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Back in the CEO seat: travel workdays, meeting overload, and why hard work feels rewarding again
Noah Kagan and Sam Parr open with Noah’s day—family travel, working best on planes, and jumping into back-to-back meetings. Noah reflects on how he once hated meeting-heavy corporate life, yet now finds certain meetings energizing because they move the business forward. He also contrasts his lighter recent stretch (podcasts and experiments) with the renewed intensity of running the company day-to-day again.
- •Noah describes his current schedule, including travel, airplane work sessions, and stacked meetings before an evening outing.
- •He jokes about “Silicon Valley tech worker trauma,” recalling how much he disliked a meeting-only job in the past.
- •Noah explains he’s CEO again after the prior operator stepped back to an advisor role, making Noah take on more responsibility.
- •He says stepping back made him underestimate how hard the CEO job is, and returning increased his respect for the person who ran it.
- •Noah notes the work is harder now but feels more rewarding, even writing that idea into his diary.
Money talk, “cagey” numbers, and what AppSumo might be worth
Sam presses on business size and personal wealth, and Noah pushes back on the expectation to disclose exact numbers. They discuss revenue goals they missed, how founders talk about valuation versus profits, and how surreal it feels to contemplate selling a company. Noah gives a broad range for AppSumo’s potential valuation and contrasts “normal” thinking with Silicon Valley multiple-based thinking.
- •Sam references Noah previously mentioning a high revenue figure, while Noah says they won’t hit it and missed the goal.
- •They debate whether avoiding income/wealth specifics is “cagey,” and Sam shares his own comfort with round numbers.
- •Noah asks Sam about the sale of The Hustle and Sam’s compensation structure, including salary and stock.
- •Noah says AppSumo could be worth somewhere between a quarter billion and a billion dollars, but he doesn’t mentally count that as his net worth.
- •They discuss the psychological difference between thinking in profits/revenue versus valuation multiples, and how selling at huge numbers is hard to imagine.
From a $3,000/month basement goal to a 140-person company
Noah explains AppSumo began as a simple side hustle aimed at a modest monthly income, not a grand vision of millions or scale. Sam digs into why that number mattered and how Noah thought about the future. Noah says he never planned far out; he focused on serving customers and following curiosity.
- •Noah says the original goal was simply $3,000 a month from a basement in San Francisco, not building a giant company.
- •He breaks down the $3,000 target: living, eating, and saving.
- •Noah says he didn’t think far ahead and cites a Paul Graham idea about not obsessing over 10-year outcomes at the expense of today’s customers.
- •Sam reacts to the current scale and asks about headcount; Noah says they now have about 140 people.
- •Noah frames becoming a millionaire as following curiosity into the kinds of work he and Sam now do.
Payroll anxiety, budgeting traps, and building check-and-balance systems
The conversation shifts to the stress of large expenses and the discipline required when a business isn’t externally funded. Noah describes immediate pressures like advertising spend, team travel, and the risk of budgeting for aggressive revenue targets that might not materialize. He shares how he uses weekly KPI reporting and red-flag triggers to reduce anxiety while still verifying performance.
- •Noah describes real-time money decisions and the fear that revenue doesn’t guarantee income if spending gets ahead of profit.
- •He explains how budgeting can backfire when you spend for a big target and miss it.
- •Sam relates to sticker shock on big monthly expenses and shares advice he once got: treat costs like spreadsheet inputs and outputs.
- •Noah describes a weekly KPI sheet with color-coded red flags to decide when intervention is needed.
- •They discuss the idea of spending being effectively “unlimited” when it’s clearly profitable, and being cautious where scalability or profitability is weaker.
Staying disciplined after good times: COVID tailwinds, recession-proof thinking, and tightening up
Noah talks about why he’s more focused on surviving into next year than forecasting decades ahead, and he describes challenges in AppSumo’s growth mechanics. He notes that adding more partners didn’t translate proportionally into more customers, suggesting the flywheel isn’t working as expected. He also reflects on how good times can lead to undisciplined hiring and spending—and why that needs correction.
- •Noah says he’s focused on near-term survival and returning to AppSumo’s core purpose: promoting tools at great prices and helping people start/grow online businesses.
- •He describes a scaling problem: more partners were added, but customer growth didn’t rise proportionally.
- •Sam suggests COVID may have been unusually strong for some subscription-style products, sharing his experience with Trends.
- •Noah says he’s been online since 2004 and frames “no recession” as continuing to do what people want.
- •He emphasizes building discipline in good times so you don’t have to overcorrect in bad times, and says AppSumo has been a bit undisciplined lately.
Running YouTube with a small team: head of staff, creative throughput, and being recognized in public
Sam questions why Noah’s YouTube operation has multiple people, prompting a discussion about leverage and delegation. Noah describes relying on a head of staff and a team that pitches ideas, which he finds “epic” compared to doing it alone. They also talk about getting recognized, how it feels, and Sam’s unease about being seen doing everyday habits in public.
- •Noah explains how having support staff changes leadership, including moments when he now asks others to remind him of things.
- •He describes his team bringing him ideas and pitches, and how energizing it is to work with people who impress him.
- •They compare creator teams to large creator operations and talk about how many people a top channel might employ.
- •Noah says recognition varies by location and he’s still honored when people say hi.
- •Sam says he gets recognized weekly and sometimes feels nervous about being seen doing personal habits.
Is being rich happier? Both say yes—plus money habits that don’t change easily
Noah directly asks Sam how much better life is after becoming rich, and Sam answers emphatically that it’s significantly better, dismissing a commonly cited income-happiness threshold as “bullshit.” They compare lingering frugality and anxiety about purchases with the ease of spending on health. Noah shares how small personal trading swings can feel more emotional than large business outcomes, highlighting strange money psychology.
- •Sam says being rich is significantly better and rejects the idea that happiness plateaus at a specific income level.
- •He admits he still worries about spending, giving an example of hesitating over an expensive household purchase.
- •Noah shares a grocery-store moment with his mother where he’s willing to buy expensive fruit, but still feels mindful of costs.
- •Noah contrasts emotional reactions to small wins/losses in speculative trading versus huge revenue days in AppSumo that feel less dramatic.
- •They reference the idea of being “penny poor, pound rich” to describe inconsistent spending instincts.
Macro vs micro focus, investing behavior, and why Noah avoids “anthills”
Noah introduces a phrase from his business partner: don’t confuse anthills for mountains. He uses it to criticize getting lost in small optimizations or productivity-tool obsession instead of doing important work. They discuss Noah’s investing approach—prioritizing active income from business over constant tinkering—and he shares how long-term automated buying created big results.
- •Noah shares the phrase “don’t confuse the anthills for the mountains” as a reminder to focus on big, meaningful levers.
- •He criticizes productivity-tool chasing, saying many people optimize systems instead of doing real work.
- •Noah describes himself as a “boring investor,” focusing on active income and automating purchases rather than constant trading.
- •He explains he set up automatic monthly crypto buying for years and later shares the rough size and cost basis of that position.
- •Noah says the best investment for most people is their own business because it can have high upside and is more controllable than many alternatives.
NFT/DAO rabbit hole: CityDAO, shared ownership, and how token projects monetize
Noah describes becoming fascinated with NFTs and DAOs, even after getting scammed and making impulsive purchases. He highlights projects he finds conceptually interesting, including a DAO buying land and coordinating decisions via on-chain voting. Sam asks how these projects make money, and Noah explains mint proceeds, retained assets, and ongoing royalties on secondary sales.
- •Noah says he’s obsessed with the NFT space right now, even describing recent confusion and losses from scams.
- •He outlines CityDAO: pooled funding to buy land and governance rights via tokens/NFTs.
- •He describes another project concept: an NFT-based fund where holders get exposure to a shared pool investing in assets.
- •They discuss broader ideas like shared home ownership and creator/consumer ownership models rather than platforms capturing all value.
- •Noah explains revenue mechanics: proceeds from initial minting, decisions on how funds are allocated, and royalties from secondary sales that can pay creators/organizers indefinitely.
Meeting Peter Thiel: everyday gear, heavy security, and what deep thinkers do differently
Sam brings up a recent hangout with Peter Thiel and the idea that cities may outlast companies. Noah recounts impressions from meeting Thiel: ordinary clothing and an old phone contrasted with significant security. He shares a humorous poker story from his Facebook days and emphasizes that Thiel felt present and thoughtful during a long conversation.
- •Sam frames Thiel’s interest in cities and mentions Thiel’s view that businesses die while cities endure.
- •Noah describes Thiel’s surprisingly ordinary personal style (old phone, normal clothes) alongside heavy security presence.
- •Noah tells a story from his Facebook days where Thiel asked for his poker buy-in back after leaving early.
- •He says Thiel is a deep thinker and notes that Thiel and others read dense history books Noah doesn’t typically choose.
- •Noah says Thiel was generous with time and attention, staying engaged for hours without phone-checking.
Thiel’s phrases, remote work’s impact on cities, and the surprise of low “longevity” effort
Noah reads from notes he took: Thiel’s memorable phrases and frameworks, including thinking further ahead and seeking unique ideas. They discuss the claim that remote work can damage certain cities as people “vote with their feet.” Noah also describes being shocked that Thiel spends very little on longevity and isn’t especially disciplined with diet or willpower.
- •Noah lists Thiel phrases like “look ahead function,” “zombification,” and “incremental versus monumental shifts.”
- •They revisit the idea that cities may be “immortal” compared to companies, and discuss thinking of cities like shareholding in a country.
- •Noah says Thiel thinks remote work harms places like California and San Francisco because people can relocate more easily.
- •Noah says he admires that Thiel still lives where he wants despite costs, rather than optimizing life around saving money.
- •Noah is surprised Thiel spends little on longevity and describes Thiel as human—liking cake, wine, and carbs—while using systems (like an assistant hiding food) to manage his weaknesses.
If you had a billion dollars: still working, buying freedom, and sharing experiences with friends
Noah asks how life would change with a billion dollars, and both reject the idea of doing nothing. Noah says he’d likely keep working but redesign his responsibilities to focus on what he enjoys, while Sam imagines buying large tracts of land and creating places for friends to gather and play. The topic shifts toward generosity in practice—inviting friends along, sharing access, and enjoying money while alive.
- •Noah says people still want to work because doing nothing becomes boring, and he’d mostly scale what he already does.
- •He says he wouldn’t instantly pay to escape his current role, but would try to reshape work to focus on preferred areas.
- •Sam says he would buy land and create destinations for friends to do activities together, leaning into freedom and access.
- •They discuss the appeal of traveling with a group and hosting friends, referencing experiences where someone else covered an expensive outing.
- •Noah says doing a will made him reflect on living now and sharing money and experiences while he’s alive.
Creator grind vs YouTube grind: Sam’s first video, Nick Bare admiration, and building a network
As they wind down, they talk about podcasting and YouTube as difficult but worthwhile creative work. Sam describes making his first YouTube video and hating the process, while Noah encourages him and compares platforms. They praise Nick Bare’s consistency and evolution, and Noah notes how much of his net worth comes from relationships.
- •Sam and Noah discuss why people listen to the show and the difficulty of sustaining long-running content efforts.
- •Noah says YouTube is challenging differently from podcasts, with broader reach but higher production burden.
- •Sam shares his early YouTube attempts, low view counts, and doing the edit himself to test commitment.
- •They both praise Nick Bare’s content, storytelling, and work ethic, and discuss his evolution as a creator and operator.
- •Noah says relationships drive much of his net worth and describes ongoing mutual support with people he respects.
What they watch and read: survival YouTube, architecture tours, and a long book swap (plus the library extension)
The conversation turns into recommendations: favorite YouTubers, survival content, and niche viewing habits. Then they trade books—travel narratives, history, crime/military stories, and memoirs—while debating business books and how people consume so much reading. Noah promotes borrowing digitally through a library browser extension and shares a standout audiobook pick.
- •Noah lists creator channels he follows and highlights interests like outdoor survival and architecture/home tours.
- •They discuss the show “Alone” and Noah’s habit of keeping squash matches on as background noise.
- •Sam shares several recent reads and describes what drew him to travelogue-style books and historical accounts.
- •Noah recommends using a browser library extension to find free digital and audiobook versions through a local library.
- •They recommend additional titles to each other and discuss controversy around a memoir’s factuality, plus skepticism about the value of endless self-help books.
Publisher timestamps
- 0:30Noah's schedule and what he's working on now
- 11:30Why Noah doesn't think 10 years ahead
- 22:15Does being rich really make you happier? (Yes)
- 35:05Noah's thoughts from meeting Peter Thiel and startup cities
- 47:10How would you live differently if you were a billionaire?
- 58:15What Noah and Sam are reading
