Skip to content

By playing, you agree to uListen's Terms and Privacy Policy and YouTube's Terms of Service.

Peter Attia MDPeter Attia MD

#42–Avrum Bluming, M.D. and Carol Tavris, Ph.D.: A compelling case for hormone replacement therapy

Original release date: 2/25/19 In this episode, Avrum Bluming, hematologist, medical oncologist, and emeritus clinical professor at USC, and Carol Tavris, social psychologist and author of Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me), discuss their collaboration on their recent book, Estrogen Matters. Their book takes on the very polarizing and confusing topic of hormone replacement therapy for women suffering with symptoms of menopause. In many ways, the story and history of HRT is in striking parallel to the bad science that led up to the dietary guidelines being set forth in 1980. Carol and Avrum make a compelling case that most women benefit greatly from being on postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy, and can do so without increasing their risk of breast cancer. We also cover the history of HRT, the impact of the Women’s Health Initiative, and take a deep dive into each of the clinical conditions for which HRT should be considered, such as cardiovascular disease and neurodegenerative disease, and osteoporosis, to name a few. Dr. Bluming has graciously offered his email to take questions directly from fans of this podcast: avrumzbluming@gmail.com We discuss: -The background of Carol and Avrum, and the impetus for writing Estrogen Matters [8:45]; -The sad early history of hormone replacement therapy, treatments for prostate and breast cancer, and the difference between the treatment of women vs. men [14:00]; -What hormones do, and why they drop off rapidly in women compared to gradually in men [20:15]; -Mistreatment of women leading to great skepticism [23:45]; -Breast cancer vs heart disease: Comparing the incidence and mortality in women [27:00]; -Case studies of women suffering symptoms of menopause [30:00]; -What are Carol and Avrum’s true motivations in this endeavor? [32:45]; -The changing perceptions of HRT, the impact of the Women’s Health Initiative (WHI), and the problems with the WHI [37:45]; -Is this one big conspiracy? The uncanny resemblance of the story of HRT and how the dietary guidelines were created [46:00]; -Why people (falsely) think estrogen causes a 25% increase in breast cancer, and a lesson in absolute vs. relative risk [57:15]; -The truth about progesterone and cancer risk, and the best types of estrogen and progesterone to be taking [1:09:00]; -The Women’s Health Initiative: the reported findings, walking back their bold claims, and their hesitance to admit they were wrong [1:17:45]; -Brain benefits of HRT, Alzheimer’s disease in women, and estrogen as a preventative treatment for AD [1:22:45]; -The impact of HRT on heart disease, the ideal time to start HRT, and the risks associated with HRT [1:26:45]; -The benefits of estrogen on bone health, and the incidence and mortality of hip fractures [1:33:15]; -Colon cancer: Can HRT reduce the risk of colon cancer? [1:38:15]; -Diabetes: Can HRT reduce the risk of developing diabetes? [1:40:30]; -The downsides of hormone replacement therapy (HRT) [1:41:30]; -How to approach your doctor who may already have a very strong point of view about HRT [1:42:15]; -What kind of research needs to be done to answer the remaining questions about the benefits and risks of HRT? [1:48:30]; -Cancer: Our evolving understanding and the future of treatment [1:59:15]; -Welcoming the critics: Avrum and Carol want to start a conversation [2:02:00]; -Are there racial differences in benefits and risks with HRT? [2:04:15]; -The reactions to Estrogen Matters, and why it is a must read [2:09:15]; -HRT after a diagnosis of breast cancer [2:13:45]; and -More. Show notes page: https://peterattiamd.com/caroltavris-avrumbluming/ About: The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 10 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter is the founder of Attia Medical, PC, a medical practice with offices in San Diego and New York City, focusing on the applied science of longevity. The practice applies nutritional biochemistry, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, techniques to increase distress tolerance, lipidology, pharmacology, and four-system endocrinology to increase lifespan (delaying the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life). Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com/ Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/ Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/ Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Play: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGooglePlay

Peter AttiahostDr. Avrum Blumingguest
Jan 8, 20202h 20mWatch on YouTube ↗

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Bluming and Tavris Challenge the Women's Health Initiative's Case Against Hormone Therapy

  1. Bluming and Tavris recount how breast cancer treatment long rested on the assumption that estrogen causes the disease, leading to aggressive procedures on women that were never tried on men.
  2. They critique the 2002 Women's Health Initiative, citing an older, unhealthy study population, exclusion of highly symptomatic women, a press release ahead of the journal article, and a breast cancer signal that was not statistically significant.
  3. They walk through the evidence for benefits of estrogen on Alzheimer's risk, heart disease, hip fracture and colon cancer, alongside real risks such as blood clots and gallstones.
  4. The discussion widens to evidence quality, arguing that randomized trials and observational studies each have flaws and that convergent evidence from many directions matters most.
  5. Both authors stress the book's aim is to empower women to weigh the data with their physicians, while acknowledging open questions such as HRT after breast cancer.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Estrogen drops sharply at menopause and symptoms last longer than assumed

Bluming says estrogen falls to about 1% of premenopausal levels, and symptoms last around seven and a half years on average, not one or two, often with depression, joint pain and cognitive problems misattributed to other causes.

The WHI population was not representative of women starting menopause

Tavris says the average age was 63, most women were overweight or obese, more than half were smokers, and highly symptomatic women were excluded, yet the results were extended to all women.

The reported breast cancer increase was small and contested

The 26% relative increase with estrogen plus progestin was not statistically significant, amounted to under one extra case per thousand, and Bluming argues it arose from a control group with lower-than-expected risk because of prior hormone use.

Heart disease dwarfs breast cancer as a risk to women

Using a chart of ten-year mortality ratios, Attia shows heart disease is more likely to kill women than breast cancer at every age, about sevenfold across a lifetime.

Timing and preexisting disease matter for cardiovascular risk

Bluming says women with existing narrowed vessels or starting more than ten years after menopause face a raised risk mostly in the first year, whereas those starting near menopause without cardiovascular disease do not.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

I'm a medical oncologist, and I don't yet know what cancer is. And I'm in very good company because I don't know anybody who knows what cancer is, even though many will tell you they do, and they're wrong.

— Dr. Avrum Bluming

Heart disease kills more women than the next sixteen causes of death, including all forms of cancer, AIDS, and accidents.

— Dr. Avrum Bluming

estrogen plummets to 1% of what it was before menopause. I think most women have no idea that it's that great a drop in estrogen levels

— Dr. Avrum Bluming

But the alternative to over-medicalizing our problems is not to under-medicalize them either.

— Dr. Carol Tavris

They have no incentive to. They are the Goliath. Why does Goliath want to argue with David and Jane?

— Dr. Carol Tavris

History of breast cancer treatment and estrogenCritique of the Women's Health InitiativeAbsolute versus relative riskAlzheimer's disease and estrogenHeart disease timing windowBone health and hip fracturesRandomized trials versus observational evidence

High quality AI-generated summary created from speaker-labeled transcript.

Get more out of YouTube videos.

Read along on your phone, search it beside the video, or ask your favorite AI app what was said.