Pinterest's CEO Bill Ready on making social media safe for Gen Z | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 0:41

   Rewiring the feed: using conscious signals to surface healthier content

   1. BRBill Ready0:00

      One of the ways that we went after tuning AI for positivity was to say, "What are the things that you explicitly said you wanted to see again? What did you save? What did you click on? What did you engage with in some way that was part of conscious thought?" And as soon as we started tuning for that, totally different content rose to the top. Instead of being triggering content, it was self-help videos, and DIY, and things that would actually get you engaging in the real world versus just being glued to a screen. And when you measure how people feel after that time spent, they feel better, because users were actually pretty good at wanting more of the things that were good for them. [upbeat music]

2. 0:41 – 3:49

   Why 'engagement via enragement' became the default social media model

   1. AGAdam Grant0:41

      What's your issue with engagement via enragement? 'Cause you kind of stand out among your peers on that front.

   2. BRBill Ready0:47

      Yeah. Well, thank you for that, and I think that's, you know, when I came in as CEO of Pinterest, uh, almost three years ago, as one of the biggest opportunities I saw was to try to prove that there could be a more positive business model in social media, and that it didn't have to be just engagement via enragement. I think that social media deeply has that as sort of core to the business model, and has that for more than a decade. And I think that, you know, we see the harms all around us of what has happened with that. I think nowhere more than with our young people, where you look at the rising rates of anxiety and depression amongst young people. And, you know, I think at the core of that is that, you know, social media uses AI to maximize your view time, and it figures out pretty quickly that you look longer at the things that are your triggers, whatever your triggers are. And so, you know, whether it's that politician that gets you really fired up or whether it's somebody else's fake perfect life that you can't possibly live up to, it figures out how to show you those things to maximize your view time. You know, this, this sort of really happened around 2014, 2015 or so, I'd say, where social media switched from a chronological feed of what your friends posted to what an algorithm thought you should see, and that's when it started to become more and more negative.

   3. AGAdam Grant1:55

      We're much better at diagnosing the problem than we are at solving it, which is, I think, where you come in. Um, so what does tuning for positivity actually look like on Pinterest?

   4. BRBill Ready2:04

      Uh, the analogy I always use is, you know, we've all had the ex- the, the, the example of sitting in a, in a traffic jam, and we know when we get to the front of the traffic jam, we shouldn't look at the car crash, right? But what do we all do? We get to the front and we're like, "I sat here for 45 minutes. I wanna know what happened." We sneak a peek at the car crash. And these algorithms learn, "Oh, you looked at the car crash. I'll show you another car crash. Oh, you looked at that one, too. I'll show you another one," until eventually it's all car crashes, and that's sort of the world that we're living in right now with social media. And so part of tuning the AI for positivity was, well, what if instead of tuning for this sort of, you know, instinctual reaction, this sort of downstairs brain reaction, what if we appealed to conscious thought? You know, in, in that same analogy, if you ask someone after the car crash, "Would you like to see another one of those?" The vast majority of people say, "No, that was terrible. I don't wanna see another one of those." But users aren't getting that choice. It's just, if you looked at it, you're gonna see more of it. One of the ways that we went after tuning AI for positivity was to say, "What are the things that you explicitly said you wanted to see again? What did you save? What did you click on? What did you engage with in some way that was part of conscious thought?" And as soon as we started tuning for that, totally different content rose to the top. Instead of being triggering content, it was self-help videos, and DIY, and things that would actually get you engaging in the real world versus just being glued to a screen. And when you measure how people feel after that time spent, they feel better, because users were actually pretty good at wanting more of the things that were good for them. When you appeal to their downstairs brain, people weren't very good at, like, "Oh, yeah, we still, we still look at the car crash every time we get to the front of the traffic jam." But if you ask us, we'll make a healthier choice. And so there's a lot more to do, but it's proven out to be quite effective.

3. 3:49 – 4:30

   System 1 vs System 2: designing for 'time well spent'

   1. AGAdam Grant3:49

      So another way of describing what you've done is you've basically said, "Look, instead of appealing to system one," [laughs] like the hot, visceral impulse to look at the things that you may not enjoy but that immediately capture your attention, you're gonna engage with system two. Find out what people value as opposed to just [laughs] what, what, um, what activates their, you know, their immediate emotions.

   2. BRBill Ready4:12

      That's right.

   3. AGAdam Grant4:13

      Um, and then the hope is that they'll come back for better reasons, and even if they spend less time on the platform, they're gonna enjoy it more, or-

   4. BRBill Ready4:21

      That, that's right

   5. AGAdam Grant4:21

      ... they're gonna feel like it was more worthwhile.

   6. BRBill Ready4:23

      That, that's right. And so we're going after time well spent instead of time spent. And so, you know-

   7. AGAdam Grant4:28

      Oh, that's a great distinction.

4. 4:30 – 7:07

   Gen Z growth and a bold safety bet: private-only accounts for under 16

   1. BRBill Ready4:30

      Yeah. And so if we help you go do something in the real world, you know, help you put together that outfit that's gonna make you walk a little taller, uh, for the event that you're going to, or help you put together a great meal to s- sort of host your friends, that's not gonna keep you glued to a screen, but you're gonna have a really great experience and say, "Oh, well, Pinterest is a great place for me to go for another one of those." And so we wanna be part of a healthier social media diet. And I think actually with Gen Z, Gen Z's now more than 40% of our users. It's our largest, fastest-growing-

   2. AGAdam Grant5:00

      Wow

   3. BRBill Ready5:00

      ... demographic, and that is in spite of us having done things that actually turn social features off for a lot of those users. So if I go deeper into other things that we have done, you know, we're the only social media platform that is private-only for users under 16. And when I say private-only, it's not a feature you can re-enable, and I just felt like it was clear to me that it wasn't safe for users under 16 to be contacted by strangers online. And I also thought that not only was that a right thing to do, I was hopeful that there would be real consumer demand for a safer space. And when we made that change, you know, our stock price actually dropped by, like, 20% when we did that, 'cause people thought it was just gonna wreck us with young users. Um, and, you know, a year later, we'd nearly doubled, and it actually became one of the defining reasons that we are winning with young users, is that, you know, while there's all this talk of how Gen Z is struggling with rising rates of anxiety and depression, I think they're more in tune than ever with the fact that social media isn't good for them. In fact, 48%, you know, Pew Research, uh, that came out, said 48% of, of Gen Z knows that social media isn't good for them. But they can't necessarily quit it, um, you know, because it's become, you know, sort of a, a collective action problem, where their friends are there, so they have to be there. But they are, and this was my hope, that they do wanna find ways to make healthier choices. So, as we gave them an option for healthier choices, like, "Oh, here's a private space, um, where you can, you know, figure out, you know, who you wanna be, that's not comparative and performative," that actually really resonated with users. And so we're starting to tap into sort of some of these other things that we started with, how do we tune the AI for positivity? How do we, you know, optimize more for intentional choices, that users will figure out more what's good for them? And then also addressing some of these things like the comparative, performative nature of social media that has led to a lot of unhealthy behaviors. Say, "Okay, well, let's go do something different than that. Let's go give users a space to figure themselves out, um, that can be sort of a space away from the noise to figure out who they wanna be," and that's really, really resonated.

5. 7:07 – 8:20

   From company policy to industry change: collaborating with researchers and a 'safety race'

   1. AGAdam Grant7:07

      So you must be Jon Haidt's dream CEO, then.

   2. BRBill Ready7:10

      Um, but yes, I collaborate with, with Jon quite a bit, as well as many other researchers in the space, um, because, you know, we're hopeful that not only can we make these changes for Pinterest, you know, I'd like to see this industry change. And this had already become central to our reason for being when I came in as CEO, uh, three years ago. This is one of the key things I thought it was part of the opportunity. You know, I'm, uh, I've, I've got a, a young daughter. Uh, she's 11 years old. You know, I'm terrified of the day that she's old enough to be on social media, so it's personal. I wanna fix this for her as well as everybody else's young people. You know, I'd love to see a world where social media companies were competing on their safety records the same way that auto manufacturers now compete on theirs.

   3. AGAdam Grant7:50

      I would love that. Um, and I wanna, I wanna understand better why the industry has been so slow to sh- to change, given that [laughs] the consternation and, frankly, the outrage at the outrage machine-

   4. BRBill Ready8:01

      Yeah

   5. AGAdam Grant8:02

      ... [laughs] is, is palpable at this point. Let me give you, you know, a specific example that, that really surprised me, and, like, I just cannot fathom why a CEO wouldn't change that, especially for, for kids. Um, can you help me understand, [laughs] like, what is going on here? Why are, why are other CEOs not taking action?

6. 8:20 – 10:39

   Why other CEOs haven’t changed: addiction design, locked-in incentives, and the seat belt analogy

   1. BRBill Ready8:20

      You know, I don't know that all of these sort of negative externalities were clear in the beginning for these companies, right? You know, rewind the clock, you know, 10 years, and the public discourse was, "Social media's helping us know our neighbors better, helping us, you know, reconnect with long-lost friends, and helping democracies rise up," and all these things, and then it really, really shifted. So I think there was a move to design for addictive behaviors. You know, there were classes at Stanford that, you know, taught how to trigger dopamine releases through product design. Um, and so, you know, I think that some of these things were unintended consequences, and by the time people realized it, there were so many billions of dollars locked into the business model that it was hard for people to change. I think we're past the point of being able to say for some of these platforms, "It's an undent- unintended consequence." You know, when you talk about things like, you know, ranking you amongst your friend groups or those kinds of things, like, that's directly trying to monetize teen anxiety. And, you know, what gives me hope is that, you know, these, when you have these sort of business models set in, it can be really hard to change them, but change can happen. It's not that long ago that you had major auto manufacturers saying that seat belts were against the business model. Now, that sounds absurd to say now.

   2. AGAdam Grant9:39

      It's crazy.

   3. BRBill Ready9:39

      But that was a huge, huge public debate 45, 50 years ago, and two things happened. You know, the one thing was that you did have some thoughtful legislation that, you know, brought, you know, sort of mandated seat belts, but also things like crash test ratings. So you had a standard then that people could measure against. Simultaneously, you had some auto manufacturers start to build brands around safety. Um, you know, Volvo goes and creates the three-point safety belt and builds a whole brand around the safety of their cars. And fast-forward a couple decades, and you go from the industry saying seat belts are against the business model to every major auto manufacturer competing on their safety record because, as a consumer, you don't wanna just put your family in the car that meets the safety standard or the crash test rating. You wanna put your family in the car that beats it by the most, and so now they compete on that. So that's where I have hope that if we can start to, one, demonstrate that it's possible through a

7. 10:39 – 11:45

   A path forward: baseline regulation plus measurable wellbeing standards

   1. BRBill Ready10:39

      free market, uh, solution, that as we provide a more positive alternative, consumers will choose that. We've also advocated for thoughtful regulation around these things because I do think, you know, I'm a capitalist, but I do think this is an example of a market failure, where you have a race to the bottom happening, and you probably do need a thoughtful baseline. And in the same way that you don't have regulation dictating every sensor and airbag that's in a car now, you don't need regulation that goes down to that level. But can you create a common standard that measures, say, impact on emotional well-being, and then let all of us be held accountable to that and then compete on that? I think it's possible.

   2. AGAdam Grant11:21

      I love that vision. So are you saying that Pinterest is gonna be the Volvo of social media?

   3. BRBill Ready11:26

      I would take that. You know, I think this is one of the most important issues of our time, right? And so what I'm hoping we can do is not just build a big business, but actually create a movement around this. You know, I'd love it if 20 or 30 years from now, you know, I can look back and say, yeah, as a, not just as a CEO, but as a, as a dad, uh, as a human, that we, we made a dent in that problem.

8. 11:45 – 12:45

   What 'positivity' looks like in product: diversity by default and inclusive discovery

   1. AGAdam Grant11:45

      So I wanna get a clearer picture of what tuning for positivity actually looks like.

   2. BRBill Ready11:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant11:49

      Do you have favorite examples of, well, I guess of how that's played out on Pinterest of late?

   4. BRBill Ready11:54

      Yes. So I'll give you a few more. So for example, we, you know, do diversity by default in our feeds. We, we do body type ranges. We do skin tone ranges, uh, you know, uh, hair pattern, uh, searches, things like that. So, you know, fashion and beauty and things like that are big on our platform, but when we started showing more what the average person looks like instead of what the average fashion model looks like, that was actually- Good for user engagement. And they can actually choose a body type range and say, "Well, hey, this is, this is my body type. Show me more things and more people so I can get a sense for what this might look like on me." We serve 570 million-plus users around the world. They come from all different backgrounds, all different walks of life, and so them being able to see things are more tailored to them, you know, it's a great experience, it's the right thing to do, and it's good for business. It's, it's doing well by doing good.

9. 12:45 – 13:30

   Welcoming worthy competitors: why Pinterest wants others to follow

   1. AGAdam Grant12:45

      You said something surprising a minute ago. You said you hope other companies will follow your lead. Isn't that bad for business? If, if this is effective, isn't it a differentiation strategy, and aren't you hoping that other social media companies will continue to enrage people?

   2. BRBill Ready13:01

      There are few gifts better than a worthy competitor. I would love to see somebody step up and compete with us on how to do more for positivity 'cause, like, it will actually push us to up our game. You know, you look at this in athletics, you know. How important was it for Larry Bird and Magic Johnson to each have each other to push them harder? Like, I'd love to see others, you know, come along and do the same thing, one, because I wanna see this become something that changes industry-wide. I want us to do more good, uh, and, and I think that would help us to up our game.

10. 13:30 – 16:38

    Phone-free schools: evidence, collective action anxiety, and what changes once bans start

    1. AGAdam Grant13:30

       Spoken like a capitalist. Let's talk a little bit about social media and phones in schools. My read of the evidence is this is, this is a net positive to get phones out of schools.

    2. BRBill Ready13:41

       Absolutely.

    3. AGAdam Grant13:42

       Um, one of my favorite studies I saw recently was, uh, Sara Abrahamsen, who studied over 400 middle schools in Norway, where after smartphone bans, um, bullying went down-

    4. BRBill Ready13:53

       Mm-hmm

    5. AGAdam Grant13:53

       ... uh, for both boys and girls. And also, girls had better grades and fewer mental health problems. It doesn't get more clear-cut than that, right? [laughs] If we get smartphones out of schools, kids-

    6. BRBill Ready14:04

       Agreed

    7. AGAdam Grant14:04

       ... learn more, and wellbeing and relationships improve. So what are we waiting for? Why has this been so hard, especially when in the US the majority of parents think that this is a good idea?

    8. BRBill Ready14:15

       Well, I, I think that fortunately this is a nonpartisan issue. It's got support on both sides of the aisle. And you, you look at states like Arkansas that, you know, went to phone-free schools, and they're seeing similar outcomes, right? So it's not just in, you know, other countries. It's happening here in the US. Arkansas is a great example, but you know, I've talked to governors of Arkansas and Kentucky, California, New York, uh, Florida, Virginia, and as these things are progressing, you hear consistently these improved outcomes. My daughter's own school finally went phone-free. Um, for a little while there it was like, you know, it's like, hey, I'm advocating for this, uh, you know, very publicly and, like, you know, how do I make sure my own daughter's school gets there? And there's a lot of anxiety before making that change, right? Because it's a collective action problem, you know, people have a fear of missing out, and so that makes it sort of a very v- sort of high anxiety decision to let go of that phone. And they've become addictive, right? So it's, it's high anxiety to let go of it. And so if you talk to, you know, any of the schools that have implemented this, they'll say they went through this sort of wave of, like, high anxiety, a lot of debate to actually get it in place, both from parents, from students, from teachers. You know, the teachers don't wanna have to wrestle with the students. The parents, you know, don't wanna have to wrestle with the kids. The kids are worried about, you know, letting go of their device that has become addictive. But once you get through that anxiety and cross that chasm, on the other side of it, very quickly all those constituents feel better. And you know, at, at our own school, uh, when this was implemented, uh, one of the things that you heard the teachers talk about, they're like, "It sounds like a school again." Because when the kids are in between classes, like, they're talking to each other. They're interacting with one another instead of, like, the bell rings, and they're looking at their phone, and they're probably te- you know, texting or chatting with the person right next to them and doing it on their device. Now they're talking to each other again, and it sounds like a school. You hear the sounds of childhood again. And so, so I think the benefit on the other side is, like, massively clear, and I think that's why there is growing momentum around this, and there's starting to become really good blueprints for how to do this, how to address the, the concerns that people have, how to cross that chasm of anxiety. And you know, every single example where this happens and you get that benefit I think is another sort of great bit of momentum in, in, in that movement, which I th- I think is, is, uh, gaining momentum, and, uh, but there's a lot more to go.

11. 16:38 – 18:28

    Addressing the top parent fear: school shootings and phone access

    1. AGAdam Grant16:38

       Yeah, I think so too. I remember when I posted some of the evidence on the benefits of phone bans. The most common concern raised by parents was, "But what if there's a school shooting?"

    2. BRBill Ready16:48

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AGAdam Grant16:49

       I was like, first of all, you do not need a smartphone in that circumstance, right? You can have a dumb phone and still reach them. But secondly, if your kid is in danger on campus because there's a school shooting, you are not gonna be able to get to campus. I have not found a single example of a smartphone saving a kid during a situation like that. There are just devastating, tragic examples of a kid's smartphone going off when they're hiding from a shooter and that alerting the shooter to their location. So if anything, like, this is peace of mind for parents that doesn't actually keep kids safe as far as I can tell.

    4. BRBill Ready17:23

       Yeah, I think, you know, first of all, it's horrific and tragic that students and parents have to worry about, you know, those kinds of things. And if you talk to school safety experts, one of the things that they will say, exactly to your point, is that if they're in a situation where there's a, where there's an active shooter, you don't want that kid being distracted by incoming calls or things like that. You want them focused and paying attention to what school leaders are telling them to do to get them to safety as quickly as possible and not being distracted by that phone. And you know, as a parent myself, like, it's, it's horrifying to even think of that situation, and of course you wanna know as fast as possible that your kid's okay. But knowing as fast as possible is different than actually what is the safest, best thing for them. As this movement has gained steam- I think there's been, you know, a lot of good debate and discourse, and then there's really good answers to what have been, you know, the biggest concerns and objectin- objections, safety being one of those, um, where it's actually safer for the, for the, the, the student to be following the instructions from, you know, sc- school leaders in that situation.

12. 18:28 – 20:30

    Pinterest’s school-hours nudge and the Inspired Internet Pledge

    1. AGAdam Grant18:28

       That makes a lot of sense. And I understand you're actually testing a new prompt to get kids off of Pinterest during school hours.

    2. BRBill Ready18:35

       That's right. I believe in free market solutions. I also believe that, you know, you may need some thoughtful regulation in these places to support that. But we're not sitting around waiting for that. So, you know, um, as much as I've advocated for phone-free schools, I've also said like, "Well, what can we do? How can we help this?"

    3. AGAdam Grant18:50

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BRBill Ready18:50

       One of the things that we've done is, you know, when a user opens Pinterest, if they're under 18, they open Pinterest during school hours, we will give them a prompt that says, "Hey, we love you. Come see us after school." Um, and beyond that, we'll actually give them a link to turn off all the notifications on their device because it's, again, it's not just us, it's, you know, we turn off ours, but then they're still getting tons of notifications from everybody else who's messaging them and all these things. They can't focus. What we've seen is that there's real benefit into taking a long view of investing in the health and wellbeing of our users. And so that's a good example of like, yep, there's a little bit of a leap of faith, that if we do the right thing now, that'll actually be good for us in the long term. You know, we're proving a real business on, again, on time well spent instead of maximizing the total time spent.

    5. AGAdam Grant19:39

       Wow. That sounds like, like a coded version of, "Hey Mark, hey Evan, come at me."

    6. BRBill Ready19:44

       And, you know, to this point of wanting to, uh, change the industry, you know, we created a thing called the Inspired Internet Pledge, and we did that in collaboration with Boston Children's Hospital on the Digital Wellness Lab there. We're committing to consistently measure our impact on emotional wellbeing of our users, committing to improve over time, and publish our results. Basically telling people like, "Here's what we did that worked," in hopes that other people will follow. We're still the only social media company that does private only for under 16, where you can't turn it back off. But we have seen since then, other companies have started to give more controls for choosing a more private experience, things like that, and I think they've not gone as far, but it's progress, and we welcome that progress. A- again, I, as a, as a dad, as a citizen, like, I wanna see that progress across the industry.

13. 20:30 – 23:48

    Lightning round + changing minds: building movements and overcoming resignation

    1. AGAdam Grant20:30

       Yep. All right. Let's go to a lightning round. Best career advice you've ever gotten.

    2. BRBill Ready20:35

       So it came in the form of a rhetorical question. An early mentor asked me, "Hey Bill, with whom do you build your army? Do you want the conscripted? Do you want mercenaries? Or do you want freedom fighters?" And instinctually for me, the answer was freedom fighters. Um, but, you know, he said to me like, "Well, hey Bill, not everybody chooses that. Uh, you should know, um, the freedom fighters will give you more than anybody else, but your mission better be real. They will call you on your bullshit in a second if it's not real. Um, and so if you wanna have freedom fighters, you better have a real mission and you better walk the walk. Um, but if you do that, they'll give you more than anybody."

    3. AGAdam Grant21:09

       Love that. That's powerful. All right. Who are, who are your dream dinner guests?

    4. BRBill Ready21:14

       I think we're in a moment in AI where there's been a lot of comparisons to nuclear. Talking to, like, a Robert Oppenheimer or somebody that was early there and sort of thinking through, like, hey, here's this thing that's amazing technology. How do you think through ways it could be world-changing or sort of, you know, potentially harmful? You know, I think that would be a super interesting conversation to have, and I think is appropriate for this moment in time with what we're thinking about with AI and tremendous upside, but also, you know, potential tremendous downside as well.

    5. AGAdam Grant21:41

       Well said. All right, what's the question you have for me?

    6. BRBill Ready21:44

       Yeah, I talked about how we're trying to create a movement around this. And one of the things I see happening is simultaneously, I think there's hope that change is possible, but I also see acceptance, that there's a lot of people out there that think, you know, the negativity of social media, well, it's just the way it is. And so I'd love your take as an organizational psychologist as to how do you get people past that antipathy and sort of getting them to see, like, you don't have to accept this, and, and trying to sort of change that viewpoint to, to turn that into more of a movement.

    7. AGAdam Grant22:16

       I mean, this, this was the central question of Think Again, is what does it take to change our own minds, and how can we invite other people to do the same? First of all, my, my biggest takeaway around opening other people's minds was that listening is more persuasive than talking. When people are resistant to change, when they're, when they've really dug their heels in, um, you're better off, you know, trying to understand their hesitations and, you know, engaging in what psychologists call a motivational interview, uh, to try to help them uncover their own reasons for change. And hands down, the most influential version of that that I've ever done is just asking, "What evidence would change your mind?"

    8. BRBill Ready22:54

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AGAdam Grant22:55

       I would, I would sit down with, you know, whether it's a social media CEO, um, or a policymaker or, you know, a school leader, and just ask them, [chuckles] "What, what proof would you have to see to persuade you that we need to shift the way that we're, you know, running these, these businesses," or, "We need to change our policies," or, "We shouldn't stick to the way we've always done it and just, you know, let kids run wild with phones and social media." And then they'll walk through the evidence that they find compelling, and then you can start to introduce them to data and, um, and, you know, real, real cases that are happening, like [chuckles] live case studies that are underway right now that meet their terms, as opposed to trying to shove [chuckles] the, the data that you find compelling down their throat.

    10. BRBill Ready23:41

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AGAdam Grant23:42

        That's, that's where I would begin.

    12. BRBill Ready23:44

        Yeah. It's a great insight.

    13. AGAdam Grant23:45

        Try it at your own risk.

    14. BRBill Ready23:46

        [laughs] Super helpful.

14. 23:48 – 32:48

    DEI under attack: meritocracy, resilience, and lessons from a Kentucky auto shop

    1. AGAdam Grant23:48

       Let's talk a little bit about leadership before we wrap today. So DEI is under attack. I've had some concerns that we're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And I think from things I've heard you say in the past, you share those concerns.

    2. BRBill Ready24:04

       Yes.

    3. AGAdam Grant24:04

       Uh, you know, of course you don't want to engage in reverse discrimination at Pinterest, uh, from a hiring standpoint, but you still wanna give opportunities to people who have been historically denied them.

    4. BRBill Ready24:14

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AGAdam Grant24:15

       Um, of course you don't wanna favor any one group, but you also wanna work really hard to include people who, you know, who might feel marginalized. Um, so what is, what does that landscape look like inside Pinterest today?

    6. BRBill Ready24:26

       Yeah. So a couple things I say. First of all is that, you know, advancing diversity and inclusion is not in conflict with meritocracy. In fact, quite the opposite. You know, there's eight billion people in this world. Great talent comes from all different backgrounds, all different walks of life. And so, you know, we're in a hyper-competitive space. And I would say with Pinterest specifically, we've seen, you know, i- in the nearly three years I've been CEO, we've objectively become much more inclusive and much more diverse. More than half my executive team is women. Our director-plus population, which are the, the, the senior managers in the company, 52% women. But I think we've built one of the most diverse teams in tech by every objective measure. And simultaneously, we've created a revival of the platform and, you know, have outperformed others in our space over that time period. And, you know, I think our focus on inclusion, you know, and belonging, you know, has given us, you know, an unfair share of great talent because we're focusing on making sure that people from every different background and walk of life, you know, can come here and be successful, um, and that, you know, they're gonna be able to thrive here. And I think that's actually, you know, contributing to our results. So a- again, I think this, this debate that has been happening out there of like, "Oh, well, are you gonna have meritocracy or are you gonna have diversity and inclusion?" It's like, nope. A meritocracy done properly must be diverse and inclusive because talent comes from all different backgrounds, and inclusion and diversity done properly are gonna be enhancing of a meritocracy 'cause you're gonna find more talent from more different places, and I think that's just been lost in the debate. It's actually good for business. And, you know, one other personal anecdote I'd share with this, I was the first in my family to go to college. Uh, I needed Pell Grants, you know, to go to college. Pell Grants, if you're not familiar with those, it's for, you know, students that are below the poverty line. And had it not been for things like, you know, being able to receive scholarships, being able to receive Pell Grants, I might not have ever been able to go to college. And getting to Silicon Valley, um, and building things for billions of users, like might as well have been the other side of the universe. So I think we need to continue investing in looking for talent from all different backgrounds and looking to find ways to help talent succeed, um, that may not have had all the same sort of pathways that, that others may have, and you may get some really surprising and positive outcomes from that. And I've seen that in my own life. I've seen that in many people that I've worked with as well.

    7. AGAdam Grant26:56

       Yeah, that, that really resonates. So two things that it surfaces for me. First of all, your comments about, like, the rationale for diversity and inclusion, um, they, they track with some classic research by Ely and Thomas where they basically found there are three reasons, um, that leaders gave, uh, for adopting these kinds of initiatives. Uh, there was, you know, promoting fairness and preventing discrimination. There was access and legitimacy, which is, you know, hey, look at our user base. [laughs] We've gotta represent them.

    8. BRBill Ready27:22

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AGAdam Grant27:23

       And then there was integration and learning, which is where you started. Um, you know, there are people with all kinds of different backgrounds, um, that can teach us things. And the argument there was that all of these perspectives can convince people to adopt, you know, diversity and inclusion initiatives. Um, and in fact, depending on your audience, [laughs] you might, you might have more success with one argument than another. But ultimately, you have to believe in the integration and learning message in order to leverage the benefits of diversity. If you don't think... Y- like, if you think you're, you're just bringing people in because it's the right thing to do, or you're just bringing them in because you need to represent your user or customer base, um, you're not gonna learn as much from their novel perspectives. You're not gonna leverage their diversity of thought. Um, you're not gonna have your assumptions challenged and surface the kinds of debates that actually challenge your thinking. So I think, uh, I think you're onto something here.

    10. BRBill Ready28:16

        Yeah. And, and, and again, I, I'm hoping we can prove that, you know, um, there's really good business in it, right? You know, a specific thing that we've done is that, you know, one of the things that we hire for is resilience, right? You know, as an entrepreneur, as a business builder, I think resilience is one of the biggest predictors of success, you know, for employees, you know, that we hire, and I added that to our hiring criteria when I came in. Well, if you think about resilience, where does that come from? It's gonna come from a lot of non-traditional places. You know, you look at Silicon Valley and, and, and sort of, you know, uh, amongst entrepreneurs, immigrants are, are disproportionately represented amongst successful entrepreneurs. Well, why is that? They went through tremendous adversity to make their way to this country. Uh, you hear these stories of, you know, coming over with, you know, $20 in their pocket and, you know, but then finding a way, you know, to go do something. You know, I think that resilience is a huge predictor, and if you, if you, if you're willing to sort of think a little bit differently about how might people build resilience, you're gonna find that, like, oh, yeah, not only do you get diversity of thought, you're gonna get diversity of background. And look for those ways that people, you know, found their way through despite the obstacles. Boy, those are the people, you know, the sort of the underdog kind of mentality, those are the people I want on the team 'cause they're gonna find their way through. Simultaneously, you also wanna acknowledge, like, might there be way... might there be things you need to do to help them get through also? Like the example of like, okay, you know, I think I had to demonstrate s- you know, a good bit of resilience to get from where I started to where I am now, but I needed some of those things like Pell Grants that were gonna help me be able to afford college. I still worked two or three jobs at a time to put myself through school, but boy, you know, I, I don't know if I could've done a fourth job if I hadn't had the Pell Grants to help me. So you need to be thinking about those kinds of things, too.

    11. AGAdam Grant30:03

        Yeah. This, this is why whenever I hire, I don't just wanna know what have you achieved, I also wanna know what have you overcome.

    12. BRBill Ready30:10

        Absolutely right.

    13. AGAdam Grant30:11

        Okay, so last question. You, you had this formative experience of working as a, a mechanic in-

    14. BRBill Ready30:18

        That's right

    15. AGAdam Grant30:18

        ... his dad's auto body shop.

    16. BRBill Ready30:20

        Yep.

    17. AGAdam Grant30:20

        How old... Were you 13 when you started?

    18. BRBill Ready30:22

        Yeah. Um, well, it, so it was an au-

    19. AGAdam Grant30:24

        Is that even legal?

    20. BRBill Ready30:25

        It was an auto repair shop. And w- and what I would say is, like, 13 is when I got to start working in the front of the shop. Um, before that, uh, even in Kentucky, uh, 13, uh, below 13 was sort of frowned upon, so I sort of worked in the back of the shop before that. [laughs] Um, but you know, it was a great formative experience. Some of the best lessons that have helped me in Silicon Valley, you know, I got in a little town in Kentucky because, like, oh, I had to face customers in the eye. I remember I was about 13 years old, is a farm community, and so I'd messed up on a farmer's truck. And I'm thinking my parents are gonna go explain to him, you know, um, you know, what happened, and they both said to me, "No, you go tell him what you did and what you're gonna do to make it right." And if you're imagining, like, a Norman Rockwell painting here of like, oh, the farmer, like, pats me on the head and says, "Oh, son, it's all okay," no, he needed that truck for his livelihood to feed his family. Um, and, and so he, he wasn't happy about it. And I remember, you know, knees knocking, lump in my throat, having to explain to him, you know, what I did and, like, a- and, and sort of when him tell- uh, you know, him telling me what it meant to him and his family, and it's like, "Okay, boy," 'cause I'd made a careless mistake. I sure as thought twice the next time because, like, oh, it had a real impact on somebody's life. Well, all these things we talked about of how I think about what we do for users on our platform, I see all of them looking back at me the same as I did with that farmer and his truck, and I still get a bit of that lump in my throat, knees knocking, um, but I wanna make sure I'm doing everything I can to do what's right by them. But some of the best lessons were, you know, in that little town in Kentucky working in a little auto repair shop.

    21. AGAdam Grant31:54

        Wow. I think there are gonna be a lot of people who listen to this conversation and think, "Maybe tech CEOs aren't as bad as I thought."

    22. BRBill Ready32:02

        Um, we are all fallible people. Um, we're each fallible in our own ways. And, you know, while I think you can look at some disappointing decisions by some leaders, I think you also see a growing movement of people that wanna do the right thing has, has been part of how we've picked up a lot of great talent. I also think it's really important to win the right way and to think about the unintended consequences. There are still people in the Valley that really wanna change the world for the better, and we don't always get it right, um, but I think there are a lot of people that, like, that is what, what drives them. And, and, uh, that gives me hope.

    23. AGAdam Grant32:33

        Well, I am delighted that you're one of them. It gives me hope, too, for social media. Bill, I, I thank you.

    24. BRBill Ready32:40

        All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 33:02