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The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

Stop Wasting Your Time: How to Deal With People Who Won’t Change & What to Do Instead

There’s someone in your life you wish would change. You’ve pushed, reminded, and given advice. You’ve had the same conversation over and over. And somehow, you’re still stuck in the same frustrating cycle of fighting, nagging, lecturing, and hoping they’ll finally do something differently. There is a better way. In today’s conversation, Mel sits down with renowned behavioral scientist and award-winning NYU professor Dr. Dolly Chugh to unpack the surprising science of why people resist change and what really works. You’re going to walk away with some of the most powerful, research-backed tools Dr. Chugh teaches at NYU – tools that will change how you see difficult people, frustrating relationships, and your own ability to influence how others behave. You’ll learn: -The 3 things that really do help when someone you love won’t change -The simple question to ask before giving advice – so it doesn’t backfire -The 4-option question that reveals what someone needs from you in a difficult moment -The relationship tool that keeps small problems from turning into 10-out-of-10 fights -How to tell when “helping” someone is keeping them stuck -The 2 “bodyguards” in your brain that explain why you know better but still don’t do better -Why your brain can fight change even when you desperately want it -The surprising role “unlearning” plays in changing a habit or behavior If you’re exhausted from trying to change someone you love, this conversation will give you a different way forward – starting today – that feels lighter, more hopeful, and extremely doable. Your relationships will never be the same. And neither will you. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-429/. Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 02:21 The 2 Things Keeping You Stuck 07:34 Why It’s So Hard to Change 13:57 How to Learn From Your Mistakes 20:16 How to Stop Feeling Like a Failure 25:16 How to Get Other People to Change 27:37 3 Steps to Help Someone Change 33:28 Why People Don’t Take Your Advice 37:41 How to Deal With Difficult People 43:25 How to Give Feedback That Works 47:47 Do This to Stop Arguments 50:59 How to Support Without Enabling 56:07 A Simple Practice to Build Accountability 59:43 How to Keep Growing Without Burning Out — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Dolly Chughguest
Aug 27, 20261h 4mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:21

    Meet the Guest

    1. MR

      Today, on The Mel Robbins Podcast, how to deal with people who won't change with NYU Stern School of Business professor Dr. Dolly Chugh. She'll teach you how to stop wasting your energy and do this instead. Please help me welcome Dr. Dolly Chugh to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

    2. DC

      I'm so thrilled to be here, Mel. Thank you for having me.

    3. MR

      I'm thrilled that you're here, too, and I know that this topic is going to resonate with the person who's listening right now, and it's going to be incredibly helpful. Could you start, Dr. Chugh, by telling the person who's here with us what could change about their life and their relationships if they take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about dealing with the people in your life that are not changing?

    4. DC

      You're gonna feel lighter. You're gonna feel more hopeful. You're going to see a path, because you're gonna have tools that will help you both when you're trying to make changes in yourself and when you're trying to make changes in other people. You're gonna realize you're not alone in those moments, those messy human moments, and you're gonna drop some of the frustration that you have-

    5. MR

      Hmm

    6. DC

      ... and the expectations that you have of other people.

    7. MR

      I love that. I wanna feel more free.

    8. DC

      Yeah. [laughs]

    9. MR

      I wanna feel lighter. That sounds fantastic, because the people in my life drive me crazy, and the other thing is, is I know that I drive the people-

    10. DC

      Right

    11. MR

      ... in my life crazy.

    12. DC

      Right.

    13. MR

      You know, there's that famous quote, "When you know better, you do better."

    14. DC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      Maya Angelou said that.

    16. DC

      Yeah.

    17. MR

      And I think that's true when you look backwards at the lessons-

    18. DC

      Mm

    19. MR

      ... that you've learned the hard way.

    20. DC

      Hmm.

    21. MR

      But when I think about myself, I will admit that I often know better.

    22. DC

      [laughs] Yeah.

    23. MR

      But I don't do better, and your research-

    24. DC

      Oh

    25. MR

      ... really sits at the heart of knowing better-

    26. DC

      Yeah

    27. MR

      ... but we don't do better.

    28. DC

      Right.

    29. MR

      Why is it-

    30. DC

      Oh, my gosh

  2. 2:21 – 7:34

    The 2 Things Keeping You Stuck

    1. MR

      don't do it.

    2. DC

      There's two key insights that really help me from the science of human behavior here, and I like to think of these insights as understanding our mind as having bodyguards.

    3. MR

      Okay, hold on. Our mind has bodyguards?

    4. DC

      Our mind has these two big bodyguards that are keeping out change and keeping out growth, and here's what those two bodyguards are all about.

    5. MR

      Okay.

    6. DC

      I call, I call one of them energy and one of them ego. Energy bodyguard is trying to preserve my energy. They're trying to make my life as easy as possible, and that means that a lot of what we do is on autopilot. Let me give you an example. I'm gonna snap my fingers, and in that snap of the fingers, you just had 11 million thoughts.

    7. MR

      Wait, what?

    8. DC

      Right.

    9. MR

      11 million?

    10. DC

      Yes. There's-

    11. MR

      No.

    12. DC

      There's, there's a study that says that there is so much of our mind on autopilot, like for example, let's say you had a long day and now you're heading home, you're driving or you're taking a subway or a bus or you're riding the bike or you're, you're walking, and you get home, you walk in the door, and you realize you don't remember anything about that commute home.

    13. MR

      Oh, my God. I know.

    14. DC

      You don't remember red lights or green lights or did you get a seat on the bus. You just did it, 'cause you've done it a million times.

    15. MR

      Well, you know what I think is I literally say to myself, "Oh, my God, what just happened?"

    16. DC

      What just happened?

    17. MR

      "Where was I?"

    18. DC

      Right. But the g- good news is, is that's your body and your brain doing everything it should, conserving energy.

    19. MR

      Meaning what?

    20. DC

      That's the bodyguard putting you on autopilot, letting you do the things you know how to do without having to think too hard about it.

    21. MR

      Okay, got it.

    22. DC

      So I call those little-t thoughts, not-

    23. MR

      Little-t thoughts

    24. DC

      ... cap- not capital-T thoughts.

    25. MR

      Okay.

    26. DC

      Right? And even right now, the fact that you and I can understand each other, that we sort of know which direction to face, that we can detect the temperature in the room and the feeling of our clothes on us, but we're not necessarily big-T thinking about it. So in that snap of the fingers, 11 million little-t thoughts, they say maybe, like, 40 big-T thoughts, actual thoughts, like you're thinking, "What should I say next?" You know, "Is this microphone the correct distance?" All those are big-T thoughts I'm having.

    27. MR

      And these are all happening simultaneously-

    28. DC

      All the time

    29. MR

      ... and I'm not even really aware of it.

    30. DC

      We're not even aware of it, because that's the brilliance of being a human being is that we are able to do that, and that's because we have this mental bodyguard that's protecting our energy, and some people refer to it as our unconscious mind is doing a lot of the work. So when we talk about, if we go back to the question of, you know, why when I know something don't I do it?

  3. 7:34 – 13:57

    Why It’s So Hard to Change

    1. DC

      or our ego in the moment.

    2. MR

      So you just explained to me why the people that I love, who I'm worried about-

    3. DC

      Mm

    4. MR

      ... don't take better care of themselves.

    5. DC

      Okay.

    6. MR

      So for example, it takes a lot of energy-

    7. DC

      Yeah

    8. MR

      ... to lift weights, to eat healthy-

    9. DC

      Yeah

    10. MR

      ... to go for a walk-

    11. DC

      Yeah

    12. MR

      ... when, especially when you haven't.

    13. DC

      Right.

    14. MR

      And if your ego and something that you value is, "I'm in control of me. Nobody tells me what to do."

    15. DC

      Yes.

    16. MR

      My desire for you to now lift weights, 'cause your doctor said so, or to start walking, 'cause I think it's important for you-

    17. DC

      Right

    18. MR

      ... to prevent dementia, or for you to eat healthy, 'cause I'm worried about the weight you're putting on, I'm now threatening one of your core values-

    19. DC

      Yes

    20. MR

      ... which is, "I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do."

    21. DC

      Wow, you just nailed it. And that's- that's called agency. It's a, it's a fundamental human need, that, "I'm my own person. Don't tell me what to do."

    22. MR

      Now, can you do that to yourself? 'Cause I often feel like I'm such a, whether you call it control freak or rebel-

    23. DC

      Yeah

    24. MR

      ... that I even rebel against my own-

    25. DC

      [laughs]

    26. MR

      ... attempts-

    27. DC

      [laughs]

    28. MR

      ... to make myself-

    29. DC

      Yeah

    30. MR

      ... you know, like, like, you know what I'm saying?

  4. 13:57 – 20:16

    How to Learn From Your Mistakes

    1. MR

      for bringing that.

    2. DC

      Absolutely.

    3. MR

      So what is the biggest mistake that you make when you know what you should be doing, but you're still not doing it?

    4. DC

      That we forget that you can't learn from a mistake you're still defending.

    5. MR

      Oh, wait, what do you mean by that?

    6. DC

      That we get in a space of trying to prove ourselves rather than trying to improve ourselves.

    7. MR

      Hold on. Did you hear that? She said we get into a space where we try to prove ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

    8. DC

      Right.

    9. MR

      Oh, my gosh. I do that. I can think of a million examples where I-

    10. DC

      Me too

    11. MR

      ... got very defensive.

    12. DC

      Me too.

    13. MR

      Proving why this is too hard, or why I couldn't follow through tonight, or why-

    14. DC

      Me too

    15. MR

      ... we get into a space of proving ourselves instead of trying to improve ourselves.

    16. DC

      Right. And by the way, Mel, the people we're trying to prove ourselves to are sometimes other people, and defending, but sometimes it's ourselves. It's, "Why didn't I get that right? Why didn't I know how to do that? Why am I so bad at this? Why can't I be as good as so-and-so at it? Why isn't my life like other persons?"

    17. MR

      Mm. How do you get out of that trap?

    18. DC

      One thing I like to say is that when I [laughs] say I study the psychology of good people, it's a little bit of a gotcha. Because my work focuses on helping people let go of being good people, whatever that means to them, going to the gym, being nice to neighbors, whatever it is, that you need to let go of it in order to become better people.

    19. MR

      What does that mean? 'Cause aren't we supposed to be good people?

    20. DC

      Of course we are, and the problem is, as soon as we decide we're a good person, we're trying to prove it instead of trying to improve towards it. And this game never ends. Life goes on day after day, throwing new challenges, new curve balls at us. Even if you thought you c- did it today, you crushed it today, tomorrow's a new day. And so getting in a space where we realize this is an ongoing process for ourself and for other people, we're not trying to prove we've already figured it out, we're trying to improve on a ongoing basis. We're not trying to see ourself as good people.

    21. MR

      Mm.

    22. DC

      Especially things that are kind of got some moral charge to it, like, um, are you nice to your children? Are you a good parent? Like, those things have a lot of moral charge to them, and we feel like we should just know how to do it, and you should just know how to do it. That's not good enough. These are skills, and skills require practice and improvement. So good people things we tend to view as, like, it's a belief you should have. It's a value you should have. This, this... How can you not know how to do that? How can you... Why do you keep interrupting me? If you cared, you wouldn't interrupt me. That's like a, "You should just know how to do it."

    23. MR

      Mm.

    24. DC

      "Prove it to me," as opposed to you're trying to get better at it, and it's a skill that you're working on.

    25. MR

      Well, I can see certainly how I hold this over other people's head.

    26. DC

      Yeah. [laughs]

    27. MR

      That if you're not doing the things that I wish you would do-

    28. DC

      Mm

    29. MR

      ... you're not a good person.

    30. DC

      Mm-hmm.

  5. 20:16 – 25:16

    How to Stop Feeling Like a Failure

    1. MR

      you hold yourself to.

    2. DC

      Right.

    3. MR

      And I would love to have you, Dr. Chugh, just speak directly to the person who feels weary when you say constantly improving, because there's a nuance to what you're saying.

    4. DC

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      You're not saying you gotta be constantly pushing yourself, constantly improving, constantly going to the gym, constantly-

    6. DC

      No

    7. MR

      ... trying to do better, constantly grinding it out because you're not doing enough.

    8. DC

      Right.

    9. MR

      It's a different mindset.

    10. DC

      Yeah.

    11. MR

      And I'd love to have you put that in context, because I'd be willing to bet that the person that's listening and is making time to be with us right now is probably exhausted.

    12. DC

      Totally.

    13. MR

      They're trying very hard. They end the day feeling like they didn't do enough. And as you're starting to have this realization like I am, that, wow, I'm, like, probably the hardest person in the world on myself, 'cause I'm trying to be a good person.

    14. DC

      Right.

    15. MR

      But I've defined this in a way that's impossible to reach.

    16. DC

      Exactly.

    17. MR

      So I always have at least 10 things at the end of the day-

    18. DC

      Right

    19. MR

      ... that make me feel like a bad person-

    20. DC

      Right

    21. MR

      ... 'cause I didn't get to them.

    22. DC

      Right. Right.

    23. MR

      So how do you want us to really think about what that means-

    24. DC

      Right

    25. MR

      ... going from proving that you're good-

    26. DC

      Right

    27. MR

      ... and then annihilating yourself at the end of the, "I'm bad, I didn't do this," and, "Argh, uh..."

    28. DC

      Exactly.

    29. MR

      Versus this change in your mindset that you're just constantly trying to improve.

    30. DC

      Exactly.

  6. 25:16 – 27:37

    How to Get Other People to Change

    1. MR

      stranger in front of me.

    2. DC

      So, I mean, the question is, how do we help others change?

    3. MR

      I love how you said help.

    4. DC

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      'Cause I'm trying to force, manipulate-

    6. DC

      Well, that's actually interesting

    7. MR

      ... control, bribe, whatever it takes.

    8. DC

      So one of the things we talk about, [laughs]

    9. MR

      [laughs]

    10. DC

      I mean, I'm all for bribery. Um, my, my, uh, my most effective parenting technique to date in a couple of decades has been that I sing to my kids. They don't-

    11. MR

      How is that effective?

    12. DC

      Because I'm a terrible singer, and they really don't like it. So if I'm saying, "Do this, do that," nobody's listening. I'm not getting anyone's attention, and then I, I, I start singing You Are My Sunshine. I could do it for your audience, but you'd lose listeners.

    13. MR

      Let's hear it.

    14. DC

      You are my sunshine. See, it's not-

    15. MR

      Oh, my, now I wanna pick up my stuff-

    16. DC

      [laughs]

    17. MR

      ... and clean my room. I'm like, "Anything, Mom, but stop."

    18. DC

      And then, and I'll keep going till they do the thing.

    19. MR

      Oh, my God. I love this.

    20. DC

      Isn't that good?

    21. MR

      Why does that work?

    22. DC

      It's a little bit of a pull versus a push, right? So a push is saying, "Go clean your room." A pull is creating the conditions in which you wanna go clean your room.

    23. MR

      'Cause they wanna leave you.

    24. DC

      Yeah.

    25. MR

      Oh, wow.

    26. DC

      So, and this is, this is a big, this is a big-

    27. MR

      That feels more like a repel, honestly, but-

    28. DC

      I mean, it might be. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. Um, but the push versus pull distinction is a really important one-

    29. MR

      Okay

    30. DC

      ... with, um, the leadership classes I teach, that when we're trying to influence others, sometimes we do need to push, and that means we're directing them. We are telling them. We are forcing them. That's a push technique, and we see it in the workplace. We see it in our families. It has its place. We tend to overuse it, though. And so, um, pull techniques are more about creating conditions under which people wanna do it on their own.

  7. 27:37 – 33:28

    3 Steps to Help Someone Change

    1. DC

      longer as well.

    2. MR

      Realistically, what can you do to help someone you love change?

    3. DC

      Realistically, you can model change. You can invite change. You can reward change. But you cannot make anyone change. Let me give an example of what I mean by model change because I think it's an important one. There's a, a, a story that may or may not be true, but it's sort of taken on epic fable proportions. Mahatma Gandhi, who was one of the, um, leaders of the nonviolence movement in India in the 1940s, he became seen as the, the person that people would go to for wisdom, and in this fable that's told about him, he would receive people who would travel by foot hundreds of miles to come to him and ask for his wisdom. And one day, this family came to him with their young child and said, uh, "Gandhi ji, we have traveled a long way. We've waited a long time for our turn, and we need you to tell our son, who's withering away, he must eat food and not just sugar. All he will eat is sugar." Gandhi listened to them. He heard their request. He nodded with understanding, and then he said, "Please come back in two weeks." Not the response they were looking for. They had traveled a long way. They had waited a long time. Their son is withering away. Wait two weeks? Why? But out of deference, they go back home. Two weeks later, they make the long journey. They wait the long time for their turn. They arrive at his doorstep. He, he... They say, "Now, please, Gandhi ji, will you help us with our son? He's withering away. He's only eating sugar." And Gandhi ji said to them, "My son, you must stop eating sugar." Well, that seems like a bit of a buzzkill after all of that. And they say to him, "Thank you, thank you, but with all due respect, why couldn't you say that two weeks ago?" And he said, "Because two weeks ago, I was still eating sugar." So the first step when we realistically wanna help someone change is to think about what we can do ourselves to model change.

    4. MR

      Hmm.

    5. DC

      Now, that doesn't mean... I'm not trying to add to our exhausted plate. I'm just trying to say, in all the work we're doing ourselves, can we make it visible to others that we know this is hard, and this is what we are struggling with? So if your partner's snapping at the kids, you keep telling them, "Stop snapping at the kids," and they keep snapping, they get defensive, what if you talked about the struggles you have sometimes with snapping at the kids? What if you mention that you noticed when you have a snack in the car before you come in to the house, it helps you take a moment?

    6. MR

      Mm.

    7. DC

      What if you talked about the, the things that you've tried that haven't worked, and how embarrassed you are by the fact that they haven't worked?

    8. MR

      That's a super helpful, uh, story and example. The second thing that you said that we could do is invite change. What does that look like?

    9. DC

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      What's an example of inviting change?

    11. DC

      It's, it's... Inviting means creating the conditions under which someone can do it and not feel self-conscious about it, right? So let's say your partner says, uh, you know, doesn't say, but let's say they are going to go ahead and, like, "All right, so I'm not supposed to snap at the kids, I'm supposed to... But even though I'm tired, um, maybe what I'll do is try to tell a story about my day, you know? Or I'll try to, um, you know, try to be funny, and, like, try to say something relatable," whatever. And when they do that, you know, they come off a little awkward. The story goes on too long. They, they don't quite get it. The kids are tuning out. If I, in that moment, say, "What are you doing? Like, this isn't helping," that's not inviting change.

    12. MR

      Mm.

    13. DC

      Because they just did something. They changed something. It didn't work, but they tried. So inviting change is allowing the unlearning to work through.

    14. MR

      Oh, so it's recognizing tiny attempts?

    15. DC

      Yes.

    16. MR

      And having grace.

    17. DC

      Yes.

    18. MR

      And just r- kinda really understanding, oh, this is the unlearning process.

    19. DC

      Exactly.

    20. MR

      They're stumbling through it.

    21. DC

      This is what it looks like. This is what it feels like. They're not gonna all of a sudden know how not to snap at the kids.

    22. MR

      And what does reward look like?

    23. DC

      Uh-

    24. MR

      You said we could reward change.

    25. DC

      Absolutely

    26. MR

      ... what does that look like?

    27. DC

      It's, it, in ways, yeah, depending on the situation, whether you do it publicly or privately, it's in whatever the love language is in your scenario, telling them you noticed it, you saw it, you appreciate it. You know, if you think it worked, you know, sincerely tell them, "I think that really worked. You know, I, I saw, I saw our daughter light up-

    28. MR

      Mm

    29. DC

      ... when you, when you gave her that moment of attention. You know, thank you for hearing me. I know that was hard.

  8. 33:28 – 37:41

    Why People Don’t Take Your Advice

    1. DC

      You must be tired."

    2. MR

      You know, how do you know when your advice is a complete waste of time? For example-

    3. DC

      Mm

    4. MR

      ... you have a friend that-

    5. DC

      [laughs]

    6. MR

      ... keeps dating people that disrespect her.

    7. DC

      Ooh.

    8. MR

      They're complaining about it, or they complain aba- about their partner of eight years, but they never act on your advice.

    9. DC

      Right. Stop giving advice.

    10. MR

      Stop giving advice?

    11. DC

      Stop giving advice.

    12. MR

      How do you know when it's time to stop giving advice?

    13. DC

      Yeah. So I like the WAIT rule.

    14. MR

      What's the WAIT rule?

    15. DC

      Why am I talking?

    16. MR

      Oh, WAIT. Why am I talking?

    17. DC

      Am I talking? Right. So I didn't come up with this. I'm, I, I don't think we know exactly who came up with it. It was popularized by Michael Bungay Stanier in his book, The Coaching Habit. The WAIT rule reminds us that when we're talking, especially if we're talking about someone else's problem, we're almost always talking at them.

    18. MR

      Mm.

    19. DC

      Which means that agency, that sense of I am my own boss, we're taking it away. So the first question is, have they even asked for our advice? Most of us want to help the people we love solve their problems. That doesn't necessarily mean they asked us for help to solve their problems. [laughs] And, um, another great little r- rule of thumb I've heard is to ask people, when we feel tempted to solve their problems, um, this one probably won't work in the workplace, but I think it works really well in families, "Do you wanna be heard, hugged, or helped?"

    20. MR

      Mm.

    21. DC

      And then my addition to that rule is, "or high-fived?" Heard means they need to vent. In your example, the partner needs to vent. Hugged means they need to feel loved. Helped, they need my advice, and they want it. They're asking for it. And the high five piece that I've added is sometimes a lot of us want people to notice how hard we're trying.

    22. MR

      Mm.

    23. DC

      How exhausted we are, how well we're doing. And especially as women, we're not really given permission to just say that's what we need, so we kind of keep dropping the breadcrumbs, hoping someone will high-five us. So heard, hugged, helped, or high-fived. So friend is complaining they're never taking my advice. My first question is, "Did they ever ask for it, the advice?" The second, let's say they are asking for the advice, and they're not taking it, to name that. Say, "I know you've asked for my advice. I'm really flattered by that, and I'm always happy to offer it, but I gotta ask you a question. When you ask for my advice, do you mean you wanna be helped, or do you wanna be heard? Do you want to be hugged? Are you in pain? Do you wanna be high-fived for the fact that you're a great partner, and you're not getting the attention you want at home? Can you tell me a little bit more about what you mean by advice?"

    24. MR

      This is so helpful, and I love those four categories because I think when I'm in distress or I'm emotionally flooded, I often don't know what I need.

    25. DC

      Yeah.

    26. MR

      And so when somebody asks those four things, I might even surprise myself. One mistake I've absolutely made is when somebody comes to me and they're feeling down-

    27. DC

      Yeah

    28. MR

      ... I make the mistake of trying to immediately lift them back up.

    29. DC

      Ah.

    30. MR

      And-

  9. 37:41 – 43:25

    How to Deal With Difficult People

    1. DC

      answer I receive is heard.

    2. MR

      Let's talk about difficult people.

    3. DC

      Okay.

    4. MR

      So let's talk about somebody who is always crossing the line.

    5. DC

      Yeah.

    6. MR

      I have someone in my life that just has this love of the jab.

    7. DC

      Mm.

    8. MR

      I don't know if it's conversational style, but I bet as, as you're reflecting upon difficult people in your life, that there are just some people that when they are there, you're on edge.

    9. DC

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      You're just waiting for it.

    11. DC

      [laughs]

    12. MR

      You're waiting for the political mark. You're waiting for the dismiss. You're waiting for them to say the passive-aggressive thing.

    13. DC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      How do you handle somebody-

    15. DC

      Yeah

    16. MR

      ... that is insulting-

    17. DC

      Right

    18. MR

      ... or difficult?

    19. DC

      I think a lot of people can relate to what you're describing, and, and sometimes it's, it's at the level of, um, you're dreading the family gathering because that uncle is, is, is gonna jab and often jab down.

    20. MR

      Yes.

    21. DC

      Punch down. And by the way, they want you to take the bait. Now, listen, we do need to be careful because that person may be doing real harm to people in the room and to people out in the world. But what we can do in that moment with that person is rather than giving them more oxygen by going back and forth-

    22. MR

      Yes

    23. DC

      ... we can take some of the oxygen out in the moment.

    24. MR

      How do you take the oxygen out?

    25. DC

      You can say... So he says the thing. You can say, "Ouch," or, "Whoa," or, "My gosh, you don't look old enough to be that old-fashioned." Now, realize what I'm not doing is inviting an argument. What I am doing is telling everyone else in the room, "That's not okay what we just heard."

    26. MR

      The only thing that I've ever said is something that I once heard Jefferson Fisher say, and it works like a charm, which is, "Did you actually mean to say that out loud?"

    27. DC

      Uh, yes, I like that, too.

    28. MR

      Because you are... 'Cause what are they gonna be like, "Yes, I meant to sound like a dickhead," and like, you know, like-

    29. DC

      [laughs]

    30. MR

      And no, they... there's kind of a weird silence thing-

  10. 43:25 – 47:47

    How to Give Feedback That Works

    1. MR

      job on this.

    2. DC

      Okay.

    3. MR

      So we have a, a bunk room at our house in Vermont, and one of the things that I love more than anything is that our son, Oakley, who's 21, is home from college, and he has... He and his best friends from high school have a window-washing and odd job business. It's year four. Shout out, Sparker Boys. And they are employing, like, 15 kids. Like, they're cranking it out. And they hang out at our house a lot, and I fricking love it.

    4. DC

      Okay.

    5. MR

      And I am very clear with them, "I'm not your maid."

    6. DC

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MR

      "I'm not your mother."

    8. DC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MR

      "You are always welcome here, and the fridge is stocked, and the door is open-"

    10. DC

      Mm-hmm

    11. MR

      "... and the arms are open for a hug."

    12. DC

      Aw.

    13. MR

      "But if you turn me into your maid-"

    14. DC

      Right

    15. MR

      "... or your mom-"

    16. DC

      Right

    17. MR

      "... you are not gonna be welcome here."

    18. DC

      Right.

    19. MR

      "I work so hard that I do not appreciate coming home from a long day of work and seeing this place looking like a frat house."

    20. DC

      Right.

    21. MR

      And so the other day... And they've normally been really, really good.

    22. DC

      Yeah.

    23. MR

      But the other day, I came home from being gone for eight days.

    24. DC

      Mm.

    25. MR

      And I walked into the bunk room, and it looked like they had been hazing people in there.

    26. DC

      [laughs]

    27. MR

      Like, I, I was just like... And we all know how ha- A bunk bed seems like the most amazing thing in the world until you have to make a bunk bed.

    28. DC

      Oh, right.

    29. MR

      So normally-

    30. DC

      Yeah

  11. 47:47 – 50:59

    Do This to Stop Arguments

    1. MR

      to help?

    2. DC

      I use this when I'm teaching conflict resolution and negotiation classes to my MBA students, and I use this one in my own family and my marriage. It's the one-to-10 rule. The question to ask myself a- and ask someone else, particularly when we disagree on something or I'm asking something of them, like in your example, asking them to do certain things around the home, is, on a scale of one to 10, how important is this?

    3. MR

      Mm.

    4. DC

      10 is the most important. Sometimes what I'm asking for when I'm asking them to hang the things up, the, the hanging up is not the 10. It's the me feeling heard is the 10. Me not being expected to do it for them is the 10. Sometimes maybe the hanging up is a 10. Maybe there are people coming over, and no way am I gonna be judged, 'cause you know I am gonna be the one who's judged when someone comes to our home, by this is how I maintain a home. So maybe it is a 10 in that moment, but it's not always a 10.

    5. MR

      Hmm.

    6. DC

      And I think sometimes the people around us hear everything as a 10 from us.

    7. MR

      And if everything's important, nothing is.

    8. DC

      Exactly. Exactly.

    9. MR

      So you stop and ask yourself, "1 to 10-

    10. DC

      Yeah

    11. MR

      ... and what number am I acting on?"

    12. DC

      Exactly.

    13. MR

      No, I mean it.

    14. DC

      And-

    15. MR

      Which, like, which [laughs] --

    16. DC

      Yeah, and, and if you and the person in your family are having a c- discussion about this thing on the ground right now, on a 1-to-10 scale, how important is it to them that it be dropped on the floor?

    17. MR

      Well, see, I assume it's a one, and that's why I'm offended and it's a 10. Because it's important to me, but it's not important to them, and if it were important to them, they would pick it up. Do, do you see what I'm saying? And this gets back-

    18. DC

      Mm-hmm

    19. MR

      ... to the-

    20. DC

      No, but how-

    21. MR

      I-

    22. DC

      ... important is it to them to not listen to you?

    23. MR

      Oh. Probably a 10.

    24. DC

      Hmm.

    25. MR

      Because their value might be, "I'm my own person, and you don't tell me what to do."

    26. DC

      Right.

    27. MR

      "I've been at college for two years, so I'm now-"

    28. DC

      Exactly

    29. MR

      ... "a, an adult."

    30. DC

      "And this is my space. And when I come home from college and I don't feel like this is my space anymore, and I don't feel like these are my rules anymore, need something to be mine."

  12. 50:59 – 56:07

    How to Support Without Enabling

    1. DC

      effort.

    2. MR

      I love that. How do you know when you're supporting somebody versus enabling them?

    3. DC

      [laughs] Oh, gosh. Oh, Mel, this feels like a dream sequence because, uh, I feel like this is a central growth area of my life and, like-

    4. MR

      Adult children.

    5. DC

      Yes

    6. MR

      ... is that what you're about to talk about?

    7. DC

      And, and like-

    8. MR

      Yes

    9. DC

      ... you know, you're, the universe is trolling me, and I, I've learned so much from your work on this very issue. So let me, let me step a little bit outside of my, like, expertise as a social psychologist and more into just my lived experience-

    10. MR

      Okay

    11. DC

      ... of seeing how the science of growth works. My definition of hell on earth is watching someone I love suffer and not being able to do anything about it, being helpless. I honestly don't think there's any greater pain in this world. And I, I know that a lotta people have been in this position where in an instant we would take their pain, we would take their suffering, we would take their distress, but all we can do is bear witness to it, and that's what feels like hell. Sometimes what we think is supporting other people is us trying to deal with that feeling of hell.

    12. MR

      Hmm.

    13. DC

      We're just trying to lower the pain of it by doing something. And you know, while it might make us feel slightly less helpless, it's probably making things worse.

    14. MR

      Why does it make it worse if you're providing the financial support, or you're giving a place to live, or you're doing the things that we wanna do because we're trying, I think you're right, to feel like we're doing everything we can-

    15. DC

      Right

    16. MR

      ... to support this person? But actually, that soft cushion of support is keeping the person from hitting the edge-

    17. DC

      Hmm

    18. MR

      ... of their experience-

    19. DC

      Right

    20. MR

      ... and truly having to reckon with the consequences of the decisions that they're making-

    21. DC

      Right

    22. MR

      ... and the patterns that they haven't been unwilling to yur, to unlearn yet or haven't been able to.

    23. DC

      Yeah. I think that the way you described it is exactly my sense of it as well. I'm also centering my own needs in that moment. I don't mean to. I love this person so much. That's why this is happening, but by me doing the things that make me feel better, it's a little harder for me to see what they need.

    24. MR

      Have you figured out, and 'cause I know this is deeply personal for all of us-

    25. DC

      Mm-hmm

    26. MR

      ... and nobody can actually tell you when is the appropriate time to keep doing and offering support, and paying for things, and stepping in because that's the thing that makes you feel-

    27. DC

      Mm-hmm

    28. MR

      ... like you're doing what you can do, and that's the thing that is the only part of this that you can control.

    29. DC

      Right.

    30. MR

      And when is it that you say, "I recognize that this person does not wanna change, they are not ready to change, and I am a participant at this point-

  13. 56:07 – 59:43

    A Simple Practice to Build Accountability

    1. DC

      to shout out a classmate. Again, it's often things that, the things that they shout out, "Uh, I really appreciated when Mel asked that question, because I was thinking it, too, but I was really afraid to ask it."

    2. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. DC

      Uh, and the person who asked the question may not have thought twice about asking it, or they may have felt a lot of anxiety about asking it, and now that they hear that someone else was also sitting with that question, they feel less anxiety that was that question a dumb question.

    4. MR

      You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna take a photo of those bunk beds when those boys make it, and I'm gonna put it in the group text-

    5. DC

      Shout it out

    6. MR

      ... and shout it out.

    7. DC

      I love it.

    8. MR

      "Great job, guys."

    9. DC

      I love it. I love it. And then a own it is, um, taking ownership for a way in which, you know, you didn't, you didn't kinda get it right that day.

    10. MR

      Mm.

    11. DC

      And by get it right, I mean someone might say, um, "Listen, I wanna own it. I had my phone out a lot during class today. I just had trouble being engaged, and I'm really sorry, and I know it kind of affects everyone else when an, someone takes their phone out." Or, "I was late today. My small group had to get going without me and then spend time catching me up. I didn't manage my time right. I'm sorry."

    12. MR

      I love the own it.

    13. DC

      I love the own it. And I, I have to say, like, in class, one thing I was thinking about this coming semester is we get a lot more shout-outs than own its, which makes sense. I mean, there's a lot more good than, than not going on, but I think I need to do more own its myself-

    14. MR

      Mm-hmm

    15. DC

      ... to sort of motivate more own its from my students as well, which is another thing we know about being a good boss, is, uh, we want to be bringing out the best in others, but doing it in a way that shows we're taking accountability for when we're not at our best.

    16. MR

      Well, one of the things that you've taught us is that when it comes to trying to change other people-

    17. DC

      Mm-hmm

    18. MR

      ... you can model, you can invite and reward, and shout-outs are really... I'm really good at shout-outs. I notice all the things going well, to a fault.

    19. DC

      Okay.

    20. MR

      And if you over-compliment people-

    21. DC

      Right

    22. MR

      ... then you create an inability to hear criticism-

    23. DC

      Oh

    24. MR

      ... or to hear feedback.

    25. DC

      Right.

    26. MR

      And so the own it piece, as a parent, as a colleague-

    27. DC

      Mm-hmm

    28. MR

      ... as a friend, owning it where you didn't show up-

    29. DC

      Mm

    30. MR

      ... where you flubbed something, where you threw your crap in the entry after yelling at everybody else-

  14. 59:43 – 1:04:17

    How to Keep Growing Without Burning Out

    1. MR

      Um, if the person listening takes just one action-

    2. DC

      Mm

    3. MR

      ... what is the most important thing to do after you have listened to this episode, other than sharing it with everybody you wanna change?

    4. DC

      [laughs] I love it.

    5. MR

      If we're gonna let Dr. Chugh change 'em.

    6. DC

      I would say I bet everyone in your audience considers themself a lifelong learner. What would it mean to be a lifelong learner and a lifelong unlearner?

    7. MR

      Oh. Like, just simply by listening-

    8. DC

      Yeah

    9. MR

      ... today-

    10. DC

      Yeah

    11. MR

      ... and investing the time in yourself, you learned so much. And having that, I'm a lifelong learner, I need to l- unlearn some things-

    12. DC

      Right

    13. MR

      ... to continue to grow, and to not prove anything, but as you said, to be-

    14. DC

      Improve

    15. MR

      ... improving-

    16. DC

      Right

    17. MR

      ... the way that I feel about myself and the way that I approach life and the way that I connect with other people.

    18. DC

      Right.

    19. MR

      Amazing. Dr. Chugh, what are your parting words?

    20. DC

      I would say that hope and energy lies in growth, to just lean into that. There's all this pressure on us. We're so exhausted. We're being pulled in every direction, and sometimes that makes us feel like Ugh, there's no more to do. I cannot do anymore. And I promise you that when we allow ourselves into this space, this space of growth, of improving rather than proving, we will feel more hope and more energy.

    21. MR

      You promised at the beginning, Dr. Chugh, that we would feel lighter.

    22. DC

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      And we would feel a little bit more in control.

    24. DC

      Yeah.

    25. MR

      And I feel that after talking to you.

    26. DC

      You do?

    27. MR

      Yeah. I, I wanna thank you, because I learned so much today. It was... The conversation was not exactly how I thought it would be.

    28. DC

      Interesting.

    29. MR

      Even though we put a tremendous amount of upfront-

    30. DC

      Yes

Episode duration: 1:04:18

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