Modern WisdomHow To Work Out What You Want To Want From Life | Kyle Eschenroeder | Modern Wisdom Podcast 189
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:16
Why this conversation now: reassessing values and desires during COVID
Chris introduces Kyle and the core question from Kyle’s essay: “What do you want to want?” Kyle frames the pandemic as a forcing function that makes many people reevaluate default values and desires more consciously.
- •Chris discovered Kyle’s long-form blog post and wants to unpack it on the show
- •The question targets the desires beneath our surface-level wants
- •COVID/lockdowns create a natural moment to audit priorities
- •Goal: make desire-shaping more strategic and skillful
- 2:16 – 3:44
Why “what you want to want” matters: avoiding regret and the ‘spectacle’ life
Kyle argues that default desires often steer people toward lives they didn’t deliberately choose, setting them up for regret. He uses literary and philosophical references to show how seductive misaligned desire can be.
- •The big reason: don’t end up living a life you regret
- •Emerson: life should be “for itself,” not a spectacle for others
- •Default desires can move you away from what you truly value
- •Desires shape long-term life trajectory more than moment-to-moment intentions
- 3:44 – 5:37
Memetic desire and chasing the wrong thing: Girard, Thiel, and Proust
Kyle explains memetic desire—wanting what others want—and how it can hijack life choices. He illustrates the trap with Proust’s painful realization of pursuing someone who “wasn’t even my type.”
- •Memetic desire: desires are socially copied, not purely self-generated
- •Peter Thiel’s career pivot as an example of noticing misaligned desire
- •Proust quote shows how intense desire can be misdirected
- •Unexamined desires can take you places you don’t want to be
- 5:37 – 11:54
Comfort traps, distrust, and the ‘path of least resistance’ that desires create
Kyle adds that social distrust and modern comfort can make people afraid to desire anything ambitious or meaningful. He introduces the idea that desires carve a ‘path of least resistance,’ making small shifts in desire compound into big life changes.
- •Some people retreat into immediate comfort rather than long-term aims
- •Reassessing desires can rekindle healthier motivation
- •Robert Fritz: we tend to follow the path our desires carve
- •If desires are well-shaped, you can trust yourself more and access flow
- 11:54 – 18:51
What should we want? Self-reliance, engagement, and ‘cheap dopamine’ as the modern devil
Chris and Kyle pivot from ‘why’ to ‘what’—what desires are worth cultivating—while emphasizing the difficulty and long time horizon of rewiring desire. Kyle offers heuristics: aim for nourishment in the long run and beware ‘cheap dopamine.’
- •Confucius: desire-training is measured over decades, not weeks
- •Krishnamurti: don’t file ideas away—engage them in real time
- •Nietzsche’s amor fati: wanting what is (to some degree)
- •Naval: “The modern devil is cheap dopamine” (sweets, feeds, validation hits)
- 18:51 – 21:18
Kyle’s four-part framework for desire redesign (and why inversion helps)
Kyle outlines the four major desire-shifts from the essay, built largely through inversion—starting from what feels unhelpful and flipping toward what’s more life-giving. Chris highlights how common these ‘default wants’ are.
- •Fame → doing something meaningful (impact over attention)
- •Extreme wealth → a frugal heart
- •Extraordinary → embrace the ordinary (respect experience)
- •Easy life → desire struggle (or at least embrace it)
- 21:18 – 30:29
Easy life vs. meaningful struggle: stress reappraisal, purpose, and better memories
Kyle makes the case that avoiding struggle can shorten life and reduce meaning, while embracing challenge changes both psychology and physiology. They connect struggle to purpose, post-traumatic growth, and why hard seasons become our best stories.
- •Studies: early retirement correlates with earlier death; effort sustains vitality
- •Kelly McGonigal: stress mindset changes the body’s chemical response
- •Post-traumatic growth is often driven by interpretation/mindset
- •Frankl: meaning comes from work, love, and suffering well
- 30:29 – 42:00
Wanting to be somebody vs. doing something: the addiction and fragility of fame
They examine attention as a valuable modern currency while warning that fame-for-fame creates dependence on public opinion. Kyle argues impact-first creates a sturdier foundation; Chris adds firsthand lessons from reality TV notoriety.
- •Adam Smith: public admiration can make other pleasures “sicken and decay”
- •Fame makes happiness hostage to other people’s whims and scapegoating cycles
- •A great story to watch/read is not necessarily a good life to live
- •Chris’s Love Island experience: ‘gifted’ fame is hollow and unstable
- 42:00 – 45:20
Social media incentives: playing the game without becoming the game
Chris and Kyle discuss how modern platforms reward shallow signals, tempting creators to optimize for visibility rather than substance. The key distinction is intentionality: using attention tactically to support the work vs. craving it for identity.
- •High-effort valuable content can underperform compared to attention bait
- •Seduction of ‘be somebody’ metrics (likes, views, followers)
- •Marketing/attention is a tool; fame as a self-image is the trap
- •Programming desires means knowing why you’re playing the game
- 45:20 – 52:25
Extreme wealth vs. a frugal heart: money as abstract happiness and gasoline for the trip
Kyle argues that chasing extreme wealth often substitutes for concrete fulfillment and can distort morality. He reframes money as a means—like gas on a road trip—and advocates cultivating enjoyment of low-cost, high-meaning experiences.
- •Schopenhauer: money as “human happiness in the abstract”
- •Thiel: definite vs. indefinite optimism; optionality without vision becomes a trap
- •Wealth obsession can loosen moral constraints and invite sycophancy
- •Tim O’Reilly: money is gasoline—important, but not the purpose of the journey
- 52:25 – 57:39
Lockdown as a frugality amplifier: learning to see beauty in small things
Chris shares how reduced novelty during lockdown increased his appreciation for ordinary details (trees leafing, garden changes). Kyle echoes the ‘leaf’ attention practice and links sustained attention to discovering richness in the mundane.
- •Reduced novelty can reveal overlooked sources of joy
- •Attention makes ‘boring’ objects become deeply interesting
- •Frugal heart: lower burn rate and increase freedom through simpler pleasures
- •Enjoying more isn’t the same as earning/doing less
- 57:39 – 1:02:30
Extraordinary vs. ordinary: ‘respect your experience’ and the trap of specialness
Kyle argues that craving extraordinariness can disrespect ordinary life and distort how we value ourselves and others. Letting go of specialness frees authenticity and creativity, and paradoxically increases the chance of doing unique work.
- •Western obsession with specialness can create chronic ‘less-than’ feelings
- •Most people want to be special in the same generic ways (fame, wealth, power)
- •Kerouac: “Respect your experience”; Emerson: “Trust thyself”
- •Dropping spectacle-seeking can liberate more authentic, original paths
- 1:02:30 – 1:10:16
Not mediocrity: acceptance as the gateway to change (Rogers)
They address the common objection that embracing the ordinary equals settling. Kyle clarifies it’s about starting from respect and acceptance, then striving from a stable foundation; Chris connects it to achievement without self-worth inflation/deflation.
- •Embracing ordinary ≠ avoiding ambition; it’s about being more yourself
- •Kevin Kelly: find what only you can do; extraordinariness can block discovery
- •Carl Rogers: self-acceptance enables real change
- •Type-A treadmill: achievement doesn’t satisfy if the goalpost always moves
- 1:10:16 – 1:24:22
What Kyle would revise today: more emphasis on nourishment + uncovering ‘true’ desires via shadow work
Kyle reflects on changes since writing the essay, shifting tone from ‘struggle’ toward what’s nourishing and sustainable, especially with age. He introduces practical methods to discover hidden desires: hatred-as-mirror and tracking faint ‘whims’ (veilities).
- •Tonal shift over time: from warrior framing to nourishment/wholesomeness
- •Shadow work: traits you hate in others can reveal rejected parts of yourself
- •Robert Bly’s exercise: identify disliked traits and locate them inwardly
- •Dave Chapman: notice weak wants/whims and test them as clues to true desire
- 1:24:22 – 1:34:56
Making yourself want better things: community design, journaling, and internal scorecards
Kyle closes with leverage points for sustaining change: choose communities that reinforce the desires you want, reflect regularly with a written record, and use internal metrics over external validation. Chris adds podcasts as ‘portable peer groups’ and a childhood-interest prompt for rediscovering authentic wants.
- •Communities shape desire: partner, workplace culture, friends, book clubs
- •Journaling/records expose patterns and keep desire-work honest
- •Internal scorecards (Buffett): measure execution of values, not applause
- •Childhood clues (ages 8–14) can reveal enduring intrinsic interests
