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Lewis Howes"This Is How To STOP Your Partner From CHEATING..." | Esther Perel
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60 min read · 12,429 words- 0:00 – 3:29
Why Infidelity Needs Rethinking
- EPEsther Perel
When you have a conversation about infidelity, it sometimes looks as if you're justifying it. You could be justifying it, and I think that understanding isn't justifying, and-
- LHLewis Howes
Understanding isn't justifying.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. To try to understand something isn't a way to make it right.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And to not condemn something isn't m- a way to condone it.
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [upbeat music] Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the legendary Esther Perel in the house. Very excited that you're here, that you're-
- EPEsther Perel
Back again [laughs]
- LHLewis Howes
... back again. The last time we had you on was about a year and a half ago, and think it's a few hundred thousand, uh, views on the video on YouTube, over 100 something thousand on the audio, and people can't get enough of you. We had you speak at a Summit of Greatness recently, and people were booing me when I had to take you off the stage-
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- LHLewis Howes
... to get to the next speaker. Uh, so I'm excited to have you back on. You've got a new book out right now. It's called The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity. Uh, we don't have the, the copy here, but you can see it right here on this card. Make sure you guys go pick it up. The State of Affairs, it's gonna be a game changer. You had a book come out 10 years ago, roughly.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
And so you've been doing a lot of research, diving in, and working with a lot of people. You, you work with people one-on-one in your practice, so you're seeing what's happening at the deepest levels of love, pain, suffering, and everything in between, right?
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- LHLewis Howes
You're constantly in this.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- LHLewis Howes
And you've been doing this work for a long time.
- EPEsther Perel
30-plus.
- LHLewis Howes
30-plus years. And, uh, Rethinking Infidelity, most of us never talk about this, right? We don't... It's like a, a subject we don't go into. It's like a scary thing to talk about, but you're saying we should be thinking about it and talking about it more. Is that right?
- EPEsther Perel
See, the interesting thing is that it's not because you don't talk about something that it doesn't exist, and if I go and I ask audiences all over the world for the past, since 2009 now that I began the research on this book, "How many of you have been affected by the experience of infidelity?" About 80% of the people raise their hand.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And that means that they were the children of parents who were unfaithful, or they were the children who were born in an affair, in a love story.
- LHLewis Howes
Really?
- EPEsther Perel
Or they were the siblings, or they were the friend that was consoling a broken heart, or they were the friends that was listening to the confidences of someone who's in the throes of an affair, or they are the third in the triangle. It is systemic, but the topic of infidelity, which has been historically condemned, is historically practiced, shrouded in secrecy and shame, and hence kept very, very silent, and unfortunately not helpful to the thousands of people who grapple with it.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
So I've spent the last years working with hundreds of couples who have been shattered by the experience of an affair and of infidelity in the US and abroad, and I thought we can do better.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm. So what's, what's the definition of infidelity, then? Or how should we be defining it? Is it thinking about being with other people? Is it flirting? Is it... What's the line?
- EPEsther Perel
Right, right.
- LHLewis Howes
What's the boundary? What's the definition?
- 3:29 – 6:40
Defining Infidelity: Secrecy, Emotion and Sexual Alchemy
- EPEsther Perel
So the definition keeps on expanding. That's the first thing. W- It is no longer just because you got pregnant from somebody else. With contraception today, the definition has become is it watching porn? Is it chatting? Is it a massage with happy endings?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
Is it staying active on your dating apps when you're already seeing somebody more steadily? Is it reconnecting with your exes on Facebook? Um, it is actually rather unclear, and it is often left to the people to define it.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
But there are three major elements that I think make it very cle- clearer, for me anyway, to define it, and the first thing is that it usually is organized around a secret. The constitutive element of infidelity is the secrecy. When it's not a secret, when it's consensual, there... it's a complete different story. So the secret is at the heart of infidelity.
- LHLewis Howes
So when your partner doesn't know or isn't aware-
- EPEsther Perel
That's right
- LHLewis Howes
... then it's-
- EPEsther Perel
Yes
- LHLewis Howes
... yes.
- EPEsther Perel
And of course, that today requires you to ask what must be shared and what is private. What is the extent between privacy, secrecy, and transparency? Then the second element is a certain kind of emotional involvement to one degree or another, even if it's hit and run. There still is an emotional involvement.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
It takes effort to make something mean nothing.
- LHLewis Howes
Right [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
Right?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So the, the, the quality of that involvement, with the person, with the sex, with the feelings, that. And then the third one, which is really the most important one, is that it's a sexual alchemy. The element of sexual alchemy is not sex. We know that most affairs are way less about sex and a lot more about desire. Now, desire for what? Desire to be desired, desire to be seen, to feel important, to have someone's attention, someone who cares about you, desire to feel alive, desire to reconnect with lost parts of yourself, way more important than the sex itself. The kiss that you only imagine giving can be just as powerful as hours of actual lovemaking. The mind is the most important sexual organ. These three things, secrecy, emotional involvement, sexual alchemy, intersecting with each other are the three central elements of what makes infidelity. But today that we don't have religious institutions necessarily telling us what is the king of sins, it is left to us. And our relationships to make sense of this, to define it, to know where our lines will be with our partners-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... to know when we cross those lines, and if it's about thinking, if it's about remembering, it's about fantasizing while you're with your partner, if it's...
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
It is a subject that is deeply entrenched in our lives, and often very difficult for us to, to open up.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And yet we need to because, because we need to help people who suffer with it.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. Otherwise, there's always gonna be so much more conflict in the relationship if we don't talk about it, right?
- 6:40 – 9:58
Why Couples Don't Talk Until the Crisis Hits
- EPEsther Perel
Look, the majority of people don't talk about any of this.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Their desires for others, the boundaries they want to establish with each other, what they share sexually, what is private, what is the space of their erotic freedom, even in their head, what feelings are they allowed to have, what kind of friendships do they have with others. Most people talk about none of this until the shit hits the fan.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
In most straight couples, the negotiation of monogamy is very simple. It's five words, "I catch you, you're dead."
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
That's it.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
End of conversation.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And then when there is a crisis, when something breaks out, suddenly people launch into conversations that they've never had, and they are finally grappling with a level of honesty about, uh, this, but in the midst of so much pain that-
- LHLewis Howes
And resentment and anger.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Confusion, pain, rage, disappointment, romantic frustration, you name it. Like, could we do better? Can we do it sooner? Can we have the courage to have some of the difficult conversations before we're in the midst of a crisis?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. I love that you talked about... I've heard you say this before at a few of your speeches, but at our event as well, you mentioned how we expect our partner to be sexy and on all the time, and be intellectually stimulating to us all the time, and to be playful, and fun, and adventurous, and hardworking in their jobs, and take care of the kids, and all these things.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
We expect so much of them, but it's so hard to get everything from one person. Is that right?
- EPEsther Perel
It's a tall party for... It's a tall order for a party of two, isn't it?
- LHLewis Howes
So... Yeah, it's really challenging. So-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... I'm assuming-
- EPEsther Perel
It's one person-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... to give us what once an entire village used to provide. That's what happens. You know, you used to have a community, and the community had all kinds of people in there that gave you a sense of identity, a sense of meaning, a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, all of this, and then you had a church, you had the religious, you know, you had the, the, the realm of the divine. The one and only was called God, not your lover. You know? And now all of this has been siphoned into one relationship. So when-
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... you have an infidelity, it shatters the great ambition of love. Because what does it say? You're not the one and only. You're not the only one. You're actually replaceable. You're not nearly that unique. You're not indispensable, and it breaks you. It's a crisis of identity. It used to always be painful, but it wasn't a crisis of identity where people say, "Who am I? What's, what am I? This is not me. This isn't my life. My whole life is a lie. This whole thing is a fraud. I can't recognize myself."
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Or, "I can't trust... Not only I can't trust you, but I can't even trust my own perception. I have lost my own sense of orientation." It is a complete shattering of the self, and that has never been so acute.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- 9:58 – 13:13
Gender Gap and the Unreliable Numbers
- EPEsther Perel
Look, it happens more and more primarily because women are closing the infidelity gender gap. Women, for the first time, have also the possibility to choose who they want to be with, they have no-fault divorce, they do not risk being excommunicated from church, and they have s- probably, in many quarters at least, some form of economic independence-
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... that allows them to take care of themselves.
- LHLewis Howes
So they're not as in fear of, like, making a mistake or whatever.
- EPEsther Perel
Of losing everything.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Of losing everything. They used to be the possession of men, and-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... the... Look, infidelity has been pr- practically a license for men throughout history all over the world.
- LHLewis Howes
'Cause the men had this power.
- EPEsther Perel
They had the privilege.
- LHLewis Howes
They had the money. They had the this.
- EPEsther Perel
Male privilege.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
That's it. You know, male privilege allowed men to do this with almost, with impunity.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And then we had all kinds of theories that came to explain while men are natural roamers, and they are the conquistadors, and they're not made for monogamy, whereas women are made for monogamy. You know, the, the theory suited the status quo of the power structure, but is that really the case?
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
So we don't know if it really goes up because it depends on the definition. What we do know is that when it comes to sex, men and women lie. Men lie by boasting, by exaggerating, by inflating, because the social pressure for men has always been to pump themselves up as it comes to sex.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And women lie by denying, by minimizing, and by under-representing because the pressure for women has always been to protect themselves, and they needed to therefore-
- LHLewis Howes
Minimize it maybe
- EPEsther Perel
... minimize it.
- LHLewis Howes
Wow.
- EPEsther Perel
So we don't have numbers.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And the numbers go from 30 to 70%, depending on the definition.
- LHLewis Howes
What do you mean by that?
- EPEsther Perel
The numbers of people who cheat-
- LHLewis Howes
30% of women, you're saying?
- 13:13 – 17:48
Raising Fidelity Early in a Relationship
- EPEsther Perel
That's the... That's a fantastic question, because in the beginning you don't wanna talk about it 'cause you don't wanna jinx it.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And then you don't wanna talk about it because you didn't talk about it before.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] Yeah, exactly.
- EPEsther Perel
And then you're looking for the right moment to talk about it. And then when you bring it up later, the person says, "Have you been thinking about this the whole time and you haven't told... Have you done anything? So now I'm already suspicious. Why are you ta-..." Look, I think the simplest thing for the difficult conversations is to have them be integrated as part of the whole thing. When you talk about previous relationships, you ask, "Have you been heartbroken? Have you ever left somebody in a shitty way? Have you ever lied to somebody? Have you cheated on someone? Have you been cheated on? Have you ever made up with someone who cheated on you?"
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
"Have you ever been able to, you know... Um, do you have trust issues about, in general, you know, because of your mother, because of your father? Not even because of your own experiences, you know?" Um, infidelity is a conversation like you talk about intimacy, like you talk about other relationship. I mean, if you go in a business experience and you're with a new partner, you probably would say, "What have been your experiences with other co-founders? You know? What have been your other experiences with business partners? Have you had good experiences? Is this experience sitting on the, on the top of a bad divorce from before?"
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
You know, in general, whoever you choose next is always chosen by default in relation to the one that preceded.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Anyway, so it is right there. And then you say, "Listen, I... This is not because I'm thinking about it or 'cause I wanna do it. It's because I actually wanna get to know you, and I wanna get you... and I want you to get to know me." Then it's a conversation, too. When you love, what is your experience about exclusivity? You know? Many people, it's... find it is... The romantic ideal makes that question forbidden, because once I have found the one and only, and that is the one for whom I'm willing to delete my apps, and that is the one-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... for whom I'm stop my looking, you are now the person that has so captivated me that I stopped s- searching. That's it, my FOMO is taken care of. Doesn't matter that-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
... there are another thousand people out there, you got me. You know? How am I going to then say to you, "You know what? On occasion I still think about this one, or that one, or my ex, or I g- I have attractions." This is normal. We choose not to act on them. Monogamy is a practice. It's not a dogma, and it's not natural. It's a choice.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
It's a practice that we exercise because we choose a certain relationship that we wanna be in.
- LHLewis Howes
Seriously.
- EPEsther Perel
So I say from the start in an integrated fa- Not, "We need to discuss," or whatever.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Just, you know, uh, isn't it a normal question to ask, uh, to some-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... to you, to a new person? You know, "Have you been heartbroken?" That's kind of a different way of saying, you know, have you... And why? You know, um, have you ever dicked somebody around? Have you ghosted somebody? Have you been ghosted? You know, have you had somebody who just kind of... Yesterday I had a woman come to me at a conference and she says to me, "Do you think people can change?" I said, "How many times? He did it once? He did it six times? What's the story?" She says, "It hasn't stopped." And I said, "Look, it's eating you up at this point. I w- I see you. It's not like I have to ask you five questions."
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
"It's eating you up alive. How long?" "Two years." So, but she has a child from a previous relationship. And I s- and then she said, "But then he must be suffering from something." I said, "Now you're gonna take care of him? On top of it you're gonna be the nurse?"
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
"How about you take care of yourself for a minute? Your entire... You're about to have your self-esteem crumble under you. At some point you say no. No because it's eating... It, it just is, like-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... sapping your confidence."
- LHLewis Howes
Or you accept it and you're... That's your relationship, I guess, if that's what you choose to be in.
- 17:48 – 26:14
Rebuilding Trust After a Betrayal
- EPEsther Perel
it's interesting, 'cause you're asking me this, and yet you as an amazing role model have spoken about some of your own experiences of abuse.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
So you know this question. How do you let someone touch you, come near you, not feel like they're gonna harm you? The... Understand the difference between caring touch and hurtful touch.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Allowing yourself to experience pleasure again, allowing yourself to surrender without thinking that while you're not on guard- Nothing bad is gonna happen
- LHLewis Howes
It's really challenging.
- EPEsther Perel
Right. Okay. But it's that same trajectory, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Right, right.
- EPEsther Perel
It's like you begin to h- you, first of all, you're, you ... Well, in this case, you're child versus adult, but you, you-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... you, you hope that it's not because one person hurt you that you lose your faith in humanity. You hope that you know that there are people who are not harmful-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... that there really are good people that care and love. You probably trust with your eyes more open. It doesn't have the same naivete.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And it depends. If you're asking me, how do I trust you again after you have cheated on me, or, or how do I trust-
- LHLewis Howes
Other people
- EPEsther Perel
... another people again?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I think it's two different stories.
- LHLewis Howes
What about the person you're in a relationship with?
- EPEsther Perel
Look, it depends as well, because if you-
- LHLewis Howes
'Cause you gotta ... It's hard to let go of stuff in the past, right?
- EPEsther Perel
So it depends how long is the past.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
If you and I have been together for two years, and this just happened, it's a different story than if you and I have been together for the past 20 years, and we have a family, and we have built a life, and we have buried parents-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... and we have birthed children, and we have built homes, and we have created jobs, and we have a whole life together. And in the midst of this, this experience happened, and you, my woman or my partner, male or female partner, went out. And then you kind of wanna know, how did this happen? What, what, wh- what happened to us? Where were we at? You know, is this related to the relationship? I think the big distinction for me is to figure out what betrayals take place because the relationship had disintegrated in some way, or degraded, and which ones have nothing to do with the relationship. Yeah? People who have been sick.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
People who are unemployed, people who have lost their sense of confidence.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- 26:14 – 31:12
Does Infidelity End Relationships? Contempt and the Four Horsemen
- LHLewis Howes
In your sessions, what, what do you f- find is the, uh, the root of most divorces or breakups or separations? Is it infidelity, or is it something else?
- EPEsther Perel
Infidelity is high up there. You know? Um, it's high up there. It's not, it... But, but is it the consequence or, and the, or is, and is it the cause?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
That's the question you wanna ask. Is it... You know, in some relationships, affairs are the death knell for a relationship that was-
- LHLewis Howes
It's over
- EPEsther Perel
... already dying on the vine.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
But it was already dead. This was just the way out. And in other relationships, the affair actually is an alarm system that jolts people out of a state of complacency, where for the, for the first time in a long time they realize, "Oh my God, I better pay attention. I have so much to lose here."
- LHLewis Howes
Wow.
- EPEsther Perel
So it can make it, and it can break it. I think the biggest killer for relationships in general, doesn't matter if they're short-term or long-term, is contempt. Contempt. You can have volatile relationships, but people scream, fight, uh, but they make up, and they know that fundamentally they care deeply about each other. Contempt is a form of dehumanization. That's the research of one of the big researchers on relationships, John Gott-
- LHLewis Howes
Really?
- EPEsther Perel
The four horses of apocalypse, he calls them. One is criticism-
- LHLewis Howes
Four horses of what?
- EPEsther Perel
Apocalypse.
- LHLewis Howes
Apocalypse. Got it.
- EPEsther Perel
Criticism, defensiveness. Defensiveness, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
It's like every time I say something to you, you can't just say, "That makes sense," or, "Tell me more," or, "Let me try to understand this," or, "Yes, I'm really sorry. Yes, that is a bad habit of mine."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
No, I constantly defend and counterattack and put it back on you, and you know. Um, criticism. Criticism is I can't just say, "I want you to do this."
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
It's like, you know, "You, you, you had to let this sit here again?"
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
You know? It's like, "You, you, you're doing this on purpose, right? I've had to tell you five times I don't want that iPad on the table here."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
You know, "What kind of a thing is this?" You know?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
"This is just in spite. Can't you just ask for something rather than-
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
... make a judgment on the entire person?" Because criticism is a veiled wish. Behind the criticism, there's actually something I want from you, but I have a way of asking it in such a way that guarantees I'm never gonna get it.
- 31:12 – 38:35
Touch, Sex and Erotic Connection
- LHLewis Howes
How important is, uh, touch, sex, hugging, kissing? How important is that for a thriving relationship? 'Cause you hear a lot about a lot of marriages, like, "We have sex once a week, once a month."
- EPEsther Perel
Right.
- LHLewis Howes
"Once every six months." J- are those dying if they're not having that intimacy? And-
- EPEsther Perel
So intimacy is ... And sex is not always the same. You can live without sex, but you can't-
- LHLewis Howes
You can live without sex.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes, but you can't live without touch. If you don't get touched as a human being, you become irritable, aggressive, depressed. We know that children who are not touched have attachment disorders.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, we are people who feed on touch. Sex is a different thing, because people have had sex, women have done sex with men as a marital duty for centuries and felt nothing.
- LHLewis Howes
Hm.
- EPEsther Perel
That doesn't mean it's a good experience.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
So I don't care about numbers. I don't care about frequency or numbers of orgasms or any of that. What you want is the quality of the experience. That's the erotic, how fun is it, the pleasure. Pleasure is the measure, not the performance. Okay? That's a great line of a, a wonderful author named Emily Nagoski. I think touch is essential. Humor, touch, playfulness, an ongoing curiosity and interest in who this other person is, what they're about, what they're thinking about, what they feel, what they look at, what interests them, what ticks them. Just, uh, that, that you remain not just a function of a person who has a few jobs that you have to accomplish. Um, cuddling, uh, skin-to-skin contact, looking into each other's eyes, a smile, you know, a moment where you stop and you just kind of take each other in, this is the lubricant of a relationship. The rest can be a good partnership.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
You can have good partnerships. You can have affectionate coupledom. And you can have relationships that are minimal on the sex, because they lost the interest in that, because they have it somewhere else, because they are sick, because they have ... There are all kinds of reasons. But it depends if one person really misses it. If one person is longing for that kind of a connection, and while the other one says, "If I never had it ever again, it would be fine," then you pay attention.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Because the loss of the erotic is a, is a real loss. It's a loss not about sex. It's about what sex gives you access to. For example, I know a lot of guys that I work with, you know, and if she says, you know, "All he wants is sex," and I'm ... Not all of them, but in the ... You will understand. And I know that's not the point. I know that for this guy, sex is when he actually allows himself to be touched, because he's not necessarily a touchy guy-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... outside. Sex is when he can be tender. And she says, "The only time he's really intimate is in sex." And she says it often from a place of, you know, "I wish he was intimate with me at other times, too." I mean, it makes perfect sense.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
But I also know that this is a guy who probably was given the masculine code.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Your masculine code, in which, you know, tenderness, vulnerability, surrender, being taken care of, all of that has only one place where you can experience it, and that's in sex. Sex becomes the language, the gateway to all those other feelings that are not acknowledged in the male code, unless they've been sexualized. So of course he wants sex, but it's not sex he wants, it's all the other things that sex gives him access to. If he just wants to get laid, he can go and find that, you know. What he wants is the connection with his partner, male or female.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm, 'cause he hasn't been a-
- EPEsther Perel
But let's say with this woman
- LHLewis Howes
... yeah, because he hasn't been able to express that in other ways, or he doesn't know how to, or he-
- EPEsther Perel
He doesn't know how to
- LHLewis Howes
... doesn't feel like he can, or it's not manly enough, or whatever.
- EPEsther Perel
That's right. Sex is the way-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... to experience all these things without feeling like a little boy.
- 38:35 – 40:41
What Perel Learned: Happy Partners Stray, and Affairs Hold Longing
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah. There are two things I think that, uh, that stand out. Actually, three things probably that stand out. Um, one, the... I too for a long time thought affairs only happen in troubled relationships. If you have everything you want, there should be no reason-
- LHLewis Howes
Why go out
- EPEsther Perel
... to go looking elsewhere. But then I began to hear more and more people come into my office and say, "I love my partner. I'm having an affair." You know, in the same way that when I wrote Mating in Captivity, people would say, "I love my partner. I, we have no sex." And I was like, you know, I thought if you love, you desire. And now I thought if you love, you're faithful. So this idea that not all affairs are symptoms of relationships gone awry, that people in happy relationships also stray, and it isn't because of their partner or because of something in the relationship, that there's another theme here, that affairs... And this led me to the second thing.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
Which is that you always have to look at infidelity from a dual perspective. At the heart of affairs is betrayal and hurt, but there is also longing, longing for an emotional connection, longing for intensity, longing for a different sexuality, longing to reconnect with lost parts of ourselves, longing to suddenly feel alive because people have allowed themselves to feel dead on the inside. That, what it did to you and what it meant to me, that you have to be able to figure out both-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... is a much more useful way to help people.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. How do we... You know, all those things we're talking about, longing for a desire of someone else or a different experience or something from the past or all those things you're talking about, how do we get those things in our partner if we're f- feeling those things, that they're missing?
- EPEsther Perel
Say that again.
- LHLewis Howes
E- even if we love our partner.
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
We're not... You know, someone comes to you and is like, "I love my partner-
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... but I feel like I'm missing these other things."
- EPEsther Perel
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
How do we not miss those things or create those in our relationships?
- EPEsther Perel
[laughs]
- 40:41 – 46:53
Bringing Your Best Self and Novelty Home
- EPEsther Perel
Do you know how many times I say to people, "Tell me something. The person that is here in this other relationship, is that the one who comes home?" I mean, the one that your partner, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife-
- LHLewis Howes
Uh-huh
- EPEsther Perel
... is dealing with is not nearly as charming and as attentive. You know, when you prepare your suitcase and you fly, and you choose your carefully chosen clothes and you prepare yourself and, and you know, you don't bring work with you when you go to, you know. But when you go home, you're on your phone the whole time.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
You l- bring the leftovers. You're not nearly that attentive. You're way less charming. Your humor is gone, you know. And, uh, and then you tell me that your, your, your wife is boring or your husband is boring, and you? Who are you here versus who are you there?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Not who are they. Who are you? So that's the first thing. It's like what happened to you that you let this thing seep out of you, and what makes it difficult for you to bring this back into your own relationship?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm. Why, why-
- EPEsther Perel
Why is it-
- LHLewis Howes
... why is that? [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
Multiple reasons why people, why people neglect themselves in some way, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm. Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Why is it that there you can be such a free woman, and here is this boyfriend of yours who think you hate sex, you have no interest, you are utterly, you know, frozen, and this one is like, it's the same woman. What happened? You know? And on top of... That's the bigger lie. The bigger lie is not only that you're having a lover. The bigger lie is that your husband, your boyfriend has no idea what's the truth about you.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Why? And then different stories. Sometimes it's stories from childhood. You know, I have no idea how to bring that part of me in the context of family because family was the place where sexuality was the most dangerous.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
So I have never known how to experience pleasure at home. Home was a place where I made sure to be safe. Pleasure I took somewhere else. Then you start to see the way that people have carved out and compartmentalized themselves, and the reasons behind it. Now it's real therapy work. That's a different-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... s- you know. That's when you start to really try to understand why, why- Why can't you integrate the different parts of you?
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm. Is it kind of like the idea of always dating in your relationship? It's like always trying to be your charming self and not forgetting it? How you got into the relationship, don't like forget that. Is that kind of the, uh, the concept or ...
- EPEsther Perel
I, I ... I don't know if it's always dating, but for, but for sure the couples that are erotic couples are couples who maintain a level of attention on each other.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
They, they, they don't take each other for granted.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
They, they flirt, they are physical, they, they continue to play with each other. They, they-
- LHLewis Howes
They create the d- desire
- EPEsther Perel
... they create desire. I mean, y- you ... it doesn't just stay. I mean, it is an amazing thing to see how attentive people are to their creative projects, to their artwork, to their businesses, to the ... And how o- often rather neglectful. Even a date night, it's nice, but what do you bring to the date night? I mean, do you-
- LHLewis Howes
It's just going through the motions or is it creative? Yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... do you do something ... You know, look, we know that if you do familiar activities with your partner, it's very nice and it creates a real sense of comfort to go back and to repeat things that you enjoy. But we know that if you want to bring excitement into a relationship, you need new experiences. You need to have this relationship, uh, be one in which you take yourself out of your comfort zone, in which you discover something, in which you explore. Traveling, but it doesn't have to be just traveling by going abroad. It's traveling. It's taking yourself to new places, to new experiences with each other, to new thresholds. All the research backs that up.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm.
- 46:53 – 49:16
Staying After Infidelity Without Shame
- EPEsther Perel
I wanted to say one other thing-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- EPEsther Perel
... that I, I had discovered that to me was really important, because it is not getting enough, uh-
- LHLewis Howes
Attention
- EPEsther Perel
... attention these days.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Everything these days is about you make it or you break it. You end. It's not good, you leave. You can do better, you leave. You're not happy or you could be happier, you leave. And I think that the people who actually wanna stay after an infidelity in their relationship are often judged and looked down upon. What's wrong with you? You let him walk all over you. You let her boss you around. You know, um-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, that's scary too. It's kind of like your friends are constantly pressuring you.
- EPEsther Perel
Ah.
- LHLewis Howes
You can do better.
- EPEsther Perel
You don't even tell them.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm. Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
The majority of people I meet won't tell their friends.
- LHLewis Howes
So feel guilty or they feel like-
- EPEsther Perel
They feel judged
- LHLewis Howes
... weak or whatever, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes. Yes. Yes. You dump the dog on the curb.
- LHLewis Howes
Right. [laughs]
- EPEsther Perel
You know? So-
- LHLewis Howes
Forget everything that happened.
- EPEsther Perel
That's right.
- LHLewis Howes
The five years of the relationship just ...
- EPEsther Perel
That's right. Three, 5, or 25.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
Out. And I think sometimes out is what needs to happen. But sometimes this happens in a good relationship, and it happened, and it ... and, and we need to know what to do when it happens, but just to judge people and shame them for staying isn't fair.
- LHLewis Howes
That's not good.
- EPEsther Perel
It's not right. I don't ... And, and I think it really is not giving relationships the credit they deserve.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm. 'Cause they're not perfect. Yeah. They're gonna-
- EPEsther Perel
'Cause they're not perfect, and you know what? Sometimes what comes afterwards is gonna be even better than what was before.
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm. It's a wake-up call. It's the-
- 49:16 – 58:09
How to Be a Good Friend to Someone Who Was Cheated On
- EPEsther Perel
Oh, great question
- LHLewis Howes
... create a space for your friend who went through this to make sure that you're, I don't know, either giving tough love of like, "Okay, let's make sure this doesn't happen over and over," or what's the structure they can give if they can't hire you or a therapist?
- EPEsther Perel
No, I think it's a great question-
- LHLewis Howes
You know what I mean?
- EPEsther Perel
... because so many of us have been that friend.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And, you know, the first thing I say to the friend is, "Try as best as you can not to insert yourself in the story. It's not about you and what happened to you, and what your mother did-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... to your father, or your father did to your mother, and therefore what your girlfriend needs to do. Try to create a space." It's exactly that. Now, if you have a girlfriend, and every time, this is now three times in a row she finds herself with a guy who treats her like shit, you really do wanna tell her, "This is not okay."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And you want to help her pull out. But if you are with a girlfriend or a, a friend, male friend, and they have been together for 12 years, and thr- you know that these people have really been good together, and they've built a lot of things together, tell her, "Figure it out. I'm, I'm here for you."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
"I have no idea what's the right thing for you. You know, I'm, I am here to hold you when you doubt yourself. I'm here to remind you that you are more than just the person that just has been shafted and betrayed. I'm here to give you back your sense of value when you think that you have been completely devalued and pushed aside."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
"I'm here to tell you that you're beautiful when you think that you probably are not beautiful enough anymore. I'm here... You know, I'm gonna hold the other view of you that you don't have in this moment because you're so low."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
That's my role as a friend, not to tell you, "Do this or do that," and judge you. I mean, the amount of people I've seen who say, "My best friend doesn't talk to me anymore-
- LHLewis Howes
Oh my gosh
- EPEsther Perel
... because I've decided to stay with... You know, and why? Not because I think he's such a great man or such a great woman. We have four children. My mother is dying. I, uh, you know, I haven't worked in 20 years. I need... You know, or I have a-
- LHLewis Howes
We have a business together or-
- EPEsther Perel
We have a business together.
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
I mean, there are other considerations here, and I am not ready to walk out on all of this. Even if it's not for the quality of my relationship, but it's because my relationship is the nexus on which-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... so many other parts of my life depend upon, and I'm not willing to let all of that go at this point. Who are we to say? Who are we to say? So it's a very delicate thing, when to leave, when to stay, when to try again, when to give up, when to accept finally that this is never gonna change, when to know, you know. And I think it's different when you're with a chronic philanderer or, or... And when you're with a person who you know for, for years before n- none of this happened. And this happened, you know, what was going on? And what is the shared responsibility for the deterioration of the relationship as well?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
What... Is there things that we collu- colluded on together?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
But as a friend, you really want to be there to give people back their sense of self-worth at the moment when they feel like it's been sucked out of them.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- 58:09 – 1:01:02
The State of Affairs Book and Where Should We Begin Podcast
- LHLewis Howes
Make sure you guys get the book, The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity. It's out right now. Go check it out. There's gonna be a lot more about how to address infidelity in your life, how to think about it, how to talk to your friends about it who have gone through this. Plus, you have a lot of exercises throughout the book, questions you should be asking your partners. Some of the things we've talked about, but much more.
- EPEsther Perel
It's based on hundreds and hundreds of stories.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So of people that I've seen. It has every permutation of the experience. It's, uh... There is not a person who won't recognize something about themselves in there. Even if you haven't gone through the experience.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
It's a book about relationships in the end.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
And it, you know, it's actually a book that will tell you... Today I was talking to someone who said, married 10 years, she says to me, "I have never gone through this, but I really feel like it's telling me everything I should pay attention to, to have a thriving relationship."
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
To actually make that not happen to me.
- LHLewis Howes
To avoid it.
- EPEsther Perel
To avoid it.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
You know? And-
- LHLewis Howes
Not once it's happened, not what to do, but how to avoid. Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Right. Right.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
So I use this experience to dive into all kinds of things. We talk about jealousy. We talk about vengeance.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
We talk about sex. We talk about monogamy.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- EPEsther Perel
We talk about heartbreak. We talk about shitty things people do to each other. We talk about guilt. We talk about being accountable and not-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- EPEsther Perel
... ghosting each other-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah
- EPEsther Perel
... in a million ways. And-
- LHLewis Howes
Sure
- EPEsther Perel
... and it really covers actually, you know, love is messy, and infidelity even more so.
- LHLewis Howes
Wow. Make sure you guys get it. You can go to estherperel.com as well to learn more about all your programs. The book is on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, everywhere else, The State of Affairs.
- EPEsther Perel
And the podcast, I think you should mention.
- 1:01:02 – 1:05:49
Three Truths and Definition of Greatness
- LHLewis Howes
I wanna ask you a couple final questions.
- EPEsther Perel
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
I think I asked you last time, but I'm gonna ask you again. This is called the three truths. So if this was the last day for you many years from now, and you have achieved everything you've ever wanted to achieve, you've written all the books, podcasts, videos, spe- speeches- And yet, for whatever reason, it was all erased, so all your content was gone. And you had a piece of paper and a pen to write down three things you knew to be true about all the experiences in your life, and these lessons would be all that people have to remember of you. What would you say are your three truths?
- EPEsther Perel
Hmm. Oh, I would love one of them to include all the people who think their lives have been changed by working with me, reading me-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... uh, stud- interacting with me. I mean, for whom I really... I mean, when people come to tell me that today, I just think if one day I die and a lot of people walk around this planet and just say, you know, "She changed my life-
- LHLewis Howes
Hmm
- EPEsther Perel
... because, you know, I was stuck," or, or, "She, she, she saved my marriage," or... I went dancing recently, and these people just literally showed up on the, on the, the pier and just like, "You don't know us, but you've changed our marriage. You've changed our life."
- LHLewis Howes
Wow.
- EPEsther Perel
And I'm like... [gasps]
- LHLewis Howes
That's great.
- EPEsther Perel
That. That would be one. Um-
- LHLewis Howes
What about, what about lessons you would share with the world? Like, three lessons.
- EPEsther Perel
Oh, lessons I would share. Um-
- LHLewis Howes
Like, from your life experience.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Yes, yes, yes. Um, you judge people by their actions more than... and that's one clear one. You know, how decent are they?
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
And that has very little to do with how much money they have-
- LHLewis Howes
Right
- EPEsther Perel
... how much education, or which political party they belong to.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
Don't, you know... The, the... It's really the kindness of stranger. You have no idea who can one day be the one who shows up for you.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- EPEsther Perel
It's, it's the, just their humanity. It's not what they stand for and represent.
- LHLewis Howes
Right.
- EPEsther Perel
That, that to me is probably one of the most important, um... it, it changes, it changes every time you look at people. It, it keeps you open and, and curious, and... because you have no idea. They, they may look like whatever. And I... That's one.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- EPEsther Perel
Uh, know where you come from. Always remember where you come from. Um, doesn't mean that you stay stuck there, but it's, it is, it is the source, and we only have one source-
Episode duration: 1:06:01
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