Brené Brown on courageous leadership | ReThinking with Adam Grant

Brené Brown 0:00 My two values are faith and courage, and those are two areas where I would be willing to sacrifice and do that on a regular basis. Like, "Ugh, Jesus, I want to hate your guts. Um, but I'm gonna sacrifice hating you because I have to find God in everybody's house." Um-

Adam Grant 0:16 [laughs] And you roll your eyes as you say that.

Brené Brown 0:18 I do.

Adam Grant 0:19 [laughs]

Brené Brown 0:19 God said nothing about-- God has told me nothing about enjoying the practice.

Adam Grant 0:26 [upbeat music] So I, I was at an event last week in New York, and, uh, this-- someone came up to me, and h- after having asked a brilliant question, said, "You're my second favorite author."

Brené Brown 0:42 [laughs]

Adam Grant 0:43 And I was very flattered, and then I was like, "Wait a minute, who, who's the first?" And the answer was Brené Brown. [audience cheering] I, I was just glad to be on the list.

Brené Brown 0:57 Well, first of all, people are laughing so hard at us. I w- I, I was telling you about-

Adam Grant 1:01 At us, not with us.

Brené Brown 1:01 Yeah, not, not with us, not at us. Literally, someone put, "I love the podcast. I just, I think of y'all as smart people, and it's so weird to watch y'all cha- watch you change your minds."

Adam Grant 1:14 Isn't that what learning is?

Brené Brown 1:15 To me, the most joyful thing is learning, the pursuit, the passionate pursuit of mastery. Like really having a problem to solve or a strategy to figure out that you almost don't wanna figure it out because trying to solve it is so much fun, and that's so uniquely human. I just-- I'm wondering why that's fallen out of favor a little bit. I'm wondering why the value has shifted from courage as being a knower instead of courage as being a learner. That's not gonna serve us right now. When I talk to senior leaders all over the world, and they're saying, "Boy, it's really problematic when people come in, and they think-- they act like they know everything." What I'm looking for are candidates who have exquisite questions and are really hungry to solve the problem. And so I think we have to shift the thinking there a lot.

Adam Grant 2:12 I'm inclined to agree with you on that, and asking questions is one of the things that you do best. So I think for, for those who have not been following Brené's work since you were four, I think when, when I first became acquainted with your work, it was when you were introducing yourself as a, a narrative researcher, as somebody who studied stories. And I was, I was just blown away by the, the, both the breadth and the depth of the questions that you ask people, and I've always wondered how you come up with your questions. And you just said, "Hey, asking great questions is a skill." Can you teach it to us?

Brené Brown 2:43 I can, and I can't-- I will definitely not take credit for it. Um, I will definitely go back to Barney Glaser, Glaser and Strauss.

Adam Grant 2:52 Grounded theory.

Brené Brown 2:53 Grounded theory. I'm a grounded theory researcher, and Anselm and Strauss were trying to develop a methodology for studying children who were dying. And back when they were trying to do it in the early sixties, there was a pact when a child was dying that the nurses, physicians, and parents, and religious folks, clergy, would not tell the child they're dying. They would keep that information from the child. So Glaser and Strauss were trying to figure out, how can we talk to these children about their experiences when we can't let them know what's happening? So they came up with this idea of just a spill question, which became the real heart of grounded theory, which is, "Tell me about your illness." And the children would say, "I'm dying, and it must be really terrible, or it must really hurt 'cause not even my parents will tell me about it." Yeah. So in grounded theory, we start with the main concern of the population, and then the theory we develop is how the population is continually resolving that concern. Does that make sense?

Adam Grant 4:10 Yeah.

Brené Brown 4:11 And that and how we continually resolve those concerns is the basic social process that becomes a grounded theory. One of the things I think is, is this the nerd-out? Is this too nerdy?

Adam Grant 4:22 I don't know. We have to ask the audience.

Brené Brown 4:22 Oh, shit. I mean, who am I asking here?

Adam Grant 4:25 [laughs]

Brené Brown 4:26 Um, so to me, the questions I ask are really about getting to what your main concern is, not what I think it is or what the world portrays it as. That's the way I work today, so if I go into an organization, I'll spend three weeks just asking questions. I'll just look at a CEO and say, "What's on your heart and mind? If you sit up straight in bed at four o'clock in the morning, what are you worried about?" And then that's what I'm trying to resolve. Yes, I'm listening to investor calls, and yes, I'm looking at data, performance data and engagement data, but what I really wanna know is what is keeping you up at night, and how do we go after that?

Adam Grant 5:06 I would say the typical CEO I encounter is not that excited to talk about the thing that they're stressed about. How do you break through that barrier?

Brené Brown 5:14 Fifth generation Texan. Um, you know, why am I here if you don't wanna talk about it? I got shit to do and places to be, so we can either talk about it or I can go home. You know? Like, I don't get it. But I think for me, I often talk about playing to win versus playing not to lose. I'm not everybody's cup of tea, as you can imagine. But I just say, "Look, what's more important to you, to protect your ego or to win? And if you wanna win, we're gonna have to have these hard conversations. Um, and if you can't have har- these hard conversations and you continue to play not to lose, let me tell you what that looks like both on a pitch, on a field, and in an organization." Playing not to lose- Is always losing.

Adam Grant 6:11 How do you adapt that to the MBA and undergrad students in the room? So it's harder for them to go to their boss or their boss's boss and say, "Hey, do you wanna succeed here, or do you wanna protect your fragile ego?"

Brené Brown 6:22 I would definitely send that via text.

Adam Grant 6:25 [laughs]

Speaker 6:26 [laughs]

Brené Brown 6:26 I think the strategy is actually the same, and I was talking to a recent MBA graduate at UT at McCombs. They have a, a program for vets who wanna come back and get their MBA. And so we were talking about how care for and connection with the people you lead is an irreducible prerequisite of courageous leadership. If you do not care for and are able to connect with the people you lead, you will never see performance, period. You might do well in a very short period of time, but we both know, like, if without genuine care for and connection with, you don't. And so he asked this question. He said, you know, "I come from a setting in the military where caring for and connecting to is a fairly low bar," which I think is true, 'cause we both do w- w- work in the military. Like, they... Even the Air Force has, "Without deep affection for the troops you lead, we will move the tr- we will move the soldier, or we will move you." And so he said, "That's how I lead, but it's not accepted by my boss or the senior leaders." And I said that I would change the focus of the conversation. Here's how the, I would do the conversation. I would say, "If you work for me, I want us to win, and I wanna contribute to the win. Help me understand what that looks like. What do you need me to do to win?" And then Adam would say, "Here's what we need to win. We need to reduce churn here. We need to increase growth here, and we've gotta solve these two problems here." Then I would do this always: "Can I play back what I think you're saying?" Always the playback. "Here's what you're saying. We need to reduce churn. We need to grow this thing by 3% a quarter for the next two quarters, and then we have this problem that we need to solve around supply chain. That's not directly me, but here are the three things I can do to help." And then your boss says, "That's exactly right." "Okay. I'm gonna be on it. I wanna ask you one thing. I have a way to win with my team that I think makes me the most effective leader and drives the most performance and trust in my team. I'm clear on what you want. I've played it back for you. I need permission to lead my team." That's exactly how I would do it.

Adam Grant 8:38 That's powerful. Can you, can you just accompany a bunch of our students to their jobs when they graduate?

Brené Brown 8:44 [laughs]

Speaker 8:44 [laughs]

Brené Brown 8:44 No, I don't work for anybody. Um, if you're like, "Oh, is that how leaders talk to each other?" Hell no. Like, one out of 1,000 people I meet would have that conversation, right? Like, i- i- it's, it's a rare thing. So you know who I go to? This is why we're such a cute couple on the podcast, um, 'cause I don't remember anybody's name. And I'm like, "Who's that dude, researcher, Baylor?" And you're like, "The first article came out in 1977." Yeah.

Adam Grant 9:07 Try me.

Brené Brown 9:08 Uh, Negotiating FBI.

Adam Grant 9:10 Chris Voss. Never Split the Difference.

Brené Brown 9:12 Never Split the Difference. He knows everybody's name, and I can say, "The carpet is centered," and you're like, "16 years of research on carpet centering would show..." I mean, I... It's like, it's, uh... This is why I love talking to you. It is really true. It's, like, you're really good at, you're really good at contextualizing in, in per... We've worked on this. You're really-

Adam Grant 9:34 I'm shaking my head at carpets.

Brené Brown 9:35 Okay, but you're really good at doing this.

Adam Grant 9:37 [laughs] Thank you, Brené.

Brené Brown 9:39 You're welcome.

Speaker 9:40 [laughs]

Adam Grant 9:42 Uh, Brené told me I was bad at re- accepting compliments, and a lot of people have given me that feedback, and I take pride in being someone who takes feedback well, and now I'm stuck.

Brené Brown 9:53 [laughs]

Speaker 9:54 [laughs]

Adam Grant 9:54 I have to say thank you. Anyway.

Brené Brown 9:55 There's so many things to compliment you about.

Adam Grant 9:57 Uh, enough. Okay. So-

Speaker 9:58 [laughs]

Brené Brown 9:59 I was doing work with the FBI hostage negotiators, because a lot of their work is about emotional resonance, understanding emotion, right? If I had to give one takeaway from Chris's work that I think is really helpful, it's this: Whether hostages or the hostage-taker lives, whether they live or die often comes down to two words. You're the hostage-taker, and I'm the negotiator for the FBI, and you're telling me what's going on. Like, "Shit. Okay. So let me get this right, Adam. You can never get a fucking break. They took your kids. Your wife left you. They shit on you at your job, and nothing ever goes your way, no matter how hard you work." And if you say back to me two words, "That's right," there is a connection now that changes all the variables about survival. It's a human being. Like, we are neurobiologically hardwired to be seen and heard, and that "that's right" is really a big part of being able to play back. So what's missing for, I think, new MBA students, new business students in general, just younger leaders, new t- people leaders, is the playback. So if I say to Adam, "So all you really care about, Adam, is me reducing churn." And Adam goes, "No. Reducing churn is part of a three-legged stool. I need you to redu- reduce churn, but we have got to have growth. We have to have ARR for three quarters that looks like this." So that part is missing when you're managing up. Does that make sense? It's a really big part of getting clarity. I hear you. I can play back for you accurately what's happening.

Adam Grant 11:39 The other thing I love about this is it's classic motivation theory. Um, I'm thinking about Victor Vroom, expectancy theory. So many people, when they try to motivate someone, they project their own motivations-

Brené Brown 11:50 Yes

Adam Grant 11:50 ... onto them, as opposed to saying, "If I wanna motivate you, I've gotta know what you value."

Brené Brown 11:54 That's it.

Adam Grant 11:55 And so by starting the conversation with that leader and asking, "What d- what does, what does success look like for you?" I'm now in a better position to ask you for what I want, because it's aligned with your values and your goals, as opposed to at odds with or unrelated to what you care about.

Brené Brown 12:11 Hundred, that, that's it

Adam Grant 12:12 We're gonna, we're gonna talk about your new book, Strong Ground. And I think that values are one of the most important parts of this book. Um, you push us all to identify our two core values. As you know, I've been struggling with three, and I would love you to walk us through how to figure out what your values are. Um, maybe I'll just start by saying, for a long time, I thought about values just as guiding principles, and I said, "It's what you care about." And I think that was incomplete. I think it's not just what you care about, it's what you sacrifice for. One of the ways that I've become clear about what my values are is to look at the things that I give up and why. I saw myself sacrificing, um, like, time hanging out with my friends to, to field people's requests and help them, and that made it clear to me, okay, I'm giving up time with this group of people that I, I really like because I wanna make a contribution here. That says to me that being helpful is really important to me. Um, I saw myself, um, in a couple of situations, uh, that I regret now, wandering into situations where I thought I was probably gonna fail. Um, and I was willing to sacrifice my ego because I really wanted to get better. And I saw, okay, that's, that's some combination of excellence and integrity. And so I guess my first question for you is, what do you think about this distinction of values aren't just what you care about, they're what you sacrifice for?

Brené Brown 13:28 I think I'm gonna use it from this split second forward.

Adam Grant 13:31 Okay.

Brené Brown 13:32 When we were doing the qualitative interviewing of daring leaders who care about performance and culture equally, who care about people and impact, they were so clear and could speak so quickly, and they never had more than one or two core values. And when I would dig in that, they would say, "You know what? That's important to me, but these two are where everything else is forged. Like, yes, I care about a lot of things, but these two values, this is, this is where the rubber hits the road." So my two values are faith and courage, and those are two areas where I would be willing to sacrifice and do that on a regular basis. Like, "Oh, Jesus, I wanna hate your guts. Um, but I'm gonna sacrifice hating you because I have to find God in everybody's face." Um-

Adam Grant 14:22 [laughs] And you roll your eyes as you say that.

Brené Brown 14:24 I do. God said nothing about, God has told me nothing about enjoying the practice.

Adam Grant 14:29 [laughs]

Speaker 14:31 [laughs]

Brené Brown 14:31 At all. Like, but I am willing to sacrifice a lot of things, including my self-righteousness, for my values. Um, and I think it's a beautiful and a different way of thinking about where things are forged. So when we give people this ginormous list of values, um, there's the two places where they really struggle the most, and we talked about this on the podcast, was one, they're like, "Are we talking about personal values or professional values?" I was like, "You only have one set. Like, like, just your values, you know?" And then the other question is like, "I need 15." And so we always say, "Circle 15, and then start asking yourself, what two are the home base and the fire for everything else?" And, uh, and we've never had anyone not be able to get there, and we've probably done... Well, we know we've done it with at least 160,000 people, 'cause that's the data we have.

Adam Grant 15:30 Only 160,000.

Brené Brown 15:31 But over six years. Yeah. So, but, but we know that people get there. But then what's really exciting is that's where they think they leave it, and you know I'm not a fan of, like, an, a value not operationalized into behaviors. Neither are you. And that's what most organizations we go into have all the posters and have done none of the work. Like integrity with an equal. Ha.

Adam Grant 15:56 [laughs]

Speaker 15:57 [laughs]

Brené Brown 16:00 What does it even mean? And so then we have people operationalize their values into behaviors, find indicator lights when they're out of a alignment. So for example, for me, I know I'm out of alignment with my courage value when I'm in resentment, 'cause I'm probably not being brave enough to ask for what I need or want, or I'm not setting a boundary. I'm not being brave in some ways if I'm in resentment. And so that work becomes...

Brené Brown 16:31 It's actually a trick that we do. When we first started doing Dare to Lead work in organizations, the four skill sets of courage have held. Um, they've held through COVID and all the new data, the, you know, everything.

Adam Grant 16:44 Tell us what the four are.

Brené Brown 16:45 Are living into your values, the ability to rumble with vulnerability-

Adam Grant 16:51 Mm

Brené Brown 16:51 ... meaning to be able to be in uncertainty, risk, and exposure, and be able to stay grounded, clear-headed, emotionally regulated, and make good decisions. The ability to build trust with others and self-trust. No one talks about self-trust, which is a big thing, and often the first casualty of failure. And then the last is to be able to reset. Can you be responsible for your own bounce after failure, disappointment, and setback? So these are the four skill sets of courage. When we first started teaching it, we taught rumbling with vulnerability first, and the college students in a course that I taught at UT, at the end, we asked for feedback and they were like, "Dude, you need to teach values first." And I was like, "Why?" And it was a class that we, and ac- we actually, we did the feedback as a class so they could experience saying hard things to me that were productive and respectful, and we could say things to each other and they could learn how to be neu- you know, just their nervous system be in a hard conversation. And I said, "Tell me why." And they said, "Once, you had to convince us that vulnerability was something we needed to experience and manage. But if you did values first, people would understand intrinsically- That if they wanted to live into their values, they would need to be vulnerable and courageous, and you wouldn't have to convince anybody of anything. They're choosing courage. They're choosing generosity. They're choosing excellence. If you want those things, and you wanna live into those things, then diving into uncertainty and risk and exposure is not optional.

Adam Grant 18:32 I love that. You know, it, it reminds me of an exercise I've been doing for years with students and also with leaders, and I'm gonna put you in the hot seat for this one. So, okay, you just mentioned vulnerability. Why is vulnerability important to you?

Brené Brown 18:43 Because my value is courage. If there's no uncertainty, no risk, and no exposure, you're not being that brave.

Adam Grant 18:49 Why is courage important to you?

Brené Brown 18:51 Because the word courage in its original definition, cour, meaning heart, and the original definition of courage was to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart. We are nothing without our story, and to not tell it honestly pulls all the meaning out of our lives. So to me, I want a meaningful life, and I'm gonna have to be brave to do that.

Adam Grant 19:14 Why do you care about having a meaningful life?

Brené Brown 19:16 I'd be failing this fucking class.

Speaker 19:19 [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:20 [laughs]

Brené Brown 19:21 'Cause what's the point if you're not? Wow, that was hard.

Adam Grant 19:25 It's supposed to be hard, but when somebody has a long list of values, I just-- We pick a value, and we go through the, the why, why, why process, and eventually they just kind of throw up their hands and say, "Because that's who I am," or, "Because that's important to me," or, "Because otherwise, what's the point?" And at that point I know we've reached a terminal as opposed to instrumental value. Um, so many of our values are in service of other values, right? The terminal values are, "No, this is core." So you-- I think you, you landed courage as a core value.

Speaker 19:56 [laughs]

Brené Brown 19:56 I see you, Adam Grant.

Adam Grant 19:58 [laughs]

Speaker 19:58 [laughs]

Adam Grant 19:59 What does that mean?

Speaker 20:04 [clapping]

Brené Brown 20:05 That was... It was irritating but effective.

Speaker 20:09 [laughs]

Adam Grant 20:10 Okay, so but then to your point, I think it has more comedic effect if you do it this way, but it's much friendlier when it's like, "Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about why that's important to you." We wanna then go the other way and say, "How? How do you live that value?"

Brené Brown 20:22 Yeah.

Adam Grant 20:22 And that's where you get to your behavioral standards. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit because you're-- I, I have been just floored by how specific and clear and actionable these are. Like, can you take us from, "Okay, my core value is courage," to how do you come up with behaviors that would fulfill courage and violate courage?

Brené Brown 20:42 Hmm. I think the hardest one that I'm working in every day 'cause it's so val-- I don't talk about people, I talk to people.

Adam Grant 20:50 And how did you come to that as a behavior that was key to courage?

Brené Brown 20:55 I think it was from the integrity hangover that I would have after I talked to some-- about somebody with someone and thought, A, the person I was talking about deserves more respect than this, and B, the person I was talking to should, in fact, trust me less.

Adam Grant 21:16 Wow.

Brené Brown 21:17 Yeah. I don't wanna be that person. And I, and, and I would say I have more hard conversations a day than ninety percent of the people I know. I always have.

Adam Grant 21:27 I've seen it. I can vouch for it.

Brené Brown 21:28 Oh.

Adam Grant 21:28 I've been the beneficiary of it.

Brené Brown 21:30 Um, oh, we have had a hard conversation or two. Yeah. I go in knowing that I'm very messy and imperfect, and I will have had a part. When whatever's not going well, I have a part.

Adam Grant 21:42 I wanna pick up on two things there. The first one is, I think of all, maybe all the sentences you've ever written, the one that I find myself referencing the most, including when we teach difficult conversations here, is, "The story I'm making up is..." I, I think about this all the time. Whenever I go to give someone some feedback or, you know, raise an issue that might be a little bit touchy or contentious, like, okay, the story I'm making up is... Can you just walk us through how to apply that?

Brené Brown 22:12 I think that our brain is wired for story. We know that. That's not, like, an advertisement. It's, like, literally wired for narrative. It's how we've taught and communicated since the beginning of human history. When something hard happens, because our brain is wired for survival above all things, it l- it looks to understand what's happening with a story, and the brain, the brain does not like a messy story. The brain likes a very clear story. Bad guy, good guy. Dangerous, safe. On your side, against you. So the minute you can give your brain a story that has the bad guy who's against you and what's dangerous, you're literally rewarded chemically with more calm. So let's say Adam and I are in a meeting, and I work for Adam, and we walk out of the meeting and I say, "Great meeting. I'll see you this afternoon." And Adam looks at me and goes, "What the fuck?" And just walks away. How many of you would be hooked by that if that was your boss? Like, triggered.

Adam Grant 23:19 Oh.

Brené Brown 23:19 Like, oh, shit. And so immediately what the brain says is, "What's happening? What's happening? What's happening?" And the way it u- normally plays out is, "Oh my God, I pissed him off. I did something in that meeting I should not have s-- I, I should have not, um, shared those sales numbers with a client. Oh my God, what's going on?" How many times a day do you think that happens in organizations?

Speaker 23:41 A lot.

Brené Brown 23:42 A lot. And so what we found, that fourth, that fourth quality of courage, you know, the ability to rise, the ability to reset, what those folks had in common more than anything was the ability to check the stories they were making up. And so the first question you ask is, do I know what's happening and do I have enough data? And let me tell you, you're neu- you're neurobiolo- you're-- neurobiologically they're like, "We don't give a shit. Give us a story. Tell us who's, who, tell us who is against us." Um, and so what would happen if I went into my office and I thought, "Oh, God- I don't know what's going on. That was pretty scary. I need to calm down. For me personally, I know I'll need to walk. I'll, I'll loop the parking lot. I'll walk the office. Okay. [knocking] "Hey, Adam, do you have a sec?"

Adam Grant 24:36 Yeah.

Brené Brown 24:36 "When we were leaving the, uh, the meeting today and I said, 'Have a great day,' you looked at me and you were like, 'What the fuck?' And the story I'm making up is something happened in that meeting that really pissed you off, and I just wanna check in with you, and if we've got something to clean up, I'd love the opportunity to clean it up." And then Adam looks at me and said, "Oh my God, that meeting was scheduled to end at 10:00. We went to 11:15. I have Zumba every Thursday at 10:30."

Adam Grant 25:02 [laughs]

Brené Brown 25:02 "What the fuck? Why were these meetings going so late?"

Adam Grant 25:05 [laughs]

Brené Brown 25:06 Yes or no? Yes. And you're like, "Wait, w- what about the part where I'm the center of your world?"

Adam Grant 25:14 [laughs]

Brené Brown 25:15 [laughs] "And everything you do and say is about me," you know? And so be really honest here, which y- you are actually never anything but, uh, in my experience, to be honest, which is kind of a pain in the ass sometimes. Um-

Adam Grant 25:27 Thank you.

Brené Brown 25:27 Yeah, you're welcome. Um, that, that, that compliment he accepted. As some- as a leader who works for you, I knock on your door and say, "Here's the story I'm making up. Do we have something to clean up?" Do you respect me more or less?

Adam Grant 25:38 More.

Brené Brown 25:39 Trust me more or less?

Adam Grant 25:40 More, because I know that if there's ever an issue between us, you're gonna bring it to me, as opposed to me wondering what you're thinking, but not repeating or maybe gossiping about behind my back.

Brené Brown 25:51 Yeah.

Adam Grant 25:52 This reminds me of something I've been so curious about for a long time and never asked you, which is sometimes I find it helpful to go into a conversation like that when I, when I've made up the story, and I'm worried about how it's gonna go, and just say to the person, "I'm actually afraid to have this conversation with you." And I've found that enormously helpful in lowering their, their defenses. Um, and I'd love to hear your explanation of why.

Brené Brown 26:17 It's like walking in, "Hey, good to see you," vulnerability card. "I'm a little anxious about talking to you about this, but you're important to me and this is important to me." And I think it's honest and authentic, and it's showing your hum- you're leading with your humanity. You're not leading with your prosecutor. You know, you're not leading with any of your friends, right? You're just leading with humanity.

Adam Grant 26:45 That tracks for me. I think the other thing that sometimes happens is, like, the other person immediately wants to disown being terrifying.

Brené Brown 26:52 Yeah.

Adam Grant 26:53 Like, "You can't, you shouldn't be afraid of me. You can tell me anything."

Brené Brown 26:56 Yeah, yeah. Right. Right.

Adam Grant 26:56 And they, they, they actually have to prove that they're open, even if they weren't before.

Brené Brown 27:00 That's when it gets a little trickier, yeah.

Adam Grant 27:02 Yeah, and then I'm like, "Wait, no, no, I don't want this to be manipulative. I'm just trying to, I'm trying to level with you that this is a hard conversation for me to have."

Brené Brown 27:08 "That's why I love the story I'm telling myself right now," or just say, "I'm anxious about having this conversation with you, but it's important to me." If you say scared, you could push a certain personality type into defensiveness, because what they, what they could g- go is, "Jesus, you think I'm an asshole?" "Yes."

Adam Grant 27:32 [laughs]

Brené Brown 27:32 [laughs] Um, and they could just derail you. So I think part of this is the self-awareness and the relational awareness of knowing what is your relationship with this person.

Adam Grant 27:42 That's helpful. Thank you. Okay. I wanna, um, I wanna follow up on one other thing that struck me as you were talking about, um, turning values into behaviors.

Brené Brown 27:49 Yeah.

Adam Grant 27:50 Which is, I think you've just given us a clue to a different way of living our values than I've always thought about it. I've always had people, like I've seen people, like, make a list of their values and then okay, like let's write down and talk through what does it look like to uphold them, what does it look like to violate them? And there's something both overly cerebral about that, and also it's, it's under-grounded in people's day-to-day experience. And I think what I just heard you tell me is you just, you kind of do a mini qualitative study of yourself. You observe, like take the next week or two, and think about the moments where you felt like, "That wasn't me."

Brené Brown 28:28 Yes.

Adam Grant 28:28 Or, "I failed at courage today."

Brené Brown 28:30 Yes.

Adam Grant 28:31 And then build the list from the ground up.

Brené Brown 28:33 Yes.

Adam Grant 28:34 I love this idea.

Brené Brown 28:35 Yes, because we ask two questions: Share a time when you were outside of your values and what it felt like in your body. Share a time when you were in your values and what it felt like in your v- in your body. And so one of the things that's really interesting is the whole disembodiment thing, that we are just not connected to our bodies, is also part of strong ground. Like, we gotta get reconnected. If I was hiring for one quality, it would be self-awareness, and I don't think you can have deep self-awareness if you are, if you're disembodied, because a lot of your self-awareness comes from your body. Like, they call them feelings because that's where they happen first, right? In, they, you feel them. And one thing that you're really, we see a lot in the research from when we collect, after we take people through Dare to Lead and they talk about all the exercises, is... And this is like, I would not say this is empirical, I would just say this is anecdotal, is in my values, very difficult, but in some way energy-giving. Outside of my values, on the surface easier, but absolutely depleting. Does that make sense to you? The paradox of this was easier to piss and moan about somebody than to talk to them, but left me felt, feeling hollowed out, versus I had to have a hard conversation. I had to practice it for two hours with my coach. I didn't sleep the night before. But when it was done, I had more energy, and I think that's about alignment.

Adam Grant 30:08 Excellent. Okay, you ready for a lightning round?

Brené Brown 30:10 Yeah, yeah.

Adam Grant 30:11 All right. Who's at your dream dinner party, alive or dead?

Brené Brown 30:16 Um, my mom, my grandmother, and my immediate family.

Adam Grant 30:21 Wow. Everyone always picks celebrities.

Brené Brown 30:25 Oh, don't give a shit. No.

Adam Grant 30:28 All right. Worst career advice you've ever gotten

Brené Brown 30:30 Um, I'm gonna talk about a subject we both hate, executive presence. I don't like executive presence because I don't know what it means, the research feels unclear, and there are a lot of people in navy suits with red ties that command attention are saying jack shit. Um

Adam Grant 30:46 [laughs]

Speaker 30:47 [laughs]

Brené Brown 30:49 Or, or worse, um, and there are a lot of really quiet people who don't look like a lot of the people in navy suits with red ties whose brilliance we all need.

Speaker 31:02 [applause]

Brené Brown 31:02 So I texted him and I said, "I'm getting ready to take on, uh, executive presence in this book. Should I do it or not?" And I got the three dots on the iPhone.

Speaker 31:15 [laughs]

Brené Brown 31:16 And then what did you text back?

Adam Grant 31:18 I, I, I think I texted back something to the effect of, uh, "Yes. Can you do a smack down of charisma too? Because they're both cover for discriminating against women and introverts."

Brené Brown 31:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 31:29 [laughs]

Brené Brown 31:29 And I was like, "Let's go."

Speaker 31:30 [applause]

Brené Brown 31:31 As the only woman at the table for a long time early in my career, I have zero interest in looking, acting, behaving like the people who built the tables that I'm not supposed to be at.

Speaker 31:48 [applause]

Brené Brown 31:49 Yeah. None.

Adam Grant 31:53 What is something you've changed your mind about lately?

Brené Brown 31:55 I can get really ramped up about my founder energy and get really proud of it. Like, yeah, fuck you, I'm gonna cha- I'm gonna pick all the fonts. I'm gonna check all the emails.

Adam Grant 32:07 [laughs]

Speaker 32:09 [laughs]

Brené Brown 32:10 And then I'm gonna cry for six hours, get in a fight with my husband, and not get out of bed, because I'm gonna check all the emails and pick all the fonts. And so I'm really changing my mind about where those lines exist.

Adam Grant 32:30 It sounds like you should read a book called The Gifts of Imperfection.

Speaker 32:33 [laughs]

Brené Brown 32:35 And then I'm gonna rethink our friendship.

Adam Grant 32:38 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 32:39 [laughs]

Adam Grant 32:39 Ouch.

Brené Brown 32:39 I-

Adam Grant 32:39 No, I, I actually think it needs a sequel about delegation and micromanagement and control, which I think is an extension of perfectionism.

Brené Brown 32:47 It is, and the thing that I wrote myself... Like, have you ever written a new thing and then you're like, "Eat the page yourself, dumbass."

Adam Grant 32:55 [laughs]

Brené Brown 32:55 Like, like, "Tear this page out and just eat the page you wrote." Um.

Adam Grant 33:00 [laughs] No, I've never thought about it that way.

Speaker 33:03 [laughs]

Adam Grant 33:04 But in, in tech they call it eating your own dog food, right?

Brené Brown 33:06 Is that... I don't know.

Adam Grant 33:07 Yeah. Uh, you, you have to use the program that you coded, right, and then see if it works.

Brené Brown 33:11 Oh, got it. Okay.

Adam Grant 33:12 Yeah.

Brené Brown 33:12 Yeah. Um, that productive challenge is a function of trust. Micromanagement is a function of distrust, and I'm rethinking where I'm being productive in my challenging with my team and where I'm not trusting. And what I'm learning is I'm not trusting because I am not doing a good job painfully Dumbledore pulling the context that people need to do their jobs out of my brain, because it's really ti- it's exhausting for me to... I have 1,000 things in my brain about right now, tomorrow, five years, three years. I have all this, like, crazy stuff in my brain as a founder and then I don't share the context of it, and people expect people, you know... Like, there's a... I, I actually eat a chapter, 'cause there's a whole chapter called-

Adam Grant 34:15 [laughs]

Brené Brown 34:16 ... Mission Critical? Question mark. And the answer is mission clarity.

Adam Grant 34:21 Hm.

Brené Brown 34:22 And that means everybody on your team in your organization should be able to draw a straight line from what they're doing to the larger context in the organization they can't see every day. And that's time and discipline.

Adam Grant 34:37 It, it also sounds like, I mean, this is a classic founder challenge, right? You're blurring the line between founder and owner. Just because-

Brené Brown 34:45 No more

Adam Grant 34:45 ... just because you're a founder doesn't mean you have to own everything.

Brené Brown 34:50 Like, I don't, it's not even computing.

Speaker 34:53 [laughs]

Adam Grant 34:54 [laughs] I mean, you can, you can create something and then just hand it off to other people, right? [laughs]

Brené Brown 35:01 Yes, I can do that. Yes, I do do that. Yes, I have very capable people. I am not good in fear, and it is... and I'm not a good public person. I never wanted to be a public person. And so I can get very fearful and scarcity based. Yeah. And then I'm not good in those places.

Adam Grant 35:28 Welcome to the club.

Brené Brown 35:29 Yeah.

Adam Grant 35:30 If you were dropped back to your freshman year of college, with all the knowledge and wisdom you've accumulated since then, what would be the first thing you would change?

Brené Brown 35:38 I would just tell myself that there's no shame in this traditional path not being my path. 'Cause I graduated with my undergrad at 29. You know, I got kicked out of school three times. I hitchhiked. I bartended. I did a lot of things where I learned way more about empathy than studying it. And I think I would just look back and say, "Nothing wasted."

Adam Grant 36:06 Wow.

Brené Brown 36:07 Yeah.

Adam Grant 36:08 How do you balance setting boundaries versus always being there for a friend or even someone who takes advantage of your kindness?

Brené Brown 36:15 Well, I think there's two different groups of people, 'cause I don't think friends take advantage of our kindness, and I think you really have to start with some self-examination. But I think for a long time, I thought the only value I brought to relationships was the problem solver, the fixer, the taking care of things. I'm the oldest daughter of four, you know, like, I have all that set up. And so I think it starts with it's really good, despite what a lot of weird people are saying right now, it's really good to be an empathetic person. One, make sure that that's cognitive empathy, not affective empathy, meaning you don't want to feel what everyone feels. That's a recipe for disaster and burnout. And it's also the word that I would call it as someone, I've been sober for 28 years, we would call it enmeshment. This is not empathy because I don't know where I end and you begin. So I would really do a lot of self-reflecting around a relationship, a good friendship, love, friendship, whatever is reciprocal. And if you primarily play a role where you're caregiving and taking care of folks, then that's not about the people you're hanging out with. That's hanging out with yourself a little bit and figuring out that's not the only value you bring.

Adam Grant 37:38 All right. I have some more audience questions for you.

Brené Brown 37:40 Okay. Let's do it.

Adam Grant 37:41 Okay. This one I'm going to edit a little bit. The question says, "The concept of vulnerability has become increasingly popular in the business world." I will say because of you, Brené, you have popularized vulnerability. And the question is, do you find that there's an evolving, um, meaning of it? Has it changed since you gave your first TED Talk?

Brené Brown 37:59 I don't, I don't, it's... Look, just because the concept is more popular doesn't mean the behavior is more popular.

Adam Grant 38:07 [laughs]

Brené Brown 38:07 Let's start there. Everybody's afraid. We're all afraid all the time. Like, and most, and fear can be a helpful thing, right? What gets in the way of courage is armor. How do we self-protect when we're in fear? What do we turn to? What armor do we put on? I've already said, like, for me, micromanaging, micromanaging, perfectionism. I get overly decisive. "No, close that down. Shut that. Move her over here. No, uh-uh, hire him." And then I'm like, "Oh, shit, I think I'm scared." And then I'm like, "Let's not do those things." And my team's like, "We don't write anything down when you're like this."

Adam Grant 38:44 [laughs]

Brené Brown 38:45 Um, and you can get good performance using fear and shitty behavior for a very short amount of time. But then fear has a very short shelf life because our nervous systems can't handle it for a long period of time, right? So to me, vulnerability hasn't changed. There are more people talking about it, growing people, a growing number of people working at it, and an increased of number of, an increased number of people giving it lip service because it has some popularity, which takes five seconds to see through. Like, I see dead people. Like, I see your fake vulnerability.

Adam Grant 39:34 Brené, thank you. It's always a joy to learn from you.

Brené Brown 39:37 All right. Thanks, y'all.

Adam Grant 39:38 Thank you.

Brené Brown 39:39 Thank you. [upbeat music]