208 - Tragedy, grief, healing, and finding happiness | Kelsey Chittick

1. 0:00 – 0:08

   Intro

   1. PAPeter Attia0:00

      [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]

2. 0:08 – 6:18

   Kelsey’s childhood in Florida as an athlete

   1. PAPeter Attia0:10

      Hey, Kelsey. Thanks so much for making the time to come all the way to Austin. I really appreciate it. Although I'm not gonna take credit for the fact that you came here for this. I think this was, uh, [chuckles] an opportunistic time to sit down.

   2. KCKelsey Chittick0:18

      For sure. I mean, I, I definitely did come here for this, and there are some other great people here that, um, I get to visit. It's perfect, so thank you for having me.

   3. PAPeter Attia0:26

      Yeah. I know my wife is really upset that you don't live here.

   4. KCKelsey Chittick0:30

      You know, it's funny because I went out with them last night, and there's this draw to this place because there's a lot of good people here. And I think during COVID I, I understood why everybody was leaving, and I really couldn't stand LA, and there was just a thousand reasons the past couple years have been hard. But all of a sudden, suddenly I really love LA again, so I'm gonna hold on and just, just visit you guys every month.

   5. PAPeter Attia0:51

      Very well.

   6. KCKelsey Chittick0:51

      That's the plan.

   7. PAPeter Attia0:53

      So where'd you grow up?

   8. KCKelsey Chittick0:55

      I grew up in Winter Park, Florida.

   9. PAPeter Attia0:58

      Got it. Okay. And when did you start swimming?

   10. KCKelsey Chittick1:01

       I was probably four, and I probably raced in my first race at six.

   11. PAPeter Attia1:05

       Wow. So when did you realize you were a good enough swimmer to be a collegiate swimmer?

   12. KCKelsey Chittick1:11

       You know, it's funny. We talk about this with sports and kids these days. It just wasn't on our radar the way it is for kids now. Um, I lived in Florida. You wanted to be outside. You wanted to be with your friends, so we swam. And, uh, little by little, I, you know, I'd win a few races, 25 butterfly, something on backstroke, and it was just something fun to do with your friends. So I don't even remember thinking about college until maybe ninth grade when I won... I, I think we got second at state, and then my sophomore year I won state. And-

   13. PAPeter Attia1:41

       In what event?

   14. KCKelsey Chittick1:42

       100 back and 100 fly.

   15. PAPeter Attia1:44

       Hmm.

   16. KCKelsey Chittick1:45

       Um, and-

   17. PAPeter Attia1:45

       Did you swim IM as well?

   18. KCKelsey Chittick1:47

       I didn't. I was terrible at breaststroke.

   19. PAPeter Attia1:48

       Okay.

   20. KCKelsey Chittick1:49

       Horrible. There's a bunch of jokes about that we could go into, but I won't right now. Yeah, I don't... I remember thinking like, "Oh, wow, that's great," like I just won Florida's, you know, state championships, but I also remember just loving my team and that like Winter Park High School won. And at that point, you really didn't talk to coaches. There- You didn't know recruiting, especially female athletes. It wasn't huge back then to get a scholarship.

   21. PAPeter Attia2:11

       This was pre-Title IX?

   22. KCKelsey Chittick2:12

       I g-

   23. PAPeter Attia2:13

       Or what? I'm trying to think.

   24. KCKelsey Chittick2:14

       I've gotta look that up 'cause I, I mess that fact up all the time. I feel like there weren't a lot of people I'd ever met that had a scholarship that were girls.

   25. PAPeter Attia2:21

       Mm-hmm.

   26. KCKelsey Chittick2:22

       Um, and so it wasn't until maybe my junior year that my coach said, "You know, a couple coaches have called and said that, you know, you could get a scholarship." And my family wasn't into sports. They just didn't even... I mean, they came to my swim meets but not really. A lot of, um, they just weren't-- Everybody did their own thing in our family. It was not how parents are now that are driving their kids and doing special coaches and meets and stuff like that. So all I remember it was just I had a lot of energy to burn off, and swimming was the one thing that after I was done I felt like I burned that jet fuel off. That's all I remember really. And then it just got better, and then coaches started to talk to me. Um, and then the rest is kind of history.

   27. PAPeter Attia3:03

       So what do you remember about getting to, uh, it was UNC you went to, right?

   28. KCKelsey Chittick3:06

       Chapel Hill.

   29. PAPeter Attia3:07

       Obviously, yeah, so.

   30. KCKelsey Chittick3:07

       So I remember I went to s- to a basketball game with one of my girlfriends whose dad had gone there. Maybe this was my junior year. And long story short, but he, his, her brother dated the swim coach's daughter, and so at the basketball game, which is huge in Chapel Hill, it might've been a Duke-Carolina game. I don't know. But I remember it was a big deal, and someone said, "Oh, Carolina's impossible to get in out of state." And I thought, "Well then, I'm definitely gonna try to get in out of state." Um, and so I, I met the swim coach, and he said, "You know, call me when you're... the end of your junior year or when you're a senior." And I tried to get in. I don't think I got into Carolina at first, and they had already given a scholarship to a girl from Ohio. She was gonna swim 200 backstroke, 100 backstroke. So I got an offer from Miami, FSU, and I think Florida, but I, I wanted to get out of Florida so badly 'cause everybody I knew was going there, and I was like, "I wanna have a new experience." And so I just held, and then that spring the girl, uh, decided to go somewhere else, and so they gave me a part-
3. 6:18 – 11:39

   Meeting Nate and early relationship with him

   1. PAPeter Attia6:18

      Okay. So what year did you meet Nate?

   2. KCKelsey Chittick6:21

      So I met Nate in 1990-- '98. So the summer-

   3. PAPeter Attia6:26

      So you were kind of a junior then?

   4. KCKelsey Chittick6:27

      I was going into my junior year.

   5. PAPeter Attia6:29

      Okay.

   6. KCKelsey Chittick6:29

      I think I-- And I, I met him the summer of 1998, and I had just finished my sophomore year swimming, and I was just kind of a hot mess. I'd gained a ton of weight. I ate, like, cream cheese and croissant sandwiches 'cause we were-- had, like, um, what's it called? Training table. I just really let it fly with penny draft and just nights out, just my face and my body was just not, not primed for winning anything.

   7. PAPeter Attia6:57

      [laughs]

   8. KCKelsey Chittick6:58

      Um, started dating a guy who had a, a weed problem and, you know, I kind of dabbled in that very little, but I, I was, I was running with a crowd that wasn't conducive to being excellent.

   9. PAPeter Attia7:10

      Well, so you didn't hang with most of the swimmers?

   10. KCKelsey Chittick7:12

       I did. He was on the swim team, so yeah.

   11. PAPeter Attia7:13

       Oh, he was on the swim team. Okay. I was gonna say, I, I would assume the swimmers would date a lot each other 'cause you have the same schedules-

   12. KCKelsey Chittick7:17

       Yeah

   13. PAPeter Attia7:17

       ... and the training and yeah.

   14. KCKelsey Chittick7:18

       And at Carolina at the time, you couldn't rush a sorority or fraternity-

   15. PAPeter Attia7:21

       Yeah

   16. KCKelsey Chittick7:21

       ... if you were on a swim, if you were on a athletic team. So basically, they had you. That was your group. Um, so I was really kind of insular with the swim team. I, I didn't love it so much as I did in high school. I didn't love that I felt like my, that my scholarship was depending on it, that all of my friends did the same thing 'cause in high school, we all had 12 girlfriends, but everybody was different. I was the swimmer, one was the nerd, one was the smart one, one was the party one, and once I got to Chapel Hill, we were all s- fighting for NT2As or for the spot on the relay. So it was just a different experience. So I dated this guy for a while, and then my summer before my junior year, I met Nate at a bar.

   17. PAPeter Attia7:58

       And had-- Was Nate a senior at that point? Or did he-

   18. KCKelsey Chittick8:01

       He was going into his fifth-year senior year.

   19. PAPeter Attia8:03

       Yeah, 'cause he redshirted his first year.

   20. KCKelsey Chittick8:04

       Yep.

   21. PAPeter Attia8:04

       Yeah. Okay.

   22. KCKelsey Chittick8:05

       He was going into his fifth year, and I met him at a bar, and, um, I just remember him walking in and just a absolute h- enormous man with more confidence than you've ever seen in your life, more swagger for a huge fat guy that you couldn't-- [chuckles] I mean, unbelievable. And I met him that night, and he, he gave me this napkin that said, "If you want the best, say goodbye to the rest. Go home with me, and I'll make you happy." And I mean, I was like, "What?" But the funny part is, years later, I met a girl at a wedding, and she's like, "You won't believe it. I know you're married to Nate Hobgood-Chittick, but he left me a napkin one time in college," and I was like, "Mother of God." [both laughing] Um, but yeah, I met him that night, and then we didn't really, we didn't see each other for a while. Um, it, but it turned out one of my roommates was dating a guy on the offensive line named Ryan, and so a couple months later, we had a house party where we watched X-Files, which is a great thing, and just everybody partied and got drunk and danced, and Nate was there. And at some point that night, a guy called that I was dating, and Nate just walked over and took the phone and was like, "She's with me now."

   23. PAPeter Attia9:11

       [laughs]

   24. KCKelsey Chittick9:13

       And, and, and that was it.

   25. PAPeter Attia9:15

       Wow. So what is it that you liked about him in that moment? Because on the one hand, it sounds like you were kind of amused, but-

   26. KCKelsey Chittick9:20

       Yeah

   27. PAPeter Attia9:20

       ... but I mean, what did you see at that moment?

   28. KCKelsey Chittick9:23

       I mean, from the minute I met him, if I'm honest, like, I knew there was something, and he was nothing. I grew up in a-- My father's a lawyer. My mom was very politically active, uh, country club, you know, very kind of rigid, you know, very-- Lots of, um... My town was very Southern and Christian, and, um, when I met Nate, he was so different. He was, like, a poor kid from Allentown, just a, a guy that hustled, and I just felt he was different. He was connected. Like, when he'd sit and listen to you, you felt like you were the most important person in the world, and he did it with everybody. I could see how he interacted. There was a way when he walked into a room that you could tell everybody loved him, and he loved them. Um, so I knew that first night something was different about him, and then the n- the night that we kind of started dating, there was just a joy to Nate that was different and an extreme way of living, which was concerning then and concerned me my entire life with him, but he was here for the moment. He was here to have a good time and feel it all, experience it all. Um, most loving human being you'll ever meet, truthfully. So I couldn't understand how I was attracted to him 'cause it just didn't match anything that I had imagined. Um, but when we started talking, the things he was talking about were the same thing as me, like, "What do you wanna do with your life? Who do you wanna be? What books have you read? Um, what type of spiritual practices do you have?" And we were, you know, 19 and 22, and I remember he was on this deep search for meaning and purpose and how do we serve? How do we get the most out of this life? Um, and so we kind of both started on a spiritual journey a-at a very young age, and that's what I loved about him always. So married a really fat 300-pound amazing defensive tackle.

   29. PAPeter Attia11:11

       What year did you guys get married?

   30. KCKelsey Chittick11:13

       We got married in 2002. We got engaged at the World Trade Center in 2001 in July.
4. 11:39 – 16:45

   Nate’s unbelievable work ethic and desire to play in the NFL

   1. PAPeter Attia11:39

      So, you know, Nate was not the guy who was gonna get drafted in the first round. So what was your thinking as you were saying, "Okay, I'm really serious about this guy," and he wanted to play in the NFL. Like, like, who doesn't play college football and wants to play in the NFL?

   2. KCKelsey Chittick11:53

      Right.

   3. PAPeter Attia11:53

      So what were you thinking about h-um, his chances and, you know, obviously he had an amazing work ethic. How far did you think that that was You know, did you actually think that could get him out of college football?

   4. KCKelsey Chittick12:04

      I, I actually can hear him laughing. I, I was like, "You'll never make it," which was always what I'd say to him. Like, the worst.

   5. PAPeter Attia12:09

      [laughs]

   6. KCKelsey Chittick12:10

      I would be like, "You don't have a shot in hell. Like, you haven't started." And he was like, "I'll just work my way. If I can just get a shot..." He was always like, "If I can just get a shot." And so truthfully, when the draft came, I had never-- I had seen him play in college, but he wasn't a starter. He started-

   7. PAPeter Attia12:24

      He almost lost his scholarship, didn't he?

   8. KCKelsey Chittick12:26

      Yeah, he almost lost it and h- uh, Mack Brown was the coach, and he was like, "Listen, buddy, this isn't gonna work for you." Like, he just-

   9. PAPeter Attia12:31

      I think he was, like, fourth on the depth chart or something, right?

   10. KCKelsey Chittick12:32

       Yeah, he was behind, like, Vonnie Holiday and some other-- I can't remember. Dre Bly. It was just a big year at Chapel Hill.

   11. PAPeter Attia12:37

       Yeah.

   12. KCKelsey Chittick12:37

       We beat FSU, and I remember just thinking, like, it's not gonna happen. But we were young, and I didn't, you know, I still had a year and a half of school. And so I remember he went to the combine, and he, he had a really fast 40, and he h- he had a good combine. And Carolina had had a great year, so he was backup to some guys that were going first and second round. Um, but truthfully, the day of the draft, I didn't even understand it. And our family's, his family too, not into football. My family not into football. Actually thought it was an archaic sport, both sides. Academics on both sides. Um, and Nate was like, "If I could just get a chance on a practice squad, then I could make it, and then we could save a little bit of money, and then we could maybe buy a house someday." I mean, that was pretty much the way we thought of it. Um, so when he got called by the Giants to be on the practice squad, everybody was shocked, but also knew that there was nobody that made the good guys try harder than a guy like Nate, 'cause he would just literally go until he couldn't. So I think I was surprised, and it was more just we were young. I was like, "Good luck. Like, hope you make the team." But we-- I wasn't ever that invested in his career. Um, I just wanted him to do it and get out safe and then make some money so that we could start our real life.

   13. PAPeter Attia13:51

       So did you know Jeff Saturday when they were roommates? Like, you must have-

   14. KCKelsey Chittick13:54

       Oh, yeah.

   15. PAPeter Attia13:55

       Yeah.

   16. KCKelsey Chittick13:55

       Oh, yeah. I mean, Jeff's still one of my best friends, and his wife. So we all lived together. Jeff and Nate lived together from freshman year. And I mean, the story about Jeff is-

   17. PAPeter Attia14:04

       Yeah, tell that story. I mean, that's, that's just a, it's an amazing story. W- especially in light of what Jeff Saturday went on to become, right?

   18. KCKelsey Chittick14:09

       Yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia14:10

       One of the greatest centers of the game. And to think that he got overlooked and then, yeah, so-

   20. KCKelsey Chittick14:14

       Yeah

   21. PAPeter Attia14:14

       ... tell people how that happened.

   22. KCKelsey Chittick14:15

       So Jeff and Nate were roommates freshman year, and Jeff tells this great story about when he first met Nate, um, he, he went to introduce himself, but Nate was sobbing, hugging his parents. And he was like, "Wait, I'm, I'm, like, gonna be rooming with this, like, crybaby? Like, what's happening?" Jeff's a guy from Georgia, grew up kind of a rough life, very tough, and they ended up being best friends. They played together, along with Chris Keldorff, who was up for the Heisman. There was a group of them. And when we all were waiting for the draft, Chris had been the quarterback and Jeff was the center, and we were certain they were gonna go in fourth round, fifth round. And we all just sat there, and you kind of just sit around back then and just wait for the phone to ring. And there's no cell phones or anything. And nobody called, nobody called, nobody called. And then the only person that got called was Nate. So Nate went on to the Giants and got on the practice squad and barely made it through that first cut, but he made it, and then he got released by the Giants, and the Colts picked him up right away. So Nate moved to Indianapolis, and at that time, Jeff was, wasn't sure. He, I think he got a shot at Baltimore on a practice squad but didn't make it. So he came back to North Carolina, started working at, like, a Pep Boys. And they didn't think he had a shot. It was kind of over. He was too short. I mean, Nate used to always tell him, and Jeff, if you're listening, they said, you know, "He has short arms. He'll never make it as a center." And they wrote all these awful things about him. And Nate just always went up against him in practice for four years, and he was like, "He's the best fucking guy I've ever played against." So at some point, Nate was still barely making the Colts, trying to just get, you know, you only get paid week by week if you make the team and if you play. So it's not how people think. And so at one point, Nate said he had a really tough practice, and the guys that he played against, he's like, "I just walked away being like, 'Those guys aren't even close to what Jeff did.'" So he walked into Polian's office in, like, dirty sweats. Polian doesn't even know who he is. He has no clue. He's like, "Who is this guy?" 'cause he's just, like, a guy trying to make the team. And he said, "There's a guy in Raleigh, North Carolina, that's working at an auto parts store right now. His name's Jeff Saturday, and he could kick all those guys' asses that I just played." And coach said, "Well, if you want him to come live with you, I'll give him a shot." And then that was it.

   23. PAPeter Attia16:23

       Yeah. And the rest is history. Six Pro Bowls or whatever it is, Super Bowl.

   24. KCKelsey Chittick16:26

       Yeah, he'll be a Hall of Famer. And I still get mad because Nate and I are like, "And he got us a comforter for our wedding." Like, we're like-

   25. PAPeter Attia16:31

       [laughs]

   26. KCKelsey Chittick16:31

       ... "Hey, buddy, like, we kinda started your whole career, and all we got was, like-"

   27. PAPeter Attia16:35

       All we got this lousy comforter.

   28. KCKelsey Chittick16:35

       Yeah, we were like-

   29. PAPeter Attia16:36

       It was like a T-shirt, right? Yeah

   30. KCKelsey Chittick16:36

       ... "We're looking for more. We're looking for more."
5. 16:45 – 24:00

   Life with a professional football player, playing through pain, and head injuries related to football

   1. PAPeter Attia16:45

      let's go back to, let's start at '99, right? So you're with the Rams. You're in St. Louis. I remember this year very well-

   2. KCKelsey Chittick16:51

      Yep

   3. PAPeter Attia16:51

      ... because, I mean, Kurt Warner, of course-

   4. KCKelsey Chittick16:54

      Yes

   5. PAPeter Attia16:54

      ... you know, the whole story. So at the beginning of that playoff run, did you think this is really gonna happen? Were you-

   6. KCKelsey Chittick17:00

      Yeah, the, it was really fun. For the first time, I was like, "Oh, this is fun." And we were winning. Um, I was still in college, so I would fly-

   7. PAPeter Attia17:07

      Oh, that's right. You, this would've been your senior year.

   8. KCKelsey Chittick17:09

      Ninety-nine, yeah.

   9. PAPeter Attia17:10

      Yeah.

   10. KCKelsey Chittick17:10

       So I was still in college, and it was, it was just fun. And we were winning, and we were winning, and Kurt was an exceptional leader, spiritually, emotionally, everything. And the team just had a bunch of really good guys on it, and it was fun to be a part of that team. And I think y- I've always felt like the energy matters the most, and there was something that was telling us, "The energy on this team is good." So every time they won, you just, now it gets more, you're like, "Please win. Please win." Then you're like, "Pl-" really 'cause you know that this, this may never come again, and most of the time it doesn't. And we had Dick Vermeil as a coach, who's still probably-

   11. PAPeter Attia17:45

       Epic

   12. KCKelsey Chittick17:45

       ... one of the greatest humans-

   13. PAPeter Attia17:46

       Yeah

   14. KCKelsey Chittick17:46

       ... to me, and still continues to come to my house twice a year to see the kids and just have dinner with us.

   15. PAPeter Attia17:51

       Mm.

   16. KCKelsey Chittick17:52

       Just an exceptional advocate for his players as human beings, way past, you know, their football. Um, Nate loved him, and he was the one that gave Nate a shot multiple times just because of his character, 'cause Dick's like, "He's not that good, but he really makes the other good guys better." Um, so that year was just exceptional, and it was fun, and St. Louis was on fire, and that, that city needed it. And I remember when we made it to the last... I- I'm the worst about football, the last playoff game. Whatever happened last night that we all just watched.

   17. PAPeter Attia18:22

       Yeah, yeah, the divisional championship.

   18. KCKelsey Chittick18:24

       Right.

   19. PAPeter Attia18:24

       Yeah.

   20. KCKelsey Chittick18:24

       Um, I was like, "Oh my God, we could, we could win the Super Bowl." But I was young, and I... So I got there and I was wearing some, like, nerd outfit, and all the other NFL wives were, like, smoking hot and looking so cool, and I think I had, like, my backpack.

   21. PAPeter Attia18:37

       [laughs]

   22. KCKelsey Chittick18:37

       But I just didn't know. We didn't, we weren't into it like that. And I remember the last play came, and it was that big play where Mike Jones was tackled. I forget who. I forget.

   23. PAPeter Attia18:48

       I don't remember.

   24. KCKelsey Chittick18:49

       Anyways, it was that last second, and I remember thinking, and I told Nate this, and he was very offended. I was like, "Whatever you do, don't put Nate in."

   25. PAPeter Attia18:55

       [laughs]

   26. KCKelsey Chittick18:55

       Like, "Please don't put him in," because I didn't want him to be the guy that, like-

   27. PAPeter Attia18:59

       If they lost, you didn't want him in

   28. KCKelsey Chittick19:00

       ... If they lost, I was like, "I can't live with it." But they tackled the guy before he got in the end zone, and the Rams won, and it was just exceptional. It was an exceptional experience, and there's, I don't know if you know this, but they have two parties for both the teams, just one's a lot more fun. They're identical. So each team has a hotel-

   29. PAPeter Attia19:17

       No, I didn't know that. Mm

   30. KCKelsey Chittick19:17

       ... and each team has the same exact party ready, but one's just-
6. 24:00 – 30:00

   Nate’s final days of football and early retirement struggles

   1. KCKelsey Chittick24:00

      be stopped.

   2. PAPeter Attia24:01

      So you guys married in '02?

   3. KCKelsey Chittick24:02

      Married in '02.

   4. PAPeter Attia24:03

      And then he retired in '02 or '03?

   5. KCKelsey Chittick24:06

      He retired, um, right before my son was born, so I think '04.

   6. PAPeter Attia24:11

      Oh, okay. All right. So was that a happy day for you?

   7. KCKelsey Chittick24:16

      It was mixed.

   8. PAPeter Attia24:17

      How so?

   9. KCKelsey Chittick24:17

      It was, um... Well, he didn't have a job.

   10. PAPeter Attia24:20

       Mm.

   11. KCKelsey Chittick24:20

       He didn't have a lot of life skills. Emails had just started. We had just started, technology was not Nate's jam. Um, he lived in a, in this, in a world way up in, way up in the sky. He lived in big dreams and big hopes, and I was like, "We have a baby on the way, and, like, what are you gonna do for a living?" I was a pharmaceutical sales rep, which was not my ideal job, but it was a great job to have coming out of college. I didn't know what he was gonna do, and I think a lot of guys when they transition out of football, most of them only play three to four or five years. You kind of just get dropped into the world again, and all your friends that you went to college with, they've been working for five or six years, and you now are starting at an entry level job, well, like maybe 40,000 a year. You're used to making that a week. You're used to everyone worshiping you. It's a huge transition to, for these guys.

   12. PAPeter Attia25:09

       Yeah, people, uh, it- it's very easy if you're not mindful of it to lose sight of what the median experience is like in the NFL.

   13. KCKelsey Chittick25:20

       Right.

   14. PAPeter Attia25:20

       Right? Not the mean, right? Because the mean gets dragged up by the Tom Bradys, Aaron Rodgers, you know, the guys that have remarkable longevity, remarkable skill, make a remarkable amount of money. But if you talk median, like, what's the guy right in the middle, the 50th percentile guy, yeah, he might be in the league for three years.

   15. KCKelsey Chittick25:39

       Maybe.

   16. PAPeter Attia25:40

       Right? He might have made a million or two over three years before-

   17. KCKelsey Chittick25:46

       Maybe

   18. PAPeter Attia25:46

       ... taxes, before paying agents, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. And then the other thing is what did that do to his life expectancy statistically?

   19. KCKelsey Chittick25:54

       Right.

   20. PAPeter Attia25:54

       Just how many years did he pay for that? Um, and when you look at it that way, you know, it's sort of like any sport, right? I mean, uh, I shouldn't say any sport. I think football is one of the worst. Boxing would be another example, right? It's very easy to see the guys at the top of that, but the pyramid that those guys stand on is a base this wide that's getting crushed.

   21. KCKelsey Chittick26:16

       Yeah, and I think, and, um, I mean, obviously last, the last four games that we've watched the past two weeks have given me this, this dual experience that I continue to have around football. Um, that it is this great unifier and this great community builder and this, this wonderful thing that brings people together and brings a bunch of people joy, and it brings the players a lot of opportunities and a lot of gifts and gives their families a ton of things. And then there's this whole other side that we don't see a ton of, which is the guys that play three years and are still beat up, or they don't have any money, or they couldn't transition. Um, I don't know, I, I don't know how to, I, and especially after the past two weekends watching these playoff games, they were so fun, and it, it made you love football, and it made you see this is a great thing, and I would never let my kid play. And, you know, I would never have a kid in a helmet. But I don't, I, I used to think I had all the answers about certain things and that I had, you know, a really strong opinion one way or the other, and I'm probably more conflicted about a lot of things in life than I ever was, and maybe that's a good thing. Um, but I feel conflicted about football, and I, I can't speak for Nate because he's not here, but I would love to hear what he has to say, what his perspective was. Um, I know what his buddy's perp- perspective is, and I, I do think that it's, that a lot of them, it's, it's a great honor to play that sport, and it's like the, you're like the king of, of, of what everybody wants to do. You know? You, you get this opportunity that kids dream of, but there is a price, and we don't really show that side of it. We don't tell kids, like, "What's that guy doing 10 years later?" Like, we don't do ESPN, um, spotlights on that.

   22. PAPeter Attia28:01

       Right. Remember when MTV used to always do that?

   23. KCKelsey Chittick28:04

       Where are they now?

   24. PAPeter Attia28:05

       Where are they now? [laughs]

   25. KCKelsey Chittick28:05

       [laughs] Oh my God.

   26. PAPeter Attia28:06

       This was l- my roommate in med school.

   27. KCKelsey Chittick28:08

       Yes.

   28. PAPeter Attia28:08

       This was our, this was the only thing we would watch on TV every single week. We would never miss it. And what we loved about it was it was always the same story. You could just plug in a new name of a band. Like, this week it's Mötley Crüe.

   29. KCKelsey Chittick28:21

       Right.

   30. PAPeter Attia28:21

       This week it's Guns N' Roses, but guess what? It's the same story.
7. 30:00 – 37:24

   The tough transition from the NFL to a “regular life” and how Nate found a way to serve others

   1. KCKelsey Chittick30:00

      the world. And so once he got cut, we moved back, and we moved into El Segundo. Pretty quickly after that, we got pregnant, and he went back-

   2. PAPeter Attia30:10

      Both of you?

   3. KCKelsey Chittick30:11

      Both of us got pregnant. [laughs] Nate, Nate looked pregnant.

   4. PAPeter Attia30:13

      [laughs]

   5. KCKelsey Chittick30:14

      I, I looked really pregnant. So we lived in El Segundo. He went back and got his master's in social work.

   6. PAPeter Attia30:20

      Yeah. Did that, uh, did that surprise you that, um... I mean, in, in a way I'm sure it didn't because of how much he loved the world and wanted to help people.

   7. KCKelsey Chittick30:27

      Yeah.

   8. PAPeter Attia30:27

      But did it surprise you that that was the chosen path?

   9. KCKelsey Chittick30:30

      So he comes, so his dad was a minister at Harvard, and his mom was a professor at Holy Cross. Um, so he comes from an academic kinda service-oriented family. That was, if like some kids are told to be bankers, he was told to serve.

   10. PAPeter Attia30:43

       Mm.

   11. KCKelsey Chittick30:43

       So that was pretty much in his soul. So I don't know. And he didn't have a ton of skillsets. I, I don't-

   12. PAPeter Attia30:49

       What did he study in college?

   13. KCKelsey Chittick30:50

       Like every good Nor-

   14. PAPeter Attia30:51

       Everything. He studied football.

   15. KCKelsey Chittick30:52

       No, he studied communications like we all did.

   16. PAPeter Attia30:54

       Communications, got it.

   17. KCKelsey Chittick30:54

       Along with the help of many people.

   18. PAPeter Attia30:56

       Mm. [laughs]

   19. KCKelsey Chittick30:56

       Um, [laughs] that's back in the day. So yeah, we, we didn't, he didn't have any, he didn't, he hadn't had an email. Everything when you're in the NFL-

   20. PAPeter Attia31:04

       By the way, [laughs] that reminds me of a funny story. It, [laughs] I, I'm gonna try not to name names here 'cause it's not fair, but-

   21. KCKelsey Chittick31:09

       Please, just make up a pseudonym.

   22. PAPeter Attia31:10

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so, so about the, I don't know. I won't even tell what year 'cause then you could figure out who it was. But years ago, a few years ago, [lips smack] um, I was helping out a buddy who wanted me to come and do some work with the kids who were going to be probably the top 10 picks out of college. So-

   23. KCKelsey Chittick31:31

       Okay

   24. PAPeter Attia31:32

       ... had the potential to be, so meaning they all went in the first two rounds, [lips smack] including a Heisman Trophy winner. So there's 10 of us there, [clears throat] the guy who brings me in to help [clears throat] me, [lips smack] and then there's these 10 kids, some of whom are playing right now and are the best in the NFL.

   25. KCKelsey Chittick31:46

       Right.

   26. PAPeter Attia31:47

       And so the guy who had me come and talk to them, he's like, "Hey look, you know, we did some blood work on them. We wanna talk about nutrition. We wanna talk about, you know, like what can they do to optimize their performance?" So he, he brings me to this conference room, it's beautiful, and it's in Petco Park in San Diego, which is where everyone was meeting. And you know, I'm starting to try to explain like some of the biochemistry. But, and I'm keeping it, I'm not, believe me, I'm not going all in on this, right?

   27. KCKelsey Chittick32:10

       [laughs]

   28. PAPeter Attia32:10

       I'm just doing like, "You know glucose?"

   29. KCKelsey Chittick32:13

       You know glucose, right guys?

   30. PAPeter Attia32:14

       Right, something, right. [laughs] And-
8. 37:24 – 40:19

   Nate’s struggle with his weight and overall health after retirement

   1. PAPeter Attia37:24

      And when did you guys start to have those discussions about, "Hey, where's the 230-pound version of you who's kind of getting back into what, you know, you had sort of imagined-

   2. KCKelsey Chittick37:35

      Yeah

   3. PAPeter Attia37:35

      ... life post-NFL would look like?"

   4. KCKelsey Chittick37:37

      I mean, day one. I mean, I rode that man so hard for his whole life. He could take more beatings from me verbally and from coaches and teams. I just, I was tough. I, I was like, "You, you're, this is not gonna work. You, you don't look good. You're not healthy." And he would, he, he was always, he wanted to be better. And so he would have times when he would get really in shape, and he was probably the guy in our neighborhood that everybody listened to health-wise because he had all the information. There was just certain things he, he, you know, he would g- he would always do, like, sober January, February, and then he was, and when the sun would come out again, get a little dicey March, April. By the summer, he was full bore just having a ball, and then forget about it. Once the Yankees started, wheels were off. And we would cycle through that.

   5. PAPeter Attia38:20

      Did he ever go visit a doctor during this period of time?

   6. KCKelsey Chittick38:23

      So the NFL has a program where you go once a year. So y- I, I don't know the details on this, so don't hold me on this, but you either, you sign something where you either say you'll never sue them again, and we'll give you care. Like, you go every year to an NFL, um, some type of physical, or you can do your own thing, but we're not gonna take care. I, I don't know the details, but we chose the one where we, we took some money. You take a lump sum of something, uh, and then you can't ever sue them about certain things, and then they kind of put you in a program where they check in with you every year mentally, physically.

   7. PAPeter Attia38:55

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KCKelsey Chittick38:56

      And so he would do that. But I, now looking back, I actually found his records from his last year, and he had told me, like, everything was fine. And then I, everything was fine except for this one page that was so not fine, um, which was his heart and his cholesterol and his weight. And we didn't really talk about that. I mean, one thing I think if I could go back and do different things in my marriage, I would have had a different tactic 'cause I think I g- I was so scared that I was mean, and then it didn't feel safe for him to tell me the truth, so he just put it aside and was like, "I'll, I'll deal with that. I'll take care of it, but I'm not gonna get into it with her." Um, but I always wanted him to be skinnier, and his mom, I mean, it was the biggest thing that his mom used to say to him, was like, "Please lose the weight. Please lose the weight." But it was really hard for him.

   9. PAPeter Attia39:42

      Was he still exercising, lifting-

   10. KCKelsey Chittick39:44

       Oh, yeah

   11. PAPeter Attia39:44

       ... weights and things like that?

   12. KCKelsey Chittick39:45

       He always worked out. Very physical, very athletic. I mean, he was, he was still really good. We played football every Thanksgiving in El Segundo, and he was great. He, fast, talented, strong.

   13. PAPeter Attia39:55

       Yeah, people don't appreciate that you'd think, well, what's a defensive lineman or defensive tackle like? They're so big, but they can't be that fast. They are so fast. [laughs]

   14. KCKelsey Chittick40:03

       He was the most athletic man I've ever seen. He could, he was the strongest man I've ever seen, and he had a work ethic physically that he, he would just, he could go forever. He could also rest forever, too. He was extreme in every, in every way, good and bad.

9. 40:19 – 50:09

   Kelsey’s anxiety and premonitions of Nate’s impending death, and Nate’s changing demeanor

   1. PAPeter Attia40:20

      So your daughter was born in what year?

   2. KCKelsey Chittick40:22

      2008.

   3. PAPeter Attia40:24

      Got it. Okay. So fast-forward to November of 2017.

   4. KCKelsey Chittick40:32

      Yeah.

   5. PAPeter Attia40:34

      You had some premonitions that something-

   6. KCKelsey Chittick40:37

      Mm-hmm

   7. PAPeter Attia40:37

      ... wasn't right. I mean, how, how much of that do you think you now look back at and think, "I, I can only appreciate this now through the retrospective scope," versus at the time did you think, "There's something wrong with me. Like, I'm really losing it"?

   8. KCKelsey Chittick40:54

      Mm-hmm. Well, there's two parts to that. My friends will tell you, "You were very vocal something was wrong." So I have witnesses that remember for about two or three years, like, "Something's wrong with her. She can't settle. She's anxious." And I would say, "I don't know what's wrong. Something's not right." And I was so scared. I was nervous. Um, travel had become just really-

   9. PAPeter Attia41:18

      What were you doing at the time? Were you still working as a pharma rep?

   10. KCKelsey Chittick41:19

       So I was working at Chapel Hill.

   11. PAPeter Attia41:21

       Okay.

   12. KCKelsey Chittick41:21

       Um, no, I was working in recruiting.

   13. PAPeter Attia41:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. KCKelsey Chittick41:23

       In medical recruiting, and so the, the team that I had in Chapel Hill was a group of guys that I'd gone to college with that played football. And so I would go back every month 'cause my team was there. And for years, I started in 2012, it was fine. But then around 2014, '15, I started just dreading leaving the family. But it made no sense. The kids were in a great age. Nate was doing great. But my anxiety was through the roof. I'd wake up sweating. I'd wake up-

   15. PAPeter Attia41:50

       And how long each month would you have to be gone?

   16. KCKelsey Chittick41:52

       Maybe three or four days.

   17. PAPeter Attia41:54

       Do you think you were anxious that Nate couldn't handle getting them to school on time? Or what, what, w- what do you think was upsetting you?

   18. KCKelsey Chittick42:02

       I mean, I don't know how woo-woo spiritual I can get here, but I, I felt like something was coming. It's the best way I can describe it. Something's coming, and the message to me was prepare. Like, somehow something's coming that's big. You don't know what it is. I can't explain it, but... And there was something about Nate that was floating away, and I was trying to get to him, and I was also trying to manage this unexplained anxiety That

   19. PAPeter Attia42:30

       Had you ever experienced anxiety growing up? Like, were you an anxious person by nature?

   20. KCKelsey Chittick42:35

       Not-- I mean, I, I wonder what my friends would say. I wasn't anxious, but I, I needed to swim six hours a day. So I don't know, [chuckles] I don't know what that means. I've always, you know-

   21. PAPeter Attia42:42

       You have energy. Yeah

   22. KCKelsey Chittick42:43

       ... yeah, a l- a lot of energy, but I don't remember being nervous or fearful. I wasn't a lot of fun. Like, I wasn't the party girl. I didn't do drugs. I wasn't like, "Let's stay out all night." I was always like, "We need to get home," and very responsible, but I wasn't anxious. But I never was, I never was a let go. I was never like, "Let's just see where, where the wind takes us." Um, but I didn't have panic attacks, and those, you know the nights, the s- the, the nights that are just you can't stop your brain going. Those became more and more and more the two years before he died. Um, and I had this sensation-

   23. PAPeter Attia43:17

       Did you ever talk with him about it?

   24. KCKelsey Chittick43:19

       All the time.

   25. PAPeter Attia43:20

       What would you say?

   26. KCKelsey Chittick43:20

       "Please don't die."

   27. PAPeter Attia43:22

       What would he say?

   28. KCKelsey Chittick43:23

       "I promise I'm not going to. I won't leave you. Don't worry. I w- I'm here." Um, something I would say, like, "I can't live without you." Like, "You're my best friend. You're, you're, like, the only person I know." Like, "You're the best dad in the world." Oh, god, thinking about it. And he would be like, "I'm right here. I'm never gonna leave you." Um, and fast-forward, I, I don't think he has, but, um, in many ways. But yeah, and I j- I just was like, "Nate, I can't, I don't know what's wrong with me." And he's like, "You just need to calm down." He n- and his big thing was just stop being afraid. "What are you so afraid of? You're so..." He used to say, like, "You walk around so afraid of everything. Like, what if you just knew everything was okay?" Like, he's like, "Everything's okay, babe. Like, you're okay. We're okay. The kids are okay." And that was always his message. And there was nights that I would go to bed, and he would be watching a show, and he was always watching something really masculine like Oprah's c- you know, final show, and he'd just be sobbing, you know. And, or Mr. Holland's Opus or some, like, show that just, like, he just-- And he would just cry, and, and I would say w- I'd come out and say, like, "What's wrong?" And he's like, "I just hope I, I hope I have enough time. I hope that I can make a difference in this world." And there c- there came a point where I, I would wake up, and I couldn't find him, and I felt like he was gone, and I'd scream for him, and he would be like, "I'm right here. I'm in the other room." But it-

   29. PAPeter Attia44:39

       You'd literally scream. It wasn't a dream

   30. KCKelsey Chittick44:40

       I literally would. And he, and the only reason I know this is all true is 'cause I would tell my friends, "You guys, I wake up, and I scream, and I feel like Nate's gone." And he always comes in, and he says, "I'm right here. Don't worry about it." But so those things started to happen, and, and in conjunction with that, I said, "Well, I need help." So that's when I started to really dig into self-help and spiritual books, and I was like, "Where is-- There's gotta be an answer here." And it turns out there wasn't an answer, but there was a huge toolkit I was about to be given for what I think I knew was coming.
10. 50:09 – 56:37

    The traumatic experience of learning of Nate’s death during her own spiritual journey to Jamaica

    1. KCKelsey Chittick50:09

       so you want me to keep going with the Jamaica story?

    2. PAPeter Attia50:11

       Yeah. So it's, it's-

    3. KCKelsey Chittick50:13

       So it's November

    4. PAPeter Attia50:13

       ... early November-

    5. KCKelsey Chittick50:14

       Mm-hmm

    6. PAPeter Attia50:14

       ... of 2017, and you don't wanna go on this trip.

    7. KCKelsey Chittick50:19

       Right. So we go to New York about a month before for a birthday, and I have probably the biggest and the last panic, one of the last panic attacks that I've had of my life. Um, and I just said, "Nate, I can't go to Jamaica." And, and he takes his sleep apnea mask off, and we're in Midtown, you know, and he's like, "Listen, you lunatic. You're going on this trip. You need to live, you need to learn to live fearlessly. Like, you have all these gifts, and you are trapped in our house and in all this fear, and it's time for you to go. And I want you to go on that trip, and I want you to come back changed." And, and, and he's, and he never told me what to do. He was very supportive, but he was like, "This is a non-negotiable if we're gonna make it. I cannot live with this anymore. You are fine. We are good. I promise you everything's okay." And he was serious. Like, I, he was very rarely serious, but he was like, "You're going. Like, I'm not, we're not doing this." And so the weekend of November 8th, I, he took me to the airport, and he never took me to the airport 'cause the guy loved to sleep. And so it was an early flight, but he's like, "I wanna drive you," which was very out of character for him. He'd, he had no problem putting his wife in an Uber. Zero.

    8. PAPeter Attia51:26

       [laughs]

    9. KCKelsey Chittick51:26

       [laughs] Zero. He'd be like, "Good luck. You're good." So I remember we-

    10. PAPeter Attia51:30

        He can even call the Uber, right? I mean-

    11. KCKelsey Chittick51:32

        Yeah. He would do everything. Jerk. Um, so we were driving to the airport, and I remember I was texting with Toby 'cause she was... We got, so long story short, we got invited to go to this event in Jamaica. It was like a spiritual retreat. Wim Hof, Steven Kotler, um, Marisa Peer, Jim Kwik, great speakers, people doing great things. And Toby, through their relationship, Tony and Toby's with Vishen, we got to go to this event called A-Fest, and it's a, it's a three or four-day event twice a year where you go and you just talk to people that are doing great things and look into your stuff and hear great speakers. So I, I'm texting Toby, and Nate grabs my hand, and he never did this, and he was like, "Can you put your phone down? Can you just put your phone down? This will break me." And he said, "Just, I just wanna be with you. I just wanna be with you for this next five minutes until we get out, and then you can text her." And so we just held hands, and he drove, you know, he drove me to the terminal, and he just said, like, "You're the most amazing woman I've ever met in my life." He's like, "I've never met anybody like you." Wow, I'm really crying. Um, he said, "But I just want you to know I love you more than anything, and I hope you go have fun and that you come back a better person and ready to do what I know you're meant to do. And I don't want you to worry about anything because we are gonna be fine, and you know, I just, I love you so much, so go have fun." And we kissed, and I went on. And of course, because I'm always been very cheap, I decided not to get the, um, talk plan in Jamaica, so we just texted for four days, the most beautiful texts you could ever imagine, um, just about what I was learning and how supportive he was, and he was like, "You're doing so great. This is awesome." I was like, "I'm gonna be different. I'm gonna move more during sex. It's gonna be great."

    12. PAPeter Attia53:14

        [laughs]

    13. KCKelsey Chittick53:14

        Like, "You're gonna love this." And then it was the last day, and I remember Wim Hof had just spoken, and his wife had died when she was young, and he was left with four kids, and I remember thinking, like, "That would suck. That would suck so bad if your spouse left, especially a good one," you know? So I went and I got in the water, and I was swimming 'cause we had one more, um, event. It was like a bike, a boat, a, a boat excursion. I remember I was swimming in the water, and I felt like, I, I felt the divine all around me, and I remember thinking, like, "Everything's changed." Like, "Everything's changed." Like, "I get it now."

    14. PAPeter Attia53:48

        Yeah.

    15. KCKelsey Chittick53:48

        Like, "I don't need to be afraid." I could breathe, and I, I, I thought to myself, "I can't wait to tell Nate. He's gonna be so happy." And if you knew the time I was swimming in the water, and you knew what was happening-

    16. PAPeter Attia53:58

        Yeah

    17. KCKelsey Chittick53:58

        ... in Los Angeles, it would blow your mind. So I got out of the water, and I was still in my suit and put on some jean shorts, and I was getting ready to go smoke some Jamaican weed and get on a boat and just, you know, be the new Kelsey, just, like, in the moment. And my phone rang a couple times, and it was a number I didn't know, and I was like, "Not today," you know. "I'm, I'm in Jamaica. I'm doing the thing." And then my best friend called, and she said, "Listen, I don't want you to do the Kelsey. I don't want you to freak out." And she said, "But Nate was at, um, Sky Zone Trampoline Park, and he fell. We don't really know what happened. We're gonna go... Your, your brother-in-law's gonna go get the kids, and your mom's heading over to UCLA. But everything's fine. Go onto the boat." And I remember I just took a breath and I was like, "He's dead." And she's like, "He's not dead." And everything, Peter, in my body knew that man was gone, like everything. And so I felt like I was just waiting for the rest of the world to catch up to what I already knew, which was this was the thing. Because I also, when I got to Jamaica, all my anxiety went away. It was almost like sliding doors, and once I made the decision to go on that trip, this was, this was what was gonna happen. And I assume that if Nate was smart, he knows if I had been there, I would've been like, "You don't die on me." Like, I would've been crazy. So on some level, I think he waited till the last day, because I had gotten all the information and I had met all the people, and so many of the people from Jamaica have been super influential in my recovery and my grief work and some of the psychedelic things. And so I told Toby, I was like, "We're going to the airport." She's like, "This is ridiculous. Everything's fine." And I was like, I didn't even, I wasn't even talking. I was just, like, packing, and I was like, "Get me..." And there was one, one flight, and I was like, "Get us to the airport." And so we were driving down this Jamaican road with, like, potholes and I was in a taxi, and the phone rang and I knew it. It was my mom, and she said, "The doctor would like to speak with you." And I took the phone and he said, "I'm so sorry, Mrs. Chittick. We tried everything. We worked on him for 50 minutes 'cause he looked so young, but, um, he didn't make it." And I remember I said, you know, "Is he dead?" And he said, "Your husband had a heart attack." And I said, "Is my husband dead?" And he said, "Yes, Nate is dead." And then I just said to them with no emotion, "He's dead."

    18. PAPeter Attia56:23

        Hmm.

    19. KCKelsey Chittick56:23

        And Toby was like, "Who's dead?" And I was like, "Nate's dead." And she screamed and, and then began what would be the most transformative, painful, and probably beautiful last four and a half years of my life.

11. 56:37 – 1:01:35

    Breaking the news to her children of their father’s death

    1. PAPeter Attia56:38

       So how long did it take you to get back to LA?

    2. KCKelsey Chittick56:41

       So there was one plane going back to the US that day, so it was late Saturday night, and I knew I had to get home to my kids because they didn't know. And I really didn't even know what they'd seen, and that's another discussion we'll get into 'cause I didn't really know. There's a million things around that, but they thought th- that he had fallen. But as they... Now we, I know more about what they thought. But there was one seat left, and when I got to the airport, they were like, "You, there's not enough time." It was, like, 20 minutes, the door was shut. And through a thousand miracles, and I will say, and I tell this to people all the time, in your biggest challenges and crises, there are angels literally all around you. I, I mean, I, I've, I envision them just, God gives you, or whatever you believe, the, the people show up for you, and it is miraculous. So this one baggage claim guy was like, "Just hold on," and somehow he talked to them. And it's in Jamaica too, people are a little more laid back. And they opened the door, which I really didn't think was ever humanly possible. I think it's, like, the one thing I've never seen happen in life.

    3. PAPeter Attia57:42

       [laughs] Right, right. It's like a-

    4. KCKelsey Chittick57:43

       You know? Like, they're like, "Nope"

    5. PAPeter Attia57:43

       ... it's an FAA commandment or something.

    6. KCKelsey Chittick57:44

       Exactly. So I got on the plane and I had the last seat. I was in an aisle, and I went into shock, and you know much more about the brain than I do. But I remember thinking, "Oh, shit, this is like what you see on TV when the woman's kid dies and she, like, just falls apart." And I felt like I was having a break with reality, so I started throwing up in the little white bag and I was hyperventilating, and I couldn't, I couldn't come back to... I, I couldn't integrate it. I'd never had had an experience where you, you thought you were going crazy. And so nobody talked to me at all, which I wouldn't have talked to me. Now I always talk to people when I see them like that. But I think they were, like, enjoying their honeymoon or [laughs] their girls' trip, and they're like, "Lunatic," you know, "in aisle seven. Like, get away from her." So I just, I panicked for about 20 minutes and then the, um, the seatbelt sign went off, and all of a sudden there's this beautiful Jamaican woman in this gorgeous dress, and she's standing next to me in the row, in the aisle, and she puts her hand on my shoulder, and she puts a hand on my forehead and she says, "Baby girl, I don't know what you're going through or what awaits you on the other side of this plane, but I want you to know that there are so many people praying for you, and God loves you, and I love you, and you are stronger than you think." And she said, um, she said, "Slow your breathing down, baby girl, and decide who you wanna be when you land, when, when this plane lands." And I don't know what it was, but I s- it, it recalibrated my breathing, and she kind of just patted my shoulder. She left, and then I actually spent the next four hours on that flight, the layover in Texas, and then the flight home deciding hopefully who I would be, you know, a week from now, a month from now, five years from now, 10 years from now. Because on that plane ride, I got really clear that they had just lost their dad, but they weren't gonna lose me, and that kind of became my North Star from then on. And I got home. I went to my mother-in-law. My mom picked me up, probably the worst drive you could ever imagine, from LAX at about midnight, and I went to my friend's house and, um... Do you want me to go into this part?

    7. PAPeter Attia1:00:01

       Yeah.

    8. KCKelsey Chittick1:00:02

       This is the part that you just, you can't make it better. But I got to my friend's house where my kids were. They were 9 and 12 at the time, and they had been waiting all day, and I had lied to them. And they said, "Is Dad okay?" And I had said, over FaceTime, "You know, he's not doing well, but, you know, let's just keep praying for him." And I, because I, I, I couldn't bear to tell them over the phone. I had to be there. And so now it's funny 'cause we joke about that, like, "You lied about really big things." I'm like, "I know I did, but I, I've admitted to it." So I got there and I gave them both a hug, and I asked everybody to leave, and I just said, I said three things. I said, um, "Your father would have never left us if we weren't gonna be okay. It just wasn't his style. Do you understand me?" And they nodded. They're like, "Yes, Mom." And then I said, um, "I need you to know that I'm enough. I have no idea how I'm gonna do this. I don't know how to live life without your father. I don't know how to raise you guys without your father, but I'm certain I'm gonna figure it out, and we're gonna have a great life. And you guys need to stay being 9 and 12, and don't need to worry about anything, because I've got this. Do you understand?" And they said, "Yes, Mom." And then I said, "The most important thing I need you to know is that you are not victims, that you had the best father for 9 and 12 years, and he focused all of his energy on you. He loved you with everything he had, and he was the kindest, most patient, amazing human being I've ever met. And some kids don't get that for a day. So just always remember that you're the lucky ones. Do you understand?" And they were like, "Yes, Mom."

12. 1:01:35 – 1:10:38

    The darkest days following Nate’s passing and how her children were handling grief

    1. KCKelsey Chittick1:01:35

       And then I asked them both, and they were tiny, and I said, "What do you guys need from me?" And they said, "If you're okay, we're okay." And so, I mean, I tell every mother, like, you would become okay, too.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:01:45

       Mm.

    3. KCKelsey Chittick1:01:46

       Um, and that's what we've done. We kind of, from that point on, fought for joy while acknowledging excruciating pain, and doing it at the same time.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:02:00

       Now, the days got pretty dark still.

    5. KCKelsey Chittick1:02:02

       Oh, yeah. The first two years were just brutal. Brutal.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:02:08

       Tell me about the lowest lows.

    7. KCKelsey Chittick1:02:10

       I think the first night, if you've ever lost someone suddenly, you feel like you're, you've been set on fire. I, I can't explain the physical pain of grief. I always thought it was mental, but, um, grief is... Grief and trauma is very physical. Um, you wanna get out of your body. You know, I never understood why people cut. I never understood why you... I never understood suicide. I never understood, uh, you know, drive- people driving y- into trees. When the pain is so big, you have no way to describe it, and I had tons of resources and love and support, and I still thought, like, "This isn't gonna work." Um, the beginning was surreal, and I just... It's, it's hard to imagine how you're going to live in a world that so quickly becomes a planet you've never been on. Um, he was everything to us. Like, he was, he was, he was the guy. Um, I didn't even know an adult life without him in it. And he was a much better parent than me in a thousand ways. So I knew early on, like, we had a huge deficit when it came to honesty, [chuckles] spirituality, kindness, service. He was just exceptional. I was great at, like, scheduling carpools, and I was like, "Well, shit, that's not gonna lead to, like, a good kid," [chuckles] you know? That we've got problems here. Um, and I think when the numbness wore off of, like, the, the memorial's over and a- there was a thousand hard times. I think the morgue was exceptionally awful, to go see him and, uh, see him dead.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:03:39

       Which you didn't wanna do at all. You fought like hell not to.

    9. KCKelsey Chittick1:03:43

       Yeah, I mean, I remember thinking like, "What, are you fucking kidding me? I'm not gonna go see my... I'm not gonna say goodbye to my husband dead." Like, I thought it was insane that someone would offer that. Um, by the grace of God, and I... This is... I don't have much advice about anything, but if people have been through it, trust them. They know this. And I had another angel that was like, "You have to go say goodbye to your husband." And I had, uh, probably one of the most beautiful experiences, um, because I, I got some closure that I never thought I would get. And I, I have a great story of when I went to the morgue and, and I s- you know, it was an awful experience, and there was police, and there's nurses, and they pulled him out of a freezer. And he's just laying there, and he has... He's still intubated, but somehow all that fades away, and I just started to talk to him. And my best friend was there, and I talked to him for about 10 or 15 minutes, just told him how much I loved him and how grateful I was and how, you know, I would do the best for him and the kids. And then [chuckles] when I got up, my, I asked my best friend, like, "How'd it go?" And she's like, "Reminded me a lot of real life. You just talked at him for a long time, and he just stared at you kindly." [laughs]

    10. PAPeter Attia1:04:46

        [laughs]

    11. KCKelsey Chittick1:04:46

        It's like, that's so true. Um, so the morgue was tough. The coroners was awful. Death is such a business, and there's the legality and the p-

    12. PAPeter Attia1:04:56

        Did they ask you if you would like an autopsy, given that-

    13. KCKelsey Chittick1:04:59

        Yeah, you-

    14. PAPeter Attia1:04:59

        ... no foul play, it's-

    15. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:00

        So when you-

    16. PAPeter Attia1:05:00

        ... it's your option, right?

    17. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:01

        No, when you die in a public place in LA-

    18. PAPeter Attia1:05:04

        Oh

    19. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:04

        ... you have to do a-

    20. PAPeter Attia1:05:05

        I see

    21. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:05

        ... you have to do a autopsy. So that was on the books from the beginning. Um, I think the, at about six months, I thought, "This won't work." And I've never had su-

    22. PAPeter Attia1:05:16

        When you say this-

    23. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:18

        Life.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:05:18

        Yeah.

    25. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:18

        Yeah. I've, I've never had suicidal thoughts. I've been depressed, I've been down, I've been anxious, but I never thought like, "How do we get out of here?"

    26. PAPeter Attia1:05:27

        Did you ever find yourself thinking like, "These kids now are the greatest thing I have, and they're my anchor to him, but they're also kind of the anchor that's holding me to this earth"? Like, it's a very different calculation to think about ending your life with kids versus without.

    27. KCKelsey Chittick1:05:42

        Well, my mom used to always tell you, "The one thing you lose once you have kids is the right to kill yourself." She used to say that all the time. She's like, "You know what else? You can't even kill yourself once you have them, 'cause it wouldn't be fair to them." And I remember thinking that, but I also remember thinking, "I wanna take them with me." I remember thinking like, "We gotta get to him." There was this, a couple nights where I thought, "So this isn't gonna work. I've tried everything. This doesn't work. I feel lost. I'm, I'm so broken. I'm so scared, emotionally, spiritually, physically, financially." I didn't know how we were gonna do it. And so I, I ended up... I mean, I, I, people talk about this in the chapter, but I ended up just saying like, "I'm gonna talk to my son," because I knew he was 12, and I knew he was in a bad spot. So when-

    28. PAPeter Attia1:06:28

        Tell, tell me about that. Tell me about, like, h- what you saw in both of them over that six-month period of time.

    29. KCKelsey Chittick1:06:36

        Just like, I mean, if you have kids, just like-

    30. PAPeter Attia1:06:38

        'Cause especially, I'm guessing, like, after Christmas, right? So-
13. 1:10:38 – 1:15:34

    A new relationship with death, finding happiness, and the duality of feelings

    1. KCKelsey Chittick1:10:38

       Um, so we navigated through that. The first year was just the crying at night. And the nights are really dark when you have grief, and when you have little kids, because they need so much. Because they are... At night is when everybody, whether you're an adult, I don't know. I mean, I wake up in the middle of the night, or I used to quite a bit, with just terrible anxiety. And their fear was so big, and I just didn't think I had enough energy to be there for them on my own.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:11:04

       How were you sleeping?

    3. KCKelsey Chittick1:11:07

       I mean, I don't remember. I don't remember sleeping the first year very much 'cause I was always, somebody always needed something the first year at nights.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:11:15

       Such as? Meaning the kids themselves couldn't sleep or-

    5. KCKelsey Chittick1:11:17

       The kids. Somebody, somebody would be crying. Somebody would be losing it. Someone would be, um, not well.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:11:23

       And you slept in three different rooms?

    7. KCKelsey Chittick1:11:24

       Mm-hmm. Well, for a lot, many times we slept together. Um, my daughter slept with me for a long time after he died, and just she wanted to crawl, crawl back in my uterus. Like, I w- I thought to myself, like, "I'll never be able to leave the house again. Like, my life's over. Like, I'll never be able to have fun again. I'll never be happy again." But amongst all of that, I also thought, "We're gonna be okay." Like, there was an, there was a under, there was a knowing somewhere that, like, this was just part of it, but it wasn't always gonna be this way, but it felt like it was always gonna be this way. So I toggled through hopefulness and just devastation. Uh, but I knew we needed to hold onto the fact that this was appropriate and it wouldn't last forever. Like, th- there, we were built to last. Like, humans are built to last. We aren't the first people who lost their father. I think our generation hasn't lost as many people as generations before, so it's just much more rare for us and it's more shocking, but this has been happening.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:12:25

       Yeah. That's interesting you say that. Like, you sort of imagine... Let's just go back in time 10,000 years.

    9. KCKelsey Chittick1:12:30

       Right. [laughs]

    10. PAPeter Attia1:12:30

        Not that far, but just 10,000 years.

    11. KCKelsey Chittick1:12:31

        [laughs] Perfect.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:12:32

        And it's basically the same thing. It's you and Nate and the kids.

    13. KCKelsey Chittick1:12:35

        Yeah.

    14. PAPeter Attia1:12:35

        Um, you know, you're hunter-gatherers, so it's a little different.

    15. KCKelsey Chittick1:12:37

        [laughs]

    16. PAPeter Attia1:12:37

        You don't have electricity and all that stuff. But there's certainly a scenario in which Nate gets an infection and dies. There's a scenario in which an animal attacks him. I mean, like, as you said-

    17. KCKelsey Chittick1:12:46

        Sure

    18. PAPeter Attia1:12:46

        ... it's not that uncommon that this would happen. How, knowing what you know now, I mean, I've never thought about it this way, but Do you get the sense that the, the Kelsey of 10,000 years ago would've had an easier time with this? And if so, would it have been because of expectations, or would it been, have been because of the community that you would've been stuck with? Like, you wouldn't have had your own house, for example.

    19. KCKelsey Chittick1:13:10

        Right. Um, both. I think the expectation that now everybody lives till they're 90 happily ever after, married with two kids and a mom and a dad, um, that expectation has set us up to be much m- much less resilient because there's this, like, one way.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:13:24

        Mm-hmm.

    21. KCKelsey Chittick1:13:24

        And it's, um, it's all about joy and fun, whereas I think 10,000 years ago you saw people recover all the time from awful things. Babies died, and people went to war, and there was famine. We have so much now that our anxiety is higher than ever before, and I, I felt that way before he died because when everything... As opposed to being really joyful when you have everything-

    22. PAPeter Attia1:13:46

        It's so counterintuitive, isn't it?

    23. KCKelsey Chittick1:13:48

        Yeah, yeah, because now you have everything. You don't want it to, you don't want it to fall apart, whereas back then they were like, "Well, shit, this is, this isn't that good, so whatever. I can handle things." We just don't handle things, and we don't, um... We're not used to feeling extremely uncomfortable anymore. Life is so comfortable. Things are so easy. Not for everybody-

    24. PAPeter Attia1:14:06

        Yeah

    25. KCKelsey Chittick1:14:07

        ... obviously, for people with resources.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:14:08

        Well, I mean, I think for everybody compared to 10,000 years ago, right?

    27. KCKelsey Chittick1:14:11

        100%.

    28. PAPeter Attia1:14:11

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. KCKelsey Chittick1:14:11

        100%. Yeah, and this idea that pain is bad and death is bad, and that's a whole discussion. Um, you know, now I have a completely different relationship with death. Um, I have a completely different relationship with what it means for the physical body to leave, and that Nate isn't gone, and we didn't get screwed, and, um, there wasn't a right time for him to leave or not. So there are so many nuances that through the last four and a half years have changed the way I feel. Um, I'm still toggling between all the different ideas around grief. You know, there's a whole... Like, my mother-in-law believes, like, "I will grieve forever. I will grieve forever, and that's just how it is, and our country wants everyone to be happy, and I'm not happy." And I'm like, "That's fine, and that's a choice." I, I personally now believe, again, I'm back to this, the football analogy, holding two beliefs at the same time, um, I can be grieving very deeply and very grateful at the same time. They, they don't have to be one... You don't go through one stage or the other. I miss Nate terribly, and I am so happy. I don't know what to tell you. I'm happier than I've ever been in my life, and I've been through the worst thing ever, and then I had some medical stuff just, I think, that came up from grief, and all the things that I was most afraid of I've made it through, and I am so excited about life. So I don't know.

14. 1:15:34 – 1:25:15

    Nate’s autopsy results showing evidence of CTE

    1. PAPeter Attia1:15:35

       So how long after Nate died did you get the autopsy results back?

    2. KCKelsey Chittick1:15:40

       So we got the heart part, which is... So he died of cardiomyopathy of the left ventricle, and the doctor called and just said, "We could tell right away. He was a football player. Um, his heart was so stretched out. It was so big." And he said, "Listen, Mrs. Chittick, you, you want all big muscles, just not a big heart. Nobody needs to have a big heart physically. You can have it spiritually, but you don't want a huge heart." And he said, "When big men move that much weight around at that speed, it just, it's, it, it overuses it, and the muscle just gives out." He said, "Big men and big animals die early." And he said, um, he was 98% blocked in all of his arteries, and, um, basically his left ventricle just had no more give. So he, he explained it to me as a water balloon that had just been stretched out, and there was just no pump anymore. And he said, "Big, fat people can live a long time if they sit all day and watch TV. But if you're out playing football at Thanksgiving and, you know, on the treadmill-"

    3. PAPeter Attia1:16:41

       Jump on the trampoline and-

    4. KCKelsey Chittick1:16:42

       Yeah, and running. He would run the beach and jump on the trampoline. He's like, "Your heart doesn't do that." He said, "Your h- your husband had a huge..." I mean, I love on his autopsy it said he died of a enlarged heart-

    5. PAPeter Attia1:16:51

       Hmm

    6. KCKelsey Chittick1:16:51

       ... which I just think is beautiful 'cause he had a really big heart.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:16:53

       You could put that on the tombstone.

    8. KCKelsey Chittick1:16:55

       Exactly. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So that was, um, about three months after he died, and then-

    9. PAPeter Attia1:17:00

       And did they also look at his brain? Presumably they didn't, and then-

    10. KCKelsey Chittick1:17:04

        They did, but they didn't have the right tools. So they're like, "I don't... We didn't see anything." I'm like, "Well, what did you do?" I mean, it's LA County Morgue-

    11. PAPeter Attia1:17:10

        Yeah

    12. KCKelsey Chittick1:17:10

        ... or Coroners. I don't... They don't think they have the equipment. So-

    13. PAPeter Attia1:17:14

        When did it first occur to you to maybe get the people at Boston University involved?

    14. KCKelsey Chittick1:17:18

        We had just started to talk about this a couple years before, and I'd gotten, like, the pamphlet from the NFL that said, you know, whatever the players' benefits are.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:17:27

        The NFLPA, yeah.

    16. KCKelsey Chittick1:17:27

        Mm-hmm. And there'd been a lot of talk. I hadn't watched, um, Concussion yet with Will Smith. I have since then. But I, I knew, and I, I... If I'm being completely honest, I thought, "Oh, well, maybe there'll be some compensation financially if he did have CTE, but I'm sure..." I, I don't know if he did or n- I, I don't know, but I wanna make sure because it would depend on whether I'd let Jack play-

    17. PAPeter Attia1:17:49

        Hmm

    18. KCKelsey Chittick1:17:49

        ... 'cause w- he was going to Loyola, and he was gonna play football most likely. So I said, "I need to know if football had anything to do with it." The heart thing pretty much sealed the deal, but I was like, "I wonder what was going on with Nate's brain." So Boston University was exceptional. Dr. McKee was exceptional. Lisa, the whole group there is phenomenal. And so, uh, LA Coroners sent his brain tissue, and they coordinated it with Boston. And they went, they said, "It'll be about a year 'cause we're gonna do a, um, we're gonna..." I don't, I'm using the wrong words, where like you... Pathological and do interviews.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:18:25

        Yeah, get the clinical side.

    20. KCKelsey Chittick1:18:26

        Clinical, yep. And so we're gonna interview everybody and talk about it, and his parents had an even more feeling of him floating away and being different, as did his brother. And I think I lived day to day with him, so it was harder to tell the, the changes 'cause they were so gradual.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:18:40

        Where did his brother live?

    22. KCKelsey Chittick1:18:41

        He lives in LA.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:18:42

        So he saw him a lot.

    24. KCKelsey Chittick1:18:43

        Mm-hmm. And the irony is his brother is just an exceptional... Been sober 14 years, but for so long we were trying to keep Luke alive, and it was just the way that it switched, and Nate was gone, and Luke is still here and a huge, huge part of our life. But Luke said he felt the same way, like there was a floating away, and his mom especially was like, "He is not the son I knew."

    25. PAPeter Attia1:19:04

        And how long did she feel that? Five years

    26. KCKelsey Chittick1:19:05

        Five years. Five years.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:19:08

        And his dad?

    28. KCKelsey Chittick1:19:10

        His dad's just a kind man. He, he just, he, he said, um, he doesn't really know how he felt or he doesn't remember, but he knew that something was different about his son, but he couldn't put his finger on it. So about a year later, um, a little bit, no, maybe like nine months, we got a call and, um, honestly, I didn't know, I didn't know what they were gonna say, but I didn't think they were gonna say what they said. And, uh, Dr. McKee got on the phone and just said, "I'm, I'm sorry to tell you, but, you know, Nate had stage two, almost stage three, uh, CTE. He has lesions all over his brain. And, um, I just want you to know that that would've been a really hard life." So, you know, part of my ability to be in gratitude where a lot of other families that have football players aren't, is that I don't have to live with a man that's slowly deteriorating before my eyes. There are tons of people who have husbands that are healthy heart-wise, but not brain-wise. So that's where it gets tricky, and that's where I continue to talk about it. But again-

    29. PAPeter Attia1:20:13

        And, you know, for people to sort of understand what stage two and stage three is, I mean, Junior Seau was stage two-

    30. KCKelsey Chittick1:20:18

        Yeah
15. 1:25:15 – 1:30:02

    The grieving process

    1. PAPeter Attia1:25:15

       So how long after Nate died did you have a good night's sleep without medication?

    2. KCKelsey Chittick1:25:21

       That's interesting. We'll talk about psychedelics at the same time, but I s- you know, the first couple weeks people are like, "You need Xanax. You need Ambien." I'd never taken anything, and I remember I took them for about a week, and I, I woke up and I was like, "God, I feel so far away from everything." And that was the first experience I had of, like, traditional medicine taking you away from your pain and other things bringing you to it so you can work through it, which we'll discuss. But, um-

    3. PAPeter Attia1:25:44

       Yeah, the exact opposite, right?

    4. KCKelsey Chittick1:25:46

       Yeah.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:25:46

       [laughs]

    6. KCKelsey Chittick1:25:46

       The exact opposite, which is mind-blowing. I remember maybe seven or eight months in, sleep became a really safe place for me.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:25:54

       How long after Nate died would you wake up and not have that nanosecond of forgetting what had happened? Y- do, do you know that experience-

    8. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:04

       Yeah

    9. PAPeter Attia1:26:04

       ... where-

    10. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:05

        Yeah

    11. PAPeter Attia1:26:05

        ... like, the next day you wake up and there's probably, like, two seconds-

    12. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:08

        Right

    13. PAPeter Attia1:26:08

        ... when you don't know that that just happened, and then it kind of comes crashing down.

    14. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:11

        Yeah.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:26:11

        And then at some point that goes away, and there's never a moment when you don't know it didn't happen.

    16. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:16

        Uh, maybe the last six months.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:26:18

        Wow.

    18. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:20

        It was-

    19. PAPeter Attia1:26:20

        I wouldn't have imagined it could last that long

    20. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:22

        ... it was jarring. It, to be honest, it still gets me sometimes, and sometimes I'll lay in my bed and be like, "Nate," just to practice saying his name because I... It's, it's a surreal experience because it's like, um, it's alter worlds. There's just no... Sudden death I think is just, you know, everyone asks that, "Oh, would it, you rather him be sick, or would you rather him, you know, die suddenly?" [laughs] I love the games we play-

    21. PAPeter Attia1:26:44

        Yeah

    22. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:45

        ... with, with people grieving. But-

    23. PAPeter Attia1:26:46

        Which again-

    24. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:46

        [laughs]

    25. PAPeter Attia1:26:47

        ... do you think 10,000 years ago they sat around the fire-

    26. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:49

        Right

    27. PAPeter Attia1:26:49

        ... ever playing that-

    28. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:50

        Would you rather have cancer or die in front of you? I-

    29. PAPeter Attia1:26:52

        Would you rather get killed by a saber-toothed tiger-

    30. KCKelsey Chittick1:26:54

        [laughs]
16. 1:30:02 – 1:34:40

    Dealing with grief with kids and how children grieve differently

    1. KCKelsey Chittick1:30:02

       Um, and even now, like, I feel like I know sort of how to help people that are grieving 'cause I've felt it, but I still, it's still a very tricky thing. Um, I don't know how I feel about the videos. I'm so grateful I have 'em. My kids don't look at pictures. They don't like it.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:30:18

       Yeah, so I was gonna ask you, how did the kids participate in that?

    3. KCKelsey Chittick1:30:21

       Kids are a great thing to have, and they're exhausting to have during grief. When you have kids and you're going through grief, they keep you going in a regular life, and at the same time you can't really grieve until they're gone, and they do not like to see you sad. But I, I talked to a ton of people, um, who had lost parents when they were younger, and I remember all of them were like, "Just please don't... If, if, if only my mom had been okay, it would've been great, but we lost my dad, and then we lost my mom too 'cause she never got happy again." So I remembered that, and in the beginning I also felt like, well, my kids need to see that I'm really sad and show 'em how to grieve 'cause there's that movement too. But what I realize, it's a very fine line. Kids do not like to see their parents sobbing. It scares them. So if I'm in a, if I'm over in the corner shaking and crying and being like, "I miss your father," it's not s- it doesn't feel safe for a 9 and 12-year-old.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:31:13

       Do you think that kids are innately wired to move on from this quicker?

    5. KCKelsey Chittick1:31:17

       100%. My kids are exceptional.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:31:21

       And in talking to other parents who have lost a spouse, do, do you think that's true, not just for your kids, but in general? Do you think that's true for kids, that they are, in that sense, more wired to move on?

    7. KCKelsey Chittick1:31:33

       Ha- because they live in the present moment. They haven't played out a whole future. They don't know that they missed the wedding. They don't know that he missed their graduation, because they've never had a graduation. That's all in our heads. I think that if you, and this is just what's worked for me, if you create a home that is joyful, and the person, and, and the trauma's allowed to be spoken about when they want, and that there is, that it's not something bad that happened, it's something that is, we experienced, and we get to, to decide how we want to tell the story, I think kids can survive amazing things, much better than adults, 'cause they don't have preconceived ideas. So yeah, I think kids are, I think kids live in the moment too, and if you're lucky enough, I hit it right at the right age, 'cause kids become so self-consumed around 12, that their whole world becomes their friends. And so once my kids kicked into that, parents are kind of in the background. Like, you're there, but you're in the background of their lives. And Nate's alive in our house, very much so, so it's not something they have-

    8. PAPeter Attia1:32:32

       How so?

    9. KCKelsey Chittick1:32:33

       I mean, we talk about him all the time. We-

    10. PAPeter Attia1:32:35

        Do you still have pictures?

    11. KCKelsey Chittick1:32:36

        We have some. I took down a lot, because I realized, too, um, this goes back to the videos, you don't wanna be, y- y- you wanna be careful with grief and pictures and videos, that you let it in when it's the appropriate time. 'Cause if not, it can, it can become all-consuming. So we definitely have a, a poster board of pictures, but all the pictures in our house now mostly are of the kids and I.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:33:01

        Hmm.

    13. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:02

        And there's some of Nate, but it's not like... And we have an area where we have a Super Bowl, and we have a picture of the family.

    14. PAPeter Attia1:33:08

        Where's his ring?

    15. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:09

        His ring is in the bank, like the, what's it called? So deposit box.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:33:14

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:14

        Yeah.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:33:15

        You don't wanna wear it around a neck brace or something like-

    19. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:16

        No, [laughs] I don't want it like a nose ring or something.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:33:18

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:18

        No. Um, yeah, I think talking about it, too, my kids, he's, we talk about him all the time. I'm like, "Your dad would say..." And, and they get really pissed if I'm like, "Your dad would be let down." And they're like, "You don't know that, so don't say it."

    22. PAPeter Attia1:33:29

        You don't get to pull that card.

    23. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:30

        I was like, "I was just trying to get you."

    24. PAPeter Attia1:33:31

        [laughs]

    25. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:31

        Um, we laugh a lot about the way Nate died.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:33:35

        Say more about that.

    27. KCKelsey Chittick1:33:36

        I mean, who dies at SkyZone during toddler time, wearing orange sticky socks? I mean, that's just ridiculous. Like, you couldn't make that up. I think he's the first person to ever die. I know I'm not supposed to say SkyZone for legal reasons or whatever, but that's what I [laughs] would... I mean, who does that? Like, he's the first person in history to jump, jump, die at, during, during toddler time playing basketball with his kids. It's just, it's so bad it's good, at least for a comic. And for me, and then I, I think in the story I talk a lot, he died at, on 11/11 at 11:00. Which again, I just was like, "Thanks, buddy." Like, there's just 1,000 nods to me, it feels like, that we're okay, and that this thing's bigger than we think, and that don't get your panties in a bunch. Like, this is just death. Um, it happens all the time. I think that's the other thing. The kids now, we are, we've been to enough grief things and enough grief camps that we, we think, we're like, "People are dying all the time. Nobody else knows it, but it is unbelievable how many people are dying every day." So there's a acceptance of death in our house that is probably very different than in other houses.

17. 1:34:40 – 1:47:36

    Healing through her first psychedelic experience

    1. PAPeter Attia1:34:41

       So how long after Nate died did you have your first psychedelic experience?

    2. KCKelsey Chittick1:34:47

       So about nine months after.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:34:51

       And what was the lead-up to that like? How did you think about going through that, and what, what were you afraid of? What were you hoping to get out of it?

    4. KCKelsey Chittick1:34:59

       So I had gone to this, um, event in Estonia, and, uh, the summer after Nate died. And a bunch of people were talking about psychedelics, and I, for grief work and a lot, or trauma work. And I had, I, I really didn't have any... I, I'd gotten to a point where I was doing better, but I, I needed to access Nate. Like, I had this des- deep desire to have a relationship with him and raise the kids with him, even if he wasn't in this realm. And I remember I was having a conversation, and I was like, "I just need to get to him, 'cause I know, I, I believe that, like, the body went away, but I don't, I don't know where he is. And I, I can talk to God. I feel great with my relationship with God. Um, I just don't know how to get to him, but I, I need to get to him," 'cause I was kinda starting to go crazy. And this one guy was like, "Have you ever done mushrooms?" And I was like, "No, but my brother did a lot in high school, and I would never, and I don't like druggies, and I think you guys are a bunch... I'm very uptight, and I-"

    5. PAPeter Attia1:35:54

       [laughs]

    6. KCKelsey Chittick1:35:54

       "... have two glasses of wine, and I'm not fun and don't even ask." And-

    7. PAPeter Attia1:35:58

       [laughs] And I'm gonna keep judging you now.

    8. KCKelsey Chittick1:35:59

       And I'm, and I'm gonna judge you, because that's what I do best, and I'm gonna keep doing that, 'cause look where it got me. [laughs]

    9. PAPeter Attia1:36:05

       [laughs]

    10. KCKelsey Chittick1:36:05

        Um, and then they were like, "Have you ever tried MDMA?" And I was like, "This is all, this is all ridiculousness, because you guys are all exactly the kids I did not wanna hang out with in high school." 'Cause my experience was my brother's an addi- my brother-in-law's an addict, um, Oxycontin and alcohol. He's 14 years sober. And then my, my brother was just a partier. He followed Phish and the Dead, and I just remember him being, like, B- gonzo a lot of high school. And so at some point, I was talking to this, this guy who'd done so many psychedelics. I mean, literally, the guy was crazy. He was, like, telling me about having sex in a thorn bush, and I was like, "Why am I even talking to this weirdo?" But I said, "You know, I'm just not gonna do, I'm never gonna try that stuff." And he said, "Why?" I said, "Well, I'm afraid. I'm not, I don't wanna die. Like, my kids just lost their dad. I'm not gonna, they're not gonna, I'm not gonna jump off of a, a bridge after doing too many mushrooms." And he's like, "But you're already dead, 'cause you're so afraid of everything." And I was like, "Oof." So I talked to a couple of our friends, and I said, "Listen, I'll be ready when I'm ready." And I mean, there's this, there's this saying in that community that says the plants y- you'll n- the plants will welcome you, or you'll, you'll know. Like, it's not something you can force somebody to do. You'll know when it's time. And I got a call, uh, October, and, of after he had died, so almost a year, and they said, "We're gonna do this group with these shamans. Are, are you interested?" And I remember it was very clear, and I could just hear it. I was like, "I'm in." And I w- had probably a level 10 anxiety going into it because I had never done anything. I mean, I wasn't even a drinker really, just always been a old-fashioned, uptight, fear-based, neurotic person, you know, just [laughs] classic. And we get to this house, and, well, beforehand, the shamans called and just kind of asked me what, what I wanted to work through, and I said, "You know, I have these couple of events that were very traumatic, the morgue, the coroners, telling my children." Um, I couldn't remember anything from the time I'd gotten the call, um, until I landed, until after the plant journey, so I had pretty much-

    11. PAPeter Attia1:38:04

        That whole story about getting on the airplane and the woman helping you

    12. KCKelsey Chittick1:38:07

        I didn't know where I... I don't- I still can't remember where the layover was, but I, I couldn't remember a lot of that flight.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:38:14

        Mm.

    14. KCKelsey Chittick1:38:14

        And so I knew there was some trauma there that had been blocked out, and I thought, "Well, I better be able to access that." So, so she listened to it all, and then we got together. It was this beautiful group. We talked about intention. We talked about, um, you know, what we hoped to get out of it. Everything opposite of what I thought it would be, which was just, like, everyone popping pills and, you know, dancing to rave music. [laughs] And, um, just a good group of people I could... Just loving people, supportive, and I kind of shared what I was, where I was at. And I mean, it's kind of a funny story. So the first thing they gave me w- was, uh... Well, they gave me something, and I took it, and I had a full-blown panic attack. And I raised my hand, and I was like, "I, so I told you it's not working," like, "I want it out." And she came over and was like, "We gave you a placebo because we knew that you..." Like, "This, this w- [laughs] The first hump was gonna be a big one for you." And she did kind of similar to what the woman on the plane did. She put her hand on my head, and I laid down, and she actually breathed me through my panic attack, and she said, "That wasn't anything. Now, this is it." And she said, um, "Just let it do its work."

    15. PAPeter Attia1:39:18

        And did you start with psilocybin or MDMA?

    16. KCKelsey Chittick1:39:20

        I don't... I, I, I think I started with... I don't know. They won't tell me-

    17. PAPeter Attia1:39:25

        Okay

    18. KCKelsey Chittick1:39:25

        ... the exact... They wouldn't tell me exactly what and, what and where, but what I do know is I dropped... Oh, I remember we were all laying in a circle, and everybody by then was kind of laying down, and everyone... Someone said, "Have you dropped in?" And I was like, "What, what is a drop in?" Like, "I don't know. What does it mean to drop in?" And someone was like-

    19. PAPeter Attia1:39:41

        So you're that annoying person that's like-

    20. KCKelsey Chittick1:39:43

        [laughs] I was the worst. No, and our friend, which you know, but I w- will-

    21. PAPeter Attia1:39:48

        Yeah

    22. KCKelsey Chittick1:39:48

        ... name nameless, but he was like, "Jesus Christ." Like, "Can we get this girl... Can you give her more?" Um, but I was like, "When are we gonna drop in, everybody?"

    23. PAPeter Attia1:39:55

        [laughs]

    24. KCKelsey Chittick1:39:56

        [laughs] "Is anybody else dropped in?" And somebody was like, "You'll know when you drop in." [laughs]

    25. PAPeter Attia1:40:02

        [laughs]

    26. KCKelsey Chittick1:40:03

        And I remember like three minutes later, I was like, "I'm in." [laughs]

    27. PAPeter Attia1:40:05

        [laughs]

    28. KCKelsey Chittick1:40:05

        Like, it was just so ridiculous, um, and just so embarrassing. And he was like, "Oh, God, here we go. Babysit her all night." Um, but within like three minutes, I was back on the plane.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:40:18

        Hm.

    30. KCKelsey Chittick1:40:19

        And I was... But this time-
18. 1:47:36 – 1:58:24

    The therapeutic potential of psychedelics, meditation, and more

    1. KCKelsey Chittick1:47:36

       so, I don't know. People get tired 'cause I'm so fired up about plant medicine now from someone who's like... You know, I've probably done five or six since then. Nothing quite as mind-blowing as that first one.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:47:47

       Yeah. What, what have the subsequent trips been like? Do you go into them with a, a much more, um, focused, uh, intention?

    3. KCKelsey Chittick1:47:55

       I've done both. I've gone in with a focused intention, like I'm looking for some answers, and I've also gone in being like, "Just tell me what is." For me, it feels like a download of information of, um... [lips smack] It feels like a connection that is so much bigger than anything I could have just in my day-to-day. My-- The biggest thing about plants, and this, this is important, I, I really need a lot of approval, and I've spent my life trying to be great at everything and have people give me attagirls. And when I did that first experience, and it's been subsequent in all my experiences, is my ego completely goes away, and I don't-- I'm the biggest judgment. I'm a comic. I try to make fun of everybody. I, like, use everything against people. [chuckles] And when I'm in those experiences, I have no judgments on anybody, and I have no desire to be liked.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:48:41

       And no judgments on yourself.

    5. KCKelsey Chittick1:48:43

       Yeah. I don't, I don't, I-- There's this, like, it's this 10 or 11 hours where I'm not worried about what people think of me or what I think of them, which it's such a relief, you know? So for me, that's probably, that's the biggest thing I get out of those experiences, is this what would it look like if my ego just got out of the way and I just was present with what is and with what who is, and you just see good. And I didn't ever feel, like, messed up. I mean, I literally tell my friends who are still so against it, "You're-- I-- None of it was scary." And obviously, I haven't done any ayahuasca, and I, I'm not called to that at all right now currently in my life. Um, but man, it's a lot better than getting drunk and crying. You know, I stopped drinking pretty, pretty soon after he died because I'd drink tequila and just sob, and so I'm real clear now that alcohol is a depressant.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:49:34

       Even to this day?

    7. KCKelsey Chittick1:49:35

       Yeah. I, I drink red wine now, but I-- any type of alcohol Cues anxiety 'cause it, the sugar makes my heart race. And then if I can't sleep, then it get... Then once this thing starts, my brain starts going, it can be not a safe place. So alcohol just doesn't really work for me anymore.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:49:52

       Did you talk with your kids after the psilocybin experience?

    9. KCKelsey Chittick1:49:56

       And tell them about it?

    10. PAPeter Attia1:49:57

        Yeah.

    11. KCKelsey Chittick1:49:57

        No. I haven't yet.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:49:59

        Uh, meaning as of yet?

    13. KCKelsey Chittick1:50:00

        As of yet, yeah.

    14. PAPeter Attia1:50:01

        So they'll, they might watch this and [chuckles]

    15. KCKelsey Chittick1:50:02

        Yeah, they might. Or actually, I, I had some notes when I had... I had left some notes at home, and I was like, "Jack, can you take a picture of these notes?" And I was like, "Oh, shit." Well, there you go. [chuckles] You're gonna... If he read it. Um, he's just now, he's 16 now, so he would understand it. But they are both... They hate drunk people. They hate... My, my brother-in-law's oc- actually, I mean, obviously sober, so there's been a connotation around drugs in our family that it's, it's really not good. Um, so this will have to be a longer discussion, and I don't really know. I mean, I don't... What do you think? When do you talk to your kids about it? Have you talked to your 13-year-old?

    16. PAPeter Attia1:50:37

        No, not about psychedelics. Um-

    17. KCKelsey Chittick1:50:39

        Yeah, me neither

    18. PAPeter Attia1:50:40

        ... but, um, a- actually that's not true. I've talked about it once with her through the lens of drugs.

    19. KCKelsey Chittick1:50:47

        Okay.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:50:47

        And, um, sort of trying to explain that, [lips smack] um, you know, um, th- the legality of a drug is a second order consideration. I mean, it's an important consideration, obviously, if you're trying to abide by the law. But the, the... You wanna think about this first through the lens of the molecule.

    21. KCKelsey Chittick1:51:07

        Yep.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:51:07

        And, and I've shared with her this framework that I've borrowed from somebody else that I think is very valuable, right? Which is, um, 'cause I talk about this all the time with patients, right? So, you know, one, one of the questions you ask a patient during an intake with them is, you know, "Tell me how many drinks you have in an average week."

    23. KCKelsey Chittick1:51:21

        Right.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:51:21

        "Tell me which recreational drugs you use." Um, and this is not a judgmental discussion, but it's, you really wanna understand this. And look, a lot of times people say, "Yep, I use coke once a month. I do this, I do that, I do this, one of that." And so [lips smack] the, the thing I discuss with them, and this is what, sort of what I explained to Olivia once, was, you know, there are certain drugs, alcohol being a drug as well, where they change your state.

    25. KCKelsey Chittick1:51:44

        I love... I've heard this podcast you did.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:51:46

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    27. KCKelsey Chittick1:51:46

        Love this.

    28. PAPeter Attia1:51:47

        But they don't change traits. And then there are others that change your state, and if you use them correctly, they can change your traits.

    29. KCKelsey Chittick1:51:55

        Yep.

    30. PAPeter Attia1:51:55

        And so I said, and by the way, there are legal and illegal molecules in both of those camps.
19. 1:58:24 – 2:04:53

    The concept of “radical acceptance” and the peace that comes with it

    1. PAPeter Attia1:58:24

       equip ourselves? Um, y- you mentioned something in your book that resonates deeply with me, which is radical acceptance.

    2. KCKelsey Chittick1:58:30

       Mm.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:58:31

       When did you first encounter that term?

    4. KCKelsey Chittick1:58:34

       Um, Tara Brach.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:58:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. KCKelsey Chittick1:58:37

       I probably read it... My mom was into this stuff for a long time, so this was always in the background noise of my life. My dad left when I was 15, and my mom really went on this like journey. So these books and these people were a part of it. But I... The idea of radical acceptance that, that, that something wasn't good or bad probably happened, I mean, after Nate died. I mean, I don't think... I think I knew of it in practice, but when everything's good seems good, it's hard to... You're like, "Oh yeah, good luck to those people that, you know, have a sick kid or whatever. I hope they just accept what is." Um, and I always thought that before I really experienced it, that it is what it is was an annoying statement.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:59:17

       [chuckles]

    8. KCKelsey Chittick1:59:18

       And it was kind of just like a throwaway, like, "Oh, well it is what it is. Life's shit, so just accept it." And now I'm like, "No, it's beautiful. It is what it is." How wonderful is that? Like c- can you just be with whatever without... It doesn't mean it won't feel hard. It doesn't mean it's not miserable. It just means it is exactly what you are going through, and the resistance to that and the wishing it was different is what kills you. So a lot of people say, "How are you doing so well?" And I say, "Because I don't wish it was different." That's pretty much it.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:59:50

       Do you think your kids understand that?

    10. KCKelsey Chittick1:59:52

        I don't know. I don't... They're still-- They were so young and they st- You know, I'm st- I'm really working on understanding that they have their own path to this and their own journey, and we all have different relationships to Nate and different stories that we tell in our head. I would say they are surprised at how great life is compared to what they thought it would be when he first died. Sometimes they'll say, "I mean, isn't it great we're so happy again?"

    11. PAPeter Attia2:00:17

        Mm.

    12. KCKelsey Chittick2:00:18

        "Isn't it great that we're h- we have fun again?" Um, "Look at, look at how, look at how good our life is." And so that's their way of saying like, we made it in some way. We, we accepted what is, and we continued to build a life that was beautiful. We talk a lot in our house about what would Nate want us to do, and Nate would want us to be joyful. So if you wanna honor your dead person, the best way to do it is live the life they would want you to live if they were here. So in that sense, the kids, you know... We can't even take it out anymore. He's gone, and so our life is this. And, um, we miss him and we're happy, and we accept it and we miss him. But yeah, radical acceptance, I think it gets easier the more you do it. So I, and I mean little things. You know, you practice at the stoplight. You're like, "Eh, the light isn't moving." And it's all the things we've all read, but until you have to practice it 'cause you're in such a dark spot, um, I don't know that you, you can. And people always say like, "Oh, can you transform without going through something big?" I don't know if you can. I don't know. 'Cause I, I had a, I, I read it all and I intellectually knew it all, but until I had to really dig into those practices, I didn't, it... I was glad I, I would say prepare with them, but until you get to that point, there is magic in that transformation when you do the work. Um, but I don't know. What are your thoughts? You think you have to go through hard things?

    13. PAPeter Attia2:01:45

        I don't think I'm equipped to answer the way you are.

    14. KCKelsey Chittick2:01:47

        Yeah.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:01:49

        I suspect so, but

    16. KCKelsey Chittick2:01:51

        I mean, I, I was hoping not

    17. PAPeter Attia2:01:53

        Or at least a near miss. You know, I, I have a good friend, Rick Elias, who was actually on the podcast, and, um, he was on that United Dir- U- Uni- uh, US Air flight that, uh, was gonna crash and somehow made the miraculous landing in the Hudson River-

    18. KCKelsey Chittick2:02:08

        Mm

    19. PAPeter Attia2:02:08

        ... in 2009. And so in that sense, you know, nothing bad happened to him, but there was a two-minute period where he really thought, "No, no, no, this is it. I am dead." He went through all of that, and Rick is a... You know, that was 13 years ago this month, and Rick is still living the life of the guy who was given a second chance.

    20. KCKelsey Chittick2:02:30

        I agree.

    21. PAPeter Attia2:02:31

        So y- you know, could Rick have come to this same set of principles that guide his life today without that? I, I just don't know.

    22. KCKelsey Chittick2:02:40

        Yeah.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:02:40

        My guess is there's maybe somebody that could. I don't know that I could.

    24. KCKelsey Chittick2:02:43

        Yeah. It's, it's just interesting, and I... There's just a real relief when you stop wishing it was different, whatever it is. When you stop wishing whatever you're going through wasn't, and you just go like, "Let's roll." Like, what, what I, what I, what I've got to learn, what's on the other side of this, um, what will it feel like when it's transformed into something different? What can I get excited about? It's... I just, I think that the, the practices work. That's what I believe now. I believe that you can get through things, and I've, I've got a lot of easy, easy ways because my situation is fairly easy if you look at it the way we can spin some of it. It's better that he's not here. I was left with resources. I always think, too, about grief. Like, if a woman has resources, it's a very different experience than if you don't. So, you know, um, there's a thousand things that interact to make your experience what it is, but internally, the Stoics and the, then the Buddhists and believing in something bigger than you, those are kind of key pillars, at least for me.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:03:47

        What would you say to a man or woman or a child listening to this right now who's three months out from that tragedy, based on everything you've learned?

    26. KCKelsey Chittick2:03:58

        To start, just hang on. Just hang on for now. Um, I think, like I said, humans are, are built to last. We're meant to... We're, we're built to make it through things. Um, and, and do the work, whatever that work is for you. Whatever... Wherever you're trying to go, do the work, and the work will eventually support you. Um, you know, you get... Like, I think of it, if you're over here and you're trying to get over here, and there's a, there's a... You gotta build a bridge. If you, if you... Once you build the bridge, you'll get over there, but you gotta go to work. Um, the bridge isn't there yet, and that's where the meditation and the reading and the gratitude and the changing your brain, that's... Those are each plank that you're building to get over to the other side. And if you do the work, you're gonna look back and be like, "Damn," like, "I never thought I could build that bridge." And you're gonna be more confident and more joyful because you just saw you did something you never thought you could do. So life just got sweeter.

20. 2:04:53 – 2:11:49

    The up-and-down experience of writing her book

    1. PAPeter Attia2:04:53

       How hard was it to write the book?

    2. KCKelsey Chittick2:04:57

       You know, I didn't have any pressure around it, and I know... I think you're writing a book. Um, I didn't have any pressure on it 'cause it was just-

    3. PAPeter Attia2:05:02

       Not, not why I asked, by the way. [laughs]

    4. KCKelsey Chittick2:05:03

       Yeah, I didn't... No, no, no. Um, no, but I, I remember, um, Jill talking about that you were writing one. For me, I had to get the story out. It was very personal because I wanted my kids to remember.

    5. PAPeter Attia2:05:14

       Mm.

    6. KCKelsey Chittick2:05:14

       And I wanted to remember 'cause I knew I was gonna love again, and I knew I was gonna date, and I knew I was gonna have other relationships. And time is a miracle when it comes to life because as time goes on, the pain just... It does gradually get better. And so I thought, "I better make sure that the, the story of this great man is down so that my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren will know where they came from and who he was and how this all happened." Somewhere in the middle, you think, "This is such shit" that I, I... It's embarrassing to, like... I, I shouldn't even show it to the, my worst enemy 'cause this is just blabber of nothing, and I'm so bored with what I wrote. It's so dumb, and it's so ridiculous that where, I mean, just stop now because this is torture for you and nobody's g- this is horrible. And then you get to a point where you've written enough, and then it gets to an editor, and they make it a little better, and they give you some feedback, and you just start cutting stuff out, and that's kind of... Then it got fun 'cause I was like, "Just cut out all the junk that you tried to make and just tell it like it is, and don't worry about what people think." And I'm so glad I did it. I can't imagine doing it again, and I know I want to, but I don't even know where you start. It, it feels surreal now. You forget. You forget sitting there looking at your computer being like, "This, possibly the boringest paragraph I've ever written," where like, [chuckles] I just like, you just... It's a unique experience writing a book because the internal, um, dialogue and anxiety and just disgust with what you're putting out is really epic. Just because you're just, you're, you're reading what you already hated that you wrote, and it's just double f- flogging, you know? Um, but I, I would tell people, "Write it down," because man, it, it helps somebody. Like, somebody is, is gonna be helped by it or get inspired by it, and just go easy on yourself with a book.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:07:05

       What's the most surprising thing that you've received as a, as a way of feedback?

    8. KCKelsey Chittick2:07:11

       God, there's, there's been so many people that have written, that have said, "Thank you for showing," um, "Thank you for being honest." And I think what that means is the good and the bad, like not trying to play grief either way, like that there is a duality to everything in life. And people are like, "Thank you for letting us know that it was awful and you felt like you were on fire, and you couldn't wait to have sex with other people." Like, "Thank you for knowing that, like, you know that you lost the man of your dreams, and you also get to meet other people and have a new experience, and that's gonna, that's, that might be exactly what was meant to be." This sense that everything isn't good or bad either way. So there's a whole life I'm gonna have that I never even knew possible, and there was one that I really loved that got taken away. So people say like, "Thank you for giving it a multifaceted approach to this experience I'm having."

    9. PAPeter Attia2:08:05

       Did your kids read it before you published it?

    10. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:07

        No.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:08:07

        Have they read it now?

    12. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:08

        No. They don't want to either.

    13. PAPeter Attia2:08:10

        Mm.

    14. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:11

        They are terribly embarrassed by it and secretly proud. They don't want it out, and then Jack's like, "Uh, Mom, I'm taking your book to the, my school counselor, 'cause... Well, she asked what your job was and I didn't know what to tell her. I said, 'She's, she wrote a book.'" [laughs] And I was like... So he, they're proud of it, but it, they're also way more private than me. I'm the least private person on the planet, so I'm learning to understand that they'll tell it in their time.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:08:36

        And they'll read it in their time necessarily.

    16. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:37

        And they'll read it in their time. And their experience will be very different from what I wrote. I'm fairly certain that they'll read chapters and go, "That's not how it went."

    17. PAPeter Attia2:08:44

        [laughs]

    18. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:45

        Like, "I didn't do that. I didn't say that." Um, but we'll see. I don't know. I don't know how they'll be.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:08:52

        Well, Kelsey, I, um, I, I can't thank you enough. You know, um, this is just such a beautiful story and-

    20. KCKelsey Chittick2:08:58

        Thanks

    21. PAPeter Attia2:08:59

        ... um, I, I think people are gonna be infinitely enriched, um, whether they've experienced something like this or whether they will. Um, because I think, you know, we all will.

    22. KCKelsey Chittick2:09:10

        Yeah.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:09:11

        It might not be as sudden, it might not be as tragic with a capital T, but, um, the human experience is one of loss.

    24. KCKelsey Chittick2:09:18

        Mm-hmm.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:09:19

        So, um, thank you for everything you've done.

    26. KCKelsey Chittick2:09:22

        Thank you so much for having me. It really means a lot to me.

    27. PAPeter Attia2:09:25

        Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Drive. If you're interested in diving deeper into any topics we discuss, we've created a membership program that allows us to bring you more in-depth exclusive content without relying on paid ads. It's our goal to ensure members get back much more than the price of the subscription. Now to that end, membership benefits include a bunch of things. One, totally kickass comprehensive podcast show notes that detail every topic, paper, person, thing we discuss on each episode. The word on the street is nobody's show notes rival these. Monthly AMA episodes or Ask Me Anything episodes, hearing these episodes completely. Access to our private podcast feed that allows you to hear everything without having to listen to spiels like this. The Qualies, which are a super short podcast that we release every Tuesday through Friday highlighting the best questions, topics, and tactics discussed on previous episodes of The Drive. This is a great way to catch up on previous episodes without having to go back and necessarily listen to every one. Steep discounts on products that I believe in, but for which I'm not getting paid to endorse. And a whole bunch of other benefits that we continue to trickle in as time goes on. If you wanna learn more and access these member-only benefits, you can head over to peterattiamd.com/subscribe. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, all with the ID peterattiamd. You can also leave us a review on Apple Podcast or whatever podcast player you listen on. This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor-patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and the materials linked to this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content on this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice from any medical condition they have, and they should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions. Finally, I take conflicts of interest very seriously. For all of my disclosures and the companies I invest in or advise, please visit peterattiamd.com/about where I keep an up-to-date and active list of such companies. [outro music]

Episode duration: 2:11:49