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Lenny's PodcastWhy PMs are suddenly valuable again | Tulsee Doshi (Head of Product, Gemini)
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Episode Details
EPISODE INFO
- Released
- November 8, 2026
- Duration
- 58m
- Channel
- Lenny's Podcast
- Watch on YouTube
- ▶ Open ↗
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Tulsee Doshi is head of product for Google’s frontier AI models, including Gemini and other multimodal models, such as Nano Banana, Genie, Veo, and Lyria. *We discuss:*
- Why model development is not just engineering, but also like Snape’s potions class
- Google’s full-stack frontier AI strategy
- What PMs do inside a frontier AI lab
- Tulsee’s 60-20-20 framework for balancing what works now and what’s almost working
- How to write your first eval
- The rising value of great PMs
*Brought to you by:* WorkOS—Make your app enterprise-ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and more: https://workos.com/lenny DX—Engineering intelligence for the AI era: https://getdx.com/?utm_source=lenny&utm_medium=sponsorship&utm_campaign=q42026 *Episode transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-it-actually-takes-to-build-frontier *Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts:* https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0 *Highlights:* https://lennyspodcast.com/mostreplayedmoments *Where to find Tulsee Doshi:*
- X: https://x.com/tulseedoshi
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tulsee-doshi
*Where to find Lenny:*
- Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
- X: https://twitter.com/lennysan
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/
*In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Teaser (01:08) What people misunderstand about how models are built (06:28) Google’s strategy in the AI race (09:57) AI safety, monitoring, and strengthening cyberdefenses (14:10) Balancing fast launches with great user experiences (17:02) Why the model itself has a UX (19:21) Why product managers are becoming more valuable (21:24) The skills that matter for research PMs (23:04) How to build your first eval (24:37) Getting better at judging a model’s vibes (26:15) Improving skin tone representation with better evals (28:25) Evaluating the full experience, not just the model (30:38) From crowdsourced flash teams to agent swarms (33:13) The 60-20-20 rule for building ahead of model capabilities (35:46) Keeping your product adaptable as models improve (36:42) What an AI harness actually is (37:30) Upskilling PMs through shared skills and workshops (41:18) Building the habit of asking, “Can AI do this for me?” (42:38) Google’s opportunity to build a personal AI assistant (44:10) Burnout, meaningful work, and the pressure to do more (47:44) Avoiding AI slop (49:30) How AI is changing the PM role (51:02) Lightning round and final thoughts *Referenced:*
- Nano Banana: https://aistudio.google.com/models/nano-banana
- Lyria: https://deepmind.google/models/lyria
- Gemma: https://deepmind.google/models/gemma
- Gemini Audio: https://deepmind.google/models/gemini-audio
- Severus Snape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severus_Snape
- Emmanuel Ameisen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ameisen
- Gemini 4 Argon: our next era of frontier intelligence: https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/models-and-research/gemini-models/gemini-4-argon
- Inside OpenAI | Logan Kilpatrick (head of developer relations): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-openai-logan-kilpatrick-head
- Madhavi Sewak on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madhavisewak
- Wiz: https://www.wiz.io
- Scan for Good: Using AI to discover and fix high-priority exposures across public services and critical infrastructure: https://www.wiz.io/blog/scan-for-good-critical-ai-exposures
- All-In: Trump’s Super Intelligence Summit, AI Safety Accord, GDP Beats, Midterm Predictions: https://www.youtube.com/v/ZJKs08oU1zg
- Google AI Studio: https://aistudio.google.com/onboarding
- Dots: https://chatgpt.com/features/dots
- Genie: https://deepmind.google/models/genie
- Veo: https://aistudio.google.com/models/veo
- Omni: https://gemini.google/overview/video-generation
- Flow: https://flow.google.com
- NotebookLM: https://notebook.google.com
- Antigravity: https://antigravity.google/
- Eli Collins on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elidcollins
- Developing the Monk Skin Tone Scale: https://skintone.google/the-scale
- Michael Bernstein on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mibernstein
...References continued at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-it-actually-takes-to-build-frontier *Recommended books:*
- Exhalation: https://www.amazon.com/Exhalation/dp/1529014492
- Creativity, Inc.: Overcoming the Unseen Forces That Stand in the Way of True Inspiration: https://www.amazon.com/Creativity-Inc-Expanded-Overcoming-Inspiration/dp/0593594649
- Throne of Glass: https://www.amazon.com/Throne-Glass-1/dp/1639730958
- A Court of Thorns and Roses: https://www.amazon.com/Court-Thorns-Roses-Sarah-Maas/dp/1635575567
_Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
SPEAKERS
Tulsee Doshi
guestHead of Product for Google’s frontier models (Gemini), with experience in responsible AI and model evaluation/behavior.
Lenny Rachitsky
hostHost of Lenny’s Podcast and interviewer focused on product management and technology.
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this episode of Lenny's Podcast, featuring Tulsee Doshi and Lenny Rachitsky, Why PMs are suddenly valuable again | Tulsee Doshi (Head of Product, Gemini) explores How Google’s Gemini PM thinks about frontier models and product Tulsee Doshi explains that even with clear goals, frontier model training remains partly unpredictable, so PMs must understand a model’s “vibes” and productize the surprising strengths that emerge.
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