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Peter Attia MDPeter Attia MD

Freedom, PTSD, war, and life through an evolutionary lens | Sebastian Junger & Peter Attia (Ep. 195)

View show notes for this episode: https://bit.ly/33fvyg8 Become a member to receive exclusive content: https://bit.ly/3sNDMoz Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://bit.ly/3svVkFf Sebastian Junger is an award-winning journalist, documentary filmmaker, and New York Times best-selling author. In this wide-ranging discussion, Sebastian shares stories from his time as a war reporter and how it shaped his understanding of the psychological effects of combat, including the sacred bond of soldiers, the forces that unify a tribe, and the psychological mechanisms that protect humans from painful experiences. He draws upon his personal struggle with PTSD as he discusses trauma as an all-too-common consequence of war and the importance of community in the healing process. He explains his interest in viewing human behavior through an evolutionary lens, including how it influences his parenting style, and he voices concerns over society’s continuous shift away from our evolutionary roots. Sebastian also tells the story of his near-death experience and his new perspective on the possibility of an afterlife.  Additionally, Sebastian shares his thoughts on the mental health implications of current events, such as the pandemic and the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, and contemplates what it really means to be “free” in modern society. We discuss: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:10 - Sebastian’s upbringing and early lessons about the evil of fascism 00:09:55 - Sebastian’s search for a career, interest in writing, and what he loved about tree removal 00:18:58 - How Sebastian became a great writer 00:25:35 - Sebastian’s experience with Achilles injuries 00:28:34 - Work as a war reporter and his experience in combat in Afghanistan 00:38:36 - Psychological effects of war and Sebastian’s own experience with PTSD 00:52:25 - The sacred bond of soldiers and what Sebastian learned from his time with troops in Afghanistan 01:05:05 - An evolutionary perspective on the forces that unify and bind tribes 01:14:46 - Hunter-gatherer societies, dealing with loss, and the ancestral connection to the spiritual realm 01:20:19 - Psychological mechanisms that protect humans from painful experiences and the power in giving thanks 01:29:08 - How parenting has changed Sebastian, and the incredible pain of losing a child 01:42:04 - PTSD and the influence of community on healing 01:48:15 - Isolation of modern society and the debate over young kids sleeping in bed with their parents 01:54:32 - Why Sebastian doesn’t own a smartphone 02:01:43 - Parenting through an evolutionary lens 02:06:17 - Sebastian’s near-death experience and new perspective on the possibility of an afterlife 02:26:54 - Sebastian’s experience with depression and anxiety 02:33:11 - The pandemic’s impact on mental health 02:39:07 - Sebastian’s thoughts on the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan 02:44:52 - Sebastian’s latest book—Freedom, and knowing when to quit 03:04:52 - Defining freedom in modern society -------- About: The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 30 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life). Learn more: https://bit.ly/3Bcyzdm Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGoogle

Peter AttiahostSebastian Jungerguest
Feb 14, 20223h 18mWatch on YouTube ↗

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At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Sebastian Junger on war, trauma, tribe, mortality, and freedom

  1. Junger traces his path from an anti-fascist, pacifist-but-duty-minded upbringing through tree work and writing to war reporting in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Liberia, where he developed undiagnosed PTSD.
  2. He argues that human bonding evolved in small groups facing danger, which explains the intoxicating loyalty of soldiers and firefighters and why crises such as the Blitz or 9/11 can unify societies.
  3. Junger contends that modern affluent societies treat PTSD poorly because of isolation, citing communal recovery in other societies, and applies the same evolutionary logic to kids sleeping with parents and to rejecting smartphones.
  4. He recounts a near-fatal ruptured aneurysm in June 2020, a vision of his dead father, the lasting anxiety that followed, and his new curiosity about what happens after death.
  5. In discussing the Afghanistan withdrawal and his book Freedom, he explores how underdogs keep autonomy by running, fighting and thinking, and why knowing when to quit and escaping addiction matter to personal freedom.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Junger's father taught him that citizenship carries obligations without requiring blind support for war.

When Junger resisted signing the draft registration card, his father said he owed his country something, should sign, and should protest and accept prison if a war proved immoral.

Good writing is efficiency, rhythm and originality.

Junger says he writes like a road paver, going slowly and polishing as he goes, and that he cuts any phrase readers have already seen elsewhere.

Combat trauma often comes from witnessing human suffering rather than from danger itself.

Junger says the danger is easier to process, while the sight of dead and maimed children, such as the 27 bodies in Liberia, never goes away and led to a delayed panic attack in Paris.

Humans are wired to bond through shared danger, and being needed protects mental health.

Junger links this to adaptation in small ancestral groups and cites falling psych admissions during the Blitz, and says feeling necessary may be the ultimate antidote to depression.

Modern isolation worsens trauma recovery and fuels distress.

He argues that affluent societies show higher PTSD, and that warriors well embedded in their community recovered without the depression component, while the pandemic's isolation and contradictory leadership messages undercut the usual unifying effect of crisis.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

I think one of the great things to work on is to know in the moment when things are over.

— Sebastian Junger

that sense of being necessary might be the ultimate antidote to the experience of depression.

— Sebastian Junger

Americans are the only mammal that doesn't sleep with its young. Let's just put it that way.

— Sebastian Junger

the ability for humans to do that for each other is a profound thing, and it's what makes human society possible.

— Sebastian Junger

you don't do things for symbolism. You don't do things 'cause they're a good ending.

— Sebastian Junger

Junger's family history and views on fascism and dutyWriting craft and tree-climbing workWar reporting and PTSDSoldier brotherhood and tribal bondingEvolutionary parenting and co-sleepingSmartphones, addiction, and freedomNear-death experience and fear of mortality

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