JRE MMA Show #86 with Josh Thomson

1. 0:01 – 1:00

   Stephen A. Smith training clip sparks debate about MMA credibility

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Three, two, one... Joshua! What's happening, my man?

   2. JTJosh Thomson0:05

      (laughs) What's going on, man?

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Good to see you. So, uh, I looked at your Instagram yesterday, and you had that video of Stephen A. Smith-

   4. JTJosh Thomson0:11

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:11

      ... and immediately I was like, "Oh, my goodness. This explains so much."

   6. JTJosh Thomson0:17

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      Play this. Play, play this, Jamie. Watch this, watch this. First of all, (glass breaking) someone needs to explain to me what's happening here. I don't know why he's punching a baby.

   8. JTJosh Thomson0:25

      Yeah. Well, it looks like a dick punch to the left. (laughs) What?

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:27

      I don't even think it's a dick, unless that guy's got a two-foot dick. Look how low he's punching.

   10. JTJosh Thomson0:33

       I... No idea, man. I-

   11. JRJoe Rogan0:34

       This guy should not be allowed to talk about fighting.

   12. JTJosh Thomson0:37

       Yeah, look, um...

   13. JRJoe Rogan0:38

       Just-

   14. JTJosh Thomson0:39

       I'm gonna cut him a little bit of slack. Only, I'm, I... Seriously, I... We have this... Here's the thing with Strikeforce. We had kind of a similar situation, not like this though, by the way, with Gus Johnson.

   15. JRJoe Rogan0:47

       I remember, yes.

   16. JTJosh Thomson0:48

       With Gus- was trying to talk, and, and I love Gus. When he's talking basketball-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:51

       Yeah.

   18. JTJosh Thomson0:51

       ... I think he's got the energy and the voice that makes people like, oh, wow, they're gripped to the TV. This, I can understand with Stephen A., but this is not-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00

       (laughs)

2. 1:00 – 2:37

   Calling Cowboy Cerrone a “quitter”: why fighters take it personally

   1. JTJosh Thomson1:00

      ... what you wanna release after you just called someone who's a pioneer in the sport, you basically call him a quitter.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:06

      You call a guy a quitter. First of all, he had a broken orbital bone, okay? You're saying he was a quitter? He got his face smashed, okay?

   3. JTJosh Thomson1:13

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:13

      He got cracked by one of the biggest punchers in the sport.

   5. JTJosh Thomson1:15

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:15

      He, uh... He has the most wins in the sport. He has the most wins by finish. He has the most bonuses. I mean, come on.

   7. JTJosh Thomson1:23

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:23

      He has the most fights. Come on. Y- you're calling that guy a quitter? He got cracked. That's what happens. Look, fighting is the only sport that you could end it early, right?

   9. JTJosh Thomson1:33

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:33

       You can't end a football game in 40 seconds. Imagine, imagine if you just... Your front line was so strong, your fucking quarterback was so badass, you could storm a football game in 40 seconds, it'd be a different sport, right?

   11. JTJosh Thomson1:45

       Yeah, my concern with him, though, was that, like... Look, he's fine he just did the video. I get it. Like (laughs) it's 'cause you're trying to learn the sport.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:53

       (laughs)

   13. JTJosh Thomson1:53

       But I gotta tell you, like, DC sent me this video.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:55

       (laughs)

   15. JTJosh Thomson1:55

       He basically commented on it, and I said, I said... D, D's trying to protect him. DC is trying to protect him. I said, "You cannot protect this guy."

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       No, no.

   17. JTJosh Thomson2:03

       "Not from this." You can't call someone like Cowboy Cerrone or any other... I'm sorry, any other top guy in any organization.

   18. JRJoe Rogan2:09

       Yes.

   19. JTJosh Thomson2:09

       I don't care if it's UFC, Bellator, ONE, any of them.

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:12

       ONE, yes. Completely agree.

   21. JTJosh Thomson2:13

       All the, all these organ- You cannot do that to these guys. These guys lay it on the line every time. We're not slapping a puck or hitting a baseball, okay?

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       Yes.

   23. JTJosh Thomson2:19

       We're really out there getting hurt.

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:21

       Yes.

   25. JTJosh Thomson2:21

       And when someone calls you a quitter like that, he better be car- I'm not saying he should be careful, like watch his back, but don't expect these fighters to be very courteous to you next time you walk in the hall. And that's the issue that I think we come across here with top... Fighters are very offensive when... They get offended with things like this.

   26. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       Rightly so.

   27. JTJosh Thomson2:36

       Yeah.

3. 2:37 – 4:43

   Sports-radio hot takes vs responsible fight analysis

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:37

      It's a different thing. There's... The, the emotional cost of losing a fight is so much different than losing a game.

   2. JTJosh Thomson2:45

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:45

      It's not the same. And there's a culture in sports broadcasting, whether it's radio or television, this just diminishing of people. There's this shit-talking that goes with sports, you know. "He always falls apart. That guy... Th- That motherfucker needs to give his money back. He sucks." This and that. And the other guy's like, "Oh, I can't believe you're saying that." You could do that in sports radio, and people love it.

   4. JTJosh Thomson3:08

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan3:08

      'Cause if you're on the job site, and you listen to the radio, and you're... you know, you're fucking hammering nails. You're like, "You're right, he does suck."

   6. JTJosh Thomson3:14

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan3:14

      And there's a mentality that goes along with that kind of sports radio, sports guy talk. I hate that shit. I've resisted that from the beginning, and I've, I've, I've shit on those guys-

   8. JTJosh Thomson3:25

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan3:25

      ... from the beginning because it's not the same thing. You're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about fighting. You're talking about unbelievable physical consequences, including, knock on wood, in our sport, it's very rare, but death.

   10. JTJosh Thomson3:38

       Yeah. No, it's true. But the other thing, though, too, is that you're criticizing someone for being a quitter, and someone who's been, been there on every level of the game.

   11. JRJoe Rogan3:44

       Every level.

   12. JTJosh Thomson3:45

       But, not only that, but then you look like you've never played basketball or baseball or any other sport in your life, either, h- and it's like that. I'm sorry. It's... You cannot criticize people. And to be on the talk show, like you're saying, those talk show radios, that's the energy you need to bring when you're going against someone like Max Kellerman or any of the other... or Skip Bayless and those guys. Go ahead and have that conversation with them, but you cannot... You can't look like that (laughs) as they talk shit. I'm sorry, man.

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:09

       That culture, the culture of the sport... Look, Max Kellerman is a different animal. Max Kellerman is in- incredibly knowledgeable when it comes to sports and, and really so when it comes to boxing. He's not a shit-talker. He's just more honest about it.

   14. JTJosh Thomson4:21

       Yeah, that's true.

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:22

       But there's a lot of currency in being a Stephen A. Smith, you know.

   16. JTJosh Thomson4:25

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:25

       He's really entertaining. That, that shit-talking that he does. He's a... he's... you know. He's a, he's a guy that's fun to watch. He talks a lot of shit, and he gets real loud, and everybody disagrees with him and... Look, it's made him a fantastic career. That's why. And he carries that over to MMA. I think it's a bad idea.

4. 4:43 – 6:07

   When a persona becomes permanent: shtick, fame, and identity

   1. JTJosh Thomson4:43

      Is it a shtick, though? That's my thought, my process. Like, you know how Chael has his shtick? Like, he-

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:47

      Yes.

   3. JTJosh Thomson4:47

      And like, the, the camera turns off. Colby has his shtick-

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:49

      Yes.

   5. JTJosh Thomson4:49

      ... and when the camera turns off. They're not that person.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:51

      Right.

   7. JTJosh Thomson4:52

      Is he that person in real life?

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:53

      I think it blends in, you know.

   9. JTJosh Thomson4:56

      Or is he... He just now inherited that person, so that's who he is now in real life?

   10. JRJoe Rogan4:59

       Andrew Dice Clay-

   11. JTJosh Thomson5:00

       I mean, here's the deal.

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:00

       Andrew Dice Clay, his real name is Andrew Silverstein. And the Dice Man was a character that he used to do in his act. Dice Clay is, like, one of the best impressionists ever.

   13. JTJosh Thomson5:10

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:10

       And he does, like... He does John Travolta and all these different people, and it's amazing. And in his act, he would do all these impressions, and then he would do this guy, the Dice Man, and he would do these fucking rhymes, and he'd put this jacket on. And everybody loved that so much, he just became the Dice Man. And then after a few years, he was just Dice Man 24/7.

   15. JTJosh Thomson5:29

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:29

       He's wearing these leather jackets everywhere. Everywhere he goes, he's got weightlifting gloves on. Every time you meet him, he's got weightlifting gloves. He became this guy, right? And it's a thing that happens to people sometimes, where people love one thing.

   17. JTJosh Thomson5:41

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       You lean into your fans. And I think Stephen A. Smith... I don't know him as a human being. I've only met him a couple times.

   19. JTJosh Thomson5:46

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:46

       He's a nice guy. Nice guy to me. We had a nice conversation. On air, we had a little weirdness 'cause he was just saying, "We didn't learn anything about C- Conor." I'm like, "The fuck you didn't."

   21. JTJosh Thomson5:55

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       He just destroyed Cowboy in 40 seconds.

   23. JTJosh Thomson5:58

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:58

       Like, you learn something. You learn he can perform under the bright lights in a giant pay-per-view after more than a year and a half out of the game. Yeah, you learn something. You just don't know what you saw.

5. 6:07 – 17:19

   What Conor’s 40-second win actually showed (and why people missed it)

   1. JTJosh Thomson6:07

      Yeah. I, I agree with you 100% that y- he did learn something. I mean-

   2. JRJoe Rogan6:11

      Yeah.

   3. JTJosh Thomson6:11

      ... like, I learned something from him. Like, somebody who'd taken that am- that amount of time off, and I'm gonna say this, um, (clears throat) to be frank. Obviously, I, I work for Bellator, and I do a lot of work for them, but the thing is, you, you kind of have to give credit where credit is due. I give credit to all the fighters. It doesn't matter if you're in one. Look, Eddie, to me, is f- ... one of the best 55-pounders to ever walk the face of the Earth.

   4. JRJoe Rogan6:29

      Agreed.

   5. JTJosh Thomson6:29

      Conor McGregor, to me, I thought he did things in that fight against Khabib that no other guy has been able to do. First off, he won a round.

   6. JRJoe Rogan6:36

      Yes.

   7. JTJosh Thomson6:36

      That's something no one's ever ... Now, people say, "Oh, well, Khabib took the round off." Yeah, 'cause each maybe he tried to finish him at the end of the second, but the bottom line is, he still won the round.

   8. JRJoe Rogan6:44

      Yes.

   9. JTJosh Thomson6:45

      Okay? And there's not only that, but there was a lot of times and opportunities where Khabib had a hard time getting the take down. We didn't see that against guys with wrestling backgrounds like Abel Trujillo and those other guys, where he was flinging around winning records basically for the most take downs in one fight.

   10. JRJoe Rogan6:58

       Yes.

   11. JTJosh Thomson6:59

       There's tons of things that Conor does that people overlook and underestimate because he's such a knockout artist and he's so good, and his stance and his style and things that ... He brought this to the next level. And I, I, you cannot discredit what he's done in the sport. What I learned from that is that from somebody who can take 15 months off and come back and perform the way that he did against someone like Donald Cerrone is absolutely amazing. That's what I took.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:23

       That's why you need guys like you-

   13. JTJosh Thomson7:25

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       ... doing post-fight commentary and discussing these things. Not people who don't understand the sport and practice dick punches.

   15. JTJosh Thomson7:32

       Well, I w- (laughs) or baby hitting.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:35

       It's a different thing.

   17. JTJosh Thomson7:35

       It's basically the same-

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:36

       Maybe he's hitting babies.

   19. JTJosh Thomson7:36

       Yeah, he's hitting babies.

   20. JRJoe Rogan7:36

       He's really into punching babies.

   21. JTJosh Thomson7:38

       I want to ask you this though, 'cause it was funny 'cause I could see your face in the middle of it all. How awkward is that for you to stand between (laughs) the two of them and go, "W- what are you guys fucking talking about?" Like, I mean it can-

   22. JRJoe Rogan7:48

       Yeah. I would, I would have preferred to talk to DC or Felder-

   23. JTJosh Thomson7:52

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan7:52

       ... or you or anybody who understands the sport. I don't think it's the right way to do it. Uh, the one gentleman to my right, Mike Old, w- j- Jamie, what is his last name? Uh, he was great. And, and, uh, Stephen Smith was very nice to me too, and he said he's gonna get into podcasts. I have no problem with him as a human being.

   25. JTJosh Thomson8:07

       No.

   26. JRJoe Rogan8:07

       I just think, uh, look, I don't know jack shit about baseball.

   27. JTJosh Thomson8:11

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan8:11

       I don't know jack shit-

   29. JTJosh Thomson8:12

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan8:12

       ... about basketball. I literally don't even know the rules.
6. 17:19 – 23:07

   Building fighters up vs tearing them down: confidence, commentary, and consequences

   1. JTJosh Thomson17:19

      Yeah. I feel, um, so I got a l- I, I listen to your show quite a bit and I, I like a lot of what you had talked about before when you first got into comedy about talking about, um, how some of the other comics was like kinda shit on other young comics that were kinda up and coming. And when you came in, it was like a different, you try to just ingrain in people, like, "Hey, I wanna build you, all, all of you guys up that are with me on the same set. If we're doing the show and we're all on the same night, let's all just fucking make each other look good." I feel like especially in fighting, whether it's boxing, MMA, anything along those lines, we gotta be elevating each other to make each other better.

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:51

      Yes.

   3. JTJosh Thomson17:51

      Like, "Hey, this guy is good, this guy is good," without talking shit, 'cause we, like yourself specifically, as well as like even, uh, myself and other guys that have shows and podcasts and start talking, we're on a pla- on a different level of platform that can really kinda either make or break some people's careers.

   4. JRJoe Rogan18:07

      Yes.

   5. JTJosh Thomson18:07

      It als-... with, also, uh, the sport is confidence. Okay? MMA is, uh, a confident level. Anytime you do wrestling, it's a one-on-one combative sport, anytime wrestling, MMA, d- confidence is key. If my confidence is low, then that means that I'm not, probably not gonna perform my best. And the, when you take a loss, it goes lower and lower. When you gotta hear it from fucking people that don't know the business-

   6. JRJoe Rogan18:29

      Yes.

   7. JTJosh Thomson18:29

      ... like this right here, it's just another thing added on. And for other MMA guys to shit on other MMA guys, all that does is tear them down even more. And you could potentially, I'm not saying ruin their career, but you're, you're not helping them get to their goals and their levels. It's better if everyone shines, and we all handle ourselves with class and respect. And I feel like we just, in general, need to ho- hold ourselves to a higher standard if we're talking MMA, and making sure that we showcase this guy as really good. Like here, I'll give you an example. All I do when I talk about Frank Yeager is talk about how such an amazing pers- Even when he has a bad performance, he's still one of the best to ever do the game, and all the things that he's done from the p- before in the past. I say the same thing about BJ Penn. Somebody who, look, he exploded on the scene. I was training with him when he had that, that first run through Din Thomas, Uno, all those guys. He was training at AKA. All the things that happen now, to me, those are just bumps in the road as fighters get older, you know, and they just don't know how to react. Like, "This is it. I don't know what's going on." Like, they, they need somebody to step in, not shit on them. They need someone to step in, and, and talk to them. I text and talk to him all the time. It's like, "Hey, man. This, it might be time to move on, it might not." M- whatever the deal is. But they're good people at heart, and I know them personally. And we should just be talking in general about lifting these guys up to the next level. And that's the way I think every sport should handle it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan19:49

      The argument against that would be the massive success that Conor's had shitting on people in press conferences, and shitting on people in leading up to a fight-

   9. JTJosh Thomson19:57

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JRJoe Rogan19:57

       ... and the fact that that's built up so much animosity, but also so much attention. Like the Aldo fight. Dude, that, he made that fight by talking so much shit.

   11. JTJosh Thomson20:05

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JRJoe Rogan20:05

       It was, it's a big part of why that fight was so successful. And it was also like some serious psychological warfare.

   13. JTJosh Thomson20:11

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan20:11

       When Aldo went into that cage with Conor, you could see the weight of all that shit talking was weighing heavy on him.

   15. JTJosh Thomson20:17

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JRJoe Rogan20:17

       You could see it. It was like, he, uh, he probably hadn't slept, you know? He's probably really fucked up by that, emotionally, because Aldo was super respected. He was the fucking king. He was the guy that had torn through the featherweight division for years, and he had beaten everybody. Beaten the best of the best, and re- widely regarded as the greatest featherweight of all time. And then all of a sudden, Conor's just shitting on him-

   17. JTJosh Thomson20:38

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan20:38

       ... and shitting on him, and shitting on him. Tearing his picture apart, stealing his belt at press conferences, and all that craziness. It made the fight way bigger, but it also fucked with Jose physically and emotionally. So, when they actually fought, he had a diminished performance. He was, he was too emotional, he lost his composure, he rushed forward. He tried to-

   19. JTJosh Thomson20:57

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan20:57

       ... you know, he tried to hit him before everything was set up, and he got cracked for it.

   21. JTJosh Thomson21:01

       Yeah, I understand what you're saying in, in those terms. But look, when you're promoting a fight, promoting a fight to me is, is a separate thing.

   22. JRJoe Rogan21:07

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JTJosh Thomson21:07

       Though I think Conor overstepped the boundary when he talked about Khabib-

   24. JRJoe Rogan21:10

       Yes.

   25. JTJosh Thomson21:10

       ... and all the other family stuff, especially when he posted the picture with his wife. That, to me, is we are over the... Like, I understand, like Chael's done it a couple times when he talked about Jenna Jameson and Tito and that whole situation. Like, there's moments I think where guys have stepped over the line. But if I'm talking shit to you, taking your belt and doing those things, look, I'm marketing the fight.

   26. JRJoe Rogan21:29

       Right.

   27. JTJosh Thomson21:29

       That's a separate issue than doing what some guys do.

   28. JRJoe Rogan21:32

       And if you get a percentage of the pay-per-view, it actually benefits you when that guy shits on you, which is even more disturbing.

   29. JTJosh Thomson21:37

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan21:38

       (laughs)
7. 23:07 – 26:01

   Khabib’s wrestling level at AKA and what it means at 170

   1. JRJoe Rogan23:07

      We're good. (laughs)

   2. JTJosh Thomson23:07

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan23:07

      Exactly. Man, when, when you see Conor at 170, you know, obviously he beat Donald really handily, but do you think he's a legit 170?

   4. JTJosh Thomson23:15

      No. I don't think so, 'cause, um, l- uh, we, we saw with Khabib. Khabib could potentially be a legit 170, but even s- him, he'll be a little bit too small.

   5. JRJoe Rogan23:23

      For guys like Usman?

   6. JTJosh Thomson23:24

      Yeah, guys like Usman. Now, I think he could, I think he could out-wrestle Usman. He can out-wrestle Colby K-... I think he can out-wrestle-

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:29

      He can? You think so?

   8. JTJosh Thomson23:30

      100%.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:30

      Really?

   10. JTJosh Thomson23:31

       I've seen him-

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:31

       Wow.

   12. JTJosh Thomson23:31

       ... wrestle with DC. I've seen him wrestle with Olympic caliber wrestlers in our, in our, in our room. I'm telling you right now, yes.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:37

       Did he train with Jordan Burroughs at your place?

   14. JTJosh Thomson23:39

       Uh, I didn't see him train with Jordan, but I, I heard Jordan was com- had came through.

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:43

       Yeah.

   16. JTJosh Thomson23:43

       But I wasn't sure if they, I wasn't there during that time when he trained.

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:45

       Well, I would like to be a fly on the wall to watch-

   18. JTJosh Thomson23:47

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:47

       ... those two guys go at it.

   20. JTJosh Thomson23:48

       But I can tell you this, he trained with Ed Ruth.

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:50

       Yeah? How was that?

   22. JTJosh Thomson23:51

       And it was, um... What it was, what... Yeah. (laughs)

   23. JRJoe Rogan23:56

       Really?

   24. JTJosh Thomson23:56

       It w- uh, like, yeah. I mean-

   25. JRJoe Rogan23:57

       You don't wanna-

   26. JTJosh Thomson23:58

       Look-

   27. JRJoe Rogan23:58

       ... say anything, but-

   28. JTJosh Thomson23:58

       No, but there was moments though, where, you know, Ed was able to get some stuff on him, but then he was able to get some stuff on Ed as well. And Ed was able to get the ta- or Khabib was able to get the take downs as well on a three-time NC2A national champ.

   29. JRJoe Rogan24:09

       Wow.

   30. JTJosh Thomson24:09

       And you could tell... Look, Khabib's had more experience in terms of, uh, MMA.... you know, like, sambo was basically just MMA with a gi top on and, you know-
8. 26:01 – 31:50

   Aaron Pico: hype, matchmaking pressure, and the need for structured development

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:01

      Aaron Pico is a crazy case, right? It's-

   2. JTJosh Thomson26:04

      (clears throat)

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:04

      He's such a talented guy and he's still very young-

   4. JTJosh Thomson26:08

      Yes.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:09

      ... but there was so much hype on that kid right out of the gate, and they put him in against real tough competition right out of the gate.

   6. JTJosh Thomson26:16

      Yeah, look, he had to fi- he had to fight tough competition right out of the gate. There's a couple things. What people need to understand is this, is if I'm gonna pay you this amount of money-

   7. JRJoe Rogan26:24

      Hmm.

   8. JTJosh Thomson26:24

      ... because there's so much hype around you, then you're gonna have to fight this level of guy.

   9. JRJoe Rogan26:27

      Right.

   10. JTJosh Thomson26:28

       Okay? Now the problem with what happened with him, he's not a 55-pounder, he's tiny. So he b- he could potentially make 35.

   11. JRJoe Rogan26:35

       Really?

   12. JTJosh Thomson26:36

       Yeah. He's not a big guy. So that's what people keep forgetting. So when they... when he wanted to stay at 55, we said, "Okay, we'll give it a go. Let him get one or two fights, you know, in that position." But no one wanted to fight him. No one. Li- we were calling some of the best guys in Bellator, you know, at the time. They're like, "No, let's... We wanna see a couple fights of his first before we go, you know, throwing our s- our names out there to fight this guy."

   13. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       Really?

   14. JTJosh Thomson26:58

       "We'll see how he is." You know what I mean?

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:59

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JTJosh Thomson27:00

       And so when that happened... And I'm not knocking them. I mean, that's smart on their part. I mean every-

   17. JRJoe Rogan27:03

       Right.

   18. JTJosh Thomson27:04

       ... every top guy's gonna be like, "Yeah, let's see what he is first and then we'll figure it out." But then as soon as he lost to Zach Freeman, who was tall, long, lengthy, f- you know, good, decent submissions, not, not a world-beater, not a world-beater, but he was good. Aaron got exposed in the first fight, got clipped, then f- jumped in on a double leg, got guillotined, was out. Okay? Then he decided to make the loop down to, to 145. Had a couple good performance. He's got big dogs. He's got big dogs in his hands. He's got heavy hands, but he's a boxing base with wrestling background, which works if you've already been around guys that have been... done plenty of kickboxing. If you're just a boxing base, kicks come from angles you're not used to.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:40

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JTJosh Thomson27:41

       Like, different from punches.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:42

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JTJosh Thomson27:42

       And so he just needed to get to a camp and stay focused on one area with one or two coaches that would groom him into that. And now that he's at Jackson Wink, I think it's perfect for him because he's there with good, really, really good grapplers and really, really good g- guys. And so with, with Jackson there grooming him and f- and telling him how the game plan... Jackson's one of the best at game planning. I mean, you can't deny that.

   23. JRJoe Rogan28:05

       Yeah.

   24. JTJosh Thomson28:05

       And the fact is, is that he just needed someone to get in there. Now, I do know, like, he had a couple little issues, like, obviously he didn't... Like, he really didn't go to high school, I mean, like, as far as he... was just traveling around and trying to become the best wrestler in the world. I mean, at a young age, he's, you know, he's, he's winning everything. And that's-

   25. JRJoe Rogan28:21

       Yeah.

   26. JTJosh Thomson28:22

       It's hard when you take someone from school, put them into that type of thing, and they have success and they think they're gonna continue to have success on a world-class level, like, like, you know, in any sport. And, um, and h- he, since he had such s- success at a young age, his dad and his family got really involved into doing that and, and pushing him in that direction. And that's not always the best scenario and situation. I think sometimes you need to have management, uh, and trainers guide you when you're talking about a sport that other people have no idea what's going on.

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:55

       Yeah.

   28. JTJosh Thomson28:55

       It doesn't work that way. You know? Like, if people think, like, oh... I, I think family members... And I hear this all the time and I can speak from experience, my family sometimes comes in and says, "Yeah, how come, you know, you don't make what Conor McGregor's making?" It's not the same.

   29. JRJoe Rogan29:08

       Oh, Jesus Christ.

   30. JTJosh Thomson29:08

       I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?"
9. 31:50 – 35:54

   Promoter leverage and ‘shelving’ fighters: Josh’s Joe Silva story

   1. JTJosh Thomson31:50

      'Kay, 'cause that's- that- those type of things have been presented to me a couple times, you know. And, uh, w- Joe was the- the manager at the ti- or the, uh, trying to match make me when I was supposed to fight, uh, Anthony Pettis for the title. And he called and said, "Hey, Pettis is out." He's like, "Yeah, we want you to fight some tough Russian guy," uh, you know, that I've never heard of. And I was like, "I just knocked out Nate. I'm not g-" And I was supposed to fight for the title. I'm not gonna fight some tough Russian (laughs) guy from Dagestan I've never heard of. No, thanks.

   2. JRJoe Rogan32:15

      Yeah.

   3. JTJosh Thomson32:15

      He's like, "Fine, I'm gonna shelf you for six months." And I just told him, I said, "Hey, man, I'm pretty good with my money. I'll wait." So he just said okay, so the week later, I got the Benson fight. You know?

   4. JRJoe Rogan32:23

      That's such a fucked up thing to even say to someone.

   5. JTJosh Thomson32:25

      It is.

   6. JRJoe Rogan32:25

      "I'm gonna shelf you."

   7. JTJosh Thomson32:26

      Yeah, it is though.

   8. JRJoe Rogan32:27

      Ugh.

   9. JTJosh Thomson32:27

      But, you know, in reality though, like, look, uh, here's the thing. And I will say this, and I will stick up for Joe, even though I just said that. I will stick up for Joe Silva. I met with him shortly after that, and he's like, "Look at my phone. You see this? This is your division." He's like, "You see all these? These are all fighters in the division." He's like, "You see the ones at the top that you wanted to fight? Yeah, all those guys in red? They're hurt." He only had two people to choose from. So, and those two people were already matched up against each other, so what do you do?

   10. JRJoe Rogan32:54

       But they're- but that's the- the thing. Like, do you just take a fight because you wanna keep fighting? But how- how does it move your career when you are literally one shot away from-

   11. JTJosh Thomson33:02

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan33:02

       ... the title? Because when you knocked out Nate Diaz, first of all, you were the first guy to do it, you did it-

   13. JTJosh Thomson33:07

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JRJoe Rogan33:07

       ... spectacularly with a head kick. A lot of people forget that for some reason. People keep saying-

   15. JTJosh Thomson33:11

       (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan33:11

       ... he's never been stopped. I'm like-

   17. JTJosh Thomson33:12

       It's all right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan33:12

       ... go back and watch the tape.

   19. JTJosh Thomson33:13

       I like that you stick up for me. I appreciate that. (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       Always.

   21. JTJosh Thomson33:16

       Thank you.

   22. JRJoe Rogan33:16

       Always. But so you're in this crazy position where you're really knocking on the door for a title.

   23. JTJosh Thomson33:21

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan33:22

       And then they're saying, "Go fight some savage from the fucking mountains."

   25. JTJosh Thomson33:26

       Yeah. (laughs) It was (laughs) - it was really good though.

   26. JRJoe Rogan33:27

       Well, they're all g- the fucking Dagestanians-

   27. JTJosh Thomson33:29

       Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan33:29

       ... they are the scariest fucking humans on the planet.

   29. JTJosh Thomson33:32

       Well-

   30. JRJoe Rogan33:32

       It's amazing how many tough guys come from that part of the country or-
10. 35:54 – 56:35

    World-class talent outside the UFC and the case for cross-promotion

    1. JTJosh Thomson35:54

       Um, you know, well, look, the- what I wanted to talk to you about was like you had a- you and Brendan had a talk in conversation about guys like Lima and other guys having, you know, competition with top guys.

    2. JRJoe Rogan36:04

       I think Lima's a top guy. I think Michael Chandler's a top guy. I think Bellator has several guys that could compete with anybody in the world.

    3. JTJosh Thomson36:12

       Yeah.

    4. JRJoe Rogan36:12

       And I think the same thing about ONE FC. I still maintain to this day Mighty Mouse is probably the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet.

    5. JTJosh Thomson36:18

       Probably, yes.

    6. JRJoe Rogan36:19

       He- you mean, Jon Jones has faced stiffer competition because there's stiffer competition in the light heavyweight division. But the way Mighty Mouse was running through the division, the way Mighty Mouse would just d- not get hit.

    7. JTJosh Thomson36:29

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan36:29

       The- the expression of martial arts, in my opinion, when I watched him, I'd have never seen anybody more impressive.

    9. JTJosh Thomson36:35

       So what's your take on them- him being traded then?

    10. JRJoe Rogan36:38

        I think they offered him a tremendous amount of money at ONE. And the flyweight division has never been a moneymaker for the UFC.

    11. JTJosh Thomson36:46

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan36:46

        And Henry Cejudo beat him in a very close decision, and I think they just w- came to a position where Mighty Mouse was like, "Look, I'm not gonna make as much money in the next fight because I lost, but ONE FC's gonna pay me X amount of times more than that."

    13. JTJosh Thomson37:00

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JRJoe Rogan37:01

        And they're giving ... They gave him a huge contract, man. You know?

    15. JTJosh Thomson37:04

        Yeah.

    16. JRJoe Rogan37:05

        And they, they ha- ... Look, Chatri's amazing in what they're, they're doing over at ONE FC. I think it's great for everybody. I think it's great-

    17. JTJosh Thomson37:13

        Yep.

    18. JRJoe Rogan37:13

        ... for the sport. I think it's great that the athletes have options. I think the competition is great for the UFC. When you see someone rise and someone start smashing people over there and everybody goes, "Hey, that guy might be the best 170-pounder in the world," that's good for everybody-

    19. JTJosh Thomson37:26

        Yeah.

    20. JRJoe Rogan37:26

        ... because then you could f- set up potentially like a cross-promotional fight if some- someone's that big. And we get to find out. We get to find out who's the number one in the world. That's what it's supposed to be all about. And the more competition there is, the more big organizations there are and the more places that athletes go, it's way better for the fighters.

    21. JTJosh Thomson37:43

        Yeah. No-

    22. JRJoe Rogan37:43

        And that, that has to be taken into consideration.

    23. JTJosh Thomson37:45

        Yeah, I ... So I worked for ONE for a while and, uh, I work for Bellator now, but I was doing cage side commentary for them. And I, um, I called a couple of Timofey Nastyukin's fights, the guy that knocked out.

    24. JRJoe Rogan37:54

        Dude, he's a fucking monster.

    25. JTJosh Thomson37:56

        So if you were ... And like i- (laughs) I told Jamie, oh, I said before you came, I said, "I'm gonna call on you a couple times." (laughs) I said so, started laughing.

    26. JRJoe Rogan38:02

        When he stopped Alvarez, I was like, "That guy is a fucking killer."

    27. JTJosh Thomson38:05

        He's got dogs in his hands.

    28. JRJoe Rogan38:07

        Yeah.

    29. JTJosh Thomson38:07

        And I'm telling you right now, he either loses by submission in the first round or he knocks you out in the first round. I wanna say up until like his 10th fight or ninth fight or something like that, he'd never gone outside the first round. He either knocked you out or he lost, and he was ... His record at the time was nine or 10-1 when I was calling his fights. He had only had one loss and I think he had lost by knockout. But he's got heavy dogs, got good hips and takedown defense.

    30. JRJoe Rogan38:27

        Yeah, there he is. And, and-
11. 56:35 – 1:07:41

    Life after fighting: money, identity, and building a second career

    1. JTJosh Thomson56:35

       So, uh, that's, so to touch on, we're, uh, I was talking with, like I said, I keep bringing up Jon 'cause Jon and I talk about it a lot, obviously-

    2. JRJoe Rogan56:41

       Yeah.

    3. JTJosh Thomson56:41

       ... but is fighters after fighting, you need to have a game plan.

    4. JRJoe Rogan56:47

       Yeah.

    5. JTJosh Thomson56:47

       And, and I'm not saying it's gonna all work, okay, guys? I mean, like, that's the thing is I k- I own a fitness gym, I own a, a martial arts gym, and I do a podcast, and I, you know, and I own a clothing line. I do all these things, but all of them supplement a little bit of the income that I was making for fighting. I think the problem is, is fighters need to get into dabbling into other things. Look, whether it's a podcast or whether it's, uh, uh, owning a gym or anything li-

    6. JRJoe Rogan57:08

       Yeah.

    7. JTJosh Thomson57:08

       ... I would recommend no gym businesses. Just, I would recommend that. (laughs)

    8. JRJoe Rogan57:11

       Is it rough?

    9. JTJosh Thomson57:12

       It's rough. I mean, it's, it's the constant hustle. I've got 15 employees, so it's a lot of work. When you've got that many employees, it's like you have trainers that work for you, you have front desk people that work for you. I've got jiu-jitsu coaches that help work and help teach when I'm not there. Like they're, they're there now while I'm here with you. And so it's, it's, uh, and I owe, I owe a lot to them. Like, they, you know, they run the fort while I'm gone, you know?

    10. JRJoe Rogan57:31

        It's just a lot to manage.

    11. JTJosh Thomson57:32

        It's a lot to manage. Like, I get back to the room, you know, later today and I'ma get on the computer, look at my compu- you know, I'll look at my cameras, like how you have here.

    12. JRJoe Rogan57:38

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JTJosh Thomson57:38

        And you see, hey, everything's okay, everything's going good. Plenty of kids came to class today. Like, you know, I've got, like, over 100 kids in my martial arts gym.

    14. JRJoe Rogan57:43

        That's awesome.

    15. JTJosh Thomson57:44

        You know, a jiu-jitsu base and, uh, wrestling, I have jiu-jitsu, got DC's wrestling program in there. But all that gym business is hard. It's a constant hustle. But you have to remember it's an ebb and flow. So summers are slow 'cause indoors.

    16. JRJoe Rogan57:57

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JTJosh Thomson57:58

        No one really wants to train during the summer. Everyone's like, "I wanna go to the beach. I wanna go run at the be- I wanna go to Muscle Beach and lift." You know, like, those are the things that people... They wanna go hiking, you know, camping. Um, that's the fitness side of it. The jiu-jitsu part of it, like, sure, the jiu-jitsu nerds, they're in there. (laughs) Like, they're gonna-

    18. JRJoe Rogan58:11

        Right.

    19. JTJosh Thomson58:11

        ... be there no matter what. You know, kickboxers, anything like that, they take the vacation 'cause they, well, you know, they wanna be outside. Gym business is extremely hard. During the summer, you're slow. September, October, you pick back up. Holidays, you're slow. New Year's, you're back to getting busy 'cause New Year's resolutions. Y'all wanna be skinny up, up until May, okay?

    20. JRJoe Rogan58:29

        (laughs)

    21. JTJosh Thomson58:30

        (laughs) When, when it's Memorial Weekend and you're all in Vegas, you know, at the pool parties.

    22. JRJoe Rogan58:33

        Yep.

    23. JTJosh Thomson58:33

        That's, that's their game plan. So you just got to learn to manage your money and budget your money and figure out things to supplement the income during the times that are slow. That's really what it comes down to.

    24. JRJoe Rogan58:43

        It is a really smart thing for fighters. I mean, Brendan obviously has struck pay dirt with the Fighter and the Kid and Below the Belt and all the other shit that he does. And in a lot of ways, and also Stand Up, in a lot of ways, he's opened up the door for a lot of fighters to, to follow that model. And a lot of guys are doing podcasts now because of that. I mean, Mike, uh, Bisping has a really good podcast with Luis Gomes. And, you know, there's a l- a lot of other fighters that are getting involved in, in setting up similar things too. But I think that's really important to, to, to say that they need some... Like, you, you can't fight forever. It's not possible. So there's got to be something that you're gonna do for the rest of your life to make an income. And when you're focused singularly on one thing-

    25. JTJosh Thomson59:22

        Yeah.

    26. JRJoe Rogan59:22

        ... being the best fighter that you can be, it's very difficult to even imagine a future without fighting for a lot of these guys.

    27. JTJosh Thomson59:28

        So this is, uh, the advice that I gave myself. (inhales) So my last fight was against Patrique Pitbull, which is Patricio's brother. And, uh, you know, I, I lost. And when I lost, I kept going to the gym after.

    28. JRJoe Rogan59:40

        (laughs)

    29. JTJosh Thomson59:40

        And when I kept going to the gym and I was thinking to myself-You know, you're 40 years old, like, you know, and this, like, what are you gonna... You know, like, what's next? You know? Are you gonna fight again? Let's... And when the reality set in that, like, if you wanna do something else, your new life is gonna cost you your old one. You have to have that mentality because I can't keep going to the gym wasting two, you know, five, four or five hours a day at the gym and still try to start another career.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:00:06

        Right.

Episode duration: 2:52:31