If You Want To BUILD SEXUAL DESIRE In A Relationship WATCH THIS! | Esther Perel & Lewis Howes

Lewis Howes 0:00 [upbeat music] Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I'm very excited about our guest today. Thank you so much for being here, Esther Perel.

Esther Perel 0:10 It's a pleasure.

Lewis Howes 0:11 Uh, you've got an amazing book called Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence. And, uh, so make sure everyone go and check out this book. We'll have it linked up at the end of the show notes as well. I became, uh, aware of you before Summit Series. I remember hearing about this book and who you were, but I never really dove into your work until Summit Series happened, um, which is a conference for essentially inspiring entrepreneurs and people looking to take over the world in their own industry.

Esther Perel 0:38 I call it the mixture of TED, Davos, and Burning Man.

Lewis Howes 0:41 There you go. Yes. Exactly. That type of people, that type of crowd. And, uh, you spoke-- You were supposed to speak at, like, a little tiny restaurant, uh, on th-this cruise ship, and I remember going to this, and, like, just the line outside, we couldn't even get in. So I remember experiencing that, being like, "Oh, I hope she, you know, talks again." And then you talked, like, four more times. And so I showed up early for, like, one of the few, the few ones after that, and it took, like, an hour for you to start because there was, like, thousands of people out waiting to try to get in this one session. And so I said, "Okay, there's something here, this conversation about relationships, sex, desire, love, intimacy, um, erotic intelligence, which you call, and there's something here that we're struggling with in our society today, and especially with driven, passionate entrepreneurs who are always up to the next big thing and next shiny object." And, uh, so I'm glad that you were able to come in here and be in, in the studio in LA, and thank you for being here.

Esther Perel 1:37 It's true.

Lewis Howes 1:37 And, and the first question I wanna ask before we actually get into all of these, uh, juicy relationship questions is,

Lewis Howes 1:44 who was the most influential person growing up for you in your childhood, and what was the thing that influenced you about them?

Esther Perel 1:51 Ooh, the most.

Lewis Howes 1:52 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 1:52 I never have one for these kinds of questions. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:55 Okay. Well, what's one that maybe comes to mind, someone who was really influential, and a lesson they taught you?

Esther Perel 1:59 Okay. I will start the, with the most close person. Um, I would say my father.

Lewis Howes 2:04 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 2:05 Um, why? Uh, my father was illiterate.

Lewis Howes 2:10 Okay.

Esther Perel 2:11 My father and my mother, actually, both of them came, uh, to Belgium by chance after each of them being four and five years in concentration camps in Poland. Uh, they both were the sole survivors of their entire family. Uh, they came with absolutely nothing. They were illegal refugees for five years-

Lewis Howes 2:29 Mm

Esther Perel 2:29 ... before they even became legalized. And my father always was a person who said, "It doesn't matter how brilliant they are or how rich they are. What matters the most is how decent they are."

Lewis Howes 2:42 Mm.

Esther Perel 2:43 And when you are in a concentration camp, you get to see the limits of a person's humanity and the stretch and the outreach of a person's humanity and their decency. And for some reason, that always stayed with me, meaning don't get impressed by all the appearances and by how everything looks.

Lewis Howes 3:01 Yeah.

Esther Perel 3:01 Look at the person. And then he said, "And a friend is the person who will always do more for themselves as they-- for the other," sorry, "as they will do for themselves."

Lewis Howes 3:09 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 3:09 That's your friend. And check people out on that basis. And he had never read a book. He couldn't read and write pretty much.

Lewis Howes 3:17 Mm.

Esther Perel 3:17 He read the newspaper. He spoke five languages, but poorly. And, and he was a grand human being, and I often, often think of him in relation to that, especially when I come into the entrepreneurial world-

Lewis Howes 3:29 Sure

Esther Perel 3:29 ... which is often a world of inflated selves. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 3:32 Mm-hmm. [laughs] Exactly, yeah. Now, what was your-- What would you say is your biggest fear growing up? Did you have a big fear or insecurity that was a challenge for you?

Esther Perel 3:40 Yes. Um, I grew up in the Flemish part of Belgium. Um, and on one hand, I had nothing to fear on the external level. But I think that-

Lewis Howes 3:50 Mm

Esther Perel 3:50 ... the history of my parents was such that I always lived with the feeling that everything can disappear from one minute to the next. I had no sense that what we have is here to stay.

Lewis Howes 4:03 Mm.

Esther Perel 4:04 I have never thought in terms of permanence.

Lewis Howes 4:06 Right.

Esther Perel 4:07 I, um, happened to be born in Belgium by the fluke of our fatality. Um, I don't really belong to a place.

Lewis Howes 4:15 [laughs]

Esther Perel 4:15 And, um, for a long time, I felt very uprooted by that.

Lewis Howes 4:19 Okay.

Esther Perel 4:19 Now, I think it actually became also a resource for me in my life. But at the time, that sense that, you know, you cannot, you cannot count on anything to be there tomorrow just because it's there today.

Lewis Howes 4:30 Right. Okay.

Esther Perel 4:31 That sense of fragility and impermanence-

Lewis Howes 4:34 Mm

Esther Perel 4:34 ... and the dread. The-- It wasn't fear, it was dread.

Lewis Howes 4:37 Do you still have that dread today?

Esther Perel 4:39 Yes. Yes, I do.

Lewis Howes 4:41 Really?

Esther Perel 4:41 I do. It's not a visible dread-

Lewis Howes 4:43 Mm

Esther Perel 4:43 ... and, uh, and-- But yes, I have free-floating anxiety-

Lewis Howes 4:48 Mm

Esther Perel 4:49 ... that I can't always pinpoint on certain things.

Lewis Howes 4:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 4:52 Um, but I ha-- I live with a sense that, you know, um, actually, when everything goes really well-

Lewis Howes 4:59 That's when you're afraid the most?

Esther Perel 5:00 Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Lewis Howes 5:00 [laughs] 'Cause it can all be taken away the next day, right?

Esther Perel 5:02 Yes, yes. And I, of course, never think that if I go to the doctor, I'm gonna come out with a small booboo.

Lewis Howes 5:06 Uh-huh. [laughs]

Esther Perel 5:06 I think that the day I have something, since I've always been really blessedly healthy, that the day I get something, it will be a big booboo.

Lewis Howes 5:13 Oh, man.

Esther Perel 5:13 I mean, I, I have a bit of catastrophic thinking. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 5:16 Okay. How does that-

Esther Perel 5:17 Even though I act completely counterphobic. I act like I have no fears.

Lewis Howes 5:22 Yeah.

Esther Perel 5:22 But inside, there is that little voice that just... [laughs]

Lewis Howes 5:25 So how do you, uh-- How does that work for you? How does that support you in your day-to-day work, in your relationships, by having that dread sense, that feeling? Does it work for you or not?

Esther Perel 5:35 You know, it changed over time.

Lewis Howes 5:37 Yeah.

Esther Perel 5:37 I think that with age, you used to-- You, you take your strengths and your weaknesses and you tweak 'em-

Lewis Howes 5:42 Yeah

Esther Perel 5:42 ... you know, back and forth. But, um, I think that it'll, it has always made me, um... Well, I'll tell you the first thing. Because I, uh, because of the history of my parents-

Lewis Howes 5:56 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 5:56 ... because I in many way was kind of a miracle child, um, my brother too, because we were symbols of revival, and because it proved to our parents that they still were human in a way-

Lewis Howes 6:06 Right

Esther Perel 6:06 ... that they could still bring people into the world, I always had a clear sense that my life was not gonna be small.

Lewis Howes 6:13 Sure.

Esther Perel 6:13 My life has to be big.

Lewis Howes 6:14 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 6:14 Big doesn't mean successful and money. Big meant meaningful, rich, layered-

Lewis Howes 6:19 Mm

Esther Perel 6:19 ... com- you know.

Lewis Howes 6:20 It's not necessarily well known or famous, but feeling f-

Esther Perel 6:24 Full

Lewis Howes 6:25 ... full.

Esther Perel 6:25 Full.

Lewis Howes 6:26 Yeah. Not dead.

Esther Perel 6:27 Full. Not dead. I mean-

Lewis Howes 6:28 Yeah

Esther Perel 6:28 ... there's a reason I write about eroticism, right?

Lewis Howes 6:30 Yes.

Esther Perel 6:31 And that sense-

Lewis Howes 6:32 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 6:32 ... that I was not gonna be mediocre, you know? I'm not, I'm not content with just the average of something, that it has to be not the best, it has to be the right one for me at that moment. That may be the beautiful spot or the, the right friend to be with or-

Lewis Howes 6:48 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 6:48 ... or the right act to take in relation-

Lewis Howes 6:50 Yeah

Esther Perel 6:50 ... to somebody or to some cause, but that sense that my life has to be big, uh-

Lewis Howes 6:56 I like it

Esther Perel 6:56 ... you know, has been with me since I was young.

Lewis Howes 6:59 Sure, sure. Okay. So,

Lewis Howes 7:01 so tell me why you wrote this book and why you got into, I guess, this topic in general. What made you wanna start this process?

Esther Perel 7:07 [laughs] You know, the funny thing is it's a fluke actually.

Lewis Howes 7:10 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 7:10 I never wrote about sexuality until about 10, 12 years ago. I did write about relationships plenty.

Lewis Howes 7:16 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 7:16 Um, for the past 30 years I've been a couples therapist and a relationship expert. Um, I work with companies, I work, um, with families and couples on modern relationships.

Lewis Howes 7:28 Right.

Esther Perel 7:28 And that always involved looking at how does cultural change-

Lewis Howes 7:32 Yeah

Esther Perel 7:32 ... affect relationships? Migration, education, technology, individualism, consumer society. How do all these things, the shift from communism to democracy-

Lewis Howes 7:44 Mm

Esther Perel 7:44 ... how do big cultural changes affect relationships? Always been doing that. Sex was a kind of a side subject, and then I was basically a little bit looking for a new topic, and, uh, and I got inspired by the Clinton scandal-

Lewis Howes 7:59 Okay

Esther Perel 7:59 ... basically.

Lewis Howes 8:00 When was that?

Esther Perel 8:00 That was in, uh, the late '90s.

Lewis Howes 8:03 Okay.

Esther Perel 8:04 But it moved all the way into the beginning 2000.

Lewis Howes 8:07 Right.

Esther Perel 8:07 I don't remember the exact year, but the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal for me from a cultural point of view was very interesting.

Lewis Howes 8:14 Mm.

Esther Perel 8:15 Why was the United States so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about infidelity?

Lewis Howes 8:22 Mm.

Esther Perel 8:23 The rest of the world, and I just spoke to 4,000 people in Mexico a couple months ago, and it was so important to watch this difference. It was the complete contrast to the States-

Lewis Howes 8:32 Sure

Esther Perel 8:33 ... has always opted the other way around. You preserve the family at all cost, thanks to women, and you make compromises and tolerance for infidelity.

Lewis Howes 8:44 Really?

Esther Perel 8:45 Yes.

Lewis Howes 8:45 All over the world?

Esther Perel 8:46 All over the world.

Lewis Howes 8:46 Especially in Europe, it's like every married man seems to have like a mistress-

Esther Perel 8:50 No

Lewis Howes 8:50 ... essentially, right or no?

Esther Perel 8:51 Let's be very clear. Americans don't cheat one iota less than the French.

Lewis Howes 8:54 Say it again.

Esther Perel 8:55 Americans do not cheat one iota less than the French.

Lewis Howes 8:59 Less, right, right, right.

Esther Perel 8:59 They just feel more guilty about it.

Lewis Howes 9:00 Right. The French are just-

Esther Perel 9:02 So-

Lewis Howes 9:02 It's just well known. It's just part of life, right?

Esther Perel 9:04 It's not part of life. It is-

Lewis Howes 9:06 Mm

Esther Perel 9:06 ... changing a great deal-

Lewis Howes 9:08 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 9:08 ... and it's clear that most of the time throughout history there has been a complete double standard when-

Lewis Howes 9:14 Yes

Esther Perel 9:14 ... it comes to infidelity. It's a privilege for men. It's almost a sanctioned license with all kinds of theories, vi- revolutionary and biological theories that justify their need to roam, and it's been way too dangerous for women. But that doesn't mean that, you know, you give the woman a car and then you'll see what she will really do.

Lewis Howes 9:33 Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 9:34 You know, if you don't trap her into the house.

Lewis Howes 9:36 Right.

Esther Perel 9:37 Um-

Lewis Howes 9:37 [laughs] Right. Exactly

Esther Perel 9:38 ... so it's-- adultery has always existed.

Lewis Howes 9:41 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 9:41 But what was interesting for me was how, how people would scream at it here, make it a matter of national political agenda, and not blink an eye at multiple divorces, which-

Lewis Howes 9:53 Mm

Esther Perel 9:53 ... create the dissolution of the entire family system. Why is that so much preferable to the other? That was the original question. And then I began to think a little bit more about, okay, that leads me to think about Americans and sex. There's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality that fascinates me. I've been working here for almost 30 years at the time.

Lewis Howes 10:16 Right.

Esther Perel 10:16 And why is it that in the US sex is the risk factor, and in Europe being irresponsible is the risk factor? Sex is a natural part of human development. Okay?

Lewis Howes 10:27 What do you mean by irresponsible?

Esther Perel 10:29 Not being protective.

Lewis Howes 10:31 Gotcha.

Esther Perel 10:31 Not being respectful.

Lewis Howes 10:32 Gotcha.

Esther Perel 10:33 Uh, not being consensual. Um-

Lewis Howes 10:35 But actually the act of doing it w- uh, with someone else is-

Esther Perel 10:38 It's part of norm- it's part of normal life

Lewis Howes 10:39 ... it's part of life, yeah.

Esther Perel 10:40 We have comprehensive sex education from age four.

Lewis Howes 10:43 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 10:43 Why is it that here you have no public health policy on adolescent sexuality?

Lewis Howes 10:49 Right.

Esther Perel 10:49 Why is it that despite that, no campaigns and abstinence campaigns, Americans have earlier onset of sexual activity than the most liberal Dutch, more STDs-

Lewis Howes 10:59 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 10:59 ... and more teen pregnancies-

Lewis Howes 11:01 Right

Esther Perel 11:01 ... than 35 developing countries combined?

Lewis Howes 11:05 Why is that? It's 'cause we're not educated early on, or?

Esther Perel 11:07 Yes.

Lewis Howes 11:07 Mm.

Esther Perel 11:07 Because they are, there is an enormous, uh, uh, taboo on sex education-

Lewis Howes 11:14 The fear or, yeah

Esther Perel 11:14 ... with the kind of sense that if you educate people, they're going to be promiscuous, rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression and the Puritanism that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smut and titillation.

Lewis Howes 11:30 Mm. Mm.

Esther Perel 11:30 So I had-- I basically wrote a little article-

Lewis Howes 11:34 [laughs]

Esther Perel 11:35 ... in a trade magazine, not even in a, the general, uh... Then it got taken into the broad, uh, press and, uh, and it led to this book, which is translated in 26 languages.

Lewis Howes 11:45 Yeah.

Esther Perel 11:46 And, uh, and hence I became, uh, now suddenly I didn't just look at relationships and culture, but I'd look-

Lewis Howes 11:52 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 11:52 ... at the triangle, sexuality, relationships, and culture, using sexuality to analyze societal changes-

Lewis Howes 12:00 Mm

Esther Perel 12:00 ... cultural changes, families, relationships. And the individual self

Lewis Howes 12:04 What are the core, uh, reasons or the core things you see over and over that, um, either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer you're in? What are the, what are the ones that, what are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?

Esther Perel 12:17 Hmm. So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?

Lewis Howes 12:22 A thriving one.

Esther Perel 12:23 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 12:23 Yeah.

Esther Perel 12:23 What can go wrong?

Lewis Howes 12:24 Uh-huh.

Esther Perel 12:25 And how do you fix it?

Lewis Howes 12:26 Okay.

Esther Perel 12:26 So you started with the middle question.

Lewis Howes 12:28 [laughs] Yeah, yes.

Esther Perel 12:28 What goes wrong? [laughs] I think there's a number of things in a relationship that g- that, uh, that become the s- the, the kind of, uh, cornerstones of the demise, okay? And I'm not gonna list them in order, but they all-

Lewis Howes 12:43 Sure

Esther Perel 12:43 ... are part of each other. Um, indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important.

Lewis Howes 12:54 Okay.

Esther Perel 12:55 I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.

Lewis Howes 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 13:09 There's a com-

Lewis Howes 13:09 You just don't care. You've lost interest

Esther Perel 13:11 There's just ... But it's more than losing of interest.

Lewis Howes 13:13 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:13 It's also when you are indifferent, you degrade the other person. They're less important to you. They don't matter.

Lewis Howes 13:19 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:19 And ultimately, what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning.

Lewis Howes 13:28 Right.

Esther Perel 13:28 I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me. You want my me- m- you want my wellbeing. You're proud of me. You, you want good for me. You're benevolent.

Lewis Howes 13:38 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:38 All of that. When you are indifferent, that whole thing goes, and then you start to, there's that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect. That. The second one is neglect. Neglect, when people just basically take each other for granted.

Lewis Howes 13:53 Hmm.

Esther Perel 13:54 You know? I- they take more care of their car than of their partner.

Lewis Howes 13:57 Or their dog or-

Esther Perel 13:58 Or their dog

Lewis Howes 13:58 ... yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 13:58 Anybody, anything. Their yard, anything. Anything gets attendance. Any-

Lewis Howes 14:02 Their business, yeah

Esther Perel 14:02 Their business, for sure. Their business, for sure. You know, everything gets priority. Everything gets r- reviewed, evaluated-

Lewis Howes 14:10 [laughs]

Esther Perel 14:11 ... attended to, 360s, you name it. You know, new input. Y- you ... My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating, and then once they seal the knot, it's like as if, they tie the knot, it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore.

Lewis Howes 14:27 Hmm.

Esther Perel 14:27 And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just gonna live on its own.

Lewis Howes 14:35 Right.

Esther Perel 14:35 Act like a cactus.

Lewis Howes 14:36 Right.

Esther Perel 14:37 Violence. Violence, the abuse, the level of, of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades.

Lewis Howes 14:48 Why is that?

Esther Perel 14:48 Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone.

Lewis Howes 14:54 Hmm.

Esther Perel 14:55 Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're gonna be there anyway. They're just gonna take it because it's family, and family is this kind of, this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily. So you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone-

Lewis Howes 15:15 Hmm

Esther Perel 15:15 ... and a dismissal that is phenomenal. So that kind of violence.

Lewis Howes 15:19 [laughs]

Esther Perel 15:19 I'm not talking physical violence-

Lewis Howes 15:20 Right

Esther Perel 15:20 ... and all the other big, big things, you know?

Lewis Howes 15:22 You're talking about aggression or re- resentment or-

Esther Perel 15:25 All of that

Lewis Howes 15:25 ... yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 15:26 All of that, you know?

Lewis Howes 15:27 Passive aggressiveness, all those things, yeah.

Esther Perel 15:29 Right. All of that.

Lewis Howes 15:29 Yeah.

Esther Perel 15:29 And then, and then, um, contempt I think is the top one.

Lewis Howes 15:34 Yeah.

Esther Perel 15:34 The contempt is the killer of them all because in, in the contempt there is a real, there's the degradation of the other. It's, it's that, that complete dis- you're nothing. You're nothing.

Lewis Howes 15:45 Hmm.

Esther Perel 15:45 I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up, that pff, you know.

Lewis Howes 15:50 Hmm.

Esther Perel 15:50 The f- uh, do you th- who do you think you are?

Lewis Howes 15:52 Right.

Esther Perel 15:52 What are ... And that's it. You're, you're done. You're done.

Lewis Howes 15:55 So how do we even get to this place of these-

Esther Perel 15:57 [laughs]

Lewis Howes 15:57 ... these places? We c-

Esther Perel 15:58 After having been so in love and so romantic-

Lewis Howes 16:00 [laughs] Exactly

Esther Perel 16:01 ... right? [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:01 Is, is desire, uh, reflect that? Or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories? Or does that not play into, to it at all?

Esther Perel 16:10 Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other, the one you have with your parents or the people who raise you, and the one you have with the people you fall in love with.

Lewis Howes 16:22 Hmm.

Esther Perel 16:23 People can sit in my office all the time and say, "I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this." No. You're the, the only one, and now we go back in history. And I'm sorry to be the psychologist-

Lewis Howes 16:42 Hmm

Esther Perel 16:42 ... but that's really [laughs]

Lewis Howes 16:44 Right.

Esther Perel 16:44 It is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking. All these essential verbs of relationships, we learn that at home.

Lewis Howes 16:58 We also learn jealousy and all these other things.

Esther Perel 17:00 Possessiveness, vengeance.

Lewis Howes 17:01 Yes.

Esther Perel 17:01 You name 'em. The beauty-

Lewis Howes 17:03 Anger

Esther Perel 17:03 ... and the not beauty. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 17:04 Yeah, we saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights. We saw the love. We saw the, you know-

Esther Perel 17:08 We saw the coldness. We saw the-

Lewis Howes 17:09 The lack of intimacy, the intimacy

Esther Perel 17:11 ... the whole thing.

Lewis Howes 17:11 Yes.

Esther Perel 17:11 Yes. And we bring that with us, and we often promise ourselves, "I'll never be this one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this. I'll-"

Lewis Howes 17:20 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 17:20 You know, and we find ourselves often much closer-

Lewis Howes 17:24 Doing it, right? [laughs]

Esther Perel 17:24 ... to the apple. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 17:25 And then resenting ourselves.

Esther Perel 17:26 Apple to the tree.

Lewis Howes 17:27 We resent ourselves. We're like, "How did we do that?" We're, "Why did we get to this place?"

Esther Perel 17:30 Yes. And then we feel ashamed about it, and since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it, and one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner.

Lewis Howes 17:39 Hmm.

Esther Perel 17:39 That's just one of the ways. There's a load. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 17:43 Right. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay.

Lewis Howes 17:47 Um, and h- where does sex play into all this, and desire?

Esther Perel 17:50 So, I mean, the, one of the fascinating things for me in, in looking at sexuality is that it's probably o- one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time For most of history, and it's still the majority of the world-

Lewis Howes 18:08 Mm

Esther Perel 18:08 ... sex is for procreation, sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares-

Lewis Howes 18:14 Mm

Esther Perel 18:14 ... particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And, um, and men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere.

Lewis Howes 18:22 Wow.

Esther Perel 18:22 In a very short amount of time, we're talking 60 years, we have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time-

Lewis Howes 18:30 Mm

Esther Perel 18:30 ... to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death in pregnancy and in childbirth, sorry, all of that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.

Lewis Howes 18:45 In 60 years?

Esther Perel 18:46 In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage, and many times.

Lewis Howes 19:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 19:04 A lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time, now we marry and we stop having sex with others.

Lewis Howes 19:09 [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:10 Okay?

Lewis Howes 19:10 Right, right.

Esther Perel 19:10 Monogamy used to be one person for life, now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go-

Lewis Howes 19:16 Right

Esther Perel 19:16 ... around telling you, "I'm monogamous in all my relationships." And it makes perfect sense-

Lewis Howes 19:21 In a whole monogamous, yes [laughs]

Esther Perel 19:22 ... to them. Okay?

Lewis Howes 19:22 Sure, sure.

Esther Perel 19:23 All of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together, doesn't matter, commitment, because I'm attracted to you, because you give me butterflies in my stomach, and the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in one thing only, desire. I feel like it. I want to. Not I have to, not we want many kids. After two kids, the only reason to continue g- doing it with you is 'cause we feel like it.

Lewis Howes 19:58 Right, it's fun.

Esther Perel 19:58 And hopefully-

Lewis Howes 19:59 It's pleasurable, yeah

Esther Perel 20:00 ... it's pleasurable, we connect, it feels good, it rounds up the edges.

Lewis Howes 20:03 Deepens our relationships, yeah

Esther Perel 20:04 ... the whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 20:13 Right. Exactly.

Esther Perel 20:14 So this is an amazing revolution. Sex that is rooted-

Lewis Howes 20:17 And it's confusing all of us. [laughs]

Esther Perel 20:19 And how do we sustain it?

Lewis Howes 20:20 Yes.

Esther Perel 20:20 So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire-

Lewis Howes 20:25 Mm

Esther Perel 20:25 ... and how do we sustain desire, because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind-

Lewis Howes 20:32 Mm

Esther Perel 20:32 ... where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful, and we live twice as long.

Lewis Howes 20:41 Mm.

Esther Perel 20:42 Go figure.

Lewis Howes 20:42 Right, exactly. [laughs] For 60 years you're gonna be with them.

Esther Perel 20:45 Unbelievable.

Lewis Howes 20:45 Whatever it is, yeah.

Esther Perel 20:46 It's an amazing ideal.

Lewis Howes 20:48 So how do we navigate this? If we're gonna choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?

Esther Perel 21:01 I think the first-

Lewis Howes 21:01 Both men and women.

Esther Perel 21:02 Yes.

Lewis Howes 21:02 Because the, the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and, you know, vice versa, so it's like how do both parties do this?

Esther Perel 21:09 Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.

Lewis Howes 21:13 Wow.

Esther Perel 21:14 Okay?

Lewis Howes 21:14 Is this a fact or is this a-

Esther Perel 21:15 That's research.

Lewis Howes 21:16 Okay.

Esther Perel 21:17 That's not just fact. That's a, that is... Men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested at m- and maybe just 'cause he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire post-marriage plummets.

Lewis Howes 21:32 Really? Wow.

Esther Perel 21:33 And it's always been translated as, well, that's because women care less about sex, rather than it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them.

Lewis Howes 21:47 Mm.

Esther Perel 21:48 And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not in, is not seductive. The, the romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn-on for the woman, often disappears in the long-term relationship.

Lewis Howes 22:01 Mm.

Esther Perel 22:02 It's like you, people look at each other at the end of the day and then, "You wanna fool around? You wanna do it?"

Lewis Howes 22:07 [laughs]

Esther Perel 22:07 "You're up for it tonight?" Now, this is really not, this is not very much of a turn-on for most women.

Lewis Howes 22:13 No.

Esther Perel 22:13 And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing.

Lewis Howes 22:20 Right.

Esther Perel 22:20 Which for her is not the real thing. The whole real thing is everything else around it.

Lewis Howes 22:24 So it's essentially a game.

Esther Perel 22:25 Yes.

Lewis Howes 22:26 Of a rela-

Esther Perel 22:26 Yes

Lewis Howes 22:26 ... it's, it's creating a game.

Esther Perel 22:27 It's seduction.

Lewis Howes 22:28 Yes.

Esther Perel 22:28 It's a plot. It's a coming close. It's a tease.

Lewis Howes 22:30 Mystery.

Esther Perel 22:31 It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me, and then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit, too. Have, have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of-

Lewis Howes 22:45 Yeah

Esther Perel 22:45 ... pacing, and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and, and excitement. So women's-

Lewis Howes 22:53 Mm

Esther Perel 22:53 ... desire plummets, but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are, but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security in their life.

Lewis Howes 23:10 Safety, security, family.

Esther Perel 23:12 Right.

Lewis Howes 23:12 Someone to protect, be there, right?

Esther Perel 23:14 So what people do... Look, this is, we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security, and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay, that's the grand ideal, okay? I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge, and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar, and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it. As if it's a-

Lewis Howes 23:36 [laughs]

Esther Perel 23:37 Right? And no Victoria's Secret is gonna solve that.

Lewis Howes 23:40 Yeah.

Esther Perel 23:41 Right? So then it becomes h- what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this: "I turn myself off when... I turn myself off by..." Not, "You turn me off when, and what turns me off is." You're gonna hear I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad j- bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead-

Lewis Howes 24:15 Mm

Esther Perel 24:15 ... when I don't feel c- thriving, when I'm not alive. You will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, "I turn myself on when or by, I el- I awaken my desires", not you turn me on when, and what turns me on is, which is, i.e., you're responsible for my wanting.

Lewis Howes 24:34 Right, right.

Esther Perel 24:34 What people will talk to you about is, when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music. I- i- it's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital-

Lewis Howes 24:49 Mm

Esther Perel 24:49 ... that is erotic in the full sense of the word as a life force.

Lewis Howes 24:53 Right.

Esther Perel 24:54 And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul. Not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds, you know?

Lewis Howes 25:02 Right, right, right.

Esther Perel 25:03 It's I feel good about myself.

Lewis Howes 25:06 Hm.

Esther Perel 25:07 The biggest turn-on is confidence.

Lewis Howes 25:09 Right.

Esther Perel 25:09 Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're with d- when, when, when they're doing their sport, when they, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, i.e., they don't need me to take care of them.

Lewis Howes 25:33 Mm. They're not depressed and down-

Esther Perel 25:35 They're not needy

Lewis Howes 25:36 ... and lonely and sad.

Esther Perel 25:37 They're not needy. They don't need me because desire is about wanting you.

Lewis Howes 25:41 Mm.

Esther Perel 25:41 Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love, and it is a very powerful anti-aphrodisiac.

Lewis Howes 25:51 So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?

Esther Perel 25:54 You calibrate it.

Lewis Howes 25:56 Mm.

Esther Perel 25:56 It's-

Lewis Howes 25:56 So sometimes you're-

Esther Perel 25:57 It's the same as when you walk.

Lewis Howes 25:59 Mm.

Esther Perel 25:59 You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see. Right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful.

Lewis Howes 26:11 Right.

Esther Perel 26:11 We can break our own rules. We can stay home and not go to work at 8:00.

Lewis Howes 26:15 Right.

Esther Perel 26:17 And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home.

Lewis Howes 26:23 Mm.

Esther Perel 26:23 We are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible-

Lewis Howes 26:26 [laughs] Right

Esther Perel 26:26 ... good citizens.

Lewis Howes 26:28 Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 26:28 It's that. It's very-

Lewis Howes 26:29 Yeah

Esther Perel 26:29 ... small.

Lewis Howes 26:30 Yeah.

Esther Perel 26:30 You know? When-- I always think when I go and I see people at lunch, and you see them talking and they're well-dressed and they're awake and all, I think who is here with their partner?

Lewis Howes 26:42 Hm.

Esther Perel 26:42 Because you can see them. They're engaged. They're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues.

Lewis Howes 26:52 Right.

Esther Perel 26:52 Their partner is gonna get the leftover when they come home at night.

Lewis Howes 26:55 Right.

Esther Perel 26:55 Sorry. You know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch when you actually have energy.

Lewis Howes 27:00 Mm.

Esther Perel 27:00 You know? When you-- a- and, and in the middle of the day like that when you're awake, when you have something to offer. It's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it, and you say, "Why not? Why not?" Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just 'cause when you have a headache?

Lewis Howes 27:16 Mm.

Esther Perel 27:16 And just say, "This matters to me." All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just gonna happen.

Lewis Howes 27:24 Right.

Esther Perel 27:24 'Cause whatever is gonna just happen already has. So you're gonna make it happen because you say, "We matter. We're important. Let's do this. Let's sp-" Doesn't mean if you're gonna make love or have s- it just means-

Lewis Howes 27:36 Right

Esther Perel 27:36 ... we gotta take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment, but just you and I to be together, to check in, and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space-

Lewis Howes 27:46 Mm

Esther Perel 27:46 ... in which sex may happen, probably will. Doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love, right?

Lewis Howes 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 27:58 The citizen.

Lewis Howes 27:59 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 28:00 The commitment, the caretaking-

Lewis Howes 28:01 The safe thing, yeah

Esther Perel 28:01 ... the burdens, the safe. And then they say, "I'm bored." I would be, too.

Lewis Howes 28:07 Oh, [laughs] exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk-taking, right? Exactly, yeah.

Esther Perel 28:10 There's no risk-taking. That's the word.

Lewis Howes 28:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 28:13 If you want desire, it's risk, and the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a, a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you to-

Lewis Howes 28:23 Yeah

Esther Perel 28:23 ... differently from, um, differently from, from the way I typically present myself.

Lewis Howes 28:29 Mm. Sure.

Esther Perel 28:30 You know? How can I do this some-- ca- uh, what can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something-

Lewis Howes 28:40 Mm

Esther Perel 28:40 ... that I think would actually improve our relationship?

Lewis Howes 28:43 Mm.

Esther Perel 28:43 Me, right? Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us.

Lewis Howes 28:51 Mm.

Esther Perel 28:51 Right? And you check every time, you know. How often do you just go on the tried and trodden, as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works-

Lewis Howes 29:02 Mm

Esther Perel 29:03 ... for most people is really not interesting enough.

Lewis Howes 29:05 Right. So-

Esther Perel 29:06 What-- 'cause what does it mean it works generally?

Lewis Howes 29:08 Right. What, what

Lewis Howes 29:10 about the people listening who are saying, "Man, that sounds like a lot of work," that every day you have to change and do something different and unique and be-

Esther Perel 29:15 Not every day. Not every day. Not every day. But what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. You know, is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write?

Lewis Howes 29:31 Mm.

Esther Perel 29:31 Is there, you know-

Lewis Howes 29:32 Sure

Esther Perel 29:33 ... just a way that I can show up a ti-- it's small. It's really small. Um, here's the thing. There is work, and then there is the creative work.

Lewis Howes 29:43 Mm.

Esther Perel 29:44 You know? I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that-

Lewis Howes 29:49 Right

Esther Perel 29:49 ... actually gives you-- you feel a, you feel taller.

Lewis Howes 29:53 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 29:53 You just feel like you're engaged. You feel awake rather than this.

Lewis Howes 29:58 Right.

Esther Perel 29:59 This is the other seated position.

Lewis Howes 30:00 [laughs]

Esther Perel 30:00 It's comfortable. It's great, but nothing happens here.

Lewis Howes 30:03 Sure.

Esther Perel 30:04 This- This is alert. Here is the essential word is curiosity. When you're curious, you lean forward and you watch, you, you're open to the mysteries of life. This is, "Please don't bother me with anything"

Lewis Howes 30:20 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 30:20 ... because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share. I've been, you know. And this is the position that most people have at home.

Lewis Howes 30:26 Mm.

Esther Perel 30:27 So when people say it's too much work, um, I basically say, "Look, you, uh, uh, you, uh," if I was to say this in your business, would you say this is too much work?

Lewis Howes 30:40 Right.

Esther Perel 30:40 Or you would say, "That's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees," you know?

Lewis Howes 30:45 [laughs] Exactly.

Esther Perel 30:46 It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that.

Lewis Howes 30:54 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 30:55 Never. You have a reward system. You have incentives.

Lewis Howes 30:58 Bonuses. Yeah, okay, yeah.

Esther Perel 30:59 You have bonuses, but there is no incentivized system as in the, in the private domain. So people just think, "Why bother?"

Lewis Howes 31:06 Right.

Esther Perel 31:07 And that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentiviz- incentivized system.

Lewis Howes 31:14 Mm. What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or are effective for long-term relationships?

Esther Perel 31:21 I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you, please and thank you.

Lewis Howes 31:27 Mm.

Esther Perel 31:27 Do you know how many people stop thanking-

Lewis Howes 31:30 Mm

Esther Perel 31:30 ... their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts. Thank you for, you know, thank-

Lewis Howes 31:37 Making you feel appreciated.

Esther Perel 31:38 Yes.

Lewis Howes 31:38 Mm.

Esther Perel 31:38 Appreciation. Appreciation is huge.

Lewis Howes 31:41 Yeah.

Esther Perel 31:42 Uh, gratitude, acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life. Not, "Did you do this? Did you call? Did you pick up? Do this." You know, half the time-

Lewis Howes 31:54 Expectations

Esther Perel 31:55 ... expectations.

Lewis Howes 31:56 Yeah.

Esther Perel 31:56 Of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. Uh [laughs]

Lewis Howes 32:00 [laughs]

Esther Perel 32:00 It's like with the expectation comes the fear of it's not gon-... Thank person, first of all.

Lewis Howes 32:06 Mm.

Esther Perel 32:06 And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat. You're not owed anything. You're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable.

Lewis Howes 32:17 Right.

Esther Perel 32:17 And with the divorce rate that we have, um-

Lewis Howes 32:21 What's the rate at right now? Do you know?

Esther Perel 32:22 About 50 on first and 65 on second.

Lewis Howes 32:25 65 on second, wow.

Esther Perel 32:27 It's not good.

Lewis Howes 32:27 Right. [laughs]

Esther Perel 32:28 It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like-

Lewis Howes 32:34 Right

Esther Perel 32:34 ... you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's, it's just, it, it's like, okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or... The idea is that they-- we can do better. We can do better in general. I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's-

Lewis Howes 32:54 Absolutely

Esther Perel 32:54 ... gonna write, you know, uh, you wro- worked ex- 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week, and you know, no, they're gonna say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game. He was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma, not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma-

Lewis Howes 33:15 Mm

Esther Perel 33:15 ... because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special.

Lewis Howes 33:18 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 33:19 It's a different charisma.

Lewis Howes 33:20 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:20 So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Um, little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum.

Lewis Howes 33:29 Yeah.

Esther Perel 33:29 A lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded.

Lewis Howes 33:33 Right.

Esther Perel 33:33 Go an extra thing. Um, on occasion, just do something for the other person just because it matters to them, even if you couldn't care less.

Lewis Howes 33:41 Right.

Esther Perel 33:42 Rather than I d- I don't, it d- it's not important to me. I don't, I don't need this, or I don't care about this. Uh, give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared.

Lewis Howes 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 33:53 People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Um, admiration I think is huge, um, because-

Lewis Howes 34:05 Right

Esther Perel 34:05 ... admiration is also that you kind of really see the otherness of the other person. Um, don't try to make your partner into one person for everything.

Lewis Howes 34:14 Mm.

Esther Perel 34:15 There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a group of people support you, and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster.

Lewis Howes 34:29 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 34:30 It's just not fair.

Lewis Howes 34:30 We used, we used to have a village of people to do that as a p- and now we just expect one person to be the village, right?

Esther Perel 34:34 Yes. Yes, yes.

Lewis Howes 34:35 Yeah.

Esther Perel 34:35 One person for the whole village.

Lewis Howes 34:37 Right.

Esther Perel 34:37 That, that is, that is a unique, it is, and, and then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate, and that's the more impor- Like, "I can't talk to you. You're not supportive of me."

Lewis Howes 34:46 [laughs]

Esther Perel 34:46 "You're not excited for me. You're..." Excuse me. Find other people.

Lewis Howes 34:50 Right.

Esther Perel 34:51 You know?

Lewis Howes 34:51 I can't be everything for you. Yeah.

Esther Perel 34:52 No.

Lewis Howes 34:53 Exactly.

Esther Perel 34:53 No.

Lewis Howes 34:54 Can you, can we

Lewis Howes 34:55 talk about, you know, what marriage was about early, you know, when it, when it started? Do you know the history of marriage and how it's evolved and where it's at now, and kind of like the how we look at it in society?

Esther Perel 35:05 So I, as-- I won't go back millions of years-

Lewis Howes 35:08 Okay

Esther Perel 35:08 ... because the, it is a long history, and we were actually much more polygamous and much more polyamorous and all of that.

Lewis Howes 35:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 35:13 But the, the, t- the model from which we come is basically this: Marriage used to be an economic enterprise. It was a mercantile arrangement.

Lewis Howes 35:24 Mm.

Esther Perel 35:24 Men depended on women's fidelity for patrimony and lineage so that I can know who are my children and who gets the cows when I die.

Lewis Howes 35:32 When was this? What timeframe?

Esther Perel 35:33 This is pretty much till, it still is in most parts of the world, by the way, and I would say it's probably, um, we're gonna go about 50, 60 years back.

Lewis Howes 35:45 Okay.

Esther Perel 35:46 That's it.

Lewis Howes 35:46 Okay. Wow.

Esther Perel 35:47 That's it. People didn't choose who they married. P- you know, uh-

Lewis Howes 35:52 Wow. Yeah

Esther Perel 35:52 ... people didn't choose who they married. Arranged marriage is the norm still in many parts of the world.

Lewis Howes 35:58 Right.

Esther Perel 35:58 Certainly, you didn't marry because you fell in love. You married somebody who was a good person with whom to have a family with, and if love grew, that was wonderful, but it was not the beginning element of a relationship. Desire certainly was not what sex was about in marriage. So this is the traditional model. That doesn't mean that there was no good sex and intimate sex.

Lewis Howes 36:20 Right.

Esther Perel 36:20 That doesn't mean there was no passion, and that doesn't mean there was no love. But that was not what the institution of marriage was meant for. Marriage that becomes a romantic arrangement, I will begin that at the end of the 19th century. It's about 150 years old.

Lewis Howes 36:35 Okay.

Esther Perel 36:36 But it needs contraception. It needs a lot of... It needs feminism. It needs a lot of things to become what we want today, which is a relationship that is rooted in intimacy.

Lewis Howes 36:46 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 36:47 Intimacy, which until not too long ago, was basically we live together, we share the vicissitudes of everyday life, we raise the kids, we work the land. Intimacy now is into me see.

Lewis Howes 36:58 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 36:59 I share with you my inner life. That required individualism. Before individualism, we didn't have the concept self. That's beginning of the 20th century, ni- uh, late 19th, beginning 20th. So it's a... A lot of things go together, you know?

Lewis Howes 37:14 Yeah.

Esther Perel 37:14 The rise of individualism, the move away from religion as the center. The person becomes the center, hence my individual happiness becomes central. Now I move away from the community. I, I choose you, and as I choose you, now you become responsible to alleviate my existential aloneness. You know, that's why you become my village.

Lewis Howes 37:35 Right.

Esther Perel 37:35 Because I've left the village, um, and, uh, and now you're gonna make me feel that I matter 'cause I'm not dicta- I'm not judged by my actions. I'm judged by my personality. It's very different.

Lewis Howes 37:47 Hmm.

Esther Perel 37:48 I'm not... Do you understand? It's a, a whole new thing. It's like who I am, not what I do, as in, as in do I show up in church? Am I an upstanding citizen? You know, do, am, do, am I doing right by my parents? It's personality. It's a whole new thing.

Lewis Howes 38:03 Right.

Esther Perel 38:03 So trust,

Esther Perel 38:04 affection, intimacy, desire become f- the four pillars, you know, within modern relationships.

Lewis Howes 38:13 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 38:13 That is a whole new model. Affairs used to be, actually adultery for most of history was the space where we p- people went to look for true love.

Lewis Howes 38:21 Hmm.

Esther Perel 38:22 Because there was, that was, marriage was-

Lewis Howes 38:24 Arranged

Esther Perel 38:24 ... arranged and economic. Now that we brought love into marriage, adultery destroys it.

Lewis Howes 38:32 Hmm.

Esther Perel 38:34 So what did we do? We brought love into marriage. We brought sex to love. We connected happiness to relational, to emotional and sexual satisfaction.

Lewis Howes 38:45 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 38:46 And, um, and we also want a passionate marriage, which for most of history has been a contradiction in terms. Passion has always existed, but somewhere else.

Lewis Howes 38:56 Right. In the affair or in whatever.

Esther Perel 38:58 Yes, wherever.

Lewis Howes 38:59 Wow.

Esther Perel 39:00 Wherever.

Lewis Howes 39:02 How are we supposed to navigate all this? I mean, right?

Esther Perel 39:04 Actually, I think it's exciting.

Lewis Howes 39:05 Okay.

Esther Perel 39:06 I really do because nobody in effect wants to go backwards.

Lewis Howes 39:10 No, absolutely not.

Esther Perel 39:10 Nobody wants to go back where you are stuck. This is it. You have one chance for life.

Lewis Howes 39:16 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 39:17 And the only thing you have going is that you die younger.

Lewis Howes 39:20 Right. Exactly.

Esther Perel 39:21 Okay? You actually have the opportunity to do it again, to try a different story-

Lewis Howes 39:27 Hmm

Esther Perel 39:27 ... to be a different person, to be a better partner, and to, and to be a better parent for that matter.

Lewis Howes 39:34 Right.

Esther Perel 39:34 And I think that that is something that we've never had, is the opportunity to rewrite that story. We always had one job for life and one relationship for life. I think one of the n- you know, of course, we therefore didn't have to decide five times what do I wanna do.

Lewis Howes 39:50 Right. Exactly.

Esther Perel 39:52 But we have give- been given a unique opportunity. I can have more than one career or more than one job.

Lewis Howes 39:59 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 39:59 More than one identity in this world, and I can have a whole new family, and I can have a whole new love that I can start at 60, 40, 50, 60.

Lewis Howes 40:10 Hmm.

Esther Perel 40:10 And have another 20 years with somebody, and actually do it better this time. I think that is actually one of the greatest gifts we've been given.

Lewis Howes 40:19 Hmm.

Lewis Howes 40:20 How long have you been married?

Esther Perel 40:22 30-something.

Lewis Howes 40:23 30-something years, okay. Um, and how has your work-

Esther Perel 40:27 Two kids. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 40:27 Two kids. And how has your work and the constant conversation you're in about this work supported or not supported your relationship with your husband?

Esther Perel 40:39 You know, there was a comment that I once made m- a few years back, and it's become a, it, it, it's become a line in one of my TED Talks, so you know, where I said most of the people today are gonna have two or three relationships in their adulthood.

Lewis Howes 40:54 You mean marriages or just relationships?

Esther Perel 40:55 Committed relationships.

Lewis Howes 40:57 Yeah.

Esther Perel 40:57 Marriages, commit- I could say marriages, but let's say in Europe, so many of us don't marry, so I would say committed relationships.

Lewis Howes 41:02 Yeah.

Esther Perel 41:03 Most of us are gonna have two or three committed relationships in our lifetime due to divorce, due to death, various things.

Lewis Howes 41:10 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 41:11 Some of us are gonna do it with the same person. I have had probably three marriages to the same man.

Lewis Howes 41:19 Wow.

Esther Perel 41:19 Not because we divorced or anything, but because over 30 years we have had to redefine ourselves-

Lewis Howes 41:25 Sure

Esther Perel 41:25 ... to restructure. Everything that you do in companies, you know?

Lewis Howes 41:29 [laughs] Right.

Esther Perel 41:29 To change our brand. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 41:31 What works for five years is not gonna work for the next five years.

Esther Perel 41:33 That's right. What work when we are just two is not the same as what works when we are four.

Lewis Howes 41:38 Right.

Esther Perel 41:38 What works when we're in our 20s isn't the same as when we are in our 50s. What works when we have this type of career is not the same as now.

Lewis Howes 41:45 Hmm. Yeah.

Esther Perel 41:46 You know, um, and I think that the very principles that you apply to companies today, flexibility, fluidity, the ability to reinvent itself, to redefine itself, to manage tradition and innovation, is really what has to enter into all modern love.

Lewis Howes 42:06 Yeah.

Esther Perel 42:06 That's what coupledom is about. Those who can do it, do it with each other, and the other ones do it by finding a new person.

Lewis Howes 42:12 Hmm. So what's the ideal relationship moving forward in, in our, in our time?

Esther Perel 42:17 It's this.

Lewis Howes 42:17 Yeah.

Esther Perel 42:17 It's, uh, it's you sit every once in a while and you say, "How we doing?"

Lewis Howes 42:21 Hmm.

Esther Perel 42:22 "What are the strengths between us? What..." You know, it's, uh, I actually think people should have, uh, n- do different commitment ceremonies in the course of a marriage.

Lewis Howes 42:31 Really?

Esther Perel 42:32 Yes.

Lewis Howes 42:32 Hmm.

Esther Perel 42:32 I think that every few years or every year they should have a little summit or they should have a little, whatever they wanna call it. They could have a ceremony or re- a kind of a where are we at, a checking in. How are we doing? What has been good in our life? What could we do better? What could we do differently? Are we doing right by our children? Are we giving... You know, are we meeting some of our important needs at this point? What has changed for us? We've just been sick. We've just-

Lewis Howes 42:56 Hmm

Esther Perel 42:56 ... lost a parent. We've just lost a child. What's changing in our life? And to actually address

Esther Perel 43:02 this head-on. What the problem is in modern c- in couples is that most of the big topics are addressed when there is a crisis, rather than when actually things are good.

Lewis Howes 43:12 When you're calm. [laughs]

Esther Perel 43:13 When you're calm.

Lewis Howes 43:13 And you speak clearly.

Esther Perel 43:13 Of course, you have less incentive to change when things are good, but you h- have less creativity to change when things are bad.

Lewis Howes 43:22 Right.

Esther Perel 43:22 Same for companies, same for couples.

Lewis Howes 43:25 Wow.

Esther Perel 43:26 So I think retreats for couples are unique-

Lewis Howes 43:30 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 43:30 ... actually, because couples are often isolated units. They talk to nobody. Sometimes women will talk to women, men will talk to no one, and when a group of couple come together in a group, it is powerful. It is so normalizing-

Lewis Howes 43:46 Hmm

Esther Perel 43:46 ... to know what's happening at the neighbors that you never know and that you can always imagine is different from yours. It's so powerful to hear your partner, like you can never hear them because somebody else just said the same thing, but just with a different word or just with a little bit more distance so that you're not instantly reactive and defensive.

Lewis Howes 44:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 44:05 I think that that conversation between couples, the same way that you bring entrepreneurs together to a mastermind to talk about their companies-

Lewis Howes 44:14 To hear something in a different way, that it finally lands with you-

Esther Perel 44:16 Yes

Lewis Howes 44:17 ... and you can take action towards it.

Esther Perel 44:18 Yes. I think that if we could actually bring the entrepreneurs and their partners, it would be an incredible thing. I do a lot of it with YPO, with EO, with all these organ-

Lewis Howes 44:28 Right

Esther Perel 44:29 ... I see it each time. And not to separate the partners from the others. No, actually have the people-

Lewis Howes 44:35 Hmm

Esther Perel 44:35 ... in the room, you know, have a fishbowl where the entrepreneurs talk about what their lives is. And then have a fishbowl on the other side where the, the next inner circle is where the partners talk about what it's like to live with the entrepreneur.

Lewis Howes 44:49 Hmm.

Esther Perel 44:49 And have each of them listen to the other. It's been one of the richest conversations I've had in that space.

Lewis Howes 44:56 Wow.

Lewis Howes 44:57 Okay. Um, and what's your thoughts on divorce? You know, as you said, over 50% are divorced the first time and over 65% the second time. Do you believe that, um, or do you think it's, you know, that people should experience divorce or they should go through that? Or do they think, do you think they're being lazy, or do you think that they're just not committed to it enough, or that they haven't tried all the different things to become better themselves and to see the good in their partner?

Esther Perel 45:23 I would start differently. I would say-

Lewis Howes 45:25 Or is that a d- is that a bad question? [laughs]

Esther Perel 45:28 No, no, no, no, not at all. But I, I would say differently. I would think that the first thing that has to happen with divorce, um, is to take away the concept of failure. As long as we still think that-

Lewis Howes 45:41 Hmm

Esther Perel 45:41 ... it is marriage for life, till death do us apart, when de facto for the majority of couples today, it's till love dies, not till death do us part.

Lewis Howes 45:53 That's when we divorce.

Esther Perel 45:54 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:54 We break up is when love dies.

Esther Perel 45:56 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 45:56 Yeah.

Esther Perel 45:57 Yes. And then we think it's a failure. I think that a relationship that has lasted for 15, 20, 25 years sometimes, that's not a failure.

Lewis Howes 46:06 It's a huge success.

Esther Perel 46:07 It's a long time.

Lewis Howes 46:08 Yeah.

Esther Perel 46:08 It's a good success. And they may have done certain things poorly and other things very well. I think a lot of people who divorce don't have the chance to actually appreciate how many good things they had in their relationship, and to, and to do what I like to call, you know, a la Gwyneth Paltrow, the conscious uncoupling.

Lewis Howes 46:28 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 46:28 Meaning-

Lewis Howes 46:29 Oh, yeah. Of Catherine Woodward Thomas. Do you know her? Yeah.

Esther Perel 46:31 Yeah.

Lewis Howes 46:31 Yeah.

Esther Perel 46:32 Goodbye.

Lewis Howes 46:33 Yeah.

Esther Perel 46:33 This is what I really am thankful for that we had together. This is what I take with me from what we had together.

Lewis Howes 46:40 Hmm.

Esther Perel 46:41 This is what f- I wish for you as we move forward. This is how I hope our children will remember us. That is a very different departure, and when you do that departure, you also have a very different continuity in your next relationships later-

Lewis Howes 46:56 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 46:57 ... than carrying bitterness and victimization and resentment and all of that. So I think that many people, something ends, you know? But they moved in together. They helped each other through school. They helped each other in the beginning of their careers. They helped each other when their parents were sick. They helped each other when their parent died. They helped each other with raising children. This is a lot of what marriage is about.

Lewis Howes 47:22 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 47:22 They've had good marriages for, for all sake and purposes, and maybe other things have come in, and they were not necessarily always that nice to each other, and maybe they hurt each other, and maybe they abandoned each other, maybe they betrayed each other. Lots of other things come in, too, but this stuff all disappears because of the negative that then sits on it, making it look like their marriage didn't work out. It failed. Why? It failed because it ended, the only time it's successful is when they meet in the funeral home?

Lewis Howes 47:48 Hmm. Interesting. So you think we should redefine or, or look at it differently?

Esther Perel 47:53 Yes. I think that marriage has to be disentangled-

Lewis Howes 47:57 Hmm

Esther Perel 47:57 ... from the concept of-

Lewis Howes 47:59 Of death do us part or-

Esther Perel 47:59 Yes.

Lewis Howes 48:00 Interesting.

Esther Perel 48:00 I think that divorce as the proof that a marriage failed is the wrong conclusion.

Lewis Howes 48:06 Right.

Esther Perel 48:06 It's not right, and it takes away from people decades of enormous endeavors-

Lewis Howes 48:13 Hmm

Esther Perel 48:13 ... and constructive stuff. It's not because a company closed that a company failed.

Lewis Howes 48:19 Right.

Esther Perel 48:19 Right?

Lewis Howes 48:20 Companies close all the time.

Esther Perel 48:21 Yeah. Okay.

Lewis Howes 48:22 Interesting. So are, are you saying that, you know, since our-- we're evolving and growing and having different needs and desires and things like that, that we should expect, you know, to start a family and then get divorced? And how is that going to affect our, our children's lives going forward? Uh, should we be expecting more of that and be okay with just, well, now I've got a new partner and a new stepmom or stepdad, and this is how-- We have multiple families now. How is that gonna be moving forward?

Esther Perel 48:50 Listen, when there was no divorce, basically the ones who took the brunt of it were the women.

Lewis Howes 48:57 Mm.

Esther Perel 48:58 It's-- It-- The, it-- The, the, the supposed stability of the family basically rested because the woman stayed put, made sure that the children had the kind of-

Lewis Howes 49:08 Were taken care of

Esther Perel 49:08 ...were taken care of.

Lewis Howes 49:09 And the man went out and did what he wanted.

Esther Perel 49:10 Many times.

Lewis Howes 49:11 Yeah.

Esther Perel 49:11 Many times. If they had the possibility, they, they certainly would. So I think that we definitely have a model today that is more focused on the adults. When you divorce, it's for the, for the well-being of the adult.

Lewis Howes 49:25 Mm.

Esther Perel 49:25 It's not for-- Unless there's real egregious, you know, issues in the family, it's not for the benefit of the children.

Lewis Howes 49:31 Right.

Esther Perel 49:31 It's for the benefit of the adult. A divorce is not the end of the family, it's the reorganization of the family.

Lewis Howes 49:37 Mm.

Esther Perel 49:38 It's the end of the couple, but it's not the end of the family. And if the couple can disentangle with more integrity and more respect and more real thoughts about the children, not manipulation about for the good of the children-

Lewis Howes 49:52 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 49:52 ...then the family can actually reorganize better. And this is where it's gonna go. So we can bemoan it, but the fact is we better think about a better way of doing it so that the children-- The children of today are-- Look, the, the millennials of today, 50% of them are either the children of the divorced or the disillusioned.

Lewis Howes 50:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Esther Perel 50:13 Okay?

Lewis Howes 50:13 Their parents are divorced, yeah.

Esther Perel 50:14 And half of them, half of you men grew up with single mothers.

Lewis Howes 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 50:20 So you've come out with a very different kind of emotional intelligence.

Lewis Howes 50:23 Right.

Esther Perel 50:24 Because you actually were speaking to those mothers at the table the whole time, and they engaged you in conversations in ways that often did not take place if the father would have been at the table.

Lewis Howes 50:34 Right.

Esther Perel 50:35 So you come-- I, I think it's a very, very beautiful new generation of men actually that emerges out of this, that has-- That, that we don't think of it. They were at the table with mom, and when mom said, "How was your day?" She was not content with just, "It was good," or, "It was all right."

Lewis Howes 50:50 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 50:51 She said, "What--" She had another question and another question. And f-

Lewis Howes 50:55 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 50:55 ...and you've developed a, a, a kind of an emotional literacy-

Lewis Howes 50:59 Yeah

Esther Perel 50:59 ...that most boomers don't have a clue about, men.

Lewis Howes 51:03 Sure.

Esther Perel 51:04 That the millennial man really has available.

Lewis Howes 51:06 Hmm. Interesting.

Esther Perel 51:08 You under-- I don't think you've ever thought of that, right?

Lewis Howes 51:10 Yeah. No, it's great. That's great. Yeah, yeah.

Esther Perel 51:11 But you, you, you see it. I mean, watch yourself at the table at breakfast. Uh, you know, there was a whole-- That conversation did not happen-

Lewis Howes 51:19 Yeah

Esther Perel 51:19 ...when dad was at the table. Not that there was no conversation. It was a different conversation.

Lewis Howes 51:24 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 51:25 So I think families are reorganizing, and have-

Lewis Howes 51:30 And that's okay.

Esther Perel 51:32 Yes.

Lewis Howes 51:32 Yeah.

Esther Perel 51:32 Yes. We have-

Lewis Howes 51:33 It's not failure. It's just not bad.

Esther Perel 51:34 No.

Lewis Howes 51:34 It's not wrong.

Esther Perel 51:35 We have blended families.

Lewis Howes 51:37 Yeah.

Esther Perel 51:37 We have single parent families. We have gay families. We have accordion families. We have long distance families. We have-- The g- fastest growing

Esther Perel 51:46 model of couples in America today is the LAT, living apart together.

Lewis Howes 51:50 Mm.

Esther Perel 51:52 That is the fastest growing, and it's a boomer model. It's the people after 55.

Lewis Howes 51:57 Wow.

Esther Perel 51:58 Okay?

Lewis Howes 51:58 Okay.

Esther Perel 51:58 Who are in relationships but don't live with their partner.

Lewis Howes 52:01 Interesting. Why?

Esther Perel 52:03 Because they often have their own families, because they have their own living arrangement, because one of them is still working, one of them is already preparing and downsizing. Lots of different reasons-

Lewis Howes 52:12 Hmm

Esther Perel 52:13 ...for why they prefer to have the benefits of the connection and of the relationship-

Lewis Howes 52:17 And their own space and-

Esther Perel 52:18 ...and their own space.

Lewis Howes 52:19 Interesting.

Esther Perel 52:19 Or because they wanna stay closer to their children or grandchildren, while the other person has their grandchildren elsewhere. It's millions. Millions.

Lewis Howes 52:28 Hmm.

Esther Perel 52:28 Of course, the question of the LAT is what will happen when they get older. Do you have the same commitment to a person who is aging and getting sick when you have not lived with them, and you have maintained so much of your own life? Because I meet you in my 50s, I have a whole life, and I'm not willing to let go of that life.

Lewis Howes 52:47 Yeah. Right.

Esther Perel 52:47 I'm willing to ma-- to be with you and, and con-

Lewis Howes 52:50 And create a relationship. Yeah

Esther Perel 52:51 ...and create, and connect things, but I don't wanna let go of my-- I have a whole world of my own, you know?

Lewis Howes 52:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Esther Perel 52:56 So that's the LAT model.

Lewis Howes 52:58 Sure.

Esther Perel 52:58 And we don't know what the LAT model will do for public health.

Lewis Howes 53:01 Hmm. Yeah.

Esther Perel 53:02 We know that men, you know, live better in older age when there is somebody next to them.

Lewis Howes 53:07 Of course.

Esther Perel 53:07 They don't take good care of themselves.

Lewis Howes 53:08 Yeah, of course.

Lewis Howes 53:10 Should we expect, um, you know, moving forward in relationships with our time, uh, that monogamy is something that we're gonna be able to do? Or with the there's always something better option, and that it's more available now than ever, especially with social media, online dating, there's, like, distractions constantly, uh-

Esther Perel 53:32 Yeah, you don't have to leave your house anymore.

Lewis Howes 53:34 Exactly, yeah.

Esther Perel 53:34 You can pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed.

Lewis Howes 53:37 Exactly.

Esther Perel 53:38 But we are by definition already doing serial non-monogamy. You know, most of us don't come to marriage monogamous. We've come to marriage after years of nomadism, sexual nomadism.

Lewis Howes 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 53:49 So monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined throughout. You asked me before about how has marriage changed, but monogamy had nothing to do with love for most of history. Monogamy became about love with romanticism.

Lewis Howes 54:03 Hmm.

Esther Perel 54:04 It's the sacred ideal of the romantic ideal because the sacred cow, because monogamy means I'm everything. I'm it. I'm the one. I'm chosen.

Lewis Howes 54:12 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 54:12 I'm unique. I'm iris. And if you are interested in someone else, it means I'm not enough.

Lewis Howes 54:18 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 54:19 Versus monogamy, which was basically for patrimony and for children.

Lewis Howes 54:24 Hmm.

Esther Perel 54:25 You know? So-

Lewis Howes 54:26 So how should we navigate this moving forward?

Esther Perel 54:28 I think that-

Lewis Howes 54:29 This concept of monogamy

Esther Perel 54:29 ... look, if I had talked to you 70 years ago about premarital sex and virginity was a precondition, you would have looked at me like this is a taboo, this is a impossible. Today, premarital sex in the West, it's like nobody blinks an eye.

Lewis Howes 54:44 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 54:45 Okay? It would have been inconceivable, okay? If I had talked a- to you about going to from families of eight, 10 children to families of one child, you would have looked at me inconceivable.

Lewis Howes 54:55 [laughs]

Esther Perel 54:55 If I had told you that we were going to be conceiving so many children through assisted reproduction, inconceivable. So today, when you say open relationships or non-monogamous relationships or periodically non-monogamous or monogamish a la Dan Savage-

Lewis Howes 55:10 [laughs]

Esther Perel 55:11 ... or, you know, or polyamorous, it al- people will say, "Can't work. Impossible," you know. The fact is monogamy is the new frontier. But you can have it as negotiated through divorce or through -

Lewis Howes 55:25 Hmm

Esther Perel 55:25 ... what most people have always done, which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery, or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non-monogamy. This is it.

Lewis Howes 55:37 Hmm.

Esther Perel 55:38 This is the options.

Lewis Howes 55:39 Right. And what do you think s- gonna be working the most for people?

Esther Perel 55:41 There's gonna be a little bit of everything.

Lewis Howes 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 55:43 There are some people who really need stable, committed, monogamous relationships. They don't want open doors.

Lewis Howes 55:52 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 55:53 And there are other people for which open doors probably should be the model from the start. That's kind of who they are. That's their curiosity. That's the way they live their life, and it's not because they're less committed or less loving. It's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way, and it lives together with a certain arrangement. And all of that is going to be redefined-

Lewis Howes 56:15 Hmm

Esther Perel 56:15 ... as we go along. Um, it's de facto what's going to happen.

Lewis Howes 56:20 Yeah.

Esther Perel 56:20 It will be the next frontier. But if you see it on the level of marriage, people say, you know, if you say, "Okay, let's look on the," you know-- You have to look at it from the place of before marriage.

Lewis Howes 56:32 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 56:33 You know, a Swedish philosopher said, "Today, monogamy only exists in reality. It doesn't exist in your memories, and it doesn't exist in your fantasies."

Lewis Howes 56:45 Hmm.

Esther Perel 56:47 So this is not because I advocate it. It's just, uh, there's a-- First of all, there's nothing to advocate. It's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners-

Lewis Howes 56:58 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 56:58 ... before marriage. We are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense of the word. The world has been in flux, and we don't really know where it's going.

Lewis Howes 57:08 Hmm.

Esther Perel 57:08 We don't. What we know is that people still seek to connect. People want to love. People want somebody who loves them, and how that will play itself out is the mysteries of life. But the fundamental human need for love, for connection, for passion, for transcendence will never change. The expressions, the forms, the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform. That's really-

Lewis Howes 57:42 Hmm

Esther Perel 57:42 ... how I see the, the evolution taking place.

Lewis Howes 57:45 Sure. Sure.

Esther Perel 57:47 What do you think of what I'm saying?

Lewis Howes 57:48 Oh, man. It's just so con- you know. It's confusing 'cause you hear so many different options that work, that don't work. You see people that love each other that go through breakup and divorce. You see-- And then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional toll that it takes on some people. Then you see people who are in, you know, committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty 'cause they want to be able to explore, but they, they can't 'cause they've made this choice-

Esther Perel 58:13 Mm-hmm

Lewis Howes 58:13 ... and they've committed to it.

Esther Perel 58:14 Monogamy is a practice.

Lewis Howes 58:16 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 58:17 We are not by nature biologically, evolutionary monogamous.

Lewis Howes 58:22 Right.

Esther Perel 58:22 It's a practice. It's a choice. And it's a choice-

Lewis Howes 58:26 It's not our makeup.

Esther Perel 58:27 No.

Lewis Howes 58:27 Yeah.

Esther Perel 58:27 And it's a choice then of-- And it-- And monogamy is a continuum. Are you mono-- You know, you have mind, you have fantasy, you have memory, you have a lot of things. At what point do we become non-monogamous?

Lewis Howes 58:40 Hmm.

Esther Perel 58:41 Where does non-monogamy start? And all of these concepts are fluid concepts today. There is just no way to define it like that.

Lewis Howes 58:51 Right.

Esther Perel 58:51 So we make our choices, and we make compromises, and we sometimes don't just do what we want, and we often need to think about the consequences of our actions.

Lewis Howes 59:03 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 59:04 And we need to think about the larger picture and something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it-

Lewis Howes 59:12 Right

Esther Perel 59:12 ... for the next weeks and the next years.

Lewis Howes 59:14 Ri- yeah, exactly.

Esther Perel 59:15 And I think that in the era of self-fulfillment and the right to happiness, we don't have more desires today than the previous generations. We just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires, and we feel that we have a right to be happy, my personal happiness. The switch, the greatest switch is from a, a, a social organization in which I think about the well-being of others. Collectivist thinking thinks about the well-being of others, and I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well-being of others, to the other side of the continuum is I have a right to pursue my individual needs-

Lewis Howes 59:56 Hmm

Esther Perel 59:56 ... and the others will have to adapt to it. And I think that we are a little bit on the extreme end of the other side at this point.

Lewis Howes 1:00:04 Hmm.

Esther Perel 1:00:04 We really take ourselves a little very seriously-

Lewis Howes 1:00:06 Hmm

Esther Perel 1:00:06 ... and sometimes at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and, and, and a commitment to, not just our partners.

Lewis Howes 1:00:15 Right.

Esther Perel 1:00:15 Of-

Lewis Howes 1:00:16 The world.

Esther Perel 1:00:16 The world. The world.

Lewis Howes 1:00:17 So where should we be? Somewhere in the middle, you think? Or what's-

Esther Perel 1:00:20 In an examined state. I don't know that it's always in the middle-

Lewis Howes 1:00:22 Right

Esther Perel 1:00:22 ... but in an examined state, in a state that doesn't just say what I like, what I feel. The fact that I have options-

Lewis Howes 1:00:29 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:00:30 ... doesn't mean I have to exercise all these options. The problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore to make choices. Same with the cereals in the supermarket.

Lewis Howes 1:00:39 Right.

Esther Perel 1:00:39 Why would it be better with love? So I could get better. I could get better. I'm like, you know, I'm a victim of FOMO.

Lewis Howes 1:00:47 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:00:47 You know? I'm a, how do I know this is the best? No, you don't.

Lewis Howes 1:00:51 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:00:51 When do I find the best? No,

Esther Perel 1:00:53 you don't. You don't find your partner, you choose your partner. It's very different. You know? If you think you're gonna find somebody who is the person who's gonna make you stop looking, it doesn't work this way because-

Lewis Howes 1:01:04 Right

Esther Perel 1:01:04 ... no, it doesn't because at some point, your inner rumblings will start up again, and then you will say, "Oh, probably it's not-"

Lewis Howes 1:01:09 You start looking. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:01:10 [laughs] Yes. You know? It's like you just say, "This is it. This is where I decide to put my, my roots in this moment."

Lewis Howes 1:01:17 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:01:17 You know? And I'm gonna, and I'm gonna try to deepen them. I think we are all living with paradoxes of choice.

Lewis Howes 1:01:24 Yes.

Esther Perel 1:01:24 You know, from, uh, from which phone I get to-- But we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test the partner and beta test the relationship and check out to see is it good enough or can I find better el- You, yes, you can-- The fact is you could find other. I'm not sure it would be better, but you definitely can find other.

Lewis Howes 1:01:44 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:01:45 And there are lots of people you can love, and there's only a few you can make a life with, and they're not always the same. There are a lot of people you can have love stories with.

Lewis Howes 1:01:54 [laughs] Right.

Esther Perel 1:01:55 And have beauty-- But they're not the person you would make a life with.

Lewis Howes 1:01:58 How do you know when it's the person you can make a life with?

Esther Perel 1:02:01 I think values enter into there a lot more. I mean-

Lewis Howes 1:02:04 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:02:04 ... you can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with.

Lewis Howes 1:02:08 Right.

Esther Perel 1:02:09 They're just too different from you. They have not the same values as you. They have not-- They, you, they, they, they-- One wants a child, one does not. One wants t-uh, to travel, the other does not. One wants career, the other d-

Lewis Howes 1:02:24 Hmm

Esther Perel 1:02:24 ... very major different classes, different, different weltanschauung, as they used to say in German. You know, vi-visions of the world.

Lewis Howes 1:02:32 Hmm. Yes.

Esther Perel 1:02:33 But you can love them.

Lewis Howes 1:02:34 Yes.

Esther Perel 1:02:35 You can have a beautiful love story with that person and be transported in your experience with them, but you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build-

Lewis Howes 1:02:45 Hmm

Esther Perel 1:02:45 ... a home, a future, a l- a trajectory, maybe a family if you want that. Um, that that's not the person we do-- And for that, you need more of shared vision-

Lewis Howes 1:02:57 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:02:57 ... shared mission, shared values, stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings, but also in the domain of beliefs.

Lewis Howes 1:03:06 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:03:07 Um, it's different.

Lewis Howes 1:03:09 Wow.

Esther Perel 1:03:09 Views about money, views about independence and separateness versus connection, views about, um, e-emotional expressiveness, views about power.

Lewis Howes 1:03:20 Mm-hmm. Wouldn't you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people? That we have some of those differences, maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs, but it's also different, unique, interesting, and so it also brings us together or do you think it's not enough?

Esther Perel 1:03:36 I think that what attracts you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later.

Lewis Howes 1:03:41 Hmm.

Esther Perel 1:03:42 The very thing that is so attractive because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different.

Lewis Howes 1:03:49 Interesting.

Esther Perel 1:03:50 So of course it's a mix and match, you know?

Lewis Howes 1:03:53 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:03:53 But what makes thriving relationships is not only feelings. It's a mix of feelings, actions, beliefs, touches-

Lewis Howes 1:04:09 Right. Right

Esther Perel 1:04:09 ... physicality. It's a, it's a, a, a, a more all-encompassing thing.

Lewis Howes 1:04:13 Sure.

Esther Perel 1:04:13 A beautiful love story can be just about feelings.

Lewis Howes 1:04:16 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:04:17 So and you can l-love more people than those that you can make a life with. That doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love, but it means that there is a whole other set of ingredients-

Lewis Howes 1:04:28 Right

Esther Perel 1:04:28 ... that enter into the making of a life, which is the creation of a world. It's a little different.

Lewis Howes 1:04:35 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:04:36 And in that world, you often can be on the side of, you know-- There's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in couples therapy. "This is a raw deal."

Lewis Howes 1:04:50 Right.

Esther Perel 1:04:50 "I'm not getting my needs met. Where is my return on investment?"

Lewis Howes 1:04:54 Wow.

Esther Perel 1:04:54 Excuse me. Excuse me, somebody owes you?

Lewis Howes 1:04:58 Hmm.

Esther Perel 1:04:58 It's like, wow, it's, it's I am in a relationship for what it's gonna give me. Um, that is an important piece, now don't misunderstand me. But I'm also in a relationship for why, for what I'm going to give to this person.

Lewis Howes 1:05:16 Right.

Esther Perel 1:05:16 For what I'm going to give, if I want children, to these children, not just for what they're gonna bring to me. It's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunken a tiny bit on occasion. [laughs]

Lewis Howes 1:05:27 Right. Exactly. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:05:29 [laughs] It's just like, you know-- I mean, I'm part of that same, you know, landscape, but on occasion-

Lewis Howes 1:05:34 Sure

Esther Perel 1:05:34 ... I think it's like, uh, you calibrate it. On occasion, some, some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves.

Lewis Howes 1:05:44 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:05:44 And some of us really need to think more about others.

Lewis Howes 1:05:48 Right.

Esther Perel 1:05:48 Some of us live with the fear that we're gonna be abandoned, and some of us live more with the fear that we're gonna lose ourselves. Some of us-

Lewis Howes 1:05:57 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:05:58 ... are better takers and need to learn to give, and some of us are consummate givers, and we need to learn to take. And often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link, and that can be beautiful complementarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole-

Lewis Howes 1:06:18 Right

Esther Perel 1:06:19 ... and to learn from them. And it's, it's-- And we need both. You need to be able to think about yourself-

Lewis Howes 1:06:26 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:06:26 ... and to know what you want and all of that, but you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you.

Lewis Howes 1:06:33 Right.

Esther Perel 1:06:34 Your family, your friends, you, you know, your be- your loved ones.

Lewis Howes 1:06:37 Sure.

Esther Perel 1:06:37 And that- That's what will make the difference the day you die and who will show up at your funeral-

Lewis Howes 1:06:45 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:06:45 ... basically.

Lewis Howes 1:06:46 I love this conversation. I have f- four questions for you left.

Esther Perel 1:06:50 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:06:50 Uh, I feel like I could ask a lot more, and I want everyone to make sure they pick up the book, Mating in Captivity. We'll have it linked up here at the end. Um, the first one is, what are you most grateful for recently in your life?

Esther Perel 1:07:04 Recently in my life, uh, I had a, kind of a medical scare-

Lewis Howes 1:07:10 Mm

Esther Perel 1:07:10 ... so I'm actually very grateful that it turned out to be nothing.

Lewis Howes 1:07:13 A, a small boo-boo, not a big one?

Esther Perel 1:07:14 It was a big boo-boo.

Lewis Howes 1:07:15 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:07:15 I thought it was a big boo-boo, but it ended up being a small one.

Lewis Howes 1:07:18 That's great.

Esther Perel 1:07:18 So that's, uh-

Lewis Howes 1:07:19 Congrats. [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:07:19 Um, that's actually probably the first one that comes to me. Um, I have, um... You know, I spent most of my career mo- in the professional academic world, and in the last two, three years, um, I've really crossed over to the mainstream.

Lewis Howes 1:07:35 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:07:36 Um, and that has entered me into TED and Aspen and the entrepreneur space and summit and, uh, Sudad. I mean, it's worldwide. And, um, and I think that it's been a wonderful, um, l- taking what I've done in the four walls of my office to a larger platform and being actually a psychologist, not just in the therapeutic space, but in the larger cultural space-

Lewis Howes 1:08:02 In the world, yeah

Esther Perel 1:08:02 ... in the world. That's been a great thing. Going digital. Um, the idea that I can actually, um, help people and, and give people an elevated conversation about relationships and that embraces the complexity and that meets them where they're at through my online courses and through this whole new platform, that's been a trip. It's been a fantastic, creative, uh, journey for me.

Lewis Howes 1:08:28 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:08:28 It's been just one year.

Lewis Howes 1:08:30 Right.

Esther Perel 1:08:30 So I'm very grateful for that 'cause it's been fun, creative, new, very different for a therapist, actually-

Lewis Howes 1:08:37 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:08:37 ... um, to move into kind of thought leader, if you want, and being part of-

Lewis Howes 1:08:41 Right, right

Esther Perel 1:08:41 ... a great, a more global conversation.

Lewis Howes 1:08:44 Sure.

Esther Perel 1:08:44 Great. Um, and I, y- that's ... I'm actually m- uh, in many ways, I'm much happier today because, because I've become more, um... If I miss something, I no longer think, "Oh, shit, I will never get another..."

Lewis Howes 1:09:03 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:09:03 It's like I used to want, you know... I'm like, "Okay, it's all right. I don't have to have gone to three things," [laughs] you know, like that.

Lewis Howes 1:09:10 Right, right, exactly.

Esther Perel 1:09:11 Full. To go back to the beginning of our conversation, I feel that the day is full even if I haven't binged.

Lewis Howes 1:09:20 Mm. [laughs] Okay. [laughs] That's good.

Esther Perel 1:09:21 [laughs] I used to need to binge for the-

Lewis Howes 1:09:24 Sure

Esther Perel 1:09:24 ... day to be full. I no longer feel like that.

Lewis Howes 1:09:26 I like that. Uh, good things to be grateful for. Uh, second question is, if someone's looking to get into find a partner, a long-term partner, a committed relationship for, or a marriage, what's one piece of advice you would say to go enter into that relationship to find that relationship? If you could give one piece of advice.

Esther Perel 1:09:48 Yes. Ask yourself, "What do I wanna give to someone?" Don't just ask yourself, "Who do I wanna meet and what, what characteristics do I want in that person?" and make a list of all the things that the other person needs to have.

Lewis Howes 1:10:02 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:10:03 Think in the reverse. What do you want to bring to somebody? What do you want to bring into, you know, what's the love that you wanna put out into the world? The love, the caring, the w- the benevolence, you know, over, for another person.

Lewis Howes 1:10:15 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:10:15 Um, I think that that's probably much better than the checklist that most people-

Lewis Howes 1:10:19 Sure

Esther Perel 1:10:20 ... go, go dating with.

Lewis Howes 1:10:20 "Here's what I want." Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:10:21 Yes.

Lewis Howes 1:10:21 "Here's what I can bring."

Esther Perel 1:10:22 "Here's what you need to be for me-"

Lewis Howes 1:10:23 Mm

Esther Perel 1:10:23 ... for me to then be interested in you," you know?

Lewis Howes 1:10:26 Right.

Esther Perel 1:10:27 Be compelling to someone else rather than ask, wait for them to dazzle you-

Lewis Howes 1:10:31 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:10:31 ... so that you can swipe in one direction or another.

Lewis Howes 1:10:33 [laughs] Right. Okay.

Esther Perel 1:10:34 You know? Um, and, um, that would probably would be the first thing I would say. And, and that's it.

Lewis Howes 1:10:44 Okay.

Esther Perel 1:10:44 That will be the most-

Lewis Howes 1:10:45 I like it

Esther Perel 1:10:45 ... important one. And don't think just like, "Is this the best?" You're not buying a product.

Lewis Howes 1:10:50 Mm.

Esther Perel 1:10:51 No, it's not the best. Just decide in advance, "But neither are you." You choose the one that you say, "This is it." Because often, you know, you pick somebody because you're ready. But there were plenty of others you met before that could have been fantastic partners for you.

Lewis Howes 1:11:08 Right.

Esther Perel 1:11:08 It's just you were not there in your life.

Lewis Howes 1:11:09 Right.

Esther Perel 1:11:10 You were not ready for that, that, uh, commitment, that decision. So you were ready to have beautiful experiences, relationships, lovers, you know, and you love these people, but you were in your 20s. What did you know about life, you know?

Lewis Howes 1:11:22 Right.

Esther Perel 1:11:22 About wanting to build something. Now you're 33, and you say, "Okay, now I wanna do it." So it's the timing. It's your maturity that makes you make the choice, not the p- only the person that you are-

Lewis Howes 1:11:33 Mm

Esther Perel 1:11:33 ... being dazzled by.

Lewis Howes 1:11:34 Right. Right.

Esther Perel 1:11:34 So that would be when you go dating.

Lewis Howes 1:11:37 I like that. Um, quest-

Esther Perel 1:11:39 Three

Lewis Howes 1:11:39 ... question number three, if, um, it's your last day here on Earth, and your book is gone. It's been deleted from history. Everything you've ever created has been gone. For some reason, it just got deleted. And you're on bed, and you're, everyone you love is there, and they give you a piece of paper, and they say, "Will you write down the three things that you know to be true about your experience in this world, the three truths about what you learned? And, and this is the last thing that we'll, this is the only thing we'll ever know or have left about you." What do you think you'd write down about the three truths?

Esther Perel 1:12:13 So I, you know, I am a connector, and an enormous amount of people in my life know each other through me.

Lewis Howes 1:12:22 Yeah.

Esther Perel 1:12:23 Worldwide. It's always been something I love to do, maybe 'cause I had no family, and I was one child of two p- p- you know, sole survivors. I, I, I think that recreating a tribe-

Lewis Howes 1:12:35 Mm

Esther Perel 1:12:36 ... uh, was something that came very natural to me. And I would write, uh- I have touched a lot of people who have-- Oh, and I will continue to live on in their memories because so many of them are now interconnected.

Lewis Howes 1:12:53 Interesting. Okay.

Esther Perel 1:12:55 Uh, I have created a lot of beautiful events that were fun, celebratory, abundant, where a lot of people came together. And I, uh, I have had a great relationship with the man that I've lived with, at least for now, for the 30 years, 35 years of my life.

Lewis Howes 1:13:17 Nice.

Esther Perel 1:13:17 And I've raised two boys who, if I was a woman interested in men, I would have wanted to date them.

Lewis Howes 1:13:23 There you go. I love it, I love it. Uh, before I ask the final question, Esther, I just want to say that I acknowledge you for, for being here and the continuous commitment to the work you do to supporting so many people in the world about navigating relationships and understanding how to have full, rich, meaningful experiences in relationships. I think the work you're doing is so powerful, especially today, more now than ever, and I just want to acknowledge you for the gift that you bring to so many people. So thank you.

Esther Perel 1:13:51 Thank you.

Lewis Howes 1:13:52 Final questions, what I ask everyone at the end is, what's your definition of greatness?

Esther Perel 1:13:59 Oh, um, I went to a company recently, and they asked me that question actually [laughs] . Um, I think irreverence is a big part of it. There's gonna be a few words. Integrity-

Lewis Howes 1:14:19 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:14:19 ... but that's often a-- Irreverence, not to take the accepted as the given. I don't think that that's because that's what we do or that's how we think that that definition means that it's right or it's true. So I am a person who questions. I topple sacred cows. I open up possibilities. I'm rather non-judgmental. Um, and I like to shed a whole new light on something that, that people think they've already heard a lot about and to rethink or kind of, uh, challenge the conversation.

Lewis Howes 1:14:55 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:14:56 Um, it's-- That-- Those words go into creativity. Uh, but greatness is that.

Lewis Howes 1:15:04 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:15:04 Greatness is, is when you, when you poked at something, uh, and it-- When you started out, it existed like that, and when you end it, it became something completely different.

Lewis Howes 1:15:17 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:15:18 Um, and I think Mating actually, you know, Mating or the courses in general, I, I am counterintuitive. I have, you know, I think people come in, I, I'll just give it to you like that. People have a story. Every person who comes to therapy or every company who comes to me to consult, they have a story. They describe themselves a certain way. Greatness is when they can come in with one story and leave with a completely different one.

Lewis Howes 1:15:43 I love that. It's a perfect ending. Esther Perel, thank you so much for being here. Where can we find you online? Where can we connect with you? What's the best place to go?

Esther Perel 1:15:50 All right. So it's www.estherperel.com. You opt in with me. I connect with you. I communicate with you. We're in conversation. I never harass, but I inspire.

Lewis Howes 1:16:01 [laughs]

Esther Perel 1:16:02 I'm on Facebook. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. Um, and I'm about actually to release the third online course called Rekindling Desire.

Lewis Howes 1:16:11 Mm-hmm.

Esther Perel 1:16:12 Um, that is really, once you've read me, what can you do? How do you bring this home? How do you bring this to your relationships, committed ones or not, and to yourself? And that's really where this, these online courses now are is like, um, it, it's me on-- It's not the podcast yet-

Lewis Howes 1:16:29 Mm-hmm. So true

Esther Perel 1:16:30 ... which we will talk about, but it is me speaking to you-

Lewis Howes 1:16:34 Sure

Esther Perel 1:16:34 ... about how you take all of these ideas and make them personal-

Lewis Howes 1:16:38 Mm-hmm

Esther Perel 1:16:38 ... and transform them into actions that will change your life.

Lewis Howes 1:16:42 I love it. Esther Perel, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it.

Esther Perel 1:16:44 It's a pleasure. [upbeat music]

Lewis Howes 1:16:48 Hey, guys. Thanks so much for watching this video. I really appreciate it. And if you enjoyed this video, then make sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel. You can do that by clicking right here to subscribe, 'cause each week we come out with awesome, epic, and inspiring interviews and messages and videos just for you. So click subscribe right here to get notified of new videos every week. Also, if you enjoyed this specific interview, we've got a lot of great interviews like this that are uplifting and inspiring. So click right here to watch the previous interviews because the people I've had on are pretty cool and epic as well. So click here to watch previous interviews. Click here to subscribe. I love you guys, and I'll see you very soon.