By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.
On with Kara SwisherThe untold stories of Trump 2.0
Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.
Transcript
55 min read · 11,105 words- 0:00 – 2:05
Inside Trump's second White House
- JSJonathan Swan
He went within the space of about 20 minutes from being like, "What the fuck is this thing? And it seems really bad and terrifying," to, "How can I help you as president?" [upbeat music] "It Is On."
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. Today, we're going inside the second Trump administration with two people who literally wrote the book on it, New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. Maggie and Jonathan are second to none when it comes to covering Trump, so if you wanna get a behind-the-scenes look at what's going around in the White House, stick around. We're gonna focus a lot on the tech and business leaders who have been sucking up to them, of course. Maggie and Jonathan, thank you for coming on On. I'm excited to talk to you about this book.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Thanks for having us.
- JSJonathan Swan
Thanks, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
Maggie, you've said in a few interviews that writing this book nearly killed you [chuckles] and Jonathan, and you said that unlike Trump's first term, you had to assume people in the administration were not telling the truth to start with. And yet you capture some incredible scenes in the book, down to the empty ice cream cartons and potato chip, uh, bags that Trump would leave on the floor of the White House bedroom. Um, talk about adapting your reporting, uh, this time. First Maggie, then Jonathan.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Sure. So, we had to-- We first got this book contract in 2023, and we had-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... always planned on a book that was going to be the last act of Trump. Whatever that was-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... whether it was him going to prison, whether it was-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, which was a real possibility at the time, uh, whether it was him returning to the White House. And once he was back in the White House, it was very clear that we were covering a, a, a radically different presidency than anything we had seen, and certainly in most ways unrecognizable to term one.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
So, we shifted the focus to the first 14 months of this term-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... uh, and ended up jettisoning a solid 99% of our reporting.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Uh, in some cases, there is material that appeared in The New York Times, such as-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, some things related to Elon Musk, although we go a little deeper here on that topic.
- 2:05 – 8:50
Reporting on Trump's inner circle
- MHMaggie Haberman
When we were remotely uncertain about something, it went on the cutting room floor, uh, because we wanted to have the, the most accurate version of history that we could, um, about this remarkable chapter. And we are clear-eyed that this is a first draft of history, that there will be other people who are going to interpret what has happened and probably add onto some of the, um, episodes that we're, that we're describing. But we wanted to focus on, A, what was verifiable, B, what explained how this government works and how decisions are made and what their areas of focus are. And you will see that. That's across tech. It's across, uh, taking control of how the American story is told at the Smithsonian. Um, it is across the Pentagon. Uh, it is across various aspects of the government.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. Jon, when, when you were-- W- what about working with sources, especially if you thought they were maybe not telling you the truth to start with? Presumably, you begin with assuming people are-
- JSJonathan Swan
You begin with faul- false until proven otherwise.
- KSKara Swisher
I see.
- JSJonathan Swan
And, and the only thing in your introduction that I would disagree with is your characterization of, like, first term, we sort of could trust the sources, now we can't. No. Actually, no. Um, not at all.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
False until proven otherwise became my default setting in the first term as well.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
The, the biggest difference is the shrinking of the circle, which just makes it much more difficult to get-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... um, to get information. Um, I will say, uh, again, we don't wanna get too much into a sourcing conversation for reasons you, that you'll find very obvious, but, um, we've published some very detailed scenes in the Situation Room with very specific dialogue.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JSJonathan Swan
Uh, scenes that are not exactly flattering to the administration, in some cases are quite damaging to the administration. Um, there hasn't been one denial.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
There hasn't been one specific denial from any of the participants in these meetings. The only thing there has been is Trump himself doing a sort of all-purpose denial-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- JSJonathan Swan
... saying the whole thing is fake.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
But no one who's quoted in any of those scenes has denied anything so far.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Maggie, did you want to add something to that?
- MHMaggie Haberman
No, I, and that's exactly right. Uh, you know, in fact, the vice president, uh, told Megyn Kelly that he was concerned that we had recordings because, you know, of, of the specificity and accuracy, uh, of these scenes, and you know, we have not commented on that one way or the other and won't. Uh, but I don't assume that, uh, any of the people that I deal with in politics [chuckles] or in government are telling me the truth, and that's not specific to this administration by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, we hear something, and we learn a piece of information, and then we build on that, and then we, you know, look and see how the corners of the information from the various people that we're, we're dealing with overlap. And if there are major, uh, you know, disagreements about either what was said or events that happened, they're discarded. Uh, you know, in, in cases where there is agreement about the sentiment, uh, you know, then you, uh, we, we, we characterize it. Uh, but beyond that, I mean, I, I don't think it's... It's just a more rigorous and arduous process, to your point, about how much smaller this circle is. Uh, we benefit from the fact that we both covered him for such a long time. We've covered his world for such a long time. So, we can have a sense of what angle somebody might be trying to come at something from-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure
- MHMaggie Haberman
... if they're telling us, and that does help. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MHMaggie Haberman
... uh, even if... Yeah. No, go ahead, Jonathan.
- JSJonathan Swan
I mean, sometimes you can read something, right, Kara?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
And it's like, it's pretty obvious that, like, the microphone has been handed to one person-
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right
- MHMaggie Haberman
Exactly
- 8:50 – 19:15
Trump, Silicon Valley, and Big Tech
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... but it was remarkable to us that Zuckerberg, who once upon a time, uh, funded, uh, one of the most known pro-immigration groups in the country, goes during-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... the transition to go have a, a, uh, you know, sort of s- seance with Steven Miller, basically, where Steven Miller-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... makes very clear how unhappy he was with that group. Zuckerberg distances-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... himself from it. Obviously, there were corporate interests. Zuckerberg was in the middle of some kind of, I think it was an antitrust case that the government had brought, among other things.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, there was a lot. There was a lot. Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yep
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, Trump was suing Meta over being deplatformed after-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... the January 6th, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... riot at the Capitol in 2021. But it wasn't a black-and-white thing of, you know, "I'm doing these things that I really don't wanna be doing." In our reporting, these, these tech officials were delighted to be sort of shedding what they saw as, you know, constraints that had been, had been placed on them for a variety of reasons. So another example is Jeff Bezos, who goes to dinner with Trump, and again, at Mar-a-Lago. Um, and he says-- He's, he, he's trashing "The Washington Post," you know, and, and Trump is too. They're sort of commiserating. Trump is doing it from a coverage perspective. Bezos is, is lamenting the business side and describing them as, quote-unquote, "terrible," says his, you know, describes this as his worst financial investment. Whatever he thinks of the financial piece of it, uh, independent journalism is really under siege in this administration in particular. And so it's remarkable that he's having this conversation. When Zuckerberg went to dinner with Trump, Trump sits on the patio. In addition to the, the texts that they send him that he, you know, is showing off at his golf club, uh, that led Elon Musk to describe it as first-class groveling. When Zuckerberg is there, Trump keys up on his iPad as he's DJing, uh, a, a version of the national anthem sung by what is called the J6 Choir.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, "The Star-Spangled Banner."
- MHMaggie Haberman
Right.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
And it's, it's people who are, who are in prison for, for their role, alleged or for which they were convicted, in the, in the riot. And everybody, when Trump would play this version, would stand on the Mar-a-Lago patio and, you know, put hand on heart. Zuckerberg did too. And it's a pretty remarkable moment of buy-in to Trump's worldview, not just bringing him a check, not just bringing him a gift. Uh, and then you had this inauguration where you had all of these tech leaders on stage behind him, what- whether it was the head of TikTok, uh, you know, who, who needed some kind of a, uh, a, a questionable maneuver-
- KSKara Swisher
A vig
- MHMaggie Haberman
... to allow to, you know, be allowed to-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, a vig is what I call all of them, yeah
- MHMaggie Haberman
... to be allowed to continue-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... to operate in the US. Um, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... a law to sell of TikTok or make it declared a national security risk that Trump had backed in term one.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Uh, and so there are various reasons why these folks are all, are all with him. Uh, but at least for some of them, it was quite happily.
- 19:15 – 23:30
How OpenAI won over Trump
- JSJonathan Swan
of disturbing. Um, he had all these concerns about deepfakes, someone doing a deepfake of himself declaring that a nuclear weapon was, you know, a nuclear bomb was heading towards Russia or North Korea. What, what would happen? How would you verify it wasn't him, et cetera. But anyway, OpenAI, uh, very smartly, uh, courted the Trump campaign, um, and sl- and, and set up this meeting in, in Las Vegas. And it was Sam Altman was supposed to be there, but he had COVID, so it was two of his top executives. And this is the first time Trump had interacted with any type of AI tool in any meaningful way. And so they're in this crappy little hotel room in Vegas, [laughs] and they set up, uh, ChatGPT. Conference room, not a hotel room. Conference room. And they set up ChatGPT on the screen. And so they, you know, they, uh, put in a few... And Tr- so it's Trump sitting there, it's, you know, some of his team, it's, um, two of the top OpenAI executives. Uh, Doug Burgum's there as well. Anyway, um, so they set up, uh, the ChatGPT, and they put in the prompt, you know, th- they put in a prompt about the AI executive order, one of them that Trump did in term one, and they ask it to turn it into a poem. And so of course it does it, and Trump's reading it. He goes, "The language, this is so beautiful. This is incredible." He was completely bowled over by the poetry of the 2024 version of ChatGPT, and he turns to one of his aides, um, who's a speechwriter, and says, you know, "Is this gonna put you out of a job?" And so he'd started the meeting in this sort of like almost comatose state. He was yawning, he was tired, it was the end of a long day, and then he was just alert and totally locked in and kind of transfixed by this presentation. And so he starts asking them questions.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- JSJonathan Swan
Really basic questions. "How does this stuff work? Who funds it?"
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
They explained to him the concept of compute-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... and how much energy it requires.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JSJonathan Swan
And he went, within the space of about 20 minutes, from being like, "What the fuck is this thing?" And, "It seems really bad and terrifying" -
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... to, "How can I help you-"
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- JSJonathan Swan
... "as president?"
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, he's quite intuitive-
- JSJonathan Swan
"How can I-"
- KSKara Swisher
... in that regard
- JSJonathan Swan
... open the floodgates-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- JSJonathan Swan
... uh, oh, c- get rid of all... And then of course it becomes known to him, he's briefed that Biden had been chaining these guys up and-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... uh, and that he could be the one to liberate them.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JSJonathan Swan
Um, so he becomes a convert. He becomes a-
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right
- JSJonathan Swan
... total convert.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- JSJonathan Swan
And the first 12 months of the administration was essentially open season-
- KSKara Swisher
Season
- JSJonathan Swan
... for these guys.
- KSKara Swisher
For, they could do what they want.
- 23:30 – 33:45
Elon Musk, DOGE, and the White House
- JSJonathan Swan
from, uh, uh, the personnel management office, you know, the five things-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... email. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- JSJonathan Swan
... senior advisors in the West Wing would learn when the rest of us did what Musk was up to. Uh, it created this, you know, sort of presidency within a presidency, and he was demanding cuts at cabinet agencies in ways that, you know, there were some people who were quite fawning over him, like Lee Zeldin at EPA, and then there were others, uh, who were very, very troubled by the demands that he was making. Marco Rubio at State Department, um, Sean Duffy, um, at Transportation, um, Doug Collins at the VA, although, you know, it's a sliding scale of how animated everybody was. But he was just sort of doing these slashes of, you know, get rid of this one, um, use... He would make accusations. We write about this remarkable cabinet meeting in March of last year, which was only, like, six weeks into the administration at that point, um, where, uh, you know, Elon Musk is insisting that, that Sean Duffy has... I think it was like, "You have DEI hires still in the air traffic control towers," and, and Duffy was like, "Who?" Like, "Names, please." Uh, and that was, that was one of the things that-
- MHMaggie Haberman
became the beginning of the end of Musk. Uh, on the one hand, Trump saw Musk as something of a heat shield at the time. He was the one absorbing a lot of bad press. But the reality is that Musk also essentially, as, as one person put it to us in the course of this reporting, hijacked this second administration for several months.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
And-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, they've recovered in the sense that there were, you know, other things that they moved on to, like the 12-day war in Iran, which was early last June.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Then there was-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... the summer of Jeffrey Epstein files, and I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MHMaggie Haberman
But, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I'm gonna, 'cause it was Musk-related
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, it, it, the, the, there are people who they... It's not like they are rowing in different directions, um, in terms of what they want to see happen agenda-wise in this administration overall. They really aren't. It-- This is not Steve Bannon-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... versus Jared Kushner. But how you get-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... there, they're not all on the same page, you know, whether it's Russ Vought or Elon Musk or, um, Stephen Miller as the, the top people I would put in that bucket. So you have this situation where Musk, yes, they closed a congressionally ap- created agency in USAID, uh, just got rid of it. It's just gone. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... and the rump that was left became Marco Rubio's problem. But beyond that-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... as you say-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MHMaggie Haberman
... they did not do anything close to the savings they said they were going to do.
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Uh, we had the-
- 33:45 – 41:20
Trump's business empire and crypto
- JSJonathan Swan
to go through intermediaries anymore. You can put money directly into their pockets.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
You can put the, the children on boards of companies that are competing for government contracts and, in some cases, getting major g- government contracts. If you're a foreign government or, or, uh, a fund attached to a foreign government, you can go into business directly with the Trump family and the Witkoff family.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
And you said, you know, that, that we don't know the half... I don't know.
- KSKara Swisher
We don't.
- JSJonathan Swan
We might not know 5%-
- KSKara Swisher
Correct
- JSJonathan Swan
... of what the, the family's making.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
I mean, like, e- any time you go down a rabbit hole, like we went down in the book a rabbit hole, uh, on the library-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... the presidential library-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... which I think is a, a really underreported [chuckles] -
- KSKara Swisher
100% is
- JSJonathan Swan
... exercise. Of course, it's not a library. It's, it's a, it's a skyscraper.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
Uh, and, and the plot of land was given to the Trumps free.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
Very valuable plot of land in Miami was given to them for free. Eric Trump is out soliciting, uh, Gulf Arab sovereign funds.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- JSJonathan Swan
Um, this is at the same time as his father is conducting foreign policy with those countries, and those countries-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... are seeking favors. It's also, if you want to stay in with Trump, you can give money to him. So Howard Lutnick, his commerce secretary, Trump was ir- w- some of our reporting in the book was Trump was very irritated at reading stories about Lutnick's sons, uh, being involved in business that had overlaps with his government. Um, Lutnick gave $25 million to the Trump Presidential Library, and Trump would remark in front of people, "The only reason I..." This is in front of H- Lutnick as well, but others in the Oval. "The only reason I put up with Howard's bullshit is 'cause he gave me $25 million." You know, other times he'd say, you know, "How great is Howard? I asked for 25. He just gave it to me straight away." So it's all out there. Um, they've made it very clear that they're open for business, and, you know, understandably, uh, many businesses, many rich people, many people who are, are seeking pardons understand that this is the Trump economy in Washington-
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... and you've, you've gotta-
- KSKara Swisher
This is what we're gonna do
- JSJonathan Swan
... gotta g- get into it.
- KSKara Swisher
I've, I've, I've called it a coin-operated presidency. You put money in, and you get more out, typically. Musk is a good example. He puts 200, 300 million in, and he's gotten billions out in contracts and every... And he may have deserved those contracts, but some of them he might not have, right? Um, but talk about how that's allowed because one of the, the, the, uh, bec- is it because of the Supreme Court's presidential immunity ruling or the fact that Trump is going to pardon or gonna try to pardon everything? Because it's not just that. There's luxury resorts in Albania linked to Jared Kushner. Um, everywhere, i- it seems everywhere that Trump's sons are doing licensing deals around the real estate businesses that are somehow linked to, um... So it's, it's es- essentially the monetization of the White House. Maggie, uh, y- how, how is this gonna be, uh, how is this gonna turn out, and are we s- in this blurring of foreign policy with private interests?
- 41:20 – 49:20
Can anyone succeed Trump?
- JSJonathan Swan
domestic political concerns, and he's just not. I think one aspect is his mind is, he, you know, things could change, but in Do- uh, I think in Donald Trump's mind, the way he's behaving right now, he's not ever gonna run for office again. Uh, he's constantly talking about who, you know, should it be JD? Should it be Marco? You know, what have you. And he's in what he would talk about as l- describe, I think, as legacy mode, but a very specific type of legacy. You know, putting his stamp on Washington. He spends an inordinate amount of time thinking about architecture and building monuments to himself, renaming institutions, essentially branding himself indelibly on Washington, and also on reshaping parts of the world. Um, I think the great appea- one of the great appeals of the Iran situation was that he could be the first president in 47 years to finally deal with this problem. It's what can get me in the history books. Um, so I think that's part of it as well.
- KSKara Swisher
Maggie, you've also said you're not sure Trump wants a successor, and just a few weeks ago, he again floated the idea of running for a third term. Is he serious about that, or is he just trying to drive everyone, including Marco Rubio and JD Vance, crazy? 'Cause there's a scene in the book where Trump asks Rupert Murdoch about both of them-
- MHMaggie Haberman
[clears throat]
- KSKara Swisher
... and they're in the room. Um-
- MHMaggie Haberman
Yeah, those are, those are-
- KSKara Swisher
Talk about that moment.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Sure. Let me-
- KSKara Swisher
Wha-
- MHMaggie Haberman
Let me work, let me work backwards. So-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay
- MHMaggie Haberman
... um, from that, that was, we have this scene in the book, and it was, it was a pretty remarkable moment. Yes, Trump likes trolling people. Uh, we have no reason to believe in our reporting that Marco Rubio is running for president. Uh, y- you know, maybe that will change. You can scale up fairly fast. Um, but JD Vance, uh, uh, in all of our reporting is the, is the, the front-runner at the moment, but Trump's not gonna make it easy for him. And to that point, uh, you know, Trump has Murdoch to the White House for dinner in October of last year, while Trump is suing Murdoch over some of the Epstein coverage in The Wall Street Journal at the time. Very big group in the Blue Room at the White House, and JD Vance and Nusha Vance are there, Marco Rubio is there, along with a bunch of other people. And Trump starts engaging Murdoch. You know, "What do you, what do you think of JD?" And Murdoch says, "Well, JD has the potential to be great." Uh, and, uh, or good. I don't remember the exact word. Jonathan, was it good or great?
- JSJonathan Swan
Great, I think. But yeah.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Whatever. I think it was... Anyway, so, and then JD Vance, who knows that Murdoch did everything he could to stop Trump, you know, and didn't succeed, from making Vance the VP, uh, in 2024, his nominee. "Oh, thanks. Thanks a lot, Rupert." And then Trump says, you know, "Well, what about, what about Marco?" And Murdoch just icily says coolly, you know, "Marco is brilliant." And-
- JSJonathan Swan
Wow
- MHMaggie Haberman
... it was uncomfortable, and it was a, a, a pretty incredible scene just to do this in, in front of them, in front of-
- JSJonathan Swan
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... this group of people. I, you know, and there have been other moments like that where Trump has, has made asides or we, we write in the book about how Trump was talking about his, his gilding of the Oval Office, and someone asked him-
- JSJonathan Swan
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... what happens when the next person who succeeds him takes it all down, and Trump says, "Cubans love gold." Uh-
- JSJonathan Swan
[clears throat]
- MHMaggie Haberman
... JD Vance is not Cuban. So, um, but, you know-
- JSJonathan Swan
That was a funny line
- MHMaggie Haberman
... so, so Trump, uh, you know, this was misinterpreted when I said it somewhere that-
- JSJonathan Swan
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, he doesn't-- What he wants is to be the, the last big sort of leader among Republicans and among the MAGA movement. Doesn't mean that he doesn't actually want another president to take over the country. Um, it, but with the 2028 stuff, it, you know, these things often start out as... Well, it's, well, I think, I think it's slightly more complicated without being able to, you know, crawl into his mind John Malkovich style, but, uh, but I-- He just doesn't like other-- He doesn't like ceding the stage. And so the second that he anoints someone, um, that person is going to start the hourglass on Trump, uh, number one, depending on how he does it and what it looks like, fine. Number one. Number two, these things often start out as trolls with Trump, and then they take on a life of their own, like the 2028 thing. Now, it is a really hard to see a world, um, where, where he could, uh, run again. But that said, there's no world where he is leaving the stage, even if he leaves The White House. Um-
- JSJonathan Swan
Yes, that is true.
- MHMaggie Haberman
And so I think that becomes its own complication, uh, in various ways going forward. I mean, there's this, this was like-- It just-- I keep thinking about the people who keep talking about this. I keep wondering if they lived through the same 2021 that I did, where-
- JSJonathan Swan
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... Joe Biden kept saying, "The former guy," um-
- JSJonathan Swan
Mm-hmm
- 49:20 – 56:31
Trump’s health, legacy, and what’s next
- MHMaggie Haberman
why? I don't know. It doesn't, you know, doesn't mean that there is some dark secret. It just, he doesn't Like any... It's an area that really he doesn't want people going to, in, in part because he sees illness as, as weak. Uh, he is constantly worried about getting sick. Um, you know, there was an amazing moment in term one where George Stephanopoulos was doing some hours-long project, uh, with Trump of, of just a news recording project, and Mick Mulvaney was in the background and the, the White House chief of staff, and, and Mulvaney starts coughing. And Trump was like, "Get out of here if you're sick. Get out of here," and it was all on camera. Um, that's a pretty pervasive attitude. But he, yes, he is 80. He obviously looks older than he used to. He sounds older than he used to. His voice is slower. His, um, his, his language is less crisp. Uh, you know, I can-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... watch the same video as everybody else does from 10 years ago.
- KSKara Swisher
Sleeping.
- MHMaggie Haberman
Um, but we don't know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MHMaggie Haberman
... we don't know what we don't know. And, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... he has gone to Walter Reed more often, uh, with less information being released. Uh, I think presidents in general have-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, a desire not to be seen as weak in terms-
- KSKara Swisher
I get it
- MHMaggie Haberman
... of illness. I do. I mean, and I also think-
- KSKara Swisher
I am astonished that we don't have this information, uh, for any president, including this one-
- MHMaggie Haberman
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... who's clearly aging
- MHMaggie Haberman
... I mean, I think that there, I think that there is a, I, I think this is true for all public officials. I, I, I-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... personally am of the opinion either party, um, presidency-
- KSKara Swisher
Independent
- MHMaggie Haberman
... Congress members, anybody. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... you know, if, if, if you have a, a condition that is impairing your ability to serve, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- MHMaggie Haberman
... that is not in the public's interest. That doesn't mean I think he does, by the way, Trump's. I'm just saying that this is not something that, um, that any president really is particularly forthcoming with.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, last question. One of the big arguments you make in the book is that it was Democrats' successes in driving Trump from office in 2020 and their support of efforts to hold him accountable that made him, quote, "The most consequential and feared president of our lifetimes." In other words, the, it egged him on to, to get s- One of the things you say is stay out of prison, the other is to make money, the third is to have a do-over here. For Democrats, what are the risks that come with aggressively going after Trump again should they retake power?
- JSJonathan Swan
Well, I don't think it's really a disputable premise. The point was that if Trump had have served a consecutive second term, it just would be nothing like this term. He was hobbling along at the end of 2020, and if he eked out a narrow victory in that election, he would've had to deal with all the same stuff Biden did, COVID, inflation. You know, the notion that he would've avoided global, the global inflation, I mean, okay, fine. Uh, you can claim that, but it's not really plausible. Uh, he would've had to withdraw from Afghanistan, which he was trying to do, um, on a precipitous timeline. So that was the argument. He, instead, he leaves power, the public sours on Biden, and Trump gets built up as this almost mythological figure through four indictments, you know, the assassination attempt, holding up the fist, the blood coming down the face. He became a larger figure. He was enlarged by all of this, and, and had time during the interregnum for his team-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
- JSJonathan Swan
... to really prepare for what they want to do, people like Stephen Miller. So I don't think that's disputable. That's just-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm
Episode duration: 56:31
In the uListen app, the transcript lights up word by word as you listen. Get uListen
Transcript of episode tLLOvFH1siA
