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RACHEL HOLLIS: HOW TO BUILD CONFIDENCE, BELIEVE IN YOURSELF AND BECOME YOUR BEST SELF

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Rachel HollisguestLewis Howeshost

Sep 24, 20181h 16mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

85 min read · 17,025 words

0:00 – 0:43
Dreams that don’t “make sense” and modeling adulthood for your kids
1. RHRachel Hollis
  You're allowed to have a dream, you're allowed to chase something even if it doesn't make sense to anybody else. In fact, maybe especially if it doesn't make sense to anybody else. Uh, you are in real time showing these babies what it is to be a grownup.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
3. RHRachel Hollis
  What it is to be a woman, what it is to be, like, a being with your own hopes and dreams and desires. And not only that, but these kids are gonna grow up.
4. LHLewis Howes
  And then what?
5. RHRachel Hollis
  And then what? [upbeat music]
0:43 – 2:24
From years of quiet effort to a breakout book and fast-growing audience
1. LHLewis Howes
  Welcome back, everyone, to The School of Greatness Podcast. We've got Rachel Hollis in the house, who's got an incredible book, Girl, Wash Your Face. How's it going?
2. RHRachel Hollis
  [laughs]
3. LHLewis Howes
  It's good to see you.
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Man, I'm tripping out.
5. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
6. RHRachel Hollis
  I'm totally tripping out. I can't believe I'm sitting here with you right now.
7. LHLewis Howes
  It's fun, right?
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, it feels like a really big deal. The Pacific Design Center's right there, we're in this room with this wall, like-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Love the wall
10. RHRachel Hollis
  ... this is, yeah, it's tripping me out.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Well, everything's probably been tripping you out all year because-
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
13. LHLewis Howes
  ... you've worked for m- a- over a decade on your brand and your career and your life.
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Marriage, everything. You've written six books that really didn't do much.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, [laughs] totally.
17. LHLewis Howes
  And then you came out with a book called Girl, Wash Your Face, which just sold a million copies, which is a huge accomplishment, and it sold it in eight months or something.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Eight months, a book.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
21. LHLewis Howes
  And what, what were the books that you sold before, how many copies would you sell?
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Oh, gosh, I think my first cookbook probably sold 15,000. You know, like-
23. LHLewis Howes
  That's a lot
24. RHRachel Hollis
  ... yeah, but that was the-
25. LHLewis Howes
  That's a lot of books
26. RHRachel Hollis
  ... that was the book before this.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
28. RHRachel Hollis
  But there's-
29. LHLewis Howes
  Oh, that was the book before this.
30. RHRachel Hollis
  That was the book before this.
2:24 – 6:16
The bikini photo that went viral—and why authenticity changed everything
1. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, I mean, well, so incidentally, what really started this ball rolling was a few years ago, I don't know if you know this about my story, but, um, I had a picture go viral. Do you know this story?
2. LHLewis Howes
  What photo was it?
3. RHRachel Hollis
  Uh, me in a bikini.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Oh.
5. RHRachel Hollis
  No, you don't know this. Okay, so I, um, Dave and I were in, Dave, Dave, my husband, uh, we were in Mexico. I had just run the LA Marathon. So it was like, number one, this is the best shape I'm ever gonna be in in my whole life. Um, we got a few days away from our kids, we go to Mexico. Truthfully, I'd had tequila. Um, I had had a shot of tequila, and I had just gotten this new bathing suit, and the top, um, had a monogram. My family's southern. Southern women love a monogram.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
7. RHRachel Hollis
  At the time I had about 5,000 fans on social media [laughs] and I thought, "Oh, I have a bunch of other moms, like, I'm gonna show off this bikini top." And I'd never taken a picture in a bathing suit before and so I'm like, you do that thing, like Instagram husband, like, "Honey, take 100 pictures."
8. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
9. RHRachel Hollis
  "We'll find one."
10. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
11. RHRachel Hollis
  And so he takes pictures, and the very last picture is I'm laughing 'cause I feel sup- like, the most awkward, and, um, I see the picture and in the picture I have stretch marks all over my stomach 'cause I carried three babies. And so I start to zoom in, you know that thing you do on an iPhone, where you like zoom in-
12. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
13. RHRachel Hollis
  ... I'm gonna cut it, and then I'm like, "You know what? All the women who follow me are moms, they probably have stretch marks too." So I end up posting the photo and I wrote something about the fact that I wear a bikini. Like, I wear a bikini, I have stretch marks, and I'm proud of this body and every mark on it because there are so many women I know who would kill to be able to carry children, and they don't have that blessing. And so I'm gonna rock a bikini 'cause this is what my body looks like. So I post the picture, and this was back, uh, my Instagram's connected to my Facebook, and I post it, it goes on both. And I remember we're sitting by a pool, and at the time I, like, went over to see, you know, you like make sure it posted okay, and it had 100 likes in like a minute.
14. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
15. RHRachel Hollis
  And I had never, I mean, that's nothing, but-
16. LHLewis Howes
  It was huge then
17. RHRachel Hollis
  ... back in the day, that was massive for me.
18. LHLewis Howes
  And you had like five, 10 likes.
19. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So I'm like, "Wow, that's crazy." Um, and then-
20. LHLewis Howes
  Maybe the algorithm changed [laughs]
21. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, yeah. [laughs] And then like five minutes later it had 1,000.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Holy cow.
23. RHRachel Hollis
  And then it just... And we sat by a pool. I've never experienced anything like it in my life. We sat by a pool in Mexico and we would just watch this photo go viral. Um, and it was, you know, hundreds of thousands, and immed- like, immediately people started, they would go to their bathroom and they'd take a picture of their stretch marks and they're posting their stretch mark photos, and it went everywhere. Every, when I say that every press outlet-
24. LHLewis Howes
  News site picked it up
25. RHRachel Hollis
  ... in the world picked it up.
26. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
27. RHRachel Hollis
  Everywhere. And I gotta tell ya, of all the things that you want to go viral, that's probably not it. Like, that was very overwhelming. [laughs]
28. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
29. RHRachel Hollis
  Uh, but it really was the first time that I saw the power of just, like, being yourself and how much women resonated with me being myself and showing all of it, not just the pretty stuff, and that was, that was really what started to shift and change my career from, like, food blogger to stepping into this space.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Hm.
6:16 – 11:05
Finding the message: Ethiopia, a pivotal question, and the birth of the title
1. LHLewis Howes
  And then you just started to- The idea for this book came right after that, or-
2. RHRachel Hollis
  No, so, um, I was still writing fiction, and then, you know, I started as a food blogger, so I had some cookbooks in there.
3. LHLewis Howes
  So you were an event planner, a party event planner, you wrote fiction books-
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes
5. LHLewis Howes
  ... and you were a food blogger.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, all the things. Well, I am a massive book nerd. Like, I read it... I read crazy amounts of books, and I think most book nerds who also have to do any sort of writing for a living, so I was writing this blog, start to daydream about what it w- what it would be to write their own thing. So I had started to dream about books, and I read fiction, so I wanted to write it.
7. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
8. RHRachel Hollis
  And that's where I got started in the space, and I was actually, uh, I was on a trip to Ethiopia with... Do you know Jen Hatmaker? She's a big, um-
9. LHLewis Howes
  I just started following her.
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, she's great.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
12. RHRachel Hollis
  You'd love her. Um, but I was on a trip with her to Ethiopia, and we're sitting on a bus, and she is massively, massively successful in the nonfiction space for women. And she was like, "Hey, sis, what's your next book?" And I was like, "Oh, okay, get ready. So there's people, and they're superheroes," and I, like-
13. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
14. RHRachel Hollis
  ... started describing my next fiction book. And she's like, "No, no. What's the book? What would you tell women if you could tell women anything?" And I had never thought about it, ever. I'd never considered writing nonfiction. Uh, she said, "What would you say if you could say anything?" And I knew the answer because I had had years as an influencer with women all over the world sending me DMs, I'm sure like you get DMs, and emails, and all of these things asking, "How do I save my marriage? How do I get my son to stop using? How do I lose the last 50 pounds? How do I, how do I, how do I... " And what I wanna say, which never felt appropriate to say, is, "Stop reaching out to a stranger on the internet and fix your own life."
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  I had never encountered anyone, like, loving women, but also challenging them. Most, most writers and speakers, female writers and speakers in this space tend to be more of a cheerleader, and I'm not a cheerleader.
17. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  I'm a coach. Like, a cheerleader roots for you no matter what. A coach challenges you to see something in yourself that maybe you don't see. And so she's like, "What would you say if you could say anything?" And I was like, "You know, uh, the... " And I start, and I literally, I start doing this with her, I'm like, "Girl, like, get off the floor. Like, girl, stop crying. Girl, get a hold of your life. Girl... " And she says, "Girl, wash your face." And I wrote the first chapter on the plane ride home from Ethiopia.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, so she-
21. LHLewis Howes
  So she gave you the title.
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, and she, it's dedicated to her-
23. LHLewis Howes
  I saw that, yeah
24. RHRachel Hollis
  ... because, yeah, 'cause she's the jam.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
26. RHRachel Hollis
  So I also love that story 'cause I think it's such an incredible example.
27. LHLewis Howes
  It was pivotal for you-
28. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes
29. LHLewis Howes
  ... because you had an idea of doing something completely different.
30. RHRachel Hollis
  Totally.
11:05 – 19:33
Slow start, word of mouth, and the emotional roller coaster of the New York Times list
1. LHLewis Howes
  But what most people don't, probably don't know is that you really didn't make much money for the first five, six, seven years-
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... of your business, right?
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Oh, yeah.
5. LHLewis Howes
  You were just working extremely hard, coming up with content.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
7. LHLewis Howes
  You wrote multiple books.
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
9. LHLewis Howes
  They weren't making a lot of money, it sounds like.
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Getting by.
12. RHRachel Hollis
  No money, no attention, like this is the first-
13. LHLewis Howes
  No followers.
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah. No, this is... I mean, I had, I slowly... I always had a community, but it was small, and I wasn't obsessed with the idea of how do we... Like, I get this question all the time, like, "How do I grow my social following?" I'm like, "Serve the audience you have. Add value to the audience you currently have."
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  I, I have the community I have because they keep talking about me to other people. Um, sorry, that's a side note.
17. LHLewis Howes
  No, it's good.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  But, um, I, yeah, I, for years and years, every single penny that I made, I invested it back into the company.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  'Cause I knew that I wanted to scale, and I knew I wanted to build something bigger, and we had revenue, but not enough for me to take a salary, and I was really blessed in that we could live off of my husband's salary-
21. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
22. RHRachel Hollis
  ... for a long time, which we did. Uh, this is the first time in years, years and years, that I have put money... Like, I put a check in my bank account for the first time two months ago.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
24. RHRachel Hollis
  And I cried like a baby.
25. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
26. RHRachel Hollis
  'Cause it wasn't, um- It, I, like, I'm so blessed that we were able to live off of Dave's salary, but there was something, like, psychological for me about being able to contribute. Like, I put money in our bank account. I, I don't know, it was a big deal.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Sure.
28. RHRachel Hollis
  So.
29. LHLewis Howes
  That's amazing.
30. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, so I just kept reinvesting, and, um, it really has felt like, I don't know, like a snowball rolling down a hill. Like, all of a sudden it just took speed and, and went crazy after, like, pushing it for years and years.
19:33 – 24:44
Moms and ambition: reclaiming identity beyond caregiving
1. LHLewis Howes
  And the thing that you did, you kept going with a family. You had, what-
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... two kids, three kids by then.
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
5. LHLewis Howes
  A couple years ago. You have your fourth kid now.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
7. LHLewis Howes
  And what do you say to moms who have one kid or two kids or-
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
9. LHLewis Howes
  ... multiple kids about what's possible for their dreams?
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Well, I think-
11. LHLewis Howes
  If they feel overwhelmed, overworked-
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
13. LHLewis Howes
  ... their face is really dirty.
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, they need to wash that face.
15. LHLewis Howes
  They feel like they can't, they can't wash it-
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, yeah
17. LHLewis Howes
  ... 'cause every day there's another poop stain-
18. RHRachel Hollis
  Totally
19. LHLewis Howes
  ... on their face-
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Totally
21. LHLewis Howes
  ... from their kid that they gotta wipe-
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
23. LHLewis Howes
  ... the diaper.
24. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
25. LHLewis Howes
  Throwing up on them.
26. RHRachel Hollis
  You have, like, a really twisted image of what parenting is. [laughs]
27. LHLewis Howes
  Right. Yeah, no. Poop and throw up all over you.
28. RHRachel Hollis
  You're covered with poop all over your face.
29. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
30. RHRachel Hollis
  No, no. Um, I think the first thing that I would love for women to understand, especially moms, is that, um, you're allowed to have a dream for yourself that doesn't involve these babies, and not only that, I think, um, I think that's the point. I think that's the calling. I think that's why you're here. Um, I think that it's possible to be both an incredible mom and an incredible wife if that's your thing, and to pursue your version of more. Um, I think that if you're, um, there are plenty of women for whom being a stay-at-home mom is the goal, and that's incredible.
24:44 – 30:56
People-pleasing, playing small, and anxiety as a symptom
1. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you think that's the biggest challenge for women is that they are, let's say moms, that they, that you see is that they're not stepping into who they're supposed to be?
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Absolutely.
3. LHLewis Howes
  Or they don't believe they have the capacity to or they're not allowed to, is that the challenge?
4. RHRachel Hollis
  I think it's a lot. There's, you know, there's a lot of, um, like everything comes back to other people's opinions.
5. LHLewis Howes
  People pleasing.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Like yes, they are drowning. Women, myself included, um, drowning. I used to drown inside of what other people thought I should have for my life. Um, I-
7. LHLewis Howes
  It starts with parents, right?
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, yeah. Like m-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
10. RHRachel Hollis
  ... I didn't come from, um, a, a society and my... I didn't marry into a family where it was super normal for a woman to be an entrepreneur, for a woman to be a writer, for a woman to be a speaker. That we, both Dave and I, came from really traditional backgrounds where like Dad worked, Mom stayed at home and raised the kids. And so it was, um, I had navigated that for years of I really wanted to, um, to build a company. I really, I was, I was really... It still excites me, like trying to figure out, okay, how do we scale this? How do we grow here? Um, and it was fine, people thought it was fine when we needed the money. When we needed the money when we were newlyweds and we needed the money, everyone was supportive of like this cute little thing that Rachel did.
11. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
12. RHRachel Hollis
  And then when he started to make enough that we didn't need that and we had kids, everyone immediately like, "When are you quitting?"
13. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
14. RHRachel Hollis
  "When are you gonna stop?" And I was like, "I just worked so hard to build this business." Um, so I didn't wanna stop, but I also didn't wanna bother anybody. I didn't wanna put anyone out. I didn't want anyone to be mad at me, and so I spent years and years, um, building this thing, I, I don't wanna say like in secret, but I would never talk about it.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm. Yeah.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  If I went to an event with Dave, um, he worked in the industry, and if I went to an event and someone asked me what I did, I'd be like, "Oh, I'm a blogger."
17. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  And like I had a staff, full-time staff of five. We were doing really good revenue working with some of the biggest brands on the planet, and I would be like, "Oh, I just, I'm just a blogger."
19. LHLewis Howes
  A little hobby on the side, yeah.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Like I would... Yeah, little, my little, my little side hobby, my little thing. Um, we'd go to-
21. LHLewis Howes
  You were playing small.
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Absolutely. We'd go to family parties, I wouldn't talk about my business at all because I knew that it would make people uncomfortable. Like I just-
23. LHLewis Howes
  Wow
24. RHRachel Hollis
  ... and simultaneously, and I can call this out in women when I see it all the time now, is that when women do this, the number one symptom that happens when you do this is anxiety. Like when women tell me that they're suffering with anxiety, I'm like, "Who are you trying to please?"
25. LHLewis Howes
  Ooh, snap.
26. RHRachel Hollis
  Because it, it like it always-
27. LHLewis Howes
  Snap
28. RHRachel Hollis
  ... I, if I keep digging, it always comes back to that. It's like you're living, it's almost like you're living a double life. Like your heart is telling you you're one person, and your brain is telling you, "But you've gotta fit into this box over here." And so for years I did this, and for years I suffered from anxiety attacks, and it took a ton of therapy and a ton of work to get to the other side of it to be able to have the courage to be like, "No, this is who I am."
29. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
30. RHRachel Hollis
  And not, not this is who I am like, you know, middle fingers up like a Beyonce song like, "Get outta here, you can't..." No, like I am going to be so full of love with myself that I don't need to beg you for it with the way I live my life.
30:56 – 38:28
Breaking the pattern: therapy, daily intention, and Unleash the Power Within
1. RHRachel Hollis
  Uh, so I-
2. LHLewis Howes
  Or started to
3. RHRachel Hollis
  ... yeah, so when I was having really bad anxiety attacks, I-
4. LHLewis Howes
  How old were you?
5. RHRachel Hollis
  This was probably five years ago.
6. LHLewis Howes
  30 years old.
7. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, 30 years old, having, having really bad anxiety attacks, like have a company to run, have people who are counting on me, and I could function. I had... I was, I had a double whammy, so I was having anxiety and I was having horrible vertigo. Like, room would spin.
8. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
9. RHRachel Hollis
  Didn't feel comfortable driving. Of course, now I can look back and be like, "Hello, you had problems." But at the time, it was like, "I'll just work harder."
10. LHLewis Howes
  Oh my gosh.
11. RHRachel Hollis
  I'll just drink more caffeine. I'll just... You know, like, I was a nightmare, right? I was a horrible workaholic, like horrible workaholic, um, hustling for my worth. Just kept thinking, "I'll just keep going, growing, growing, and then we'll see what happens." Um, so I was having really bad anxiety and I wanted... I, I got to a place where I was gonna have to be on medication.
12. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
13. RHRachel Hollis
  And-
14. LHLewis Howes
  How was your, uh, health and-
15. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, like I, like meaning, like I'm gonna have to take something to calm myself down.
16. LHLewis Howes
  Wow.
17. RHRachel Hollis
  And I h-
18. LHLewis Howes
  You were in good shape physically, or were-
19. RHRachel Hollis
  Physically great, running marathons-
20. LHLewis Howes
  Okay
21. RHRachel Hollis
  ... doing, you know, eating well, but-
22. LHLewis Howes
  So you're a workaholic on all levels.
23. RHRachel Hollis
  Mm-hmm.
24. LHLewis Howes
  You're like, "I'm gonna work."
25. RHRachel Hollis
  On all levels.
26. LHLewis Howes
  I'm gonna train-
27. RHRachel Hollis
  Yep. Yep
28. LHLewis Howes
  ... I'm gonna this, I'm gonna that.
29. RHRachel Hollis
  Yep, and frankly, I'm in your... I'm gonna say this and you're gonna understand it. I could have gone on that way forever, but when it started to affect my performance, then I was like, "I gotta get help."
30. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
38:28 – 40:32
Not pleasing for the first time: personal growth, marriage tension, and a spouse joining in later
1. RHRachel Hollis
  And I came home from that trip just on fire. Like, on fire.
2. LHLewis Howes
  Well, you walked on fire too, so.
3. RHRachel Hollis
  Uh, yeah, the whole thing, like, I'm so passionate and alive and feel more like myself, and I came home to a husband that was not interested. Like, he thought it was all, you know, it's all a cult. You're crazy. He was actively not interested in where I was, and now I came home and I'm on fire, and I'm getting up at 5:00 AM, and he's grouchy and grumpy and not having any of it. And it was the first time in our relationship that he didn't like something, and I kept doing it.
4. LHLewis Howes
  Ooh.
5. RHRachel Hollis
  I just-
6. LHLewis Howes
  So you didn't please him. You didn't stop-
7. RHRachel Hollis
  I didn't please him for the first time ever in my life-
8. LHLewis Howes
  To please him
9. RHRachel Hollis
  ... I was like, this is not about how you feel about me changing, this is about how I feel about me changing.
10. LHLewis Howes
  Damn.
11. RHRachel Hollis
  And I just kept going. And the in- the interesting thing is, about three months later, I'm still on fire, I'm still doing all the things, he was like, "Okay, I wanna go."
12. LHLewis Howes
  Really?
13. RHRachel Hollis
  Like, "I wanna know what this is all about. I wanna see." And, yeah.
14. LHLewis Howes
  You got past, like, needing to please him-
15. RHRachel Hollis
  Yep
16. LHLewis Howes
  ... and you kept going-
17. RHRachel Hollis
  Yep
18. LHLewis Howes
  ... and you hurt his feelings probably a lot-
19. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah. Yes
20. LHLewis Howes
  ... and upset him.
21. RHRachel Hollis
  Made him very uncomfortable 'cause I think any time I, I... This is another question I get is women are like, "I wanna change, or I wanna build my business, and my partner is, hates it." It's like, well, yeah, because you're changing, and now they're afraid that you're going to not love them anymore, right? Because you're growing and you're changing. What if you don't need them?
22. LHLewis Howes
  Fear of judgment.
23. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah. What if you don't, you know, we're all, like, little precious snowflakes at our core. So, um, yeah, I just kept going, and he, like, I kept living into myself and believing big things and doing all the work, and he was like, "Okay, I, I want in." And we went to UPW. I got him Christmas-
24. LHLewis Howes
  You went together
25. RHRachel Hollis
  ... I got it for Chris- we went together, and it changed our marriage. Like, if you are looking at, you know, our social today and the things that we're doing-
26. LHLewis Howes
  When was this, two years ago?
27. RHRachel Hollis
  Couple years ago, yeah, when all the stuff was going down, which we've talked about the struggles that we've had there, but, um, we went together after I had that hard conversation with him. Um, it was-
28. LHLewis Howes
  And what was the conversation you said with him?
40:32 – 45:25
The hard conversation that prevented a breakup—and the work that followed
1. RHRachel Hollis
  Um, so we've, we said this on our podcast. You can, like, go find the episode, but, um, w- I knew it was bad for a really long time. He was really unhappy with his job, and, um, he was-
2. LHLewis Howes
  And here's a guy who's a president at Disneyland-
3. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, massive job
4. LHLewis Howes
  ... and he's making seven figures as a salary.
5. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, like the dream. The dream. He has the dream job, and he's just super unhappy. Um, and so he dealt with that by coming home every day, put headphones in, he'd start playing video games, drinking too much. You know, not showing up for the kids, not, not really being present with me, and simultaneously then being angry at me as I'm trying to, like, pursue a better version of myself. Um, so for months I knew I needed to have a conversation with him, but I was like, oh, just it ma- like, it made me sick to my stomach.
6. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
7. RHRachel Hollis
  Like, this is bad, right? And, um, I, I, I like, I'm like, this is getting, this is getting bad, where I think started to see, like, man, if this keeps going the way it's going, you're here and I'm growing, like, we're not gonna be together. Um, but how do you say that? Because I, the, the thing was-
8. LHLewis Howes
  You've been married for how long?
9. RHRachel Hollis
  We've t- right now been married for 14 years, together for 16, so at this point we're, been together 14 years when-
10. LHLewis Howes
  Wow
11. RHRachel Hollis
  ... this is happening, and I'm thinking, um, mostly I didn't want to hurt his, hurt his feelings. That was the, I knew it was gonna crush him. I knew it was gonna hurt his heart so bad. He's also the most, like, our conflict resolution styles, I shut down, he will battle you to the death.
12. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
13. RHRachel Hollis
  Like, he will battle to the death. So I'm like, oh gosh, like, if I try and talk to this guy about this huge thing, he's gonna, he's gonna debate me until I'm like, "You know what? You're right." You know, which is what we had done for years.
14. LHLewis Howes
  And you just pleased him. You're like, "Okay."
15. RHRachel Hollis
  "Okay, you're right."
16. LHLewis Howes
  "I give in."
17. RHRachel Hollis
  "I'm sorry." Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for the, I'm like, I gotta do this. So I-
18. LHLewis Howes
  Dang
19. RHRachel Hollis
  ... for the first time for months, I- Thought about and planned it and prayed and thought, like for months I planned this conversation in my head. Like, how do I have this conversation with him in a way he can receive it?
20. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
21. RHRachel Hollis
  That's what I kept-
22. LHLewis Howes
  That's the key
23. RHRachel Hollis
  ... wondering. Like, I don't wanna talk at him, I want him to be able to receive it. And so we had gone on a family vacation that was really bad, really bad. He might have told you guys about it.
24. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs] Yeah.
25. RHRachel Hollis
  Um, two weeks, he's completely-
26. LHLewis Howes
  I remember this
27. RHRachel Hollis
  ... yeah, shut down.
28. LHLewis Howes
  It was supposed to be relaxed and it was like miserable.
29. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, shut down, not involved with the family at all. Just like not... He drank a lot. Like just bad. But we've all been in situations like that, that was his time. And after that vacation I'm like, "I gotta, we gotta have this conversation." So we come home literally that day, put the kids to bed, and I go in the bedroom and I'm like, "I need to talk to you, and I need you, I need so badly for you to please try and hear it. Please don't be defensive." And it was about two-hour conversation, and it was he would kept getting fired up and then would have to like talk himself back down. But the, the gist was I said, "If, um, if I keep growing and you stay the same, two years from now we're not gonna be together because we're gonna..." Like, it's just impossible. Uh, the, the Bible says, uh, your ox and ca- like in a marriage you can't be unevenly yoked. Like meaning like if one ox is bigger than the other, like the yoke, does that... I don't even know if that's resonating [laughs] with you.
30. LHLewis Howes
  Sure.
45:25 – 48:31
Working together: stepping down as CEO, ego, and division of strengths
1. LHLewis Howes
  And he also left, what, four months ago, his dream job.
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Master job, yeah.
3. LHLewis Howes
  That he wasn't happy at-
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
5. LHLewis Howes
  ... to come essentially work for his wife.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So-
7. LHLewis Howes
  To not be like-
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
9. LHLewis Howes
  ... the man at this-
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
11. LHLewis Howes
  ... big company-
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
13. LHLewis Howes
  ... and have this identity anymore-
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
15. LHLewis Howes
  ... but to be like, "Oh-
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
17. LHLewis Howes
  ... I work under my wife essentially-"
18. RHRachel Hollis
  Well, n- well, so-
19. LHLewis Howes
  "... right?"
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Well, what's interesting is that in order for us to make this decision, I had to step down as CEO, which was very hard for my ego.
21. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Very hard.
23. LHLewis Howes
  So he's the CEO.
24. RHRachel Hollis
  He's the CEO. Um-
25. LHLewis Howes
  Otherwise, he wouldn't have done it.
26. RHRachel Hollis
  He wouldn't have done it, and that was a conversation that we had.
27. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
28. RHRachel Hollis
  He was like, "Babe, if another company", and this was over many conversations. He was like, "If another company tapped me right now to come and I would be tapped to be the CEO."
29. LHLewis Howes
  I'd be the CEO of some other startup that was-
30. RHRachel Hollis
  So yeah, and, and it's good that he did because I would have continued to try and run it. I mean-
48:31 – 55:06
Ego, recognition, and gendered dynamics in visibility and opportunity
1. RHRachel Hollis
  Um, I think what is, I'll be, I'll be super transparent. There is a part [laughs] there's a part of me that I, I said something earlier which might have like clued you into this, is it, it feels like I've had to work so hard to get to where I am, and he has just, he would tell you the same thing. He's, he is super charming and he's super smart, and he's had a very easy road. Like from childhood to where he is today, he's had a very easy road.
2. LHLewis Howes
  He didn't work hard to get this job at a-
3. RHRachel Hollis
  He's, he's worked very hard, but not the same way. But not, and he'd tell you that. Like-
4. LHLewis Howes
  Uh-huh
5. RHRachel Hollis
  ... uh, you know, if you don't have resources, if you don't have money, if you don't have an education, if you don't and you're building a business in Los Angeles, you're gonna do that by the like-
6. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah
7. RHRachel Hollis
  ... hustle, right?
8. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah, that's it.
9. RHRachel Hollis
  And so there is a part of me that's like he s- he skipped the line.
10. LHLewis Howes
  He didn't go through the adversity.
11. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes. He like skipped the line.
12. LHLewis Howes
  The challenges.
13. RHRachel Hollis
  And I'm like, "That's not fair."
14. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
15. RHRachel Hollis
  I mean, that sounds so, my gosh, like that's so ego-
16. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
17. RHRachel Hollis
  ... and terrible, but that's the truth, is that's been the hardest part to navigate for me is like all of a sudden we're in this together.
18. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
19. RHRachel Hollis
  Like I, you know, we, all of a sudden like it's, it's, this is a silly thing, but it's not silly to me. Um, we started doing a podcast together, you know, and we do a live show together.
20. LHLewis Howes
  When did that come out? When did, launch?
21. RHRachel Hollis
  A couple months ago.
22. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
23. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
24. LHLewis Howes
  We got two podcasts in the top 10-
25. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
26. LHLewis Howes
  ... in the world.
27. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah. It's crazy.
28. LHLewis Howes
  It's crazy.
29. RHRachel Hollis
  Crazy. We tape them like on our iPhone, which is the best.
30. LHLewis Howes
  It's amazing. It's amazing.
55:06 – 1:01:43
Handling rapid growth without resentment: boundaries, overwhelm, and returning to “why”
1. LHLewis Howes
  Wow. What do you think will be the biggest struggle you have over the next 12 months? Because everything i- you know, here's the thing, he will face a big challenge at some point-
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... with this business.
4. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Because every new season something new is gonna happen.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Mm-hmm.
7. LHLewis Howes
  And as you continue to grow, I hope it keeps growing for you nonstop, but at some point it's not gonna grow to the same level-
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
9. LHLewis Howes
  ... at some point.
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Totally, totally.
11. LHLewis Howes
  It may go flatten and back-
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
13. LHLewis Howes
  ... you know, it may grow-
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
15. LHLewis Howes
  ... in different ways.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
17. LHLewis Howes
  And who knows when that's gonna be.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  Mm-hmm.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Might be years.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah.
21. LHLewis Howes
  But at that point he's gonna have to face some challenges-
22. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
23. LHLewis Howes
  ... like now what do I do to re-
24. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
25. LHLewis Howes
  ... invent what we're-
26. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
27. LHLewis Howes
  ... creating.
28. RHRachel Hollis
  Totally.
29. LHLewis Howes
  Or if the algorithm changes or this, I, and I don't know-
30. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
1:01:43 – 1:06:14
“How?” and the next project: goals, shame-free ambition, and not letting ‘cheap seats’ decide
1. LHLewis Howes
  And what do you think is the... Once women know that they are going to, that they have the ability to own their self-worth and they have dreams bigger than what other people want them to do, what's the next challenge for them?
2. RHRachel Hollis
  How? Like, I mean, I feel like you set me up, like as if you know the next book and you're being a friend to me right now. [laughs]
3. LHLewis Howes
  [laughs]
4. RHRachel Hollis
  But, um, that was the number one question I got when I was writing this, was like, or when this came out, was like, "Okay, how though? You tell me to pursue something more for myself, but how do you... How?" Um, so the next book is, it's called Girl, Stop Apologizing. And it's like stop apologizing for who you are.
5. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
6. RHRachel Hollis
  Uh, the tagline is, "A shame-free guide for embracing and achieving your goals."
7. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
8. RHRachel Hollis
  Like, how do you achieve something? So I was able to look at my life, like professionally and personally, whether it was running a marathon or building a business or-
9. LHLewis Howes
  Mm
10. RHRachel Hollis
  ... getting a book deal, and I, it was all the same roadmap. So maybe you're the same way.
11. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Maybe this is not, like, new, but this is how I did it, was I would start with a goal and I would work backwards.
13. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
14. RHRachel Hollis
  And would break it down into manageable bite-sized pieces, and every single time I got to a new spot in the map and I didn't know how to achieve something, I did the same three things to try and get me uncluttered, and then I'd move forward, and I kept moving forward. Um, so yeah, so that, that's the, that's the question people always wanna know is like, "Okay, I'm in, but how?" I mean, how do I do that without feeling sorry about it? Because so many moms especially have the desire, but they, like, feel so terrible that them pursuing something for themselves means that their partner has to watch the kids.
15. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Or means that they're gonna miss, you know, their friends are like, "We never see you anymore."
17. LHLewis Howes
  Right.
18. RHRachel Hollis
  "You don't come out with us anymore." You know, you sort of let people talk you into giving up on the goal that you had for yourself, which is crazy because, man, those other people are not the ones who are gonna have to live with regret for the rest of their lives. Those other, your friends are not the ones who are gonna watch everyone else go on family vacation, and you can't afford to take your kids anywhere. The other people aren't gonna have to live with the choice that you made, but you allow them to talk you into doing something you didn't wanna do.
19. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
20. RHRachel Hollis
  Um, I heard a pastor say years ago, like, "Don't let someone in the cheap seats have an expensive opinion in your life." Like, don't let someone who's not in the ring get to decide-
21. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm
22. RHRachel Hollis
  ... who you are and what you get to be.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Mm-hmm.
24. RHRachel Hollis
  Um, yeah, so-
25. LHLewis Howes
  Isn't it funny that one, two, or three people can decide our life-
26. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes
27. LHLewis Howes
  ... based on what they want us to do-
28. RHRachel Hollis
  Yes
29. LHLewis Howes
  ... or what they think we should do, and we hold onto that judgment or people-pleasing so much-
30. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
1:06:14 – 1:16:43
Where to follow, events and daily lives—and “three truths” to close
1. LHLewis Howes
  Okay, so you got the, the RISE Podcast, which is, like, top 10 in the world. You've got RISE Together podcast-
2. RHRachel Hollis
  Mm-hmm, for couples
3. LHLewis Howes
  ... which is with you and Dave, and you talk about-
4. RHRachel Hollis
  All the things
5. LHLewis Howes
  ... sex and nipples and-
6. RHRachel Hollis
  [laughs]
7. LHLewis Howes
  ... back fat and-
8. RHRachel Hollis
  All the things
9. LHLewis Howes
  ... when kids are jumping in your bed and you're all naked-
10. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, yeah
11. LHLewis Howes
  ... and, you know-
12. RHRachel Hollis
  Oh, lordy, yeah
13. LHLewis Howes
  ... how do you mana- how do you manage-
14. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
15. LHLewis Howes
  ... running a business together-
16. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
17. LHLewis Howes
  ... and how do you manage the tough conversations-
18. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah
19. LHLewis Howes
  ... and conflict resolution and...
20. RHRachel Hollis
  How do you be intentional with having an incredible relationship?
21. LHLewis Howes
  Mm.
22. RHRachel Hollis
  'Cause we just didn't feel like there were a lot of conversations about that. And, um, any of the success that you see with the book or anything, honestly, for anyone who's in business and you're like, "Man, I wish... Like, what's the edge?" Everything that you see that we're doing that's successful is our fans have asked for something and we've created it.
23. LHLewis Howes
  Yeah.
24. RHRachel Hollis
  Like, we're, it's like we-
25. LHLewis Howes
  That's my life too.
26. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, right. You're i- you're in it every day, so you're talking to them every day. You know what they love, you know... And y- if you're like, "Man, 57 people have asked us the same question, well, shoot, I should probably-
27. LHLewis Howes
  Do a podcast on it, yeah
28. RHRachel Hollis
  ... do a podcast about that." [laughs]
29. LHLewis Howes
  Let's write a book about this.
30. RHRachel Hollis
  Yeah, exactly right. So, um, yeah, so with the, with the couples, uh, podcast, it was just we kept getting so many questions. We were like, "Oh, let's answer these."

Episode duration: 1:16:53

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iOS

Dreams that don’t “make sense” and modeling adulthood for your kids

From years of quiet effort to a breakout book and fast-growing audience

The bikini photo that went viral—and why authenticity changed everything

Finding the message: Ethiopia, a pivotal question, and the birth of the title

Slow start, word of mouth, and the emotional roller coaster of the New York Times list

Moms and ambition: reclaiming identity beyond caregiving

People-pleasing, playing small, and anxiety as a symptom

Breaking the pattern: therapy, daily intention, and Unleash the Power Within

Not pleasing for the first time: personal growth, marriage tension, and a spouse joining in later

The hard conversation that prevented a breakup—and the work that followed

Working together: stepping down as CEO, ego, and division of strengths

Ego, recognition, and gendered dynamics in visibility and opportunity

Handling rapid growth without resentment: boundaries, overwhelm, and returning to “why”

“How?” and the next project: goals, shame-free ambition, and not letting ‘cheap seats’ decide

Where to follow, events and daily lives—and “three truths” to close

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