up so much animosity, but also so much attention. Like the Aldo fight. Dude, that, he made that fight by talking so much shit.

Josh Thomson 20:05 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:05 It was, it's a big part of why that fight was so successful. And it was also like some serious psychological warfare.

Josh Thomson 20:11 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:11 When Aldo went into that cage with Conor, you could see the weight of all that shit talking was weighing heavy on him.

Josh Thomson 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:17 You could see it. It was like, he, uh, he probably hadn't slept, you know? He's probably really fucked up by that, emotionally, because Aldo was super respected. He was the fucking king. He was the guy that had torn through the featherweight division for years, and he had beaten everybody. Beaten the best of the best, and re- widely regarded as the greatest featherweight of all time. And then all of a sudden, Conor's just shitting on him-

Josh Thomson 20:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 20:38 ... and shitting on him, and shitting on him. Tearing his picture apart, stealing his belt at press conferences, and all that craziness. It made the fight way bigger, but it also fucked with Jose physically and emotionally. So, when they actually fought, he had a diminished performance. He was, he was too emotional, he lost his composure, he rushed forward. He tried to-

Josh Thomson 20:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:57 ... you know, he tried to hit him before everything was set up, and he got cracked for it.

Josh Thomson 21:01 Yeah, I understand what you're saying in, in those terms. But look, when you're promoting a fight, promoting a fight to me is, is a separate thing.

Joe Rogan 21:07 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 21:07 Though I think Conor overstepped the boundary when he talked about Khabib-

Joe Rogan 21:10 Yes.

Josh Thomson 21:10 ... and all the other family stuff, especially when he posted the picture with his wife. That, to me, is we are over the... Like, I understand, like Chael's done it a couple times when he talked about Jenna Jameson and Tito and that whole situation. Like, there's moments I think where guys have stepped over the line. But if I'm talking shit to you, taking your belt and doing those things, look, I'm marketing the fight.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Right.

Josh Thomson 21:29 That's a separate issue than doing what some guys do.

Joe Rogan 21:32 And if you get a percentage of the pay-per-view, it actually benefits you when that guy shits on you, which is even more disturbing.

Josh Thomson 21:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:38 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 21:38 (laughs) But the, but the other thing as well is that, look, always, whether win or lose, I, Conor's never shown a disrespect after. I, I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that afterwards as far as like in the cage, when they see him, "Hey, great fight." Even when he lost to Nate the first time, he was very respectful.

Joe Rogan 21:54 Yes.

Josh Thomson 21:54 Very respectful. And I think, look, there's a difference between marketing the fight and then you realize when the fight's done, shaking hands, being like, "Okay, look, let's do it again." And I, that, that to me is, that's a, that's a fighter's mentality. I want another crack at you. Whether I won or I lost, I want another crack at you. It's okay to market the fight, but once the fight is done, shake your hand. That's, that's what this is, that's what this sport is about. That's what fighting is about. That's what it's always been about. You know, from back in the days when guys would just-

Joe Rogan 22:19 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 22:19 ... put up their dukes. I mean, that, that was, we fight each other, okay? Help you up off the ground.

Joe Rogan 22:23 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 22:23 Shake your hand and, and move on.

Joe Rogan 22:25 Well, people like that about it. It's one of the things... Do you remember when Ronda Rousey beat Miesha Tate, and she wouldn't shake her hand after the fight?

Josh Thomson 22:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 22:31 And the fucking boos were so crazy. I was interviewing her after the fight. You could barely hear her talk.

Josh Thomson 22:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:37 It was just, "Boo." People didn't like it.

Josh Thomson 22:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:40 They didn't like it at all.

Josh Thomson 22:42 Yeah. No, that, that's, that's... You're gonna always get that, I think, when there's disres- blatant disregard-

Joe Rogan 22:47 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 22:47 ... or disrespect for somebody, especially of that caliber, like Miesha Tate.

Joe Rogan 22:51 And after the fight's over.

Josh Thomson 22:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:52 Like, what people wanna see is that it's resolved. They don't wanna see these crazy endless wars-

Josh Thomson 22:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:57 ... where you, you're never happy. You just arm barred, you fucked her arm up-

Josh Thomson 23:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:01 ... and you're still upset?

Josh Thomson 23:02 Yeah, we got plenty of endless wars at where I was like, (laughs) -

Joe Rogan 23:04 We don't need that shit in the cage.

Josh Thomson 23:05 Exactly. Exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:07 We're good. (laughs)

Josh Thomson 23:07 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:07 Exactly. Man, when, when you see Conor at 170, you know, obviously he beat Donald really handily, but do you think he's a legit 170?

Josh Thomson 23:15 No. I don't think so, 'cause, um, l- uh, we, we saw with Khabib. Khabib could potentially be a legit 170, but even s- him, he'll be a little bit too small.

Joe Rogan 23:23 For guys like Usman?

Josh Thomson 23:24 Yeah, guys like Usman. Now, I think he could, I think he could out-wrestle Usman. He can out-wrestle Colby K-... I think he can out-wrestle-

Joe Rogan 23:29 He can? You think so?

Josh Thomson 23:30 100%.

Joe Rogan 23:30 Really?

Josh Thomson 23:31 I've seen him-

Joe Rogan 23:31 Wow.

Josh Thomson 23:31 ... wrestle with DC. I've seen him wrestle with Olympic caliber wrestlers in our, in our, in our room. I'm telling you right now, yes.

Joe Rogan 23:37 Did he train with Jordan Burroughs at your place?

Josh Thomson 23:39 Uh, I didn't see him train with Jordan, but I, I heard Jordan was com- had came through.

Joe Rogan 23:43 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 23:43 But I wasn't sure if they, I wasn't there during that time when he trained.

Joe Rogan 23:45 Well, I would like to be a fly on the wall to watch-

Josh Thomson 23:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:47 ... those two guys go at it.

Josh Thomson 23:48 But I can tell you this, he trained with Ed Ruth.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Yeah? How was that?

Josh Thomson 23:51 And it was, um... What it was, what... Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:56 Really?

Josh Thomson 23:56 It w- uh, like, yeah. I mean-

Joe Rogan 23:57 You don't wanna-

Josh Thomson 23:58 Look-

Joe Rogan 23:58 ... say anything, but-

Josh Thomson 23:58 No, but there was moments though, where, you know, Ed was able to get some stuff on him, but then he was able to get some stuff on Ed as well. And Ed was able to get the ta- or Khabib was able to get the take downs as well on a three-time NC2A national champ.

Joe Rogan 24:09 Wow.

Josh Thomson 24:09 And you could tell... Look, Khabib's had more experience in terms of, uh, MMA.... you know, like, sambo was basically just MMA with a gi top on and, you know-

Joe Rogan 24:19 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 24:19 ... occ- occasionally wear shinguards. With Ed, Ed was relatively new into the sport when they first started training and Ed was able to do s- a lot of good things to him and Khabib was able to do a lot of good things to him. Without saying too much, both of them definitely benefit from their training together and that's what's great about our gym is that there's no... It's not a pissing match in our gym. Like, sure, guys wanna one-up each other when it comes to sparring, but, um, I- I would say that Ed, he got the better of learning the most from that situation-

Joe Rogan 24:47 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 24:47 ... whereas Khabib realized that his stuff works on the top caliber guys in the world.

Joe Rogan 24:52 Well, you guys have at AKA-

Josh Thomson 24:53 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 24:53 ... you guys have one of the most, uh, top he- like, wrestling heavy-

Josh Thomson 24:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:57 ... in terms of, like, high-level wrestling. Like, you have one of the most concentrated camps.

Josh Thomson 25:02 Yeah, what people need to remember is that that camp was ran by Crazy Bob Cook and, Javier first, Javier, Crazy Bob Cook, but then also when they linked up with... when Bob Cook linked up with Zinken Entertainment and Zinken... And the Zinken family is very into wrestling. All three brothers were, uh, All-Americans at Fresno State, wrestled with Lorenzo Neil, who's a professional football player in the NFL but also wrestled at Fresno State, also an All-American. Those guys all linked up and they're big, big into wrestling. So what they've done, like, I could literally could tell you this, is he would... The three brothers would, if I brought up to a wrestler right now that I'd, I'd never heard of, you probably never heard of, they could tell you all their stats. They could tell you what they did in high school, they could tell you what they did in college, they could tell you wh- how far they potentially will go in the Olympics.

Joe Rogan 25:45 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 25:45 You know what I mean? Like, that's how much ingrained that they are into this. So a lot of the reasons why we've ge- we've gotten, you know, guys like Ed Ruth, Aaron Pico was signed with them when he first started his career, um, DC, you know, Deron Winn, all these guys that have come, they've all, they've all come through because of Duane Zinken.

Joe Rogan 26:01 Aaron Pico is a crazy case, right? It's-

Josh Thomson 26:04 (clears throat)

Joe Rogan 26:04 He's such a talented guy and he's still very young-

Josh Thomson 26:08 Yes.

Joe Rogan 26:09 ... but there was so much hype on that kid right out of the gate, and they put him in against real tough competition right out of the gate.

Josh Thomson 26:16 Yeah, look, he had to fi- he had to fight tough competition right out of the gate. There's a couple things. What people need to understand is this, is if I'm gonna pay you this amount of money-

Joe Rogan 26:24 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 26:24 ... because there's so much hype around you, then you're gonna have to fight this level of guy.

Joe Rogan 26:27 Right.

Josh Thomson 26:28 Okay? Now the problem with what happened with him, he's not a 55-pounder, he's tiny. So he b- he could potentially make 35.

Joe Rogan 26:35 Really?

Josh Thomson 26:36 Yeah. He's not a big guy. So that's what people keep forgetting. So when they... when he wanted to stay at 55, we said, "Okay, we'll give it a go. Let him get one or two fights, you know, in that position." But no one wanted to fight him. No one. Li- we were calling some of the best guys in Bellator, you know, at the time. They're like, "No, let's... We wanna see a couple fights of his first before we go, you know, throwing our s- our names out there to fight this guy."

Joe Rogan 26:58 Really?

Josh Thomson 26:58 "We'll see how he is." You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 26:59 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 27:00 And so when that happened... And I'm not knocking them. I mean, that's smart on their part. I mean every-

Joe Rogan 27:03 Right.

Josh Thomson 27:04 ... every top guy's gonna be like, "Yeah, let's see what he is first and then we'll figure it out." But then as soon as he lost to Zach Freeman, who was tall, long, lengthy, f- you know, good, decent submissions, not, not a world-beater, not a world-beater, but he was good. Aaron got exposed in the first fight, got clipped, then f- jumped in on a double leg, got guillotined, was out. Okay? Then he decided to make the loop down to, to 145. Had a couple good performance. He's got big dogs. He's got big dogs in his hands. He's got heavy hands, but he's a boxing base with wrestling background, which works if you've already been around guys that have been... done plenty of kickboxing. If you're just a boxing base, kicks come from angles you're not used to.

Joe Rogan 27:40 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 27:41 Like, different from punches.

Joe Rogan 27:42 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 27:42 And so he just needed to get to a camp and stay focused on one area with one or two coaches that would groom him into that. And now that he's at Jackson Wink, I think it's perfect for him because he's there with good, really, really good grapplers and really, really good g- guys. And so with, with Jackson there grooming him and f- and telling him how the game plan... Jackson's one of the best at game planning. I mean, you can't deny that.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 28:05 And the fact is, is that he just needed someone to get in there. Now, I do know, like, he had a couple little issues, like, obviously he didn't... Like, he really didn't go to high school, I mean, like, as far as he... was just traveling around and trying to become the best wrestler in the world. I mean, at a young age, he's, you know, he's, he's winning everything. And that's-

Joe Rogan 28:21 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 28:22 It's hard when you take someone from school, put them into that type of thing, and they have success and they think they're gonna continue to have success on a world-class level, like, like, you know, in any sport. And, um, and h- he, since he had such s- success at a young age, his dad and his family got really involved into doing that and, and pushing him in that direction. And that's not always the best scenario and situation. I think sometimes you need to have management, uh, and trainers guide you when you're talking about a sport that other people have no idea what's going on.

Joe Rogan 28:55 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 28:55 It doesn't work that way. You know? Like, if people think, like, oh... I, I think family members... And I hear this all the time and I can speak from experience, my family sometimes comes in and says, "Yeah, how come, you know, you don't make what Conor McGregor's making?" It's not the same.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Josh Thomson 29:08 I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"

Joe Rogan 29:10 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 29:10 Like, you know, like, those are... It's not the same, you know what I mean? And so-

Joe Rogan 29:13 You don't have to explain the entire business to them.

Josh Thomson 29:15 ... I don't... Yeah, I don't... Yeah, I'd have to explain everything. And so when you have someone like Pico's parent... uh, his dad and his, you know, his brother I think were kinda helping with management and trying to get sponsors and do this and th- They were expecting people to, like, to tow- you know, to bend over and be like, "Hey, you know," like, "Yeah, this is Aaron Pico," and this and that, because he's had such success at a young age and how good and talented he was in the gym. But like Alvin Emerson said, "Man, we talking about practice?" It doesn't... It's not the same thing.

Joe Rogan 29:39 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 29:39 You know? And he's... Sure, he's great, but when the lights turn on and the fight happens and we're sparring in little gloves, not 16-ounce gloves, okay, it changes. The dynamic of the game changes.

Joe Rogan 29:50 And you also ha- have to take into consideration that, yeah, he's had a tremendous amount of success in wrestling, and yes, he's got very good hands, but he has a small amount of MMA fights.

Josh Thomson 29:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:59 And this is MMA. And, uh, that's the, the difference. There is a difference. And he's also a really young guy who's experienced some pretty high highs and pretty low lows very quickly. I think guys need to be managed better. And what I mean by that is, I mean, the same way boxing handles it. Boxing, you see guys get to 15, 16-0. When you see a guy like Khabib, who's 28-0, you go, "How the fuck? No one gets there."

Josh Thomson 30:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:22 You got Jon Jones who's w- uh, essentially undefeated.

Josh Thomson 30:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:25 You know, the, the Matt Hamill fight-

Josh Thomson 30:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:26 ... in my mind he, he won that fight.

Josh Thomson 30:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 30:28 He cr- he crushed him.

Josh Thomson 30:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:29 I mean, there was never n- a moment in that fight where he was in doubt. He just got disqualified. But... And I don't even agree with the disqualification. But he's a rarity. It's him and it's Khabib and may- maybe there's a f- couple other guys-

Josh Thomson 30:41 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:41 ... that are, like, elite high-level guys that are undefeated.

Josh Thomson 30:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:44 They're the outliers. Most guys...... m- get thrown to the wolves, like, really quickly. But in boxing, you see that all the time 'cause managers slowly groom their fighters. They go, "Okay, Josh. You know what, Josh? You're a fucking great puncher but, you know, your- your- your inside game maybe should be tested. We got this tough Mexican dude who likes to fight inside, so we're gonna match you up with him. You should beat him, but it's gonna give you some seasoning." And they'll move you along that way.

Josh Thomson 31:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:11 "Okay, we're gonna try you against a long, lanky striker. Sometimes you have problems with the jab and this guy has got a significant reach advantage." Let's see, and then boxers- the boxing managers and coaches, they'll think about this shit for, uh, days and weeks before they commit to a fight. Whereas in the UFC, the UFC calls you up. "Hey, you wanna fight Khabib on three days notice?" You're like, "What?" And then all of a sudden, you're there.

Josh Thomson 31:34 Well, because boxing managers are usually in cahoots with the promoter.

Joe Rogan 31:38 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 31:38 So the two of them work together. That's not the case-

Joe Rogan 31:40 Right.

Josh Thomson 31:40 ... with any promotion in MMA. Like, the- the mana- the promoter is the promoter, and the manager is the manager. And you take what we give you, and if you don't, then okay, we'll put you on the shelf for six months.

Joe Rogan 31:50 Yup.

Josh Thomson 31:50 'Kay, 'cause that's- that- those type of things have been presented to me a couple times, you know. And, uh, w- Joe was the- the manager at the ti- or the, uh, trying to match make me when I was supposed to fight, uh, Anthony Pettis for the title. And he called and said, "Hey, Pettis is out." He's like, "Yeah, we want you to fight some tough Russian guy," uh, you know, that I've never heard of. And I was like, "I just knocked out Nate. I'm not g-" And I was supposed to fight for the title. I'm not gonna fight some tough Russian (laughs) guy from Dagestan I've never heard of. No, thanks.

Joe Rogan 32:15 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 32:15 He's like, "Fine, I'm gonna shelf you for six months." And I just told him, I said, "Hey, man, I'm pretty good with my money. I'll wait." So he just said okay, so the week later, I got the Benson fight. You know?

Joe Rogan 32:23 That's such a fucked up thing to even say to someone.

Josh Thomson 32:25 It is.

Joe Rogan 32:25 "I'm gonna shelf you."

Josh Thomson 32:26 Yeah, it is though.

Joe Rogan 32:27 Ugh.

Josh Thomson 32:27 But, you know, in reality though, like, look, uh, here's the thing. And I will say this, and I will stick up for Joe, even though I just said that. I will stick up for Joe Silva. I met with him shortly after that, and he's like, "Look at my phone. You see this? This is your division." He's like, "You see all these? These are all fighters in the division." He's like, "You see the ones at the top that you wanted to fight? Yeah, all those guys in red? They're hurt." He only had two people to choose from. So, and those two people were already matched up against each other, so what do you do?

Joe Rogan 32:54 But they're- but that's the- the thing. Like, do you just take a fight because you wanna keep fighting? But how- how does it move your career when you are literally one shot away from-

Josh Thomson 33:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:02 ... the title? Because when you knocked out Nate Diaz, first of all, you were the first guy to do it, you did it-

Josh Thomson 33:07 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:07 ... spectacularly with a head kick. A lot of people forget that for some reason. People keep saying-

Josh Thomson 33:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:11 ... he's never been stopped. I'm like-

Josh Thomson 33:12 It's all right.

Joe Rogan 33:12 ... go back and watch the tape.

Josh Thomson 33:13 I like that you stick up for me. I appreciate that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:16 Always.

Josh Thomson 33:16 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 33:16 Always. But so you're in this crazy position where you're really knocking on the door for a title.

Josh Thomson 33:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:22 And then they're saying, "Go fight some savage from the fucking mountains."

Josh Thomson 33:26 Yeah. (laughs) It was (laughs) - it was really good though.

Joe Rogan 33:27 Well, they're all g- the fucking Dagestanians-

Josh Thomson 33:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:29 ... they are the scariest fucking humans on the planet.

Josh Thomson 33:32 Well-

Joe Rogan 33:32 It's amazing how many tough guys come from that part of the country or-

Josh Thomson 33:34 They've-

Joe Rogan 33:35 ... the world.

Josh Thomson 33:35 They've exploded on the scene, and I think it's amazing to- to see them grow. And I think, um, I've seen m- you know, when he first came in, when Khabib first came into AKA, I was like, "Well, he's tough. He's just a wrestler, you know, not a lot," you know. But he still had some submission defense, good leg locks, good... He was physically strong then. L- um, he's just g- he's just gained a lot more confidence now with anything in the gym. Doesn't matter what it is. Like I said, w- I've seen him wrestle with DC. I've seen him wrestle with Luke Rockhold. I've seen him wrestle obviously with myself. We've wrestled tons of times, guys like Gray Made and all those guys, you know? And he's phenomenal, like a- when people ask me when you said something about him, uh, who were you saying? For hi-

Joe Rogan 34:11 We're talking about him at light- oh, you were talking about with Joe Enose or Ed Wood.

Josh Thomson 34:14 Oh, yeah, him, yeah, with hi- no, no, no, him with, uh, Usman and those-

Joe Rogan 34:16 Yes.

Josh Thomson 34:17 I think he out-wrestles those guys.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Wow, that's amazing.

Josh Thomson 34:18 I think he out-wrestles them. Yeah, I, 100% I think he out-wrestles them. The guy that I thought he woulda had a hard time out-wrestling woulda been Ben Askren. That woulda been his guy.

Joe Rogan 34:25 Wow.

Josh Thomson 34:25 I think that guy right there woulda been the only guy that I think coulda potentially out-wrestled him.

Joe Rogan 34:29 Ben is hurting now, man. You can see how he walks.

Josh Thomson 34:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:31 Like, he- you can see his hip all fucked up.

Josh Thomson 34:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:33 He needs a hip replacement.

Josh Thomson 34:35 Yeah, he needs to get it done. I mean, like, e- well, he- that's the thing, and-

Joe Rogan 34:38 But if he does, he's never gonna fight again.

Josh Thomson 34:40 Why, he's done. I think, isn't he done? I think-

Joe Rogan 34:42 I think he's- he's done because of the hip.

Josh Thomson 34:44 Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the recovery process. Is it a hi- is it a hip replacement?

Joe Rogan 34:48 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 34:48 Or is it just-

Joe Rogan 34:49 Yeah, he needs a hip replacement.

Josh Thomson 34:49 ... let's scope it all out, clean it out and see how it goes and then-

Joe Rogan 34:52 No.

Josh Thomson 34:52 ... see if he needs a hip replacement after. I-

Joe Rogan 34:54 No, he and I discussed it. It's- it's a mess.

Josh Thomson 34:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:56 Yeah, there's a lot of these guys, they're so tough, they're almost too tough for their own good. And they're training on injuries and just pushing through the pain, and they're-

Josh Thomson 35:03 Oh.

Joe Rogan 35:03 ... just chewing up the cartilage and tearing up the labrum and-

Josh Thomson 35:07 Yup.

Joe Rogan 35:07 ... you know?

Josh Thomson 35:07 And- and I wanna, and- and here's the thing, like, to go back to the Joe Silva thing, but then a lot of it is because conversations like that.

Joe Rogan 35:13 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 35:13 It's the conversation of like, "Well, fine, we're just gonna shelf you." Well, these guys, when they- when they get a call for a title or they get a call for a- a fight, like, on the main card or, you know, uh, they're- that's- their- their families are starving or they're hungry. People think that everyone's making Conor McGregor money. My own family thought I was making Conor McGregor. Like, "Well, how come you're not making that money?" "Oh yeah," and I'm like, "You guys," sh- I almost wanna say, "Shut the f-" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:35 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 35:35 "Shut up! I don't wanna hear it!" I've been getting punched in the face for 20 years. I don't wanna hear this shit right now.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Yeah, someone's gotta gut and a beer.

Josh Thomson 35:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:41 "Hey, Josh, how come you're not making any more money?"

Josh Thomson 35:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:44 "Oh."

Josh Thomson 35:44 Yeah, it's- it's the game, man.

Joe Rogan 35:45 "I j- I never thought about it." (laughs)

Josh Thomson 35:47 Yeah. (laughs) You know, maybe next time I talk to- talk to these guys, I'm gonna tell them.

Joe Rogan 35:51 I wanna definitely tell them to give me that Conor McGregor money.

Josh Thomson 35:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:53 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 35:54 Um, you know, well, look, the- what I wanted to talk to you about was like you had a- you and Brendan had a talk in conversation about guys like Lima and other guys having, you know, competition with top guys.

Joe Rogan 36:04 I think Lima's a top guy. I think Michael Chandler's a top guy. I think Bellator has several guys that could compete with anybody in the world.

Josh Thomson 36:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:12 And I think the same thing about ONE FC. I still maintain to this day Mighty Mouse is probably the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet.

Josh Thomson 36:18 Probably, yes.

Joe Rogan 36:19 He- you mean, Jon Jones has faced stiffer competition because there's stiffer competition in the light heavyweight division. But the way Mighty Mouse was running through the division, the way Mighty Mouse would just d- not get hit.

Josh Thomson 36:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:29 The- the expression of martial arts, in my opinion, when I watched him, I'd have never seen anybody more impressive.

Josh Thomson 36:35 So what's your take on them- him being traded then?

Joe Rogan 36:38 I think they offered him a tremendous amount of money at ONE. And the flyweight division has never been a moneymaker for the UFC.

Josh Thomson 36:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:46 And Henry Cejudo beat him in a very close decision, and I think they just w- came to a position where Mighty Mouse was like, "Look, I'm not gonna make as much money in the next fight because I lost, but ONE FC's gonna pay me X amount of times more than that."

Josh Thomson 37:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 37:01 And they're giving ... They gave him a huge contract, man. You know?

Josh Thomson 37:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:05 And they, they ha- ... Look, Chatri's amazing in what they're, they're doing over at ONE FC. I think it's great for everybody. I think it's great-

Josh Thomson 37:13 Yep.

Joe Rogan 37:13 ... for the sport. I think it's great that the athletes have options. I think the competition is great for the UFC. When you see someone rise and someone start smashing people over there and everybody goes, "Hey, that guy might be the best 170-pounder in the world," that's good for everybody-

Josh Thomson 37:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:26 ... because then you could f- set up potentially like a cross-promotional fight if some- someone's that big. And we get to find out. We get to find out who's the number one in the world. That's what it's supposed to be all about. And the more competition there is, the more big organizations there are and the more places that athletes go, it's way better for the fighters.

Josh Thomson 37:43 Yeah. No-

Joe Rogan 37:43 And that, that has to be taken into consideration.

Josh Thomson 37:45 Yeah, I ... So I worked for ONE for a while and, uh, I work for Bellator now, but I was doing cage side commentary for them. And I, um, I called a couple of Timofey Nastyukin's fights, the guy that knocked out.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Dude, he's a fucking monster.

Josh Thomson 37:56 So if you were ... And like i- (laughs) I told Jamie, oh, I said before you came, I said, "I'm gonna call on you a couple times." (laughs) I said so, started laughing.

Joe Rogan 38:02 When he stopped Alvarez, I was like, "That guy is a fucking killer."

Josh Thomson 38:05 He's got dogs in his hands.

Joe Rogan 38:07 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 38:07 And I'm telling you right now, he either loses by submission in the first round or he knocks you out in the first round. I wanna say up until like his 10th fight or ninth fight or something like that, he'd never gone outside the first round. He either knocked you out or he lost, and he was ... His record at the time was nine or 10-1 when I was calling his fights. He had only had one loss and I think he had lost by knockout. But he's got heavy dogs, got good hips and takedown defense.

Joe Rogan 38:27 Yeah, there he is. And, and-

Josh Thomson 38:28 The kid's phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 38:29 ... his technique an- and he's, he's just fucking rock solid.

Josh Thomson 38:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:33 Uh, rock solid everywhere. Fucking super savage in his, in his approach. That guy is ... He's elite, man. I mean, he's elite in terms of, you know, he could fight anybody in the world that's-

Josh Thomson 38:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:44 ... his size.

Josh Thomson 38:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:45 I really beli- ... Like that guy is a fucking animal, man. For him to beat down Eddie Alvarez like that. You're talking about Eddie Alvarez, a guy who's like one- notoriously one of the toughest fucking guys in the sport, period. And that was a real wake up call for a lot of people. There's-

Josh Thomson 38:59 Yep.

Joe Rogan 38:59 ... some, some guys over there, just 'cause you don't know their name, doesn't mean ... Like, look, when fucking Zabik came over here-

Josh Thomson 39:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:04 ... people didn't know his name and then they see that guy fight, uh, you're like, "What the fuck? Where'd you come from?"

Josh Thomson 39:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:10 360 roundhouse kicks and crazy fucking scissor sweeps and taking people down, submitting them, head kicking them-

Josh Thomson 39:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:16 ... doing everything. There's hundreds of guys like that out there.

Josh Thomson 39:20 They're everywhere.

Joe Rogan 39:20 They're everywhere.

Josh Thomson 39:21 They're every-

Joe Rogan 39:21 They're every-

Josh Thomson 39:21 And that's the other thing is they're not just in Dagestan. Sure, I think right now that's a market that needs to be tapped into across for every promotion, but they're also, they're also in Asia somewhere, they're also in other countries-

Joe Rogan 39:31 Yes.

Josh Thomson 39:31 ... everywhere else. Like, um, you know, I do know that there's, there's a lot of top talented guys, like in, in Sweden and Switzerland that just never get to play because there's, there's not, there's not a MMA market there really.

Joe Rogan 39:41 Yes.

Josh Thomson 39:41 But they're great jujitsu guys, there's good MMA gyms out of all these places, especially in Italy and all those other places we're seeing talent come. And, um, when you ... When I saw, when I heard that he was fighting, when I heard Eddie was fighting Nastyukin, I was like-

Joe Rogan 39:54 Ooh.

Josh Thomson 39:55 ... "Oh, shit." I said either, either Eddie's gonna be able to ... If Eddie's able to get him down and get on top, 'cause he does tend to fade a little bit, Du- Nastyukin as the ... It gets into the second and third round. But if he can't get him down in that first round, I say he's gonna get knocked out. 100 be- ... 'Cause Eddie's got ... I love Eddie, but he's always ... He got a little chinny at some points, not to the point where he gets knocked out but, you know, he's always been rocked, comes back and then f- fucks people up.

Joe Rogan 40:17 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 40:18 But this is a guy that I'd seen him just starch guys. I mean, uh, he fought this guy, God, what was his name? Something Fualong and th- there was talk and conversation about this guy was gonna, you know, knock out Timofey and, I mean, I, I don't think ... I, I ... It was almost like an Alistair Overeem kno- type knockout, you know, when, uh, Ngannou snapped his head back.

Joe Rogan 40:36 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 40:36 I was like, "Oh God." He was out cold. And so when I see guys like him and like ... And there's other guys that, you know, that are in the m- that are in these organizations all around, like to me, Patricio Pitbull is probably the best 145-pounder in the world. And I'm a big Max Holloway fan, but I've talked about this before with, with Big John is that styles make match-ups. And Big John has talked to me about that being in the cage calling or, uh, refereeing, uh, Max's fights and, and, uh, he said Volkanovski will give him problems. And sure enough, Volk- Volkanovski gave him problems. He said, "That will let me know how good Patricio Pitbull would do against Max Holloway." The speed, the wrestling, the power, all those things Patricio has, and p- c- ... And to me, Patricio is better than Volkanovski just from what I can see, not from the Max fight but from the lead up to all the fights. So I take guys like Lima and I take guys like Patricio who knocked out Michael Chandler at 155 pounds, I take those guys and I'll put those guys against not just UFC guys, ONE guys, all these guys, all day long. These guys are nasty and they're tough.

Joe Rogan 41:42 W- who is this right here, Jim?

Josh Thomson 41:43 This is Patricio Pitbull.

Joe Rogan 41:44 Oh, it's P- Patricio. He's hooking somebody.

Josh Thomson 41:44 So there's Patriki, which is the older brother at 155.

Joe Rogan 41:47 Right.

Josh Thomson 41:47 And then there's Patricio who's at 145 and he's also now the 155-pound champ.

Joe Rogan 41:51 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 41:52 But to me, look, to me, he, he now, like when I'm ta- ... Like when you're talking about Henry Cejudo, guys attach themselves to guys because they can make themselves better. I'm not gonna go train and, and stake my claim with someone unless I know that the two of us are making each other better. That's his main training partner, Henry Cejudo's.

Joe Rogan 42:08 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 42:08 And that's ... Henry Cejudo's his main training part- partner. Juan Archuleta was on like a 19-fight win streak and then faced him. Juan Archuleta didn't look like the same Juan Archuleta when he got in there. And when guys are that good, at that next level, that's what happens. They make somebody look like they don't belong in there and that's what happened. And I was like, "Man," 'cause people keep giving MVP a ton of shit.And I'm like, "Dude, this guy's that good." Stephen Thompson in the beginning wasn't getting any respect either, and look at him. Like, he's got, they've got that style of like, "Oh, I could get him down, I could take him down, I could do this." But guys are so good at their one craft that, man, you just can't get to them and they make these guys look like that.

Joe Rogan 42:47 Yeah, no, listen, I'm with you on this. And I disagreed with Brendan. Brendan thinks if you're not in the UFC, you're not shit. And I don't, I don't think that's true. I think-

Josh Thomson 42:54 I, why did he get... Well, well, I wanna know why.

Joe Rogan 42:55 He's-

Josh Thomson 42:56 Why, why?

Joe Rogan 42:56 He's got a little Stephen A. Smith in him.

Josh Thomson 42:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:59 Just a touch.

Josh Thomson 43:00 I love Brendan, man.

Joe Rogan 43:01 Just a, just a pin- just a sprinkle.

Josh Thomson 43:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:02 Look, he's one of my best friends.

Josh Thomson 43:03 I just saw him last week in San Jose.

Joe Rogan 43:04 I love him to death.

Josh Thomson 43:04 I went to his show.

Joe Rogan 43:05 I love him to death. But he likes to talk crazy shit too, but he also believes what he's saying. He really does, he believes what he's saying. I disagree. I mean, the Michael Venom Page thing is a perfect example. He's so good that Paul Daley turned into a fucking wrestler.

Josh Thomson 43:16 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:17 Right? How crazy is that?

Josh Thomson 43:18 I wanna tell you a story on that real quick. He goes-

Joe Rogan 43:20 Paul Daley murks people now.

Josh Thomson 43:21 Paul Daley turned to some of the guys at, at Bellator and go, "Hey, man, I just wanna apologize." Before he walked out, "I just wanna apologize, it's gonna be a boring fight." (laughs) He straight up said that.

Joe Rogan 43:30 He said that? Really?

Josh Thomson 43:31 He straight up, like, "Hey-"

Joe Rogan 43:32 Wow.

Josh Thomson 43:32 "... I just wanna apologize, this is gonna be a boring fight." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 43:35 Wow. That's cra-... But look, if you watch how well Michael Venom Page moved in that fight, you almost understand it, 'cause Paul with that traditional-

Josh Thomson 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:45 ... Thai style. Look, Paul knocked out Lorenz Larkin, okay?

Josh Thomson 43:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:48 And Lorenz Larkin is an evil man.

Josh Thomson 43:50 He's nasty good.

Joe Rogan 43:50 He's so good. When you watch him, uh, you watch his style, his movement, I mean, against Neil Magny, throwing those, uh, the, the, the, those, um, oblique kicks to the body.

Josh Thomson 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 44:01 Who the fuck does that?

Josh Thomson 44:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:02 You know that, the, that one that a lot of guys like to throw to the thigh?

Josh Thomson 44:05 Yep.

Joe Rogan 44:05 He's hitting him in the body like a front kick with that. Blah! And I'm like-

Josh Thomson 44:09 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 44:09 "... Jesus Christ." He's so technical on his feet, he's so sweet on his feet. So for y- you see him get knocked out by Paul Daley, you realize, "Goddamn, that Paul Daley's a motherfucker."

Josh Thomson 44:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:19 That left hand of his is one of the best weapons in the sport. Everybody goes to sleep. And here it is, he, you see Paul Daley taking-

Josh Thomson 44:26 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:26 ... him down. And I was like, "I can't believe this."

Josh Thomson 44:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:29 I've never... Like, the, the fucking power that he has.

Josh Thomson 44:32 Oh, it's...

Joe Rogan 44:32 Paul Daley's power is, uh, like, his left hand in particular, one of the scariest fucking weapons in the sport. It really is. He just, you know, he's probably 36 now.

Josh Thomson 44:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:43 He's not the same guy that he was-

Josh Thomson 44:44 But the thing is he-

Joe Rogan 44:45 ... when he was 25.

Josh Thomson 44:45 ... he's not bad, though.

Joe Rogan 44:46 No, he's still good.

Josh Thomson 44:46 On Tony Rand, he's still really damn good. Fuck yeah. If we put him back, I'm just saying, like, if we put him back in the UFC, I'd still say he's probably in the top five or six.

Joe Rogan 44:54 Well, he's always-

Josh Thomson 44:55 At 170.

Joe Rogan 44:55 ... gonna have a problem with real wrestlers.

Josh Thomson 44:56 Yeah, of course he is.

Joe Rogan 44:57 You know?

Josh Thomson 44:57 But I also think that his game has always been shaped, like guys like Jon Fitch were able to just grind and grind and grind. But guys like Usman and Colby, they don't... They grind on you, sure. But with Jon when he fought him the last time, he just was, he just... Jon's in a different stage in his career where he's not letting go of the leg for anything. Usman and Colby will make space to throw punches, which could get them in trouble-

Joe Rogan 45:17 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 45:18 ... against somebody like him.

Joe Rogan 45:19 Right.

Josh Thomson 45:19 'Cause his power in his left hand is fucking nasty.

Joe Rogan 45:22 Fucking ridiculous.

Josh Thomson 45:23 Like if you pull up the, if you, you see the fight with him when he kno- when he dr- when he wobbled or dropped, uh, Nick Diaz.

Joe Rogan 45:28 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 45:28 Nick Diaz don't get dropped to shit like that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:30 I know.

Josh Thomson 45:30 Like that.

Joe Rogan 45:31 But how crazy is Nick Diaz? Nick Diaz forced him into a dog fight.

Josh Thomson 45:33 That's just-

Joe Rogan 45:34 Forced him into a dog fight.

Josh Thomson 45:35 And just ge- and that was one of the most freakish, weirdest knockouts I've-

Joe Rogan 45:38 It was amazing.

Josh Thomson 45:39 But thing is, that was when UFC had first taken over Strikeforce.

Joe Rogan 45:42 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 45:42 And I was sitting there cage side and I'm thinking to myself, "This is hands down the greatest MMA one round fight I've ever seen in my life." Ever.

Joe Rogan 45:49 It was amazing.

Josh Thomson 45:49 Ever.

Joe Rogan 45:50 It was amazing. He, he just wore him out.

Josh Thomson 45:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:53 Put- he just put that fucking Nick Diaz pace on him-

Josh Thomson 45:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:56 ... and wore him out. But when he clipped him and rocked him and, and dropped him, I was like, "Oh my God-

Josh Thomson 46:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:00 "... Paul Daley's gonna stop Nick Diaz? This is crazy."

Josh Thomson 46:02 This is nuts. This is nuts, yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:03 But just the fact that Nick fought him that way.

Josh Thomson 46:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:05 I mean, Ni- Nick didn't try to take him down.

Josh Thomson 46:07 No.

Joe Rogan 46:07 Nick didn't try to submit him. He just went after him. Just like, "Come on, let's do this."

Josh Thomson 46:10 But let's not forget the history of Nick Diaz, man.

Joe Rogan 46:12 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 46:12 Rob- it all started with Robbie Lawler. The history of Nick Diaz started with Robbie Lawler. Like-

Joe Rogan 46:16 Yep.

Josh Thomson 46:16 ..."Come on, motherfucker-"

Joe Rogan 46:17 Mm-hmm, yeah.

Josh Thomson 46:17 "... I got this."

Joe Rogan 46:18 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 46:18 And that's what e- that's what elevated him to that next level. That fight-

Joe Rogan 46:21 I called that fight, he walked into the octagon and he started yelling, "Stockton, motherfucker!"

Josh Thomson 46:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:26 "Stockton!" And, and Robbie Lawler's like, "What is happening here?"

Josh Thomson 46:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:29 Like, "What is this?" Like, Robbie Lawler was this dark destroyer.

Josh Thomson 46:32 Yep.

Joe Rogan 46:32 Everybody was scared of him. He was a spooky dude. He was flatlining people. And Nick Diaz, not only was he not scared of him, he was talking mad shit to him. He was fighting him, he was like, "What, bitch? What we doing, bitch?"

Josh Thomson 46:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:42 "What we doing, bitch?" And-

Josh Thomson 46:44 And, and people don't understand this. I, it's so funny, I, I had talk- I was talking to Big John the other day on our show and I was saying like, "Hey, man, the guys that I didn't get so damn tired when guys talk to me."

Joe Rogan 46:54 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 46:54 "It stresses me the fuck out, man." I'm like, I just start sweating-

Joe Rogan 46:58 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 46:58 ... and I'm like, "This is... Shut the fuck up!"

Joe Rogan 47:00 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 47:00 "We're supposed to be fighting." I couldn't believe it. I was like, "Dude."

Joe Rogan 47:03 Do you remember when Nick Dia- did that to Frank Shamrock?

Josh Thomson 47:06 Yes.

Joe Rogan 47:06 And Frank Shamrock was like, "I can't believe this is happening."

Josh Thomson 47:09 'Cause it's usually Frank that does it.

Joe Rogan 47:10 Yes!

Josh Thomson 47:11 I-

Joe Rogan 47:11 Yes!

Josh Thomson 47:11 I trained with Frank for years and I'm like, w- where I'm in his guard and he's like, "Come on, Josh, get up. Like, throw punches, do something or I'm gonna fucking sub you. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that." And you're just like, "Shut up, man." So I just wanna punch you harder and it makes you more tired.

Joe Rogan 47:23 And the fact that Nick was doing it and out cardioing him.

Josh Thomson 47:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 47:26 Frank's thing was always being the best shape-

Josh Thomson 47:28 Yep.

Joe Rogan 47:28 ... so he could put, like when he beat Tito.

Josh Thomson 47:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:30 Just put that pace on him and Tito couldn't keep up, and then he finished him.

Josh Thomson 47:33 Yeah, Frank was not the same guy when he fought Nick-

Joe Rogan 47:35 No.

Josh Thomson 47:35 ... at that time. But let's be real, like, at that time, like, it was just, it was awesome to see somebody like-... like Nick do that. Because Nick, though, if you recall at the end of the fight, he picks Frank up-

Joe Rogan 47:45 Yes.

Josh Thomson 47:45 ... he's like, "You're a fucking legend."

Joe Rogan 47:46 You're a legend. Yeah.

Josh Thomson 47:46 "Do not sit down there like that, you're a fucking legend."

Joe Rogan 47:49 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 47:49 And that's what people talk to me all the time about my fight with Nate. And I say, "Look, man, I have nothing but respect for both those guys. Those guys are fucking animals."

Joe Rogan 47:57 Animals.

Josh Thomson 47:57 Not only are they animals, but I, what I love is, I love people, we were talking about Big John being a good guy before we came on the show-

Joe Rogan 48:03 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 48:03 ... and, Big John McCarthy. And I said, "Absolutely." And when I think of guys that are good guys, I think of guys that stick by their friends no matter what.

Joe Rogan 48:11 Yes.

Josh Thomson 48:11 You gotta remember that brawl that happened on CBS, right? We were talking about that as well. That brawl w- with Mayhem Miller, Jake Shields, Nick Diaz. But guess what? That whole scrap pack, th- they die for each other.

Joe Rogan 48:21 Yes.

Josh Thomson 48:21 And you can't knock friendship like that. And I, and I look at those guys, and they're really good people. From Gilbert Melendez, his wife Carrie, Nick and Nate, and Jake. Jake's, like, still one of my good, good buddies. Gil is as well. But even though I don't talk to (laughs) Nate anymore really, like, but it's still, I have nothing but respect for-

Joe Rogan 48:37 Yes.

Josh Thomson 48:37 ... those guys themselves. They, they did it on their own, and that, they're fucking amazing. I will buy their pay-per-view every single time they fight, no matter what.

Joe Rogan 48:44 Agreed. And, you know, Nick Diaz changed the game in terms of his elite cardio. He did something that was a new thing.

Josh Thomson 48:51 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 48:51 And that new thing was he's not gonna hit you with 100% power. He's gonna hit you with 50%.

Josh Thomson 48:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:56 But he's gonna hit you with twice as much and you're never gonna get to breathe. And he's gonna stay on top of you and he's gonna talk to you the whole time, so he's gonna fuck with you psychologically-

Josh Thomson 49:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:04 ... he's gonna disrupt your breathing by constantly hitting you ha- and then once he realizes you're hurt, then he's digging into the body. Then he's putting it on you. And on top of that, black belt jujitsu skills-

Josh Thomson 49:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:14 ... really good wrestling take-down defense, fucking chin made of iron, and an unstoppable will.

Josh Thomson 49:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:19 Like his will to beat you was just unstoppable when, when Nick was at the top in Strikeforce, to this day I think he's one of the best fighters that's ever done it.

Josh Thomson 49:27 Yep.

Joe Rogan 49:27 To this day.

Josh Thomson 49:28 No, I, I agree. I think a lot of that unstoppable will, though, comes from him doing triathlons.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Yes.

Josh Thomson 49:32 That's that des- I was like, "Hey, I cannot stop, otherwise I lose my time. And I'm only got five more miles, or eight more miles until I get to the bike, or-"

Joe Rogan 49:39 Yes.

Josh Thomson 49:39 "... until I get to the run-"

Joe Rogan 49:40 Yes.

Josh Thomson 49:40 "... or until I'm, uh, until I get to the s- uh, I'm done with the swim." Those are things in your mind as an athlete, you're always thinking like, "I'm almost there."

Joe Rogan 49:48 Yes.

Josh Thomson 49:48 "Okay, I'm only gonna run to the two, the, the two-minute mark. Okay, I'm only gonna run to the five-minute." You set goals for yourself as you go. "Shit, I smashed a goal. Okay, one more goal ahead." Those are things that, uh, top athletes do. And I feel like that's what he's done with his career. He used triathlons to help get him there.

Joe Rogan 50:02 Yes.

Josh Thomson 50:02 He was always good, always nasty, like good jujitsu, great, phenomenal guillotines. His game has always been really good. But when he upped his game in that bo- in boxing, and the pace, like you're saying, just the touch, touch, touch, now bam, bam-

Joe Rogan 50:15 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 50:15 ... touch, touch, touch, bam. That's next level boxing that we hadn't seen in MMA at the time.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Yeah, and sparring with Andre Ward on a regular basis too.

Josh Thomson 50:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:22 I mean, he did ... Look, he, he, he did really change things. He really changed things, in particular with that fucking cardio of his. He has some spooky cardio. Speaking of spooky cardio, let's talk about Tony Ferguson.

Josh Thomson 50:34 (laughs) Okay.

Joe Rogan 50:36 That guy's got some g- And you, you have personal experience with Tony Ferguson.

Josh Thomson 50:39 Yes. Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Th- that guy has some spooky-

Josh Thomson 50:40 Unfortunately. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:42 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 50:42 Unfortunately. Unfortunately.

Joe Rogan 50:43 He's, he's, he's got spooky fucking cardio, man. And I-

Josh Thomson 50:46 Uh-

Joe Rogan 50:46 I give him a real shot against Khabib. I give him a real shot.

Josh Thomson 50:50 Okay. So, um, I do and I don't. I, I h- and I'm not, I'm, I'm not trying to take a dig at him. I actually am a big fan of his. Okay? And I was a big fan of his before I fought him. And I did a lot of research on him, uh, leading up to the fight. I never really showed him any respect up until like, "Ah, he's just okay, he's a little sloppy, he's this, he's that." But once I did the research on him leading up to our fight, I- it impressed me. What impressed me was, dude, the guy can take a shot, give a shot, the guy doesn't slow down. The guy doesn't care where the fight goes. Any time you have somebody who doesn't care where the fight goes, it changes the dynamic of how you approach him. 'Cause if you take him down, what does that matter?

Joe Rogan 51:26 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 51:26 He don't care. Okay? He's-

Joe Rogan 51:27 He likes it.

Josh Thomson 51:28 Yeah, he's good with the darts, he's good with the guillotine, he's good with trials, he's good with all those. He doesn't care. So if he stays on the feet, guess what? He keeps his distance and his range, does his long-range push kicks and his, and his jabs and his, you know, combinations. He doesn't care where the fight goes. Neither does Khabib. But obviously Khabib would like to keep the fight on the ground, press against the fence, doing work, what he's done, and it continues to work, and does, does what he does best. I- I- uh, look, for me, I feel like the only way that Tony wins is by a cut.

Joe Rogan 51:58 Hmm. That's a good point.

Josh Thomson 51:59 I don't think, I don't think ... Uh, uh, I don't think that he can sub him. Now, I'm not saying it can't happen. We, we understand, like, when cuts happen, you get a little more slippery, things slide in a lot faster.

Joe Rogan 52:11 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 52:11 Okay? Um, especially in that darts position. Like, he's really g- he'll hit that darts up from any direction. He'll hit it from, he'll hit it from his guard, he'll hit it from his butt, he'll hit it from anywhere.

Joe Rogan 52:19 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 52:20 So if you're hanging out, if Khabib doesn't put the placement of his head in the right spot, it could be a really, really tough night for him.

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yeah, he hits from, from side control.

Josh Thomson 52:28 From being elbowed-

Joe Rogan 52:29 You're in side control on him.

Josh Thomson 52:29 ... yeah, from being elbowed or from being choked.

Joe Rogan 52:30 Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Thomson 52:30 So he's got a ... All the intangibles to become world champion. I don't, I mean, he's already a former inter- the interim champion, which I still consider him to be, he was the champion at the time.

Joe Rogan 52:39 Yes.

Josh Thomson 52:39 Um, h- th- I have nothing bad to say about him. I just think that physically strong, he is not. And I- and I don't want- I'm not knocking him, I'm just simply saying, f- strength-wise, he is not. But Joe here, I want him to shake my hand. His hands will go around yours probably twice.

Joe Rogan 52:53 Just bricks.

Josh Thomson 52:54 He, he ... No, he's got such long-

Joe Rogan 52:57 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 52:57 ... fingers. That's what threw me off. Honestly, when I shook his hand at the weigh-ins, his fingers wrapped all the way around my hand, almost engulfed my whole hand. I was like, "Oh shit, you got (laughs) really big hands."

Joe Rogan 53:06 (laughs) Well, that makes the power.

Josh Thomson 53:08 No, not just that. But when h- when he ... There was a moment there where-

Joe Rogan 53:11 Wrist control.

Josh Thomson 53:12 ... he h- yeah, wrist control. So when I got into his guard, he grabbed my wrist, and I couldn't get my arm free. And then in the meantime, he's elbowing me in my head.

Joe Rogan 53:18 Oh.

Josh Thomson 53:18 And I got two Mercedes-Benz cuts-

Joe Rogan 53:20 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 53:20 ... right here on the front of my forehead. Okay? (laughs) So it was, like, right there.

Joe Rogan 53:24 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 53:24 And then he cut me with the good elbow when I stepped in on him. But the two Mercedes-Benz cuts were from him with wrist control and him elbowing me from his guard.

Joe Rogan 53:30 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 53:31 If Khabib gets put into his guard, it could end up being a tough fight-

Joe Rogan 53:35 Hmm.

Josh Thomson 53:35 ... because cuts ...... cuts happen, and when they do happen, you have a shaved head. There's nothing stopping them from flowing right into your, into your eyes.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Right.

Josh Thomson 53:44 Your eyebrows are not gonna stop (laughs) all that blood.

Joe Rogan 53:47 Right.

Josh Thomson 53:47 And if you recall, remember the Joe "Daddy" Stevenson and Yves Edwards fights, that shit was just squirting out.

Joe Rogan 53:51 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 53:52 You know, there's an Adam Piccolotti fight as well in Bellator where the- he had cut the guy on the top of the head and literally he gets a rear neck and chokes him and you see blood go (squelching noise) everywhere.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Mm-hmm, yep. Yeah.

Josh Thomson 54:01 And I'm just thinking to myself, in a fight where you, you know, you shave your head or your head's- your hair's always really short, or it's, you know, it's, it's not gonna look good to the, to the judges or to the doctor and things like that. And, and by- and, like, uh, Sean brought this up. This fight's in New York.

Joe Rogan 54:17 Yes.

Josh Thomson 54:18 With that fucking lame-ass doctor that stopped-

Joe Rogan 54:20 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 54:20 ... the Nick Diaz fight.

Joe Rogan 54:20 Yes. Yeah.

Josh Thomson 54:21 The lame-ass doctor, this- so-

Joe Rogan 54:22 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 54:23 "Oh, he's got a vagina on his eye." No one gives a shit.

Joe Rogan 54:25 Right.

Josh Thomson 54:25 Like, the guy can still fight-

Joe Rogan 54:27 Right.

Josh Thomson 54:27 ... you know. Um, they're just, they're being extra cautious in New York right now 'cause it's a relatively new sport, is what I believe.

Joe Rogan 54:32 I believe too.

Josh Thomson 54:32 You know, and then I believe they had that death of that boxer that was there. So then that, it just, they're just trying to make sure, which I understand, like, the safety of the fighters-

Joe Rogan 54:40 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 54:40 ... is most important.

Joe Rogan 54:41 Yeah, I would prefer that being in Vegas.

Josh Thomson 54:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:44 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 54:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:44 I would prefer, in Vegas, they'll let shit go. Although, you know, I think they, I mean, they did check Maycee Barber's knee.

Josh Thomson 54:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:50 That was kind of crazy. I thought that was pretty-

Josh Thomson 54:52 Wasn't that kind of crazy?

Joe Rogan 54:52 I thought it was kind of awesome, though, because yeah, I've d- I've s- done that a lot with my therapist. My therapist will be like, "Okay, yeah, you have, like, probably a grade two sprain-"

Josh Thomson 54:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 54:59 "... but you'll be all right." Like, you can tell, if that-

Josh Thomson 55:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 55:01 ... if it's torn-

Josh Thomson 55:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:02 ... your shit's flopping around. But y- didn't you think it was weird that they were checking her? Like, remember Thiago Santos?

Josh Thomson 55:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Thiago Santos has zero knees.

Josh Thomson 55:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:08 His knees were gone and he's still swinging haymakers at Jon Jones.

Josh Thomson 55:12 'Cause he's a fucking savage.

Joe Rogan 55:13 Savage. (laughs) He's a savage.

Josh Thomson 55:14 (laughs) That guy is a savage. I mean, uh, look, at that fight, I, I could see it going to Jon, but I also ha- I could also see it going to Santos, and I was with-

Joe Rogan 55:21 He was close.

Josh Thomson 55:22 I was like, man, if you hadn't have got hurt, how would this fight-

Joe Rogan 55:25 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 55:25 ... have been different?

Joe Rogan 55:26 Right, right.

Josh Thomson 55:27 You are, you are good, really good.

Joe Rogan 55:29 And it's, he's fucking dangerous as shit.

Josh Thomson 55:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:30 And that power is undeniable.

Josh Thomson 55:32 No.

Joe Rogan 55:32 It seemed like he didn't get hurt from anything. It w- it was, like, a weird thing, right? Like, he threw-

Josh Thomson 55:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:38 ... a punch and his leg just kind of buckled.

Josh Thomson 55:40 Yeah, but you've got to remember, though, remember Patrick Cote did the same thing with Anderson Silva.

Joe Rogan 55:43 Yes, yes.

Josh Thomson 55:43 You know, uh, T Wood, I think, or not T Wood, uh, Carlos Condit with T Wood-

Joe Rogan 55:47 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 55:47 ... same thing.

Joe Rogan 55:47 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 55:48 I mean, he didn't really do anything. It's like kind of one of those step backs or-

Joe Rogan 55:50 Well, Carlos with, uh, Tyron, though, it was a leg kick, remember?

Josh Thomson 55:53 Yeah, but what, but he tore it, though. Was it from the leg kick or was it just when he got it?

Joe Rogan 55:57 We don't know. Sometimes, like, y- you know how it is. Like, sometimes you are a little fucked up going into the fight-

Josh Thomson 56:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:01 ... and sometimes you just get a little bit of an injury in the fight and then all of a sudden a big leg kick.

Josh Thomson 56:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:05 But Tyron leg kicked him and then his, his knee blew out.

Josh Thomson 56:07 Just buck out.

Joe Rogan 56:08 Tyron's legs are, like, too-

Josh Thomson 56:09 Yeah, I know.

Joe Rogan 56:10 I've trained with him a couple of times. Giant fucking legs.

Josh Thomson 56:13 For, for someone who is built like a Greek god, he's fucking one of the nicest guys.

Joe Rogan 56:17 He's a great guy.

Josh Thomson 56:18 I so fucking- such a great guy to be around.

Joe Rogan 56:19 I love how smart he is, too-

Josh Thomson 56:21 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:21 ... in terms of his full career. Like, he's, he's getting his, like, he, he di- dips his hands in a bunch of different things-

Josh Thomson 56:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:27 ... right? He's g- he's rapping, he's, uh, doing a lot of TMZ stuff.

Josh Thomson 56:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:31 He's, he's constantly putting up YouTube content. He's on top of shit.

Josh Thomson 56:35 So, uh, that's, so to touch on, we're, uh, I was talking with, like I said, I keep bringing up Jon 'cause Jon and I talk about it a lot, obviously-

Joe Rogan 56:41 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 56:41 ... but is fighters after fighting, you need to have a game plan.

Joe Rogan 56:47 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 56:47 And, and I'm not saying it's gonna all work, okay, guys? I mean, like, that's the thing is I k- I own a fitness gym, I own a, a martial arts gym, and I do a podcast, and I, you know, and I own a clothing line. I do all these things, but all of them supplement a little bit of the income that I was making for fighting. I think the problem is, is fighters need to get into dabbling into other things. Look, whether it's a podcast or whether it's, uh, uh, owning a gym or anything li-

Joe Rogan 57:08 Yeah.

Josh Thomson 57:08 ... I would recommend no gym businesses. Just, I would recommend that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:11 Is it rough?

Josh Thomson 57:12 It's rough. I mean, it's, it's the constant hustle. I've got 15 employees, so it's a lot of work. When you've got that many employees, it's like you have trainers that work for you, you have front desk people that work for you. I've got jiu-jitsu coaches that help work and help teach when I'm not there. Like they're, they're there now while I'm here with you. And so it's, it's, uh, and I owe, I owe a lot to them. Like, they, you know, they run the fort while I'm gone, you know?

Joe Rogan 57:31 It's just a lot to manage.

Josh Thomson 57:32 It's a lot to manage. Like, I get back to the room, you know, later today and I'ma get on the computer, look at my compu- you know, I'll look at my cameras, like how you have here.

Joe Rogan 57:38 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 57:38 And you see, hey, everything's okay, everything's going good. Plenty of kids came to class today. Like, you know, I've got, like, over 100 kids in my martial arts gym.

Joe Rogan 57:43 That's awesome.

Josh Thomson 57:44 You know, a jiu-jitsu base and, uh, wrestling, I have jiu-jitsu, got DC's wrestling program in there. But all that gym business is hard. It's a constant hustle. But you have to remember it's an ebb and flow. So summers are slow 'cause indoors.

Joe Rogan 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Josh Thomson 57:58 No one really wants to train during the summer. Everyone's like, "I wanna go to the beach. I wanna go run at the be- I wanna go to Muscle Beach and lift." You know, like, those are the things that people... They wanna go hiking, you know, camping. Um, that's the fitness side of it. The jiu-jitsu part of it, like, sure, the jiu-jitsu nerds, they're in there. (laughs) Like, they're gonna-

Joe Rogan 58:11 Right.

Josh Thomson 58:11 ... be there no matter what. You know, kickboxers, anything like that, they take the vacation 'cause they, well, you know, they wanna be outside. Gym business is extremely hard. During the summer, you're slow. September, October, you pick back up. Holidays, you're slow. New Year's, you're back to getting busy 'cause New Year's resolutions. Y'all wanna be skinny up, up until May, okay?

Joe Rogan 58:29 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 58:30 (laughs) When, when it's Memorial Weekend and you're all in Vegas, you know, at the pool parties.

Joe Rogan 58:33 Yep.

Josh Thomson 58:33 That's, that's their game plan. So you just got to learn to manage your money and budget your money and figure out things to supplement the income during the times that are slow. That's really what it comes down to.

Joe Rogan 58:43 It is a really smart thing for fighters. I mean, Brendan obviously has struck pay dirt with the Fighter and the Kid and Below the Belt and all the other shit that he does. And in a lot of ways, and also Stand Up, in a lot of ways, he's opened up the door for a lot of fighters to, to follow that model. And a lot of guys are doing podcasts now because of that. I mean, Mike, uh, Bisping has a really good podcast with Luis Gomes. And, you know, there's a l- a lot of other fighters that are getting involved in, in setting up similar things too. But I think that's really important to, to, to say that they need some... Like, you, you can't fight forever. It's not possible. So there's got to be something that you're gonna do for the rest of your life to make an income. And when you're focused singularly on one thing-

Josh Thomson 59:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:22 ... being the best fighter that you can be, it's very difficult to even imagine a future without fighting for a lot of these guys.

Josh Thomson 59:28 So this is, uh, the advice that I gave myself. (inhales) So my last fight was against Patrique Pitbull, which is Patricio's brother. And, uh, you know, I, I lost. And when I lost, I kept going to the gym after.

Joe Rogan 59:40 (laughs)

Josh Thomson 59:40 And when I kept going to the gym and I was thinking to myself-You know, you're 40 years old, like, you know, and this, like, what are you gonna... You know, like, what's next? You know? Are you gonna fight again? Let's... And when the reality set in that, like, if you wanna do something else, your new life is gonna cost you your old one. You have to have that mentality because I can't keep going to the gym wasting two, you know, five, four or five hours a day at the gym and still try to start another career.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Right.

Josh Thomson 1:00:06 You've gotta leave that behind. Whatever it is you're doing, like, to, in fighting, if you're gonna