PivotPope Leo Issues AI Warning to Silicon Valley and Beyond | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 14,334 words- 0:00 – 0:32
Intro
- SGScott Galloway
Here's a technology that is potentially more dangerous than nuclear weapons. We didn't let Oppenheimer start a company and start selling bombs to China.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs] That's a good comparison. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Sc- [laughs] Who am I? I'm Scott Galloway. Sorry, I'm jet lagged is what I am.
- KSKara Swisher
So, um, uh, first off, I have to ask you, by the way, and you're doing a lot of stuff, but did you watch the Enhanced Games last
- 0:32 – 3:50
Enhanced Games
- KSKara Swisher
weekend?
- SGScott Galloway
I didn't, although I gotta be honest, I'm sort of here for it. I mean, I, I kinda had this idea to just take no holds barred and let freak shows show up. Uh, people are doing this to themselves anyways, but I did not, I did not watch it, although it was the-
- KSKara Swisher
You know what? Let me just say. Let me-
- SGScott Galloway
Go ahead
- KSKara Swisher
... for people who don't know, the Enhanced Games is a new sports event that allows athletes on performance-enhancing drugs and encourages them to try to break world records. Events included swimming, track and field, weightlifting, and strongmen. The experiment calls itself a global movement that unites humanity. Of course, it's a publicly traded company. Investors include Donald Trump and Junior and Peter Thiel. There's also a German executive I've met many times who's really into it. Um, there were no things broken except by someone who was wearing an, uh, the swimsuit that was barred, this special swimsuit. I don't know. The stock has gone down. I'm curious, if, if there was a fight where both of us were enhanced, who do you think would win, you or I?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, you know the answer there.
- KSKara Swisher
Me.
- SGScott Galloway
I-- Yeah, 100%. I've never been in a fight. Yeah, I'm not-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... I'm not a violent person.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
If someone hit me, I wouldn't know what to do. I have just-
- KSKara Swisher
You've never been in a fight? Wow.
- SGScott Galloway
Never been in a fight in my life, no.
- KSKara Swisher
Neither have I, I think. Let me think. That might not be true. No, I haven't. No, I haven't.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
No. Never have.
- SGScott Galloway
And I, you know, I was beaten up and abused, ex-wife, but, um, no, I was never, never been in a, never been in a fight. I think that I talk a lot about this, that [clears throat] I think that one of the cores to, I, I never miss a chance to, to virtue signal and preach, but I think one of the cores, core principles of, for men as they get older is just, quite frankly, is emotional regulation. You know, are you willing to sit in discomfort, and, uh, do you have control over your, your physical and mental well-being?
- KSKara Swisher
Well, it's an impulse to punch, right? It's an impulse to punch. And men have it much more... I have-- Well, let me think. Saul's probably the most aggressive of my sons.
- SGScott Galloway
So there's no arguing that men are more violent, but that doesn't mean women don't engage in violence. Domestic violence rates in LGBTQ couples, um, is about 25%, according to the National Institute for Health, and according to the CDC, anywhere from 17% to 40% of men are victims of intimate partner violence, depending, depending on the research methodology. There's discrepancy between whether it was a phone survey or a web survey. And then furthermore, there's only about three shelters. There's only three, three shelters across the entire US devoted to male domestic violence. Um, there's still a lot of shame, and there's a view that it might be underreported.
- KSKara Swisher
Mostly women suffer from this problem, Scott.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, but it's true. There's a, there's, there's an assumption, uh, the-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I get it. Most violence is committed by men in general. In general. In general, it's murders, blah, blah, everything. Every statistic is largely men. I-- It's not really-- It's just I, I, I do think it's a function of gender. I do think it's a function of, uh, impulse control and everything else, but I'm no scientist.
- SGScott Galloway
It's, it's testosterone and cultural norms and-
- KSKara Swisher
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep
- SGScott Galloway
... all sorts of stuff
- KSKara Swisher
And this manliness, this man... There was a really great cover of The Atlantic recently about the sort of the man-hating groups, and they're, they're always b- they're always like, "They're back." I'm like, "They're always there in some weird way." Um, speaking of man, men, um, there's, uh, construction crews are building the UFC
- 3:50 – 7:07
White House UFC Event
- KSKara Swisher
fighting cage on the South Lawn of the White House in preparation for the night of mixed martial arts celebrating the 250th anniversary of the US independence. Over 4,000 spectators plan to watch from inside the arena. Kinda looks like a roller coaster. And, uh, there's all this complaining by Joe Rogan and others about gnats and bugs and outside, and a lot of-- Some of the champions aren't coming because it's, it, it, they don't usually do it outside. Um, and it, it creates a... If, if you're going for world, you know, these, these are actual competitors. If you're going for titles, it's not, it's not a good thing to fight outside, apparently. Um, weigh-ins will be held at the Lincoln Memorial, which is, I don't know what to say about that, but okay, fine. Fine, fine. I, I, I just don't know what to say. I, I... It, it looks, it's ridic- It's, you know, it's, it feels clownish, but whatever. He's the president. I don't, I don't know what to say. I, I'm not gonna get overly angry about it, but it seems ridiculous, but I don't know how you feel.
- SGScott Galloway
I was invited. I said no. I don't, I don't enjoy that stuff, and I don't need to be, you know... I, I think it's disingenuous for me to show up and break bread or, or party with someone who I'm constantly critical of. Uh, it, the event itself is brilliant.
- KSKara Swisher
Who do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, gosh. There, there's just an entire generation of, of young men and, and quite frankly, a lot of women, their mothers and their sisters, who in America, uh, and this will trigger some people, still vote for who they perceive will be most beneficial for their husbands and their sons. And young men are doing really, really poorly. And, uh, if you think about government, government in the United States, largely speaking, has been feminized, if you look at the events. The events are basically like, you know, like the queen was merchandising and throwing them, for government events are very, uh, feminine, for lack of a better word.
- KSKara Swisher
Wait a minute. Come on, Scott. Today, you're very anti-woman today. I'm not sure why. What do you mean-
- SGScott Galloway
I'm not being anti-woman
- KSKara Swisher
... they're feminine?
- SGScott Galloway
I don't think feminine's a bad thing. I'm just calling it as it is.
- KSKara Swisher
I understand, but what do you mean government things are feminine? Like what?
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, go to anything at the White House. It feels like, it feels like-
- KSKara Swisher
Feminine?
- SGScott Galloway
... it's been designed... Oh, 100%.
- KSKara Swisher
All right.
- SGScott Galloway
They're very, they're very proper, gentle. They're very feminine. And by the way, that-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, men can be-
- SGScott Galloway
... that is a wonderful thing
- KSKara Swisher
... proper and gentle. I don't, I don't think that men can't be proper.
- SGScott Galloway
Yes, men can demonstrate wonderful feminine attributes.
- KSKara Swisher
You mean like medal giving is, is a feminine activity or?
- SGScott Galloway
I wouldn't describe medal giving, but the, the events-
- KSKara Swisher
There's a lot of medal giving at the White House
- SGScott Galloway
... government events and ceremonies tend to be very what people would considerI think somewhat more, um... Well, they're not a UFC fight. They're not a competition. They're not-
- KSKara Swisher
No, but a UFC fight is way down the list
- SGScott Galloway
Even they're not-- Even, like, comedy, the White House, the White House Dinner comes the closest to sort of something stepping out of what is seen as overly planned, nurturing, appropriate. Yeah, I think the events are very kind of very feminine. And what is, what are these guys doing? They're throwing a UFC fight, and it's kind of-- I, I, I-- You're gonna have, they're gonna have huge viewership. It says to Trump, uh, reinfor- reaffirms his, his view of one of the reasons he won the election, and that is, like, "I'm a man's man. I see men. I appreciate," quote, for lack of a better term, "masculinity." Unfortunately, it's a fucked up, weird-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, it is. Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... reformative, dominant form of masculinity, but it's a brilliant marketing strategy.
- KSKara Swisher
See-
- SGScott Galloway
It's smart
- KSKara Swisher
... I, I'm not s-- I, I don't, I think it sometimes works. Like, let me give an example.
- 7:07 – 11:14
The “Ugly” Campaign Against James Talarico
- KSKara Swisher
This attempt to turn James Talarico, like, the, uh, Stephen Miller, who is literally the most weak, weak-looking person you've ever seen, um, is, uh, call- You know, he and others are calling-- 'cause they're terrified of Talarico, so they're pulling out the anti-trans stuff immediately, saying the first trans senator. He doesn't know how to eat barbecue. Is that a To- Ted Cruz, another, like, someone I could-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, soft, weak
- KSKara Swisher
... easily beat in an, um, in a fight. The tofu barbecue, uh, uh, the idea of soy boy. I, I mean, I-- This is not manly in any way. This is, like, this... I don't, and I don't think it works as much anymore with people. Um, it's do- it's deeply insulting. It, it might work in Texas. I hate to say it. I think they, the Talarico people should take this very seriously because Kamala Harris didn't with the trans stuff that worked really well in the election, and it might work in Texas. But they're trying to, you know, paint him as gay. I think that's what they're... Where's the girlfriend?
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm. I think that's what they're into, man.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, trans. Is she, he trans? He's a soy boy. You know, this is all... Like, and when I think about it, it's so grotesque because I'm like, "These are all men over 50 or whatever." I don't-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... think-- I mean, Stephen Miller looks over 50, even though he's younger. Um, but th-this is this, like, name-calling, bullying bullshit that is not part of being a man, any man I know that I think are decent men. It's fine if people wanna do this. I, when I was a kid, I went to fights with my grandfather and went to wrestling matches. He was a promoter, um, and he loved it. Um, so I see the, the, the entertainment and everything else in it. But the, the, the, the, the, the soy boy trans thing that they're pushing on Talarico is so, so ugly and toxic, and unfortunately, it does work, uh, at some point. I don't know if you think it'll work in Texas, but it might. It certainly could.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I think, I think there's a, a fairly large distinction between a sanctioned sport where it's a lot of men in top physical shape. Um, I don't like it. I don't enjoy watching it. But I, I, I think that that is a legitimate sport. It's a huge sport. It's, I think, arguably one of the most successful sports of the last several decades. It's a well-run sport, um, creates a lot of economic value for many of the fighters. So I, you know, I, I think you can... I think in a bipartisan way, you can say that the UFC serves a purpose and is successful. The, the, the ugliness around Talarico is not only that, one, it's not true, but two, to assume that levying an accusation that someone is gay or trans is supposed to be negative. But trans young people are people that if you call someone that, your opponent doesn't call you something unless they're trying to say to the world, "That's a negative."
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Absolutely. No, no, no.
- SGScott Galloway
And-
- KSKara Swisher
100%
- SGScott Galloway
... and, uh, I, I hope at some point people regurgitate on things like that and say, quite frankly, it's, you know, if someone... We used to call, in college, you used to call people fags.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Yep, dykes and fags. Yep, I got it.
- SGScott Galloway
To be gay is to be bad. It's an insult. And at some point, some people, someone says, "Uh, yeah, and?" or, "What?" It's like, uh, uh, people onl- online call me a Zionist, and I write, respond, "Proud Zionist." [chuckles] I mean, I just... At some point, people are gonna realize going after people's sexual orientation just says more about you than it says about them.
- KSKara Swisher
It does. It's, but it's, that's a tactic. They're trying to jam that in in that race, and so unfortunately, it might work in Texas.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, it, it's an indictment on Texas that these people have done the research and f- and decided that it works.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yes, absolutely.
- SGScott Galloway
S- so I-
- KSKara Swisher
Well-
- SGScott Galloway
... I, I hope he responds. I will say this, that-
- KSKara Swisher
I'm not sure what the response is
- SGScott Galloway
... in defense... Well-
- KSKara Swisher
"I'm not gay"?
- SGScott Galloway
... in defense of James Talarico, he and I follow many of the same people on Instagram, and it's not thought leaders, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I know. Yeah, ladies.
- SGScott Galloway
It's some-
- KSKara Swisher
It's the ladies
- SGScott Galloway
... it's some scorching hot young ladies-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... who make their living with a, with a, with a webcam. [chuckles] Um-
- 11:14 – 15:50
DOJ Launches E. Jean Carroll Probe
- KSKara Swisher
Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into E. Jean Carroll, the former magazine writer who won two civil lawsuits against Trump totaling, you know, close to $90 million in payments tied to sexual abuse and defamation. The DOJ pro- probe is reportedly focused on whether Carroll committed perjury in testimony. Typical. This is what they're doing to, whether it's to Letitia James or whoever they're trying to go at. Um, specifically, Carroll saying she hadn't received outside funding for her legal bills. Her lawyers later said Reid Hoffman had contributed. This is the latest in a series of DOJ probes targeting Trump's opponents and critics like James Comey, Letitia James, and others, though none of these investigations have led to convictions. In fact, they get laughed out of court. Um, I spoke to E. Jean Carroll for an episode of On in, in July 2025. She talked about the threats she's received and why she has no fear. Let's listen.
- SPSpeaker
It's stupid to be afraid. Why live your life that way? I've been here 81 years, and I'm not gonna waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade-colored makeup. It makes no sense. So that's what I'm gonna do
- KSKara Swisher
So what do you think about this? This-- talk about misogyny and getting... You know, she's won the cases against him, and he's trying not to pay them, and he's doing everything possible to try not to pay them, and this is the latest parry using the Justice Department to carry out his toxic misogynistic efforts.
- SGScott Galloway
I think it comes down to this. So one, if she did say something that wasn't true under oath, that's real. Um, and they're claiming that she didn't acknowledge that she was getting help with her legal bills. I don't know to the extent, though, in a case like that, that is grounds for revisiting a case-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, doesn't matter
- SGScott Galloway
... when it has, when it doesn't have anything to do with the actual crime she's accusing the president of. What is consistent here is the weaponization of the DOJ to go after his political enemies. So this is just n-another example of the fact that we don't have a government that's meant to protect the people. It's now there to protect the president. I mean, ju-just to keep in mind, folks, this was a jury of his peers-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Twice
- SGScott Galloway
... who heard, heard a [chuckles] ton of evidence, and they said, "Well, it was in liberal New York." Well, okay. New York, if you had nine jurors, five are probably Democrats, but four are Republicans, and to, to mature a conviction, all nine have to agree. [laughs] So, so this was a-- You know, this was-- There's a reason that when someone is usually convicted of a crime, the public used to come together and say, "This person is guilty, and, you know, should be disqualified," or y-you know, we keep it... W- Every time this stuff happened, we keep, we kept thinking, "That's it. It's over." And it wasn't. But it's just, uh, I do think i-it's important to have a, a legal scholar to say w- in most cases, would this type of infraction, if in fact she... And she did. She did not acknowledge that she was having her legal bills paid for.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, it depends on when she was paid. They're gonna have to investigate that. But it-
- SGScott Galloway
Exactly
- KSKara Swisher
... still, they're just, they're just grabbing at straws here, is what they're doing. That's what they're trying to do to find some way to impugn her and so he doesn't have to pay that money. It's all the same. It's all about money.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't even think it's about the money. I think it's about overturning a conviction of a perceived enemy and going after her.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. I think it's going after her.
- SGScott Galloway
The guy, the guy's made billions of dollars illegally on crypto. I think it's, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
He still doesn't want to pay. He's a cheap bastard. He still doesn't want to pay.
- SGScott Galloway
I'm-- Personally, I'm surprised they did this. I would've thought they would... I think this just brings it up again. I would've thought they would've wanted to fade into the distance.
- KSKara Swisher
He doesn't care. He doesn't care. Anyway, E. Jean, uh, we hope, uh, this goes away, but it's such a, it's such a fucking nuisance, and such a ridiculous nuisance. Anyway, uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Pope Leo's warning about AI. I'm very excited to talk about this.
- SGScott Galloway
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- KSKara Swisher
[swishing] Scott, we're
- 15:50 – 26:29
Pope’s AI Encyclical
- KSKara Swisher
back, and we're gonna start off with our next topic with a question from a listener.
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Kara and Scott. My name's Bridget, and I'm calling from Oakland. I'm asking as a Catholic Buddhist Pivotarian. I was so delighted to hear that Pope Bob, also known as Pope Leo XIV, delivered his first encyclical, which was about AI, and he was speaking truth to power from a place of power, which is pretty rare. Have either of you read it? And if so, what do you think? Do you think it can move the needle towards putting guardrails up for this juggernaut that's really careening off the road already? Or maybe even rein in those dickheads who are mindlessly amping it up for their own self-serving profits? Thanks for all the humor and wisdom you've provided over the years, and keep it up. Ha ha. Yep, I just set Prof G up for a dick joke.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs] I love Bridget. I love our listeners-
- SGScott Galloway
I know. This woman's great
- KSKara Swisher
... and Pivotarian. Let's start a religion.
- SGScott Galloway
Wow.
- KSKara Swisher
That would be so good. Thank you, Bridget. That was a great question. We love your sassiness. That's the kind of listeners we love. Um, so to catch people up, Pope Leo released his first encyclical, uh, this week, a, a 4,200-word letter to all, uh, about AI titled Magnificent Humanity. Magnifin-is... I can't say it in Latin, but it's Magnificent Humanity. The Pope acknowledged that artificial intelligence can be a valuable tool. He did not trash it, but also warned the AI race could become a new Tower of Babel. Um, he shared some strong words about what needs to happen next. Let's listen to him, himself talk about it.
- SPSpeaker
Artificial intelligence needs to be disarmed. The word is strong, I know, but deliberately chosen because this moment needs words capable of attracting attention, awakening consciences, and indicating paths forward for humanity.
- KSKara Swisher
Some of the specific things the Pope is calling for, government regulation of private companies driving AI development seems normal. Protecting children from violent, sexual, or fake information generated by AI, excellent suggestion. Safeguards to make sure humans are responsible for all decisions tied to the use of weapons, again, a great thing. He also didn't, uh, shy away from talking about people at the helm of AI. That was really the focus, is who's running it. In the abstract, technology in and of itself is not a solution to humanity's problems, just it is not inherently evil. In practice, however, technology is never neutral because it takes on the characteristics of those who devise, finance, regulate, and use it.Uh, some big tech folks are on board here. Anthropic co-founder Christopher Olah, uh, joined the Pope at the Vatican as the encyclical was presented, but reactions from DC and Silicon Valley have been mixed. Vice President JD Vance called the Pope's warning profound. That was interesting. But Interior Secretary Doug Burgum told Fox News, "I didn't know what tech editorializing was part of the role of being a pope." Well, it is, Doug. It's certainly not part of ro- of your role as interior secretary. Uh, David Sacks wrote, "The Pope rightly warns that AI must serve human dignity, not become a tool of domination and exclusion." Well, someone who dominates and excludes, it's a nice thing to hear. But it goes on, "If we hand go-" Of course, he goes on, "If we hand the government sweeping power over AI development in the name of safety, how do we prevent it from being used to censor, surveil, or control citizens?" Honestly, this guy is so hypocritical. Anyway, um, what did you think of the take? And I think he's been listening to Pivot or, or a lot of stuff we talked about for years. I love Pope B- Pope being on team, on this team, but, um, thoughts on this?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, we talk a lot about the actions of the administration and different things that are just been really bad for Brand US, whether it was the insurrection or, um, you know, cutting off USA. There's just been so many poor decisions that have really hurt our brand. I actually think the best thing or one of the best things that's happened for the US brand, you know, to a certain extent, AI and just the economic boom out here, and the fact that we-- the, the most seminal technology in a long time in terms of shareholder creation and what might have an impact on the world, it's just owned and dominated by the US, that's very good for our brand. Another thing that's been great for our brand is, is the, is Pope Leo. He's just incredibly articulate. He comes across as measured, brave, connects real-world issues with spiritual issues and issues of dignity, and he's American. He went to Villanova.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, that voice. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
He's just very good.
- KSKara Swisher
Chicago. He's got such a Chicago accent.
- SGScott Galloway
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Like he'd be wanting to go, "Da Bears." The-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, right.
- KSKara Swisher
Anyway. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, but just his comments, if you were just to distill his comments, they were really powerful. He believes that AI should serve humanity, not replace it. Uh, the biggest danger is the concentration of power. He's clearly, he's talking a lot about income inequality, and he's, he's skeptical of a sm- small number of companies controlling the infrastructure of intelligence, um, and he wants-- he thinks AI could amplify inequality and create... He talked about a, a new oligarchy where private firms wield enormous influence over truth, labor, and governments. I would argue that, you know, the cat's already out, out of the bag there. Uh, one of the more controversial things or interesting things, I should say, is he said AI is not neutral, that the algorithms encode the values of the creators, not of some sort of neutral view on-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure
- SGScott Galloway
... of different views of humanity, which I'm not sure. I actually think in a weird way why social media has polarized us, I think that because I think AI is different. I think it's more m- I do think from a viewpoint and ideology standpoint, it's more moderating, uh, and sometimes it comes across as quite politically correct, I think. He also talked about job displacement being a real moral issue. Uh, autonomous weapons terrify him. He called for it to be disarmed and worried about weapons systems operating beyond meaningful-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... human control. And then he talked about human connection, the thing I love, you know, I like the softer stuff, human connection mattering more than synthetic intimacy.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, and then, and this is the thing, I think if, if you were gonna try and translate this into some sort of legislation, and we're not focused enough on this, is that, uh, children are, are the most vulnerable. And I was just thinking about, [sighs] you know, think about when you learned to, to write and how difficult it was. Like, I know you were on your school newspaper. Is that right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Claire's doing it right... Yeah, I was, but Claire's doing it right now. It's really interesting to watch. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I got s- I got a s- in my senior year of high school, I got a C in English. I had a real difficult time writing, and I went through that pain. I went through that friction, and if I had just had AI, like, write my papers, I, I never would've made those connections. I never would've gone through the friction of making those connections. And so, a-and I think the really-
- KSKara Swisher
You had trouble writing? You're a very good writer, actually. I'm always-
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I got Cs in English. As a matter of fact-
- KSKara Swisher
... happily surprised on the upside with your writing
- SGScott Galloway
... because I did the work, right? And I think the question is, if you have-- if kids have AI, do they ever do the work and make the connections? As a matter of fact, in my first year at UCLA, I was failing English One, and I said, "What happens if you f- fail English One?" Because it was a core class, so you had to take it. It was a requisite. They say, "Well, you have to take English as a second language," despite the fact-
- 26:29 – 41:31
AI News
- KSKara Swisher
more AI to get to. We have a lot of little stories, but important. Uh, installs for DuckDuckGo have jumped 30% after Google announced its first overhaul in 24 years. Many people are disturbed by this. Um, Google changes include a shift to AI with bigger, more interactive search box that lets users ask longer questions and upload photographs. It's, it's a significant change for search. Um, I have not used Google Search in a long time, in a weird way.
- SGScott Galloway
Sure.
- KSKara Swisher
I do it, I, I actually just-
- SGScott Galloway
What do you use?
- KSKara Swisher
I definitely use it for some things, but I tend to use, I use all kinds of search services, but it's not only through Google is all I'm saying. It used to be only through Google, and I like the simple box. I feel lucky box. I've always thought it was fine, but I see why they're doing it. At the same time, a lot of people are like, "Now they're never gonna link to anything but what they wanna link to." But they've just sort of ended it for most people using Google to get to, say, media websites or whatever, whatever you're looking for, so that seems to be a shift.
- SGScott Galloway
I think it's a smart, bold move. I, I think they've been accused... W-when you risk what is arguably or do any tweaks, the temptation around what is the most profitable, largest toll booth in history, when you risk, y-you know, there's just probably so much momentum to like, "Guys, don't fuck with it. Like, don't-
- KSKara Swisher
Absolutely
- SGScott Galloway
... don't change anything." So I think it's actually a pretty bold move.
- KSKara Swisher
It is.
- SGScott Galloway
And I do find when I do Google search, those AI overviews are actually quite helpful.
- KSKara Swisher
They've gotten better.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
They were bad, and now they're good.
- SGScott Galloway
You said that. You said you like them.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
I do
- SGScott Galloway
... so it's, uh, I, I think it's the right thing. They have to respond. They have to push back. The reason why Alphabet was such an incredible buy trading at 17 times earnings last year was the market believed that OpenAI and AI queries were a, an existential threat to search, that it was gonna become the new search, and what we're seeing is they're both growing like crazy. So, but I find that I do oftentimes go to, uh, Claude instead of Google.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, exactly, and Google just never gives me what I want anymore. It's not, it's useless in some ways. And, but when I, like, look for, like, how do you boil an egg or... I don't do that, but, um, you know, how many minutes for a jammy egg? I'll go to Google, right? That's... But now, actually, I might go to Claude. You're right. I might do that. So they, they kinda have to. You're right. I know people are bothered, but it's cha- they have to change. You're absolutely right. Um, next up, President Trump abruptly postponed signing an executive order a-on AI after former AI czar David Sacks reportedly voiced concerns it could prove too onerous for the industry. He got back. He was, had lost power, then he got it back, I guess. The order would have granted the government oversight on a new AI models before they're released to the public. Very temporary oversight, by the way, and it was, some of it was voluntary. AI companies also been told that Trump was not happy that many of their chief executives could not attend the signing. That's probably more to the point, uh, being invited just 24 hours prior. I, I don't think this order will resurface. There was a, a brief attempt by certain people within the Trump administration, uh, who, who were, who were more interested in safety issues, and, uh, David, you know, got in there and, and so did Zuckerberg and, um, someone else. I can't remember who it was, a third person, um, who got in there and convinced him otherwise. Uh, Elon. It was Elon.
- SGScott Galloway
This was, uh, I thought it was a good idea. Um, the order would have required AI labs to share frontier models with the government 90 days before public release for security review.
- KSKara Swisher
Seems fair.
- SGScott Galloway
That seems like a very important and basic first step for any of this. Something that really struck me was the founders of this technology, the people that know m-more about it than any in the world, are saying that this technology is potentially more liberating than, than nuclear fusion and potentially more dangerous. So here's a technology that the people who understand it the best are saying is potentially more dangerous than nuclear weapons. We didn't let Oppenheimer start a company and start selling bombs to China.
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs] That's a good comparison.
- SGScott Galloway
S-so-
- KSKara Swisher
That's actually a very good, th-that's smart
- SGScott Galloway
... well, I think there's a really decent rational argument that if in fact you have something that is potentially more dangerous than any weapon in historyWouldn't you want the government controlling it?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes. Y- we want it to be part of the decision-making
- SGScott Galloway
And they're not only, we're not only not controlling it, it's not only done, it's not only, uh, done under the auspices of the Department of Defense cooperating with the private sector or Lawrence Livermore Labs or what have you. We have people trying to go public, and who have lawyers and lobbyists, uh, many of whom stepped in here to say, "You know, we all talk about the need for regulation." We've been to this movie before. We talk about, we show up and stand next to the Pope and say, in cosplay Sheryl Sandberg, "We need to do better."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"We need to regu-"
- 41:31 – 54:04
SpaceX + Tesla?
- KSKara Swisher
SpaceX prepares to go public, rumors are again circulating that Elon Musk will eventually combine the company with Tesla. Obviously. God, I mean, we're not speaking, but I know how this guy thinks. M- Musk has reportedly discussed the possibility with colleagues. The two companies already share engineers and collaborate. There's all kinds of cross stuff that, a lot of sketchy cross stuff, if you recall at the time when he took over Twitter, and collaborate on power and compute issues. Also, um, uh, by the way, SpaceX got a $2.29 billion contract to build a satellite communications network to connect military sensors and weapons platforms around the world. Um, they have to, uh, uh, deliver an operational prototype by the end of 2027. So he's doing well. He's doing well with his, his Trump, uh, uh, help of Trump, et cetera. The ben- It's a mutual benefit society for them. But this, uh, this putting Tesla in here, it just makes complete sense is that he's... Someone said it was like two... It was mortgage-backed securities, a bunch of pe- bunch of companies that can't pay wrapped around Elon Musk and a company that's okay, which is Starlink. Um, so it's like a sort of a collection. And so he's shoving this stuff all together. Um, the d- um, the d- it makes sense on a data point of view. Um, it makes sense, uh, to hide a bunch of stuffUh, he already had these weird, very questionable transactions, like buying Cybertrucks for, for SpaceX, which makes no sense except if you want to look good. Um, so why not just mash the whole fucking thing together and then make everybody buy it, uh, who is in a, an index fund, which is another thing. So any of these comments, the contract, the merger, the, the Nasdaq situation?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, you did predict it, but my analogy is the following. Um, Snow White is hot, and the prospect of getting to marry Snow White is super exciting, and Snow White is SpaceX. But unfortunately, to buy SpaceX, you got to take on these seven fucking weirdos who are expensive and neurotic. And I mean, xAI, which has been attached onto, uh, SpaceX, an incredible company, is a money furnace that's playing ca-catch up. And SpaceX-
- KSKara Swisher
It's trying to be an infrastructure provider now. So is, so is, um, Meta, by the way, but go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
I still think Tesla's a great product. I got in one the other day, and I do st- I do think they have a fantastic car, but it's a struggling business with a multiple of 120, 92 times forward earnings, and Apple trades at 33 times forward earnings. And then if you look at Tesla's just business in the, in, in Europe, they've-
- KSKara Swisher
It's fallen off the cliff
- SGScott Galloway
... sales have fallen for 13 consecutive months. Its market share in Europe has gone from 1% to 0.8%, while the EV market has expanded about 30% in 2025. In Norway, sales were down 90%, Netherlands down 80%, UK down 50%.
- KSKara Swisher
Keep on buying it.
- SGScott Galloway
Meanwhile, BYD registrations-
- KSKara Swisher
BYD
- SGScott Galloway
... are up 260%-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... in Europe. And the reason why its valuation-
- KSKara Swisher
Can I just note?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
I didn't say it was a bad car. I said he didn't innovate in it. There was another in new cars, and BYD keeps innovating. Every time you see a new one, you're like, "Cool." Tesla's the same, pretty much the same car for the past-
- SGScott Galloway
Well-
- KSKara Swisher
And then they deliver Cybertruck as their innovation, so that's my beef.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, uh, uh, stocks are like brands, and that is they're part p-promise and part performance, and the promise, uh, no one articulates and gets more cheap capital on the promise part of that equation than Elon Musk. He's arguably the best salesperson and communicator in the history of the public markets. And the promise though, uh, the performance is g- is like so far behind the promise. For example, the promise has not worked out. So Robotaxi miles, they doubled sequentially in Q1, but it's, he was saying that there would be 1,000 Robotaxis on the road about five years ago. Uh, across all three Texas cities where Robotaxis operate, Tesla has just 25 unsupervised vehicles. Um, I mean, none, right? Meanwhile, their SF Robotaxi service still uses a safety monitor in the front seat, and there are five, and there are five more cities on the way, but Musk timelines famously cannot be trusted. And then, and then he tries to create all of these distractions. Look over here at robots. I'm staying, I'm staying in Beverly Hills in Los Angeles. If I go to my, my deck, I can see a Waymo. They're everywhere in LA, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
There's actually fewer, uh, of the Tesla taxis, Robotaxis in, in Austin. They've cut them back-
- SGScott Galloway
And then-
- KSKara Swisher
... FYI
- SGScott Galloway
... and then th-the worst car release, or, you know, the worst tech product the last year was the Cybertruck, which by the way, is about to be bested by one of the great brands in history. You're about to see one of the biggest brand failures in history, and that is the equivalent. Tech has literally, like, infected so many things, and it's infected one of the purest brands in the world. It's infected Ferrari. The new electric Ferrari is about to be just panned. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
It was, yeah. Yeah, it, it's getting panned right now.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, it's gonna be-
- KSKara Swisher
It's getting-
- SGScott Galloway
It's gonna be one of the-
- KSKara Swisher
It's Johnny Ive, the Johnny Ive devi- design.
- SGScott Galloway
It's gonna be one of the brand stories of the year.
- KSKara Swisher
They said it looks like a Honda, right?
- SGScott Galloway
It's basically they said, uh, Apple gave up on their Project Titan, and they slapped a, they slapped a, a, a stallion on it. You're gonna see, oh my God, you're gonna see the Ferrari purest. You're gonna see so many 80-year-old old men going onto TikTok for the first time in their lives to shit post this thing. And SpaceX, get this, SpaceX accounted for nearly 20% of Cybertruck sales in Q4 2025 'cause he bought back a bunch of Cybertrucks. So, uh, I think it's smart for him to do. It's more jazz hands. It's more pretending, attaching something to something amazing to try and-
- 54:04 – 1:01:52
“60 Minutes” Hiring and Firing
- KSKara Swisher
I wanna mention something quickly. CBS News just named tech journalist Nick Bilton as the new executive producer of 60 Minutes. Bilton is a longtime tech journalist and filmmaker who's never worked in traditional broadcast news. I know Nick. Uh, interesting. I'll see. It'll be interesting to see what he has to d- what he's gonna do there. UmAnd, uh, we'll see where it goes. This comes on the heels of 60 Minutes correspondent Sharyn Alfonsi announcing that CBS declined to renew her contract. She's an excellent reporter. She did great stuff on Character.ai. She's been a wonderful reporter. The move comes six months after Alfonsi's report on abuse inside Salvadoran prisons was abruptly pulled, uh, before airing a month later. Alfonsi called the decision political, and it certainly was. In a statement, she said she did a really, uh-- like, she just burnt the house down leaving. Alfonsi said the exit is, quote, "A deliberate choice to penalize a journalist for refusing to sanitize factually accurate reporting." She added, "Sends a chilling message across the entire newsroom." And by the way, Sharyn's not the only one. A-Anderson Cooper stepping out the way he is not usually, leaving a few weeks ago saying, "I hope 60 Minutes remains 60 Minutes." He also was sending sort of a, a, a shot across the bow there. I just wanna call these two excellent journalists of 60 Minutes, and, um, Sharyn's a badass. I, I don't... I k- I know her, m-m... just met her on text, actually. But, uh, and Anderson, I think, has done an amazing job, so these are two really, uh, really great journalists, and I, I predict that they will do just fine. But good for them for, for, uh, speaking out, and m- especially good, there was a student who won an award at the Emmys last night, uh, what, what-- was named, uh, a scholarship for Mike Wallace, and he delivered a blistering attack on, uh, uh, supporting these, these two journalists and supporting others like them, and I thought that person was incredibly-- It's very hard to speak out, and Anderson and Sharyn and this young student, uh, did so, and I, I really-- You'll do-- You guys will do just fine. Of c- Anderson particularly, but in general, um, good for you for standing up. That's all I have to say.
- SGScott Galloway
It'll be a really interesting case study in organizational behavior and management classes in business school, and that is, corporations continue to fall for the notion that if they bring in a small company they perceive as really innovative, that that small virus is gonna infect the entire corpus. And generally, almost always what you find is that the corpus rejects the virus. It's like, w- acquisitions work when the acquiring company has the scale and distribution or capital to help scale the small, innovative company. But to believe that the innovation is going to infect the larger corporation or corpus almost never works out. So let's give, let's give the Free Press the benefit of the doubt. Innovative little company, subscription-based, interesting positioning, and the Ellison thought that's the kind of mojo and juice and infection we need at this larger, somewhat encephalitic corpus called CBS or Paramount. Uh, there's been organ rejection. Also, what CEOs of smaller companies fail to recognize is the following, and it's the reason why I've never been able to grow a big company to small companies, and that is, a small company is ready, fire, aim. The person at the top really does get to make swift, crisp decisions. I am the decider. This is the way we're going. Our-- One of our key things here is speed, which means, uh, this is not a democracy. There's very few things that are less democratic than a small company trying to work fast or go fast, 'cause it's kinda like, "What do we think? Okay, get on it. Ready, fire, aim. Let's start yesterday." In a large organization that's scaling, it's more about consensus and, and getting people on board and culture, and you're, you're a speedboat ramming a tanker. And what you fail to realize as the CEO of a company like this, and what I think Barry has failed to realize, is you're Phil Jackson, the coach of the Bulls, and that is, your job, you're blessed with some unbelievable assets. Your job is not to coach Michael Jordan, it's to get along with him and be a resource for him. You're not in charge. They are. They're, they're the asset. When you're Mikel Arteta and you're coaching Bukayo Saka at Arsenal, which by the way, just won the Premier League, this is very exciting. When you come into an organization like CBS and you do have kind of these stars that are iconic, your job is to get along with them.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, let me say, 60 Minutes have been enormously successful. It's not unsuccessful.
- SGScott Galloway
That's my point.
- KSKara Swisher
I mean, no, but I'm just saying, like, pretending it's just 'cause they're encephalitic and this sassy, uh, new startup is gonna change things. I think a lot of these errors are errors of incompetence, not of trying to change things, and these old people won't change. These are, like, top-level journalists that are-- were doing a great job and has had fifty-two years of success. Like, you know, they're doing well. It's not like they're not doing well, so why poke them?
- SGScott Galloway
I, I, I, I think we're speaking past each other.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Okay.
- SGScott Galloway
I'm agreeing with you.
- KSKara Swisher
All right.
- SGScott Galloway
CBS is Michael Jordan.
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
Barry Weiss is Phil Jackson.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
His job isn't to show up and reorganize and tell everyone how to dribble and play again. His job, quite frankly, is to get-- The only management of CBS is the following: "Hi. Nice to meet you. How can I help?"
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
That's it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
How can I help?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. And I agree with you.
- SGScott Galloway
And if the answer is, "Go away and leave us alone"-
- KSKara Swisher
You're absolutely right. Right
- SGScott Galloway
... fine. If it's, "We could use more resources here, we have trouble here," or, "We don't think our advertisers are right," how can I help? That's it.
- KSKara Swisher
Let me say, one of the things, it happened at The Washington Post, too. Blaming these reporters, like when Will Lewis was, like, trashing the reporters, is, like, it's such an easy thing to do for people who think they're innovative, is like, "You all suck." And some of, some of the things need to change, but to say it's, it's a problem of-- It's a bigger secular problem that's the issue in terms of cost and everything else. And so just telling people, just breaking things is not building things, and that's, that is really hard to do when you're a s- I-- That's why w- I never wanna be at a big company. I don't know about you, but I like a s- being a small speedboat. And if you make mistakes, you make mistakes. If you don't, you don't. I-- That's how I feel, but I don't know about you.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, yeah, and this is, this is the reason why I've never built a billion-dollar company. I sell companies, you know, when they-- as soon as they have a CFO or someone in HR, I'm like, "Time to sell." But having been on, involved with a lot of big companies, I-- it just shocked me. It just shocked me. Right away, the first thing I thought, "Well, we should do this, this, and this."And the CEOs role was okay, they really had to think about what would be required to get buy-in-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yep
- SGScott Galloway
... to, to ch- to potentially change-
- KSKara Swisher
Very hard
- SGScott Galloway
... the culture.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
To explain, be thoughtful, to create the right incentive mechanisms to ensure the behavior lined up. A- and I mean, you really are... You... There, there's some amazing things about a tanker, right? It can carry whatever it is, 100 million barrels or 10 million barrels of a product. Uh, but you are, you know, you're steering a tanker, and it takes a lot of effort and a big engine room and a lot of people. It's, it is a different... There's so few people that can go from... A lot of people, I always say, "Where are you in the alphabet?"
- 1:01:52 – 1:09:43
Predictions
- SGScott Galloway
wins and fails.
- KSKara Swisher
Go for it, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
But my win is, and it just hasn't gotten enough attention, and it's just so exciting, and it's such a victory for the West, and I would argue it's actually in many ways, while Iran has overshadowed it and inflation, uh, I, people really don't understand that something incredibly wonderful is going on here.
- KSKara Swisher
Which is? What?
- SGScott Galloway
And that is three years ago, Russia was supposed to take Kyiv in a weekend.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And today, Ukraine is striking Russian t- Russian military infrastructure, oil refineries, ports, bomber bases, and semiconductor plants.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
Hundreds, sometimes, sometimes more than 1,000 kilometers inside of Russia. Putin is on the run.
- KSKara Swisher
He is. It's re- I told you when I told you that a couple weeks ago that all these people said Russ- he's in much more trouble than you realize. But go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Just recently, they've hit the Ryazan refinery, one of Russia's largest fuel plants, supplying the mi- military, the Tuapse refinery in the Black Sea. They're going after ships. They're going after the Black Sea Fleet, oil f- uh, infrastructure in Perm, 700 miles from the border.
- KSKara Swisher
Amazing.
- SGScott Galloway
The Yaza- Yazalavrey Refinery, 700 ki- kilometers inside of Russia, and even the Ingushetia-
- KSKara Swisher
Can you imagine in this country if that happened? Jesus Christ.
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs] If they started bombing o- oil fields-
- KSKara Swisher
Buffalo
- SGScott Galloway
... in Texas?
- KSKara Swisher
Buffalo. Like, or whatever.
- SGScott Galloway
Or, or, uh, w- our-
- KSKara Swisher
Chicago
- SGScott Galloway
... our military ships in San Diego?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Can you imagine?
- KSKara Swisher
No. No.
- SGScott Galloway
Or our-
- KSKara Swisher
No. That's what I think about
- SGScott Galloway
... our, our place, our, um, in Norfolk-
- KSKara Swisher
Those Canadians
- SGScott Galloway
... or Norfolk, Virginia-
- KSKara Swisher
Seattle
Episode duration: 1:09:44
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Transcript of episode 44OwR6jlw_8
