How Trump’s Fight With the Pope Backfired | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 Don't fuck with El Papa.

Kara Swisher 0:01 I know.

Scott Galloway 0:01 Even though I, I always think there's certain political instincts that the president has that I don't see that end up being less wrong than I thought and sometimes right, I do not see any upside here.

Kara Swisher 0:16 [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:25 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:27 You're back, I see.

Scott Galloway 0:29 I am back. That's right.

Kara Swisher 0:29 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:30 That's right.

Kara Swisher 0:30 Did you have a good time off? Did you have a nice time?

Scott Galloway 0:32 Yeah. I didn't do a whole lot, but yeah, it was really nice. I was in Florida. A lot of walks on the beach with my dogs. Um, I actually got kind of bored, which was a, a lovely-

Kara Swisher 0:42 Good

Scott Galloway 0:42 ... and strange feeling.

Kara Swisher 0:43 Well, we missed you. We had some good hosts, but no one is you. Anyway, we gotta get to things.

Scott Galloway 0:47 Okay.

Kara Swisher 0:47 Let's get to things.

Scott Galloway 0:48 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 0:48 There's a lot of news. Jesus Christ.

Scott Galloway 0:49 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:49 There was so much while you were away. I think we've forgotten that stuff. But Pope

Kara Swisher 0:53 Leo says he has no fear of the Trump administration after the president lashed out at him on Truth Social Sunday night. Trump called the Pope, quote, "weak on crime" and, quote, "terrible on foreign policy" in his post. Neither one of those are his jobs. He accused Pope Leo of, quote, "catering to the radical left" and then told him to focus on, quote, "being a great pope, not a politician." Trump later posted an AI-generated image of himself as Jesus, though it looks like he might have deleted it and told reporters that he thought the image was him as a doctor. Oh my God, he's such a liar. We'll get to... Well, let me general. It's not just the Pope. Trump called out Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, and Alex Jones over, over their criticism of the war last week. Alex Jones responded, "We are witnessing the Epstein presidency." He's a nod to Scott Galloway there. That Candace Owens said that it may be time to put grandpa up in a home. Uh, let's see. We'll get to the latest on the war, but first, talk about this, this alienation of everybody. It seems demented. He was tweeting all last night from, like, nine PM to four AM, like, regularly. Thoughts?

Scott Galloway 1:58 I, I don't see the strategy here. And granted, I think Trump has had an ability to zag when everyone else is zigging. I thought one of the greatest insights in political history was when Trump told somebody, "Everybody claims to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative." He said, "The key is to be fiscally liberal and socially conservative," and it struck me that that was sort of a genius political positioning. But I fail to see how alienating a core constituency of the Republican Party, and that is Ev-Evangelical Christians, by taking on the Pope. I mean, people say Social Security is the third rail. I do think the American public is coming to grips with the fact that the wealthiest generation in the history of the planet probably shouldn't be taking one point two trillion dollars from the most anxious, obese, and depressed generation in history, and that's people under the age of 40. But that used to be the third rail, but I would argue kind of the most obvious third rail. You don't go after the... I mean, El... Don't fuck with El Papa. So I, I just-- Even though I, I always think there's certain political instincts that the president has that I don't see that-

Kara Swisher 2:57 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 2:58 ... end up being less wrong than I thought and sometimes right-

Kara Swisher 3:01 Yeah

Scott Galloway 3:01 ... I do not see any upside here.

Kara Swisher 3:03 Also an articulate pope, a very articulate and younger pope.

Scott Galloway 3:06 Outstanding, smart-

Kara Swisher 3:08 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 3:08 ... measured.

Kara Swisher 3:09 American.

Scott Galloway 3:09 Kind of everything you would want in a leader. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 3:12 Uh, what are your thoughts?

Kara Swisher 3:13 American.

Scott Galloway 3:13 I don't get this at all.

Kara Swisher 3:15 I, I think this guy is incredibly popular. I don't, I don't understand why. I think he's jealous of his popularity and his intelligence and, you know, this guy's been speaking out as, as popes sometimes do on wars, you know. Francis did the same thing, and we don't wanna see all this war, and the way you talk about, like last week when you weren't here, talking, you know, the decimation of a civilization, um, and just j- as, as a tactic, it was just demented. It was demented. And I think he was responsibly talking out the way a pope might do, and he has been very firm on war. Like, "Let's stop it. Let's stop the war" thing. He's still, you know, awfully conservative, even though you, you don't think about it. But he see- I suppose he seems liberal 'cause he says no war. I don't know how that is no war 'cause... And he dovetails, by the way, with the media, with the MAGA media, which is very against the war. Like, not just M-Marjorie Taylor Greene, another one. There's bunches of them that are now, uh, Tim Pool. All of them are sort of, I mean, to an extent, um, Rogan, but he of course, you know, high-fived him at this whatever wrestling stupid thing they were at. Um, but I think, you know, uh, they're like, "MAGA media doesn't speak full of MAGA." I'm like, "They kinda do." They kind of... There's millions and millions and millions of followers, and they're growing like crazy. And so I'm not so sure picking a fight with these mouth-m-mouthy people from Alex Jones to Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson, Candace, and Owen, and, um, uh, Marjorie Taylor Greene's a particularly good idea at this moment, but I don't know. I think he-- A-as I've said, I think he's suffering deeply cognitively, and he's losing it. That's my feeling, just looking at the tweets seems to me.

Scott Galloway 4:52 Yeah, he-- It does feel like he's lashing out. I don't... Yeah, I, I, I... I'm having trouble. Susie Wiles has ended up being more genius than crazy. This just feels crazy. It feels as if-

Kara Swisher 5:03 Yeah, she's, she has, uh, breast cancer, you know. She's may not be as there as present. She says she is, but it feels like she's gone, left the building.

Scott Galloway 5:10 Oh, I didn't know that.

Kara Swisher 5:11 Um, I don't know who's around him. And then look, Marco Rubio looked like a loser at that WW-whatever, whatever was happening, the MF whatever, the fighters. I think it was a fight.

Scott Galloway 5:20 Did I tell you I got invited to the UFC fight at the White House? [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 5:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah. You have to go.

Scott Galloway 5:24 No. There's no way I'm going.

Kara Swisher 5:25 Oh, come on. And with a little camera on your head. That would've been fun.

Scott Galloway 5:28 I find, I find UFC fights-

Kara Swisher 5:30 I know

Scott Galloway 5:30 ... disturbing. I really don't like seeing-

Kara Swisher 5:31 They are

Scott Galloway 5:31 ... young men who are in peak physical shape beating each other up-

Kara Swisher 5:34 Beating

Scott Galloway 5:34 ... like that.

Kara Swisher 5:35 Yep.

Scott Galloway 5:35 I just-

Kara Swisher 5:36 Yep.

Scott Galloway 5:36 Even boxing, which I think is-- I can see is such an in, in some ways such, so incredible.

Kara Swisher 5:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:42 Uh, even that disturbs me now as I get older.

Kara Swisher 5:44 It is. I went to a lot of boxing matches with my grandfather when I was a kid.

Scott Galloway 5:47 Really?

Kara Swisher 5:47 Not a lot, but enough. Wrestling, he was into wrestling, boxing.Uh, my brother, Jeff, went to a lot of them. Anyway, and he was a big sports and wrestling and boxing nut, but, um, and was a promoter in, of a lot of stuff up in-

Scott Galloway 6:00 Hmm

Kara Swisher 6:00 ... north Pennsylvania. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:01 Cole and boxing, and you turned out lesbian.

Kara Swisher 6:03 That's-

Scott Galloway 6:03 What a shocker.

Kara Swisher 6:04 I know. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 6:04 What a shocker.

Kara Swisher 6:06 I know. I know. I think he's-

Scott Galloway 6:07 How'd that happen?

Kara Swisher 6:07 I think Trump is losing-

Scott Galloway 6:08 It's in the batter, you homophobe.

Kara Swisher 6:10 I think Trump is losing his brain.

Scott Galloway 6:10 Anyway, so I can just hear people now going, "It's got something to do with your environment."

Kara Swisher 6:13 Yes. Yes. I think it had to do... Exactly. I'm a lesbian 'cause my grandfather took me to boxing.

Kara Swisher 6:18 Um, so as of this recording, by the way, the, the point is it's all about, um, what's happening in Iran and with Iran, and the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz is underway with more than 15 US warships in place to support the... Oh my God, this feels like a bad idea. Trump announced the blockade plan on Sunday, accusing Iran of world extortion. His threats came, [chuckles] he'd know, his threats came after peace talks ended, as you know, without a resolution, which often happens. By the way, I give J.D. Vance a hard time, but these things take time, obviously. Um, he was there leading the negotiations for the US and said Iran chose not to accept our terms. I think there was issues around the nuclear proliferation stuff. Um, Trump is also reportedly looking at limited military strikes in Iran in addition to the blockade. Um, uh, it, it's really, um, hard for him because he's stuck. As you said, he's painted himself into a corner many times. Um, they're not budging. Um, and, and also, uh, one of... I wanna note, we've seen a big new type of target in this war, big tech data centers. Last month, Amazon data centers in the UAE and Bahrain were damaged in drone strikes, and Iran has been threatening to attack US companies in the Middle East. I don't know what to say here. What a mess. He just can't, like, get himself out of this situation since these people aren't budging. Even if they're on their back foot, they still have advantage in a very... In, in a weird way, the way Ukraine does with Russia and, and, you know, it's very hard to unseat them.

Scott Galloway 7:44 So I actually think the illuminating analogy here is the WGA strike, and that is key. Robert McNamara, um, said this back in the Vietnam War, that to, to defeat an enemy, you have to really understand them, and also you have to understand the incentives at play. And so going back to the WGA strike, they said, "All right. We're gonna shut... We're gonna go on strike," which means your ability to create content has been cut off. But what they didn't realize is the most powerful person on the other side of the table was Netflix, and Netflix could look around and say, "Okay. Our queue, you know, people's playlist is two or three years deep." I could watch Netflix for the next two or three years and still not get through my playlist. Linear TV, especially late night TV, which people tune in every night, they're not interested in w-w-watching Jimmy Kimmel run down the day's news from two years ago. The other streaming networks who had not been spending $18 billion a year, who had spent $10, $2 billion a year, their pool was really shallow. So the most powerful person on the other side of the table had an incentive to not come-

Kara Swisher 8:48 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 8:48 ... to an agreement. And the WGA never recognized that they were negotiating against themselves because the, the other side would pretend to care and not offend anybody and make sure this strike went on for as long as possible to cede advantage to Netflix as everybody else... All that happened coming out of that, that strike was the most powerful player on the other side of the table garnered and registered additional value. And this is exactly what's going on here. And to a certain extent, J.D. Vance, w-well, they poured honey on him and sent him hunting for bears because the reality is the incentive was to draw out the talks for two or three weeks, uh, have an opportunity to maybe re-arm, regroup your missile launch capability, lay some more mines in the Strait of Hormuz. But their incentive is for this thing to go longer because they have stumbled upon vis-à-vis our in, our head up your ass strategic planning around not going in with allies, around not securing the Strait of Hormuz before military action, but no goals, not, not enabling and coordinating with our Gulf allies. Iran's, Iran has... We have given Iran something that quite frankly is probably more dangerous and effective than enriched uranium, and that is their ability to put a stranglehold on a chokehold of the global economy called the Strait. So they have an incentive for this to go longer right now. The IRGC looks to be gaining strength, not losing it through this. They have shown an ability to resist or survive this type of military action, and they have stumbled upon a choke point which has given them unbelievable political leverage.

Kara Swisher 10:26 Which they, they had but didn't think they had before. This is... It's a really... And, and sort of Trump's like, "Don't block that strait." And it'll be interesting with US ships there. Now, this could be an, an economic way to squeeze them, which is important-

Scott Galloway 10:40 Hundred percent

Kara Swisher 10:40 ... I think as always. Um, but it puts... Like, I'm like, "A ship is there. Oh my God, a drone, a speedboat coming towards it." You just feel like they're... We're kind of big and right out there, so open for attack in a way that they don't have to do much to really create a problem for all of us, right? So that's 15 ships sitting there like, "Oh, geez." This guy, this is the guy who govern, who, who campaigned on America first and not this. So I think it would only hurt his political standing here and at the same time make him crazier than ever when they don't behave, which they don't want, they don't have to behave. And it's their cu- Their, it-- You know, they have the, I guess they have the home advantage in some weird way compared... Unless we really wanna commit troops. I can't, I can't imagine being... I don't have sympathy for J.D. Vance 'cause I think he's the Cybertruck of politicians. But he, they really put him, like, in a situation, and there, he was not gonna succeed in these talks. And-

Scott Galloway 11:38 That's exactly right

Kara Swisher 11:39 ... he also sent him, you know, failed venture capitalists with two real estate people, and then apparently the guy who's leading, I was reading David Ignatius's column, and I'm gonna mispronounce his name, so I'm not going to. Leading it is one of the possible candidates to run Iran at some point. Very, very worldly person, high level on every ad. They sent apparently their best people, and we sent them, which is like... I, I know we probably sent experts with them too, but it's not like... We aren't showing our finest diplomaticShowing if we're gonna have any seriousness. If maybe, maybe he doesn't... And he's like, "I don't care if it works or not." That's not some messaging from the president you'd like to hear. I don't know. He just keeps stepping in it because he's old

Scott Galloway 12:20 The, the majority of battles are won before anyone steps on the field, and that is their supply chain, their strength, their military, their brute force advantage. This negotiation was over before it star-started because one group showed up with, with incentives to not negotiate or to extend the negotiations to rearm, but not to come to an agreement. Now, having said that, to be fair, this is, in my view, the exact right move given where we are right now, and that is that we block the Strait of Hormuz from any Iranian ports because that will bring European allies and China to the table who quite frankly-

Kara Swisher 12:52 They are. They are doing it. Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 12:53 ... who, who have more to lose than we do. Now-

Kara Swisher 12:57 Yeah

Scott Galloway 12:57 ... this notion of we broke it, you fix it, it diminishes our credibility globally for a long time. But something we have taken for granted, like a lot of things we've taken for granted, that to-took huge sacrifice, huge resources, a lot of brave patriots from around the world giving their lives such that we can enjoy these things. One of those things is the freedom of maritime navigation, and that is Singapore has decided not to sequester and block and control the straits of Singapore. And if you, if you start blocking straits through the fear of military action such that no one will insure the hundred or two hundred million dollars of cargo, that strait is blocked off. So everybody-

Kara Swisher 13:37 Right

Scott Galloway 13:37 ... especially the Gulf players, and most especially Russia-

Kara Swisher 13:42 Yeah

Scott Galloway 13:42 ... Iran, and China have a vested interest in the Strait of Hormuz being open for their ships. So America, and I think this is the right move, have said, "Okay, w-

Kara Swisher 13:51 Yeah, many... Ignatius thought so too. But here's the thing, I just-- these little drones and these little boats, I feel like 15 US warships, yikes. I just feel like we are putting ourselves way out there and it, it unnecessarily now that this is our only choice. That's the problem. I think it just-

Scott Galloway 14:10 Uh, we-- Let's be clear, not going to Congress, not enlisting Gulf allies, not enlisting European allies, not having a b- a clear exit strategy after certain military objectives were met or not met has put us in the definition of a quagmire. But right now they have to say to, to China and Iran, "We're gonna create an incentive for you to make sure that the strait is open," and a multinational force that keep, keeps the strait open to everyone's benefit, that is ob- that is objectives one-

Kara Swisher 14:42 Well

Scott Galloway 14:42 ... two, and three here.

Kara Swisher 14:44 Just nobody wants to help Trump. No one wants to help Trump because he's not Jesus. Um, but like, speaking of the sad situation for J.D. Vance, by the way, J.D. Vance happens to be Catholic, so that's even better. Uh, and he failed in Iran, which I think everyone expected,

Kara Swisher 14:58 despite some last-minute campaigning from him as well as Trump's endorsement. Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has been ousted after 16 years in power. Not a good sign for the Trump people. Orbán conceded defeat in the country's general election on Sunday, saying, "The results are painful but unequivocal." His opponent, Peter Magyar, called the election a miracle, telling supporters that, "We have liberated Hungary and have taken back our country." By the way, Magyar was a loyalist of Orbán and just broke with him over a pardon. Um, and so he-- it's like as if a rhino Republican won, essentially. He's not, you know, Mr. Liberal in any way. More than seventy-seven percent of registered voters cast ballots. Amazing. The highest turnout in a Hungarian election since the fall of communism. You know, it's a really interesting winner. Obviously, he's super handsome and kind of sexy and everything else, but he's not, he's not as liberal as you think. Let's just be clear. Um, and he also wasn't Orbán, uh, in the Orbán university. He switched parties. But again, it's very much like, oh, who, who switched? I don't know, George Conway becoming the president. You know what I mean? Someone who was conservative and now is i-it looks as if he's not. Um, so and, and George c-can be conservative and liberal on different things, but, uh, he's also running for Congress, by the way. But it's like that. Is this an indicator of a larger move away from the far right? I mean, obviously, Democrats can learn a lot, um, but this is a little different in, in Hungary, but it is a-- it's the end of an era, and J.D. Vance and Trump hugged, bear hugged Orbán. So, and so did, uh, Tucker Carlson, so did, um, uh, Elon Musk. That whole gang did also. Thoughts?

Scott Galloway 16:35 Since the US' decision to bomb Iran or increase whatever you want to call it, increase the military escalation, or some people would call it a new war, this is the biggest thing that's happened in the last month. This is Europe, uh, and a key component and a healthy, important, powerful economy saying, rejecting the movement to the far right. He said nice things about-- He said he hopes the UK rejoins the European Union. It is a huge win for Ukr- the, for Ukraine. They are pro-Ukraine, and it is a huge defeat for Russia that was hoping to turn, uh, Orbán and Hungary into a Russian satellite. Orbán was the friction-

Kara Swisher 17:13 Which he was headed that way. Yeah

Scott Galloway 17:14 ... Orbán was the friction in more European aid and support of Ukraine. It says something. It was symbolic that J.D. Vance went over there, and after going over, Orbán's popularity actually went down.

Kara Swisher 17:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:28 But something even more important, or I would argue-

Kara Swisher 17:30 The people

Scott Galloway 17:30 ... more important happened.

Kara Swisher 17:31 The people.

Scott Galloway 17:33 They had the, the largest turnout in the history of Hungary. More, a much greater percentage of Hungarians voted than have ever voted in a US election. There were people singing in the metro. There were people laughing and crying. This was, this was really a wonderful moment for the West, and that's still not the best thing that happened here. The best thing that happened, and it's a real testament to Viktor Orbán-Was he conceded the election. He said-- he, he, he thanked his people, he talked about Hungary, and he conceded the election. And when I saw three judges who were being tr-- uh, seeking Senate approval f- to become judges, and all three of those bitches, and when I say bitch, I mean someone who has a low character, I use it as an androgynous comment, refused to acknowledge that Biden had won the twenty twenty election, Viktor Orbán has greater character now than many of our Republican elected officials. If you do not concede elections, the very basis, the very foundation of democracy does not exist.

Kara Swisher 18:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:43 And a right-wing, some people would call fascist in Eastern Europe, had the decency and the character to concede-

Kara Swisher 18:51 Fair point

Scott Galloway 18:51 ... the election.

Kara Swisher 18:52 Yep, absolutely. I mean, he's a, you know... It'll be interesting to see what he does next. He'll probably become a right-wing figure. But it seems like right-wingery is sort of on the way out. This guy is a dressed-up version of a conservative, for sure. But at the same time, he was, as you said, backing Ukraine, was not a satellite of Russia. Let's hope he... You know, he certainly looks great. I know it's a... He, he seems young and vibrant. Orbán seems old and corrupt, essentially. And so it'll be interesting to see which way he goes, how he deals with T- well, Trump's... I think Trump is a past tense figure at this point for a lot of these leaders, whoever it happens to be. Um, but it's really is interesting, and you're right, this country looked... Like when I saw all those crowds, all those people, I was like, "Oh, this guy's absolute toast in the way people are handling it." And they just, they just were sick and tired of corruption and fascism. And this w- this is a country which has suffered at the hands of fascists and different difficult, uh, leaders for a long time. So what's our excuse? That's what I say. Um, anyway, let's take a quick break. When we come back, Eric Swalwell ends his campaign for governor of California. What a mess. [whooshing] [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from NetSuite. Every business is asking the same question: How do we make AI work for us? It can be a daunting task, but sitting on the sidelines is not an option because your competitors are already making their move. But with NetSuite by Oracle, you can put AI to work today. NetSuite is a top-rated AI cloud ERP trusted by over forty-three thousand businesses. It's a unified suite that brings your financials, inventory, commerce, HR, and CRM into a single source of truth. The connected data is what makes your AI smarter. It knows how to intelligently automate routine tasks, how to deliver actionable insights, and can help you cut costs and make fast AI-powered decisions with confidence, giving you total flexibility. From software and IT services to healthcare equipment manufacturing, financial services, and many other great American industries, NetSuite delivers a customized solution for your business. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get a free business guide, Demystifying AI at netsuite.com/pivot. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/pivot. Netsuite.com/pivot. [whooshing] Scott, we're back. Representative Eric Swalwell

Kara Swisher 21:08 of California says he is resigning from Congress and has suspended his campaign already for California governor amid multiple allegations of rape, sexual assault, and misconduct. In a post on X, Swalwell said he is, quote, "deeply sorry for mistakes in judgment I've made in my past," and said he would fight the, quote, "false allegations," unquote. The allegations triggered swift political fallout, with Swalwell losing nearly all of his endorsements within twenty-four hours. The governor's race remains crowded, with other leading Democrats being billionaire Tom Steyer and former representative Katie Porter. Just so you're clear, this was started online by someone named MsFrazzled, um, who was-- who had done a interview with Swalwell and then had gotten a lot of incoming about his behavior, which is, was very well known across the spectrum. I did not, but I, I, I think a lot of people within politics knew about him, the same way I think many people knew about Gonzales. Like, there's, there's a lot of m-men in politics that people know their behavior, and I think this was pretty well known, which is incredible that he, he walked into this, um, race with a bomb strapped to his chest. He had to have known, or maybe he doesn't think he did anything. That's what he seems to do. So any thoughts on this? You could often... You could possibly see Kamala Harris come back in. I don't know. I don't, I don't... What, what do you think about this? Steve Hilton was ahead, just so you know. What do you think is gonna happen here?

Scott Galloway 22:36 Well, there's two things, and that is its impacts, its impact on the governor's race, and then what this says about the dynamic of, of potential or accusations of misconduct and how we're supposed to evaluate that. So I'll go in that order. Uh, I think this probably is going to make Tom Steyer governor. I think that California is still a heavily Democratic state. I think if, if the Democratic... If the Democrats consolidate to one or two leaders and that person gets into the general after the jungle primary, whatever you call it, I think the Democrats gonna win. And I think Steyer has the money. I think the next shoe to drop, I think Speaker Pelosi was waiting till there was some-something resembling an emerging leader here. I think it's Tom Steyer. I think she will endorse him. I think he will be one of the-

Kara Swisher 23:20 Yeah, Ro Khanna already has. So is Jane Fonda, interestingly.

Scott Galloway 23:23 I think he will be one of the two top candidates. He has the money. The unions don't like him, but money is more important than unions, even in California. I think, I think with, with Swalwell dropping out and a consolidation across the Democrats, I think this is probably the moment that we'll look back on and say, "This is how Steyer became governor." Now-

Kara Swisher 23:41 Uh-huh

Scott Galloway 23:41 ... to the second issue, and we face this all the time on boards. When a senior-level person has sex with somebody, and then that person accuses them of harassment or conduct, sometimes they're bullshit cases and opportunistic. Other times, there's a power imbalance that the person takes advantage of. My view on this shit is the following:We- we're not here, and I hate the Democratic Party for having purity tests around people having sex. I think when, when Al Franken or whoever gets run outta, run out of dodge-

Kara Swisher 24:13 Yeah

Scott Galloway 24:13 ... such that Kristen Gillibrand can have a s-

Kara Swisher 24:14 I'm not sure this is comparable, but go ahead. Sure

Scott Galloway 24:15 ... can have a seven-minute run for presidency where people have extramarital affairs, that in my view, uh, you know, okay, be careful who you judge on this shit.

Kara Swisher 24:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:26 But if you are and this is true on boards, if you-- once you are above a certain level of power as a general, not a general, as a red line, you fuck anybody who works here, you're out. It creates too much risk. So for me, the question is i-if, if law enforcement needs to get involved and decide if there was a crime here, and sexual assault is obviously a very serious crime-

Kara Swisher 24:49 Needs to be investigated

Scott Galloway 24:50 ... then have it investigated. But before that even happens, if it's did you have sex with a staffer as an elected representative? If the answer is yes, then you are out. If you're the Secretary of Homeland Security and you're fucking your number two, then you are out. If you're the attorney general in Georgia investigating an important case against the president, and you are fucking your number two, then you are out. The staffers are there to fuck each other, not the elected representative who has power over them, 'cause all you're doing is injecting risk into the entire organization, and there is a power imbalance. So whether or not he's guilty of sexual assault, the crime, the legal authorities should investigate that, but he should be out before that-

Kara Swisher 25:36 Yeah

Scott Galloway 25:36 ... if he was engaging in sexual relationships with the staffers. It-- There needs to be a clear line here. There's too much of a power imbalance.

Kara Swisher 25:43 What, what was interesting is how many people knew about it, right? He's texted me to-- he's wanted to come on the podcast, and I wrote back, I'm like, "I might until there's two left, and then I'll think about who we're gonna..." You know, I, I think there's, there were so many people in this jungle. Primary-

Scott Galloway 25:57 Yeah, stars, teams with us trying to get on.

Kara Swisher 25:59 Yeah, exactly. They were all, every one of them, every, every candidate in primaries, whether it's Iowa or Texas or wherever, they're all trying to get on these things. But I was like, "Well, let's just wait till there's two," which is what I told him. Um, but I did, I did think I was surprised to find out, and by the way, kudos to the people online who actually handled it rather well. It was, it was until nobody, no credible journalist from a major media organization would look into it. Now, it was broken, it was broken online by this Ms. Frazzled, uh, who did, had done an interview with him and then had a lot of incoming. But i-it she covers education, like that's the thing. And, and I think a lot of the political reporters had some sense of this from what I can understand. Uh, but it was broken by The Chronicle and CNN, um, Pam Brown did a report on it. I-I was sort of flummoxed by, one, why would you run when this many things were-- you would be aware of things you did? And then, two, why nobody in media had started to look at it? Because same thing with Tony Gonzales too. Like a lot of the... And there's more than that in Congress that I, I don't think that you should be on a hunt for this stuff necessarily, but this was really well known now in hindsight. Like, I think it was kind of healthy for the Democratic Party to speak out, right? To like people to... And even if they were friends with him or had endorsed him, I thought that was relatively healthy response from the Democratic Party for lots of reasons, and there should be an investigation. That's exactly what every single party in this deserves and the public should expect. And that, that, that was the only part I was sort of like, really? It was... I mean, I had no... I, I, I was sur- I'm not surpri- I guess I'm not surprised anytime by anything, but I was amazed by how many people within these parties, both of them know this stuff pretty well. That always surprises me. I don't know about you.

Scott Galloway 27:54 Uh, look, I, I think we need... I mean, there's just need structural reform or this will continue to happen.

Kara Swisher 28:00 Mm-hmm. Right.

Scott Galloway 28:00 We need Citizens United to go away. We need gerrymandering to go away. We need to pay Representative Swalwell and the other representatives five to 10 times more than they're getting paid now, such that they can do their job and not have to compromise themselves and start trading stocks. I heard Ro Khanna, one of my heroes, is actually outperforming the S&P all of a sudden. W-we need structural reform, and part of that structural reform is very clear lines, and that is if you are a powerful senator or congressperson, the moment someone comes to work for you-

Kara Swisher 28:31 I would say any, not powerful. Any.

Scott Galloway 28:33 Any.

Kara Swisher 28:33 Any.

Scott Galloway 28:33 Hundred percent. Any, any person elected to federal office, it, it, it's awesome to be you. You're gonna go... You have the best rap at a bar. What do you do? Oh, I'm the, I'm the elected congressperson from the great state of California. Wow! I would really like to have sex with you. It, it... Wow! You, sir, we'll, we'll find a reservation for you. Sir, let us escort you to your, your plane and circumvent security. Sir, let us be... Let... Can you be our honored guest? Can you be the commencement speaker at your former high school? It is awesome to be an elected federal official. One of the few downsides is that anyone who works for you, that you have power over their livelihood, you cannot have sex with. Simple. Cut and dry. No story, no context dependent. If you decide you have feelings for each other, then one of you needs to resign and pursue the relationship because it creates way too much risk, distraction from the important work they do. And guess what? I, I'm sympathetic, and by the... I don't... I'm not one of these people that doesn't believe in intra-office romance. If you get a bunch of people in a close, intense environment, they're gonna start having sex. It's the senior level people that have power that don't get to do it. The young people, have at it. As long as it's consensual, as long as no one feels pressured, th-that's what young people are supposed to be doing.

Kara Swisher 30:01 Well, this case has more than that. This is not just that.

Scott Galloway 30:03 That's not this. I agree with you.

Kara Swisher 30:05 Right. So, I mean, that's an, that's, it's a, it's a problem for him.

Scott Galloway 30:08 Let's have some common sense laws-

Kara Swisher 30:11 Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:11 ... or common sense norms and standards.

Kara Swisher 30:14 You're right. All right. We're gonna move on.

Scott Galloway 30:15 When, when you have this kind of power imbalance, you are injecting risk and your fly is up and locked, you take it off campus. You wanna have extramarital affairs, you wanna have orgies, you wanna have sex with people the same sex as you while passing anti or homophobic laws.Fine. It's a, it's a lack of character, but you don't get expelled from Congress. You abuse your power dynamic and inject the entire office to risk, you're out.

Kara Swisher 30:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:42 Make it simpler for them. No gray area.

Kara Swisher 30:44 Yeah, I guess. I don't know. We'll see what happens here. It's not a great story. Anyway, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent

Kara Swisher 30:50 met with the country's top bank executives last week, along with Fed Chair Jerome Powell, warning them about Anthropic's new Mythos model. Bessent raised concerns about cybersecurity, making sure banks are aware of the risks, taking precautions. Anthropic itself has been sounding the alarm, saying Mythos is so powerful, uh, it's potentially dangerous. It's not been released to the public yet. Instead, they're keeping it to a small group of companies to test, to find vul-- it finds vulnerabilities in all manner of places. This Bessent meeting appears to be separate from the Pentagon's clash with Anthropic, which is still playing out in court. Um, y-you know, this is really a problem w-worthy as, as these, uh, as these models continue to evolve in terms of, uh, staying f-- too far ahead of the defense. The offense is much stronger than the defense. Um, and of course, Bessent, uh, is talking to banks about using it, but also at the same time using it to protect themselves. What a mess. What a mess. Another mess.

Scott Galloway 31:45 Yeah, I don't have a... Uh, I find that the worst thing to do right now is to be a cabinet member going on and trying to pr- trying to defend these policies. You know, I don't-

Kara Swisher 31:56 Yep.

Scott Galloway 31:56 I, I-

Kara Swisher 31:56 Yep. I think it is the government's interest to help companies figure out as these... See, one might start to regulate these things in terms of the way we do everything else, nuclear arms, et cetera, et cetera, development of, of important technologies, and if it's gonna be dangerous to companies and let everyone in the back door and take everybody's money, it seems, I don't... Bes- I mean, Bessent is doing the right thing here, but it's just ridiculous that they h- that the Pentagon is then warring with Anthropic, which came forward, which companies usually don't in this case. Often companies keep it to themselves until a disaster. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Sam Altman's home gets targeted in multiple attacks.

Scott Galloway 32:35 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Vanguard. To all the financial advisors out there, the ones whose job is to help their clients keep more of what they earn, Vanguard is here to help you out. Vanguard is slashing fees again, this time for more than fifty of its funds. That's on top of big fee cuts they already gave last year to investors in eighty-seven of their funds. In an increasingly high-priced world, Vanguard is staying true to excellence without expense. Not only do your clients keep more of what they invest, they get sophisticated active and index funds at industry-leading low cost, and a fixed income team obsessed with consistent outperformance. Low fees give Vanguard's skilled bond managers more freedom to maneuver as they pursue that goal. And low fees help you deliver greater value as an advisor. Top performance shouldn't come at a higher cost. Go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com/impact. That's vanguard.com/impact. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation distributor.

Kara Swisher 33:31 [whooshing] Scott, we're back with more news. Sam Altman's home was targeted twice over the weekend, once with a suspect throwing a

Kara Swisher 33:37 Molotov cocktail, and the second time with a car stopping and firing a gun at the residence. Lives in San Francisco. The subject in the first-- suspect in the first attack was later found at the OpenAI headquarters threatening to burn down the building. Probably has some mental problems. Uh, S- Altman responded to the first attack in a blog post saying he empathized with anti-technology sentiments, and clearly technology isn't always good for everyone. In the post, Sam, uh, Altman noted that the incident came a few days after an incendiary article was published about him in The New Yorker raising questions about his trustworthiness. He shouldn't blame the article. It was an excellent, uh, article by, uh, Ronan Farrow. That's not what caused it. Uh, but nearly a third of young adults say AI makes them angry. These are new polls. Um, you know, this is unfortunately where it leads, these... And, and to blame... Ugh, using the word incendiary was really unfortunate on Altman's behalf. Um, but there is, you know, this is... And I hate to blame someone for what's happening here because anyone that uses violence is-- should be widely derided, um, by everybody. But it still is, this is how it goes. I used to say this to them, "If you don't, if you don't do something about this, you're gonna have to armor plate your Teslas," unfortunately, because people start to get really, uh, uh, pro-violent is what-- where it o-often leads to. Your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 34:53 I just think there, the, I, I mean, speaking of red lines here, we, we just can't, we can't in any way justify... We have to move-

Kara Swisher 35:01 No

Scott Galloway 35:01 ... swiftly against any violence against any citizen. And I don't... I'm not a fan of Sam Altman. I think Big Tech has done tremendous damage, and these CEOs have done tremendous damage to the United States and most importantly to our youth, ripping at the fabric of America. We have to have zero tolerance for violence against them in any fashion. And, um, you know, I don't like Sam Altman. I, I think he's... I, I-- We were talking about this off mic earlier when you were on my podcast. I think there are a few people who have seen such a one-eighty in their brand in such a short shide- side-- uh, span of time. Ef-effectively, the brand march of tech executives is they're very likable, they're very charming. We need to do better. She should run for president. Oh, I love her book, Lean In. And then over time, we find out that they make a bunch of incremental decisions that are bad for America such that they can get richer and richer, and eventually they turn into a Bond villain. That march is usually about a seven to ten-year march. For Sam Altman, it was eighteen months.

Kara Swisher 35:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:59 Remember Sam was the more thoughtful guy with the hushed tones like-

Kara Swisher 36:02 Yeah

Scott Galloway 36:03 ... "There are really, really-- We are very concerned [chuckling] about some of the implications of AI, and we need..."

Kara Swisher 36:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 36:09 "Oh, Senator, I don't, I don't own any equity."

Kara Swisher 36:11 That's Dario now. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 36:12 "I don't own any equity in-

Kara Swisher 36:14 Yeah

Scott Galloway 36:14 ... in OpenAI." Oh, what a guy, this nice young gay man in T-shirts who seems to be the caring tech CEO. Okay, uh, I just wanna go on record as saying this guy's gonna... This guy will say a-- say or do anything to make more money. That's why they go into this business. There are easier ways to find self-satisfaction than running a tech company right now. You're there for the money. You get tremendous pressure and obligation to represent your shareholders. You wanna win. It is a thunderdome. It is easy to understand why they get there. The real failure is there's abso-fucking-lutely no regulation on these individuals. And soWhen people start coming at them it, it-- Like, I don't like it when people start yelling insults verbally at J.D. Vance. I, I think there has to be a level of civility and safety such that we work things out at a government level and I know there's a lot of people who disagree with my views on Israel. People don't assault me verbally on the street. I, I feel like I'm poking the bear here. I think it's important. I saw Senator John Thune in Nantucket. I went up to him and I thanked him for his service. I don't agree... I disagree with almost everything he does, and I immediately disclosed I'm a Democrat, but I said we're both Americans. I, we, one of the hallmarks of a progressive society that we all wanna live in is we recognize we're all Americans, and as long as we're operating with the con- within the confines of the law, which quite frankly Sam Altman is, and that's the problem, is there aren't any laws.

Kara Swisher 37:41 Mm-hmm. Agreed.

Scott Galloway 37:42 He deserves to live-

Kara Swisher 37:44 He does

Scott Galloway 37:44 ...in peace and safety.

Kara Swisher 37:46 Yeah. Let me say, he shouldn't have blamed the article for it. This was a rarely well-reported article. It did not... Suddenly people don't hate Sam Altman because of this article. They have these feelings, and unstable people act on them because of a perceived, uh, rapaciousness by tech companies. And so-

Scott Galloway 38:01 He's probably a mentally ill young man-

Kara Swisher 38:03 That's correct. That's right

Scott Galloway 38:04 ...who read about Sam Altman-

Kara Swisher 38:06 Yeah

Scott Galloway 38:06 ...uh, you know, the, the guy who killed John L- Crazy people are drawn... They, they believe that in a, in a historic act of violence, it will restore or give them social capital. That's why they do it. They're-- I, I don't know anything about this individual, but there's a very good chance it's someone who's isolated and is hoping to gain social capital through what they see as a heroic act of violence. And the FBI and our security apparatus need, n-need to ensure that, that famous people can walk the streets and have some semblance. My old home, I bought a home in San Francisco, and I bought it for seven hundred and twenty thousand dollars, and two years later I wanted to move to New York and I sold it for nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars and thought I was a fucking real estate genius. That home ended up being next to the home where ultimately, it's no longer there now, so you don't need to look up the address, but it ended up being the home next to where Mark Zuckerberg lived in San Francisco in the neighborhood you live in.

Kara Swisher 39:05 Oh, you're in my neighborhood. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 39:06 And now my home-

Kara Swisher 39:08 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 39:08 ...is where his security detail lived.

Kara Swisher 39:11 Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's true.

Scott Galloway 39:11 Because he had to-- They basically started blocking off the block. So after that election in the Netherlands, and I love this, the prime minister stepped down and then got on his bike and rode away. [chuckles] I mean, I'm like, they, they win. They win. [laughs] He doesn't need the beast. He, he doesn't need it. He doesn't need his kids escorted to school.

Kara Swisher 39:33 I have been unfortunately seeing the, the need for it, and they do need it. It's really crazy. But one of the things was I was like, "We gotta deal with what's happening here. You're gonna have crazy people attracted to you. It's gonna happen because it's inevitable." And with just the enormous wealth, the same thing. It's really creates real problems, but you should not-- Whoever did these things or considering it, we, you are horrible people to... That's how you, you deal with problems. There's lots of ways to deal with problems, and even if you feel desperate, you should seek help.

Scott Galloway 40:03 The anger needs to be funneled towards the ballot booth.

Kara Swisher 40:07 That's right. That's right.

Scott Galloway 40:08 And that is, I need people who will-

Kara Swisher 40:10 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 40:10 ...keep these people in check. I need people that when Jeff Bezos or, or Elon Musk peace out to Florida and Texas, that there are-

Kara Swisher 40:20 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 40:20 ...elected representatives who will figure out a way to tax the earnings they accreted from the great states-

Kara Swisher 40:24 Yep. Agreed

Scott Galloway 40:24 ...of Washington-

Kara Swisher 40:26 Let's tax them

Scott Galloway 40:26 ...and from California. I need people who will ensure that social media is gated. There is no reason people under the age of sixteen... But be clear, folks, if you're waiting on the better angels of these tech executives-

Kara Swisher 40:37 Mm-mm. They're not

Scott Galloway 40:38 ...to show up, don't hold your breath.

Kara Swisher 40:39 They're not.

Scott Galloway 40:39 And then when they take advantage of the system and accrete massive wealth, uh, that is not a cause for violence.

Kara Swisher 40:45 It-- We do have to acknowledge there is ang- huge an- I get yelled at for not stopping Elon Musk before, and I, I, I get, like, more than yelled at, like, threatened. So I don't know what to say. It's not the way to handle these things. Anyway,

Kara Swisher 40:58 uh, lastly, a quick grab bag of other topics I'd like to hit. Over a thousand Hollywood heavyweights have released a letter opposing Paramount's acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery, saying the deal would harm the industry. Paramount, uh, responded to the letter by saying, "We hear and understand the concerns of some in our creative community have raised and respect the commitment to protecting and expanding creativity. This transaction brings together, um, uniquely brings together complementary strengths to create a company that can greenlight more projects, back bold ideas, support talent across multiple stages of their careers, and bring stories to audiences of truly global scale while strengthening competition by ensuring multiple scale players in investing and creative talent." Uh, he-- They also said they're gonna, they ha- they continue their commitment to increasing output to a minimum of thirty high-quality feature films with full theatrical releases, continuing to license content and brands, um, and he, th-they said, "We understand the concerns. We're gonna do what we say." Scott and I do not believe them, but they, they're reestablishing their commitment to it. Reaction, where's this going? Also, Europe is looking like it's gonna possibly block part of it. Slow going. They'll eventually get it through, and-

Scott Galloway 42:04 In what is the greatest movie of all time-

Kara Swisher 42:06 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 42:06 ...Obi-Wan Jedi, Obi-Wan Kenobi feels a disturbance in the force 'cause the planet of Alderaan is killed by a space laser and millions of people screamed. If this deal goes through, you're gonna hear millions of people in the creative community scream because this is gonna be the most destructive, uh, force of human capital in the creative community we've ever seen. There is no way they can justify this price if they don't implement the AI that they believe will give them the efficiencies they need to justify this price. So I've been saying this for three months.

Kara Swisher 42:37 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 42:37 Why the f- where the fuck are the unions? So if it-

Kara Swisher 42:40 This should have gone the way they were gonna do it, which was spin off CNN and spin off the studios and then maybe do acquisitions of pieces of it that made economic sense. This is

Scott Galloway 42:51 They're too fucking late

Kara Swisher 42:53 They're too fucking late

Scott Galloway 42:53 This letter should have come out. They should have said-

Kara Swisher 42:56 Yep. Yep

Scott Galloway 42:56 ... to Ellison and, and also the Gulf States and the people financing this deal, "The day this goes through, you are not gonna get a single piece of content made. This is unworkable for us."

Kara Swisher 43:09 Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And next one, Elon Musk gave ten million dollars to two major Republican super PACs at the end of last year according to campaign finance disclosure. Then the FTC investigated ad firms that had steered clear of Twitter, as they are allowed to do, and those firms just settled to make it all go away. I just... This is rid- he's been using the FCC, the FTC in all manner of ways, including Marco Rubio around, uh, the Center for Countering Digital Hate in order to get his beasts one that he can't win in court. Uh, and the FTC does this, and these firms finally just settled, even though it's within their right not to, not to advertise on a, at a Nazi porn bar. Quick thoughts?

Scott Galloway 43:48 It just goes back to the same thing. That's two things. You need, you need structural reform. He's allowed to do this. Until we get rid of Citizens United, billionaires are gonna continue to control more and more. Billionaires and corporations are gonna continue to, to leak, or we're gonna continue to leak capital from labor and the middle class and consumers to billionaires and corporations because of their ability to strategically weaponize government. Three hundred people now are responsible for a fifth of all PAC spending, and guess what? They can deploy it wherever they need it strategically. The best ROI in history. I've said this personally. I give a little bit of money to politicians. I'm shocked. I don't mind that they're whores. What shock me is what cheap whores they are.

Kara Swisher 44:26 Cheap whores.

Scott Galloway 44:27 When I give-

Kara Swisher 44:27 Well, you don't expect the FTC and the FCC to jump this high.

Scott Galloway 44:29 No, I don't ask for anything. But my point is-

Kara Swisher 44:31 Right. But I'm saying usually those agencies didn't do this, and now they absolutely-

Scott Galloway 44:35 Oh, it's gone... Uh, look, this has been going on for a while. These guys are more brazen about it and, quite frankly, more efficient about it. There needs to be an absolute restriction. U- until Citizens United [laughs] is overturned, we're gonna have more and more of this. Also, until th-this, this straight corruption, it used to be more opaque, but y- I'm, I'm-- I've said, if I had someone in prison who I wanted out-

Kara Swisher 45:01 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 45:01 ... I think for between one and three million dollars through a third party, I could get them out within twenty-four months.

Kara Swisher 45:06 Yeah. The head of the FTC and the head of the FCC really are, are, are creatures of these, of, of Elon Musk, essentially, and others. Um, and a federal judge has dismissed President Trump's, he doesn't always win, ten billion dollar lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal, which claimed the paper defamed Trump with a story saying he had sent a birthday card to Jeffrey Epstein. Uh, the courts keep pushing back at Trump on all... You know, in this case, the Journal fought, as opposed to CBS and settled or, or other, other ABC, CBS settled. So, uh, looks like the Journal has the real victory here. Um, you know, I think good thing. I mean, what a stupid-- He does all these stupid nuisance cases and loses them.

Scott Galloway 45:45 We've been really weak on government corruption. The one, the silver lining here, the thing that's holding is First Amendment. It does feel like both Trump appointees and appointees before Trump are saying, "Free s- free speech is paramount, and we're, yeah, we're gonna throw this out." The problem is, is enough suits creates a chill. I was talking to a producer of a, of a very popular show, and they said, "We're checking everything now, double, triple checking, and occasionally when something's on the margin, we don't print it 'cause we're, we're freaked out." So, uh, uh, but it does appear when they, these things do go to court, they are universally swatted away.

Kara Swisher 46:21 Sw-swatted away. Absolutely. Well, we'll see where that goes. He doesn't have much time. Trump does not have much time. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Kara Swisher 46:31 [swishing] Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. Would you like to go first? Do you want me to-

Scott Galloway 46:34 I'll go first. So my win-

Kara Swisher 46:36 Okay

Scott Galloway 46:36 ... is Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever.

Kara Swisher 46:38 [laughs]

Scott Galloway 46:38 I was pleasantly surprised. I really-

Kara Swisher 46:40 You were shocked. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 46:41 I, I knew you would do a good job, but I was-

Kara Swisher 46:43 Yeah

Scott Galloway 46:43 ... really surprised, quite frankly, at the production values. It feels cinematic. The colors, the cinematography, it was... It felt very rich, for lack of a better word. It felt like an... You know what it felt like? I thought that could have easily been an original scripted series on Apple TV. It felt very-

Kara Swisher 47:00 Like Beauty

Scott Galloway 47:01 ... for lack of a better, it just felt very rich. So congratulations. I, I think-

Kara Swisher 47:04 Thank you

Scott Galloway 47:04 ... it's nice for you. I know you-

Kara Swisher 47:05 Thank you, sweetie

Scott Galloway 47:05 ... spent a lot of time on it.

Kara Swisher 47:06 You're a good egg.

Scott Galloway 47:07 And I really... I've only seen the first episode, but I really enjoyed it. Um-

Kara Swisher 47:10 Yeah

Scott Galloway 47:11 ... and it airs Saturday night at ten? When does it air?

Kara Swisher 47:13 Nine. Nine.

Scott Galloway 47:14 Saturday night at nine.

Kara Swisher 47:15 Unless J.D. Vance does. I remember. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 47:15 Unless J.D. Vance. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 47:17 Scott caught me every week.

Scott Galloway 47:19 God, I love that. That made me so happy.

Kara Swisher 47:20 [laughs] I know it did. Okay.

Scott Galloway 47:20 I'm like, oh my God, I turned it on. I turned it on 'cause I want, I want you to have good numbers, and, [laughs] and I turned on both TVs. I don't know if they count them twice. And then [laughs] I see J.D. Vance. I'm like, this has to be... Then I'm like, I'd love to see Kara's face when she saw J.D. Vance at her-

Kara Swisher 47:36 I know

Scott Galloway 47:36 ... in her hour slot.

Kara Swisher 47:37 We laughed. You know, we had an extra cup. We had a party. We were having a party in DC. Tammy had it, ran it. Um, and we had a copy of the show, so we were able to show it to people. But first we're like, "Oh, fuck." And it just... The thing is, CNN had a picture of a door. Did you see that? [laughs] For an hour, there was the, the door that J.D. Vance was behind. And so-

Scott Galloway 47:56 Oh, yeah

Kara Swisher 47:56 ... it was just the door. [laughs] I was just like-

Scott Galloway 47:58 Where he came out and said, "We've got nothing accomplished."

Kara Swisher 48:01 Fuck you.

Scott Galloway 48:01 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 48:01 I know. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:02 Yeah. No, so that-

Kara Swisher 48:03 All right

Scott Galloway 48:03 ... that's my-

Kara Swisher 48:04 Okay. Thank you, sweetie.

Scott Galloway 48:04 That's my win.

Kara Swisher 48:05 That was really nice.

Scott Galloway 48:06 M-my fail, uh, it's not even a, it's not even a fail. I have two wins. Like, uh, eh, the election in, in Hungary is so huge and so wonderful on a lot of levels, but my win is Viktor Orbán. I, I... If a fascist who ruled for sixteen years can concede an election, so can we. So can we. And think about what we have done in this country. If you had a team, a basketball team, and a head coach, and they lost sixty-eight to seventy-two, and then the head coach refused to shake the hand, told his team, "W-we won the game," told the media, "We won the game," refused to show up for the, the medal ceremony or whatever it was, would you decide to make that guy the head of the league?I- if we can't have the peaceful transfer of power, none of this other shit matters and Viktor Orbán, who I'm not a fan of-

Kara Swisher 49:04 Yeah

Scott Galloway 49:04 ... who I am not a fan of-

Kara Swisher 49:06 Yeah

Scott Galloway 49:06 ... understood, understood. He said his, his-

Kara Swisher 49:10 For now. He's only 62, so okay.

Scott Galloway 49:13 But he said, Orbán said he congrat- he called to congratulate Magyar-

Kara Swisher 49:19 Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 49:19 ... is that his name?

Kara Swisher 49:19 Mm-hmm, Magyar.

Scott Galloway 49:20 And he wrote, Orban said, "The responsibility and possibility of governing was not given to us." I mean, a simple line, a simple line. This guy showed more fidelity to democracy than not only our corrupt president, but so many of the people who wanna be a judge are willing to do right now. So it's a strange win, but my win goes to Viktor Orbán for conceding an election. I am so thrilled for the Hungarian people. It is an inspiration the way they have, and it also, quite frankly, it bodes really well for us-

Kara Swisher 50:02 Yep

Scott Galloway 50:02 ... because we are a lot more connected-

Kara Swisher 50:04 That's right

Scott Galloway 50:04 ... than people believe.

Kara Swisher 50:05 I know. You have to. Let's see, JD, when you lose the presidency, you better act like that. Anyway, uh, I have a fail. I usually like when women s- say their peace, but I thought two women this week weren't so great. Melania Trump made a rare speech to talk about-

Scott Galloway 50:20 God, that was weird

Kara Swisher 50:21 ... June five.

Scott Galloway 50:22 We can leave it at that. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 50:22 It had so much what the fuckity fuck. It was, what the hell? Why is she talking about this? There might-- We thought there was a story, and then there... It's just because she's mad about it. She doesn't-- She's like, "I was not a paid escort or sex trafficked," you know, and it's like, well, like, I think she wants to make it clear she w- isn't a prostitute. That's w- or a sex, sex trafficking.

Scott Galloway 50:43 Aren't we all prostitutes at some point?

Kara Swisher 50:45 I know. I was like-

Scott Galloway 50:46 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 50:46 ... well, you still, you... Like, okay, so you went through a marriage broker kind of thing. Like, she didn't do that, but, you know, I think she wants to mo- no, doesn't wanna... I don't know what she was doing. I thought, what in the actual fuck is happening here? And, uh, you know, they say Trump didn't know, but there's such like... I was like, "What is happening, and why is Epstein back?"

Scott Galloway 51:05 I didn't get any of that.

Kara Swisher 51:05 Like, oh, good, let's talk about Epstein. And then I think she, like, crapped on those survi- the real survivors who really did suffer, because she, you know, just to get her p- little piece out there, and what a selfish, uh, person she was. Well, she is. What am I talking about? And then this strange profile of Lauren Sanchez in The New York Times, which Katie Couric had the best reaction, is, "Were you forced to do this assignment?" to the writer, Amy Chozick. I, I didn't know why she w- she was telling everyone how happy she is, which is great, but I don't know what it was there for. There was nothing to hang it on. I guess the Met Gala? I'm not sure, but it was, like, so tone deaf. Like, "I'm really happy in, in our two hundred and thirty million dollar house in Florida. We talk, do gratitude to each other every morning." Just more of this sort of performative romance with Bezos. It's so icky. I just find it-- I just didn't understand it.

Scott Galloway 51:54 Kara, do you remember that line from Broadcast News? It's, it's one of the greatest lines in movie history, where William Hurt says to Albert Brooks, "What happens when your real life exceeds your wildest dreams?" And Albert Brooks-

Kara Swisher 52:07 Yep

Scott Galloway 52:07 ... turns and says, "Keep it to yourself."

Kara Swisher 52:09 Keep it to yourself. That's what I thought.

Scott Galloway 52:10 And my dad, uh, I've been thinking, you know, I, I love the statement, and I use it as, uh, one of the definitions of masculinity. Are you optimizing for attention or service?

Kara Swisher 52:20 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 52:21 And Lauren Sanchez, from everything I've heard, is a really nice woman. People who know her say wonderful things about her. You have an amazing life. Keep it to your fucking self. Talking about your amazing life and virtue signaling, I-- it's like, I have a buddy who is so successful, such a good friend, such a good citizen, and he's a fucking disaster when it comes to his relationships, and I said to him, I said, "Don't you have any really good friends that can tell you what they think of what you're doing? Like, who saves you from yourself?"

Kara Swisher 52:54 Nobody here. She's got the money.

Scott Galloway 52:55 And if she, um, w- and this is the same thing with Lauren. It's like, don't you have any friends to say to you, "Go, girl."

Kara Swisher 53:02 No.

Scott Galloway 53:02 "Have an amazing life. Do good things with your money. Be-- take care of your parents, take care of your community, give money away. You don't need articles in The New York Times talking about what a spiritual, wonderful person you are and how wonderful your relationship is. There's no w- it's just gonna make you look like an asshole." Like, don't e- that's my question, Kara. Don't these people have friends?

Kara Swisher 53:22 Uh, especially as the ex-wife of Jeff Bezos just gave seventy million dollars to Meals on Wheels and never said a word about herself. I mean-

Scott Galloway 53:29 About the mugs they have where honk or-

Kara Swisher 53:32 Honk. Honk. I mean...

Scott Galloway 53:35 [laughs] It's... She needs friends.

Kara Swisher 53:37 I-- Well, she has friends. She has the wrong friends. Lauren, call us up. We'll help you. We'll bring you back down to earth, but I don't think she cares. I think she, she could do so much good, and instead she's... I just don't know.

Scott Galloway 53:48 It's something I s- I struggle with. My dad told me, just b- I, I started to get some success before he passed away, and the last thing he said to me that really stuck with me-

Kara Swisher 53:57 Yeah

Scott Galloway 53:57 ... was he said, "The key to happiness in America is to be rich and anonymous." And he said to me, he said, he said, "Son, I'm worried," uh, and he goes, "I'm really happy that you've achieved your s- the former. I'm worried about the latter."

Kara Swisher 54:11 Oh, smart thinking, your dad.

Scott Galloway 54:12 He goes, "You don't appreciate the value of anonymity."

Kara Swisher 54:15 Well, too bad. Too late. Um, but I-- if you ever do an interview about us cuddling and doing gratitude-

Scott Galloway 54:21 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 54:21 ... I'll fucking kill you.

Scott Galloway 54:21 I gave her a mug.

Kara Swisher 54:23 [laughs] I gave-- I haven't given you a mug.

Scott Galloway 54:24 I gave her a mug that said, that said, "You look like Rachel Maddow's accountant."

Kara Swisher 54:28 [laughs] I gave you a mug that says it.

Scott Galloway 54:30 No, Rachel Maddow's mechanic. That's, that's your fashion sense.

Kara Swisher 54:33 I gave you a see you next Tuesday mug.

Scott Galloway 54:35 Oh, my God.

Kara Swisher 54:35 Um, uh-

Scott Galloway 54:36 Aren't we a-

Kara Swisher 54:36 My win on the other hand-

Scott Galloway 54:37 Aren't we adorable?

Kara Swisher 54:38 I know, we're adorable.

Scott Galloway 54:39 Aren't we adorbs?

Kara Swisher 54:40 Um, adorbs. Um, uh, my win is another outspoken woman, Hacks, is kept final season. I saw the first episode. So good. Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder, the whole frigging cast. It's about a woman who talks out loud and is so wonderful. I just love it, love it, love it, and I just, I recommend everybody watch this last season. The, the whole team there is spectacular. There's not-- They, and they all shareIn the wonderfulness, and I have to say it's very sweet, it's about a family. It's about... Anyway, Jean Smart is really a woman I'd like to have keep talking. And by the way, her speech in last season was so prescient about companies trying to quiet, uh, uh, uh, performers and comedians and stuff like that. So I thought that was amazing. So please watch it. It's worth it. It's on HBO Max. Um, anyway.

Scott Galloway 55:26 My favorite-- One of my favorite lines, "They're gonna name a street after you. It'll probably be a dead end with an abortion clinic on it." [laughing]

Kara Swisher 55:33 [laughing] Just beautiful writing. Um, anyway, those, those are the kind of things I, I think you should pay attention 'cause it'll make you laugh out loud. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. And elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on On, I talked, uh, more about [laughs] my CNN series, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever, on the topic of longevity. I talked to a panel of experts, including journalist Katie Couric. She talked about why people seem more inclined to trust dubious wellness claims than doctors. Obviously, Katie was really well known for being one of the first people to call attention to colon cancer. She had a-- Her husband died of this, and she had a colonoscopy on, on camera. Speaking of power broadcast news back then, it was really important to bringing down, uh, cancer rates. Really amazing things she did and continues to do. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 56:20 People want answers, and honestly, they, they often don't like the answers that they get. You know, they wanna believe. They, you know, my joints hurt. I wanna believe that collagen is gonna make me less achy when I get up in the morning. I wanna believe that I'm gonna be more flexible with collagen, you know? And so I think that, that, that people, you know, are grasping for ways to feel better, and I think there is a lot of suffering out there.

Kara Swisher 56:51 Really smart, uh, voice on all this. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. [outro music]