How To SPOT A Narcissist When DATING! (Watch Out For This)| Ramani Durvasula & Lewis Howes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:00 The bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love?

Lewis Howes 0:02 Is that possible?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:03 Again, we're like-

Lewis Howes 0:03 Besides loving themselves

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:04 ... lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, "I love this person."

Lewis Howes 0:09 Oh, wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:09 Many people are gaslighted, will start wondering, "Maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness." And at that point, the gas-

Lewis Howes 0:17 I think you gotta have a dream. The School of Greatness. Really? [laughs] Yeah. Please welcome Lewis Howes. Why is narcissism such a, a, a big topic, especially right now in our society?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:29 It's interesting. It wasn't for a very long time. I mean, this is... It's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it.

Lewis Howes 0:36 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:36 Like, I was like that nerd-

Lewis Howes 0:36 You were like a nerd when you were like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:37 I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about, and everyone drive... It was literally back room of a lab, and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. That's... I mean, I geeked out. I was like, "This is fascinating." And then a lot of things happened. Uh, you know, if anyone ever asks me, this is my theory on it, is I think it's interesting. If you, uh, if you... There's a book, um, from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lasch called The Culture of Narcissism.

Lewis Howes 1:02 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02 And in that book, he really gets... And this is the '70s, okay? And he really gets into issues like materialism, and also the falling apart of, um, American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. Like, this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in, in mental health.

Lewis Howes 1:28 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28 And then reality TV happened.

Lewis Howes 1:31 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32 Social media happened.

Lewis Howes 1:33 And we had to witness it all.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34 Yeah, and we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now.

Lewis Howes 1:37 Political dramas and fights and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40 Lots of... A- and, and materialism is on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media, and reality TV, that kind of triple threat-

Lewis Howes 1:49 [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:50 ... where everything was about shameless self-promotion.

Lewis Howes 1:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:54 Everything was about validation, seeking, "Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours." And it was that... It was... I'll never forget the day, actually, I, I was, uh... when I s- someone told me about social media. It was in that space between MySpace and Facebook.

Lewis Howes 2:09 MySpace, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:10 And I had small, small children at the time, and I think I was up late, and somebody said, "You, you gotta look at this thing called Facebook." Right? And I'm like, "I don't know what this is." And so I... At the time, I wasn't even married, so I've literally no social life. And I look at it, and, and I'm... And it's that moment, that penny drop moment, where I could feel that dread in my stomach, as though, like, a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, "Oh, my God. This narcissism thing is about to blow up."

Lewis Howes 2:39 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:40 Because before that, think about it, if you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house.

Lewis Howes 2:47 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:47 Right? Like, no one was gonna... You had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men at that, in that era.

Lewis Howes 2:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:54 And then other people, like, would get it by, like, going to social events, going to parties-

Lewis Howes 2:59 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 2:59 ... maybe succeeding at something, but it was a different game.

Lewis Howes 3:03 Going to the gym maybe or something, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:04 It... Maybe going to the gym, but now all of it. Ebe- excel- excelling at something visible, like sports or performing-

Lewis Howes 3:09 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:09 ... or, or like, um, singing or something like that. But then I was like, "Oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are gonna be able to get validation just sitting at home?"

Lewis Howes 3:18 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:19 And I thought, "This narcissism thing's gonna blow up." I... That was 2008 when I had that revelation.

Lewis Howes 3:25 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:25 I started telling people, and, you know, people said like, "Oh, honey, you're, you're just, you're, you're, you're running off in your head. Get some sleep. Like, you're acting crazy." And I said, "No, no, no. [laughs] This is gonna blow up." And then it blew up. And at around that time-

Lewis Howes 3:37 Wow

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:37 ... we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows, like, you know, Survivor and things like that. I'm like, "Hmm, this is interesting." And then we'd start seeing more and more and more of the attention-seeking-

Lewis Howes 3:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:46 ... reality TV housewife-type shows and all of that.

Lewis Howes 3:49 The Bachelor and, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 3:50 The Bachelor. And I, I thought, "Oh, no, no, no." And then, and then the political winds changed, and the word came into the, into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied, like a very specific-

Lewis Howes 4:02 And no one cared about it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:03 ... Nobody cared about it.

Lewis Howes 4:03 And then all of a sudden it's mainstream.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:05 And then the world changed, and it became mainstream.

Lewis Howes 4:07 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:07 Exactly. And but at this, another thing that was happening too was this, um... I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at, um, personality issues because I had... I was working with folks who were working in community clinics, and they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say... And they would look frazzled. And I'd say, "Hey, what's up?" And they'll say, "Some of these patients, they're so terrible, and they're ruining everyone's lives." And what we came to find out was that there were some patients who come in entitled and grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, "That's interesting. These people-

Lewis Howes 4:40 Huh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:40 ... are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good healthcare to other people, they themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them-

Lewis Howes 4:46 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 4:46 ... so they're not getting good healthcare." And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. They kept... It's like they were all talking about the same relationship. And I thought, "This is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism," because it's clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you, once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced. Some were splitting up. Some were saying, "I'm gonna set boundaries."

Lewis Howes 5:09 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:09 I mean, it was, it was insta change. And they said, "We were in couples therapy for five years, and always about marriage is hard. You gotta communicate." I'm like, "Communicating with a narcissist is, I don't know."

Lewis Howes 5:20 It's like, it's not hard. It's impossible.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:20 It's like it's impossible. It's screaming into an abyss. Like, there's no point.

Lewis Howes 5:23 Is there hope for, uh, people in marriages if they're in a m- a relationship with a narcissist to actually heal the relationship and improve it? Or is it just gonna be hard the rest of your life?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:34 Go- going on a probability basis, the answer is no.

Lewis Howes 5:37 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:37 I think it's gonna be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic, I mean, we're talking about daily commitment, multi-

Lewis Howes 5:47 On the person who is a narcissist.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:48 The person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to, they have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. I... It, it's fascinating because I have worked with man- I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice for a long time now, you know, have been narcissistic.

Lewis Howes 6:13 Why would they even come to, uh, work with you if they're narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:17 Because something's going wrong in their lives. Their marriage is blowing up. Um, there's, they're having some sort of public shaming. Their career isn't going well.

Lewis Howes 6:24 They have to, essentially-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:26 Lawsuit. They feel the world is against them And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy, um, and somebody's wanting to complain, right? Every so often they're given an ultimatum maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair.

Lewis Howes 6:41 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:42 And then they're told, that wife or husband or p- partner or spouse will say, "We're not staying together unless you get therapy," which is a fool's errand because if they're, if someone else is telling them to do it, even if someone, even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change.

Lewis Howes 6:58 Personality doesn't change.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:59 No. Mm-mm. No.

Lewis Howes 6:59 Unless you're, like, doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:02 But even then

Lewis Howes 7:03 ... and even then.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:03 Listen, I'm, I, listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed.

Lewis Howes 7:10 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:10 I'm a little bit more, a, a little, I'm a little bit more confident now.

Lewis Howes 7:13 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:13 That's not my personality. That's just time served.

Lewis Howes 7:16 Right. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:16 You know? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 7:16 It's like I put in more reps.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:18 Yes. I-

Lewis Howes 7:18 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:18 ... I, yeah, I put in more reps, so I'm like, now I know I can do this thing.

Lewis Howes 7:21 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:22 Right? But it's not that. I'm, I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I'm an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am.

Lewis Howes 7:30 When is our personality shaped?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:32 Sh- well, there's two pieces to personality. We're born, the, the sort of the genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament.

Lewis Howes 7:39 Our temperament.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:39 Our temperament. Our temperament.

Lewis Howes 7:40 So you're born and you're either a crier or not a crier-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:42 You're either-

Lewis Howes 7:43 ... or you're-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:43 To, I'll, I can make it ultra simple.

Lewis Howes 7:45 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:45 Like, you know, there's some kids out there who have really difficult temperaments. They're born into the world difficult. Mm, talk to a parent. They, they h- they, they're kids who are difficult to soothe. They're, to m- to make them stop crying, to help them sleep. As time goes on, they're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy, fighty. They get to school, they can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them.

Lewis Howes 8:10 [laughs] Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:11 So these kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, "Sit down. Stop that. Don't do that." And there's even this vibe these kids get. Like, nobody really wants to spend time with them, right?

Lewis Howes 8:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:22 'Cause they're a h- real handful. So-

Lewis Howes 8:24 Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:26 Yeah

Lewis Howes 8:26 ... can't really change that when you're five.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:27 No, you can't. But to the, the difficult temperament's a risk factor for the adult narcissistic personality.

Lewis Howes 8:33 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:33 Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk, but it's definitely when we tell that story backwards, every narcissistic client I've ever worked with, without exception, had a difficult temperament as a child.

Lewis Howes 8:46 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:46 So that either they w- s- e- every so often I'd get lucky. They'd, we'd phone the parent during therapy and say, "Can we talk about this?" Sometimes they'd talk, ask the parent, and the parent would come clean on that and say, "Yeah, you were a real h-

Lewis Howes 8:57 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:57 ... you had..." 'Cause you had siblings, right? So they'd compare-

Lewis Howes 8:59 Right, right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:59 ... them to siblings. Some siblings have this great, easy temperament. It's not quite, it's, it's, so temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, "Wow, I have such a similar personality to them."

Lewis Howes 9:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:15 That's the genetic side.

Lewis Howes 9:16 Okay. And the other-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:17 All the rest of it is, is shaped by the world.

Lewis Howes 9:20 Environment, parents-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:21 It's all environment

Lewis Howes 9:22 ... society-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:22 It's all environment

Lewis Howes 9:22 ... how you were treated, and yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:24 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 9:24 What you're exposed to.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:25 Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 9:26 So if you had a, let's say a challenging temperament growing up-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:29 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 9:30 ... is there hope for you to, you know, im- I guess shift your personality into a different style with environment and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:38 I think so. I think so.

Lewis Howes 9:39 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:39 I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met where they're at.

Lewis Howes 9:43 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:43 So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy, and you get them into athletics.

Lewis Howes 9:48 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:48 Or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that, and you really are with them.

Lewis Howes 9:55 A channel, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:55 Instead of saying, "You're being so bad. You're so difficult," like, "Wow, look at that rocket you built," or like, "Oh my gosh, you ran 10 miles today," or, "You threw the ball," or like-

Lewis Howes 10:03 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:03 ... "This is great." Like, "Let's do it together." And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've, I've heard of some... R- this is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a, a, a bolus of energy.

Lewis Howes 10:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:21 And then they would, and then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them, might go-

Lewis Howes 10:25 Right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:26 ... camping with them or whatever.

Lewis Howes 10:27 Interesting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:28 So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, um, they feel like they have a safe base-

Lewis Howes 10:35 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:35 ... to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver-

Lewis Howes 10:37 They can relax more into it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:38 ... they, they a- and, and they have success experiences, right?

Lewis Howes 10:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:41 So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really, like, they feel loved no matter what.

Lewis Howes 10:47 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:47 Whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved, and that they have these other outlets-

Lewis Howes 10:52 That's cool

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:53 ... and that the, a school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have that things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number of kids-

Lewis Howes 11:00 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:00 ... I know who got that line up.

Lewis Howes 11:02 Right. I mean, who had, like, all the support-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:03 All the support

Lewis Howes 11:04 ... and love-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:04 Yeah

Lewis Howes 11:04 ... and that we love you no matter what. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:05 Mm-mm.

Lewis Howes 11:06 It's very challenging. Uh, it's interesting because I, I interviewed Kobe Bryant, um, before he passed obviously, and he, he said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in, like, this summer competition league. And he said, "My father told me, 'No matter what, I'm gonna love you. Whether you score zero points or you're the highest scorer, I'm gonna love you no matter what you do. No matter how good or how bad you are, I love you no matter what.'" And he said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, "I'm gonna go out and, and,"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:41 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 11:41 ... "and go for it. Um, no matter what happens, I'm loved," is the way he explained it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:47 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 11:47 And I thought that was interesting. But, uh, not a lot of people have had, like, the school support and parent support-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:52 Right

Lewis Howes 11:52 ... and sibling support and, like, the encouragement.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:55 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 11:55 But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth. Is that right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:04 So every human being, y- has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting, you know, a s- like again, a safe base-

Lewis Howes 12:12 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:12 ... a safe place of attachment, um, a sense of being loved no matter what.

Lewis Howes 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:17 Yeah, their behavior could be called out. Like, "No, you cannot tear up the living room."

Lewis Howes 12:20 Whatever.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:20 "That behavior is not okay. I love you." You know? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 12:24 Yeah. I love you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:24 "I love you whether you get the 13 points or the no points." Just like a consistent-

Lewis Howes 12:26 You're still grounded, but I love you. Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:28 You're still grounded, you know, I love you. You know? And so that sort of consistency and safety, but it's, it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014, and in this paper they were talking about how do you, basically it's how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid? One thing we're seeing a little bit this, right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing. Just-

Lewis Howes 12:50 Celebrated for just being

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:51 ... celebrated for, like, "You're just so great." And it's, the, we... You're saying, "Well, what should we tell the kids if they're not great?" Well, great means something, right?

Lewis Howes 13:00 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:00 Great is excelling. So you love a child.

Lewis Howes 13:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:06 You cultivate their strengths, but the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be, they're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over, and, "You're all that. You're all that. You shouldn't, you're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world." Well, then they get to adulthood and the slings and arrows happen.

Lewis Howes 13:28 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:28 And they are not having it, and that's where you see... That's, that's, the, that on top of everything else can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child.

Lewis Howes 13:37 Interesting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:37 Just overindulge. And what happens is they're almost o- they're overindulged for their outsides, and, "You're s- you're so special," but their, their emotional world isn't nourished. So nobody is sitting-

Lewis Howes 13:48 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:48 ... with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, "Come on, let's all be happy."

Lewis Howes 13:53 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 13:53 You know, it's a lot of that, and that's a dangerous game to play with.

Lewis Howes 13:56 Would you s- would you say with your research if, um, kids grew up in a healthy family, let's say it's, they got all the tools and resources-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:04 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:04 ... and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them a, you know, discipline, but love-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:10 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 14:10 ... and all these things in the way that, the best way you could.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:14 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 14:15 Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety and... Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated? Or how does it actually happen?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:28 So the problem, if you, if they, someone had all the fundamentals-

Lewis Howes 14:31 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:31 ... right? The safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma-

Lewis Howes 14:36 Great values

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:37 ... the, the great values, all, you know, all of those things, supportive educational environment, all of that, you still will have a handful, but you will have-

Lewis Howes 14:45 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:45 ... dropped the probability from here down to here.

Lewis Howes 14:47 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:48 Right? It's, it's a horse race, right? You, you've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Narcissism is a, it's, it... Creating adult narcissism is a complex interblend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions.

Lewis Howes 15:02 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:03 And there's a range of conditions that can result in, result in adulthood narcissism. At the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and, and experiences trauma, uh, you know, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, in, 'cause that results in inconsistent caregivers, right? And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adulthood-

Lewis Howes 15:26 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:26 ... narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You see what I'm saying?

Lewis Howes 15:34 Majority of people. Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:35 So we're talking about-

Lewis Howes 15:35 So you could

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:35 ... risk factors.

Lewis Howes 15:36 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:36 You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over, like, "You're so great. You're so special. You're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing," that's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love, Kobe Bryant's father, "I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up."

Lewis Howes 15:57 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:58 That, it, now imagine that happening 1,000 times, 10,000 times.

Lewis Howes 16:01 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:01 "I love you w- I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight As. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you whatever." The child learns that they're, all love is conditional, which is really, that's transactional, basically.

Lewis Howes 16:15 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:15 All narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional.

Lewis Howes 16:18 Interesting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:18 You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment, and attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life.

Lewis Howes 16:27 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:27 It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One, singular. You need that, that person who is there, who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe... It's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the important of the, importance of that secure attachment, that, as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism.

Lewis Howes 16:53 So if you have a secure-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:54 You're less likely to be narcissistic

Lewis Howes 16:55 ... secure attachment, you're less likely. If you don't have that-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:56 But if you have an anxious attachment, and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy-

Lewis Howes 17:06 Oh, I see

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:06 ... drops them o- and they lose it, then person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again. Like, almost like, "How could you leave me?"

Lewis Howes 17:17 "You abandoned me for-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:18 Exactly

Lewis Howes 17:18 ... five hours," basically. [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:19 And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with a narcissistic style-

Lewis Howes 17:24 Interesting

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:24 ... in, in adulthood. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 17:27 Can you break down the differences between narcissists, um, psychopaths-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:33 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 17:33 ... sociopaths-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:34 Mm

Lewis Howes 17:34 ... and then also how you spot them?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:36 Mm. So there's a big difference.

Lewis Howes 17:38 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:39 I- I- If, if I was at a chalkboard here-

Lewis Howes 17:41 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:41 ... I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles, okay?

Lewis Howes 17:44 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:45 Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy, lots, okay? The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the, um, always working the angles, the exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement, all absolutely overlapping.

Lewis Howes 18:03 Whoa.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:03 So you might be wondering, "Then what's the difference?" Here's the difference.

Lewis Howes 18:06 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:07 Narcissistic people are insecure, and they are con-

Lewis Howes 18:10 Very insecure, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:11 Very insecure.

Lewis Howes 18:12 Gosh, that's so-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:12 And lots of feelings of inadequacy, okay? So but that's all happening at an unconscious level, but I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomachache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like, they're, they, there's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's gonna get blown off and we're gonna be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism.

Lewis Howes 18:36 Oh my God.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:36 Like if I were to say-

Lewis Howes 18:37 They can't take feedback

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:38 ... "Hey," like, uh, "Mm, yeah, it's interesting, you got some dust on your shirt," and you're like... Oh, really? And you start coming at me. It's like such a ma-

Lewis Howes 18:44 "Oh no, you got this on here."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:45 Yeah, right.

Lewis Howes 18:46 "So what are you talking about me?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:46 You got that. Like, yeah, yeah.

Lewis Howes 18:47 "Look at this and this."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:48 Yeah, yes.

Lewis Howes 18:48 And criticizing you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:49 Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against the shame.

Lewis Howes 18:51 Eeh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:52 That's the narcissist's game. Psychopath doesn't go there.

Lewis Howes 18:54 Psych-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:55 Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure.

Lewis Howes 18:58 They're calm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:58 Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part-

Lewis Howes 19:01 Pff

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:01 ... of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system.

Lewis Howes 19:04 Uh-huh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:04 This is the, this is the involuntary part of our nervous system, and it's, it's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which you know is fight or flight or freeze.

Lewis Howes 19:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:14 And that fight, flight, freeze, and there's even a fourth part to it called fawn, which we could talk about.

Lewis Howes 19:19 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:19 But that, that autonomic reaction, that like, boom-

Lewis Howes 19:22 Pff

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:22 ... adrenaline, got, you know, eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I, I don't know, if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a $100 bill hanging out their wallet, never could I ever... Like, I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, "No." You know? 'Cause I have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate would maybe go up-

Lewis Howes 19:47 They would not think

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:48 ... maybe nothing

Lewis Howes 19:49 ... they'd just take it, steal it and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:50 So they have no anxiety. They're-

Lewis Howes 19:52 No excitement around it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:53 ... no excitement, no anxiety, and they're very stress resistant. In that way, that's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're gonna be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you ra- you're able to say, "Cut those 100,000 jobs," and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon-

Lewis Howes 20:06 Wow

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:06 ... because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery [laughs] thing. It's, it, it really is, but there is-

Lewis Howes 20:16 There's the-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:16 ... a coldness and a callousness-

Lewis Howes 20:18 Interesting

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:18 ... because there is almost like no-

Lewis Howes 20:20 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:20 ... capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.

Lewis Howes 20:24 Interesting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:24 And, and w- and psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure, and profit, and mostly by power. They solely wanna dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths.

Lewis Howes 20:40 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:40 Yeah. The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths 'cause they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy. It, the psychopaths don't have that.

Lewis Howes 21:01 They're not insecure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:02 They're not insecure, no. I mean, if you, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get do- g- to get done.

Lewis Howes 21:09 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:09 You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you.

Lewis Howes 21:14 To get rid of, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:15 Exactly, or they'll calmly have someone say like, um... I'll literally look at you if I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like... And I'd be calm and I'd go... And then I, I don't know whether that means you'd kill them-

Lewis Howes 21:26 No, you'd generally taunt

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:26 ... or fire them-

Lewis Howes 21:27 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:27 ... or whatever, but no problem with that.

Lewis Howes 21:30 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:30 And very easily-

Lewis Howes 21:30 They don't have the emo- the emotion. They don't have empathy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:32 Emotions, yeah. No empathy, narcissists-

Lewis Howes 21:33 Does narcissists have em- empathy?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:35 Narcissists have... We, we tend to say, "Oh, they don't have empathy." They have what we call, I like to call it, y- instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy.

Lewis Howes 21:44 Gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:44 So narcissists get what empathy is. They know like-

Lewis Howes 21:47 They use it against you

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:48 ... they use, they use it-

Lewis Howes 21:49 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:49 ... they use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily use it against you, but like-

Lewis Howes 21:53 Pff

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:53 ... if they want to get you to do something, "Oh man, I heard your mom's sick."

Lewis Howes 21:58 Oh, man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:58 "You, oh my gosh, how's she doing? Oh, I'm so sorry." Like, "It's rough. You know, my mom was sick."

Lewis Howes 22:03 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:03 "She, she was really sick for a while, too." I get all of that. And then we'll-

Lewis Howes 22:06 Just to build rapport and like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:06 You know, it's a rapport and then they're getting something from you.

Lewis Howes 22:09 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:09 Right? So it feels like empathy, you know? And especially when you first meet them. That's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic.

Lewis Howes 22:18 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:18 They know what the fe- they know what's right. They kn- or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it.

Lewis Howes 22:27 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:28 But they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. "Oh, I need something for him, from him. Somebody said his mom's sick, so let me, let me work the mom angle here."

Lewis Howes 22:39 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:39 "Because that's gonna help him feel better." What they don't have is any regard for... So they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you, and someone's like... The next week when they're fully done with you and say, "Hey, his mom got sicker." And, and you'd be like, "And so, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it?" So it's very cold when they're done. So they, it's, and that's why people say, "Well, don't tell me they don't have empathy 'cause it seemed like they cried at that movie, or they were really understanding my feelings." Odds are they needed something at that point.

Lewis Howes 23:09 So what was the most, uh, the scariest narcissist? What was it called? Or the most-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:15 Malignant

Lewis Howes 23:15 ... most, um, dangerous-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:17 Mali-

Lewis Howes 23:17 ... malignant narcissist. Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:19 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 23:19 So can you explain again what that, what that is?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:21 So let's talk about, let's, let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay?

Lewis Howes 23:25 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:25 And the inner core of narcissism is this variable e- empathy, usually a lack of empathy.

Lewis Howes 23:30 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:30 Entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. Um, the inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed-

Lewis Howes 23:46 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:47 ... or stressed. A, a sense of shame, so if anyone points out a flaw in them they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism, so if anyone points out anything they, ah, they come at them. Blame shifting and responsibility shifting.

Lewis Howes 24:02 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:02 So they blame other people for what, you know, what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric.

Lewis Howes 24:10 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:10 Everything is about them.

Lewis Howes 24:12 Pff.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:12 Everything is self-serving.

Lewis Howes 24:14 Insecure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:14 Um, very, deeply insecure. Deep, lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm c- talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well, then I can't be inadequate, right?

Lewis Howes 24:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:33 And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors.

Lewis Howes 24:43 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:43 And those are, are, are presentations. Charm.

Lewis Howes 24:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:47 Charisma. Confidence. curiosity.

Lewis Howes 24:51 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:52 Um, and they also are-

Lewis Howes 24:55 Can you have those things and not be narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:57 You can.

Lewis Howes 24:57 'Cause I'm a very curious person. I ca- you know, my-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:00 You can. So here, here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious and it, it... When you can find an empathic, charismatic-

Lewis Howes 25:07 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:07 ... person, behold to them. They are the unicorns of the human being. Like, you really are like-

Lewis Howes 25:13 Someone who's confident and caring

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:13 ... when I meet the, when I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person-

Lewis Howes 25:21 It's a unicorn

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:21 ... I do. I literally am like, "Okay, everyone."

Lewis Howes 25:23 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:24 And I, I can tell it doesn't happen often, and I'm usually like, I look goo goo eyes 'cause I'm thinking. And then, of course, I'm poking at it. I'm like, "No, no, no."

Lewis Howes 25:32 No, let's see. Let's see.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:33 "I'm gonna find, I'm gonna find what's wrong with it." Every so often I find it, and I'm like, it, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't hap-

Lewis Howes 25:38 Wow

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:38 ... happened often. But here's the thing, the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, um, there's also comfort-

Lewis Howes 25:46 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:46 ... that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers, "I can take care of it all." They'll be very generous. They'll-

Lewis Howes 25:53 Um, up front, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:54 You know, uh, all, it's all a front game, right?

Lewis Howes 25:56 Yeah. Gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:56 So what happens then, the curtain comes down-

Lewis Howes 25:59 Oh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:59 ... across all your common sense, and you miss the little things.

Lewis Howes 26:03 And you're like, "This is amazing."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:03 Yeah. And people, and if you-

Lewis Howes 26:04 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:05 Either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and the all the other stuff, or you justify it.

Lewis Howes 26:12 You just- well, they, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:13 They, they, they, you know, "Well, he's got a big job," or, "She's really stressed," or, "She doesn't mean that," or, "That's just their culture." I was lis- I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how, um, people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only... It's, it's contemptuous interrupting. Like-

Lewis Howes 26:41 What's that mean? Like dismissive interrupting or-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:42 Like, it's dismissive. Like, um, okay, all right, you know, you're talking and then I c- I not only cut in, but it's basically like, "Uh, you know what you were just talking about."

Lewis Howes 26:49 Your point of view doesn't matter or yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:51 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 26:51 You're, you're an idiot.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:52 You're an idiot.

Lewis Howes 26:52 And this is, I know what's really... Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:54 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 26:54 Okay. So you, you share some of these signs of, um, malignant narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:59 No, that's... Okay, so c- let's go back to the core.

Lewis Howes 27:01 Yes, core.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:01 So we got the core of l- lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about.

Lewis Howes 27:04 Entitlement, yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:05 Yes. Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Lewis Howes 27:08 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:09 Not all narcissists are created... We really do need a whiteboard here.

Lewis Howes 27:11 Wow, that's great.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:12 Like, I'd be writing notes up there.

Lewis Howes 27:14 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:14 Because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of '57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the, the big, charming, confident, "I'm the one. I'm the best," no insight, very little empathy kind of, but very, like, big salesperson-y.

Lewis Howes 27:37 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:37 That's the grandiose narcissist.

Lewis Howes 27:39 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:39 But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing. They are more controlling. They're a little bit more scary. They're sadistic. They're paranoid. Um-

Lewis Howes 27:58 What if they have both of those things?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:00 Usually, they can.

Lewis Howes 28:02 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:02 They can. But- and what would... That's a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end, and then once you cross the threshold and walk th- all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant-

Lewis Howes 28:16 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:16 ... manipulative, scary, and, and when we see-

Lewis Howes 28:19 Controlling

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:19 ... controlling. When we see manipulative narcissism, uh, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often, they're more, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help.

Lewis Howes 28:34 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:34 From being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories-

Lewis Howes 28:39 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:39 ... a lot, especially a lot in the Me Too era. A lot of those folks were malignant narcissists.

Lewis Howes 28:43 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:43 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 28:45 So what happens if you're with a narcissist? You, you, maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your, your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 28:54 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 28:56 ... check, check, check, they've got a lot of these things. But you're, you know, the first six months was, seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain, you know, pull back and some of these things are coming out, and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:10 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 29:10 Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:14 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 29:15 ... we've spotted it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:16 Yep.

Lewis Howes 29:17 What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:21 No, no.

Lewis Howes 29:21 So trying to change them-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:22 Mm-mm

Lewis Howes 29:22 ... is not gonna happen.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:24 It's a fool's errand.

Lewis Howes 29:24 So does it mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and, and, and rip the Band-Aid and get out? Or how does it-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:29 So, well, it's not that simple

Lewis Howes 29:30 ... how do we navigate? Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:31 Right? We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs.

Lewis Howes 29:35 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:35 Um, let's say s- let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children.

Lewis Howes 29:41 They got kids. Ugh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:41 What if it's their family of origin and they're like, "I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling." People say, "Well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family." So I'm not gonna sit here-

Lewis Howes 29:51 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:52 ... and tell people that, "Oh, you just gotta always go." In fact, my s- my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist, and I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, "Well, get up and go," like you said, "Rip off the Band-Aid." So if you're... A- and neither path is easy, but-

Lewis Howes 30:12 Right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:12 ... in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse, and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best m- outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them. That's, that, that-

Lewis Howes 30:31 Completely blocking, cutting off

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:32 ... completely done. And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If you, if there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to-

Lewis Howes 30:39 Eliminate it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:39 ... have no more toxic gas. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 30:40 If you have a little bit, you're just gonna feel a little bit of pain consistently.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:43 You, you just gotta remove the thing.

Lewis Howes 30:43 It's gonna be holding onto it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:44 Correct.

Lewis Howes 30:44 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:44 But a lot of people don't have that, so the biggest-

Lewis Howes 30:47 [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:47 The, the, if you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change.

Lewis Howes 30:55 This is who they are.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 30:55 This is who they are. This is it. So, and I, then I tell people, I have something called the DEEP technique that I, I talk about, and the DEEP technique is when I tell people, "If you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage- Don't explain, don't personalize. So DEEP, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you're, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, y- you, it's like you're in a deposition. Yes. No. Okay. Sounds good. Sure. Now-

Lewis Howes 31:32 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:32 ... narcissists don't like that because they love the fight.

Lewis Howes 31:35 So they're gonna keep coming, digging and digging in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:36 They're gonna, they're gonna bait you. They're gonna bait you, and they, when I tell you when they bait you, they, they don't play.

Lewis Howes 31:41 They go for every-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:42 They go for everything that's gonna make it-

Lewis Howes 31:44 Make something else. They'll make your stuff up

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:45 ... make it about your kids. They, they start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it

Lewis Howes 31:49 Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:51 Mm-hmm. And so then at some people, people take that bait, and then the narcissist is like, "Game on." You know? And they're all in.

Lewis Howes 31:57 I got you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:58 I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy.

Lewis Howes 32:05 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:05 And, um, phenomenal study that came out this year, and over, over, over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, it's, this is, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter.

Lewis Howes 32:25 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:26 And they want the fight, so they bait you, so you gotta be made of steel. Don't defend.

Lewis Howes 32:30 Man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:30 Don't engage.

Lewis Howes 32:30 This is crazy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:32 Don't explain to not get into the fight.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:33 Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome, you just don't know it, because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me or-

Lewis Howes 32:45 This person DM'd me or this person's-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:47 Exactly

Lewis Howes 32:47 ... hitting on me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:48 They're always trying to g- like, they-

Lewis Howes 32:50 Gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:50 ... they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they be incredibly jealous of their partners.

Lewis Howes 33:03 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:03 There's a difference-

Lewis Howes 33:04 They're so jealous of-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:04 ... between jealousy and pathological jealousy

Lewis Howes 33:06 ... what's theirs.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:07 There's two different things. Okay?

Lewis Howes 33:08 What's theirs.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:08 So jealousy's normal.

Lewis Howes 33:10 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:10 Jeal- We are a, actually, we're a pair bonded species, we human beings.

Lewis Howes 33:14 Uh-huh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:14 We're, we, we, we like, we pretty much are about generally, normatively have sex with one person.

Lewis Howes 33:20 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:20 People are like, "No, that person cheated on me." I said, "Yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you."

Lewis Howes 33:26 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:26 They're still mono- sexually monogamous.

Lewis Howes 33:28 With one person at that moment.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:28 Just happened they weren't banging you.

Lewis Howes 33:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:30 They were banging someone else.

Lewis Howes 33:31 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:31 You were on paper in a relationship with them. You came, you-

Lewis Howes 33:33 Hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:33 ... you went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay?

Lewis Howes 33:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:37 But we tend to be pair bonded, we tend to be monogamous. All right? So jealousy is a threat to that.

Lewis Howes 33:44 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:45 Think of it Darwinianly, right?

Lewis Howes 33:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:47 If, if I'm in a, if I'm in a relationship and a th- a threat comes in, right, normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy.

Lewis Howes 33:55 Normal.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:55 Right? I'm with a person, if somebody is, comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right?

Lewis Howes 34:02 Right, right, right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:02 That's all the Darwinian-

Lewis Howes 34:04 Gotcha

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:04 ... Darwinian sub-

Lewis Howes 34:04 Okay

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:05 ... reproduction.

Lewis Howes 34:05 Pathological jealousy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:06 Pathological jealousy-

Lewis Howes 34:08 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:08 ... though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and, um-

Lewis Howes 34:12 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:13 ... and negative mood states and all that.

Lewis Howes 34:15 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:15 Like jealousy doesn't feel good, but it, I, I always tell, when I've worked with couples, they're like, "I'm jealous." I'm like, "That's good. That means you still got skin in the game."

Lewis Howes 34:22 Right, right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:22 Like, 'cause when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and, or worked with individuals and they'll say, "I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband." I kind of feel sad 'cause I'm like, "Yeah, this thing, this thing's kind of-"

Lewis Howes 34:32 Oh, gotcha

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:32 ... kind of done-ish.

Lewis Howes 34:33 I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:38 It's, yeah, but that, that's-

Lewis Howes 34:39 And-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:39 ... we're talking about pathological jealousy, right?

Lewis Howes 34:41 Yeah, gotcha.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:41 So I think of my partner.

Lewis Howes 34:42 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:43 I- ironically on our, on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were gonna to see who had, uh, hit on him o- and this-

Lewis Howes 34:49 Oh, okay

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:49 ... this, this dude is so loyal it, it levels it to a whole new level. And I, I remember thinking in the drive, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy.

Lewis Howes 34:56 Oh, okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:57 I, I don't, like, huh, he, does he even live in this country?

Lewis Howes 35:00 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:00 And so I'm thinking that's, and I was like, that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling it.

Lewis Howes 35:04 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:05 Like, I still-

Lewis Howes 35:05 You care

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:06 ... got a dog in the fight. I care.

Lewis Howes 35:07 But it doesn't mean you're like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:08 I, but I, my homie-

Lewis Howes 35:09 ... for days now letting it stress you out and like talking to him about it and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:11 No, I only, only 'cause we're talking about it here

Lewis Howes 35:12 ... yeah, of course.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:13 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:13 Yeah. And so the pat, what did you say it was? The paran-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:16 Paranoia. The path- the pathological jealousy.

Lewis Howes 35:18 Pathological jealousy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:19 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 35:20 That's a narcissistic trait.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:20 Yes. That's more of an, it's, it's more paranoid, it's more antagonistic.

Lewis Howes 35:24 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:24 It's more about-

Lewis Howes 35:25 You must be doing something or-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:26 You know, yeah. You're doing, so it's accusatory.

Lewis Howes 35:27 Gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:27 It's almost delusional.

Lewis Howes 35:29 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:30 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 35:30 Okay. What would you say again are the main causes, uh, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:38 Like-

Lewis Howes 35:38 Is it all trauma based?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:39 It's, no, it's, it's partly trauma. It's also that ch- that temperament. It is, um-

Lewis Howes 35:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:45 ... chaos in the early environment.

Lewis Howes 35:46 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:47 It's, it's lack of secure attachment. It's overvaluation of the child.

Lewis Howes 35:51 Gotcha. Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:51 Basically the child can do no wrong, and, uh, they're so wonderful. I mean, it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen, and I don't know how it's gonna go down. We're c- we're about to see, 'cause what, Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right?

Lewis Howes 36:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:04 We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world-

Lewis Howes 36:08 Hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:08 ... with every moment being documented and shared and public-

Lewis Howes 36:11 Since they were born

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:12 ... since they were born. This is the first time we're gonna be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are gonna start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're gonna see what happens if you were... 'Cause I, I had kids way before this, so I did not.

Lewis Howes 36:24 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:24 The only people who saw their pictures were the people I actually-

Lewis Howes 36:26 Your friends and family

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:26 ... put them in an envelope, mailed a picture-

Lewis Howes 36:28 Right, yeah, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:28 ... kind of thing

Lewis Howes 36:28 Or came over to the house and looked at a picture book.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:29 And so, or came to the house and looked at the actual baby. But, um-

Lewis Howes 36:32 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:32 ... this is a, this is a whole new game for kids whose, whose basically were accessories to their parents' lives.

Lewis Howes 36:38 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:38 Like, "Look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this." Every day there's a new picture.

Lewis Howes 36:42 So is it, do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's, you know, special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're, whatever, 10 or 12?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:57 It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this.

Lewis Howes 37:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:03 Is it, are these children consenting to you showing them, um, have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos, and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness 'cause these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much of we say, "Oh, no, it's so cute," is it still, they didn't consent. It's, it's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, "Oh, this may not be entirely cool."

Lewis Howes 37:26 Yeah. What happens when-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:27 "You're not agreeing."

Lewis Howes 37:28 What happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like... "Huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:37 But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.

Lewis Howes 37:44 Posing and put his clothes on-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:46 In a public way

Lewis Howes 37:46 ... and do this, and let's post you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:47 Yeah, in a public way. And that, and then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

Lewis Howes 38:05 Or for the validation online.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:06 Yes, ex- for the validation the parent is getting.

Lewis Howes 38:08 For the likes and engagement.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:08 Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Lewis Howes 38:09 Man, that's tough-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:10 Yeah

Lewis Howes 38:10 ... 'cause I have, I have friends who never show their kids' stuff, and then I have friends who do show their kids. And man, it's just like, yeah, how do we, how do we navigate that conversation? And how do we...

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:25 I, I thi- we're building this airplane in the sky.

Lewis Howes 38:28 Oh, man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:28 And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a, it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other, both parents, but also, I think there's the larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media, right? 'Cause what does every child want? They want their, they want their parents' love.

Lewis Howes 38:51 Love and attention.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:51 That's all they want is their parents' love and attention.

Lewis Howes 38:53 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:53 So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and Mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interests, what they value, may not be cultivated, or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful, and it doesn't all have to be documented. That, I'm c- I've been frankly-

Lewis Howes 39:22 Oh, man

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:22 ... as a psychologist, I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost, and they're going to.

Lewis Howes 39:25 Let's say there are, there are parents that are posting about their kids online.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:29 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 39:29 You know, maybe they have a small following. Maybe it's to a private group of their-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:32 Sure

Lewis Howes 39:33 ... friends and family.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:33 That's a, a kind of a different game.

Lewis Howes 39:35 And, and, and, or there's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, let's say, not to their friends and family-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:42 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 39:44 ... what would be appropriate that you think psychologically, in a healthy manner-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:49 Mm

Lewis Howes 39:49 ... to be able to talk about your family and your kids, is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:56 I think that-

Lewis Howes 39:56 ... not mess them up or, you know?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:58 Being present with your children emotionally, being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know? I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, "Well, this is the day we're gonna take such and such picture." Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress, someone is this.

Lewis Howes 40:21 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:21 And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, "I'm only about this person's finely laid plans." Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not. It's, it's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, "That's not what they want. This is not, this is..." We're going to Disneyland 'cause they wanna go to Disneyland. We're going to the park 'cause they wanna go to the park, not because what a great day for a photo op. Like I [laughs] I've been on vacation, and I've watched families, like pract- I mean, literally screaming, "We need the S- the Glass Mask card."

Lewis Howes 40:57 No way.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:58 And I'm like, [laughs] oh my God.

Lewis Howes 40:59 Pay attention. Look here.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:01 Let them just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach.

Lewis Howes 41:05 Oh my God.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:05 And it, it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self and what is narcissism-

Lewis Howes 41:13 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:13 ... but the false self.

Lewis Howes 41:15 That we're perfect. Oh, narcissism is the false self.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:17 Is the false self, yeah.

Lewis Howes 41:18 It's a mask.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:19 It's always a mask because it's the mask of what they think the world wants.

Lewis Howes 41:22 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:23 How they're, the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies. They're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask. That's a narcissist's game. The narcissism's the opposite of authenticity.

Lewis Howes 41:38 [laughs] It's so interesting because, um, four years ago, I wrote a book called The Mask of Masculinity-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:45 Mm

Lewis Howes 41:45 ... which, which is about-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:46 Interesting

Lewis Howes 41:47 ... and I interviewed a lot of psychologists and, and, um, you know, experts on, uh, on these kind of personality traits and these, these masks that men wear. And I did, I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks, for many different years of my life to protect myself-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:04 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 42:04 ... to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. Um, one of them being, like the, the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:12 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 42:12 I needed to be number one, and if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:17 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 42:18 So at all costs, I was, like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be, and I was a horrible loser.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:24 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 42:25 I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:27 Mm.

Lewis Howes 42:27 I would get angry.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:28 Interesting.

Lewis Howes 42:28 I would be, like moody.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:29 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 42:29 I would be, like frustrated and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:31 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 42:31 ... I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better, until I could make sure that, um, you know, I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. Um, and I realize that it's all of, about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:51 Yeah

Lewis Howes 42:51 ... and trying to belong, but it's, it's not the authentic self.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:55 Correct. And that, I mean, that's a... Maybe we'll have a different day I'll come in and talk to you-

Lewis Howes 42:58 Yeah, yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:58 ... about the authentic self 'cause it's such a big conversation. When we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right, the humanistic psychologist, and ev- o- other humanists like, um, Abraham Maslow, so these were the p- the big players in that humanistic universe. This idea of authenticity and self-actualization, so if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self-actualization's the summit.

Lewis Howes 43:18 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:18 It's the top.

Lewis Howes 43:19 Nice.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:19 I, I can, I, in my lifetime, I've met five self-actualized people, and it was unforgettable, and they were always older.

Lewis Howes 43:26 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:26 I, I think it's hard to self-actualize when you're younger, and they were deeply authentic.

Lewis Howes 43:30 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:30 I mean, like you, you did feel like you were in this, in the, in the face of greatness with them.

Lewis Howes 43:34 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:35 But some from ordinary. Like, one was a, a man who was a, a, he was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg, and I was like, "I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now," you know?

Lewis Howes 43:44 Well, what did that, what did that feel like?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:45 It was like-

Lewis Howes 43:45 What was the experience?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:46 ... absolute serenity Um, I felt at, I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down.

Lewis Howes 43:55 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:55 I felt like I could keep listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg, and actually in a pretty, in a, not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was joy. Like, he was just human joy. And it's not 'cause he was laughing, but he was so proud of what... And anyone looking at it, like, "There's not a lot happening here." But it was this genuine, authentic, like, "Please come into my... Look at my beautiful space."

Lewis Howes 44:22 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:23 "This is my life." And the other person I met who, same thing, joy. And that man, that Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man I am, and he is somebody who had a moment in his life and he decided to, to devote his life to, um, children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India, and I remember sitting with him. We were kind of, actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer, and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling, and I'm like, I li- I, it was, it... I could have sat there all day. And it was hot, and there were flies.

Lewis Howes 44:56 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:56 It was uncomfortable. And, and he was magnificent. And the, the... And it wasn't just... Okay, the mechanic guy wasn't laughing there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community-

Lewis Howes 45:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:07 ... in, in this village in India, right?

Lewis Howes 45:09 In service, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:10 They went to... But he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves-

Lewis Howes 45:19 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:20 ... and how they were in the world. There was no sense of someone has more, I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first?

Lewis Howes 45:29 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:29 And I remember when I, I, I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg. This other man I'm still in touch with. And I, I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves.

Lewis Howes 45:47 Fully authentic.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:48 Like, what a life. Like, what a gorgeous life.

Lewis Howes 45:52 You mentioned the, um, the DEEP technique.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 45:55 Uh, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:59 Personalize

Lewis Howes 45:59 ... personalize.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:00 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 46:01 So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get, like, your point across if you need to get it across, uh-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:09 You don't.

Lewis Howes 46:10 You don't.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:10 You can't. So the... Sometimes [laughs] some people-

Lewis Howes 46:13 What is... But what, so-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:14 Okay

Lewis Howes 46:14 ... but do we... Life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:18 Not with them.

Lewis Howes 46:20 So that we should just rip the Band-Aid, you know what I mean?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:22 Not necessarily. We can't, right? So like I said-

Lewis Howes 46:24 Gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:24 ... you know, let, l- I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around, say, narcissistic parents aren't good for kids, so if you're a parent-

Lewis Howes 46:36 Oh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:36 ... dealing with a narcissist, we're gonna give the other parent full custody. Not happening.

Lewis Howes 46:40 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:40 State of California, 50/50. All right? Unless somebody doesn't want that.

Lewis Howes 46:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:46 So what happens then is a person says, "If I decide to split up from this person, I'm only gonna be with my kids 50% of the time, and I don't want them with that influence-"

Lewis Howes 46:56 Oh, my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:56 ... "50% of the time." So some people will stay. I, my favorite is when people file for divorce, like, the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, "I know what that was about." You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till that day.

Lewis Howes 47:08 Trying to protect them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:09 And then at 18, those kids are free agents, so there's no, no one can say, "You have to be here. You have to stay here. You have to celebrate this holiday with that," or anything. They, they get to call their own shots.

Lewis Howes 47:18 So how do you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:19 So you do, so much for you-

Lewis Howes 47:19 How do you... You just have to have extreme patience, I feel like.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:21 It, it's, it's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance-

Lewis Howes 47:27 [laughs] This thing sounds exhausting

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:29 ... is getting it. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't gonna change. You ever spent time in Chicago? I'm sure you have.

Lewis Howes 47:36 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:36 Right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago.

Lewis Howes 47:39 Oh, it's miserable.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:40 You running-

Lewis Howes 47:41 Freezing

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:41 ... are you gonna go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt?

Lewis Howes 47:43 No, unless you're crazy. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:44 Okay.

Lewis Howes 47:45 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:45 Why? 'Cause in February in Chicago, it's cold.

Lewis Howes 47:48 It's freezing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:49 Radical acceptance.

Lewis Howes 47:49 Yeah. So you just accept it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:51 Right?

Lewis Howes 47:51 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:51 If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance.

Lewis Howes 47:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:57 You cannot talk to a narcissist.

Lewis Howes 47:59 Gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:59 So I tell people, there's, like... Another concept I use is something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument. True north are those things that you're gonna fight for because they're so, they're, they're important to your core values, so who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language.

Lewis Howes 48:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:21 True north gets activated and they'll say, "I'm taking the fight." They pull off the gloves. They pull out the-

Lewis Howes 48:27 But that's exhausting

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:27 ... they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just... Uh, they'll go at it. The, it is exhausting.

Lewis Howes 48:32 Nothing good happens, does it?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:33 Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, "I took the fight, Dr. Ramani-"

Lewis Howes 48:37 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:38 ... "so I can live with myself."

Lewis Howes 48:39 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:39 To know that I fought for my kids.

Lewis Howes 48:40 Stood up for what I... Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:41 I stood up. But, but do not get into the fight about the dishwasher or, well, you know, why were you late to the party, or why were you rude to my sister, or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting. The minute you let go, it... You know what happens, though, is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, "There's no there. There's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about." I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they, they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, "Uh-huh. That's it."

Lewis Howes 49:17 But that's, I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:21 You cultivate other stuff in your li- life.

Lewis Howes 49:23 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:23 Interests, um-

Lewis Howes 49:24 Can you actually, can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:27 It's a subjective question, right?

Lewis Howes 49:28 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:28 Love is such a complicated word.

Lewis Howes 49:29 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:29 It means something different to you. It means something different to me.

Lewis Howes 49:31 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:31 It means different things to the people out in the street. So the... And that's, the g- the bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love?

Lewis Howes 49:40 Is that possible?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:40 Um, it depends. Um, again, we're like-

Lewis Howes 49:41 Besides loving themselves

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:43 ... what is cold to you? Right? You're in short sleeves, I'm in a sweater.

Lewis Howes 49:46 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:47 You know, so it's, it's, it's a subjective word, so can a per- ... Lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, "I love this person. I l- they represent something to me." Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it's very r- it's very, it is very representational. We love what they stand for. We love what we believe they are.

Lewis Howes 50:05 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:06 But we don't know, maybe we never know lo- someone enough to love them.

Lewis Howes 50:09 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:09 So, you know, again, that's a philosophical conversation.

Lewis Howes 50:12 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:12 But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, "I do..." They'll... Parents are a great example, people who have narcissistic parents. Like, "I love my mother," or, "I love my father."

Lewis Howes 50:24 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:24 "I can't stand them."

Lewis Howes 50:25 [laughs] Right. Sure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:29 But love is much more metaphysical.

Lewis Howes 50:31 Yeah, of course.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:31 Right? So-

Lewis Howes 50:33 What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist then?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:35 That they love themselves.

Lewis Howes 50:38 They don't love themselves?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:38 Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves.

Lewis Howes 50:47 Really? But then they put it on other people.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:48 They put, they project it onto other people. "You're a horrible, lying-"

Lewis Howes 50:53 Oh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:53 ... "disgusting person. You make me sick."

Lewis Howes 50:56 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:57 They're talking about themselves.

Lewis Howes 50:58 Oh my gosh. So-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:59 Sometimes you just wanna give them a hug like, "You need-"

Lewis Howes 51:00 So narcissists are miserable.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:02 They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awf- it's a... I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is... People are like, "I wanna get revenge on them." I say, "You don't have to. They have to keep being them."

Lewis Howes 51:14 They have to live with it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:15 The universe wins on that one.

Lewis Howes 51:16 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:16 Like, they have to keep being them. It is a ve- imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, "They have that, and they have that. How come I don't have this, and how come this?" And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them.

Lewis Howes 51:33 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:34 That's a very difficult way to live.

Lewis Howes 51:35 Their nervous system must be always heightened too.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:37 Kind of. Kind of, yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there, obviously.

Lewis Howes 51:41 It doesn't feel, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:42 Mm-mm. Yeah. But narcissists really, really, um, it's in a very uncomfortable way to live, 'cause you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

Lewis Howes 51:51 And so what are the signs then if you're a kid, and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, "Oh, maybe they, I have one parent who's narcissistic." What would you be, what would you say the main signs if a parent, for a kid, would be narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:05 I, I don't think a, a, when, y- let's say a child is anyone under 13.

Lewis Howes 52:08 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:08 I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're around middle school or high school.

Lewis Howes 52:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:14 Um, it, selfishness, um, inattentive- real inattentiveness.

Lewis Howes 52:19 Dismissiveness.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:19 Um, dismissiveness.

Lewis Howes 52:21 Oh, man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:22 Um, uh, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them-

Lewis Howes 52:25 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:25 ... humiliating them.

Lewis Howes 52:27 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:27 Expecting them to be like them. Um, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. "What do you mean you don't wanna go to Harvard?" Or like, "Ugh, you wanna go to that college?" Like, any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children, that's all narcissistic parent behavior.

Lewis Howes 52:41 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:42 Rage. Rage is a big one, and I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up the most.

Lewis Howes 52:46 Anger.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:47 Anger, but rage. Like that walking on eggshells. If, if anyone says to me, "I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent," probably dealing with an antagonistic, a narcissistic parent.

Lewis Howes 52:57 Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I was, I felt that for a part of my life-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:01 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 53:01 ... and then things started to shift, but I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the [laughs] past.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:05 Yes, yeah.

Lewis Howes 53:06 Which makes me be like, why did I, uh, jump into s- different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet, or I hadn't learned to, um-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:17 But you didn't jump into a relationship-

Lewis Howes 53:19 I didn't feel that in the beginning

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:20 ... you walked on eggshells. You didn't feel it at the beginning.

Lewis Howes 53:21 But it was like 6 to 12 months later when I was like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:23 Then you justified

Lewis Howes 53:23 ... then I justified.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:25 Justified.

Lewis Howes 53:25 "Oh, let's just get back to where it was."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:27 One of the great, your g- I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly-

Lewis Howes 53:30 Oh, yeah, give it to me

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:30 ... to a narcissistic relationship-

Lewis Howes 53:32 Give it to me

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:32 ... is your history as an athlete.

Lewis Howes 53:34 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:34 Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic-

Lewis Howes 53:38 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:38 ... but for falling for narcissists.

Lewis Howes 53:40 Why is that?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:40 And a lot of that is because for any s- gifted athlete-

Lewis Howes 53:44 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:45 ... all you needed to do was work harder.

Lewis Howes 53:47 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:47 You just had to go to the gym, or had to run, or do whatever. Whatever it was you needed to do, it just meant more reps.

Lewis Howes 53:53 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:53 There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna, you're gonna do the Sunday workout.

Lewis Howes 53:57 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:57 You're gonna go to the gym at 4:00 in the morning.

Lewis Howes 53:59 That's it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:59 Right?

Lewis Howes 53:59 That's what I did.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:00 And so the, the more, and you had this belief-

Lewis Howes 54:02 You got better

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:02 ... you were, you got better, and you were in control.

Lewis Howes 54:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:04 So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk, talk to them harder. I'm gonna ta- I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make this work.

Lewis Howes 54:12 More loving, more present, more giving.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:14 I'm gonna be more loving. Everything becomes a workout.

Lewis Howes 54:15 Oh my gosh, this is what I did in the last 10 years.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:18 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:18 In every relationship in the last 10 years.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:20 It was a workout.

Lewis Howes 54:20 And I remember just being like, it would, never felt enough.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:22 Mm-mm.

Lewis Howes 54:23 And it was always draining to give.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:24 Correct.

Lewis Howes 54:25 It was never enough what I gave.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:26 Right.

Lewis Howes 54:26 There was always something wrong with me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:27 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:28 There was always something to pick at.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:29 Yep.

Lewis Howes 54:30 And they never wanted to do a therapy with me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:32 Mm-mm.

Lewis Howes 54:33 I was, it was funny, 'cause I was like, what ma- you know, I don't wanna generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:39 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 54:39 ... and, and, and get feedback from my... Like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:43 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:43 Tell me how to improve, 'cause I'm an athlete, right? [laughs] I'm like, "I wanna improve."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:45 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 54:46 And they never wanted to.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:47 Right.

Lewis Howes 54:47 I was just like, I, I, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:52 Not a narcissistic woman.

Lewis Howes 54:53 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:54 But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this.

Lewis Howes 55:05 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:05 I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away.

Lewis Howes 55:10 No, it was more like, I wanna make this work.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:12 Exactly.

Lewis Howes 55:12 What can I do to make it better?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:13 And that's, that was your-

Lewis Howes 55:14 How can I improve?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:15 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 55:15 Tell me what I can do.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:16 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 55:16 I'm here. I'll support.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:17 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 55:17 I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:20 Mm-hmm. Athletes, entrepreneurs, or, or-

Lewis Howes 55:22 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:22 ... anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them, they're screwed.

Lewis Howes 55:25 It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist talks about is, like, I started to really realize like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:35 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 55:35 You talked about this in one of your recent videos, like, that marriage and relationships should be hard work-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:39 Mm

Lewis Howes 55:39 ... is kind of the narrative.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:41 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 55:42 And when I realized, like, it shouldn't feel like- Commitment and th- there's attention-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:47 Mm

Lewis Howes 55:47 ... and presence.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 55:49 But it shouldn't feel like this draining-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:50 No

Lewis Howes 55:50 ... hard work.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:52 No. It really shouldn't.

Lewis Howes 55:53 Otherwise, otherwise I'd rather be single-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:54 No

Lewis Howes 55:54 ... if that's the way it is.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:54 E-

Lewis Howes 55:54 It's like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:55 Exactly, and I think that that... And I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, "Well-"

Lewis Howes 56:01 It's hard work

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:01 ... relationships are hard work. No. No, no, no. No. It's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't wanna watch, I don't know that that's hard work.

Lewis Howes 56:11 That's just that-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:11 Like, 'cause they sat w- and watch your French film with you.

Lewis Howes 56:13 It's just an uncomfortable moment. Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:14 ... like, "I'm just gonna read my book while you-"

Lewis Howes 56:15 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:15 ... "watch your football game, I guess."

Lewis Howes 56:16 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:17 You know? It's, we're good.

Lewis Howes 56:18 Yeah, that's fine. [laughs] Yeah, I can show up for a few hours and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:20 That's not hard work.

Lewis Howes 56:21 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:21 Hard, you know, uh, if, and the p- other person's kind, right? Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients, kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity-

Lewis Howes 56:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:35 ... um, respect.

Lewis Howes 56:37 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:37 Every, every, every-

Lewis Howes 56:38 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:38 ... every single one. And as long as you got that-

Lewis Howes 56:40 Flexibility. Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:41 ... flexibility. No narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients.

Lewis Howes 56:45 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:45 So that's why they don't work.

Lewis Howes 56:46 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:46 They don't work. So yeah, they're always going to be hard work-

Lewis Howes 56:49 Oh, my God

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:49 ... because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to make a, bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that.

Lewis Howes 56:56 How do you know when you're entering a new relationship if the person is not a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:02 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 57:02 Like, maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship or your parent was or whatever it is-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:07 Mm

Lewis Howes 57:07 ... and you have some PTS from those-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:09 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 57:09 ... r- experiences. And you feel like, "Well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kinda healthy."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:14 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 57:15 Like, is the shoe gonna drop? Like, when do you know the person isn't a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:19 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 57:19 How long does that take to find out? [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:21 About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are in the sense that... The, the difference is narcissists actually, there's red flags, right?

Lewis Howes 57:28 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:28 I call these green flags. Green flags mean go.

Lewis Howes 57:32 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:32 And green flags are things like watch the person, w- watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that, uh, you're running late to the airport. Great, 'cause that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, "Oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work. And listen, what's the worst that's gonna happen? We'll get rebooked." And they're calm, and like, you know, "Listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out."

Lewis Howes 57:57 To make the most of the moment.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:58 "So we'll go, yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to."

Lewis Howes 58:00 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:00 "But we're gonna be fine." A narcissist when they're running late to the airport, "Oh, oh, no. No, no, no."

Lewis Howes 58:05 What happens?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:05 So, and it just, it's just... [laughs] I c- I'm not gonna curse.

Lewis Howes 58:09 It's chaos and it's stress and it's exhausting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:09 Right. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. "This is your fault."

Lewis Howes 58:13 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:13 Entitlement. "Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate."

Lewis Howes 58:18 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:18 Like that ki- that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the, um, with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, "Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner?" So it's the noticing. It's the presence. It's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, um, to meet you halfway, to listen to you, to... And more than anything it's to also see the growth potential i- in you, so not to be threatened by s- your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, "Hey, you know what? I got this totally n- cool new opportunity." And the healthy person says, "That is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you."

Lewis Howes 58:59 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:00 "What can we do to make this work for you?" Whereas everybody else, and not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, "Oh, I guess that's just gonna mean more time away, and you're gonna be-"

Lewis Howes 59:10 Oh, my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:10 ... "traveling a lot and there's gonna be a lot of women on the road." And you're like, "Oh, my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams."

Lewis Howes 59:17 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:17 And that's-

Lewis Howes 59:18 Bringing back so many memories to me

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:19 ... yeah, that's the key. And I'm a big believer-

Lewis Howes 59:21 [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:21 ... that, you know, there's actually something in... We're, I'm going a little off topic-

Lewis Howes 59:24 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:24 ... but you're an off-topic guy.

Lewis Howes 59:26 It's great.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:26 You can handle it.

Lewis Howes 59:26 I love it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:27 There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, "What do we need to do to get you to, to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we, like should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? You know, do, should we move closer in? Like, because I see..." Or, or you, you know what? It can be simple s- as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, "Okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business?" Or a partner of yours might have said, "You ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast."

Lewis Howes 1:00:04 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:04 Like, it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

Lewis Howes 1:00:07 That's a good thing. That's, it's the-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:09 That's the Michelangelo phenomenon.

Lewis Howes 1:00:10 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:10 That's everything.

Lewis Howes 1:00:11 That's a good thing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:11 It's the best thing.

Lewis Howes 1:00:13 [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:13 And very few relationships get that, because what you gotta do is that person who's saying, "Go be your best you," is secure enough to say, "I'm not gonna lose you."

Lewis Howes 1:00:23 Right, right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:23 Like, "I see all the good in you."

Lewis Howes 1:00:25 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:25 And that-

Lewis Howes 1:00:26 And I want the best for you

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:27 ... and I want the best for you, and I believe in you, and I'm here with you. And, and that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice, things like, "You know, I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months, and I may not see you, and that's okay because this-"

Lewis Howes 1:00:41 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:41 ... "is our future together." That's the Michelangelo phenomenon.

Lewis Howes 1:00:44 The s-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:45 Never, ever happens

Lewis Howes 1:00:46 ... what's the op- what's the opposite of that?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:46 Narcissistic relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:00:48 In, in the previous, I would say, uh, 10 years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing, uh, [laughs] specific people because I was always like, I always saw the masterpiece.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:59 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:00:59 I said, I said, "You're a masterpiece, and I can see what's possible-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:03 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:01:03 ... "for you with all these skills and gifts." But there was, like, some insecurities with some of them, not all of them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:08 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:01:08 And they never were able to see it within themselves.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:10 Mm-hmm. Right.

Lewis Howes 1:01:11 They, they weren't able to see it. And then I remember when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:17 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:01:17 ... not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, "Oh," and then make it about what they're lacking and what they don't have-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:25 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:01:25 ... and wanting to put the attention back on them. I remember I, I got an email. For a year, I was training to become, uh, to make the, uh, USA National Team, was a dream of mine.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:36 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:01:36 To go to the Olympics and make the USA National Team-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:38 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:01:38 ... for a sport called team handball.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:39 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:01:39 Which is a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email, and literally almost in tears, that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for, uh-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:50 That's great

Lewis Howes 1:01:50 ... for a couple years of a journey. This was 10 years ago, and I remember I, I showed to my girlfriend at the time, I go, "I just got called up on the national team." And I'm, like, getting kind of emotional, just chills now-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:00 Wow

Lewis Howes 1:02:00 ... r- back in that moment, and she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into, "God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do, and I wish this, this."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:08 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:02:08 And I was just like, "What?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:09 Bingo. Right there.

Lewis Howes 1:02:11 Just, "Okay. Well, yeah, let me come back and help you." Like, I kind of put my attention back on, like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:16 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:02:16 ... you know, "You're gonna get these things going, and w- you know, I'm here for you." But it's like this diminishing... I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness, and, uh, a relationship at the time made it all about them at the event, that I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me, and people were coming up to me. And I was like, "This is something I've been working all year to host."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:38 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:02:39 And then I said, "You know what? Let me pause in my event for two hours to give the attention to this person." And I, and I was always trying to see the masterpiece.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:46 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:02:47 But it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me. [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:51 Right. Yeah, I mean, but that's the idea, that that ego... And it's interesting. Not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch.

Lewis Howes 1:02:59 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:00 They may just have more of the low-grade insecurity that so many people-

Lewis Howes 1:03:03 Gotcha

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:03 ... are plagued by, right?

Lewis Howes 1:03:04 Gotcha. Just insecure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:05 All insecurity doesn't mean narcissism-

Lewis Howes 1:03:07 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:07 ... right? Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem.

Lewis Howes 1:03:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:12 And so it, it's so unfortunate because it is there. Then you, again, it's talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people, like, they really see, they see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece.

Lewis Howes 1:03:28 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:28 They have to see the masterpiece in you.

Lewis Howes 1:03:30 Well, [laughs] 'cause it's just draining-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:32 Yeah. It's, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:03:32 ... if it's just one person, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:33 It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.

Lewis Howes 1:03:36 Oh. So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:44 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:03:44 ... in each other.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:45 And are supportive-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:46 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:03:46 ... of each other.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:47 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:47 And when one is succeeding, uh, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just, uh, a walking success.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:54 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:03:54 Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:58 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:03:58 I want her to succeed. I'm like, "This is amazing. Let's celebrate you."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:01 Mm-hmm. And she's happy for you.

Lewis Howes 1:04:03 She's happy for me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:03 Bingo. That's, it has to be-

Lewis Howes 1:04:04 And she's-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:05 ... a two-way street

Lewis Howes 1:04:05 ... she admires the work I'm doing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:07 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:04:07 She admires the mission we're on to help people, and, uh, she's like, "What can I do to support you?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:12 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:04:13 It feels interesting.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:14 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:04:14 I mean, it feels beautiful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:15 Mm-hmm. It is beautiful. I mean, and, and that's the key, though, because that ability to sort of co-, like, you know, again, to have that, that, um, that co-located growth, that Michelangelo-

Lewis Howes 1:04:26 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:26 ... if you will. You're, you're, in essence, you're, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day, and you're both sculpting it out for each other.

Lewis Howes 1:04:33 Oh, my gosh. [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:34 But that, that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that, and with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like, everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. They can... So they can be the only great one in a relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:04:48 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:04:49 Is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:52 I actually love when that happens-

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:54 ... 'cause it kinda gets a lot of-

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 'Cause they're both miserable

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:55 ... water supply for everybody else. [laughs] Oh, my God.

Lewis Howes 1:04:57 [laughs] 'Cause they're both miserable and they jump.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:58 So you guys do you.

Lewis Howes 1:04:58 They're like peppered for each other.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:59 They not... Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships.

Lewis Howes 1:05:02 Oh, my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:02 They're very superficial relationships.

Lewis Howes 1:05:04 Ah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:04 A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing.

Lewis Howes 1:05:07 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:07 Like this kind of, they're all about the... They're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy, but in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane... So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship. Very, one partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It, it all looks good together.

Lewis Howes 1:05:34 They compliment each other.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:35 Right? They... Ish. Compliment's a strong word.

Lewis Howes 1:05:37 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:38 The first time, this one, though, might look someplace else, 'cause this one's a narcissist person, this person, the powerful one, is narcissistic, may notice someone else, this person's gonna blow up.

Lewis Howes 1:05:48 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:48 Because they're, they're doing their beautiful thing full time, and they're like, "How can someone be more beautiful than me?"

Lewis Howes 1:05:52 And if you're not looking at me, obsessive, then-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:54 So-

Lewis Howes 1:05:54 ... not giving me all the attention

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:55 ... lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, lots of me, me, me.

Lewis Howes 1:05:59 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:59 Lots of egocentricity. Lots of... On social media it's like, "I'm so blessed. #lovemyperson. #bestrelationshipever." Um, I mean, I, I laugh when I see those. I'm like, "Ooh, yeah, there we go."

Lewis Howes 1:06:11 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:11 You know, another narcis- super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship.

Lewis Howes 1:06:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:16 But it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional, that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's Ark, as long as none of them have kids.

Lewis Howes 1:06:32 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:32 'Cause that's a real-

Lewis Howes 1:06:33 'Cause then your kids are a mess

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:34 ... that's a real bummer on the kids.

Lewis Howes 1:06:35 You're a mess.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:36 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:36 You're traumatized.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:38 It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up either, they either become incredibly anxious as adults-

Lewis Howes 1:06:43 Oh, my God

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:43 ... or they become narcissistic as adults.

Lewis Howes 1:06:45 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:45 It's not a good, it's not a good look.

Lewis Howes 1:06:46 I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:48 You're depressed

Lewis Howes 1:06:49 ... or depressed.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:06:50 How many, what's the percentage? [laughs] How many, uh... What's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:57 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:06:57 Do we have that even, a number?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:57 Okay. So here's, here's where it gets interesting. So let's, let's start with something we haven't talked about yet, so, like, give me a way to talk about this.

Lewis Howes 1:07:04 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:04 A lot of people use the word narcissistic per- or the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it, because it's a mistake to use that languaging, and I'll tell you why.

Lewis Howes 1:07:14 Narcissistic personality disorder.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:15 Personality disorder, okay?

Lewis Howes 1:07:17 NPD.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:18 So lots of people out there will say, "Ugh, I'm in this relationship," or, "I've got this boss," and they have narcissistic personality disorder. And I'm always like, "Slow down, sister," okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full work-up-

Lewis Howes 1:07:32 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:32 ... a lengthy clinical interview.

Lewis Howes 1:07:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:33 It even takes me, I, I'm gonna honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with-

Lewis Howes 1:07:40 If they're-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:41 ... with a disorder

Lewis Howes 1:07:41 ... 'cause you could have narcissistic personality traits.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:44 Correct.

Lewis Howes 1:07:45 And it's different than a disorder.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:46 It's very different, and it gets into the weeds in terms of-

Lewis Howes 1:07:48 S-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:48 ... diagnostic stuff you don't wanna get into.

Lewis Howes 1:07:49 It could be like more like when I'm triggered, I-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:52 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:07:52 ... have narcissistic traits as opposed to-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:54 It's more com-

Lewis Howes 1:07:55 Okay

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:55 ... it's more complex than that.

Lewis Howes 1:07:56 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:56 Because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-

Lewis Howes 1:08:02 Uh-huh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:02 ... the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis- That person who is showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves-

Lewis Howes 1:08:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:13 ... like w- we call it subjective distress. So like depressed people are like, they're like, "I'm miserable. I can't... I'm miserable. I'm sad all the time. I can't get out of bed." That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of, right? It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around-

Lewis Howes 1:08:42 Nothing's wrong with them

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:42 ... saying like, "I'm, I'm the one. I'm the guy. I'm, I'm-"

Lewis Howes 1:08:44 Right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:45 ... you know, "I'm number one."

Lewis Howes 1:08:45 It's working for me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:46 "I'm the best. Look how great I am," right?

Lewis Howes 1:08:47 I've got money, I've got success, I've got the girl.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:49 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:08:49 Whatever it is, it's working for me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:51 So e- everything's working for them.

Lewis Howes 1:08:52 Nothing's wrong with me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:52 So that's not subjective distress.

Lewis Howes 1:08:53 Nothing's wrong with me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:54 No.

Lewis Howes 1:08:54 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:55 Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work, and then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around on the street, they're making, they're making bank at work.

Lewis Howes 1:09:07 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:07 They got, they got a partner and a p- a side piece. Like everything's working out for them, so they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives.

Lewis Howes 1:09:17 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:17 We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social... We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because they're, someone else is bothered by them. Make sense?

Lewis Howes 1:09:27 Mm, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:27 It has to be in the, um, it has to be that the person is saying, "Ah, I'm not, I'm not going to work on time," or, "I got a DUI." Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a d- diagnosis with no treatment, so why would you have a disease that you can't treat?

Lewis Howes 1:09:47 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:47 There's no point to that. So let's... So okay, so now y- let's go to the numbers 'cause the, the epi- epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a, um-

Lewis Howes 1:09:59 This

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:59 ... a given mental illness-

Lewis Howes 1:10:00 Okay

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:00 ... a given disorder.

Lewis Howes 1:10:01 Gotcha.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:02 So the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between one and 6%, okay?

Lewis Howes 1:10:10 That's people who are diagnosed with the disorder.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:12 Diagnosed with this. Okay, so they've gone into research studies-

Lewis Howes 1:10:14 But most, but most people aren't diagnosed because-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:17 Right

Lewis Howes 1:10:17 ... they would never come in and do these sessions and...

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:19 Right. So the million-

Lewis Howes 1:10:20 So what do you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:21 The million-dollar question.

Lewis Howes 1:10:22 What do you, how many do you think it is?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:23 How many do you... I, this is my number. This is the Dr. Ramani number.

Lewis Howes 1:10:26 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:27 Okay? I'm going with 20 to 25%.

Lewis Howes 1:10:31 Oh, of the world, or like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:33 Of, of, of the world

Lewis Howes 1:10:33 ... of the US or?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:34 The world.

Lewis Howes 1:10:35 20-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:35 One in five to one in four.

Lewis Howes 1:10:36 You think it's narcissistic-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:37 And so our one in five is probably... And I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids out.

Lewis Howes 1:10:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:40 Okay? So 18 and above, 20%. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%.

Lewis Howes 1:10:49 Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:49 I think that just the pressures of New York-

Lewis Howes 1:10:51 The New York and LA, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:52 ... especially New York, LA. LA being an-

Lewis Howes 1:10:53 Miami

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:53 ... entertainment city.

Lewis Howes 1:10:55 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:55 Um, the nature that sort of the, the... It's a company town, and the business of the town is very superficial-

Lewis Howes 1:11:01 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:01 ... and very validation-seeking, so I'd say 25% here. So that's one in five. So buddy, if you know five people-

Lewis Howes 1:11:07 One of them

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:07 ... one of them's narcissistic.

Lewis Howes 1:11:08 When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the, the qualities that they possess, the real qualities?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:15 Again, it's, it's, it's empathy-

Lewis Howes 1:11:16 Empathy

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:16 ... kindness, respect-

Lewis Howes 1:11:18 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:19 ... flexibility, self-awareness, um, the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, um, uh, emotional regulation, managing, uh, like this is more of the emotional regulation, like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, um, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of, of them, having a s-

Lewis Howes 1:11:44 That's a good one. Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:45 ... yeah, mm-hmm. Strong, having a strong sense of identity, um, a sense of who they are, having a, A, having a solid sense of values, um, a conscientiousness, agreeableness.

Lewis Howes 1:11:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:57 These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.

Lewis Howes 1:12:01 It's nice to be around those type of people.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:02 Oh, they're so good. And I, I'm, I feel blessed. I have, I have a fair number of those in my life.

Lewis Howes 1:12:07 I feel I got a few, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:07 But I'm very careful. Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't-

Lewis Howes 1:12:12 I know

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:12 ... I r- and I've made the mistake. Because recently, as of this year, I've let more than a few in, so it happens. Like-

Lewis Howes 1:12:17 You've let narcissists in

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:18 ... I've, narcissistic friends in. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:12:20 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:20 I'm getting... You know, and I gotta tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse, or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship, one thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's, it's, unfortunately, at one in five, what are the odds, right?

Lewis Howes 1:12:38 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:38 They're pretty darn good. You date five people, [laughs] one of them... And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.

Lewis Howes 1:12:47 So even you, you attracted people in your life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:49 100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of it.

Lewis Howes 1:12:53 What's, what are they?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:54 My, my personal vulnerabilities are things like a, um, I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough.

Lewis Howes 1:13:00 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:01 I, um, pity people kind of easily.

Lewis Howes 1:13:03 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:03 And so narcissists actually are pitiful people.

Lewis Howes 1:13:05 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:06 And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder.

Lewis Howes 1:13:10 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:10 So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, that, if that's, if that's the price of poker, I, I'm good. Like I don't... I, I've been through too mu- too many times of this rodeo that I don't wanna do it. So it's definitely my own lack of, um, valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissists. If I broi- boil this down to one simple thing, is that I feel like I'm not good enough.

Lewis Howes 1:13:35 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:35 And because I feel like I'm not good enough, I let those kinds of people in. So what I've found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates. And, um, I just-

Lewis Howes 1:13:45 And not let anyone in

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:45 ... it's really, and not let anyone in, unfortunately. Yeah. That's kind of the downstream effect. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:13:50 Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:57 It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent, but I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm, I'm not enough kind of thing.

Lewis Howes 1:14:08 Really?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:09 Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I know that, and that's my work on my, in my own therapy-

Lewis Howes 1:14:12 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:12 ... on that consistently. And, um, but it's a, I know where my barriers are, so anything that pings that. It's, it's great. It's interesting. I've got, my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. This is what's, what's so r- remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs.

Lewis Howes 1:14:29 That's great.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:30 They're like, "We feel like one's coming. No." And I'll be like, "I kinda feel bad for them." I'm like, "Good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in." So they're g- they're, they're, I mean, they're, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the-

Lewis Howes 1:14:41 [laughs] That's great

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:41 ... two most amazing young women. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:14:44 What's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:47 Mm. Mm

Lewis Howes 1:14:48 ... so that we don't, so that when we see someone coming in, we just say, "Nah, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:54 So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before.

Lewis Howes 1:14:57 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:57 It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives, that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, and we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're just the stuff of life, you know? We're... And that makes us beautiful and lovable. We're... And so it's-

Lewis Howes 1:15:17 Who said this?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:18 It, Carl Rogers said, talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Ramani says, and, and many others I do believe say we're energy. Like, who judges energy? It's like judging the sun.

Lewis Howes 1:15:28 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:28 I guess we do. Like, we wear sunscreen. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:15:30 You're right, right, right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:31 But you know what I mean. Like, it's a, the- these conditions of worth, like, uh, whatever people say to themselves, "I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough-"

Lewis Howes 1:15:39 I'm not pretty enough. Yeah, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:40 ... I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough," that those conditions of worth. I- if I'm, "I would be lovable if."

Lewis Howes 1:15:49 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:49 As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed.

Lewis Howes 1:15:52 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:53 So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable, all of us. Not because somebody's more beautiful, or somebody's more famous, or somebody's more attractive. It's not. Or, or rich or something like that, but it's hard because we're given the message of you're better if you look this way-

Lewis Howes 1:16:14 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:15 ... act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's, it's a lot to break out of, and so I think that, um, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were, were tau- were they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of well, I'm not, they're not paying attention to me 'cause I'm not interesting.

Lewis Howes 1:16:37 Enough.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:37 I'm not enough.

Lewis Howes 1:16:38 And I get attention when I excel-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:39 Mm. Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:16:39 ... in something that they like.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:41 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:16:41 And so let me do more of that-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:42 Oh

Lewis Howes 1:16:42 ... to get more attention.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:43 Exactly. Exactly.

Lewis Howes 1:16:44 And if I lose at that, then they're not gonna love me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:46 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:16:47 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:47 That's exactly right.

Lewis Howes 1:16:48 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:48 So it all becomes like people think like, "If I do these things, then I can be loved," rather than you're just lovable. And so that's the, um, that- that's where people, most people lose the plot. And, and I think the other piece those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, "Oh, come on, everyone can change," or some, uh, just they, I, "I just gotta get to know them better," or, "They don't really mean that."

Lewis Howes 1:17:10 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:10 We enable it. We justify it. But if people really got to learn like, "No, that's un- unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not okay. That, that, that entitled behavior, not okay." I, and honestly get to the point where-

Lewis Howes 1:17:25 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:25 ... I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this.

Lewis Howes 1:17:29 So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:32 It's not easy. I mean, I think that the, na- narcissistic people, the, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, 'cause then they get interest- disinterested and they walk away.

Lewis Howes 1:17:42 And they'll be like, "Okay."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:43 Right? You're not an easy mark anymore, right? So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I'm the, I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, "If you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like, get away from them. This is dangerous." You know?

Lewis Howes 1:17:54 But are there some people that are charming-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:55 No

Lewis Howes 1:17:55 ... and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:58 Yeah, but I, I, I'm like, I'm, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater-

Lewis Howes 1:18:00 And right, right, right. Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:01 ... at this point. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:18:03 Sure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:03 Fall out.

Lewis Howes 1:18:04 Sure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:04 So it's a, um, because charming, charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility.

Lewis Howes 1:18:12 There you go.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:12 If they have the humility back, then you're okay.

Lewis Howes 1:18:14 That's the unicorn.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:15 Uh, that's the unicorn.

Lewis Howes 1:18:16 That's the unicorn.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:16 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:18:16 That's when you're like-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:17 That's it

Lewis Howes 1:18:17 ... they're charming and they're hum-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:18 And charis- and they're humble

Lewis Howes 1:18:19 ... humble and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:20 Like, they are all, they're all that. They're incredible.

Lewis Howes 1:18:23 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:23 And they're like, "Listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit?"

Lewis Howes 1:18:27 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:28 "Talk a little bit about you." Um, th- there's a humility-

Lewis Howes 1:18:31 That's a keeper in your life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:32 Yeah, that's a keeper. Or they, they, you can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people. They're not talking down to people maybe because let's say they're in a service position-

Lewis Howes 1:18:41 They care

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:41 ... that evening, right? That they're not, and not in a smarmy like, "Oh, the server's my best friend." But, like, they're not like-

Lewis Howes 1:18:50 Lines

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:51 ... that. It's none of that. It's really like, "Oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get," or whatever. You know, they're, they're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist. They're not status conscious. Th- that kind of humility.

Lewis Howes 1:19:04 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:04 You know? That they don't brag. You know that they're all that, and they're not going on about how all that that they are.

Lewis Howes 1:19:09 That's cool.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:09 Mm-hmm. They're not talking about, "Oh, let me tell you about my new this, and my new that, and this accomplishment, and my..." No, they're, they're just, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not, to not drink the Kool-Aid.

Lewis Howes 1:19:28 Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:34 I think that, um-

Lewis Howes 1:19:35 One in five of your friends is a narcissist

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:37 ... so, I mean, again, if we're using this number of r- 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just inter- I mean, it's, it's a spitball number.

Lewis Howes 1:19:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:46 And it's, it's just sort of boiled, boiled up in this world, and it may be a urban myth. I don't know.

Lewis Howes 1:19:53 Right. Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:53 It's, it's hard to get good data on this, right?

Lewis Howes 1:19:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:56 You know, it's, it's, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement in psychology because who's gonna be honest about it, right? There's all these backdoors we try to do to figure it out, but I'd say the other things... I, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist.

Lewis Howes 1:20:13 Oh, tell me please.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:13 Because I think that we've been talk- we've been so much focused on the narcissist. The question is what if I've just been through this? It's hard.

Lewis Howes 1:20:20 Is there a sense of PTS that you're gonna f-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:22 Yes

Lewis Howes 1:20:22 ... face?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:22 A lot of PTS.

Lewis Howes 1:20:23 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:24 You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety.

Lewis Howes 1:20:33 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:33 A lack of, uh, not feeling motivated anymore.

Lewis Howes 1:20:36 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:36 Sort of sense of like I can't be bothered with life, rumination.

Lewis Howes 1:20:40 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:41 Regret.

Lewis Howes 1:20:42 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:42 Something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, "Why can't we have that part again?"

Lewis Howes 1:20:47 Oh my goodness.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:47 I'm like, "Well, no, because that part wasn't really real."

Lewis Howes 1:20:49 Wasn't real.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:50 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:20:50 It was like this explosive-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:52 It, it's, with people, a physical symptoms. They have trouble sleeping 'cause of the rumination.

Lewis Howes 1:20:56 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:20:57 They, um- They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved. Like, self-care behaviors we call them. Like, things like, um, working out- Mm-hmm ... or eating well, or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically, like, completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape- Hmm ... when they're coming out of these relationships. They'll say to themselves- 'Cause then they'll start beating themselves up. "How could I stay in this? What was I thinking?" Well, that's- "I'm an idiot." You know? ... the worst part. It's the self-blame- Yeesh ... and the self-shame.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:21:27 Because the self-blame is, "This is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known." Yeah. Uh, that I'm, I'm, I'm an... And then I, "I'm a fool." And then they... A lot of people go back. Why? Right? So here... Why? Because they think the, the... Let's talk a little bit... I want my whiteboard. Yes. I got to use my whiteboard. We get to use the whiteboards. [laughs] So here we go. [laughs] So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle. Okay. Okay? Step one is something called... I'll write it down, I'll lift it up. Yes. Love bombing. Oh, my- Okay? Okay Love bombing is that big, seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. The, "We have a magical connection." [laughs] "Let's have a picnic on the beach." Wild and crazy sex. Oh, my gosh. Texting for 12 hours straight. "Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Uh, let's take a vacation for our third date." Oh, no. "I want you to meet all my friends." [laughs] "I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month, my lease is up." Oh, my God. Love bombing. Yeah. It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive, and what it does, it's a g- narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags. Oh. 'Cause you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep, that you're all like- The narcissist while they're getting- Or the unreal, um, sex you're having, or these amazing, like, constantly being these text messages, or being- going to San Francisco on your fourth date. You know? And you're thinking like, "Okay, red fla- what red flags? I'm having my fairy tale." "This is incredible." Yeah. The minute the narcissist knows they've got you- It's- ... when you kinda let down your guard. 'Cause some people are like, "This seems too good to be true." And then they're like, "Okay, I love you, too." Oh, right, right. I, I, I'm... Boom. That's the day- [laughs] ... something called- They got you ... devaluing starts. Oh, my gosh. Okay? Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs. Mm-hmm. Like, um, "Oh, gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook." Um, or- Oh, my gosh ... you know, it's like the digs. It's t- it's little, it's subtle. S- You're like, "How, where did this go? Like, where's, wh- where's this?" Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, "How do I get back here?" Now they start blaming themselves. [laughs] Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Now then we go to- I just feel like you're going through my life right now. Okay ... we go to something called the discard. Now, the discard is not always a breakup. Okay? Is this where, is this where, like, they won't speak to you for th- two weeks? It's the silent treatment. It's the- Oh, my gosh ... um, it's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. Oh, my God. It could be significant lying. [laughs] It could be, um, even, sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like, the not narcissistic person leaves, like- They're like, "I'm out" ... "I'm out, I can't do this." And then comes a phase- Oh, my gosh ... called hoovering. Hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard you're- Try to woo you back ... try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Hmm. Now, love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, say- It's seductive. It's a- ... maybe, "What was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me." This could be 'cause they cheated on you. Right. And they say things like, "You're so much better." And you know what? People fall for that, 'cause that's- Yeah ... that triangulation dynamic. That idea, very oedipal, that you're the favored child. Oh, my gosh. That you're the favored one. And the hoovering is- I'm choosing you. Yeah ... then in the hu- part of the hoovering is a dynamic called, you're gonna love this one, this is my guess, after what you, the way Hoover and Putin- Future. Future faking. Okay. Future faking is, "Uh, no, j- as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to..." Or, "I'm gonna get therapy." Or, "I know, let's just put it off for another six months. For sure I'm gonna do it then." They keep moving the goalposts. Oh. And future faking is what keeps people in the game, because they're like, they're promising the thing you want. Okay, well, six months later. Six months, "We're gonna have kids. We're gonna have kids. Yeah, for sure." Man. You know, like, "I just need to get my career established." And now you're 50, and you- Hmm ... don't have kids. Oh, yeah. Or, "We're gonna, uh, you know, we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there, and I know you said there were some better opportunities for you." Years you're waiting. Or, "I'm gonna get into therapy, I'm gonna work on these anger issues." And then if you push it, "God, you know what? You're really impatient." Oh. "You're, like, you are not a nice person." "Can't you just see what I'm going through in my life- Mm-hmm ... and I need time?" Yep. And yeah. That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else, and then they, they're done. And so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. Okay. They're like, "Well, what's wrong with me?" It doesn't always happen, and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered, because then it goes back to, it go- the cycle goes again and again and again. So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in, suck you back in. Oh, they bring you back, they bring you back in? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And they'll do that if, let's say, they're the one who left you, okay? And you finally g- start getting your life in order, and maybe you're dating someone else, and they find out. Then they wanna- That's when they want you back. They just wanna mess your stuff up. Or you're in a good place- They don't want you happy ... and you got your job you want. They don't want you happy. Why is that? They don't like losing, and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination. Oh, my gosh. So I tell people, like, maybe you could get a good- A g- a good trip to San Francisco-

Lewis Howes 1:27:01 Three months

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:01 ... and a couple of flowers-

Lewis Howes 1:27:02 Two months

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:02 ... and get out

Lewis Howes 1:27:02 And get out, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:03 Like, b- [laughs] before you get in too deep.

Lewis Howes 1:27:05 But if that happens, where they'll give you, like, a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:10 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:27:10 ... and then you're like, "You know what?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:11 They're gonna get mad.

Lewis Howes 1:27:12 "This, I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:14 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:27:14 "Like, it's not you, it's me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:15 No.

Lewis Howes 1:27:15 "I'm not ready." They're gonna get mad.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:16 They're gonna get mad.

Lewis Howes 1:27:16 So either way-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:17 It's true

Lewis Howes 1:27:17 ... once you're gonna, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:22 You're kind of sunk. Yeah, 'cause and they're, they actually-

Lewis Howes 1:27:24 You need to get out then

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:25 ... kind of, yeah, they want to get out

Lewis Howes 1:27:25 You gotta get out-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:26 You also feel-

Lewis Howes 1:27:26 ... the first weekend

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:27 ... you wanna get out. I, listen, here's an interesting-

Lewis Howes 1:27:29 And I got-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:29 ... tell on narcissistic people, and it, it, it applies more in LA than in a place like New York.

Lewis Howes 1:27:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:33 They, um, they, they drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off, and they-

Lewis Howes 1:27:39 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:39 ... come up on their bumpers, and they cut people off at-

Lewis Howes 1:27:41 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:42 ... on the freeway. And that's actually been, uh, documented in research.

Lewis Howes 1:27:45 That's a, so a narcissist is a bad driver.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:47 Bad driver. Dangerous driver, not bad. Not like dumb driver. Fast, cut people off, Hong Kong-

Lewis Howes 1:27:53 Oh my gosh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:53 ... road rage-y driver.

Lewis Howes 1:27:54 Anything else we should talk about?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:55 Last thing.

Lewis Howes 1:27:56 Yes, give it to me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:56 Gaslighting.

Lewis Howes 1:27:57 Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:58 Okay

Lewis Howes 1:27:58 ... I had a note here.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:27:59 So gaslighting's the word of our time, and if nothing else-

Lewis Howes 1:28:01 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:01 ... I want your, your podcast-

Lewis Howes 1:28:02 Tell me

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:02 ... is so amazing that I wanna make sure that people-

Lewis Howes 1:28:04 Bring it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:05 ... get things right here.

Lewis Howes 1:28:06 So what is gaslighting?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:06 Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking a part of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a l- little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process.

Lewis Howes 1:28:29 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:29 It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything.

Lewis Howes 1:28:36 Uh-huh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:36 And I were to say, um, uh, and we, we had our time, we were gonna meet the date, and I said, "You never said we were meeting on that day." And you'd be like, "What?" And you go back to your email and say, "No, it's right there."

Lewis Howes 1:28:46 Right, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:46 Right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you, because we don't really know each other.

Lewis Howes 1:28:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:55 Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute, say, "Did I not, did I not-"

Lewis Howes 1:28:59 Right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:28:59 ... "send that email right?" And you, you catch yourself, okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. "I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship." And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. "No, no, no, you did. You really did. Like, you said that," or I, I, I'm not being too sensitive. Like, a- and now you're getting more infr- more and more-

Lewis Howes 1:29:32 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:29:32 ... worked up, right?

Lewis Howes 1:29:32 Negative, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:29:33 And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, "Oh, yikes, somebody's a little bit crazy. Like, have you seen a therapist?"

Lewis Howes 1:29:39 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:29:40 So now what are they doing? Not only have they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they, they close it by saying, "There's something wrong with you."

Lewis Howes 1:29:48 Oh, man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:29:48 And you start believing it.

Lewis Howes 1:29:50 Oh, wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:29:50 Many people who are gaslighted will start wondering, "Maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me." And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person.

Lewis Howes 1:30:04 Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:05 That's the process. And so, but the initially, the ga- the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You gotta have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone.

Lewis Howes 1:30:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:24 Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, you say, "Uh, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting, and don't ever do that to me again." The gaslighter's probably gonna move on to a new target.

Lewis Howes 1:30:36 Ooh, they'll stop with you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:37 Yeah, 'cause yeah. So they'll say, like, "Eh, that-

Lewis Howes 1:30:39 "Oh, I can't do it with her"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:39 ... person's not a fertile target. I'm gonna move on to another one." Right? But the, so early on, when a person's, or a person says, "You're being too sensitive," say, "No, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions."

Lewis Howes 1:30:52 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:52 "I'm sad right now. I'm gonna stick with that."

Lewis Howes 1:30:54 That's a good one.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:55 "That's what I'm talking about."

Lewis Howes 1:30:55 That's a good one.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:30:56 Right? So the, and, and then the gaslighter will probably lose interest and, but they'll always get their last dig in. They'll say, "She's just a really difficult person."

Lewis Howes 1:31:06 Oh, wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:06 So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say... I, I wear that as a badge of honor. But you, but just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday.

Lewis Howes 1:31:17 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:17 Literally three hours, all gaslighting, because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work. It happens in families. It happens in-

Lewis Howes 1:31:25 Relationships, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:25 ... intimate relationships. It happens from the world at large. Like, no, every, everyone can, every, all, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, "It can't be equal. Like, I, uh, jobs."

Lewis Howes 1:31:37 So the first-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:38 Gaslighting

Lewis Howes 1:31:38 ... the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say without them saying... [sighs] 'Cause I feel like this has happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, "No, I never said that." And then it was like they'd bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:52 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:31:52 ... and be like, "Well, you this, this, this, this." And I'd be like, "Just focus on the one thing [laughs] we're talking about."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:57 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:31:57 And so I have to go to, you know-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:31:58 Mm

Lewis Howes 1:31:58 ... go around all these other things and talk about them where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:02 That's gaslighting. That all that-

Lewis Howes 1:32:04 It's exhausting

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:04 ... deflection, it's very exhausting.

Lewis Howes 1:32:05 It's like, let's just focus on this thing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:07 Right. So a great example g- or gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like, um, in a relationship, and, you know, "I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person."

Lewis Howes 1:32:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:22 "And there's been a lot of communication between the two of you. Like, there, it, it, it doesn't feel good. I, it doesn't feel good to me. This feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like, this isn't okay." They'll hit back with, "Let's go back to when you were in college, and you..." And you're like, "Wait a..." And then-

Lewis Howes 1:32:39 Oh, yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:40 ... you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard. Say, "Okay, I'm gonna table that. Let's, we'll get to that."

Lewis Howes 1:32:45 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:45 "Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it."

Lewis Howes 1:32:47 But let's focus on this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:48 "Let's go back to the original issue."

Lewis Howes 1:32:49 So keep going back to the original thing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:50 Yeah, go back to the original issue. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:32:51 Until they have a discussion-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:53 Until they, and then they'll get mad

Lewis Howes 1:32:53 ... and resolve.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:54 They'll get mad.

Lewis Howes 1:32:55 And they won't discuss.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:55 They won't discuss.

Lewis Howes 1:32:56 So how do you-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:57 You don't

Lewis Howes 1:32:57 ... find resolve-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:32:58 You don't find resolve [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:32:59 ... in these relationships?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:00 There's no resolve. There is no closure, and that's the radical acceptance.

Lewis Howes 1:33:04 So you just gotta accept this person- ... isn't going to have these conversations.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:08 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:33:08 This person's-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:09 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:33:09 ... not going to have rationality for certain things.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:12 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:33:13 Uh, it's gonna be their way or the highway-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:15 Correct

Lewis Howes 1:33:15 ... and they won't be flexible.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:16 Nope.

Lewis Howes 1:33:17 And you've either gotta live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:21 Right, and-

Lewis Howes 1:33:22 But being in an argument is only-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:23 Right

Lewis Howes 1:33:23 ... gonna make your life worse.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:25 Correct. And you might say, like, "That seems lonely." Yeah, and so I have worked with people who've stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships, who have done everything from get very involved in, like, a religious community, church community, something like that, to, um, do a lot of things with their friends.

Lewis Howes 1:33:41 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:41 Really build friendships, volunteer.

Lewis Howes 1:33:43 Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:45 They do. If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work.

Lewis Howes 1:33:47 They're screwed.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:47 Like, malignant narcissist-

Lewis Howes 1:33:48 They're screwed

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:33:48 ... it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, um, church community. Um, some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way. Uh, develop hobbies they care deeply about, a garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music.

Lewis Howes 1:34:07 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:07 Something like that. I've known people to have lovers, you know-

Lewis Howes 1:34:11 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:11 ... to say, like, "I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years." And so they'll do that, and they'll say, "I, I felt a little guilty, but-"

Lewis Howes 1:34:17 But-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:17 "... they're having sex with other people."

Lewis Howes 1:34:18 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:18 "I haven't been touched." And they're like, "You know, I know I'm not..." And, the-

Lewis Howes 1:34:21 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:21 ... it's sort of like, "I know I'm not very attractive," but they found... Everyone's got someone. Everyone finds someone, and they find their someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things, finding their way, um, finding their way to get that support-

Lewis Howes 1:34:34 Right

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:34 ... on the, um, when they're not being, uh, when, when they have to stay.

Lewis Howes 1:34:39 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:39 Because that's where you get un-gaslighted, right? Person saying, "No, that's not, that's not okay," or, "This person's conduct isn't okay." Um, but I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, "I can fix this," and, and I'm telling you here, you can't. This is-

Lewis Howes 1:34:51 Stop trying to fix it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:52 ... you just stop trying to fix it. It's just not gonna work.

Lewis Howes 1:34:54 That was probably my challenge-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:56 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:34:56 ... is I wanted to fix.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:57 Mm-hmm. Which, again, your athletic background-

Lewis Howes 1:34:59 [sighs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:34:59 ... it makes sense. I mean, the people who have had a track record of being able to get things done-

Lewis Howes 1:35:05 Uh-huh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:05 ... they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.

Lewis Howes 1:35:09 I think I was, I think I was attracted to it, and then vul-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:11 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:35:11 ... and then s- wanted to stay in it

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:12 It's attractive

Lewis Howes 1:35:13 And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:15 It's-

Lewis Howes 1:35:15 ... when it's a, when it's a full energy on someone else-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:18 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:35:18 ... opposed to a, a combination of let's work together-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:21 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:35:22 ... on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:27 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:35:27 Not [sighs] all the energy in one place.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:28 Correct. Correct. And it, it's, it's very-

Lewis Howes 1:35:31 Draining

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:31 ... it is very draining, and I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, "A good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them." No-

Lewis Howes 1:35:39 Being unselfish all the time

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:40 ... a relationship i- yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:35:41 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:41 You being unselfish all... No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, "Hey, do you mind going to this, this dinner for work?" And you're like, "Of course I'll go to that dinner for work," because you care about them, and even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kinda giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it.

Lewis Howes 1:35:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:35:59 It's that you understand that there's a give and take, and you give graciously.

Lewis Howes 1:36:03 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:04 And the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about, you know, grinding your teeth and, you know, being irritated you have to go, but really that g- that giving with grace. But at the... I'll be frank with you. It really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality.

Lewis Howes 1:36:18 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:18 That it's not, it's... And I keep-

Lewis Howes 1:36:20 [laughs]

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:20 ... using this word agreeableness, right?

Lewis Howes 1:36:21 Being agreeable.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:22 So ag- being agreeable, and that's actually a personality style, agreeableness.

Lewis Howes 1:36:25 So how do you know when someone's agreeable?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:27 All those things I talk about.

Lewis Howes 1:36:27 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:27 Flexibility and warmth-

Lewis Howes 1:36:28 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:29 ... and kindness and-

Lewis Howes 1:36:29 Just the time.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:30 It's just, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:36:30 ... seeing it over time and seeing their words-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:32 But here's the problem

Lewis Howes 1:36:32 ... and their actions.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:33 Agreeable men make less money.

Lewis Howes 1:36:35 Agreeable men make less money.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:36 Make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly, bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the impra- probability that that person's gonna be agreeable is a lot lower.

Lewis Howes 1:36:47 So you just need to find a unicorn, someone who's agreeable and who has money, and-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:51 I have not.

Lewis Howes 1:36:52 You've never seen that?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:53 Not... Very r- I, I know. Yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head.

Lewis Howes 1:36:57 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:36:57 Mm-hmm. Billionaire, most agreeable man in the world.

Lewis Howes 1:37:00 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:00 Sweet, sweetest-

Lewis Howes 1:37:02 Kind, humble

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:02 ... married to a raging narcissist. Do you care? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:37:08 [laughs] Oh, man.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:09 He's great. He's a darling. Darling man.

Lewis Howes 1:37:11 Oh, man, but just gets walked all over in his relationship.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:13 Oh my God, beyond. Walked all over. He's-

Lewis Howes 1:37:15 But in his business he can go and have-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:17 Killed it

Lewis Howes 1:37:17 ... he can be assertive and, yeah-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:19 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:37:19 ... make decisions.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:20 I've m- I've met a few agreeable, um, rich folks. I ha- I mean, really, and well, not just rich, like, really good at what they do. They... Unicorns. Like, they, they definitely, um... But what was interesting, you know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy, at the end of their career, they got taken down. They got, like, people-

Lewis Howes 1:37:40 Why?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:40 ... in the, the company. They, they were a soft target.

Lewis Howes 1:37:43 They were the vulnerable targets.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:44 They were the target.

Lewis Howes 1:37:44 So the owners-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:45 They built the company

Lewis Howes 1:37:45 ... they became the scapegoat, and they're gonna, "We're gonna take the equity from them-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:37:48 ... or they're gonna be the one to blame," or-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:50 Yeah, they did. They got a group of, kinda got a voting block-

Lewis Howes 1:37:51 'Cause they weren't willing to fight for what they-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:53 Well, they w- no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.

Lewis Howes 1:37:56 They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs or whatever, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:37:58 And because they were c- they were collaborative people. They actually thought they were bringing up the next generation.

Lewis Howes 1:38:02 It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I was, I've talked about this many times on my show, um, that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:14 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:38:15 And, um, it definitely shaped a part of me-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:18 Yeah, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:38:18 ... for my life-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:19 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:38:19 ... until I started to, uh, heal that, that process-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:24 Mm-hmm, yeah

Lewis Howes 1:38:24 ... and really go through a healing journey of, you know, the shame that I felt for so long.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:29 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:38:29 The guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:32 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:38:32 ... or not feeling lovable, all these different things, and to kinda reshaping the story, the narrative.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:38 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:38:40 And finding the, uh, the value-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:42 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:38:42 ... in the process-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:43 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:38:43 ... and in the, the pain, I guess.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:45 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:38:45 And really finding the value-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:46 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:38:46 ... from 25 years of holding it in, and it's channeling it, saying, "How can I be of service at a greater level?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:54 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:38:54 "How can I use this to support other men who have-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:56 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:38:56 ... gone through sexual abuse?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:38:57 Yes, which is quite a few.

Lewis Howes 1:38:58 And that's why I wrote the book, The Masked Man, Masked... Yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:01 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:39:01 One in four women, obviously. And, uh, what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:07 Mm-mm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:07 You know?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:08 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:39:08 And they hold it in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:09 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:39:09 And then they- Be- become angry or reactive or rageful or, you know, dismissive or whatever it is, they have the, put a mask on.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:17 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:18 And, um, you know, that shame causes that mask, or at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So for, for many years, I had to learn how to kind of unwind and heal that process and, and it's, it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can... 'Cause I used to be very competitive.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:38 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:38 It was like I had to win at all costs.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:40 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:40 And now I'm like, "Well, that didn't work for me." You know, it, it got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled, and I didn't have peace, 'cause I always needed to win.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:50 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:50 Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30 to, I just wanna collaborate and I just wanna support others and work together.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:39:57 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:39:57 And it feels a lot more peaceful inside, and fulfilling.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:00 What do you think the function was of trying to win?

Lewis Howes 1:40:03 Oh, to get love.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:03 To get love.

Lewis Howes 1:40:04 And be accepted.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:04 Yeah, to get love.

Lewis Howes 1:40:05 To get love and be accepted.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:06 I was gonna say maybe to be safe too.

Lewis Howes 1:40:07 Yeah, to get love.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:08 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:40:08 To be accepted, to feel like I was... Yeah. To fit in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:12 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:40:12 You know, 'cause I didn't feel I had any friends growing up.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:14 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:40:14 So it was like, "Well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:18 Right. Right.

Lewis Howes 1:40:18 And I'm desirable.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:20 Right. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:40:21 If I lose, then who wants to be, you know-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:23 Right

Lewis Howes 1:40:23 ... around me?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:23 Yeah, and then the shame gets activated.

Lewis Howes 1:40:25 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:25 But it's also safety. I mean, that's why, that idea if I win I'm safe.

Lewis Howes 1:40:28 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:29 That's the ultimate get-

Lewis Howes 1:40:30 Yes

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:30 ... for any human being-

Lewis Howes 1:40:31 I'm not alone

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:31 ... is to be safe. I'm not alone. If I, if I'm accepted, I'm safe.

Lewis Howes 1:40:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:34 If I'm loved, I'm safe.

Lewis Howes 1:40:36 And it's funny, when you, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:39 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:40:39 When I talk with Jay about this, he's like, "Just being in collaboration is the key." And I was like, "I know. That's what I feel like-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:45 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:40:45 ... "for the last eight years."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:40:46 Because you're safe when you're still collaborating.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:40:48 You're still with people.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:49 Right.

Lewis Howes 1:40:49 You're helping each other accelerate together.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:52 Right. But there's a fear, there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind.

Lewis Howes 1:40:58 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:40:59 So if you become-

Lewis Howes 1:40:59 Which may happen

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:00 ... an island unto yourself-

Lewis Howes 1:41:01 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:01 ... you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a, a blockade. And then, and if they leave you-

Lewis Howes 1:41:05 Yeah. I'm, I'm at the top of the mountain and everyone else is down.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:07 Yes. If they leave you, it's not even the, it, it's not the collaboration that's the issue, it's the potential for abandonment.

Lewis Howes 1:41:13 Interesting. Like, if I'm, if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then I collaborate with others, but then they take it all-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:20 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:41:20 ... and they leave me behind.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:21 Mm-hmm. That's, well, they, they, they, they to- took it all away.

Lewis Howes 1:41:23 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:24 I mean, this was somebody, and that, that, that man, that agreeable billionaire was collaborative from the day one of his career.

Lewis Howes 1:41:29 So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:37 It's not easy. It's, with the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what, what is the be- the best offense is a good defense.

Lewis Howes 1:41:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:46 You better have a good defense.

Lewis Howes 1:41:47 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:47 You know?

Lewis Howes 1:41:47 Get your contracts in order.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:48 Yeah, get your contracts-

Lewis Howes 1:41:49 Get everything

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:49 ... in order, document. Um, don't put your head-

Lewis Howes 1:41:53 Mm

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:53 ... in the sand. I mean, a lot, the reason narcissism has proliferated the way it has is enabling.

Lewis Howes 1:41:58 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:41:58 People keep giving it a free pass. "Oh, come on now. You know, don't hate the player, hate the game."

Lewis Howes 1:42:02 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:02 It's not how that works, right?

Lewis Howes 1:42:03 No, it's the player.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:03 And yeah, so-

Lewis Howes 1:42:04 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:04 It's, it's the player.

Lewis Howes 1:42:05 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:05 Yeah. No. So like, it's, it's a, we have all this kind of culture around... And i- in some ways people, like, want to see, they, they, I... The, the, the best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic, we know they had something up their sleeve, but we wanna believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we wanna believe in the magic.

Lewis Howes 1:42:32 Wanna believe they're-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:33 We wanna believe that they're gonna be... We wanna believe that this charismatic person business really-

Lewis Howes 1:42:37 Is real

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:37 ... is real. That they're, that someone this larger than life is larger than life, rather than an ordinary person who, who is just, has ordinary things and could fall and, you know, and, um... We want superheroes. We want-

Lewis Howes 1:42:50 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:42:50 It's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.

Lewis Howes 1:42:58 I'm writing that. [laughs] You've got, uh, some great books.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:02 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:43:02 Don't You Know Who I Am: How to Stay Sane [laughs] in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:10 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:43:11 Um, and you've also got another book ca- called Should I Stay or Should I Go? [laughs] I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. It just feels like, uh, the best way to, um, you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:32 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:43:32 Take it slow. Learn the person.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:34 Take it slow. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:43:35 Learn as long as you can.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:36 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:43:36 Spot the red flags.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:37 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:43:38 You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:43 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:43:43 I was watching some of the videos. Very inspiring. Um, so if you wanna make sure you learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:51 Learn the person, take it slow, and just don't justify bad behavior.

Lewis Howes 1:43:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:43:56 When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck-

Lewis Howes 1:44:03 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:03 ... you know, scorpions sting.

Lewis Howes 1:44:03 It's not gonna go away.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:04 There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got, it's gonna sting you-

Lewis Howes 1:44:11 Yeah

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:11 ... so walk the other way. And, and once it stings you once, don't pick it up again.

Lewis Howes 1:44:14 How else can we be supportive of you right now, besides checking out your website-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:18 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:44:18 ... YouTube, social media, the books?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:21 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:44:21 You do workshops now.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:22 I mean, I do workshops. If you go to my I- Instagram, follow me on Instagram.

Lewis Howes 1:44:25 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:25 We often put, you know, we put the, uh, let people know what's coming up then. We're gonna have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships.

Lewis Howes 1:44:33 Ah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:33 That's coming up next year. Um, yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there.

Lewis Howes 1:44:38 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:38 Every day we have a new video coming out, so you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching.

Lewis Howes 1:44:44 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:44 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:44:44 Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:46 Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere.

Lewis Howes 1:44:47 Everywhere.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:48 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:44:48 There we go. Okay, cool. Um, couple final questions. This one is called the three truths.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:53 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:44:53 It's one I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario, it's your last day on Earth many years away.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:44:59 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:44:59 You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:01 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:02 And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:06 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:06 Or go somewhere else.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:07 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:07 But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:10 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:10 The books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:17 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:18 And this is all we would have.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:19 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:19 From your information.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:20 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 1:45:20 What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:24 Mm-hmm. If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable.

Lewis Howes 1:45:32 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:33 Trust and honor your truth, and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.

Lewis Howes 1:45:37 Mm. Those are beautiful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:38 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:39 Those are beautiful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:40 Mm.

Lewis Howes 1:45:41 Uh, before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramani, I wanna acknowledge you for your commitment to this information-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:46 Thank you

Lewis Howes 1:45:47 ... to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, going, have gone through a lot of this to, uh, who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:56 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:45:56 ... and they're bad-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:57 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:45:57 ... and they're not good enough-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:45:59 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:45:59 ... in these types of relationships.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:00 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:46:01 And so for you to commit your adult life to this-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:46:05 ... to researching, studying, teaching, uh, in the university in an academic level, and now, you know, to the, the masses-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:13 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:46:13 ... with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:16 Thank you

Lewis Howes 1:46:18 ... the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:21 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:46:21 ... to learn these things-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:22 Yeah

Lewis Howes 1:46:23 ... and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships, and have a much more peaceful life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:35 Well, I appreciate that.

Lewis Howes 1:46:36 So, yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:36 Pain is a hell of a mentor.

Lewis Howes 1:46:38 Absolutely, it is, and it's gonna keep coming until w- [laughs] until we learn the lesson.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:42 Right. That's right.

Lewis Howes 1:46:42 It's gonna keep coming.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:43 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:46:44 My final question is what's your definition of greatness?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:46:47 Mm. My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.

Lewis Howes 1:47:02 There you go. Dr. Ramani, thank you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:03 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:47:04 Appreciate it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:04 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:47:05 What should the adult be saying or doing for the younger version of themselves that is having an emotional human experience that is not-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:15 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 1:47:15 ... their age in this moment?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:16 Mm-hmm.

Lewis Howes 1:47:17 What's the conversation or the-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:19 It's exactly what they wished at age eight-

Lewis Howes 1:47:21 Ooh

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:47:21 ... that, that someone would've said to them. We all know what that is. We all know-