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Lewis HowesLewis Howes

"YOUR BEHAVIOUR Won't Be The Same AFTER THIS!" (Change Your Brain)| Andrew Huberman & Lewis Howes

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Lewis HoweshostDr. Andrew HubermanguestGreat Minds
Feb 19, 20211h 46mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 6:51

    Two Kinds of Stress and Limbic Friction

    1. LH

      You can't fix your mind with your mind sometimes

    2. AH

      Trying to control the mind with the mind is like trying to grab fog. Positive thinking is not about being delusional. Positive thinking is about learning how to take c- control of internal processes and understanding that that will shape your external environment.

    3. LH

      I think you gotta have a dream. The school of greatness. Really? [laughs] Please welcome Lewis Howes. When things are really tough in life, when people are really stressed out, they've had some type of traumatic event, whether it's the loss of their job, the pandemic, whatever it may be, how can people use their mind to then push past pain, or is that not something we should be thinking about, pushing past pain? But how do we use the mind under some type of traumatic experience-

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm

    5. LH

      ... for our benefit?

    6. AH

      Okay. Um, it's an excellent-

    7. LH

      Easy, easy question to start. [laughs]

    8. AH

      It's, it's an excellent question. It has a couple different, uh, answers because there are a couple different categories depending on what, of answer, depending on what people are dealing with.

    9. LH

      Right.

    10. AH

      So I think, um, all trauma, anxiety, fears, they all map back to stress in some way. Now, you can have stress without trauma, you can have anxiety without trauma, but you can't really have trauma without stress and anxiety. So even though there aren't really strict definitions of the boundaries between trauma and stress and fear, I think it's fair to say that trauma is a fear and/or stress response that's happening at the wrong times, right? It's sort of carrying over from an experience. It's making life uncomfortable, or in some cases, exceedingly challenging.

    11. LH

      For example?

    12. AH

      So, um, someone has a, you know, sexual assault.

    13. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. AH

      Um, somebody sees a car accident or is in a car accident. Um, veterans come back from overseas. There's kind of first-person trauma where something happens to somebody, and then there's kind of third-person trauma where somebody sees something terrible happen.

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      There's grief. And so there are a lot of categories, and so we don't want to complicate the, the landscape and the answer, but I think it's important for people to understand that the stress response is at the core of all of this. And when we talk about stress, I think it's also important that we divide that into two kinds of stress-

    17. LH

      Okay

    18. AH

      ... because it defines the two approaches that people can take to combat stress, fear, anxiety.

    19. LH

      What are the two types of stress?

    20. AH

      Okay. The two types of stress are we, the one is the one we're almost all familiar with, because when we hear stress, we think pupils dilating, hands shaking, heart beating. Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, you're really upset. You're stuck in traffic. Something is really bothering you. You're angry. You're having the, the fight or flight response that, you know, that phrase gets thrown around a lot. And in that, those circumstances, it's very important that people take control of their mind and their body in a way that allows themselves to calm down, to reduce the so-called stress response, and we can talk about tools to do that, that are very concrete and that are very reliable. There's another side of the stress response, though.

    21. LH

      So what would that stress be called? What's that type of stress?

    22. AH

      Ah, so, um, unfortunately, there's no name-

    23. LH

      [laughs]

    24. AH

      ... for this. This is one of the important things. Maybe we'll figure it out today.

    25. LH

      Okay.

    26. AH

      Maybe your audience will figure it out.

    27. LH

      Yeah.

    28. AH

      They're, they're a smart bunch, and they're living this stuff, too. So, um, unfortunately, there isn't a word for this, but, um, when I-

    29. LH

      This is one type of stress

    30. AH

      This is one type of stress, which is you're, you're too activated, you're too alert, you're too agitated, and you wanna be less alert-

  2. 6:51 – 12:28

    Control the Body, Not the Mind: Physiological Sigh and Frontal Control

    1. AH

      So on the previous, um, time we met, uh, we talked about a, a tool for calming the body very quickly, which is this double inhale, long exhale. Typically, the inhales are done through the nose, the exhale through the mouth. So the physiological sigh, which was discovered by scientists in the '30s and then Jack Feldman's group at UCLA has really identified the underlying brain circuits, and then my lab is now looking at this stuff in humans in a kind of more clinical setting. That double inhale, [inhales] followed by an exhale [exhales] we know is the fastest real time tool for taking one's state of alertness down.

    2. LH

      The hyper alert stress.

    3. AH

      Right, right.

    4. LH

      Yeah.

    5. AH

      You're not gonna crash into sleep, but you're going from hyp- you're not feeling good, you're too agitated, you wanna calm down.

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      And what's interesting about that tool is it speaks to a principle which is it's very hard to control the mind with the mind.

    8. LH

      [laughs]

    9. AH

      So when you're stressed, just telling yourself, "Don't stress, don't stress, don't stress. Calm down, calm down," rarely works. It also rarely works to tell someone else to calm down.

    10. LH

      To relax. "Hey, relax." Yeah.

    11. AH

      Usually it has the opposite effect.

    12. LH

      [laughs] "Don't tell me to relax."

    13. AH

      And it c- and it can be damaging for relationships.

    14. LH

      Oh.

    15. AH

      If you've ever, you know, someone's really stressed and you tell them to relax, sometimes it actually can create more friction and they don't-

    16. LH

      Sure

    17. AH

      ... feel supported.

    18. LH

      What should they do in that moment?

    19. AH

      They should look to the body. The nervous system includes the brain, but also all the connections to the body-

    20. LH

      Yeah

    21. AH

      ... and back again. And so the, when you can't control your mind, you wanna do something purely mechanical, like the physiological sigh. Because that, you know, once you take control of the body in that way, then the mind-

    22. LH

      Mm

    23. AH

      ... starts to fall under the umbrella of this top-down control again. Top-down control is what children and puppies don't have.

    24. LH

      [laughs]

    25. AH

      You know, if, if, if we had a-

    26. LH

      Impulsive.

    27. AH

      Yeah. I've got a 10-year-old bulldog, his name's Costello. He does, barely does anything now because he's Costello. But he, but when he was a puppy, everything was a stimulus. He would walk over, pick up a cord and chew on it, then he'd drop it and he'd pivot to something else, and it's because they have, they literally have no prefrontal cortex wired into this limbic system. They don't have the suppression, so there's no friction. The limbic system just does whatever it wants. And actually, in humans with frontotemporal dementia and in certain people who have frontal, uh, temporal brain damage, they become-

    28. LH

      Mm

    29. AH

      ... very impulsive.

    30. LH

      My dad went through, I don't know if I talked about this the last time.

  3. 12:28 – 21:13

    Breathing, Heart Rate and Perception of Time

    1. LH

      So how do we learn to have patience when we are hyperalert or overwhelmed, exhausted, stressed?

    2. AH

      Okay. So when we are in hyperalert- There's a mechanism associated with that that makes our internal world measure time differently. What happens under those conditions is you feel like the external world is moving very slowly.

    3. LH

      Mm.

    4. AH

      I think I might have mentioned this in the, our previous meeting.

    5. LH

      Yeah.

    6. AH

      But when you're really stressed on the hyper alert side, it seems like the world is going very slowly. You're gonna... Just knowing that and knowing that it's likely that you're gonna feel impatient and if the world is moving much too slow. Sort of like if you're, if you're trying to get someplace on time and the person in front of you doesn't know where they're going.

    7. LH

      You're like, "Move, go." [laughs]

    8. AH

      I was the guy not knowing where I was going this morning. And so, and we can't see each other in cars, so you think, "What is this person doing? Oh my goodness." And they're just looking for the right turn.

    9. LH

      Yeah.

    10. AH

      Yeah. So there's that. And then when we are fatigued, it seems like the world is going really fast. Okay? And so for people who are exhausted, everything feels overwhelming. Now, of course, the rate that things are actually moving in the world is the same, but the perception is that it's just too much and we can't cope. So we talked about a tool to calm oneself.

    11. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      The reason I like the physiological sigh is we, we are all equipped with the pathway. If people wanna know, if there's some medically oriented folks out there, or if you wanna teach this to other folks, there's a nerve called the phrenic nerve, P-H-R-E-N-I-C, that goes from the brain down to the diaphragm that controls that and then controls the lungs.

    13. LH

      Mm.

    14. AH

      And so when you decide, "Okay, I'm gonna use the sigh, the physiological sigh to calm myself," in a way you're engaging top-down control because you're, you're taking control of your internal landscape.

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. AH

      Rather than trying to take control of your thinking, which is very hard.

    17. LH

      You can't fix your mind with your mind sometimes.

    18. AH

      Trying to control the mind with the mind is like trying to grab fog.

    19. LH

      [laughs]

    20. AH

      It's just gonna keep moving, right? If you've ever tried to grab or, or smoke.

    21. LH

      [laughs]

    22. AH

      It just moves.

    23. LH

      Ah.

    24. AH

      It doesn't... It, it's vapors. You're never gonna grab it. The key is to, is to, um, is to take control of the system by taking control of a real physical entity, this phrenic nerve. Um, and the reason I describe this stuff is not to put a lot of unnecessary detail, but I think when people realize that this isn't something that you build up over time and then are able to do, that you literally have a wire, set of wires that goes down to your diaphragm, this muscle in your ab- ab- abdomen, that can move your lungs. And then as you blow off carbon dioxide, when you do that exhale, you- your brain starts to calm down. And then your mind, the top-down control, the cortex, can start taking control of the limbic system again. It's like you're... It's almost like you're, you're losing control of the automobile, and you're trying to steer, but really there's another lever that if you just pull it, then the sta- the steering wheel will stabilize for you.

    25. LH

      Mm.

    26. AH

      So that's the way to think about the physiological sigh. On the other side of things, when you're feeling overwhelmed and fatigued, there are two ways to approach that. First is the kind of foundation of fatigue, which is almost always poor sleep and scheduling of sleep. This is something that doesn't get discussed a lot, and I don't think I've discussed this on any podcast previously. But, you know, getting better at sleeping is a whole set of practices. But sleep is a slow tool. It's not a real time tool.

    27. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    28. AH

      'Cause if you're feeling exhausted and you have to get up and have your day, deal with children, deal with work, deal with life, y- we can talk about how to get better at sleeping. But in real time, what you wanna do is you want to bring more alertness into the system.

    29. LH

      Focus.

    30. AH

      Focus and alertness. The way to do that is to take advantage of a very well-established medical fact. All medical students learn this. All MDs know this, which is that there's a direct relationship between how you breathe and your heart rate.

  4. 21:13 – 24:49

    Science, Yoga and Learning to Drive Your Nervous System

    1. AH

      And, and one of the things, and I'm, I'm certain there are gonna be people out there listening to this saying, "Wait a second. The yog- the yogis and the yoga community has been talking about this for centuries. What are you doing? You know, this is just a re- recasting of what we already know." I agree. I agree. Within the science community, these things have been given crazy names like arrhythmias-

    2. LH

      Mm-hmm

    3. AH

      ... and heart rate variability, and, um, the diaphragm and the phrenic nerve. And so, the, the language of science has known all, about this for many centuries also, but it's been shrouded by language, and the yoga community has known about this for a long time, but it's been shrouded by language. So by bringing this discussion forth, I'm by, I just wanna be clear that I, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or pretend that I invented the wheel by any stretch. I'm trying to say that we all have these circuits, these levers in our body that we can, that we can pull and push, and people learn how to do this intuitively. But we're never really taught the underlying mechanisms, and I do believe that one... And yoga's not big on mechanisms. They're very good on naming and on, you know, yogis in different areas of the world, when they say something, they usually know what the other one is talking about.

    4. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. AH

      Scientists do as well. But mechanism wa- if people can just understand a little bit about why the heart slows down when you exhale more than you inhale, or why the heart speeds up when you inhale more than you exhale. I do believe that having that knowledge in the mind allows people in a moment of stress to say, "Oh, I understand what's happening to me, and therefore I should go to this particular tool."

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      You know, I, I do understand that one doesn't need to understand how an engine works in order to drive a car, but you do need to know how the control panels work.

    8. LH

      [laughs] Right, right, right.

    9. AH

      Right? This is why we send people to driving school-

    10. LH

      Yeah

    11. AH

      ... and why we don't let 10-year-olds drive. Um, although I'm sure there's some out there.

    12. LH

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. AH

      Um-

    14. LH

      On a farm somewhere, yeah.

    15. AH

      Well, actually, there was this one news thing, I don't know if you've seen this, where a, a state trooper pulls, or a CHP or somebody pulls over a car that's kinda weaving through the lanes on, and they pull over, and I think the kid was six years old.

    16. LH

      Oh my gosh.

    17. AH

      He actually managed to get onto the freeway-

    18. LH

      How?

    19. AH

      ... and he was driving the left-hand lane, and his driving was pretty bad, but he was below the-

    20. LH

      That's crazy

    21. AH

      ... wheel. Well, that just tells you that the young mind is eager to steer things and press pedals and things of that sort.

    22. LH

      Yeah, explore.

    23. AH

      We are definitely not recommending that.

    24. LH

      [laughs]

    25. AH

      But this is very different than driving a car in the sense that all the panels and all the controls are there.

    26. LH

      Mm.

    27. AH

      We have, we're all, most people are taught how to drive a car. W- most people are not taught how to drive their nervous system. And so a lot of what I'm talking about here is just one language, one version-

    28. LH

      Mm-hmm

    29. AH

      ... of the language of how to drive and control your nervous system.

    30. LH

      And you can't drive your nervous system with thoughts and controlling your mind alone.

  5. 24:49 – 31:41

    Offline Practices: Hyperventilation Breathwork, Cold and Yoga Nidra

    1. AH

      Now, i- inhale emphasized breathing can be practiced in a way, sort of away from stress in a kind of offline approach that can be beneficial for raising what we call stress threshold. So there's a whole other way to look at stress, which is to say, how do I get calmer-

    2. LH

      [clears throat]

    3. AH

      ... in the mind when my body is freaking out?

    4. LH

      There you go.

    5. AH

      And, uh, I think people will recognize some of what I'm about to describe as kind of Wim Hof-like breathing.

    6. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. AH

      It w- is also traditionally been called Tummo breathing. Some people call it super oxygenation breathing, although then you, there are other people like Patrick McKeown and company that will say, "Well, you're actually blowing off more carbon dioxide than you are bringing in oxygen." And so the naming again now is a mess. And so-

    8. LH

      Yoga Nidra breathe, breathing-

    9. AH

      So Yoga Nidra is exhale emphasized.

    10. LH

      Okay.

    11. AH

      But, um, Tummo breathing, Wim Hof breathing, and super, what sometimes is called super oxygenation breathing-

    12. LH

      Uh-huh

    13. AH

      ... involves doing a lot of inhale, exhale, inhale, ex- it's hyperventilating.

    14. LH

      Uh-huh.

    15. AH

      It's deliberate hyperventilation.

    16. LH

      [laughs] Yeah.

    17. AH

      E- followed by exhales and breath holds.

    18. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. AH

      Followed by inhales-

    20. LH

      And holds

    21. AH

      ... and breath holds.

    22. LH

      Yeah.

    23. AH

      Now, the repetitive breathing more quickly and deeply, this kind of thing, [inhales] [exhales] [inhales] [exhales] or some variant of that, all through the mouth or all through the nose, brings up the heart rate and causes the adrenal glands, which sit right above the kidneys, to secrete adrenaline. They make you more alert. And we know this. My lab has been looking at this-

    24. LH

      [clears throat]

    25. AH

      ... with a number of different measures, exploring the nervous system and the periphery, like the heart rate, and you see these big inflections in heart rate when people do this. Typically, it makes people feel agitated at first. They feel a little bit agitated. And then when you exhale and hold your breath for 15 seconds or so, or longer in some cases if somebody's skilled at this, what you're doing essentially is you're learning to be calm as your body is flooded with all this adrenaline and the heart rate is going.

    26. LH

      You're learning to calm your mind.

    27. AH

      That's right. So you're learning actually to separate the mind and body.

    28. LH

      Mm-hmm. Your body might be shaking-

    29. AH

      That's right

    30. LH

      ... and vibrating.

  6. 31:41 – 39:21

    Shifting Gears: A Toolkit and Neuroplasticity

    1. LH

      But at the end of the day, what I'm hearing you say is you can control the mi- the body or the mind with the mind to an extent-

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm

    3. LH

      ... for, for moments or even extended periods of time, hours maybe.

    4. AH

      That's right.

    5. LH

      But really we need to be thinking the mind-the-body connection at all times.

    6. AH

      That's right.

    7. LH

      Because if you stop breathing, if you're, or if you're only doing short breaths the whole time for a whole day, it's gonna affect the body-

    8. AH

      Right

    9. LH

      ... and the mind. And if you're, um [lips smack] so it's, it's using the body, using the breath, using it where it's connected to the brain to constantly support you throughout the day. But if you're just like [panting] all day, it'll help you get to a certain point, but then it'll be detrimental to your health.

    10. AH

      Right. So these, these breathing practices are about shifting the gears.

    11. LH

      Yes.

    12. AH

      But they're not something that you continue doing throughout your day.

    13. LH

      All day, yeah.

    14. AH

      Really what I've described here are hardwired, meaning we were all born-

    15. LH

      Mm-hmm

    16. AH

      ... with these neurons and connections in our body, we were all born with these organs to be able to do these things. We- there's not a lot of learning involved.

    17. LH

      Mm.

    18. AH

      Once you know how to do it, it works the first time, it works every time.

    19. LH

      Yes.

    20. AH

      But it's sort of like shifting gears. There aren't too many manual transmissions these days. But let's say-

    21. LH

      [laughs]

    22. AH

      ... you're driving down downhill, it's going too fast. You would, if... This is like taking it into a, a lower gear, so then you slow down. You're not gonna constantly be riding the clutch, right?

    23. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AH

      You're not gonna constantly be in the shifting mode or riding the brake. Some people do that-

    25. LH

      [laughs]

    26. AH

      ... but that's not good.

    27. LH

      Yeah.

    28. AH

      Right? You don't wanna have to do that. Just like if you're going uphill, you might have to hit on the gas a little bit, otherwise you're not gonna get up that hill, but at some point you switch gears and then you're just cruising up the hill.

    29. LH

      Yeah, exactly.

    30. AH

      Right? So it's a transmission system-

  7. 39:21 – 48:52

    Law of Attraction Through a Neuroscience Lens: Senses, Perception and Thoughts

    1. LH

      I wanna ask you a question. I wanna shift gears in a, in a, in a strategic way. Um, and I love to have practitioners, scientists, doctors, um, researchers who are into the practicality of things, but I also love to have philosophers, spiritual leaders, and manifestors, like I call, people that are talking about the law of attraction-

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm

    3. LH

      ... and the way we think and how our thoughts allow us to attract the things we want in our life, whether it be a positive thing or something they don't want, but our thoughts really start to attract. And I wanna understand the science of the law of attraction.

    4. AH

      Oh, my. Okay.

    5. LH

      Because I recently had the author of The Secret, which has kind of made the law of attraction more mainstream and popularized. This is something that's been around for a long time. The, uh, manifesting your thoughts and the law of attraction is not a new thing, but she popularized it with The Secret, Rhonda Byrne. And as I was interviewing her, and I've interviewed a lot of different experts who talk about the law of attraction, it's always been fascinating to hear the results they get in their life based on using this principle called the law of attraction or thinking of certain thing- things that you want, desiring certain things that you want as if it's already happened, imagining as if you already have it-

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm

    7. LH

      ... visualizing it, and also acting. It's not just thinking and it comes to you, but thinking, manifesting, attracting the people you need in your life for it to, to manifest, taking the actions necessary, learning the skills. But as opposed to having a mind of chaos, it's hard to manifest what we want under a mind of chaos.

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LH

      But when we're clearer, we start to manifest those things with a process. Can you break down the science of the law of attraction-

    10. AH

      Oh, my. Um-

    11. LH

      ... and, and, and why this idea of thinking a certain thing will manifest, why that is accurate or not?

    12. AH

      So I ha- I confess, I'm not super familiar with it, although-

    13. LH

      Yes

    14. AH

      ... I've heard about it. It, um-

    15. LH

      So law of attraction essentially just being, uh, what you think, you become, what you think, you create.

    16. AH

      Yeah

    17. LH

      What you, what you think about consistently, you'll start to attract in your life, is kind of the baseline principle. There's more to it, but I'm simplifying it.

    18. AH

      Okay.

    19. LH

      So when we think about something consistently in our minds, is there science around this that, uh, validates or doesn't validate that we start to, in the physical world, attract our thoughts-

    20. AH

      Oh

    21. LH

      ... whether it be a negative thought about what-

    22. AH

      Hmm

    23. LH

      ... I don't want or a thought around what I do want? It's almost like saying, okay, when you think about a pink elephant, you, you see it everywhere.

    24. AH

      Right.

    25. LH

      Is this... Is there science to this?

    26. AH

      So, um, well, I can't give a, uh, intelligent answer about the, the law of attraction specifically, but what I can perhaps do is shed some light on what we think we know, what neuroscientists think we know-

    27. LH

      Mm-hmm

    28. AH

      ... about, um, how thoughts and thinking actually work and how those relate to behaviors. And then I'll give a little anecdote that, um-

    29. LH

      Sweet

    30. AH

      ... that, uh, I think people might appreciate because it's something that I keep in mind a lot in thinking about goal setting and-

  8. 48:52 – 1:02:47

    Beliefs, Dopamine and Honest Positive Thinking

    1. AH

      And there's some interesting data that were published in the journal Neuron this last year, not from my group, that show that beliefs actually have their own rewarding quality, that there's actually dopamine release associated with beliefs.

    2. LH

      Having an, a b- a belief.

    3. AH

      Yes. So when you believe something, your, there are chemical reward systems in your mind that are associated with just repeating that belief. Now again, this has a dark side and a light side. The dark side is it means that people can be very fixed in their beliefs, and they're actually being chemically rewarded for having the same belief

    4. LH

      The world is flat. I believe the world is flat, and just saying it over and over again.

    5. AH

      Right, or in-group, out-group type thinking of any kind. Or-

    6. LH

      What do you mean in-group, out-group?

    7. AH

      Well, when people think, "Oh, I believe that that group of people over there is this way-

    8. LH

      Ah

    9. AH

      ... and/or good or bad," right? It's, there's a self-reward mechanism-

    10. LH

      Mm

    11. AH

      ... that's getting engaged there.

    12. LH

      I'm, I'm greater than this group for whatever reason.

    13. AH

      Could be greater than or less, less than. So as, you know, the beliefs are attached to a set of rewards.

    14. LH

      Interesting.

    15. AH

      So what the... Now, the dopamine system is exceedingly powerful because dopamine is, is a kind of a dumb molecule. It has no brain of its own.

    16. LH

      [laughs]

    17. AH

      It's just a, it's just a molecule, right?

    18. LH

      Yeah

    19. AH

      It's just a chemical. But when dopamine is released in our brain, we, first of all, it tends to orient us towards goals in the outside environment. It's the m- it's the molecule not just of reward, but of motivation. And when we release dopamine, we tend to see the world in terms of external goals. And so you can imagine now if there's a process built up inside us where our thoughts are causing dopamine release and dopamine is shaping what we see as rewards, what we perceive as rewards, that can be wonderful or terrible-

    20. LH

      Wow

    21. AH

      ... depending on how that's harnessed.

    22. LH

      So let me understand this. When we have dopamine, uh, triggered in our body, it's attached to, because it's attached to some type of belief, we're gonna continue to say, "This feels good."

    23. AH

      That's right.

    24. LH

      So let me keep thinking this way.

    25. AH

      And viewing the world this way.

    26. LH

      In this way-

    27. AH

      That's right

    28. LH

      ... 'cause it's gonna keep making me feel good-

    29. AH

      That's right

    30. LH

      ... physically.

  9. 1:02:47 – 1:08:27

    Dopamine, Motivation and Light at Night

    1. LH

      So if we think negative thoughts consistently, does negative thoughts generate dopamine?

    2. AH

      Okay. So there are a couple things that can suppress dopamine. One of them, which I will just put out there because I think a lot of people will, um, they will either like this or not like this.

    3. LH

      A lack of sleep or what? [laughs]

    4. AH

      Um, turns out that... And this was published in the journal Cell by, uh, two groups working together. Samer Hattar is a good friend of mine, but he's head of the chronobiology unit at the National Institutes of Mental Health, and David Berson's lab at Brown University, published a paper showing that exposure to screen-type light between the hours of 11:00 PM and 4:00 AM-

    5. LH

      [laughs]

    6. AH

      ... activates a specific circuit in a brain area called the habenula, it's a weird name, that lowers dopamine and creates a sense of disappointment and depression.

    7. LH

      [laughs]

    8. AH

      So it's pro-depressive.

    9. LH

      So every teenager in the world is depressing themselves-

    10. AH

      That's right

    11. LH

      ... or any adult who's-

    12. AH

      Yeah, we all do it

    13. LH

      ... who's on their phone after 11:00, after midnight, 1:00, 2:00, whether it be watching a movie, whether it be on an iPad. Does it matter how close to a screen you are on your phone?

    14. AH

      So if you dim it way, way down, you don't get this dopamine-

    15. LH

      Or you wear the glasses-

    16. AH

      ... suppression effect

    17. LH

      ... or the biohacking stuff or-

    18. AH

      You could do that as well.

    19. LH

      But still-

    20. AH

      Although it's really the brightness of light, not the, the color of the light.

    21. LH

      So the studies by multiple groups are showing that from 11:00 PM to 4:00 AM, if you're on your phone, if you're looking at a TV or s- or a s- iPad or screen consistently, it's going to make you more depressed.

    22. AH

      In theory, yes. Um, in practice, you would have to do that pretty consistently.

    23. LH

      Got it.

    24. AH

      So there's not, like, one exposure-

    25. LH

      It's gonna ex-

    26. AH

      ... that's gonna work

    27. LH

      ... it's gonna dim dopamine.

    28. AH

      That's right. It's gonna blunt dopamine.

    29. LH

      And-

    30. AH

      And so our, our levels of things like dopamine and epinephrine, serotonin, and these other so-called neuromodulators reflects the, our average behaviors, our average thinking. It's not like one thought's gonna crush your dopamine.

  10. 1:08:27 – 1:16:54

    Dopamine and Serotonin: Pursuit Versus Appreciation

    1. LH

      How much dopamine should we have a day? How many times should we be triggered in dopamine? And do we have dopamine just by sitting and, and doing kind of mindless stuff? Do we still have a low level of dopamine?

    2. AH

      Okay

    3. LH

      Or does it only come in moments when our senses are heightened?

    4. AH

      So dopamine can come from surprise. So if you're bored and all of a sudden, I don't know, someone you really want to hear from calls you, suddenly you have energy. You were lethargic and depressed, and suddenly there's your lift. That's the dopamine response. Um, how much? It depends. So there's some hardwired things that are important to the propagation of our species that have direct access to the dopamine system. Finding mates, for instance, the birth of a new child, right? Creating more progeny. Uh, food, great tasting food, social connection, um, water when we're thirsty. The amount of dopamine that's released will be proportional to how badly we crave that thing

    5. LH

      Mm.

    6. AH

      Now, in the sort of world of addiction, this is a well-understood phenomenon because what happens is, I define addiction as a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure, meaning a progressive narrowing of what allows for dopamine release, right? And relief from addiction, in addition to people moving away from the addicting substance, often involves a progressive expansion of the things that give them belief, more appreciation. A lot of 12 step programs, NA, AA, have these elements of finding appreciation-

    7. LH

      Gratitude in something else

    8. AH

      That's right

    9. LH

      Than the addiction.

    10. AH

      Right, because people have been living in this tunnel of addiction. Now, for, if w- barring addiction and taking mania out of the equation, pushing aside depression, and we say, well, how much dopamine? Well, throughout your day, what'll happen is if you're used to succeeding at certain things, one, you have to be... I'm not talking to you particularly, but one has to be a little bit cautious to continue to pick up the r- the do- those dopamine rewards. So $100 to you at one point in your life probably meant a lot.

    11. LH

      Mm.

    12. AH

      A nice crisp $100 bill. Later in life it might not get you as much in life. But having an appreciation for the fact that you have money at all, if you understand that that dopamine release actually gives you energy to continue to pursue more of what you want-

    13. LH

      Mm

    14. AH

      ... then you start to think of dopamine as not just an endpoint, but a way to propel you forward.

    15. LH

      So that's-

    16. AH

      And so that's why gratitude and... Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off

    17. LH

      No, you're good. You're good

    18. AH

      But that's why gratitude and appreciation is important because ultimately you don't wanna be delighted by everything, but you also don't wanna be constantly feeling as if you have nothing. The, the sort of idea is-

    19. LH

      Lacking

    20. AH

      That's right. I mean, the idea of abundance, I do like this concept of abundance. The idea of abundance is not that you have so much that you don't need more, it's that there's enough out there that there's plenty for everybody.

    21. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    22. AH

      And so it's very important when we're thinking about reward mechanisms in the brain that we understand that dopamine is thoughts about, movement towards, and the experience of pursuing things that are outside the reach of your skin. Mates, mate, a p- you know, a, a partner-

    23. LH

      Mm

    24. AH

      ... um, food-

    25. LH

      Money

    26. AH

      ... uh, uh, m- money, a career

    27. LH

      Home

    28. AH

      ... a degree

    29. LH

      Car, yeah

    30. AH

      Things that are outside your reach. There's another reward system, which is the serotonin system-

  11. 1:16:54 – 1:30:10

    Jim Carrey, Neediness and Self-Rewarding the Process

    1. LH

      Going back to, there's a famous story about Jim Carrey where he said he would drive up Mulholland Drive here in Los Angeles pretty much every day or once a week, and visualize himself acting in the main movies, the blockbuster hits.

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LH

      When he was a, like a stand-up comic on, like open mic night type of stuff.

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LH

      Right? He would visualize it, and he would sit there and he'd feel a feeling as if he's on the set-

    6. AH

      Mm-hmm

    7. LH

      ... with the big actors. As if he's receiving the checks, and he would write himself a check, I think it was for $10 million or $5 million. And he would imagine this happening, him receiving it. And then he would go do his work throughout the day and, and, and take action on it, and he always tells this story, or it's a famous story that he said, "You know, this is what I would do. I'd visualize this, I'd think about it, I wrote a check to myself years before it actually happened."

    8. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    9. LH

      "But then it came to me."

    10. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    11. LH

      And this idea of thinking, a- again, and, and you mentioned the idea of like neediness in the sense of like, if someone's like too needy, then they're not gonna get it. People are gonna be rejecting that neediness. But when someone's comfortable in their own skin, it's almost like everyone comes to them, or things start-

    12. AH

      It's like they already have it

    13. LH

      ... like they already have it.

    14. AH

      That's right.

    15. LH

      And they talk about this in the Law of Attraction, uh, community about when you're chasing something or you're, you're saying you don't have it, you're, you're like needing something, you're saying you don't have it. But when you become comfortable with where you are, things start to attract to you. And you have like a-

    16. AH

      And you have energy

    17. LH

      ... and you have energy, and you're like a magnet-

    18. AH

      Yeah

    19. LH

      ... as opposed to an opposite magnet resisting these things-

    20. AH

      That's right

    21. LH

      ... that you need and want.

    22. AH

      Pursuit is very taxing, and the reason is, there's a biochemical reason for this, is it's like wandering in the desert not knowing if there's water at all. That's really th- depleting. I mean, epinephrine is in the brain, and its eq- its chemical equivalent in the body is adrenaline. Those are the same thing. And if you're constantly in pursuit, right? You're just pursuing external goals, ex- external goals, external goals, it will wear your nervous system down. You will be exhausted, and you will, one will eventually run aground. You'll become-

    23. LH

      Interesting

    24. AH

      ... mentally depressed. The key is to figure out what are the rewards that you can acquire along the way internally. Remember, it's subjective. There can also be external rewards, because many things have milestones. You know, a series A or a series B for a company, then the IPO-

    25. LH

      Yeah

    26. AH

      ... later. But-

    27. LH

      Reaching a million users or doing this.

    28. AH

      Yeah.

    29. LH

      Yeah.

    30. AH

      That we have engagements before we have weddings typically, right? [laughs]

  12. 1:30:10 – 1:36:25

    Setting Goals and Making Them Public

    1. LH

      I'm curious, as we're getting to the, uh, the beginning of the year and a lot of people set goals for the year for themselves, or if they're ending a career, exiting a business, getting out of a relationship, they'll usually set some new type of goal for themselves.

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. LH

      So whether it's the beginning of the year or you're just in transition and you wanna set new goals, what do you think is, based on neuroscience, is the best way to set a, a year-long goal for yourself? Should we have 20 massive goals? Should it just be one big goal? Should we have three key goals? Um, and how do we create the goal to where it drives us to perform at our optimal best-

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm

    5. LH

      ... and get the closest to that goal, if not accomplish it? And what should we be thinking about throughout the year in order to accomplish the goal?

    6. AH

      Yeah. Um, well, I can give an opinion on this, um, but it's just my opinion. Um, I mean, I break up my life into these 12-week cy- You know, I think it was 'cause it, I've always done 12-week training cycles.

    7. LH

      You're like an athlete. It's a season.

    8. AH

      Yeah. 12-week training cycles, um, just seems manageable-

    9. LH

      Mm

    10. AH

      ... somehow. Um, with the understanding that there will be setbacks and things of that sort. I think that certain goals are goals of practices that we've already mastered. So, you know, you're trying to next level what you've already accomplished. And so those goals are gonna require a lot less limbic friction, if you will, and you already know how to access the rewards. You actually can predict the rewards and when they come. You actually know what the rewards are. You've really clearly defined them. Those are goals that I think, um, we're sort of on autopilot with, and I think everyone should probably check in at the end of the year and say, you know, my... If I'm gonna continue along that trajectory, it might make sense for me to set some really concrete goals. Sometimes those are quarterly, um, financial quarters or-

    11. LH

      Mm

    12. AH

      ... academic quarters if that's what the landscape-

    13. LH

      Sure

    14. AH

      ... you're in. But I think that, um, that doesn't require a lot of us, except more of the same, right? But those are nonetheless growth goals.

    15. LH

      Before we continue this video, make sure to subscribe below and turn on the notification bell right now so you don't miss out on these great videos every single day.

    16. AH

      There are other goals that are very different. Last time we talked, you were learning Spanish, right?

    17. LH

      Yeah, still learning.

    18. AH

      Yeah. Great.

    19. LH

      Still learning.

    20. AH

      And there's a, and there's a little bit more friction there because it takes-

    21. LH

      Very challenging

    22. AH

      ... it takes more effort to lean in because you, when you don't already know how to do something, it's a very different goal pursuit.

    23. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    24. AH

      Right? So like, um-

    25. LH

      So if I already have my business and I've been running it for a few years, you know certain practices of how to get to where you've been.

    26. AH

      That's right.

    27. LH

      And you're thinking, "How do I double my business?"

    28. AH

      That's right.

    29. LH

      It's different than I'm trying to learn a whole new skill goal.

    30. AH

      Right. You already know how to cer- forage for water.

  13. 1:36:25 – 1:40:07

    Play, Humor and Being Pleasant Company for Yourself

    1. AH

      Well, this is where play becomes very important.

    2. LH

      You need play.

    3. AH

      Because, you know, the great physicist, you know, Richard Feynman was also famous, in addition to being a, you know, a physics phenom, for having this sense of play. He learned to bongo drum late in life, he was, became an artist late in life, and he had this lightness and this, and this kind of joyful way to approach things. Humor at one's self is incredibly powerful. Now we know the chemical basis for that. Laughing at one's self is often the best way to move forward.

    4. LH

      Really?

    5. AH

      Yeah, because you, you, you... I mean, I do this, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm biased, but I do this all the time. I'll just laugh at myself for how worked up I can get about the fact that a, a file won't load or something like that, and I just laugh. I mean, it's crazy. I mean... And all of a sudden I have the energy to do it. You know?

    6. LH

      So what does that do for our brain when we laugh at ourself? But not, but there's probably a difference between laughing at ourself or something like that versus making fun of something that's a bad habit, like, I don't know, always-

    7. AH

      Well, not shaming ourself

    8. LH

      ... not shaming ourselves.

    9. AH

      Yeah, because-

    10. LH

      Like, "Oh, I'm 200 pounds overweight."

    11. AH

      Yeah.

    12. LH

      "Let me laugh at myself."

    13. AH

      Because shame is kind of written into, like, who we are.

    14. LH

      Oh.

    15. AH

      It's not about what we're doing. It has this element of, like, who we are. You know, guilt is sort of more about, I forget who said this, but it wasn't me first, I just wanna be clear. I recognize it wasn't me first. Guilt is sort of more about, um, what we did.

    16. LH

      Mm.

    17. AH

      You know, shame is, is like an identity thing. Um, but-

    18. LH

      Mm. But laughing at ourself-

    19. AH

      Yeah, like laughing at ourselves, like how ridiculous the human mind can be.

    20. LH

      Right. Gotcha.

    21. AH

      I mean, let's face it, as brilliant as, as the, the nervous system and our minds and our bodies can be, they, they make a lot of mistakes.

    22. LH

      Yes.

    23. AH

      I mean, we, we are a fallible species. We're not a perfect species, and perfection should never be the goal.

    24. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    25. AH

      In fact, you know, if anything, laughing at one's self is the right thing to do because it reminds us that perfection is impossible.

    26. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    27. AH

      And that the, but that really incredible- ... sort of feats of accomplishment or feats of creativity of any kind or anything come from having a lightness and a humor. I mean, those are the people that we enjoy being around. I'm always amazed that we, we know the kind of people we like being around, but then we don't actually become that person to just be around-

    28. LH

      [laughs]

    29. AH

      ... in our own skin.

    30. LH

      Yeah.

  14. 1:40:07 – 1:46:23

    One Belief to Try, Plus Upcoming Projects

    1. LH

      If there's one new belief that someone could try on in the new year, after a year of a lot of stress and anxiety and overwhelm, if there's one new thought or belief that someone could say, "You know, let's just take a look at this idea-"

    2. AH

      Mm-hmm

    3. LH

      ... this belief."

    4. AH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. LH

      That could help them tremendously in their life, whether it be in their relationships, their career, business, whatever it may be, health, what would that belief be that they should try on?

    6. AH

      Okay. Um, I promise to be succinct about this.

    7. LH

      Yeah. [laughs]

    8. AH

      The belief I think everybody can benefit from is the belief that the reward mechanisms in the brain, dopamine release in particular, are completely under their subjective control.

    9. LH

      Mm.

    10. AH

      And the immediate retort that I get is, "Yeah, but I don't wanna be out of touch with reality. I don't wanna tell myself I've won when I've actually lost." And I'd say, "Exactly." You have to maintain control of that system so that you're not just releasing dopamine into your system through thoughts or humor of any kind randomly. You need to attach it to things that, to you, also feel very real and important in life. And if you can start to identify those things, what's real and important to you in life, and then learn to access the subjective release of dopamine in your mind, that essentially guarantees that you're gonna be able to continue to move forward in the pursuit of goals. And it essentially guarantees that you'll be joyful in the process, not always, but a lot of the time, and it essentially guarantees that the way that you're gonna show up in the world is with more capacity.

    11. LH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AH

      Because we've been talking about a lot of these things in the kind of vacuum that is individuals and their pursuits, but the other thing that's really wonderful to be around are people that know how to access this. Because those are the people we orient to as leaders and as, as, you know, coworkers and as teammates. And I'm not just talking about in sports teams and in the workplace, but also in family. When we see that other people have a capacity and they're not just grinding it out-

    13. LH

      Mm-hmm

    14. AH

      ... it, there's a, there's an interaction that happens between members of the same species where we start to feel more possibility for ourselves.

    15. LH

      Mm.

    16. AH

      And that's really, I think, what we really need, especially heading into 2021. I think, you know, especially in 2021 and beyond, I think we really need to ask ourselves how are we showing up for ourselves in the pursuit of goals, and what kind of process we're using and, and what kind of process we're demonstrating for others. I think that's really important.

    17. LH

      Yeah.

    18. AH

      I, I think there could be tremendous benefits. So the belief to play with is that your beliefs are under your control, that it takes some practice, and that this dopamine system is really incredibly valuable, and that you are endowed with one and you are able to use it how you like.

    19. LH

      Yeah.

    20. AH

      It's, uh, don't leave it at the, at the d- control-

    21. LH

      [laughs]

    22. AH

      ... and discretion of external events.

    23. LH

      This has been fascinating. Uh, I wanna go for another three hours, but I think there's a lot to unpack here for people, so I want you to take this information and run with it, start applying it. I wanna have you back on in the future, because there's a lot of things I have written down that I didn't ask, and I wanna dive into the neuroscience of developing powerful, intimate relationships, the neuroscience behind making more money and what money does to the brain, whether it be good or bad, why some people view money as a bad thing and others view it as a good thing, and the neuroscience behind healing the body with the mind.

    24. AH

      Mm.

    25. LH

      So that's what I wanna talk about the next time.

    26. AH

      Great.

    27. LH

      If you guys want Andrew to come back on, leave a comment below, #greatness, if you want him to come back on and talk more about some of those things and everything else that we've covered today. Uh, it's been powerful. You've got an amazing Instagram account, uh, hubermanlab, that people can go follow. Every day you're posting incredible little 30-second, uh, neuroscience ideas around the brain and the body connection. You're breaking it down in a simple way for us to understand our bodies, our minds. How to achieve goals. So make sure to follow you on Instagram, Twitter as well, Huberman Lab. And I know you've committed to writing a book and having that out sometime soon, so we're all gonna hold you accountable to it.

    28. AH

      That's right. I, I do have a, uh-

    29. LH

      Is there a date with that coming out or no?

    30. AH

      Yeah, it's gonna come out in 2021.

Episode duration: 1:46:23

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