Modern WisdomWhy Nobody is Having Sex Anymore (& why it matters) - Dr Debra Soh
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
130 min read · 25,518 words- 0:00 – 4:13
Is Sex Really On the Decline?
- CWChris Williamson
Is people having less sex a big deal?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It is a big deal. [laughs] Well, ask anyone who's not having sex if it's a big deal. I think they'll tell you, "Yeah, it is a problem." Especially considering that it is young men who are typically in the, their prime and at the peak of their sexual drive. So not only is it, I think, quite frustrating for them, but also when you're in a situation like that where you're struggling and it's not just about the sex, it's also about the connection and the emotional intimacy and the larger feeling of connectedness and community. So, um, Sextinction is very much about the sex recession-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... and the fact that young people, Millennials and Ge- Gen Z in particular, are having less sex than previous generations. And I was skeptical at first. I thought that this talk about the sex recession and sexlessness was overblown. But after I sat down and got a chance to go through the data myself, look at the media reportage, talk to people, and we see consistently with multiple data sets that one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past 12 months, which is a large number of people. And so I was interested with this book, what is taking the place of sex?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And what i- what does that say about where we're headed in the future?
- CWChris Williamson
How different is modern sexual activity to what we understand about the past?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, in terms of, say, the outlets that we have available, so the one question has been is sex really on the decline, or is it that other outlets are taking the place like porn with some masturbation, um, things like OnlyFans or now AI companions? So each of these subjects have a different chapter in the book to themselves and, and myself explaining, trying to understand, um, what the trend is about. Is it convincing? I test them out myself, which was a lot of fun in many cases.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, going through the scientific research in terms of what we do know about these technologies, and then also talking about the evolutionary biology and psychology that is underpinning them. So what makes these technologies alluring to human beings, and why is it that it's potentially dangerous or distracting us from real life sex?
- CWChris Williamson
How different is the amount of sex, person-on-person sex, that modern people are having compared with what we understand about the past?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, everyone across the board is having less sex. So regardless of whether you are married or in a relationship or single, um, it's ac- in Eastern countries, Western countries, basically all developed countries and all age cohorts, but as I mentioned, most, uh, more specifically among young people. But your question earlier about, you know, is it taking the place of potentially masturbation or other outlets or other sexual outlets. Um, and if you look at studies that are asking about adolescent sexuality, so this is a understandably, uh, uncomfortable subject, right, to think about ad- adolescent sexual awakening, but they had parental consent, so it's a legitimate study. And what they found at e- is even among adolescents, they are having lower rates of masturbation and across the board with everyone, less partnered sex, less so less, um, intercourse, less anal sex, less all types of sex, oral sex, um, partner masturbation, I said, solo masturbation as well. So across the board there's been this decline. So it's not that people are just preferring masturbation, although I do think that is something that is happening, especially when we look at pornography and-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... AI girlfriends and boyfriends and that type of thing. But it seems like there's something else. Um, there's a larger phenomenon, and I, I also speak to the role of endocrine disruptors, uh, in one chapter because I think there's something else biologically happening.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's not just that the pie of sexual activity has been redistributed from person-on-person to solo person or person with machine or person with doll or whatever. It's that the overall size of the pie has gotten smaller too. There is less sexual activity happening as a, a, an aggregate.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That seems to be the case. And what I find interesting, as you mentioned with like dolls and robots, with the technology improving over time, I didn't think this was gonna be the case. I always thought people would prefer in-person real life sex, but I'm beginning to think people are actually preferring the solo methods and it's potentially dangerous if it comes to the point where we have these surrogates like robots where you can implant an AI and they are no different from a real life person.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I really think people are eventually going to... Some people will be turning that way, but it's gonna be much more popular than I had anticipated.
- 4:13 – 7:24
When Did the Sex Recession Start?
- CWChris Williamson
When did the sex recession start, in your opinion?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It's been documented for probably the last 30 years or so. Like the '90s is, was when it really started to taper a little bit, but it's been the most, I'd say, prominent in the last 20 years. Um, it- COVID definitely played a role in making things worse, but it was on, it was happening before that. So the internet, I think, is a big part of what's happening, smartphones as well, social media. So sadly, social media was supposed to make us more connected, and it's, uh, if [laughs] anything, seems to have made us more divided.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Even outside of the, the realm of sexuality. I think in terms of politically, in terms of men and women, in terms of even subcultures on the internet, just everyone seems to be fighting with each other and hating each other.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, so I think that's feeding into it as well. There's this larger like political, um, hatred that's happening between men and women that's also fomenting this decline in sex because if you hate the opposite sex, it's gonna be very difficult to want to have a relationship with them or to date them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. I had some stats I wanted to read out to you. One in eight 26-year-olds are a virgin. 24% had no sex in the past year, about double the rate of 20, uh, 2010. Among men from 18 to 24, around one in three report no sexual activity in the past year. 26% of US adults reported no sex in 2021. 37% of adults having weekly sex is down from 55% in 1990. 37% weekly down from 55%. 37% of Gen Z had no sex in the last month versus 19% of Millennials. So even when we're talking Millennials haven't got it, you know, there's a big jump again. 48% of married couples had no sex in the past month, and the, uh, Dead Bedroom subreddit is just cranking-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... at the moment. But this, this is my favorite one. This is my favorite one by far. Survey of Gen Z found 67% would prioritize a good night's sleep over sex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised
- CWChris Williamson
You like a good night's sleep?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, [laughs] that too. But the fact that, yeah, this is such a common trend, and it started-- I mean, 2016 was when the first really big study came out showing this. At, at the time I thought, "This is probably a fluke. It's probably a one-time thing." But more and more, it just consistently, right? It's like so many, so many data sources are showing the same thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It's very concerning. I do think mental health is another big part of it, right? When people are... I think people are very exhausted, right? Day-to-day life. But it's also lacking prioritization of sex. These other replacements for sex are taking the place because they're easier.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And then globally, five percent of people are depressed right now. So if you're depressed or you're anxious, like Gen Z is, is, uh... Half of Gen Z has a diagnosed mental disorder, and of them, 90% have anxiety. There's a lot of anxious Gen Z-ers. And so if you're anxious and depressed, your last thing you're gonna wanna do is go out and meet people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Sit down, have a date, potentially face rejection, have to be entertaining, you know, loss of motivation, feeling very self-conscious, all of this stuff. So like it's multifaceted in terms of, I think, all of the factors that are leading people to decide instead, "You know, I'd rather just stay at home and swipe on apps, even if I'm not meeting anybody," or look at-
- CWChris Williamson
Sleep.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, sleep.
- CWChris Williamson
Or sleep.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- 7:24 – 16:26
Why is Hypergamy Shifting?
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening with hypergamy?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hypergamy has taken on a life of its own, I think, in internet culture. So it's this, i- from a research perspective or scientific perspective, it's the idea that women tend to want to date or marry men who are at the same level of success or who are more successful than they are. So w-women typically marry up. And so yes, this is true. I think in some ways it's gone a little bit off the rails because, you know, I write in Sextinction about three sixes rule. So the idea that women look for men who are six feet or taller, who make six figures or more, and who have a six-inch penis. Can I say penis on your podcast? [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
You can say penis if you'd like.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Every other, every other me-media outlet I've been like, "Is it okay if I say this?" You can bleep it out.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, or manhood. So basically, if a man does not meet those criteria, he's not considered worthy of your time in, say, the internet dating culture for women.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And I do... Like, I mean, none of those things really correlate with success in a relationship or marriage. So when you do the calculations, as I have, you know, it comes down to like this tiny, tiny percentage, and then you have to also take into a-account, is he nice to you? Do you have chemistry? Do you have things in common? Can you have a conversation? Does your conversation last more than like five seconds, you know? So like the more important factors whittle it down even smaller, to even smaller of a percentage. So I think women who are abiding by these criteria may be missing, uh, the bigger picture.
- CWChris Williamson
How many women do you think are abiding by the three sixes rule?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So it's interesting because when you look at the internet and what's on social media, this is something that women are really pushing forward. I q- I question, but at the same time, having talked to a lot of men about what dating is like nowadays, they, from what I've been told, women have really unrealistic standards in terms of what they're looking for.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But I would also say, you know, social media has made men want to date like super hot, you know, women who may or may not look like their photos, may be super photo, uh, photo edited and, you know, really perfect looking, but may or may not look like that in real life or might have a ton of procedures, as I have a chapter on plastic surgery. So I think both sexes have very unrealistic expectations of what they want. Um, but like anything, like evolutionary psychology and biology is not prescriptive. It's not saying this is what you should do. It's just basically generalizing or noticing trends in behavior or that explains mating psychology. And like anything, the internet takes it and just like runs away with it.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know. I... M-my favorite place for doing mating research is the pool at Soho House here in Austin.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, it honestly, it's, it's fucking ground zero for looking at mating dynamics. And, um, w- uh, y- a lot of the time I'd be there with friends and, and there'd be a group of girls on the bed next to us, and they'd, you know, be 24 or something, and they're paying for a Soho House membership, and it's a couple of grand a year, so they're probably educated and earning well or whatever. They have never said, "Oh, it's because of the size of some guy's penis." Now, you could say, uh, they, um, wouldn't want to publicly state that. That's kind of a bit uncouth. That's gonna make them seem a little bit silly. The data that I saw from Mack and Murphy last, he was sat in that seat, suggests that if you're a guy with a six-inch erect penis, you're in like the 97th percentile. So it's a, it's bigger than basically any woman has ever seen.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I, I get the sense that that's not an issue. The six-pack abs, if you switch it out for that-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... which is a guy that's sort of muscular and in good condition, I could see that a little bit more. I think, I think if women actually saw like full six-inch penises more, they would actually be like, uh, I mean, 98th percentile.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, yeah, 'cause the average penis is five inches.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But what's interesting is most women say they want a six-inch penis. Most men think women want a seven-inch penis.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] And most men think that they have a six-inch penis probably.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Most men are actually harder on themselves. That, I didn't mean to-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, they have a-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I didn't mean to be-
- CWChris Williamson
They think they have a four-inch penis.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They have a five-inch penis.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- 16:26 – 22:39
Is Hypergamy Tilting the Dating Market?
- CWChris Williamson
there. Because I, I, I'd be interested to know how much hypergamy plays a role when it comes to a one-night stand.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, okay. So that's a huge thesis of my book, this idea that because women are becoming more educated, more financially successful than men, they have fewer suitable vi- uh, bachelors to choose from. So what you find is that very successful men-
- CWChris Williamson
Tall girl problem.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] Well, I, I need to coin my own term for this.
- CWChris Williamson
It's fine.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] And I'll go on CNN and, and-
- CWChris Williamson
And then mis- misquote it. Call it something else. Call it something else, and then you and Scott can have a fucking battle to the end of time to work out who can misquote me. It's fine.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] So what happens, as you're saying, is that there's this smaller pool of very successful men who have their pick of the lot, who don't, aren't a-- they're disincentivized in terms of settling down.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So if they want, I mean, they can have multiple marriages in a row. You will see this happening, so you can't have, you know, polygyny, but what you have is multiple marriages in a row. So they'll marry someone, have children, divorce her, have another marriage, have children-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... divorce her, go on.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, and then what happens is, with men's, uh, dual mating strategy is that, you know, you have long-term choices and short-term options. And so the women who fall into the short-term bucket, um, may erroneously think that they ha- they are one of the long-term options.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But men very much, when they meet someone or meet a woman, they choose which bucket she's going to go into, and she's-- there's not much chance of a crossover.
- CWChris Williamson
Madonna-whore complex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So in terms of hypergamy, um, and how to fix it, I think getting rid of DEI would be one start, so diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives, because that actively penalizes men, punishes men for no good reason.And if you are-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that true? It p-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... it actually actively penalizes men as opposed to just lifting up other groups?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Well, I mean, coming from academia, I can tell you that they actually have job postings, I've seen them myself, where they explicitly will say, "This job is for, you know, a minority and, or a woman," you know, basically ruling out white men. And, um-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm an immigrant, so.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] So it doesn't affect you.
- CWChris Williamson
No, I'm fine.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But it's, it's crazy. I mean, I've had so many colleagues tell me this. I'm not in academia anymore, but they will tell me the things that they experience, um, behind basically closed doors, where if they want to apply for something, they'll be discouraged because they'll say, "This position is for a woman or for a minority, so don't bother applying."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So this is just one, you know, faction of society. I, my understanding is this happens everywhere. This was very much in like corporations as well, but I think it's been hopefully dialed back a little bit, right, since-
- CWChris Williamson
And your goal here is if you enable men to get access socioeconomically, that allows this imbalance, the, the tallness of women, s- the men get to grow tall, a little bit taller.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right. Right. It's, it lets it be a little bit more of like a organic outcome.
- 22:39 – 32:01
How the Pill Changed Female Sexual Choice
- CWChris Williamson
How has birth control contributed to this?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, uh, birth control has affected mating psychology. I'll start, start with women. It's because birth control halts ovulation, so just very briefly for your audience in case they may not be aware of how birth control works, uh, ovulation is when women are the most fertile in their cycle. So that's when they be- can become pregnant. So that window is typically around, say, day 11 to 16 of your cycle. So your first day of menstruation is day one, and then it goes into, you know... I'll, I'll leave it at that. [laughs] So basically, when you're ovulating, because you can get pregnant, your sexual psychology is, um, we'll say at its peak. It, I think it's a very interesting time to be studying in terms of women and their mating decisions, because-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... that's when their decisions, decisions about sex have the greatest potential consequences. So if you're halting that process in a woman or an entire multiple generations of women, one in 10 women of, um, child-bearing age is on the pill. So-
- CWChris Williamson
One in 10?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I would've thought it would've been more.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It's, you would think it's more, but it's-
- CWChris Williamson
What about in the West?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... 11, 11%. That's in America.
- CWChris Williamson
No way. It's only 11%?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, according to the CDC.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you encountered, uh, that's h- any type of birth control or just the pill?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That's the pill.
- CWChris Williamson
So you could have the implant, uh-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... the arm implant thing, you could have the injection, you could have IUD, you could have Mirena coil.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, all the... I- in Sex Extinction I have the statistic regarding like all birth control, but, um, or rather all contraception.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But in terms of the pill specifically, so what happens is if you're not ovulating, you're basically blunted in terms of that sexual-... interest and that, um, signaling. 'Cause during that time, women have been shown in studies to wear more provocative clothing. They're more likely to want to go out to clubs and meet men, to socialize, things like that, right, to meet partners. And also men can tell when women are ovulating. So they can tell in terms of a woman's appearance. They can tell by her scent. And men who are in relation-
- CWChris Williamson
Can tell by the way that they walk.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
You see that study where they did silhouettes of women-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... walking down the street?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So good.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, it's wild. So, and, and men in relationships will show more mate guarding behaviors when their partner is ovulating if she's not on the pill.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I didn't know about that.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- 32:01 – 33:27
Inside Chris’ Time as a Romance Novel Model
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I was gonna ask you, what was it like shooting for those novels?
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Have you thought about this?
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so the way that I used to do it was I would shoot with a photographer for just my portfolio stuff. So it wasn't, it wasn't purposefully raunchy shit. I guess I, I don't know. I just, I just turned it on. Uh, I don't know what, I don't know what happened. Anyway, it got picked up. The first shoot that I did got picked up by, uh, a really good, uh, author and put on the cover of a book called Ricochet. And then I got flown out to go and do some of these, they're like f- book conventions, I suppose.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
But the entire thing is, like, two thousand dark romance readers. So there's me and a couple of the other cover models, and then the husbands of the authors that are there to help them.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's it. And it just... Apart from that, it's just female, female readers. Um, which sounds wonderful in practice, but the, um... I was twenty-s-seven, twenty-eight or something like that. Um, the age profile, I was the youngest person in the room usually by, like, a factor of two. Um, anyway, it was, it was interesting. It was fun. Um, it's a part of my history, but I'm, I'm, I've aged out.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I could be-- I might just pivot into cinnamon roll husband. I can't wait for that. Gotta go.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Chill out.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
There you go.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
If this podcast, you know.
- CWChris Williamson
If it tanks, fuck it.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughing]
- CWChris Williamson
But
- 33:27 – 37:05
How Modern Environments Disrupt Our Hormones
- CWChris Williamson
anyway, so we, we, we've, you've already got what's happening with hormonal birth control for women, and then we do have endocrine disruptors-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
The low testosterone
- CWChris Williamson
...for men too.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. So definitely, I mean, there was, there've been a number of studies showing this, that testosterone levels have been declining for the last, say, forty years. And it's been, you know, pretty severe, I would say, in the last twenty years. And researchers have accounted for things like age, diet, you know, weight, exercise, lifestyle choices like alcohol, smoking, and cannabis. And still they say there's something going on here where it is [chuckles] environmental and that it is something specific to this time period. And so they do think that there's something, you know, in terms of the food we're eating potentially or in our water supply.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I've read a lot of the animal literature in terms of, uh, drugs in the water and how this affects fish or-
- CWChris Williamson
What are the craziest stories that you learned about that?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
...plant species. Um, there was one species of Japanese fish, and they tested diazepam. So, okay, well, there was one study that looked at fish that were exposed to pharmaceutical waste, and then also, um, there was... I'm trying to think what the other source was. But basically, one part of the water supply, the fish were masculinized, so they're intersex in both directions. Some of the fish were more andri- like, more masculine, and then some of them were feminized. So it's basically saying, you know, this is happening to the fish, like, what do you think it's doing to humans? But with these Japanese fish, they were lethargic, and they were basically too knocked out to, to breed. The courtship behavior was messed up.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
The, the female fish, their ovaries were so distended, and I felt really bad for the fish looking at these pictures 'cause I thought, "That doesn't look, you know, very healthy or comfortable."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So it's basically, you know, these, these drugs are doing something, I think doing something to us and w- how, you know, if you're not even aware of it, even if you do manage to find a partner and fall in love and decide you do wanna have a family, you may come up ac-across the, come up against these issues. And then if you're not even aware that this is what you're ingesting on a daily basis, what do you do then?
- CWChris Williamson
SSRIs drive sex drive down, right?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
They affect the l-libido, and there's also post-SSRI sexual dysfunction.
- CWChris Williamson
Syndrome. Yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, yes, yes.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That's becoming more common.
- CWChris Williamson
PSSSD.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that, um, in many cases, we don't know the effects of these drugs on children, and in some cases, they are being prescribed to kids, so that's very concerning.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 37:05 – 46:42
Porn’s Devastating Impact on Men
- CWChris Williamson
Is the issue, do you think, more about a desire for sex or coupling?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hmm. You mean in terms of why people aren't having it?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Probably both. I think at the core, everybody wants to find someone. Many people may say that they, they've given up and they're happy on their own, but I do think that's what most people deep down want. And sex is... Well, see yeah, the thing with sex though, I think porn is a big part of this issue in terms of why people are turning away from actual sexual activity.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
They're getting their needs met through this proxy that simulate or simulates real sexual activity, because when you're watching porn, the same network of brain regions is activated as when you're actually having sex. So you're having the resulting orgasm-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... and you are, you know, getting these feel-good chemicals. It helps to self-soothe and regulate your emotions, help you, help calm down if you're stressed out. And so it makes men, I think, in particular, less likely to wanna go out and go through the hassle of having to talk to a woman, having to sit through a date, having to pay for the date, having to follow up and all this stuff. Like, why bother do that if you can get sexual gratification on a screen? But I think also that leads to potentially, like, an overall sense of lethargy, because when you are masturbating and having orgasm, you are, you know, you're gonna be sleepy after. So is that also... You can tell me, do you think this is a tr- not for you, but just in a trend more generally-
- CWChris Williamson
Go on
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... with young men-
- CWChris Williamson
Try again
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... in terms [chuckles] of does, does this affect their motivation? Because I'm, I'm wondering for guys, this question of why men are n- are falling behind in society, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And I, I'm very concerned for young men because I imagine, I hear all the time from parents that their daughters are doing really well, excelling academically, but their sons just for whatever reason are just, they're not, they're not enjoying it. You know, they're having mental health issues.
- CWChris Williamson
Think they're just staying at home and fapping all the time.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Well-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... maybe not fapping, but they're like, you know, vaping and-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... playing video games or online betting or whatever, and they have no motivation. Do you think porn could be part of that? Because I think if you're exposed to this at such a young age, and this is the thing that you're watching every day, and it's your coping strategy, that potentially that's the thing you're gonna constantly gravitate toward and it's actually gonna, you know, make you really sedated and lethargic more broadly in life.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think sedated is a great word. I've got another idea that Scott probably can't wait to fucking misquote, um, the male sedation hypothesis. Young male syndrome, which I know that you know about, historically high volumes of young sexless men tended to cause anarchy and revolutions and push over granny and set stuff on fire.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it given that we've seen the highest rates of sexlessness amongst young men in the modern world that we're not seeing the concordant amounts of antisocial behavior? And it's my belief that men are being sedated out of their status-seeking and reprod- redu- reproductive seeking behavior through, uh, screens, video games, and porn. Uh, and yeah, that, that's what's happening behaviorally, maybe there's some endocrine disruptors, maybe a lot of weed. I think more people, uh, more young guys smoke weed than drink alcohol now. So yeah, the, it is a real push toward lethargy. Um, do I think that it's, you're anesthetizing yourself from your sort of mate-seeking behavior by being able to use porn? Almost certainly to a degree. I mean, w- there's even the opposite, which is, what was it? "Masturbate before you evaluate" was a tagline at university, which was, "Do I really wanna sleep with that girl? Let me, let me have a wank first and work out if I still do." And for the most part, the guys were like, "No, it wasn't that. I, I..." Like, what was it? "Uh, I didn't like you. I was just horny." Um, and in some ways you go, "Ah, that, that avoids me from making a mistake." But when you do it en masse and when it's very easily available, um, I mean, look, uh, there's some mixed bag data. Dr. David Ley is very anti-porn panic. I know, uh, Mike Israetel is very anti-porn panic too. And then on the other side, there's some people that are, behaviorally it's not recognized as an addiction properly yet, I don't think.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
But, um, it seems impossible to me that one of the strongest drivers for humans being given to them freely, they can push a, essentially push a button, like rub a button for a while, and the [laughs] and they get to, uh, experience this thing that... I mean, you know what would be fascinating? I would have loved to have seen in hunter-gatherer tribes how much, uh, masturbation happened, uh, occurs. Like is it-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Probably too busy foraging. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Well, that might be, that might be true. Um, w- just talk to me the neuroscience of porn use. Is there anything distinct about that that's different to what's happening when people have sex? Uh, uh.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Uh, okay. I was gonna mention, I was gonna say something. Oh, so, uh, what I was gonna say, I agree with you in terms of like if you're, I can see if you're doing it like c- constantly and it becomes a lifestyle thing, how... This is what my concern is, if it's like a lifestyle thing for guys. 'Cause I've had men say to me when they are not watching porn, if they manage to cut out porn entirely, that they actually have more motivation to go up and talk to a woman. Because I would imagine if you see a woman that you're attracted to and you wanna go speak to her, and say you're maybe more shy or anxious, you know in the back of your mind that you can go home and masturbate, and that's gonna give you a release after.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So in some ways, would that not make it a little bit easier-
- 46:42 – 51:38
How Porn is Impacting Women
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. How's porn affected women?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I think there are more women struggling with porn issues than people realize 'cause this has predominantly been an issue, like, say, um, porn, quote, "addiction," although like you said, I, I don't believe porn i-is addictive. I think it's a poor coping mechanism for people who have anxiety and who procrastinate.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That's really what it's been-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... when I talk to men with porn problems.
- CWChris Williamson
Se-sedating, not addicting.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Well, because if you say you have-
- CWChris Williamson
Humpting
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... anxiety or you lack assertiveness, it's a very easy way to distract yourself and not have to deal with the problems in your life, which I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with this because I think because it's pornography and it's related to sex, it's a lot more stigmatized.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So I understand why people wanna call it an addiction because there have been studies that claim that it's addiction, but they don't, uh, account for other confounding variables, so they don't ask about things like paraphilias. They don't-- From what I've seen, they don't ask about anxiety. So you don't know when you're looking at these brain regions that are supposed to be different that are correlated with addiction. You don't know if what you're seeing in the people with porn problems is due to addiction, or is it due to the fact that they're anxious, or the f- the fact that they have these unusual sexual interests. So I think that research could be a little bit cleaner. If the, if it does happen that new studies come out showing this, then I'm fully on board with that, but I'm just not really convinced because when you talk to guys with porn problems, almost always they have anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And this is a way for them to avoid talking to their spouse or their girlfriend.
- CWChris Williamson
So what's different with women?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Women, I think it's the same thing. We don't know as much about women because this is a, an issue that I think has only really become more of a, a problem with the younger generation, maybe even millennial women, like younger millennial women, with the accessibility of porn. But I think even-- 'cause it's even with studies, when they're looking at, say, the, the effects of porn on kids, women have only really started to show more negative, um, body image, say, or body comparison more recently because girls are being exposed to it now. They-- Girls tend to watch porn later than boys, and they tend to watch it maybe once or twice out of curiosity. But I do think with, like, Gen Z, they're being exposed to this even before their first sexual experience, before their first orgasm. They can't make sense of it, and I think that it can be integrated into their life a little bit more.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So same thing, I think anxiety. Usually, for anyone with a porn issue, there's a history of some form of sexual trauma, unfortunately. So there, there-- it's a way that-
- CWChris Williamson
Anyone with a porn issue-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... they, they like to say it
- CWChris Williamson
... or most, most people with a porn issue, there is some history of sexual trauma.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Not everyone, but in my experience, many of them have had some issue with, uh, yeah, either with abuse or being exposed to porn at a young age, either accidentally, and that was like a traumatic thing. Like when I say trauma, I'm not... The way sometimes people use the word trauma nowadays is very flippant, right? They use it over the, the s-
- CWChris Williamson
You mean actual-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Insignificant thing. No, yeah, I'm referring to something that is actually quite horrific and awful. Or they, um, in the-- or they might have been shown it in the process of grooming.
- CWChris Williamson
So what do, what, what do you think is going on? Is it just disinhibition, dysregulation? Is it the same reason that people who maybe had a childhood trauma struggle with gambling or struggle with drugs or alcohol or their emotions rage? Is it just the same, but this, the particular pathway these people have found is porn? Or is there something specific about the, the mechanism that porn gives that helps them to sort of, I don't know, alchemize or try and alchemize whatever they went through?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It could be partially a biological thing because it's like a self-soothing thing. So especially for children, if they're not taught ways to self-regulate, they're looking for ways to feel good when they're stressed out or upset, right? So some people gravitate toward drugs and alcohol. Other people might gravitate toward porn. I think it's depends on how old you are, probably when you, uh, come across it initially, what your experience is when you see it. Like, is it a pleasurable thing? But I think for the men, say, who've, like when I was doing research, who had had these negative experiences in childhood, it was a way of revisiting it to try and make sense of it, I think. Um, but I, yeah, I, I really strongly believe, like, sitting down with a competent therapist and working through that stuff could be very helpful for people.
- CWChris Williamson
Better than porn.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
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- 51:38 – 1:08:25
Is Porn Making Sex More Aggressive?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think about the relationship between porn use and the type of sex that people are having?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
In terms of it influencing the type of sex? So in terms of, say, very extreme thi-- previously, okay, I would start with before the internet. So if-- 'cause there's a concern about does porn make men more violent? Does porn make men entitled in se-with sex? Um, previously, if a man grew up and had his first sexual experience prior to online porn, I would say porn is not the thing that made him. If he is, say, violent or, um, likes to degrade his partners or, or treat them poorly, I wouldn't say that's porn. I would say that's due to the way he was raised. He's probably antisocial, probably has some dark triad personality going on there, probably, um, doesn't think very highly of women, has a lot of hostility toward women. But those views would have been formed prior to porn, so I don't think porn is the problem. I think he probably w-was interested in violent porn and violent sex because of other factors in terms of how he was raised, potentially. Nowadays, with the fact that, the fact that kids are being exposed to this so young, I'm really concerned about how this is affecting their sexuality, because we do see studies coming out showing that kids who are having problematic sexual behaviors, it's due to being sexualized by porn, like early exposure. This trend of sexual choking that I write about in "Sextinction."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, young women, Gen Z women in particular, it's almost ubiquitous, so I think that is being, be due to them being exposed to this at such a young age and believing that this is what they need to do in order to attract men or to be enticing in the bedroom.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And I'll be very clear that you can die from doing this, so it's not safe. There's no safe way to do it. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
You know, this was Louise Perry's thing, that she was helping to prosecute, uh, guys that had killed their partners-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... and then used whatever it is-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Rough sex. Literally, it was rough sex
- CWChris Williamson
... the rough sex excuse thing, which, uh, yeah, I mean, that's, that's fucking horrific. Uh, there is a bit of research that I wanted to talk to you about, which I've never spoken about on the show before, you're probably familiar with. New study interviewed three hundred and two adults. Of those, more women enjoyed aggression in porn, were aroused by portrayals of female pain, and reported wanting to see more aggression. And this is a bar chart which shows women saying double the number of women saying aggression is arousing, uh, triple the number of men, uh, triple number of women to men, uh, hard aggression is arousing. Maybe four times the number of women to men would like more aggression in mainstream pornography. Uh, maybe thirty percent more actively seek aggression. Uh, the only thing that men are stronger on is aroused by women showing pleasure in response to aggression, and that's maybe five percent. Uh, aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression, nearly double women to men.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
This seems to be pretty... This is a, a small sample size, three hundred and two people, but this is, you can dig deeper and find out kind of the same pattern. And it's something that I remember I once read a feminist who wrote about this, and she said something along the lines of, um, "It's an uncomfortable fact for most modern feminists that women seem to prefer aggressive porn than men do." Uh, and, uh, misogynists use this as a, an excuse that, like, "She wanted it made," uh, type thing.That to me does suggest that the picture is a little bit more complex than just guys have learned it in porn.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And now they're doing it to women, and women feel the need-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... to perform up to it. That-- No one's pushing women in that way. It's not the only study of that kind. And, um-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, I agree. I, I'm not one of those people that think that this is entirely, like, men pushing it on women and women have no choice but to do it. I do think there are some women out there, that's, uh, sexual mas-masochism.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So it's like sexual arousal at the idea of being hurt, humiliated, degraded by your partner.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So that's the only paraphilia that you actually find in women typically. So usually women, if-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's so... Sorry. That's so interesting. The only paraphilia that's typical in women-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... paraphilia being kind of odd sexual-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, uh, proclivities, is-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Masochism. If you do, if wo-
- CWChris Williamson
Self-masochism.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, yeah. Masochism is when it's happening to you. Sadism is when you're doing it to someone else.
- 1:08:25 – 1:14:10
How Social Media is Rewriting Sexual Norms
- CWChris Williamson
interesting. So we have basically the most sexually permissive culture in history that is also having the least amount of sex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, which is wild. It's crazy when you think about, like I was thinking about social media and even something as subtle as that, like everyone's on social media. But I do think it, even that is changing the way that people view potential partners, how they view their own partners.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
A study that I cited in Sextinction showing that roughly one in ten men actually loses interest in having sex with his own partner after looking at influencers, and that women also feel less sexually desirable after being on social media.
- CWChris Williamson
Hang on. One in ten men lose, lose interest?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like i- i- for a brief window of time?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, they didn't specify.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So they're less, they're, they're less interested in having real sex with their partner-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Partner
- CWChris Williamson
... when they've been looking at influencers on the internet.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I do remember at uni [laughs] this is so fucking bad.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That was an English study too, actually, so.
- CWChris Williamson
Good. Well, it was probably, it was probably the people that used to em- that I used to employ. It was probably the lads that used to work for me. I do remember, um, there was two, two guys that, uh, were gonna go on first dates with these two chicks two nights in a row. On the first one, he turned up and he ended up going back with her and having sex. Um, but he said she looked nothing like her Instagram. It was gutting. It's like she was so hot on the Instagram, kind of like a catfish type thing, and he had this joke about he wondered if he could have just sellotaped her Instagram to her forehead so he could have looked at that. Uh, and then the next night, the guy went out on one, and she was really lovely and great, and then I don't think they'd, they'd slept with each other that night. And he came back and looked at her Instagram and got turned off because she wasn't able to present herself in the marketplace of-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But that's a good thing, no?
- CWChris Williamson
I said that. That's what I said. That's what I s- I was like, "Dude, you found a barn find. That's a diamond in the rough. You found somebody that's, um, really fantastic, she shows up wonderful in person, that the marketplace where most other people are gonna be competing for y- with you for her, y- she's, uh, she just not present." I don't know what, what it was. I didn't do my research. Uh...
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So what is it he didn't like about the fact that, like so he can't send people to her profile to look at her?
- CWChris Williamson
No, he just, I think that there was a... It wasn't even as deep as that. Uh, sorry, it was significantly more deep than that. Not that he couldn't show off this girl that could potentially become his girlfriend or whatever to other people on Instagram. I think it... What I believed it to be was he was so conditioned to judging a woman's attractiveness through her social media profile, and especially given that it's the most extreme version of you.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And for men too, right? The most extreme wealth or whatever, um, that he, he got the ick by her having a bad Instagram account. Instagram.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and I know. I don't k- I, I... The club promotion industry is a, a weird and wonderful place, but I'll never forget it. Two nights in a row, one guy saying, "I wish I could have strapped her Instagram to her forehead." And the next night, the guy going, "She was amazing, but I went and looked at her social media profile after we'd been on the date, and it was a turn off, dude. I got the, I g- I got the ick because her Instagram wasn't hot."
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So he wants the hot Instagram lady who's just as hot in real life?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, yes, I think so. Uh, I, they... Look, these guys were nineteen.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But I-
- CWChris Williamson
They had no prefrontal cortex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I don't even think that that's that uncommon though. I think it's that, that social media has done something like that more subtly though to the general population.
- 1:14:10 – 1:25:04
The Beauty Standards Porn is Creating
- CWChris Williamson
to. Okay, talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time. Have we seen increases in it? Have the types changed? What, what's the context of people getting different looks? The Kardashians did the fucking BBL for a while. Is that still in?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Now it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women, so they are actually... Boob jobs are very popular among that cohort.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I do think that's influenced by pornography. Also labiaplasty. I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women, very many young women feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done, which is also influenced from porn. And it... I mean, it's just crazy to me. It makes me wonder, is that why people are not interested in having sex? Same with guys. Guys are getting filler injections into their penis f-for even sexting purposes. Like, they just want to look bigger.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing] That's so good. George, my housemate, used to make this joke every time that we were on a plane. It was the same... You know, someone-- It's kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad. And you know those teeny, tiny hundred and seventy-five ml cans of Diet Coke?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He would always say, he's like, "I'd keep a hold of one of those, and I'd go back and I'd take a dick pic with it in the background, so it would make it look-"
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You know, it's like, oh, that's a three thirty or a three fifty five ml can.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
But I've kept the, I've kept the airplane mini, and-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... that's, you know, comparatively.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Guys should be doing that instead of getting the filler in their penis.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree. I agree. Make Diet Coke, mini Diet Cokes great again. Um, so yeah, you're... I mean, the-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... labia, labiaplasty and the penis stuff, it seems to be obvious that it would be influenced by porn. That seems to be directly-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But even things like I see, um, like, news reports of women under thirty getting facelifts, getting upper eye lifts, right? And I, in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think they're trying to do?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Well, I think, um, if you look at, say, when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid-twenties. So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid-twenties. So if you're older than that, you're gonna try and look younger, and if you're younger, you're trying to look older.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And so you're gonna use, you're gonna choose the procedures-
- CWChris Williamson
Women are the most fertile in their mid-twenties?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Early to mid-twenties.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I found out some really fucking uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile. Really young.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's really young.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- 1:25:04 – 1:29:11
Is Looksmaxxing Backfiring?
- CWChris Williamson
What I would say about the looksmaxxing thing, um, [chuckles] is what guys seem to be optimizing for is formidability. So they're optimizing for the sort of things that other men respect, not that women are attracted to. So other men would... If you look at most guys that have looksmaxxed and put them in front of women-I wonder whether women would find them more attractive
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So it's intrasexual competition again
- CWChris Williamson
Or whether men would find them more formidable. I think that more men would find them more formidable than more women would find them more attractive
- DSDr. Debra Soh
'Cause most women are not looking for their guys to be hyper, hyper-masculine like that
- CWChris Williamson
It-- There's even some evidence to suggest that women prefer a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And not super jacked either
- CWChris Williamson
No, not super jacked. They... But it-- they want average face-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... or sometimes actually slightly feminized face with masculinized body
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but all of the guys are just pushing toward heavier browed-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... like a deeper jaw, stronger cheekbones. But do you know the David Putts study that he did about when he brought, uh, people into the lab and got women to rate attractiveness and men to rate formidability?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Remind me.
- CWChris Williamson
So fucking good. So, uh, photos of guys shown to women and men. Women were asked to rank, um, how attractive do you think this man is? Men were asked to rank how likely do you think it is that you could beat this other man in a fight?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Huh.
- CWChris Williamson
One year later, they brought the men from the photos into the lab and asked what their sexual success had been over the last year, and the female ratings of attractiveness had basically zero predictive power for their sexual success. But the male ratings of formidability were very predictive.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
So even though [chuckles] what I think is happening at level one, this is like the Epstein files. At level one, where he didn't kill himself, is looksmaxers are optimizing for, uh, formidability because they're disregarding women, and it's intrasexual competition because I just want to marg other guys. I just want to be better than other men. Level two, Epstein's still alive and playing Fortnite in Israel, is actually by pursuing formidability, they may end up closing their eyes and throwing the dart at the dartboard and hitting the bullseye of women actually finding them more attractive than if they'd tried to pursue attractiveness as the main outcome. But this is, again, this is w- working theory at the moment.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, I mean, 'cause I could see that in terms of tattoos, there have been studies to show that men when they get tattoos, it actually is more so about scaring off their male rivals because women don't... Some women like tattoos, but not-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... all do, and, and some women actually are turned off by tattoos. So it's more, again, like you said, ab- of scaring off and beating your rivals than directly attracting women. But I also wonder if it's that these men are projecting onto women their preferences. So men care more about looks and, you know, youth. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... I wonder if when you look at, say, marriage or marital satisfaction, men say... Men's-- Whether men find their wives attractive has a greater correlation with their marital satisfaction than whether women find their husbands attractive. So I wonder if these young guys are projecting onto women, thinking that women care so much about looks when it's actually that's what they care about in their partners. So the-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading using their own, uh, assessment criteria-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and saying, "You must think the way that I think. I'll do more beautification." Well-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... um, Mack and Murphy's got this great idea where he talks about how, uh, the increases in male beautification are to try and offset this, uh, inability to get hypergamy to work. That men have realized that because they can't win socioeconomically, they might have to turn the-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I've read about this. That's crazy, yeah
- 1:29:11 – 1:38:25
Is Sexlessness Destroying Marriages?
- CWChris Williamson
theories. Um, what about the effect of sexlessness in marriage?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Ooh, I can tell you, I've-- When I was in research, I would interview some men who had not had sex in, like, decades, which is why-
- CWChris Williamson
In a marriage?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, in a marriage.
- CWChris Williamson
Married men who'd not had sex in decades.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. I mean, at that point, there's a lot of cheating. Um, not that that's justified, but I, I think it can be very damaging to a relationship, even if you're not married, to be sexless.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
'Cause that's a way to bond with your partner. Especially for men, they tend to use sex as a way to have intimacy, like emotional closeness with their partner.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the few places that they can.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah. So, ugh, I feel for people out there. You know, marriage... I'm a- assuming marriage is very difficult as is, and I'm not sure what would be useful for your audience, like [laughs] how to overcome that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm, put your phones away, number one. It's crazy some of the stats I was reading in terms of people using social media during sex, right after sex-
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck off
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... Yeah, that same study. During, I can't remember the stats-
- CWChris Williamson
How?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... off the top of my head. It's, it's in Extinction that I, I cited it. But it's-- I don't know. I was trying to think, figure that out myself. I'm thinking, "How do you excuse yourself to go post something and then come back?" [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
I can't be posting. It can't be posting. There's no way that you can do that. I could see scrolling at best.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Or if they go to the bathroom maybe.
- CWChris Williamson
During sex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Or even right after, that's pretty bad.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the during that gets me. Maybe it's my friend strapping their Instagram to the forehead. Maybe it's just that. I don't know. Um, yeah, I got, I found this-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, but that's... Uh, sorry, I was gonna say with the, with, um, there's another study that showed the more that people are on their phones ignoring their partners, they have less sex, which makes sense.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that called phubbing?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Phubbing.
- CWChris Williamson
Phubbing.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Phubbing. They should-- They need to rename that. It's a stupid name. Um, yeah, I... Arthur Brooks and Matthew Hussey taught me some interesting stuff around this about sort of revitalizing... And James Sexton as well taught me some interesting stuff. Arthur's was more neuroscientifically backed. Um, that one of the problems you have in long-term marriages is that, uh, safety turns into consistency, turns into comfort, turns into laziness.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that, that we just go through the same dance. We do it on a Tuesday, and it happens in this way, and I don't... There's noThere's no distance, there's no intrigue. Where'd you go today? Oh, are you wearing something new? Oh, this is a little bit different. I don't-- There's no push and pull, right? And a lot of the chemistry and the reason that I think people are so enlivened and excited at the start of a relationship is there's so much to discover about someone.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Mm-hmm.
- 1:38:25 – 1:45:52
Is the Sex Doll Revolution Coming?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
question.
- CWChris Williamson
What about sex dolls? What'd you learn? They're good? Are they bad?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Ugh.
- CWChris Williamson
Didn't you-- Hang on. Didn't you, didn't, did you design one?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
I made one in my likeness. I did. Well, I was on the hunt to make one in my likeness.
- CWChris Williamson
Was it for sale?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] I'm not answering that question. [laughs] It was actually a lot of fun to go on that exploration. So in the-- each chapter, I go into a little, like, mini adventure. That's what I call them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Where I go and I research the technology and try it out, and so I went and explored sex dolls and robots, and it's crazy what's out there. It's very, very realistic, I have to say. I didn't consummate my relationship with any of these dolls, but in terms of what happened-
- CWChris Williamson
Would've been weird to have done it with your own one.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about that. I thought, is that technically masturbation or is that, you know, [laughs] what is that?
- CWChris Williamson
What's, what's autogynephilia? Which one's that one?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Autogynephilia is when you are sexually aroused at the th-- a man is sexually aroused at the thought of having the body of a woman. So when you see-
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... someone who's born male, who is, has a desire to transition to female, that is-- If they are attracted to women or if they are attracted to both men and women-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... that's autogynephilia. Whereas if they are born male and attracted to men and want to transition to female, then they are-- it's considered the gay subtype. So this was my first book, "The End of Gender."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But basically, yeah, autogynephilia is a huge, huge motivator for the whole trans ideology activism.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder if you could-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
The ones who are the angriest are autogynephiles
- CWChris Williamson
... I wonder if you would be able to provide them with... I wonder if you could get people a self sex doll of them, but the opposite sex.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, I've seen some people do this. They will get like a-
- CWChris Williamson
You're fucking kidding me.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
No, I've s-
- CWChris Williamson
I thought this was a new idea. I was breaking new ground. I made a joke to see if we can eBay your old sex doll and try and, you know, fucking help the advance of the book.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Get some sales in there.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Thank you. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
And, and, and then I thought that this was, I thought this was new frontiers, but people have got sex dolls of themselves in the opposite sex.
- 1:45:52 – 1:47:48
Why We’re Struggling to Connect
- CWChris Williamson
okay. So what, what is the biggest story about sort of human needs and, and relating beyond bits just n-not going into bits at the same rate anymore? Like people aren't doing the thing, but what, what does that tell us about the ways that humans are connecting? What's the deeper lesson?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
That we're not connecting. That's, uh, what I think. There are a lot of stand-ins for connection, like something as simple as having a conversation person versus over a screen. There is, there's a difference there. There's a difference biologically in terms of like how we respond to that. And I just think more broadly in society, like if you go out, I'm sure Austin is the same as Toronto, where most-- or maybe it's not, but most people are on their phones. You know, when I'm thinking when you're at the airport, you're on the plane, every- everywhere in public, everyone is just on their phone all the time. People don't really talk to each other or even make eye contact. And I, I do think that has larger ramifications beyond something so small as preferring to look at your phone-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... you know, 'cause you're bored or whatever. And so I think that over time has, has snowballed into this thing where we are very much, like, enclosed. We all have our own little bubbles because it's like the norm now socially. It's very s-- it's seen as weird to talk to strangers or to make small talk or it's like cringey or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But especially in roman- terms of romantic context, like everything is made to be so simple and convenient with like dating apps or people, say, using, using social media to meet, but that's not really meeting someone in real life, and it's almost as though the convenience of it is a reason as to why people don't take it so seriously, right? If it's so easy to meet people-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... why would you care? Why... You g-- it didn't cost you anything.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
It didn't require anything of you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. A home-cooked meal is treated with more love than a McDonald's.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Although, I mean, I'm very healthy, but I would say, you know, McDonald's was great at one point. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
McDonald's, McDonald's is good, but you're never gonna look at it and think, "I'm th- th- the... This is a very valuable meal," unless you're starving.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um,
- 1:47:48 – 2:01:50
Are We Self-Selecting Out of Reproduction?
- CWChris Williamson
okay, what about fertility rates and reproduction? Like, 'cause ultimately everything that we've spoken about up until now is the proximate reason for behavior, right? All of it is just-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... it's pleasure, and it's connection, and it's all the rest of it. But the ultimate reason for the behavior is to reproduce.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? It, it is the same... It is not far off the same as saying we have managed to construct a world in which th- these screens and this media and these xenoestrogens and this culture and these thoughts and the way that this has come together has caused people to throw themselves off of buildings. Like because genetically that is the equivalent, right? Survival and reproduction, and the only reason for the survival is so that you can do the reproduction. If you didn't need to survive, it would just be reproduction.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How, how have we managed to get ourselves to the stage where an animal has been convinced to select themselves out of breeding?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Hmm. Because life is so distractible. We're so distracted, right? It's so easy to be... [sighs] Well, relationships are hard, right? Dating is hard. Finding someone is hard. Connecting with people is hard 'cause people are unreliable. People have their own decisions and autonomy as they should. And so when you have alternatives, either romantic alternatives or just ways to pass the time that don't involve that messiness, I think it can, can be quite alluring. So I agree with you. I don't think everyone has to have children.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But I do think for people who want kids, like I'm, I'm concerned about the people who... Like one of the reasons for twenty-five percent of people who aren't having children, they say the reason is 'cause they haven't found somebody.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Which I imagine is quite devastating. And so I also talk in the book about single motherhood by choice and the fact that there are real implications for this discrepancy in terms of the sex bias. AndPeople not wanting to connect or people, say, not being able to connect. Women-
- CWChris Williamson
What discrepancy? Sorry.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, just that there are fewer viable men, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And these men typically are less interested in settling down, or there's gonna be less commitment as a result of that. Because when you have a smaller pool of men-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... like on university campuses where you have fewer men than women, men are gonna set the terms of dating and relationships and sex.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what you were talking about earlier on, that women think that if men are more desperate socioeconomically, that they'll work harder for the women. It's kind of like a, a perspective around sex ratios. They have an implicit understanding around sex ratios. They just don't understand mating preferences from women to men-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... which is that they're gonna largely be invisible.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. Well, that men are gonna be setting the terms then of, of dating. So-
- CWChris Williamson
The high-value men will be.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
In terms of how soon you're gonna have to have sex or they'll go somewhere else, or, you know, if they want to have-- they want commitment from you, but they wanna be polyquote, polyamorous or whatever, you're gonna have to put up with that.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I learned a new term last year, which is solo poly.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Oh, yeah. Remind me what that is. I've heard of this.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a guy w- typically, or it's, it's a person who is, uh, just sleeping around.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[chuckles]
- 2:01:50 – 2:05:36
Can the Sex Recession Be Reversed?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, okay, can anything be done top-down to fix this? Give me some proposed solutions. You managed to-
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. I was gonna say with the evolutionary, uh, co-evolutionary arms race, so that's David Buss' theory, um-
- CWChris Williamson
The GOAT.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah. He's a friend of mine and mentor.
- CWChris Williamson
Daddy David.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And, and it definitely shows up. It's, it's amazing because once you become aware of this dynamic and how men and women are constantly trying to out-compete each other, you see it in everything.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So in terms of advice, I would say for-- I'll start with women. I'd say I definitely think people should meet in real life as opposed to on apps or through social media, online, or whatever. So my-- And I do think men should be the ones to approach women, so women have to make it so obvious if they're into someone. And things you can do, I have suggestions in Sextinction, but one big one is to smile very obviously. And if you're like me, and you have resting B face-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... to practice smiling in the mirror until it's not uncomfortable and not awkward, which can take some time. But it-- I guarantee you, like, if you see a man you find attractive, and you smile at him, he will come and talk to you. Hopefully he can see you.
- CWChris Williamson
Cultivate receptivity.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Yeah, exactly, because men are wi- biologically wired to pick up on these cues, and there's a part of the brain called the medial orbital frontal cortex that lights up when someone sees an attractive face, and it lights up even more strongly when that face is smiling.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So I thought that was really fascinating because-
- CWChris Williamson
Your resting bitch face is resting ugly face to a degree.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
[laughs] Or it's like resting F off face. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Um, and also things like touching your hair, touch your, your face, your neck, your, adjust your clothing, things like that. Men are, again, going to pick up on this and see this as a sign that you're interested.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And so that will help to remedy, I think, some of the, um, the backlash or the difficulty after Me Too. And then for guys... Oh, and the other thing I would say to women is, so basically, your options are to compete for the high status guys, right? To date someone whom you may consider, if you are, say, a very educated, successful, financially successful woman-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... you may feel like you're dating a guy who's less successful than you, but that's totally fine, right? My, my issue is when society's telling women, "This is a great solution. Like, just have a house husband. You know? You don't need to go for these guys. You can make your own money, and you can be the provider in the fa- in the, in the household." And no.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it suggests it goes badly.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Higher rates of divorce, as you said. Yeah. Higher rates of domestic violence, higher rates of male cheating when that happens, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- DSDr. Debra Soh
... uh, you know, not to say that happens for everybody, but I think just to also have a bit of compassion for men who are struggling because my sense is women, we are doing very well, right? And I don't th- [sighs] I don't think it takes anything away from women's success or women's ability to succeed by having some compassion for men who are struggling.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
And then I would say to guys, it's probably a combination in terms of why young men are not doing as well. I think the mental health aspects. Eat healthy food. That goes for women too.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
But there have been studies that have shown, um, if you cut out ultra-processed food, d- depression will remit on its own. There was one study I remember reading, it was crazy. Within 12 weeks, a third of the sample that had depression-
- 2:05:36 – 2:06:19
Where to Find Debra
- CWChris Williamson
Debra, you're great.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
I really appreciate you. Uh, where should people go to check out everything you're doing?
- DSDr. Debra Soh
So you can get... Should I talk to the camera, or should I tell you?
- CWChris Williamson
No, talk to me.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Okay. You should get Sextinction: The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. You can get it on Simon & Schuster's website. You can get it everywhere you get books. You can get it at drdebrasoh.com. And the audiobook is read by me, and you can get it for free on Audible.
- CWChris Williamson
Sounds awesome. Um, I, I think you're doing, uh, the goddess's work. Uh, really, really cool. Really, really awesome stuff. I appreciate you.
- DSDr. Debra Soh
Thank you. [outro music]
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you very much for tuning in. Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire episode. Uh, another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.
Episode duration: 2:06:19
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