The Ku Klux Klan is one of the tightest-knit White supremacist groups in America—once someone joins, they’re usually in for life. But since the 1980s, over 200 members have renounced their affiliation, and all give credit to the same man: a Black jazz musician named Daryl Davis. In this episode, Adam is joined by Daryl and Jeff Schoep, a former leader of the largest neo-Nazi group in the US whose life and mind were changed by meeting and befriending Daryl. They discuss techniques for challenging ignorance and prejudice, analyze the cognitive dissonance experienced by members of extremist groups, and reflect on the conversations with Daryl that helped Jeff think again. They also explore the limits of empathy and curiosity.
Host & Guest
Adam Grant (Instagram: @adamgrant | LinkedIn: @adammgrant | Website: https://adamgrant.net/)
Daryl Davis (Instagram: @realdaryldavis | Website: https://www.daryldavis.com/)
Jeff Schoep (Instagram: @jeff_schoep | Website: https://jeffschoep.com/)
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Perception as personal reality—and why direct confrontation backfires
AGAdam Grant
Uh, one's perception is one's reality, and that is so indeed true. Whatever somebody perceives is their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. You cannot change anybody's reality. And if you try to change their reality, you're gonna get pushback. You're gonna get resistance. So if you want to affect change on somebody's reality, don't-- It's counterintuitive, but don't attack their reality. Offer them
0:30 – 0:53
Changing minds indirectly: offer better perceptions instead of attacking beliefs
AGAdam Grant
a better perception or perceptions, plural. And if they resonate with one of your pers- uh, perspectives or perceptions, you have planted the seed, and it ruminates in their mind if it causes a cognitive dissonance, and they try to find out why. And the next thing you know, it's the introspection that does, "Oh, you know what? Maybe I better change my path."
Episode duration: 0:53
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