Re:Thinking with Adam GrantHow to raise a new generation of readers with Shannon Hale | ReThinking with Adam Grant
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
35 min read · 7,190 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Validating every kind of reading (audiobooks, fanfic, graphic novels, “no shame” reading)
- SHShannon Hale
All reading is reading. Audiobooks are reading. Reading fan fiction on your phone is reading. Validating all forms of reading instead of like shaming kids into ha- having to care about Moby Dick. You're still a reader if you don't like Moby Dick. Most adults don't like Moby Dick. Let's just be honest about it. You're still a reader if you don't like most books, and allowing yourself to find what you do like. [upbeat music]
- 0:29 – 1:49
How The Princess in Black hooked a young reader (and a family)
- AGAdam Grant
Shannon, what a treat to meet you.
- SHShannon Hale
Great to meet you too, Adam. Thank you.
- AGAdam Grant
Okay, so I, I, I did the math. I think The Princess in Black came out when Joanna was six. I remember the day it arrived, uh, my wife Allison and I brought it up to her room, and we opened it, and we ended up reading the book out loud together, taking turns. And so of course, we immediately pre-ordered every subsequent book in the series, only Joanna sped ahead without telling us. And when it [laughs] came time to read the second book, uh, sh- we were, we were going through out loud, and we found out partway through that she had already read it completely.
- JGJoanna Grant
Yeah, that sounds about right. I remember reading all of the books, like as soon as I got home from wherever I was. Every time I saw that a n- a new one was out, I would be so excited to pick it up. Um, and there was just, I, it, you wouldn't find a lot of books like it. You know, the combination of like the ninja and the princess, it was so great, and it, it was, it was just so unique and such a special, you know, way to spend time with my parents and to get into reading.
- SHShannon Hale
Oh, it makes me so happy.
- AGAdam Grant
Also, to have a female protagonist who's a superhero, that was a rare find.
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah, we've got a house full of superheroes, so it was, it was pretty natural for us, you know, watching our kids be wearing princess dresses while picking up foam swords to attack monsters. It, it was a no-brainer.
- 1:49 – 2:45
Becoming a writer: early imagination, connection, and years of practice
- AGAdam Grant
Love it. So how did you become a writer, Shannon?
- SHShannon Hale
I was always making up stories. I was the kid in my friend group who was making up the games to get other people to play. And then in fourth grade, I had a teacher, Mrs. Spackman, who started us writing stories and poems, and it was the first time I was like, "Oh, my word, all this stuff in my head, if I write it down into a story, then I can share it." 'Cause stories are about connection, right? I longed for connection. I longed for friendship. I longed, like that human need to be seen as you are. I couldn't seem to explain all the kinda splendor and wonder inside of me. And I started writing stories, and they weren't great. [laughs] It turns out that you like have to... It's a skill that I had to work on to get better at so that I could use that skill to express what was inside of me. But for whatever reason, I was motivated, um, and just, it was, I, I, I declared I wanted to be a writer when I was 10, and I published my first thing when I was 29. It took a long time.
- 2:45 – 5:00
Rejection as a constant: resilience, timing, and the “rejection-letter scroll”
- AGAdam Grant
Wow. So we, we read that when you were doing your master's in creative writing, you wrote a lot of short stories and faced a lot of rejection.
- SHShannon Hale
Yes, just so much rejection, and I still get rejected. To, to be clear, I've published 50 books. I've been publishing now for 22 or 3 years, and I still get rejected. Um, it hurts so much at the beginning, and then you start to realize, "Oh, okay, uh, rejection is really saying not that you're worthless, but this is not right time, not right place. Not here, not now." I actually didn't try to s- get things published at the beginning. I think I was savvy enough at least to realize that I was not great yet. And so when I did start trying to get published, I had been writing for so many years and, you know, of course, I don't just write things once. I revise and revise over and over again. So it was a bit of a shock when I was finally like, "Now I'm ready," and the world was like, "No, you're not." [laughs] And just for like two years, it was back before we were emailing, so we were, I was literally mailing in manuscripts and then getting letters in the mail, um, saying, "No, no, no." I kept... Someone advised me so wisely to keep my rejection letters, and now I, I laminated them into a long roll that I could unroll at school visits and show kids, you know, "This is the rejection. This is what rejection looked like before I ever gotten acceptance." And many of those things never were published, but my very first novel is called The Goose Girl. It was rejected by everybody, the who's who of, of young adult publishers. And eventually, when it was published with, by a new publisher at the time, uh, that year, it was voted by teens across the US as one of their top 10 favorite books of the year. It won a major award, and all these decades later, I still meet people everywhere I go, every state I go that are, that tell me it's their favorite book of all time, and they reread it every year. And for me, that is a sign, again, that the rejection was not about, it wasn't that the book wasn't good enough. It just was wrong, wrong time, wrong place, wrong people. And while I'm waiting to find the right time for that, I'm writing something else.
- 5:00 – 6:57
Getting older kids (and adults) back into reading: choice, access, and graphic novels
- JGJoanna Grant
The, the roll of rejection letters, that, that might be the best way I've ever heard to present yourself to a group of students. I love that so much. Um, that, that reminds me of the rejection that a lot of students face, um, you know, in the college process, in high school, and everything. Um, and I think unfortunately, it makes me so sad, there's definitely been a decline in reading, um, as kids get older. So do you have any, um, ways to get older kids, um, maybe high schoolers, um, or even adults back into reading?
- SHShannon Hale
I am so passionate about the idea that everybody is a reader, and it's finding the right books for you. I think sometimes we do a disservice to kids by trying to tell them what they're supposed to like or supposed to be interested in. Um, one reason why I started getting into graphic novels is because I was meeting kids in the, the early and mid-aughts that, uh, they weren't, they were not the right audience for my 380-page fantasy novel. And at the time, children's book publishers were not, uh, were not publishing comics and graphic novels. And, and I was desperate to find more books for The visual learners. Um, graphic novels now are the fastest-growing segment of children's literature, and I think s- they're so accessible to so many kids, but what comes with that is a lot of adults who mean well, but say, "Oh, those are not real books." And when you're shaming a kid for what they're interested in, they're gonna be less interested in pursuing that. So I think acknowledging, first of all, that all reading is reading, audiobooks are reading, reading fan fiction on your phone is reading. Validating all forms of reading, instead of, like, shaming kids into hav- having to care about Moby Dick. You're still a reader if you don't like Moby Dick. Most adults don't like Moby Dick. Let's just be honest about it. Not every book is for everybody. You're still a reader if you don't like most books, and allowing yourself to find what you do like.
- 6:57 – 8:35
Reading decline and how to nurture new readers: libraries, librarians, and parent modeling
- AGAdam Grant
That definitely resonates, and I guess, Shannon, just to, to pick up on, on what Joanna was asking about, I've become increasingly concerned that the love of reading is an endangered species. Uh, looking at recent stats, 16% of Americans do regular leisure reading, which is down from 28% in 2003. And then I just came across a survey in the UK showing that only 41% of parents read daily to their toddlers, which is down from 64% in 2012.
- JGJoanna Grant
It, it makes me so, so sad to hear that kids aren't even getting exposure to books as much now. We gotta talk to the expert. Do you have any ways to nurture a new reader?
- SHShannon Hale
Yes. I would say my number one piece of advice for parents is utilize your library. Libraries are the best. Children's librarians are, like, the best humans on Earth. And getting your kid their own library card as soon as they're old enough and putting the choice in their hands is a way to help them take control of their own reading life. I think a lot of parents are intimidated to read to their kids. They're f- sometimes they're afraid they're not smart enough, um, that they're not doing it right. Um, there's a lot of fear with parents around reading. And I would say to the parents, um, can you remember what you loved to read when you were 10? Go back to that place and see if you can re-nurture the love of reading in your own self. Go to a librarian and be like, "This is what I liked when I was 10. Can you re- [laughs] help me find a book that I might like?" Joanna, what did you love to read when you were 10? Like, what was your passion at that age?
- 8:35 – 10:55
Why school can kill the joy: classics, compliance, and losing (then reclaiming) reading love
- JGJoanna Grant
I got super into a lot of graphic novels then. Um, I was really into art, so I was like, "I have to combine, you know, my love of reading and my love of drawing." You'd, you do that a lot when you're younger, um, around that age, and then as soon as you hit high school, it's like, like you said, Moby Dick and all of those-
- SHShannon Hale
[sighs]
- JGJoanna Grant
... those kinds of books that are maybe a little bit outdated. Like, I feel like a lot of what I read in high school now is, you know, Shakespeare, which of course I love Shakespeare. He's great, but [laughs] any, you know, it, there, there definitely needs to be more exposure to different genres.
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah.
- JGJoanna Grant
And I think you've been a big part of exposing-
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah
- JGJoanna Grant
... kids to that.
- SHShannon Hale
So, so everything you're saying, Joanna, just, it resonates so much with me. I wanted to be a writer when, when, when I was 10, and I loved to read. And then by the time I got into high school, all of the things we were assigned in high school were, had no genre. It was all tragedies and books written mostly, almost entirely by men, and by men who are now dead. So it, it, it was a subtle way, like no one told my daughter princesses can't wear black. No one told me that in order to be a, a smart grown-up, you have to only read things that are miserable and sad. [laughs] But that's still the information that I absorbed based on what we were assigned. I was like, "There's no more s- fantasy and science fiction? There's no humor? Those things are things you have to grow out of?" And I literally fell out of love with reading for several years. When I was in college, I remember I was in a bookstore, and my friend was running his fingers along the spines of books, and he was, like, taking them out and smelling them, and he said, "Oh, don't you love books?" And I had this epiphany that I was like, "No, I don't." And it, it made me so sad. It was... And I had to look back and be like, "How did this happen? How did I fall out of love?" It's because it became a chore, and I thought in order to be smart and mature, I ha- I had to, like, almost read things that I didn't like. So I started giving myself permission to read things again that I did like.
- AGAdam Grant
That strikes a chord for me, Shannon. I was a kid who loved reading probably more than anything else. Uh, I think most of my friends were books growing up, and I remember, like Joanna was describing, getting into high school and hating reading. Hating it. Um, I remember, you know, sort of being force-fed the classics, and it was like the equivalent of, of sh- somebody shoving broccoli down my throat and telling me, "You're not gonna like it, but this is what eating is all about."
- SHShannon Hale
Yes.
- 10:55 – 13:33
Why teachers stick with joyless books: parent pressure, fear, and book bans
- AGAdam Grant
And I don't, I don't understand why teachers are still doing that. Haven't, haven't we learned that the best way to nurture intrinsic motivation is to provide students with a sense of free choice? Whether that's, you know, the class votes on novels from a category, or whether that's each student gets to pick a book that they wanna read and present to the class. I don't wanna pigeonhole all teachers, but why do you think so many teachers are so attached to books that just suck the joy [laughs] out of reading?
- SHShannon Hale
Yes. It's because of parents are, are so afraid of books, um, that if you change the curriculum to include books that weren't on the same ones that the parents read, then they look at them so closely and they start to object to the content. The truth is that the stuff that I read was the same stuff that my parents read, and it, and the stuff I was assigned in school was way more adult and had way more, [laughs] um, you know, adult content, so to speak, in it than the young adult books that are being banned right now. But because they're on those old lists and parents are familiar with them, um, they feel safer with them for some reason. And the book banning, of course, is just, is completely out of control. I'm in Utah. We're the fourth worst state in the nation for book banning. Um, there's so much fear around books, which is really misguided. I think a book is a safe way to engage with, uh, mature concepts. Um, it's a compassionate way to engage with mature concepts, and it actually protects kids, um, by giving them more information and understanding and resources than not reading it. But I wish, I wish we could get out of reading the same books over and over again. There are so many incredible books that are age-appropriate for teens and relatable to teens in lots of different genres with beautiful writing, award-winning, gorgeous stories, um, that would serve them so much better. But, but parents have to get on board and trust the teachers and librarians to make those choices.
- AGAdam Grant
Wait, so if... Shannon, if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is that teachers don't want to inflict terrible books on kids, but they're forced to because parents are already comfortable with them?
- SHShannon Hale
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
Yikes.
- SHShannon Hale
Yes. I mean, of course, there are many teachers, so I'm sure there's many different opinions, but the ones I've talked to, yes. And many teachers are, who are already underpaid and overworked, are literally, in some states, taking their lives into their own hands by teaching books that they feel passionate about, that they think that, that will engage the kids and will help the kids navigate these tricky teen years. Teachers are [laughs] working so hard, and we could do so much better at supporting them.
- 13:33 – 16:31
Let teens judge the canon: making “great books” debatable and purpose-driven
- JGJoanna Grant
I wanted to go back to what you said about, um, having the kids choose their own books and maybe voting on the genres. I love that idea. Um, my English class this year, the class is called Great Books, and, um, the curriculum is set. You know, we're reading Hamlet, Huck Finn, um, 1984, and, um, we also get to choose one independent reading book for the semester. Um, but something that I think the class has done so well, after we finish every book, or even if, after, you know, we finish a scene in Hamlet, um, we discuss, "Do you think this was a great book? Do we think, do we think we sh- it should be used again?" Even if they're not gonna... Even if we agree it might not, it shouldn't be used again. It might be used again. But, um, it's been so much fun th- saying, "This is a terrible book. I, it shouldn't be taught anymore," or, "I thought it was really interesting because I know you think it's not relevant today, but it really is." So I think that's something that should totally be done in other classes.
- SHShannon Hale
I love when you empower teens to be able to say, "This is terrible." You should be able to say that. That's part of the problem with teaching the classics, I think, because they're already sainted, and it doesn't give the reader room to come and say, "But wait a minute, [laughs] is this actually great?" And it all comes back to, what is the purpose of story anyway? What is the purpose of English class? For me, it's not a literature class necessarily where you have to know certain great works so that you're, when South Park makes fun of Scarlet Letter, you are in on the joke. I mean, that's nice, but that's not really the purpose of it. The purpose is critical thinking and engaging with stories in order to learn critical thinking, and it's also the study of the human experience. Stories don't tell us how to be. Um, they give us a really deep and empathetic way to get inside of a character and live a different life, and that, that kind of experience cannot be duplicated in any other way. But so the, the books that we choose are, are really important, and by keeping choosing the same books over and over again, many of those things aren't really relevant to our current society. When we have to go back and do history lessons to explain what this line meant, is, is this really the best use of time? Ha- maybe... I, I personally hated reading Shakespeare in high school, and then I went and saw a play, and I was like, "Oh, he's great." But he was meant to be performed [laughs] not, not read and analyzed, uh, o- you know. Let, let the, the Shakespeare majors in college read [laughs] Shakespeare. How about we give teens stuff that's really relatable? When, when I was assigned Death of a Salesman at age 16, I was like, "Really? [laughs] Come on, man." There's so many more choices now.
- AGAdam Grant
I hated Death of a Salesman until I read The Grapes of Wrath, and then I thought [laughs] Death of a Salesman was okay.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs] By comparison.
- AGAdam Grant
I'll take-
- SHShannon Hale
It's a slog. Oh my gosh.
- AGAdam Grant
I'll take... Yeah.
- SHShannon Hale
Grapes of Wrath is a slog.
- AGAdam Grant
I'll take Willy Loman over the Joes any day.
- SHShannon Hale
Yes.
- 16:31 – 22:37
Gendered reading double standards: boys discouraged from stories about girls
- AGAdam Grant
Shannon, I wanted to pick up on the, the gender theme that you mentioned a little while ago. Uh, I'm, I'm struck that, like so many other domains of life, uh, there are books about boys that everyone reads, and then there are books about girls that only girls read. And I imagine you've encountered that, given that you have a lot of female protagonists. I'd love to hear your take on that, and Joanna, yours too. Who wants to go first?
- JGJoanna Grant
Go ahead, Shannon.
- SHShannon Hale
Okay. I'll jump in. You bet. So my third book was called Princess Academy, and immediately was marketed for girls. And I didn't really question it. I, I was taken aback, but I was like, "I don't feel like there's just anything in here that a, a boy couldn't like, but okay." And then it won a Newbery Honor, which puts this shiny stamp of approval on it, and teachers started to teach it in their elementary school classes. And I started to hear the same thing over and over again from teachers, which was, "When I told the class that we were gonna read a book called Princess Academy, the girls went, 'Yay,' and the boys went, 'Boo.' And then after we read it, the boys liked it as much or even more than the girls did." And for the first time, I had this data that was showing me, oh, actually, boys are capable of liking this book. And I started to notice the many, many ways that we signal to boys that they shouldn't read stories about girls. For example, a librarian introducing me at a school visit at an assembly saying, "Girls, I'm so excited for you. You're gonna love Shannon Hale's books. Boys, I expect you to behave anyway." These little ways that we indicate there's something wrong with a boy reading books about a girl. And because reading stories is this great exercise in empathy, what we're really communicating is, "Girls, you are expected and encouraged to learn to have empathy and understanding for boys as well as girls. Boys, you are only expected to have empathy for boys, and in fact, there's something shameful-" About having empathy for girls. Uh, I, we don't only see this in reading, we see this in many, many ways throughout our culture. But as I began to speak about it, I, I received so much pushback. There really, it is so entrenched, this idea. And well, it, it comes back to the, how, you know, humans, we tend to make binary opposites and then put them into hierarchies. You know, good and bad, light and dark, male and female. And there's an inherent hierarchy in the masculine and feminine, with the masculine being superior and feminine being inferior. So it's aspirational for girls to read books about boys and learn and understand and care about them, but it's demeaning for boys to take a interest in girls and understanding them. But on the other side of it, boys who do, it's so powerful. I'll give you one quick example. A friend of mine who's an English teacher in high school, she taught Speak by Laurie Halse Anderson, which is about, uh, uh, a freshman girl who gets raped. It's, it's been read by millions of people across the country. And after reading the book, this freshman boy wrote in his paper, he said, "I'm stuck. In Speak, the girl gets raped, but she was drunk. Before I read this book, I would have said if a girl gets drunk and gets raped, then it's her fault, but now I'm not so sure. He shouldn't have done that no matter what." And that just gives me chills. So that boy is now changed by reading that book, by having empathy. He had never before in his life been asked to empathize with a girl, and now he's out living his life in the world making different choices. Maybe, is, is he noticing where, when boys are doing things that he thinks could hurt someone, is he stepping in? Is he less likely to hurt someone himself? How is he treating the girls and women in his life because he sees them as fully human? This is a powerful exercise, and I think people who try to keep... Some of it is just blind cultural ideology, right? But some of it is on purpose to keep boys from empathizing with girls, because it's going to upset power dynamics if boys really did care. And I think also that there's, there is a homophobia underneath it, a fear that if a boy empathizes with and relates with a girl, that it will turn him gay. To speak very frankly, I really think this is a deep fear that a lot of people have. So when I speak about this, I, I want to just encourage people to, it's not like we have to shove books at boys that are about girls, but if we just change the way we talk, if we just through our manner don't indicate that there's something wrong with a boy if he has empathy for a girl or reads a story about a girl, if when we're recommending books to a boy, one of them happens to have a female character writ- and it's written by a woman, even these little changes, uh, can make a big, uh, profound difference.
- JGJoanna Grant
I, I feel like my curriculum has been pretty balanced, which is great, and I'm so happy about it, but, uh, there's definitely a little bit of an imbalance where most of the books we read are about boys. And if it is about a girl, like you said, s- something terrible is happening to her and she can't do anything about it, but if it's about a boy, then he's the one who's preventing all the terrible things from happening and, you know, whatever with that. So I, that, that impact really resonated with me, and I think, I think that definitely needs to happen elsewhere.
- AGAdam Grant
Wait, Joanna, [laughs] what you just said, there's some recent research on it. Did you read the studies or did you just figure this out yourself?
- JGJoanna Grant
I think I figured it out myself. What are you talking about? [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Uh, I, I was actually just reading this a week or two ago. [laughs] There's a, it was a study of how male and female characters are depicted in, I think it was on TV shows, over a 60-year period, and when girls were characters, they were passive. They were being acted upon, whereas when boys were characters, they had agency. They were the ones who were in charge and making things happen. So clearly we didn't need the research, 'cause you knew. I have, I have a question that I think
- 22:37 – 28:30
Empathy changes behavior: what books can do that other media often can’t
- AGAdam Grant
picks up Shannon on where, where you just were on the homophobia piece. I think it's, first of all, it's just, it's so surprising to me given all we know about the biological origins of, you know, people's sexual preferences, and [laughs] if, if, if there's nothing that turns someone straight, they shouldn't worry about anyone being turned gay. But I think, you know, on this one, I wonder if the, if the medium matters. So I c- I know tons of boys and men who are big fans of, [laughs] of superhero movies starring female pr- protagonists. I have not seen anyone say, "Don't see Gal Gadot in Wonder Woman, because you might turn gay." I have not seen anyone say, "Don't go see ScarJo as Black Widow or Jen Garner as Elektra because you might develop a preference for boys." Is it different with books?
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah, it is, and I don't know why. But to be fair, I mean, the, the, the movie industry doesn't have a great track record. We certainly have many, many more, um, movies about men from men's points of view, and, um, e- even in the, the movies that are about women, it tends to prioritize their love stories over their, um, o- over their superpower and their personal development. That it's as though their relationship with a man is, is the most important part of them. And when you look at, say, The Avengers, there was one female character, and she was not super powered. But we are really weird about books. Like this, even just this movement, which is costing taxpayers millions and millions of dollars, these, these small groups, a small minority of people who want to ban books, and is causing s- so much heartache and grief and, and fear with librarians and teachers especially. Um, but there's not that same movement to ban the internet or TV or movies. Um, what is it about books? And I, I personally believe that it's because they are such pow- powerful tools of empathy. And what I see quite often is the majority of books that are challenged and banned are written by women and about female characters, are written and about LGBTQ characters, and are written by and about authors and characters of color. So there is a movement by some people to try to limit who their kids learn to empathize with. There is a power dynamic at play. When you can control the narrative, when you can control who gets to have stories told about them, who gets to be the hero, that has a real effect in our actual society and how things are governed and what people are gonna put up with and what they're not gonna put up with. As a high school student, have you seen books be banned in your state? Have you seen people try to interfere? How is it affecting you? I'm curious.
- JGJoanna Grant
So at my school, we read a lot of banned books, but I think... I, I totally agree. They're all, all of the banned books are either about girls or about, you know, or by girls or, you know, just anything like that, and that, that makes me very sad, and that's, I think that's very telling of society today. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
The other thing that, that jumps out at me, Shannon, is I think, you know, just to reflect back on this books versus movies distinction, one of the things that [laughs] that's always missing from a movie for me is you're an observer. You're a third party watching other characters, so you never fully embody them. You never get into their, into their heads or into their bodies. Whereas when you read a book, you feel like you are them, and I wonder if that's part of why both the empathy can be more powerful and also people are a little bit afraid of it because asking a boy to imagine himself as a girl, wow. Like, to your point, he might start to care in a different way, in a way that we only see in some deeply disappointing research showing that when men have daughters, all of a sudden h- they open their eyes to the ways that the world is unfair to girls and women and become more compassionate and caring, and as CEOs, they even pay their own female employees more, uh, when they have daughters. [laughs] And I look at that and I think, "Wait, I'm sorry, you couldn't care about your mother, your sister, your female friends, your aunt?" [laughs] Like, that's, the list is-
- SHShannon Hale
Your wife
- AGAdam Grant
... is endless. Yeah. If, if you have one. And then the other, the other layer of that that I just, I just find really disconcerting is, okay, yeah, so now you've put yourself in a girl's shoes, and then all of a sudden you're gonna be attracted to boys?
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That's [laughs] just a ridiculous leap, isn't it?
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah. No, it doesn't make any sense. But fear doesn't have to make sense, right? And there is really amazing research about what our brain does when we're reading a book, how the parts of our brains light up as though we're actually experiencing it, and it doesn't in the same way when we have these other really strong connections with other people, um, and their lives, like having personal one-on-one conversations or watching a movie about them. And so one powerful thing about books is you get to live other lives, experience other things safely. So I can read about a heroin addict and, and understand more about what that would feel like without hopefully, you know, ever touching heroin. There are many, many examples of this, and I think that, uh, but a lot of parents I think misunderstand what the purpose of books and stories are. Books are not supposed to be, "Here's what you should do." They're not a plan of, "Here's the right and wrong thing, w- way to be." They are actually just really immersive stories, and the power in those stories is there whether
- 28:30 – 30:19
Memoir, vulnerability, and the magic of being seen (the Friend series impact)
- SHShannon Hale
you agree with what the character d- did or disagree or whether you relate to the character or you don't. Um, when you see yourself in a character, then you're getting validated, and you understand yourself a little bit better. And when you don't see yourself in a character, you understand other people a little bit better. One of the most powerful experiences I've had with this with, with publishing books is I, I wrote some graphic novel memoirs, and these were really hard to write for many reasons. But one reason why is as I'm writing the first one, I mean, almost the entire time I had a voice in my head telling me, "Shut up, Shannon. No one cares that someone was mean to you in fourth grade." But I kept thinking of that adage, you know, the more specific you make a story, the more universal it becomes. And it really, the more, as we know, I mean, Brené Brown, hallelujah, the more compassion we have for ourselves, the more we can have for other people. And I had faith, I'd been writing long enough, I had faith that if I just told my story the truth of it, how it felt to me to be in third, fourth, fifth grade, how it felt to me to have trouble with friends, and be really honest and vulnerable with, with all of it and show all my ugly parts as well, that other readers could connect with it. And what I saw with this book, adults that read it and told me, "This is too much. This is too hard, and this is, this is too heavy for kids to deal with." And kids read it like, "Oh, what a relief. Finally, someone's just showing me what's actually going on." And it came out on a Tuesday, and by Friday, I was meeting kids who'd read it 20 times. I've never had that happen with a book before. I can't explain it any other way than it's m- magic. Anyway, books, beautiful. It's, it's, it's a magical, gorgeous process.
- JGJoanna Grant
Shannon, th- that was a perfect summary of everything I love about the Friend series.
- 30:19 – 32:38
Parenting without enmeshment: compassion that builds resilience
- AGAdam Grant
You mentioned Brené Brown. We had a recent conversation about, uh, what she calls enmeshment-
- SHShannon Hale
Mm-hmm
- AGAdam Grant
... which I have seen so many parents struggle with, uh, where, you know, they, they lose sight of the distance between themselves and their kids, and they start to over-identify with their kids. And, you know, every Every, you know, little insult that happens on the playground is a, a kind of a personal blow. And every, you know, imperfect grade, um, every missed opportunity to be invited to a kid's birthday party, uh, they, they take it really personally, and they feel it as if they themselves are going through it. And on the one hand, I think that's a beautiful thing because [laughs] it shows deep, deep care. On the other hand, I think it often prevents kids from building resilience because [laughs] their parents are kinda feeling the pain with them, and, uh, they're, they're too deep in it to step outside of it and say, "Okay, this is hard, but it doesn't have to define you. It doesn't have to ruin your life. Let's figure out how we're gonna move forward through it."
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah, that, that, that really resonates with me, absolutely, and I'm sure Brene Brown probably talks about the difference between having empathy and compassion for someone and being enmeshed in their feelings, that we can still be empathetic and have compassion and be present with their dismay and dishearteness without having to, like, feel the emotions and get lost in it 'cause we need to be that sturdy leader that's there for them. I mean, that's the ultimate goal. Parents, it's hard to be a parent. We're, none of us are perfect, but I think it's a worthy goal.
- JGJoanna Grant
Shannon, I have one more question for you. Will there ever be a fourth book in the Friends series?
- SHShannon Hale
Um-
- AGAdam Grant
Is that a... Wait, I'm sorry. Joanna, is that a question, or is that a-
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
... a request?
- JGJoanna Grant
Oh, it's a request.
- AGAdam Grant
Or a demand.
- JGJoanna Grant
I need, like, 50 of them.
- SHShannon Hale
Oh.
- JGJoanna Grant
So I'm waiting.
- SHShannon Hale
I do have one more book outlined about my senior year in high school. I don't know if I will ever do it. I'm not currently doing it, but it, it, there is a possibility.
- JGJoanna Grant
Okay. N- n- now this is a demand.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs]
- JGJoanna Grant
I, I will wait until the day that is published and will probably finish it in, like, an hour. [laughs]
- SHShannon Hale
Well, now that I know it's got at least one reader, I'm gonna have to do it.
- JGJoanna Grant
I can promise it has every single person who is a child right now as a reader.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs] Thank you.
- 32:38 – 37:49
Writing your story + lightning round: journals, bad art, snacks, and constant rethinking
- AGAdam Grant
Shannon, what advice do you have for someone who wants to write their story?
- SHShannon Hale
Because we're speaking of, about memoir, I would recommend everyone keep a journal. You'll never be sorry that you kept a journal. But also, I wouldn't be in a rush to try and publish something, especially if it's memoir and it's real. I think having years of, of growing up and having per- some perspective and distance from it i- is really wise. And then just, like, f- for, for reading, if you do it for fun, you're more likely to do it, and writing for fun is delightful. I, my kids are writing fan fiction of Doctor Who lately. I could not love it more. Uh, it's just a great way to play around with words. And right now, when AI is stealing creativity from growing brains, uh, more than ever, like, giving people a place and support to create for fun and do it badly and make bad art all of their own so their brain keeps developing and it has the ability to one day make the kind of art they really wanna make, encouraging that is so great. Make bad art is one of the best things I think you can tell anybody. So finding a way to take joy in the process and how it changes you, um, is, that's my personal ideal, and that's why I think I've been able to write as much as I have because I love the process.
- AGAdam Grant
Well, as long as you don't try to publish your splatter paint, I'm all in.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs] I will, I promise I will not. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
All right, let's go to a lightning round.
- SHShannon Hale
Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Are you ready?
- SHShannon Hale
Yes.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. What is the worst writing advice you've ever gotten?
- SHShannon Hale
Only write what you know. I mean, writing is a, is a, is discovery. So if I s- if I only set out to write what I know, then I cannot discover anything, and then it becomes pedantic and like, "Let me tell you everything I know." That's not a good story.
- AGAdam Grant
What's your favorite writing tip that we haven't heard yet?
- SHShannon Hale
Um, snacks. Choose your snacks carefully, and use them as rewards.
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs]
- SHShannon Hale
You are a dog [laughs] learning to sit and heel. When you finish this page, you get a cracker.
- AGAdam Grant
That is not where I thought you were going. What, what's your best writing advice? Snacks.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
Eat snacks instead of writing.
- SHShannon Hale
[laughs] I was trying to think of something-
- AGAdam Grant
Where, where could this possibly be going?
- SHShannon Hale
... you might not have heard before. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
I love it.
- JGJoanna Grant
May I ask, are you a froyo fan? That's my favorite anything reward.
- SHShannon Hale
Oh. That, I'm currently off sugar, so that makes me really boring. Like, my, my, my writing snack yesterday that was my reward was almond crackers with cream cheese. Is that so sad? [laughs] Is that pathetic? Adam's like, "Yeah."
- AGAdam Grant
No comment.
- SHShannon Hale
Yeah, it is kinda is. [laughs]
- JGJoanna Grant
Who are your dream at dinner party guests?
- SHShannon Hale
I mean, Jane Austen. I'm wr- currently working on my third book inspired by, by her books, and having just read her a lot and just would love to sit down and get to know her. She, I think she would be hilarious. Um, I love comedians.
- AGAdam Grant
Who would you pick?
- SHShannon Hale
Oh my gosh, um, so many. Uh, Kumail Nanjiani, John Mulaney, and, uh, Nate Bargatze.
- AGAdam Grant
That's a great list. Okay, Shannon, what is something you've rethought or changed your mind about lately?
Episode duration: 37:50
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