Re:Thinking with Adam GrantHow to raise a new generation of readers with Shannon Hale | ReThinking with Adam Grant
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:29
Validating every kind of reading (audiobooks, fanfic, graphic novels, “no shame” reading)
Shannon Hale opens with a clear philosophy: reading counts in many forms, and shaming kids for not liking “canonical” books backfires. She argues that the goal is to help young people discover what they genuinely enjoy so they can build a lifelong reading identity.
- •“All reading is reading”: audiobooks, phone reading, fan fiction all count
- •Shame and gatekeeping (e.g., forcing classics) can push kids away from reading
- •Not every book is for every reader; disliking classics doesn’t make you “not a reader”
- •Finding personal fit matters more than following prestige lists
- 0:29 – 1:49
How The Princess in Black hooked a young reader (and a family)
Adam Grant and his daughter Joanna share how The Princess in Black became a family ritual—then a solo obsession as Joanna raced ahead through the series. Shannon reflects on why the superhero-princess-ninja blend resonated and how representation can expand who feels invited into stories.
- •Family read-aloud tradition turns into independent binge-reading
- •The “princess + ninja + superhero” mashup feels rare and exciting
- •Female superhero protagonist as an important point of representation
- •Writing from real kid-energy: imaginative play, costumes, and swords
- 1:49 – 2:45
Becoming a writer: early imagination, connection, and years of practice
Shannon traces her origin story as a storyteller, from inventing games as a child to discovering in fourth grade that writing could create connection. She emphasizes that writing is a craft developed over time, not an instant talent.
- •Early drive to invent stories and lead imaginative play
- •A teacher sparks the realization that writing enables sharing and connection
- •Writing as a way to be seen and understood
- •Declaring “I want to be a writer” at 10; first publication at 29
- 2:45 – 5:00
Rejection as a constant: resilience, timing, and the “rejection-letter scroll”
The conversation turns to rejection—how painful it is early on and how it becomes part of a creative life even after major success. Shannon shares her strategy of saving rejection letters to teach kids that “no” often means wrong time or wrong fit, not lack of worth.
- •Rejection continues even after 50 books and decades of publishing
- •Reframing rejection as “not here, not now,” not “you’re worthless”
- •Early realism: waiting to submit until her craft improved
- •Laminated rejection letters as a teaching tool for students
- 5:00 – 6:57
Getting older kids (and adults) back into reading: choice, access, and graphic novels
Asked how to revive reading habits, Shannon argues for matching books to readers rather than prescribing taste. She describes turning to graphic novels to serve visual learners and pushes back against the idea that comics “aren’t real books.”
- •Everyone can be a reader with the right book match
- •Graphic novels as accessibility—especially for visual learners
- •Adults’ “not real books” messaging discourages engagement
- •Validating preferences increases the likelihood kids keep reading
- 6:57 – 8:35
Reading decline and how to nurture new readers: libraries, librarians, and parent modeling
Adam and Joanna share worrying statistics about declining leisure reading and fewer parents reading to toddlers. Shannon’s key prescription is to lean on libraries and let kids own their reading choices, while adults reconnect with what they loved reading as children.
- •Use the library; children’s librarians are powerful guides
- •Give kids library cards early to put choice in their hands
- •Parents’ fear and intimidation around reading can transmit to kids
- •Adults should revisit what they loved at age 10 to rekindle joy
- 8:35 – 10:55
Why school can kill the joy: classics, compliance, and losing (then reclaiming) reading love
Joanna, Shannon, and Adam describe how required “great books” can turn reading into a chore and signal that “mature” reading must be grim and male-dominated. Shannon shares her own experience falling out of love with reading and then giving herself permission to return to genres she enjoyed.
- •Assigned reading can imply that fun genres are something you “grow out of”
- •High school lists often skew toward tragedies and dead male authors
- •Reading becomes a marker of compliance rather than enjoyment
- •Reclaiming reading begins with permission to read what you like
- 10:55 – 13:33
Why teachers stick with joyless books: parent pressure, fear, and book bans
Adam challenges the persistence of forced classics and the lack of choice in curricula. Shannon argues that teachers often keep “safe” legacy titles to avoid parent backlash, while contemporary YA faces scrutiny and censorship despite often being more age-appropriate.
- •Curriculum inertia often stems from parents’ comfort with familiar titles
- •Parents’ fear leads to intense content policing of newer books
- •Book banning creates risk and stress for teachers and librarians
- •Support and trust for educators is necessary to modernize reading lists
- 13:33 – 16:31
Let teens judge the canon: making “great books” debatable and purpose-driven
Joanna describes a class practice of evaluating whether assigned books deserve their status, and Shannon celebrates giving teens permission to call books “terrible.” They reframe English class as training in critical thinking and human understanding—not merely cultural literacy of a fixed canon.
- •Student voice: debating whether texts should remain in the curriculum
- •Classics can feel “sainted,” leaving no room for critique
- •English class as critical thinking + studying human experience through story
- •Some works (e.g., Shakespeare) may work better performed than dissected
- 16:31 – 22:37
Gendered reading double standards: boys discouraged from stories about girls
Shannon explains how her book Princess Academy was marketed “for girls,” even though boys enjoyed it once they tried it. She outlines the cultural signals that make boys feel shame for empathizing with girls—and why that empathy is socially powerful.
- •Marketing labels and school messaging steer boys away from girl-led stories
- •Teachers’ classroom experiences show boys often like “girl” books once read
- •Cultural hierarchy: masculine coded as superior, feminine as inferior
- •Discouraging boys’ empathy for girls protects power dynamics
- 22:37 – 28:30
Empathy changes behavior: what books can do that other media often can’t
Adam and Shannon explore why books provoke stronger identity-level empathy than movies: readers inhabit a character rather than observing them. Shannon connects this to why certain groups try to restrict books—because narratives shape who we see as fully human.
- •Example from Speak: a boy rethinks victim-blaming after reading a girl’s story
- •Books create immersive “living another life” experiences in the brain
- •Many challenged books are by/about women, LGBTQ people, and people of color
- •Censorship can be an attempt to limit empathy and control narratives
- 28:30 – 30:19
Memoir, vulnerability, and the magic of being seen (the Friend series impact)
Shannon recounts writing her graphic memoirs with doubt and vulnerability, then witnessing kids embrace the honesty adults found “too heavy.” She argues that specificity becomes universal and that books validate readers’ inner experiences in uniquely powerful ways.
- •Writing memoir despite the internal voice saying “no one cares”
- •Adults often underestimate kids’ capacity for emotional truth
- •Kids rereading the book dozens of times as a signal of recognition/relief
- •Stories validate self-understanding and expand understanding of others
- 30:19 – 32:38
Parenting without enmeshment: compassion that builds resilience
Adam raises Brené Brown’s concept of enmeshment—parents absorbing children’s setbacks as personal injuries. Shannon distinguishes empathy from getting lost in a child’s emotions, emphasizing the parent’s role as a steady, supportive leader.
- •Enmeshment can block kids from developing resilience and perspective
- •Empathy/compassion ≠ experiencing the child’s emotions as your own
- •Parents can be present with pain while staying grounded
- •Parenting as “sturdy leadership” even when it’s difficult
- 32:38 – 37:50
Writing your story + lightning round: journals, bad art, snacks, and constant rethinking
Shannon offers advice for aspiring writers: keep journals, don’t rush memoir publication, and create for fun—especially as AI threatens to replace creative practice. The episode closes with a playful lightning round on writing advice, rewards, dream dinner guests, and abandoning binary thinking.
- •Keep a journal; perspective and distance matter before publishing memoir
- •Write for fun (fan fiction included); encourage experimentation and “bad art”
- •AI as a risk to developing creativity—protect the practice of making
- •Lightning round: “only write what you know” is bad advice; snacks as rewards; rethinking binaries into spectrums
